PF-Flyer, you make some good points, and I think things are going to get worse, at least economically, before they get better. Lucky for us that the Corporatists eventually eat their own tails, as we are seeing now with the intel community and the military openly criticizing Bush. As Wall Street crashes (in progress), Junior's friends there will turn on him with the long knives out (there is no honor among thieves, after all). With the Internet and other forms of communication available today, it's harder for the neo-fascists to impose a regime than it was in the 20s and 30s, particularly when Main Street is suffering financially, as it is these days. The neocon window of opportunity -- 2001 to 2003 -- for cracking down has closed, I think.

As we've seen in the past few years, the MSM was almost solidly in Bush's corner, yet he's still the most unpopular president in history, and Iraq an equally unpopular war, as America has gradually awakened to the fraud in their midst.

Right, Kem, and I saw a surreal newscast the other night where the host was asking a panel of 'experts' for their opinion of whether waterboarding constituted torture. It's a shame News Anchor College doesn't teach history, starting with Torquemada and the Inquisition. (Yes, I know, they think the Inquisition is a list of questions for Paris Hilton, and Torquemada the latest nouveau cuisine delicacy at Wolfgang Puck's.)

And for the last time___ during the Vietnam War, our Presidents, Attorney Generals, the Congress, our press did not ever say or write that torture was ever acceptable.

BIG difference. ___ Now they do. The press doesn't say it is, they just don't cover the issue well.

It's a good bet that "What Is Probably in the Missing Tapes" is something that as one federal judge would define as "Something That Would Shock The Senses".

WhaT outfit were you attached to in Vietnam, BILL FROM SAGINAW? __ Or were you perhaps a South Vietnamese regular? You seem to know how it was over there. Or did you read a book some guy wrote to make a few bucks, or a movie maybe?

Nspire:
Agreed on the use of torture/shock to send a message, "Don't mess with us/U.S." Thanks for adding that.

Maxpayne:
Chalmers Johnson is probably right, and abolishing would probably be the only way to fix an institution so fraught with a troubled and scandalous history. As we've seen with the School of the Americas, renamed "The College of North American Flower Arranging" or whatever, mere reform, too often, goes only skin deep.

My point was that we should not abandan any effort to collect intelligence from around the world. I think there's still a need for that.

But even abolishing the CIA, and reconstructing some kind of intelligence-gathering institution, would tend to include the risk that it would be abused in the future. A country with such a long history of abuses would not easily give all that up. We are just too rich and powerful, and power tends to be abused. Citizens are just not active enough in watching their government. American Idol (et al) is just too tempting and takes up too much attention.

Secession, and smaller countries instead of such a large one, might help:
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/311/
But I'm not holding my breath that we're going to sell that idea any time soon.

I don't know what it would take. We have to educate people much better about the abuses that have taken place in the past. How do you advance that, without some arm of the intelligence community planting someone in your midst to blow up a bomb (a la COINTELPRO) to discredit your efforts and put everyone you know in a Haliburton-built jail?

We are so deep in the harvest of our own bad seed, it is hard to see how things could really get better, long term, without getting much worse first, and once they get much worse, it's as easy to imagine even worse dictators taking power instead of citizens finally demanding reform.

Maxpayne frothed: "The problem with LOSERS like RSJ is they refuse to deal with the fact that the Democratic Party is all too FUBARed (FUCKED up beyond all repair) with Blue Dogs, DLC hacks, and even social-only faux "liberal" motherfuckers who have really no interest in actually dealing with the problems they promised to solve."

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. The Dems were also screwed in 1932 before FDR became president -- I know, I've talked to people who were alive back then. The prevailing idea held by many before FDR took office in 1934 was that we would descend into a Communist or fascist dictatorship, engineered by the moneyed interests who run the country, amazingly similar to what we hear today.

Maxpayne screamed: "It's no surprise that motherfucking LOSERS such as RSJ would support Blue Dog motherfuckers such as Owen Pickett, now replaced by GOP Thelma Drake in my area, and Stephanie Herseth despite the fact that they go all out on a limb to support the GOP despite their "Democrat" label."

What in the hell are you talking about? I don't even know who these people are, Vitriol Boy. What are you accomplishing by calling everybody who challenges you a loser? Have you changed anyone's mind with these dumb tactics?

Maxpayne asked: "RSJ, You want to tell me who your Congress rep is who signed on to the impeachment and what state are you in anyway?"

Sure, it's Rep. Luis Gutierrez and I'm in Illinois. Since Luis usually does things I agree with, I have no reason to go to his office and scream at him until I get tossed out.

Listen, Max, do us all a favor and become a neocon Republican -- it suits your style.

David B and Kem Patrick:

Absolutely correcto mundo as to waterboard torture used in Vietnam, and the sea change in mumbo jumbo legalism conjured up by the Bushies in order to declare that torture isn't torture anymore in the Brave New Post 9/11 World.

Remember, too, that the vast majority of actual field interrogation/ torture in the Vietnam war was instantly "out sourced" by US troops to South Vietnamese soldiers and South Vietnamese intelligence operatives. To the powers-that-be, the American soldier who got court martialed for having his photograph waterboarding a captured Viet Cong suspect make the NY Times got what was coming because he could have, and should have been, more discreet and followed the usual protocol.

Other Common Dreamers:

No honest, competent law enforcement agency that had audiotaped a perp's confession would ever, ever, under any circumstances destroy that tape.

You can listen to it, summarize it in narrative form, type it up into verbatim transcript, keep it wholly secret, use it only in court, or leak it to the world. But you never, ever destroy the original: it is the honest prosecutor's ace in the hole, forever the best evidence of guilt, and the honest cop/interrogator's best friend to prove the accuracy and context of the bad guys' admissions, and the absence of wrongful overreaching by the good guys.

So why did the CIA destroy the tapes of the confessions of Zubayda and al-Nashiri?

Oh hell, just go connect the dots for yourself. Suffice to say, we're all now stuck with nothing but the word and integrity of the torturers to establish what was ever said, and what was supposedly never said, one--on-one, behind closed doors.

To me, the sorriest aspect of this whole recent revisiting of US torture policy was the disclosure that Nancy Pelosi, Jay Rockefeller, and Jane Harmon were briefed by the Cheney and the black ops boys, and as representatives of the loyal opposition they protesteth not.

Could it be that the Kerry campaign actually considered his Democratic colleagues' oversight complicity to be a sufficient partisan justification to let George Bush the compassionate Christian skate out of Abu Ghraib totally unscathed, with no political accountability whatsoever?

It still mystifies me how, with Bush, Gonzales, and Rumsfeld personally involved in trashing the Geneva Conventions, and torture handed to the Dems on a silver platter in 2004, not one word was ever uttered about this whole revolting, scandalous issue in the entire Presidential campaign.

Bill from Saginaw

What is in the missing tapes is the truth and that is the last thing this administration wants the light of day to shine on.

Speaking of Chalmers Johnson called for ABOLISHING THE CIA. Just do a search on the archived articles on this site.

Abolish the CIA!
by Chalmers Johnson
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1105-30.htm

As for Ray Mcgovern, just ask him and based on his tenure and experience in the CIA, I'm sure he would say "Yes, ABOLISH IT ALREADY !"

All this torture stuff can be solved by ABOLISHING THE CIA !

PF FLYER -- Your Progressive eyesight is fine, and you're correct that the fascist viewpoint is a stretch for most of us.

Torture is far more than mere mechanism to extract information, it is a process to dehumanize and reduce people to outright fear, pain and terror (as well as those around them) See here.

Torture is just one of many methods to SHOCK (see Naomi Klein's book Shock Doctrine) a population into vulnerability to suggestion and subtrafuge.

Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
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Sometimes I have to remind myself, as a progressive, to try to see things from the Cheney-Bush-Rumsfeld-Rove point of view.

When I still have my progressive glasses on, I think torture is immoral and terrible, and I because confessions given under torture are not reliable, I figure Bush must be an idiot to think this makes any sense.

