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Are Americans Really 'Better Than That?'
A boyish, inquisitive face with an innocent look peered out from the Washington Post's lead story yesterday on torture. It was well groomed, pink-shirted John Kiriakou, a CIA interrogator who could just as easily pass for the local youth minister.
The report by the Post's Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen, which describes Kiriakou's experience in interrogating suspected terrorists, raises in an unusually direct way an abiding question: Should the United States of America be using forms of torture dating back to the Spanish Inquisition?
Nowhere is the mood of that infamous period better portrayed than in the famous Grand Inquisitor chapter of Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov . Dostoevsky was unusually gifted at plumbing the human heart. While it has been 127 years since he wrote Brothers Karamazov , he nonetheless captures the trap into which so many Americans have fallen in forfeiting freedom through fear. His portrayal of Inquisition reality brings us to the brink of the moral precipice on which our country teeters today. It is as though he knew what would be in store for us as fear was artificially stoked after the attacks of 9/11.
In the story, Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor (the Cardinal of Seville) ridicules Christ for imposing on humans the heavy burden of freedom of conscience, and explains how it is far better, for all concerned, to dull that conscience and to rule by deceit, violence, and fear:
"Didst thou forget that man prefers peace, and even death, to freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil?...We teach them that it's not the free judgment of their hearts, but mystery which they must follow blindly, even against their conscience.... In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet [and] become obedient...We shall tell them that we are Thy servants and rule them in Thy name.... we shall be forced to lie.... We shall tell them that every sin will be expiated if it is done with our permission." The Grand Inquisitor, in Brothers Karamazov
Kiriakou was one of the first interrogators to interview suspected terrorist Abu Zubayda in a Pakistani military hospital, where Zubayda was recovering from wounds suffered during his capture in early 2002. When he refused to provide information about al-Qaeda's infrastructure, he was flown to a secret CIA prison where, according to Kiriakou, the interrogation team strapped Abu Zubayda to a board, wrapped his nose and mouth in cellophane, and forced water into his throat. In just 35 seconds, viola! Abu Zubayda starting talking. That is called waterboarding.
The 15 & 16 Century Spanish inquisitors were not squeamish, and had little need for circumlocutions or euphemisms like "alternative set of procedures" that are part of President George W. Bush's lexicon. The Spanish called this procedure, quite plainly, "tortura del agua." Lacking cellophane, they inserted a cloth into the victim's mouth, forcing the victim to ingest water spilled from a jar starting the drowning process. Four centuries later, the Gestapo put out several technically improved releases of this operating system of torture, so to speak.
Quick; someone please tell newly confirmed Attorney General Michael Mukasey, who told reporters yesterday he still cannot decide whether waterboarding is torture.
Abu Zubayda: Poster Child
The information from John Kiriakou confirms what has long been a no-brainer but not definitively established before; namely, that President George W. Bush's "alternative set of procedures" for interrogation by C.I.A. includes waterboarding. Zubayda was given pride of place in George W. Bush's remarkable speech of Sept. 6, 2006, in which he bragged about the effectiveness of such procedures and appealed successfully for passage of the Military Commissions Act. That law allows a president to define what set of interrogation procedures can be used by the C.I.A. This is Bush on Sept. 6, 2006:
We believe that Zubayda was a senior terrorist leader and a trusted associate of Osama bin Laden...[and that] he had run a terrorist camp in Afghanistan where some of the 9/11 hijackers trained...We knew that Zubayda had more information that could save innocent lives, but he stopped talking...And so the CIA used an alternative set of procedures...The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively and determined them to be lawful.... But I can say the procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.
Zubayda was questioned using these procedures, and soon he began to provide information on key al-Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September the 11th. For example, Zubayda identified one of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's accomplices in the 9/11 attacks -- a terrorist named Ramzi bin al Shibh. The information Zubayda provided helped lead to the capture of bin al Shibh. And together these two terrorists provided information that helped in the planning and execution of the operation that captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
Bush claimed that his interrogation program had saved lives, and Kiriakou says the use of waterboarding "probably saved lives." We cannot know for sure if this is true. Off-the-record interviews with intelligence officials strongly suggest that there is much prevarication and exaggeration in president's claims about lives saved and operations disrupted, and that the his assertions merit no more credulity than other claims-for example, that Iran's nuclear weapons program poses a threat to the U.S., even though it has been stopped for four years.
Other U.S. intelligence officials take issue with the C.I.A.'s version of the questioning of Zubayda. Some say that initially he was cooperating with F.B.I. interrogators using a nonconfrontational approach, when C.I.A . assumed control and opted for more aggressive tactics. After that experience, the F.B.I. reportedly warned its agents to avoid interrogation sessions at which harsh methods were used.
As for credibility, never has a U.S. president's word been so cheapened as it is today. In late July 2007, we Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity joined with Justin Frank, MD, psychiatrist, professor at George Washington University Hospital, and author of "Bush on the Couch," to search for insight on how President Bush thinks. See "Dangers of a Cornered Bush,"from which we excerpt the following:
His pathology is a patchwork of false beliefs and incomplete information woven into what he asserts is the whole truth...He lies-not just to us, but to himself as well...What makes lying so easy for Bush is his contempt-for language, for law, and for anybody who dares question him.... So his words mean nothing. That is very important for people to understand.