That's the stupid progressive in me, not seeing past the nose on my face. I see the same kind of thinking in many other liberals/progressives/Democrats.

If you're Cheney or Bush and have just been handed 9-11 (new Pearl Harbor) on a silver platter, then of course unreliable confessions are great. The point is not to have reliable intel. The point is to be able to claim that you have a confession from someone that they'll poison the water, blow up the nuclear-electric generating plants, blow up day-care centers, anything that can support their propaganda of fear and endless war. Get one to confess that Iran has a nuclear missile that can reach Jerusalem, and it was ready last week. This is all good, if you can look at things from the Cheney-Bush-Rumsfeld-Rove P.O.V.

As for abolishing the C.I.A., I think that would be foolish. Reform, yes. Put Ray McGovern in charge of the reforms, along with Chalmers Johnson. Collect intelligence, sure. But stop funding opposition parties and meddling with democracies. Stop torture. Stop overthrowing governments, only to get blowback later. Stop creating the Frankenstein monsters (like Saddam, Pinochet, Noriega, Osama, etc.) that are convenient today, but that we have to disassociate ourselves from later and often destroy. Find a way to have more transparent relationships with other countries.

And we need to elect some ticket like Ralph Nader and Warren Buffett (or?) to reform taxes and stop the endless march toward economic and military empire. Tax the rich. Single-payer health care. Sustainable economics, local agriculture, government mandated reforms to mileage standards and urban design, tax cuts for people who live close to where they work and go to school. I know I'm sounding like a naive progressive optimist again, but I'm trying....

SouthDakotadude,

The problem with LOSERS like RSJ is they refuse to deal with the fact that the Democratic Party is all too FUBARed (FUCKED up beyond all repair) with Blue Dogs, DLC hacks, and even social-only faux "liberal" motherfuckers who have really no interest in actually dealing with the problems they promised to solve. It's no surprise that motherfucking LOSERS such as RSJ would support Blue Dog motherfuckers such as Owen Pickett, now replaced by GOP Thelma Drake in my area, and Stephanie Herseth despite the fact that they go all out on a limb to support the GOP despite their "Democrat" label.

RSJ,

You want to tell me who your Congress rep is who signed on to the impeachment and what state are you in anyway?

Maxpayne erupted: "RSJ, At least I tried unlike LOSERS like yourself who complain and sit like a couch potato allowing the motherfuckers to FUCK THE COUNTRY TO DEATH! Why don't you grow some courage and try standing up to your Congress MISrepresentative and your two Senators who don't do jack shit ? Like Archie Bunker would always say "STICKS AND STONES MAY BREAK MY BONES BUT YOU ARE ONE DUMB MEATHEAD !!!!"

Gee, Max, for someone who doesn't want to sound like Archie Bunker, quoting the term 'meathead' wouldn't quite be the way to do it. Aside from that, you don't know me or what I have done in my life, so your screeching is sheer ignorance. Maybe if you stopped typing your rage in ALL CAPS and thought about what you were doing, you could actually accomplish more than just calling people 'LOSERS.' Judging by the way you write, I'm not surprised the congressman threw you out of his office, and it had nothing to do with your politics -- perhaps he didn't like being called a 'meathead' or 'loser' either. If your idea of 'standing up' and 'showing courage' is to spit in everyone's face, you're never going to get anywhere anyway. Medea Benjamin and Code Pink do political theater that offends the powerful, but they have some wit and purpose to it beyond just shouting Archie Bunker epithets at people they purport to agree with. You might try it, Max, unless, of course, you're just a neocon troll doing this for your bizarre jollies. You write just like a neocon, at any rate.

And, BTW, my congressman just signed on to impeach Cheney, and one of my state's senators is running for president as a progressive. Once again, your ignorance is showing.

"thank you thank you,i was beginning to think there was no one else in this world that was aware that theft,death,destruction and subterfuge has always been the bush family enterprise.greedy gorging gougers,devoid of heart or conscience…they wax orgasmic over torture and the pain and the suffering of others,all it means to them is….. more for them.the insatiable drooling ghouls, would gladly sell out america and americans,now that they have sucked america as dry yesterday's bones,and stuffed there own coffers with our sweat and tears.they will just go set up shop,(elsewhere) dubai or paraguay……, the devil …. ..sucks it dry .. leaves it behind to die..jumps the sinking ship and moves his headquarters.. very.predictable it ain't his first rodeo(i.e.:prescott bush)….just the m.o. of evil.you better pin him now,on this torture stuff..cause another opportunity may not come again,in time."

nayoibi, please ..
the children will hear; at least those children that aren't too deaf or too dead to hear.

Of course America is the 'last superpower', so once you control her the world is your 'shop'; the whole world.

(This plan has been canceled however by We the People.)

My point exactly. It was not acceptable then and he was courtmartailed. Now, our president, vice prez, our Attorney General and most of Congress say it isn't torture. That is why we have lost any honor we ever did have.

Regarding torture by U.S. forces during the Vietnam War, waterboarding (the same torture technique now in the news) was indeed used by U.S. soldiers.

A photo of three American soldiers waterboarding a North Vietnamese POW was published by the Washington Post on January 21, 1968. The article described the practice as "fairly common." The photograph led to the soldier being courtmartialed by a U.S. military court two months later. Another waterboarding photograph of the same scene is exhibited in the War Remnants Museum at Ho Chi Minh City.

maxpayne,

I feel awfully sorry for what happened to you and your wife despite your valiant efforts to try and get your Congressman back in touch with reality. His rotten behavior goes to show how corrupt the Democrat pols can be. They wouldn't treat a corporate executive lobbyist the way they'd shit on folks like you and me. It's idiots like RSJ that give fake oppositions the power to middle finger us working class workers. I can tell you that out here in South Dakota, neither Mike Thune nor Stephanie Herseth would be kindly receptive. If I had gone to their office and questioned them, I'd be lucky to settle for 1 year in jail. So sad our misrepresentation has gotten. The CIA has been nothing but an agency for terrorists ever since it was created by Truman under executive order.

In retrospect we should have seen all this coming given the cowardly behavior of the Democratic Party especially since Reagan took office in 1980. Look when the Dems were a minority, Reid, Pelosi, Gephard, Daschle (who lost because of his blatant cowardice and last-minute rolling over in 2003 and 2004), and House Dems virtually gave Bush everything he wanted. Bankruptcy reform, tort reform, massive tax cuts for the rich, two new SCOTUS appointees, CAFTA and now more "free" trade scams, Terri Schiavo, war funding, etc... . All the stuff the rich and powerful wanted the Dems rolled over for.

Now with the Dems as a majority they are doing the exact same shit they did as a minority party - that being enabling the rich and powerful at the expense of the working class in this country.

Whats really galling about this mess is that the base and activist class for the first time has the organization(blogs and the net in general) to punish these fuckers but refuse to do so. Instead we're treated to a baffled Markos Moulitas on Olbermann and general silence from the "A" list liberal blogs including CD even though I actually like most of the articles CD posts and the need to learn from them.

No wonder the Repubs can roll these losers.

thank you thank you,i was beginning to think there was no one else in this world that was aware that theft,death,destruction and subterfuge has always been the bush family enterprise.greedy gorging gougers,devoid of heart or conscience...they wax orgasmic over torture and the pain and the suffering of others,all it means to them is..... more for them.the insatiable drooling ghouls, would gladly sell out america and americans,now that they have sucked america as dry yesterday's bones,and stuffed there own coffers with our sweat and tears.they will just go set up shop,(elsewhere) dubai or paraguay......, the devil .... ..sucks it dry .. leaves it behind to die..jumps the sinking ship and moves his headquarters.. very.predictable it ain't his first rodeo(i.e.:prescott bush)....just the m.o. of evil.you better pin him now,on this torture stuff..cause another opportunity may not come again,in time.

maxpayne, and everyone else on this site: please stop the bickering and name calling. It is counter-productive and weakens the movement to retake our country and restore the Constitution and real rule of law from the criminal element in power. Many of you write quite well and have more to offer than most politicians.

Remember one thing, folks... Money and Power ( The Ruling Class ) stay together in spite of petty differences. "United We Stand, Divided We Fall"! It may sound simplistic to some of you, but it is workable. As the saying goes, "sometimes we have to swallow our pride" and put our heads together and agree on the best method and go from there.

I can take being ridiculed and called names. Is it a positive way to deal with the issues?

JH,

The reason impeachment is off the table is the fake "left" elects LOSERS who in the end cave in to the Bush/Limbaughian GOP.

RSJ,

At least I tried unlike LOSERS like yourself who complain and sit like a couch potato allowing the motherfuckers to FUCK THE COUNTRY TO DEATH ! Why don't you grow some courage and try standing up to your Congress MISrepresentative and your two Senators who don't do jack shit ? Like Archie Bunker would always say "STICKS AND STONES MAY BREAK MY BONES BUT YOU ARE ONE DUMB MEATHEAD !!!!"

Tell me why impeachment is off the table? Are we complicit citizens like the Germans in WWII?

"As a european the only quibble I have from this is that you Americans appear to be surprised by the appalling behavior of your state."

Again today, "not my opinion". I am not surprised by any of the 'appalling behavior' by any Administration here since our second-President, Washington (with proviso for singular/possible-surprise related to Jefferson's -- but that's "water under bridge", anyway).
"european" is rather-vague (and non-Capitalized)? But, I seriously doubt any nation on your-side-of-pond is entirely happy/proud with many of your leadership's Historical-records [or even blameless regards current-foibles -- unless you are Swedish, my personal-heritage, in which case I'd 'give you advantage of doubt'...] Granted, most Europeans are NOT as 'shocked' when your leaders louse-up as Americans-are (we are brainwashed from early-age to be 'patriotic-consumers', unawares of our appalling track-record as well as 'current-events' elsewhere).

Newharper, I, for one, am not surprised by how bad the Bush Administration has acted -- I knew Rove's political Frankenstein was a monster when he first started running in 1999. The only shock is the sheer volume of scandals, and the Democrats' (most of them) refusal to investigate them and take them to their logical end -- impeachment and removal from office. As someone who loves his country, it pains me to see us being dragged down by an unelected accident like Bush.

Maxpayne, you wrote: "You people who keep thinking the CIA is to strong to be removed are acting like LOSERS."

Rather than tearing down the CIA, why not instead put it in the hands of people who know what they're doing -- such as Larry C. Johnson and Ray McGovern. We might need foreign intelligence in the future, and the CIA is set up to collect that intelligence. As I've posted elsewhere at CD, everyone who works for the CIA is not a torturer nor creep; many care as much about democracy, civil rights, and the Constitution as anyone posting here does.

Maxpayne, you wrote: "Instead of building think tanks and institutions, you people on the "left" would much rather act like a bunch of rag-tag group of LOSERS throwing rocks at tanks."

While behind the right-wing in the creation of progressive think tanks, they do exist: There's the Center for American Progress, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, Economic Policy Institute, Center for Law and Policy, the Center for Public Integrity, Public Citizen, among others; and, of course, the ACLU and CREW (Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington). All of these groups are having an impact and increasing in size, thanks to BushCo and the neocons. So it is wrong to say that this work is not being done.

Maxpayne, you wrote: "And if you LOSERS think I ain't done shit, well, you're sadly mistaken. I've actually gone to Congressional offices and everytime I bring up issues about their pandering to the GOP, my wife and I would be escorted by security guards and that happened even before Bush came into office!"

So whatever shit you've done has accomplished little apparently. Perhaps it's time to change your shit into something that shows results beyond being escorted out of some politician's office by a security guard?

Maxpayne, you wrote: "I realized that we need to build movements outside of Washington, say Kansas and Alabama for example. You people keep thinking that we should all shut up, write off huge swaths of land, and condescend people who really mean business."

Can you be more specific, because I don't know of anyone here at CD or in this thread who has advocated us shutting up and writing off huge areas of land.

Maxpayne, you wrote: "You coastal lattes had better get your shit together because it ain't gonna get easier!"

Thanks for the right-wing stereotype, Max, but I live in Fly-Over Country and I don't drink lattes.

As a european the only quibble I have from this is that you Americans appear to be surprised by the appalling behavior of your state.

peaceman,

I do apologize for sounding so angry and while I may look like an Archie Bunker, I'm just so disgusted that unlike the "right", 9 out of 10 times, nothing is rewarded on the "left" and what angered me the most was when a Democratic Congressman in my district tried to file a lawsuit against my wife and I for "disruptive behavior" in his office just because we discussed with him how concerned we were about his pandering to the GOP issue after issue. The thing is he would never LISTEN but instead go "yeah, sure we'll look into it" bullshit. But when we raised an issue about military spending gone wild and the trade deals, we were immediately kicked out of his office without warning when he REFUSED to explain his pandering to the rightwing habits. And that didn't stop there. In the last 4 years, every time I would get flyers in the mail from environmental and women's groups such as NARAL, my wife and I would write those groups letters trying to tell them to reframe the message in a better light. Of course, we'd get shitty responses like "yeah, we'll think about it", "get lost", "we can't afford to do it that way but thanks for writing anyway", "yeah, well America has to win the war on ..." !

[sorry, tried to Edit, as below, but the silly-thing disallowed]:

"There are comments here about Vietnam atrocities, others have mentioned those of Iraq, another suggests aids as a fabricated pathogen, and many realise that the 9/11 cover up does more than anything show the improbability of the official scenario of 19 men with box cutters, barely able to fly a Cessna being behind the event. But what you are all really saying is the American system is broken. Democracy there is dead."

Not my-Opinion, thank you. Something monsterous has to have been alive-once to be "dead" -- even a Frankenstein (and these nitwit 'Realists' are nowhere close to being the G-ds they think-they-are than they are to being ill-fated Scientists -- who may be destroyed soon by their over-reaching in Creating these horrors).
America, and its so-called Democracy, was literally-invented, directed, and developed by the same powerful-Interests (as shared by most-here, but pointedly favoring those-few always 'at our top'). It was NEVER any working-Democracy, nor was it ever a functional-Republic. Senators appointed, Presidents 'electorally-colleged'. It was and remains a morass of seemingly-conflicted but conjoined/multiple Interests ALWAYS well-controlled for the benefit/gains of its real-founders and their-ilk (not the legendary-Founders, who were little-more than enterprising and 'hanger-on'/exploitive slave-owners and land-thieving, white, male, middle-class chauvinistic-opportunists who were 'clever' at making their avarice and high-sounding intents look so 'ethical and inspired' in-retrospect and after hidden-intent).
What made America a damn-fine and pride-filled place to live (at least for those of us old-enough to even remember that) were the crumbs-tossed downhill (and from their preferred-location of up-wind) by our ever-present 'betters'. The elitist-tool FDR didn't hand us a New Deal because of his Humanism...he was forced to because the mass of the Public was forced to lean towards rising-Socialism after the third(?) unsuccessful and complete robber-baron/corporate take-over of this country (which probably would not have failed in the '30's had not the Foundation of Israel been a secondary but needful 'priority'). Thank Israel for that New Deal, its resultant 'aftermath' of/in a seemingly democratic/decent/pro-Labor America, its 'middle-class', and the country/'good-times' you so-belatedly are 'missing today' (if you can wrap you mind around the related-History of the 'times').
If you can't, then thank the true-Threat of a Public which almost tore this country to shards after the Depression (not the current-one, but the 'old-timey' one gramp's bored you with).
Like the whore offered only a nickel -- most of what we subsequently argue about in here, and find so damn 'shocking' today, is us 'bargaining over the price, not the Act/essence', not our expression of 'high-ethics' (which was sadly-lacking during America's 'heyday', although the rest of the undeveloped world and uncounted Natives-of-our-own were then, also, "paying the piper" for us AND our-tune). We who 'scream the loudest' now, are often the pigs who happen to recently be at the leading-edge of the coming-slaughter by our celebrated/admired 'Farmers' -- who have always slopped-us so well -- not Moralists/humanists who objected to these atrocities elsewhere and in-our-name while they were directly-benefiting 'us'. Those who most-bitch today about 'what is being lost', were perfectly-content whilst 'shoe was on other-foot'.
You "reap what you have sown"...
However, 'change' can always be instituted -- look at the odds-overcame by a very-small but extraordinarily-dedicated group of the secular/amoral-'Chosen' who wanted their 'home back'. If a worldwide hyper-minority of less than 15-million today can have accomplished what they-did (albeit primarily due to the ruthlessness of only an important/successful few), we-too could actualize and promote 'our dreams' [is this site not called "Commondreams"?].
You can make your Constitution as workable/sustainable a guideline as its initial-authors (the Iroquois Confederacy) did -- for the hundreds of years it took to perfect it before 'whites-came' and stole-it, while they stole everything-else and their very-lives. You just have to 'want it bad enough'.