This Is Oversight?
The past few weeks have witnessed an unseemly square dance in Congress, highlighting conflicting claims about what those who are supposed to be overseeing the intelligence community knew and when they knew it-about torture, about Iran, about many things. It is nothing short of an insult to the Founders that members of the House and Senate can find nothing more useful to do than wring their hands over their largely self-inflicted powerlessness.
Lawmakers have been so thoroughly intimidated by the White House that I get physically ill watching the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Jane Harman, Bob Graham, and Jay Rockefeller moan about how secretive and nasty the Bush administration has been. Harman complained recently that when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee some of the material (on interrogations) was so highly classified that she had to take a "second oath" to protect it.
What about the solemn oath they all take to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Should not that oath transcend and govern others that an administration might require for access to secret materials?
Senator Dick Durbin of the Senate Intelligence Committee has complained that he was aware that classified information did not justify the conclusion in 2002 that Iraq had unconventional weapons, but he could not say anything because it was classified! Durbin explained:
...We're duty-bound once we enter that room to respect classified information. Everything you hear is supposed to stay in the room...I certainly had enough to know that the statements that were made about mushroom clouds were not the conclusions of someone in the administration who was really being honest about the full debate. But you really know, walking in the room, what the rules of the game will be.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, has admitted knowing for several years about the Bush administration's eavesdropping on Americans without a court warrant. She was briefed on it when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee when Bush and Cheney took office. One key unanswered question is this: Was she told that within days of their taking office-that is, seven months before 9/11, the National Security Agency's electronic vacuum cleaner had already begun to suck up information on Americans-the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, not to mention the Constitution, be damned?
In a Washington Post op-ed of Jan. 15, 2006, Pelosi proudly advertised her uniquely long tenure on the Intelligence Committee and acknowledged that she was one of the privileged handful of lawmakers who were briefed. "This is how I came to be informed of President Bush's authorization for the NSA to conduct certain types of surveillance." She then proceeded to demonstrate the bowing and scraping characteristic of her subservient attitude toward the Executive Branch:
"But when the administration notifies Congress in this manner, it is not seeking approval. There is a clear expectation that the information will be shared by no one, including other members of the intelligence committees. As a result, only a few members of Congress were aware of the president's surveillance program, and they were constrained from discussing it more widely."
And so too, may we assume, with respect to torture? This is oversight?
Neutered Watchdogs: Rockefeller and Reyes
What can we expect from the current Senate and House oversight chairmen regarding the recently disclosed, deliberate destruction of two tapes of harsh interrogations of Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri? (Al-Nashiri is thought to have played a role in the attack on the USS Cole.) On the Senate side, expect nothing of Mr. Milquetoast Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who, it is said, is so afraid of his own shadow that he only ventures outdoors at night or in bad weather.
House Intelligence Committee Chairman Silvestre Reyes has a different kind of problem, and should recuse himself. He has been fawning all over José Rodriguez, the former CIA Deputy Director of Operations who ordered the tapes destroyed.
On August 16, 2007 Congressman Reyes told a conference in El Paso he considered Rodriguez "an American hero," proudly adding that, "with a few liberties that Hollywood takes, the exploits of José Rodriguez are documented in the FOX TV series "24." I am told that almost every episode of "24" includes at least one scene glorifying torture, usually with lead man Jack Bauer playing a main role. Reyes made it clear he is a big fan of Bauer and "24."
Were that not enough, after Rodriguez' role in destroying the interrogation tapes became public, Reyes immediately cautioned against allowing investigations to find just one "scapegoat" (no secret to whom he was referring). And so, unless Reyes does recuse himself, look for a "complete and thorough" investigation of the kind favored by the Nixon White House. (Just when you may have thought it could not get any worse!)
Torture as Technique: Stark Differences in View
On Sept. 6, 2006, the very day Bush bragged about his "alternative set of procedures for interrogation" and appealed for legislation allowing the C.I.A. to continue using them, the head of Army intelligence, Lt. Gen. John Kimmons, took a very different tack. Conducting a Pentagon briefing shortly before the president gave his own speech, Kimmons underscored the fact that the revised Army manual for interrogation is in sync with the Geneva treaties. Then, conceding past "transgressions and mistakes," Kimmons updated something I learned 45 years ago as a second lieutenant in Army intelligence:
"No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that."
Grabbing the headlines the following day, was Bush's admission that the CIA has taken "high-value" captives to prisons abroad for interrogation using "tough" techniques prohibited by the revised Army field manual-and by Geneva, for that matter. Gen. Kimmons displayed uncommon courage in facing into that wind.
How About- Stop Torture Because It's Wrong?
Have you noticed the shameful silence of our institutional churches, synagogues, and mosques? True, on occasion a professor of moral theology will speak out. Professor William Schweiker of the Chicago Divinity School, for example, has heaped scorn on the scenario of the lone knower of the facts whose torture is thought to be able to save millions of lives. He notes that such is "the stuff of bad spy movies and bad exam questions in ethics courses." Schweiker warns Christians, in particular:
"Not to fall prey to fear and questionable reasoning and this continue to support an unjust and vile practice that demeans the nation's highest political and moral ideals, even as it desecrates one of the most important practices and symbols (Baptism) of the Christian faith." http://marty-center.uchicago.edu/sightings/archive_2007/1129.shtml
And, to its credit, the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, a coalition of 130 religious organizations from left to right on the political spectrum, yesterday issued a strong call for the appointment of a special counsel to investigate the C.I.A.'s destruction of the videotapes of harsh interrogation techniques. NRCAT's founder, Princeton Theological Seminary professor George Hunsinger told the press that "to acknowledge that waterboarding is torture is like conceding that the sun rises in the east," adding:
"All the dissembling in high places that makes these shocking abuses possible must be brought to an end. But they will undoubtedly continue unless those responsible for them are held accountable. Clearly a joint probe by the Justice Department and the CIA -- agencies that are both seriously compromised -- is not enough. A special counsel is an essential first step."
But where are the official voices of the institutional churches, synagogues, and mosques in this country. In effect, they are ordaining Jack Bauer with their silence.
This Happened Before
With very few exceptions, the institutional churches in Nazi Germany kept a shameful silence, denying believers the moral authority and leadership so needed to stand up to Gestapo torturers. Indeed, many of the bishops-like military leaders, and jurists-swore a personal oath to Hitler. For his part, the Nazi leader moved quite quickly to ensure that there was a pastor-whether Evangelical or Catholic-in every parish in Germany. He saw this as a source of support and stability for his regime. And, sadly, it was.
While the Nazis were systematically torturing and even murdering defenseless victims, they kept repeating assurances that not a single hair of anyone's head would be harmed. (Shades of the familiar refrain "we do not torture.") And the propaganda machine under Joseph Goebbels made a fine art of what President Bush calls the need to "catapult the propaganda."
Sebastian Haffner, a young German lawyer in Berlin during the thirties kept a journal that his children subsequently published in book form as "Defying Hitler." His fascinating account of Germany in the thirties provides many thoughtful insights into prevailing attitudes and the lack of moral leadership. Haffner's journal depicted the kind of ambiance in which the approach of the Grand Inquisitor would, and did, flourish -"in the end they will lay their freedom at our feet [and] become obedient:"
"The weather in March 1933 was glorious. Was it not wonderful to...merge with festive crowds and listen to speeches about freedom and homeland? (It was certainly better than having one's belly pumped up with a water hose in some hidden secret police cellar.)"
Breeding and Breakdown
Haffner closes his chapter on 1933 with observations that, in my view, apply much too aptly to America today:
"The sequence of events is, as you see, not so unnatural. It is wholly within the normal range of psychology, and it helps to explain the almost inexplicable. The only thing that is missing is what in animals is called 'breeding.' This is a solid inner kernel that cannot be shaken by external pressures and forces, something noble and steely, a reserve of pride, principle, and dignity to be drawn on in the hour of trial. It is missing in Germans. As a nation we are soft, unreliable, and without backbone. That was shown in March 1933. At the moment of truth, when other nations rise spontaneously to the occasion, the Germans collectively and limply collapsed. They yielded and capitulated, and suffered a nervous breakdown."
C.I.A.'s John Kiriakou says he is now convinced that waterboarding is torture and he is against it. He adds, "Americans are better than that."
But Are We Better Than That?
Sadly, that remains to be seen. With virtually all religious institutions, politicians, and educators all squandering what moral authority they have left, the Jack Bauer culture threatens to win out in the end. We cannot let that happen.
The upcoming duel on the missing interrogation tapes will again bring the issue of torture front and center. And, strangely, waterboarding and other Jack Bauer tradecraft tools still enjoy a strong constituency.
Here's where we come in; for we are the ones we've been waiting for. As one of my intelligence alumni colleagues noted recently, this is about our country losing its soul. Let's rise to the occasion and stop unconscionable policies like torture. True patriotism goes well beyond a flag-on-the-lapel. As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. noted, "Sometimes you have to put your body into it." Besides, we need to keep the water hose from pumping up our bellies and those of our loved ones. I only wish that were as remote a possibility as it was before President Bush and his associates came up with their "alternative set of procedures."
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in Washington, DC. He was an Army officer and then a C.I.A. analyst for 27 years, and now serves on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
This article appeared first on Consortiumnews.com.
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Show All" MikeBinSC December 13th, 2007 4:36 pm
Rebel, Richard, Pancho,
..."
Another thing people can do is that when we [need] or even just want some product, then to BUY SECOND-HAND; even third-hand.
Far too many people regularly keep replacing totally good products in order to follow the "fashion" "movement", so the more people buy second- and third-hand products that are still good and fill the need or want, the more people getting these perfectly good products will be able to help offset the purchases of always NEW products.
I don't know about the U.S., but buying second-hand in Canada, often anyway, means NO sales taxes for the purchaser; and even if that is also applied in the U.S. where sales taxes are relatively insignficant, it's still a savings, and prevents or counters the "fashion movement" of always buying new.