"There are comments here about Vietnam atrocities, others have mentioned those of Iraq, another suggests aids as a fabricated pathogen, and many realise that the 9/11 cover up does more than anything show the improbability of the official scenario of 19 men with box cutters, barely able to fly a Cessna being behind the event. But what you are all really saying is the American system is broken. Democracy there is dead."

Not my-Opinion, thank you. Something monsterous has to have been alive-once to be "dead" -- even a Frankenstein (and these nitwit 'Realists' are nowhere close to being the G-ods they think-they-are than they are than the ill-fated Scientists who may be destroyed by their over-reaching in Creating these horrors.
America, and its so-called Democracy, was literally-invented, directed, and developed by the same powerful-Interests (as shared by most-here, but pointedly favoring those-few always 'at the top'). It was NEVER any working-Democracy, nor was it ever a functional-Republic. It was and remains a morass of seemingly-conflicted but conjoined/multiple Interests ALWAYS controlled for the benefit/gains of its real-founders and their-ilk (not the legendary-Founders, who were little-more than enterprising and 'hanger-on'/exploitive slave-owners and land-thieving, white, male, middle-class chauvinistic-opportunists who were 'clever' at making their avarice and high-sounding intents look so 'ethical and inspired' in-retrospect and hidden-intent).
What made America a damn-fine and pride-filled place to live (at least for those of us old-enough to remember that) was the crumbs-tossed downhill (and from preferred-location of up-wind) by our ever-present 'betters'. The elitist-tool FDR didn't hand us a New Deal because of Humanism...he was forced to because the mass of the Public was forced to lean towards rising-Socialism after the third(?) unsuccessful and complete robber-baron/corporate take-over of this country (which probably would not have failed in the '30's had not the Foundation of Israel been a secondary but needful 'priority'). Thank Israel for that New Deal, its now withdrawn 'aftermath' of a seemingly democratic/decent America, and the country/'good-times' you so-belatedly are 'missing' today (if you can wrap you mind around the related-History of the 'times').
Like the whore offered only a nickel, most of what we subsequently argue about here, and find so 'shocking', is us 'bargaining over price', not our expression of 'high-ethics' (sadly-lacking during America's 'heyday', although the rest of the undeveloped world was then, also, paying the piper for us). We who 'scream the loudest', are the pigs who happen now to be at the leading-edge of the coming-slaughter by our celebrated/admired 'Farmers' who have always slopped-us so well -- not Moralists/humanists who objected to these atrocities elsewhere and in-our-name while they directly-benefited 'us'. Those who most-bitch about 'what is being lost', were perfectly-content when 'shoe was on other-foot'.
You "reap what you have sown"...
However, 'change' can always be instituted -- look at the odds-overcame by a very-small but extraordinarily-dedicated group of the secular-'Chosen' who wanted their 'home back'. If a worldwide hyper-minority of less than 15-million today can have accomplished what they-did, we-too could actualize and promote 'our dreams' [is this not called "Commondreams"?].
You can make your Constitution as workable/sustainable a guideline as its initial-authors (the Iroquois Confederacy) did -- for the hundreds of years it took to perfect it before 'white-came' and stole-it while they stole everything-else and their very-lives. You just have to 'want it bad enough'.

As I said before, the last time we tried to exercise control over the intelligence and covert operations run by the Corporate Neo-Fascists, they killed JFK, RFK and MLK. The only way to do it is to get control of the presidency and both houses of congress, with likeminded people, and defund the whole thing. Check out this link -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331

There are comments here about Vietnam atrocities, others have mentioned those of Iraq, another suggests aids as a fabricated pathogen, and many realise that the 9/11 cover up does more than anything show the improbability of the official scenario of 19 men with box cutters, barely able to fly a Cessna being behind the event. But what you are all really saying is the American system is broken. Democracy there is dead.

The complicity of major political parties, corporate and financial insitutions with the corupt administration and executive, the "politisized" Supreme Court, with their complicity in destruction of democracy, the tampering with electoral processes,….. etc. All these and more point to the fact that the people of America are presently being directed, driven, lead by, an administration that is a construct of lies, hypocrisy, without a glimmer of moral or ethical foundation. The government of the USA is the epitome of evil and like all evil before it builds its power on fear, destruction, suffering, hatred, ignorance, delusion and not least greed.

Some comparisons above have been made with the rise of the Nazi Germany and the Third Reich, and people may say that this is extreme, but not if you are today in Baghdad, Addis Ababa, or anywhere, for that matter, where some self-deluded authority with the blessing of Washington can round up, lock up, and torture anyone they want to, while being commended for their support of the War on Terror.

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to understand that in Bali 188 Nations were trying to establish a realistic workable basis for the survival of millions upon millions of humans on this planet facing crises and one nation managed to tip the apple cart just enough to force a compromise, taking out the dynamic of the international political movement gained after years years of authoritative scientific work, as if their aim was the pursuit of short term corporate profit through permanent war and disasters. Look at the causes of, and reactions to, Katrina by the US government? Should such a track record be qualified to force a compromise in setting the agenda and limits of the world planning its own survival?

Be warned that the most dangerous development in the USA is not their use of pre-emptive war, economic or geo-political dominance, or the use of torture, nor their economic, fiscal or physical fortresses built for their corrupt corporate or political elite. The most dangerous development is their massive investment into biological warfare, pathogens and their anti-bodies under spurious auspices of anti-terrorism bio-defence. "A gun or a bomb leaves no doubt that a deliberate attack has occurred. But if someone is stricken with a sudden, fatal illness -- or an epidemic slashes across a crowded city -- there is no way of knowing whether anyone attacked, much less who." That was the key conclusion of the Pentagon's Committee on Biological Warfare in a secret October 1948 report. Though the Special Operations unit may have closed in '75 at Fort Detrick, Maryland, the pursuit and perfection of now genetically modified pathogens and their counter vaccines there, and in about 400 other laboratories across the country continues and has been accelerated by the Bush administrations enourmous financing. Their work provides the ultimate power over "them" and "us" in warfare and so called "force projection", creating the "haves" and "have nots" defined by a vaccine.

An example of ultimate hypocrisy: John R. Bolton, (then) US Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security, Tokyo, Japan, August 26, 2002, while justifying the US rejection of the Biological Weapons Convention Protocol "The world must end its silent acquiescence to illicit biological weapons programs. The United States seeks to put maximum political pressure on proliferators by naming state parties that are violators of the BWC. We believe it is critical to put on notice such states that choose to ignore the norms of civilized society and pursue biological weapons. These states must realize that their efforts to develop these terrible weapons will not go unnoticed. Our President has set a standard all should meet: tell the truth; speak out; be clear. Advice worth following, especially when it comes to biological weapons."