And of course this really has nothing to do with McGovern's article, for people buying new products, never second-hand ones, so much less third-handers, this does not necessarily mean that these people will be immoral or ignorant to the point of supporting wars of aggression, torture, and other crimes of govt.
Plenty of poor Americans also supported these wars of aggression; heck, around 77% of ALL Americans did, and there must've been plenty of poor and low income Americans in this huge grouping, I believe.
Nonetheless, environmentally and economically, it's BAD to be WASTEFUL, and not purchasing good second- and third-hand products instead of junking them, with all the electronics ending up being criminally dumped such that the products toxically poison peoples' environments, always the poor or poorest of course, this all needs to be stopped.
It's infantile and perhaps insane to think that we always need to purchase products in the new form. An old tractor that "does the job" is much less expensive to the purchaser who'll be making use of the machine, and keeping it in use instead of unnecessarily and wastefully buying a new tractor is good for the economy and society in general. It encourages corporations to be predatory, instead of wise, socially and environmentally responsible; and it encourages responsible living.
Odd topic given the article this page is for, though.
Rebel, Richard, Pancho,
The only way to stop this train is to stop buying and get the rest of the mindless consumers in this country to stop buying. Better a recession than a melt down. In the aftermath of the recession/depression the sheeple will elect more responsible leadership and take the keys away from the irresponsible kids(Neo-Fascists) at the wheel now.
Watch the short video - www.storyofstuff.com
With two thirds of all economic activity in this country coming from people like us buying stuff, we can bring it all to a halt by only buying things that are necessities for life. DO IT NOW, BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!
We have killed Indians, Filipinos, Cubans. We enslaved blacks. Unfortunately we have a long tradition of abuse. I wish I knew how to stop this insanity.
We have the ability to be better.
President Bush has recently been enjoying a presumption by evangelicals that he was right to resist government money being spent on destroying human embryos for stem cell research. This is because scientists recently found a way to make stem cells from skin cells, a sort of "providence" of (in the minds of those, especially, who believe in the idea of God "providing") a method that does not require the ethical problem of destroying any embyonic lives.
We on the left should now have enough FAITH (and INSIST to conservatives and the world that we do) that whatever "intelligence" we really need about terrorism secrets will be provided to us without any kind of torture or waterboarding or anything similar. It is perfectly reasonable for believers in God to assume this, and perfectly reasonable for non-believers in God, as well, to assume that if we firmly renounce torture that perhaps good luck or a sort of "what goes around comes around" humanistic good karma will be visited on us. Right is sometimes just right, whether derived from religion or elsewhere.
In this way, there is similarity in the "moral" debate about stem cell research and the "moral" debate about torture. Using no torture ever is an expression of FAITH too, and liberals ought to be talking about it in these terms. We Americans might be quite surprised at some good things that could happen to our country if we just stand up and force ourselves to be "better than that."
The argument that "But what if we know this guy has the secrets to a terror attack?" is a load of relativistic junk to justify a National Sin (torture policy), and LIBERALS, too, are permitted to "preach" against such spiritual error, perhaps from several religions, even from humanism or atheism.
In a world where appearance is everything, the wholesome face of John Kiriakou is how evil is packaged today. There is no telling how many gullible Americas will now embrace waterboarding because that nice young man has told them it works and saves lives.
No, Americans are proving their selves to be no better than your average compassionate human being anywhere in the world. America has no monopoly on compassion. America's mainstream segment of an obviously lowbrow citizen population seems to be increasing as time fades into yesterday. The good in America, and there are still many suffer along with the bad and we are represented by the fearful and the obtuse. Yet another fading star is the dream called America…
We have met the enemy and he is us.
We Americans fight to protect our sacred Constitution on the battlefield, through protest and social action and through the ACLU yet the republican party destroys the document at every turn. If we continue to torture and bomb innocent civilians in the name of national security we become no better than the Nazis. It's unreal to me that the last best hope for mankind now acts like the very fascists and terrorists we demonize....
Thank you Ray. I am in awe of your capacity to craft thoughts and evoke passions.
Please share this article with as many as possible. It is invaluable in explaining how and why we are losing our country.
The D-Day landing beaches are a block down the street from my home. I never go down there now for a walk without a terrible sense of shame that we haven't lived up to what they died for in the thousands!
People around here sometimes tell me of their childhood memories of "the boys," as they say in English. And they go on that no matter what Bush does--and believe me they don't approve--nothing ever will make them forget "our boys."
But it looks so often like Americans have forgotten the incredible courage it took to jump off those landing boats into the water that's not very warm even on a sunny day in June, jump in and then wade to shore under heavy fire, with barely any chance of survival.
Don't we have evidence--documentary and photographic--of waterboarding from the Philippine-American war and from Vietnam, as well as documentation of other tortures perpetrated in Asia and Latin America by CIA and other agencies or departments of the US government, including training, support, participation, and funding for death squads? Thus, our behavior in the Middle East is not new. So why are we surprised?
"....They yielded and capitulated, and suffered a nervous breakdown."
Here we will call it "The Great Shattering". Everything that was, is no more. All the illusions are dead. Hope is gone along with any sense of the future. Hopeless grey now forever. Fascism, Corporate Feudalism, economic collapse, environmental collapse.
That's when the food trucks stop making deliveries in the suburbs. At that point you may or may not hear the announcement that your State is now independent and has appropriated the Federal Arsenals in their territory including the WMDs. And then it gets really bad.
The Great Shattering. America made it happen. We made our own Krakatoa.
Peace.
Only human-like animal mentality condones torture, as the soul and spirit is eroded with each turning of the screw, for both the tortured, and worse yet for the torturer.
We as a culture lose our collective humanity when torture happens anywhere on this planet,
clearly so when we ignore the occurrence of torture,
but especially so when we condoned or laud it as good.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
we are the most relentlessly polled and propagandized population the earth has ever seen. our folk wisdom is engorged with adages such as "you gotta go along to get along" and "you can't fight city hall." the result? just like the germans in 1933, we went limp when faced with our moment of truth, which was when the supreme court ordered the state of florida to stop recounting its votes in december 2000.
the first one to go flaccid in the face of incipient fascism was senate president and future nobel laureate al gore (who was no doubt exhausted from fighting to keep ralph nader out of the "debates" and off as many ballots as possible). the dismal litany of lies, bluster and bullying, of intransigence and obstructionism, of war crimes uncounted which waft daily from the white house, are all directly traceable to gore's abject capitulation. average citizens, seeing how their "leaders" reacted, could perhaps be forgiven for not getting more worked up than they did. no wonder the Ds are desperate to hang the last seven years around the necks of the greens.
americans as individuals are potentially better than that, but as a body politic, they need a megadose of spiritual and moral viagra to stiffen them up.
Why don't you CIA A-holes go shit on someone else's desk?
The ongoing farce of all those goofs in the CIA and the other U.S. "secret" agencies will not water down the true meaning of torture, regardless of how many oportunities they make use of in disseminating their "waterboarding as torture" nonsense. They only fool the people who no longer are necessary participants for the coming change.
After the failed revolt in Cuba, in 1953, Batista's henchmen tortured the survivors of the rebellion with real torture. They cut out the eyes of one young participant and then held them in an outstreched palm in front of the young man's sister, who also was caught in the aftermath of the rebellion. That, and much more, is the kind of bloody torture that the U.S. and their evil scumbags in the CIA taught to their alumni in the infamous School of the Americas.
The difference is one of scale. No amount of being made uncomfortable will ever be regarded in the same way as having parts of your body cut off without anesthesia. And those evil scumbags in those "secret" agencies are going to pay for their obscene crimes, and there will be no impunity.
This piece is way too long. It can be condensed dramatically.
Waterboarding is not a Spanish Invention. It does not date back
to the 15th or 16th century either.
Waterboarding is a Swedish Invention, widely known in Scandinavia
and Central Europe as "Swedish Drink" or in German "Schwedentrunk"
where You simply make a person die by holding a funnel into his/her
mouth and liberally filling, as a matter of fact any type of fluid, into the
body until the eyes pop out.
So much for that.
Torture has never saved a single live. To make that statement is Blasphemy.
Always was and always will be. Torture is Human. It is part of our history.
Now it is the time to make torture once and for all history. Don't hide behind
the "...saving lifes..." argument, as the Nazis would say that they saved
many lifes by gassing people out of existence, that were a threat to the German
Nation at that time.
Torture is what it is. A precursor to death, given the possibility, that the tortured
individual is incapable of 'speaking'.
People that kill other people, torture them as well. Just like that.
Because they want to.
It doesn't matter how gruesome You die if it is for the sake of the president and your priest.
It is a wonder that all of the mirrors in DC
have yet to be 'turned to stone' and shattered,
from peering at the souless gapping husks
of our once proud democracy
I find Pelosi's (and others') defence of their collusion in this crime - that they were bound by confidentiality - pathetic. As a union representative, I have had on occasion to talk to management representatives in confidence about certain issues. At times, it was damned hard to convince those whom I represented that it was necessary to do so to protect their interests, and that I was not conspiring in secret to do a deal that would sell them down the river. Fortunately, I was never in Pelosi's position of having criminal activity revealed to her in confidence. Even so, had I been, I'm sure I would have done what I would have done as a union rep. - resigned from the committee involved, or refused to take part in further meetings on the grounds that I had no confidence (same word - interesting, eh?) in the committee's effectiveness to do what was right. Just refusing to play by rules that are designed to disadvantage you IS a valid game plan.
The piece is too long because that is standard practice for that CIA scum. They believe that the more time someone has invested in an article, the more likely they are to be brainwashed by the CIA's simpleton's spiel. They also like posting long and medium-to-long posts in succession or in groupings because they also believe that inundates the readers and makes them stupid. It's a modus operandi which derives from the personnel that the CIA hires, who are moraless, of a general mediocre intelligence and unable to adapt to the changing times where the sheer volume of internet traffic will not advance their cause. And, of course, they, and not all regular citizens, are the people who are culpable in the crimes against humanity perpetuated by their evil organization.