Now read the Global Research article by Sherwood Ross "America's Germ Warfare Capabilities developed in secret in US Corporate Labs" of January 7, 2007.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4360

Be warned and take what action you can, safely. These are sociopatic mass murdering criminals!

We are, sadly, NOT 'running out of oil' (most of what is bitched-about here, by coastal-lattes or otherwise, is resultant from the over-abundance of oil, and its potential to be 'cheap' if not-'controlled' -- as it has-been, with minor setbacks, since JDR/Standard monopolization of refinement/distribution/'markets'). And Yes, the CIA&cohorts WILL get much-worse and also controlled by wealthy-Interests -- increasingly (in nightmare fashions most here don't dream-of yet).
That 'process' inevitably began when the hyper-power we are (groomed to be the militant/'action' arm of the so-called/neo-Lib New World Order) lost any 'real-Enemy' when the USSR consolidated/rolled-back. Those who actually-employ such as the CIA well-knew Communism was never a real-Enemy (and fought-hard under Reagan/Bush to prop-it-up, failing and thus losing its prime-Usefulness). But the minions and Nationalistic-Patriotic dullards who actually 'man' the ranks of placed-management within our multi-faceted Intel/Enforcement-structure weren't ever "in on that joke", so they were focusing most of their 'energies' upon a false-enemy and once-disinclined to focus overmuch upon the 'enemy-within'. That all changed after Russian-disobedience in realized self-Interest, and these 'power-elite' had to shift all focus upon the also 'made-up' threat of Terrorism so efficaciously employed by their ME-branch of 'Realists' and banker-friends, the Zionists (who had to employ this canard of 'Islamic-fascism' for any Founding/holding of their precious-Israel).
Now, and still in compliance-with and aided by the mindset-of 'Patriotism', these Intel/Enforcement lackies and strong-arm dupes have been put on the false-scent of 'internal-terrorism' (beginning with the inventions/propaganda of 'Eco/PETA-terrorists', and made-paranoid and incentivized-factionists like McVeigh -- all hammered-out into the Public fear-pool by Media/Jollywood in the interim). THAT is what will 'bite us in ass' shortly, and THAT is why Americans who 'know their own Interests' will and should attempt to stop the intended-result and this speeding-train.
But, will they? [In time, preferably?]
I very-much doubt-it, myself -- but then, I had to learn to think like a PNAC-Realist to 'know the enemy' -- so my thinking is 'suspect' now, by (ironically) both-sides...!

follow the impotence ..

maxpayne; Speaking only for myself, I understand your point. The Left is fragmented and ineffective as we all can see. Possibly too much "intelectualizing" and not enough direct action, and I'm not just refering to 'one-day' feel good marches, which I and others have been participating in, with no apparent results.

After seven horrible years of this administration and 'one-party' system of governance, and our elected/selected representatives scorning us, it is time for a different approach. One that works to run the criminals out of office and restore what has been deliberately destroyed by this Congress of political prostitutes.

follow the money...power and greed...same old same old...the Washington consensus...oil is running out and we've got to control it and NOTHING else matters and, frankly, we are all guilty...and check out nuclear primacy...the USA wants that too...and we are rich and fat and lazy...all of us...so sit back, which we're all doing and enjoy the show...cause it's going to be a bumpy ride...might as well invest at least you'll have money to buy some crumbs

It doesn't matter if even the worst kind of mafia will protect the CIA, it long past due to get rid of it, PERIOD. The "conservatives" don't give up just because they failed once. They have lots of organization and long-range planning and they'll keep trying even if it means finding different ways to get around the main blocker until they succeed just like they've done with "abortion". In addition, they have the language, infrastructure, and agenda to keep them focused unlike the "left" which looks COMPLETELY DYSFUNCTIONAL. The "left", on the other hand, due to their lack of organization and long-range planning relies on a one-man show to do everything for them from FDR all the way to Clinton. You people who keep thinking the CIA is to strong to be removed are acting like LOSERS. Instead of building think tanks and institutions, you people on the "left" would much rather act like a bunch of rag-tag group of LOSERS throwing rocks at tanks. And if you LOSERS think I ain't done shit, well, you're sadly mistaken. I've actually gone to Congressional offices and everytime I bring up issues about their pandering to the GOP, my wife and I would be escorted by security guards and that happened even before Bush came into office ! I realized that we need to build movements outside of Washington, say Kansas and Alabama for example. You people keep thinking that we should all shut up, write off huge swaths of land, and condescend people who really mean business. You coastal lattes had better get your shit together because it ain't gonna get easier !

What the ACLU just 'doesn't get', as yet, is that Americans "don't want to know" [in this nearly-singular regard, we are not "inquiring-minds"].
I well-know exactly what those particular tapes-held -- just as I know their existence/'leakage' was a feign (a deliberate and scaled-down Ruse) -- exactly the same as "my adventure-vacation pictures from Abu Ghraib".
Did they depict criminal-acts? Of course... BUT, not nearly representative of the network and mass-employment of shockingly-criminal 'real-Torture' that you can bet-your-ass the CIA has securely stowed-away (in 'living-color' and multiple camera-views, if not Hi-def and 3-D).
Those 'tapes' were designed to suit a specific-purpose...to 'shock' but not-Awe. To 'skate the edge' of what this Public will allow (or come-to-allow) from their stalwart 'Protectors' -- thus hiding the real-Shame of what these sadly-broken and made-inhuman (once only 'inhumane') Interrogators are now institutionalizing and employing against VAST-numbers of 'possibly-suspects' around-the-Globe.
It would matter not-at-all if these canards were displayed on TV repeatedly and during Family-Hour. They PALE in comparison to the hell-holes we are processing others into like so much Summer-Sausage.
Firstly, many lie or resist (the majority of them having 'nothing to tell' from onset). Soon, all are made-to-talk (and fabricate whatever they imagine in their suffering that these 'beasts' want of them). But then, in many-cases, they are left to their horror of the growing-certainty that WHATEVER they might provide/say/invent is NOT their ticket to a welcomed-death. The real-Fate they eventually-encounter is the much-worse and nightmare-realization that they cannot be set-free to 'subsequently-Talk', nor is anything to-date going to satisfy their abductors. The real-Torture thus begins, and ends only in their agonized [and oftentimes 'multiple' -- thanks to the many involved&cooperative 'healers' once-sworn to "do no harm"] deaths. This final-atrocity serving two ignoble-Ends -- to compare all 'last-words' to all-previous, and also to insure that 'dead-men never tell further-tales'.
These tapes-discussed are 'meaningless'. Even counter-productive in their pursuit (as were the much-ballyhooed photos/vid's from Iraq).
Don't let 'them' so-easily manipulate your opinions/efforts/'Realities'...

Ms Wolf writes: "We torture, illegally, by directive; the directives come from the top; those who torture know it is probably criminal; when we torture prisoners, the guilty and the innocent, they will tell us anything they think we want to hear — including implicate themselves falsely, as many reports from Human Rights Watch and other rights organizations testify to — to make the torture stop; and the White House routinely uses that faked or coerced unverifiable "intelligence" to buttress its wholesale assault on our liberties."

It is apparent that this administration did not torture because it stupidly believed it would obtain information to FIND BIN LADEN, or to secure America, but to get any phony words from the accused so that the administration could use the "fake confessions" to say it has thwarted other terrorists' attempts.

This is serious business and does indeed warrant an independent prosecutor.

I agree with Kem, most soldiers and Marines in the Vietnam War didn't torture Vietnamese and it wasn't official policy, although I don't doubt that it happened occasionally. Most of the rumor back then had to do with the Viet Cong torturing Americans, which also happened.

Certainly innocent people were killed in atrocities such as My Lai, but then scared 19-year-old draftees were being handed loaded M-16's and indoctrinated with: "Sure, that might be just a peasant woman out with her wash, but she could be carrying a machine gun. That might be just an innocent kid playing, but he could have a grenade hidden. You want to wait until you're bleeding to find out which?"