Ray asks: Are Americans really "better than that"?
Quick answer: No, sadly.
Long answer: ALL people suck.
Simple question (seriously, I don't know the answer): As a result of information obtained by "enhanced interrogation techniques", has anyone been captured, tried and convicted? If so, what were the "crimes"?
You have got to be joking!
Government employees like Kiriakou can admit publicly, on tv and in newspapers that they have broken the law, tortured, lied to courts and lied to congress but the people's representatives in congress such as Pelosi would be arrested if they told the public about the lawbreaking that they have been informed of!
Your representative Harmon's only recourse is to write "secret protest letters" to the government employees who are themselves breaking the law? Harmon said on tv that she hopes that one day her secret protest letter can be "declassified".
Imagine if Pelosi had been told that Bush's agents are secretly murdering, say for example, red headed people, would she tell us? Murder is as much a crime as torture. Is there any crime that she would deem worthy of letting Americans know about?
today, Americans are no better than whale shit.
You make Saddam and OBL look like saints. you make Hilter look like a misunderstood child, you make Stalin look like Mother Teresa, you make Idi Amin look like Tiger Woods. You make Pol Pot look like Mr. Rogers.
You are the worst hypocrites on the planet. Your democracy is worth shit if you fail to protect the miniumum human standards of treatment to your fellow man.
In short, you are all scum, until you kick ALL these criminals(including Pelosi) out of office and hang them from the Washington monument as a warning to others.
It gives me pleasure to see that Peru at least has not rested in bringing justice to the criminal that ran their country into the ground in the 90's. Would that we are able to do the same, eventually. I am completly agreeable with including every congressman who voted for funding this war in the proceedings.
What is this? Lies of Bush/Cheney were classified, and Congress people couldn't talk about it? How sickening.
However, I don't buy their lame excuse, neither do I believe in them"…wring their hands over their largely self-inflicted powerlessness." No, sir, they're in it all together. All of them are liars and crooks extraordinaire. Will someone please save America from Bush/Cheney and the AIPAC cabal?
But, even assuming that CIA torture tapes were not destroyed, the public would not get to see them, just like Abu Ghraib tapes that were only seen by some Bush buddy senators, and stayed unseen and undebated by the public.
No one should believe the Liar-in-Chief claiming that torture saved a million lives, unless it led to the discovery of a couple of ticking nukes in Washington and New York. That's also true about the claim that torture led to the capture of high-level Al Qaeda operatives. Because Al Qaeda will know immediately when one of their heavy weights is captured, and as a consequence, they will change their ways to stay ahead of the game.
"Only human-like animal mentality condones torture..."
I must protest. We locusts certainly don't torture our own. Maybe we're too stupid or un-evolved to do so.
I can't speak for the cats who play with their prey, but we think they've been near humans too long.
Around the swarm when someone acts badly we accuse them of human behavior.
At 43 years of age, the America that I grew up in was drastically different than today. People helping one another shovel snow, people just being neighborly.
Even while knowing full well that the liberal constituency has been silenced in the media and all we are exposed to is the neocon agenda, and knowing how many millions of people like myself know the truth about what is going on, like those of you here on CD, there really are Bush supporters out there. And to hear them talk about things that they know nothing about is both frightening and sickening.
Have you heard any of the repugnican debates, when Rudy talks about supporting torture and war and the crowd goes wild and cheers. How sickening is that.
I am coming to the sad sad sad realization that America is not only not better than that, not compassionate at all, and in general not very nice human beings anymore. The national IQ must be well below that of normal average intelligence if they believe anything that Bush Co. and the media tell them. To believe that Bush could win an election legit, or to believe their version of what happened on 9/11 or that Iraq is anything other than a money making scheme,(from your pockets into theirs) you would have to be completely brain dead.
So there it is America is both discompassionate and brain dead. And I begin to wonder why all of my fellow Americans here on Common Dreams or that listen to Air America Radio or go to Truthout.Org, and are well informed, well I wonder a couple things, how we maintain our sanity during all of this, and why we do absolutely nothing about it. Where are the revolutionaries? Where are our fighting Rebel forces physically taking back our country? Cuz as you all know there are no real political candidates anymore from either party, and there arent any real elections anymore either.
Anyone, anyone, Bueller....
"...how we maintain our sanity..."
I tried humor but the sanity went away anyway. Perhaps Sanity Clause will visit my home soon and bring me some.
I foresee next year as the perfect storm. After the nation suffers through the winter and next spring brings worse, things will change mightily.
Which way will the pendulum swing?
It is incumbent upon us, both human and insectoid, to try our damnest to make that change be one of positivity and progress.
Good luck to you all.
Proverbs 30:27: the locusts have no king
liberal with an attitude December 12th, 2007 3:18 pm
"Where are the revolutionaries?"
I don't know, liberal, I'm on the outside looking in. for me it's kind of like going back in time and corresponding with nineteen thirties Germans. I'm serious. I always wondered why such a modern, educated, technically advanced society would just self-destruct like that. I'm thinking "what could I say to help them see what is in store for them".
There's at least one thing you Americans have going for you, though. Those of you with memories can learn from the mistakes of the past. Disaster isn't inevitable, unless all you do is whinge and rant on the internet like me!
There is no way that waterboarding is Constitutional.
An American is what he/she is because of the Constitution. Without our Constitution what are we? Where are our loyalties with no Constitution?
So anyone that would support a violation of Constitutional law (Waterboarding) cannot claim to be an American based on the Oath Of Citizenship.
Here is the Oath Of Citizenship
A "Domestic Enemy" is a resident of the United States who attempts to subvert the Constitution.
Therefore, a person supporting waterboarding is an enemy of the United States in rejection of their own citizenship and thus an 'Enemy Combatant' under bush's current directive.
The short answer is "No".
Hang the baby Harp seal killers, canuckchuck.
TheLorax December 12th, 2007 3:47 pm
"There is no way that waterboarding is Constitutional"
Proving the above may not be as difficult a case to crack as the penchant of your fearless leader to to decide for himself (unilaterally) the "borders" of the constitution.
I'll give you two examples (even though you are probably familiar with them).
One, Bush decides that part of Cuba, Guantanemo, is outside the US constitution and sovereign Cuban territory (even though it is under permanent US occupation).
Two, the UK, according to Bush, is inside the US constitution. His lawyers, in British court, recently argued that the US constitution made it legal to kidnap British citizens in London England. According to an obscure American bounty hunter law, from the nineteenth century.
Your leader decides for you, as well as for the rest of us, where the US constitution begins and ends. So the Chinese water torture doesn't even have to be constitutional, according to Mr. Bush, for him to use it.
My local paper ran a poll two weeks ago asking if it were appropriate to waterboard our enemies. Almost 60 percent said yes. The next week the question asked if it were appropriate for our enemies to waterboard our troops. Almost the same number said no. I wrote a letter to the editor commenting on the hypocrisy and they printed it, but I fear the irony is lost on most of the respondents.
Unfortunately, most Americans really aren't "better than that."
If our choice of entertainment is any measure... the "Saw" torturetainment series has grossed nearly $400M domestic, similar ilk - "Hostel" "Hills Have Eyes," "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" - all did so well, the sequels keep on coming. "24" top-rated, award-winning torturetainment for 5 years. Most popular cable news: FOX, where every bobbing head believes torture is as American as it gets.
But that's just entertainment. Right?
LOCUSTS, ROACHES, SPIDERS, PLANTS, REPTILES, and other MITOCRONDRIA -- My regrets and apologies to all possible non-human sentience, for denigrating your spirits and over generalizing about your laudable and repugnant anti-torturing principles.
Were it true that mere HUMANS were as well gifted, and compassionate, this world would be vastly different place.
I bless the many legs and stems that each of you waive freely,
in defiance of lawlessness and mendacity of humans that choose to act so,
that make the T-Rex dinosaurs look like vegetarians and monks.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
America - the most disgusting country on the face of the earth.
Americans have a history of genocide, but it isn't called such by the history book makers, because history is written by the winners.
I agreee with the German lawyer. Why be tortured in a cell for people who are outside cheering your misery?
There were Germans who fought against Hitler. They were the communists, socialist, and trade unionists immortalized in Niemoller's lament. They were killed. What good did it do?
This whole martyring yourself for people who don't care, or who support the government as it tortures you, is not my cup of tea.
From www.britannica.com: "An accessory after the fact is often not considered an accomplice but is treated as a separate offender. Such an offender is one who harbours, protects, or assists a person who has already committed an offense or is charged with committing an offense. Usually the offense must be a felony."
From McGovern's Article: "House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, has admitted knowing for several years about the Bush administration's eavesdropping on Americans without a court warrant. She was briefed on it when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee when Bush and Cheney took office."
TheLorax. You've touched a soft spot. I really object to the Oath of Citizenship linked in your blog. There are certain provisos therein which under a W presidency, take away the full benefits of that which is thereby obtained.
I think that's exemplary of a larger problem eminate in a representational democracy designed without the technology presently available. We could easily have some sort plebescite system on policy matters, and it wouldn't even have to be binding to be effective. It might even restore some credibility and participation in government.
I hear all the arguments against such an idea, lots of them, but I think they are ultimately outweighed by the possibility of such a system. I mean maybe we can try to be inclusive instead of to maintain such a plethora of artificial barriers. Since it would not have to be of Constitutional dimension, it could just be legislatively created.
I have a few questions to post here for response:
What does it mean to be Pro-Life? Once exited the womb, this "life" is expendable. So, Pro-Life is really Pro-Choice. They just get to choose when to be Pro. Capital Punishment; war; police shootings of "suspects"; denial of universal healthcare to all, whether they can pay for it or not.
Why doesn't Ray McGovern tell all he knows about those sitting in government and out of government, from his time with a Top Secret clearance? Is there more he knows that he is not allowed to tell because of his oath as a CIA agent?