This doesn't excuse the killing of innocent people, but it explains the conditions under which such things occur. It was, after all, a war, and all wars are atrocities by themselves.

Most of the returning Viet vets, just as the Iraq vets I meet today, are not gung-ho idiots boasting of their macho deeds. There are the swaggering idiots who love war, of course, too many, but the average soldier or Marine isn't like that -- why do you think there were so many fraggings in Nam? I would bet the number is as high in Iraq today.

-"("I am going to find your mother and I am going to fuck her" is one direct quote from a US interrogator).-" I think Naomi is confusing CIA interrogations with a typical rant from my jr. high P.E. coach...

If the CIA really wanted to torture these well meaning but misunderstood freedom fighters, they'd force them to read Naomi's writings....

"Stalinesque"
Good Girl, Naomi!
Trashism not Fascism; hate not greed.

The issue is not whether these and many other incidents happened and may still be happening. This is obvious and has been for years. The only issue now is when the depraved degenerates in the administration will be brought to justice, tried, and, if found guilty, meted out the sentences appropriate to their crime.

maxpayne -
The last time a president, JFK, started talking about reeling in the CIA, he was killed.
and KEM PATRICK -
I think he was in the tapes, not laughing, but getting stimulated. I think he has a torture fetish.

I think that the American public needs a good water boarding. Their greed and stupidity has created the whole atmosphere of totalitarian behavior in America. As long as they can over consume energy, food, and the environment, they prefer to remain ignorant of the world they inhabit. There will be nothing that happens to anybody for the torture or the cover up. I hate to see the false hope that is out there these days. These pundits make money hand over fist as they tease us with hope. That is mental cruelty.

Some have mentioned the Aids virus and it may have been developed here. Hmmmm.

I read on the CNN news yesterday, about gettng our flu shots this year. One reason it gave for the importance of getting one is, the nasty and very deadly form of bird flu can now be passed from human to human.

Then it stated, of course this is only possible in the lab, where the virus it safely maintained in medical cultures. Whooops, why develop it so it can be passed from human to human? The article stated IF it gets loose, the pandemic wilL make the flu epidemic of 1918 seem like a mild outbreak. What happensd to those 'safe' Africanized bees? __Bzzzzzzzzzz. __ Cluck-cluck.

That article was not written by a government agency, it was a reporter who garnered some interesting info.

It's so appallingly simple. If you want to do something patently illegal, just have a lawyer draw up a statement that says it is now called something else.

Why be a rapist when you can be a sexual assertiveness practitioner?

Poet; You are on to something! I just remembered something after reading your post. Earlier this year, on a radio station, it might have been KPFA 94.1 FM out of Berkely, Ca. that our illustrious government has really been spying on so many people of importance , especially in bars, nightclubs, sex parties, drug stuff, and things of this nature. And if they do try to change the system for the better...

May be another conspiracy "theory" again. Certainly plausible.

COMatc wonders:

If you know evidence is being destroyed, the first thing to do is to act to protect any remaining evidence. What you don't see the Dems doing is passing immediate writs demanding that any remaining evidence be turned over to the Congress immediately to safeguard it for future investigations.

****************************

My own take on this is that (like the FBI for instance)the CIA and the rest of the security state establishment probably has hours and hours of tapes of our illustrious leaders caught in flagrante delicto (Latin legal term meaning "caught in the very act") of all manner of sexual, drug, and perhaps even criminal escapades.

Then they offer them tihs deal--play ball with us and this embarassing evidence need never see the light of day and we'll pay you handsomely for your services rendered. Get feisty or (God forbid!) ethical and we will destroy you and all your loved ones. Ask the Kennedy and King families about how this system works.

The US seems to have refined and perfected a system of candidate recruitment for high office that assures that either the morally loose, criminally bent, chemically compromised, or just plain nutsy types are the ones who keep getting reelected year in and year out. It makes approval of funding requests and lax oversight so very much easier burdens for our handlers to bear.

Greenerthanthou; Very good points. Look how quickly the Patriot Act was alledgedly written after 9/11. And the rapid fall of the twin towers, and no real coverage of the Pentagon plane crash, and on and on. But that's for the conspiracy theorists, right? The death squads you mentioned in Iraq came shortly after Negroponte was sent over, so I heard. Hmmm...he played a role in the death squads in Central America during the Reagan Administration.

The Aids virus theory had some serious investigators trying to establish the origin of it, and some think it may have originated in the labs at Fort Detrick, Maryland. I don't know?

And for your last paragraph, they saw how sucessful the 'Reichstag Fire' turned out to be for criminals in high places. That's old hash. How about white men dressing up like Indians and commiting crimes then plaming the natives? It goes on and on.

Rebel Farmer; If that's true about Murkasey, and I'm not doubting you, then the plan worked. Remember the phoney conformation hearings with the three key members of the Senate: Specter, Feinstein, and Shumer supposedly confronting him about water boarding as torture, and he wouln't commit himself? That wet their whistles and the trio of hypocrites gave him thumbs up.

So what are we to do now, you ask? Perhaps the most difficult question to answer so far.

With a year left in office, and Democratic compliance and subserviance to Bush, and in spite of the 'investigations' Waxman and a few others are conducting, impeacment will still be in our imaginations after Bush is out of office. The "we didn't have the votes" crowd will still be echoing that familiar tune. Prices for everything will increase, services will be reduced, they'll be more fees for this that and the other thing, and our fellow citizens will be content with the status quo as long as they can purchase gasoline and have a tv set to watch "the games", 'Faux News', and other entertainment.

I truly appreciate your concern, REB, as well as other bloggers and all activists in all the various approaches to our national dilema. Still a small minority of folks. Unless the majority of the people want to change the system it won't happen.

When somebody figures out the way, let me know, because I'm just as frustrated as the rest of you.

Notice the trailer: "Naomi Wolf is an author whose books include The Beauty Myth"

I mean, her latest book is "The End of America" Even the blogs are being controlled, sigh.

And this:

"An independent special prosecutor must be appointed. The people who are found guilty, in America, must face justice.

Let the investigations begin."

Thats the only way you get Huff Post to print anything. You have to pretend we actually have a Democracy. Investigation? Justice? Give me a break.

I am not attacking Naomi, she is a hero. If she was free to write something
that could get printed by a MSM like blog she might conclude her article with something like this (just better written).

"But do not expect any investigation or justice my critters, because this is The End of America (hint: its my latest book). The additional evidence for those who still need it show that we are no longer a true democracy which respects inalienable rights, but instead are a hybrid of Stalin and Mussolini's form of government, but with more money and weapons, allowing us to expand our Empire on the road to a One World Global Government governed by the elite. "

I might try to post this comment on HuffPost but I know it won't get past the moderators.

A Rockefeller (Jay) being on the Intelligence Committee says it all about our Democratic Congress (remember when the Rockefellers were Republicans). David Rockefeller is the Global Czar that may be responsible for the War on Terror and Iraq. Perhaps if the Rothchilds regain power this GWOT will be replaced by a War on Pollution, but we still won't get back our Democracy.

There is another player here that has gained influence that may be more responsible for the real nasty stuff and being so obvious about it. The Rockefellers have been around for over 100 years and took power in 1930 after the depression, and the last 7 years is a bit of a deviation from their preferred MO of maintaining our nice guy image while we were doing nasty things. But you can figure who that is for yourself.

Hi REBEL. So what now? We will see nothing of any significance happen. Now if you keep up your on the target drumbeat of impeaching the criminals and enough march to your perfect beat, we may see some action.

NAOMI WOLF IS MY HERO...HEROINE!!!
WHAT A FREAKIN' STREET SMART SEXY BALLSY BROAD!
IT'S HIGH TIME FOR THE WOMEN TO RULE THE WORLD!
KEEP SPEAKING OUT & EXPOSING YOUR BRAINS NAOMI...

NAILED IT!!
THANKS PETERHOLMES

peterholmes December 14th, 2007 3:12 pm
I'd like to echo the above comment about 9/11. The 9/11 Commission Report based much of their narrative on transcripts from the interrogations whose tapes were destroyed. In the coming years the American people may or may not realize that the term conspiracy theory is just a pejorative excuse not to examine the overwhelming evidence that 9/11 was a self inflicted attack. It's an excuse not to think objectively. So be better than that; go online, buy David Ray Griffin's Debunking 9/11 Debunking, and then join the ongoing fight to take this county back.

re: torture in Vietnam. The Phoenix Program did torture and then murder what is estimated at 40,000 people. I know a man who knows Stockdale and he was told that they outsourced a lot of the torture. They hired Vietnamese police to do it.
Sound familar? The death squads in Iraq that started in 2004? Men dressed like police coming and kidnapping men who are later found killed execution style? And we are told that wandered into a civil war that no one noticed before. That Shiites and Sunnis have hated and killed each other for years. Ignore the Iraqis who deny this and claim that they have both Shiites and Sunnis in their tribes.
Rather like the AIDS virus that supposedly came from Africa, but no one noticed until it appeared in San Francisco, New York and Haiti. Now, of course, it's killing 1/2 the population in Africa. But after it appeared in New York, San Francisco and Haiti, it next appeared in Africa and Brazil. Strange pattern for a virus to follow.
Do I think that a part of the US government is capable of blowing up its own buildings and blaming it on "terrorist"? Absolutely. It's called the strategy of tension, and the CIA invented it in Europe post WW11.

News Flash: Murkasey responded to both the Senate and the Congress. He will NOT give them any information about the torture tapes. Further, there WILL NOT be an independent prosecutor.

So what now my friends?

Since the tortured are presumably still alive, why doesnt congress subpeana them to testify as to what happened? What about "witness protection programs"?
Then we can waterboard chimpy and the dick to find out who outed Valerie Plame.

Whatever happened to the secret Eastern European prisons? Outta sight, outta mind?

Too bad most of the Dems are onboard with this. It'll take a concerted effort of lawyers, human rights groups, international peace activists and observers, scientists, scholars, and ordinary citizens to apply legal pressure on our own government, to get them back into the same realm of laws that we must abide by.

I've oft-wondered about the essential hypocrisy we teach our children: telling them not to solve disputes by hitting one another. And then we've got the president of US condoning pre-emptive wars and torture.

Yo COMarc,

At least I woke up your brain by actually being brave enough to call for an ABOLITION OF THE CIA unlike LOSERS who still keep hoping that gubmint will take care of their ASSES even as they're being SOLD OUT. Give me one fucking reason the CIA deserves to be kept.

John Dean wrote that Cheney has started destroying documents.
In der bunker tings are going bad.

-theme music-
The following is a dramatization.

Agent: "Mr. President, there's been an attack on the United States. Nobody knows anything about it, except that somehow we know it's safe for our commander to continue sitting in a public area."

Agent: "Mr. President, there's been another attack. Both were from airplanes. It's time for you to get into an airplane and fly somewhere without air escort. Somehow we know that's safe."

Everybody has their favorite 9/11 anomaly.

There must be war crimes trials at some point in the future. Let's not forget these abuses.

You are one of us PJD, if we live in a shit house, __ we smell like shit.

I did not ask to be born a citizen of this vile, contemptable nation-state - a true enemy of all humanity.

HEAVYRUNNER, 'perhaps' that man's story was true, I have heard that same story numerous times, told in barracks bull sessions by others. I am certain people were abused and tortured, raped and murdered in Vietnam. I NEVER heard our Presidents, our Attorney Generals, or any members of Congress Okay it. Not until Bush took office. That is and was my point.

If torture of another human does take place, anyplace, by any American, it must be brought to court. If not, we do not deserve to survive as a nation. If not, we Americans are ALL guilty in the eyes of all of the people in this world, and lose any credibility we have as a world leader.

It is ironic, a NFL quarterback has been found guilty of torturing pit bulls and he has been sentenced to two years in prison, and we are not bringng our leaders to trial for the same crime against human beings.

COMARC, I suppose you are saying that what I posted about my visual and verbal experiences in Vietnam was not correct. Thank you for sharing your assumptins and opinions with me.

I did mention that many horrible things occurred In Vietnam and did mention Lt. Calley, the scorge of the Mai Lai massacure. It is TORTURE this article was written about and my comments addressed that issue and the fact that rumors about Vietnam abound. True or not, our Presidents did not openly approve of torture, to my knowledge, durng that war.

If you know of any other time in our recent American history, that compares with the present administrations concerning TORTURE, please let me know. We are refering to water boarding and our last and current Attorney Generals and our President, have publically approved of it. That was my point. What happened in Vietnam has little to do with what is occuring today. It is similar to one saying, (we did it before, so what's new?)

Note carefully what you don't see the Dems in Congress doing.

If you know evidence is being destroyed, the first thing to do is to act to protect any remaining evidence. What you don't see the Dems doing is passing immediate writs demanding that any remaining evidence be turned over to the Congress immediately to safeguard it for future investigations.

Nope, the Dems are just playing their usual political theater of trying to score some cheap headlines without doing anything really serious.

Kem Patrick ... have you never heard of the Phoenix Program? Or maybe it was "operation phoenix".

Something like 40,000 people were MURDERED in that program. With the full approval of the CIA, the Congress, the US Gov and including the Presidents.

Murder is certainly torture. Or maybe its a step even beyond torture. And its completely beyond belief that we'd kill that many people, but we wouldn't rough them up or torture them for information first.

What was the series that the Toledo paper did a few years ago about torture and killings in Vietnam?

And Sen Kerry's (not John, the one from Neb) own statements that essentially say he committed war crimes in Vietnam.

Then of course there's Mai Lai. And the general statements one hears that almost every unit had its own Mai Lai. That's just the one that made it to a IG out of the chain of command and got some attention. Remember that Colin Powell was on the division staff of that unit and was working to cover up the incident before someone reported it to an IG outside his control.

So, we are supposed to believe that there's all this murder going on, but our troops were far to responsible to rough up someone?

Or, maybe we are just talking the usual cya semantics here. The type of crap that says the CIA doesn't torture. No, they just stood their in the room while the Vietnamese whom they had trained to torture did the actual torture. Therefore, the CIA doesn't torture.

A question no body seems interested in: why is the CIA videotaping hundred of hours of themselves torturing others? Is this SOP? Are there videotapes of other CIA torture crimes? Colombia maybe? Illegal Gulf Massacre I? What are the videotapes used for? Technique refinement? Training?

And are we supposed to believe the CIA still uses videotape? Seriously?

How are you going to abolish the CIA? By posting rants on CD?

The only way it can happen in the US is through politics. We'd need a majority in Congress and a President who believe in this. Can we do that, sure? Anything is possible. But the Democrats certainly won't do this. The CIA was started by a Dem President and no Dem Congress has ever even hinted at this. Usually a Dem Conngress won't even think of touching its budgets.

So, ok ... we can scream 'let's abolish the CIA.' But unless you are doing that just to make yourself feel better, how are you going to do it?

I'd suggest finding your local Green Party and helping them all you can. That's where you'd find candidates that would actually do this.

"missing" is the wrong word. That implies we'll find them again. "Destroyed" would be the more accurate word.

In fact, in general this headline underplays the whole thing. What it should say is something like "What is in the illegally destroyed evidence?"

I generally like the author and the article. But why do people on the left constantly pull their punches? Why don't we make it very clear even from just the headline that key evidence that could lead to charges has been illegally destroyed and probably can't be recovered?

PS ... the Dems just want any headline possible to avoid people noticing they are approving lots more money for more death, destruction, torture, etc to continue in Iraq with their blessings.

I had a close friend who came out of Viet Nam badly shaken. He was a special forces soldier in the Army assigned to intelligence gathering. One day when they took three peasant farmers up, as they often had, in a helicopter and began throwing them out one by one so the remaining men would answer questions, Willy realized when he looked into the peasant farmer's eyes that he really didn't know anything about anything they were talking about and that he had been throwing innocent people out of helicopters to their deaths and the lies of the U.S. Government all came crashing down around him at once, and Willy snapped.

We met him about two weeks later after he was got off a flight at the Kalamazoo airport with his Army duffle bag, the clothes on his back, and a 45 caliber service revolver. He had that wild, shifting look in his eyes that was all too familiar in those days. A loud slam of the door was enough to get him to jump up and wave his '45 around the living room. We had an anti war 24 hour vigil going in front of the Federal Court House in Kalamazoo, and Willy had wandered up and my friends brought him home and we gave him a place to live. So much for the lies about people showing disrespect for returning soldiers. We were the only ones who cared and helped people like Willy after he was no longer useful to the U.S. Government and they turned their backs on them and dropped them off to live on the street.

He eventually recovered and ended up marrying a very nice girl and setting up a successful woodworking business.

But torture and mass murder, without question, was committed by U.S. forces in Viet Nam.

Who gives a flying fuck anymore? It's long past time to ABOLISH the CIA instead of worry about the GOD DAMN MOTHERFUCKING tapes like a bunch of LOSERS !

I'm a totally sober Vietnam Vet OLDBADGERTOO, and two tours in SE Asia. I heard 'stories' about torture, never saw such, or knew any others who ever did. I did see a lot of help and compassion by our troops for South Vietnamese citizens.

I am well aware of many horrible things that happened in Vietnam, including the insane use of Agent Orange, testing DU ammo and Leutenant Calle, etc. We also had no business being in Vietnam in the first place. Torture may have occured, if so, there is a big difference between then and now.

If torture of any other human was conducted by our military or the CIA agents, it was not openly approved by our president, or our Attorney General that I am aware of. It is now, along with many other serious crimes.
During the Vietnam War, we had press coverage everyplace, there were young reporters sitting in fox holes on the front lines, and sat wide eyed next to us in bunkers during rocket attacks.

If torture was practiced, none of them ever reported it that I am aware of, and they didn't approve of that war at all. If things were not right, they reported it and that included the reporters for the Army and Air Force Times. There are always rumors of course, people love to talk, ___ especially if they aren't sober.

I'd like to echo the above comment about 9/11. The 9/11 Commission Report based much of their narrative on transcripts from the interrogations whose tapes were destroyed. In the coming years the American people may or may not realize that the term conspiracy theory is just a pejorative excuse not to examine the overwhelming evidence that 9/11 was a self inflicted attack. It's an excuse not to think objectively. So be better than that; go online, buy David Ray Griffin's Debunking 9/11 Debunking, and then join the ongoing fight to take this county back.

Naomi: Thanks AGAIN for putting some of the pieces together for us. It's so hard to connect the dots when info comes out in bits and pieces over such a long period of time.

Who is in charge of the FBI these days? Is the FBI still refusing to participate in torture? Who has oversite of the FBI?

A special prosecuter to investigate torture would be a good thing. But that process is extremely slow. Just look at the Scooter Libby mess. The only real avenue for true disclosure and stopping of the abuse is impeachment. And it has to start with Dick Cheney. And if government officials can be impeached after they have left government, then it would be a good idea to impeach Rumsfeld and Gonzales too.

Let the trials begin! Let the light of truth shine! I want my country back. Restore the Constitution and the Rule of Law. And squash the damn corpratists under the heel of the peoples' humanitarian rights!

If I had two daughters I could name them both "Naomi".

Good posts too.

"If you don't believe me, get an Iraq War vet drunk and listen in amazement. Abu G is small potatoes." You don't need to get them drunk - war so brutalises that they will post photographic and video records of their atrocities to the internet in order to boast of their macho deeds. It really is time we stopped idolising the warrior and his cult of death.

The hypocrisy is beyond reason and moral explanation. I have a scenario. Suppose some terrorists kidnapped the twins and threatened to torture them with waterboarding unless bush confessed that he was complicit in authorizing torture against ALL ethical and humane considerations Worldwide. Do you think HE would confess?

Trust is a brittle thing.
What American citizen can ever trust any part of our government again? Or either 'party'...

I'm afraid we might also learn a little more about 9/11 than Bush and the CIA want us to. And if you think I'm a conspiracy theorist, then why did Bush fight the formation of the 9/11 commission for over 400 days? And when it was finally formed why did the try to stack with his own people including Henry Kissenger whose client list includes the Bin Laden family? And why did the commission omit that Mohammed Atta was wired 100k by the head of the ISI and, worse, the commission's final word on who funded the 9/11 attacks was essentially--'we don't know' (yes we do, the mainstream news reported it, in pieces) and 'it's of no importance' (great investigation. Good luck getting a job as sherrif of shitsville.).

Bush is in the tapes, ___ laughing.

B/C are sending the kids more death and disease for 'Children's Week'.
All the shareholders of the companies that make war stuff and all the "representatives" of the People that don't stand up and call for immediately cleaning out the corruption in the Congress and the Whitehouse are equally responsible and guilty of the same crimes.

REVOLT.....ing!

No doubt the fight for retroactive immunity is an ispo facto proof of guilt, but Congress is as guilty as the administration by refusing to investigate. The apple is rotten to the core.

I have come to the conclusion that the country is lost. After reading this piece, a passage from Rousseau's Social Contract came to mind: "As soon as men cease to consider public service as the principal duty of citizens, and rather choose to serve with their purse than with their persons, we may pronounce the State to be on the very verge of ruin. Are the citizens called upon to march out to war? They pay soldiers for the purpose and stay at home. Are they summoned to council? They nominate deputies, and stay at home. And thus, in consequence of their idleness and money, they have soldiers to enslave their country and representatives to sell it."

Pelosi and several other Democratic leaders have known for a long time about these illegal activities and have chosen to say nothing. They have abdicated their duties of executive oversight. Congress will not save us. Congress is a large part of the problem, and unless it is replaced with citizens who truly want to serve the interests of the people, then we should have every expectation that it will continue to serve the corporate interests that have stolen our democracy.

Thank you Naomi Wolf for a fine piece of reporting.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/12/20031214-3.html

Bush, December 14, 2003: "Yesterday, December the 13th, at around 8:30 p.m. Baghdad time, United States military forces captured Saddam Hussein alive...For the vast majority of Iraqi citizens who wish to live as free men and women, this event brings further assurance that the torture chambers and the secret police are gone forever."

I guess forever doesn't last as long as it used to.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060906-3.html
Bush, September 6, 2006: "I want to be absolutely clear with our people, and the world: The United States does not torture. It's against our laws, and it's against our values. I have not authorized it -- and I will not authorize it."

Richard Nixon, November 17, 1973: "...I am not a crook."

Isn't it astounding that is takes a writer - not a top tier journalist from the NYT etc - to ask the relevant question? Journalism is often misunderstood as 'reporting' but it's really about asking the right questions.

What is missing on these tapes is the 'missing link' between humans and animals. Always said that the true horror of the Holocaust was that it was committed by people against other people, and that any country was capable of committing those atrocities. Never thought that the usa would be the nation that confirmed my opinion of those events. Yah, I know you're not burning the bodies, you're not transporting prisoners to the necropoli in order to be systematically 'eliminated'... Not yet anyway.

War is hell; the rest is just lies and damned lies!

If you don't believe me, get an Iraq War vet drunk and listen in amazement. Abu G is small potatoes.

This week is Children's Week in Iraq! Hooray for Bush! Hooray for Cheney! Makes you feel all warm and cozy inside for the holidays, don't it?

Nevermind that every serious study of war suggests that women and children are almost always the hardest hit in wars.

What is probably on the missing tapes is classified.
That's why you can't see them. It's also why you can't find them. It's secret. From you. From them. Even from the President. He can't be shown. He can only be told summaries in the DIB. Ask Dana Perino. She'll tell you.