Why doesn't Valerie Plame print an unexpurgated edition of her book? Why doesn't she expose all the secrets about her work with WMD so we can know all the truth? Would it implicate the sitting president and vice president? Why Not? Daniel Ellsberg published the Pentagon Papers and served time for his heroism.
Whenever a former CIA agent speaks, I wonder how they can withhold what they know when it could save lives. If using torture is supposed to save lives even though it is "illegal", why not exposing "state secrets" for the same purpose? How many lives, both U.S. and foreign, could have been saved if some one who knew the lies Bush/Cheney, Powell, Rove, et al were telling had risked their lives and social standing for the good of all?
There are many more questions I'd like to ask, but this is a start.
peace,
st john
Some are, the ones that make the country work in spite of the best efforts of the neocons and theocrats in power. There are some people in Vermont that have an answer that is refreshingly American, secede from the unholy union. Declare your state a republic.
Its either that or have a revolution. The dems and repubs won't change things, there is no one with any decent visions that serves this nation so do like the Founding Fathers said have a revolution. I wonder which side the army would be on?? Possibly the coming Depression may force the issue, short of oil, short of water and short of cash and short of good sense!!
That America uses torture galls at my very core. We are better than that, and that's why there's a coverup -- why the videos were destroyed, etc. ad nauseum. Unfortunately, we have a history, but that does not allow the wink-and-nod acceptance elicited by this administration. The worst of our history does not justify or exemplify our conduct now. We've got to walk the talk, and make any kind of effort to live up to the idea which is America. It's how the dream of America becomes reality, and our past is not reduced to mere propaganda. We are what we eat, so to speak.
I really feel about the opposite when it comes to this administration. It gives the old-boy wink-and nod to the dream, silently signalling to its many parts that they'll continue to feed to boobs and bumpkins that line of talk, but with words that have new meanings, and that the exploitation of the world will continue in favor of the elite and more beloved of their god.
My sentences grow too long. These folks are ripping us off, all of us. All of our dreams.
"KEM PATRICK December 13th, 2007 5:38 am
Glad you were able to present all of that prose in such a brief format Mike, __ very interesting."
YES, T'WAS LONG, wasn't it. Oh well, all CD needs is a real discussion forum, for those permit returning to edit posts, which CD doesn't allow more than very few minutes to do here, and only once.
"twoblueday December 13th, 2007 9:44 am
...
I wonder why nobody these days blames the torturers along with the governments. ..."
Fine question, and what's the answer? Well, take down the top officials criminally guilty in the torture, and then it'll be feasible to also go after the individuals who directly committed the torture, including those who did not quite do that, but did help to criminally cover it up.
After all, if the top officials are not taken down, then they think that they have some perverted strategic need to keep the servants carrying out the direct torture around, handy, for whenever the next tortures are to be applied. They won't let their perverted instruments of torture, the people directly carrying it out, to be taken away.
But as for the mass media, and perhaps the general public, not focusing on the direct torturers, I guess this is easier to immediately fault; yet, I'm not sure. What needs to be done is to first take down the commanders and high-ranking officials of the different branches of govt that are involved and guilty.
How ever we reason it, I think we will always come back to square one, that the top officials need to be addressed for their crimes FIRST.
Can the direct torturers while not the top officials, and they'll get new direct torturers.
" Kernel December 13th, 2007 10:11 am
Mike Corbiel__very good discussion of the whole subject of agression. ..."
MUCH appreciated, Kernel; although it certainly could be edited down. In part, I was emphasising how sort of crazy it is to focus as much attention as is placed on the torturer of relatively very few people, while millions have been murdered, massacred, countries destroyed, etc.; and we all do know that the Nuremberg statement that war of aggression is THE SUPREME CRIME, the worst and most arrogant of all crimes, was very right. And we get more focus on the torture than we do on this other far more extreme crimes; without meaning to say that torturer is any way acceptable, for it's absolutely NOT. It's ALL HELL on earth criminality.
And I meant nothing offencive in regards to Maher Ahrar (spelling?), just to be clear about that to everyone who has read or will read that part of my prior post. It was not the point of including his story, but I believe what I wrote does bear some sarcasm, so that could leave some people perceiving real offence.
"barely human December 13th, 2007 10:29 am
... Alice Miller points out how abusive parenting produces many similar alterations of brain development."
YES, it definitely does, and it shows a LOT, strongly with G.W. Bush, whose mother is a real example of a parent who seriously abused her son or child; in addition to G.H.W. Bush having been ... certainly nothing of a father to G.W. It's a psychotically demented family pretty much ... in whole, and it's actually easy to see this. We need some of the relevant information to arrive at this realisation, but the information has been provided, enough, in various news reports and analyses by activists against war, ..., all this hellishness; but we only need a little of that information to be able to quickly realise that G.W. does ... sometimes anyway, if not even often, seem to be almost a mirror image of his wicked witch of the West, U.S.
He was mentally conditioned to be the way he is, and as sad and awful as it is, we at least can be confident that he is NOT the real president. He's not even allowed to make any decisions besides when he needs to go to the toilet, or to have something to eat, and of course when he chooses NOT to READ. The real rulers don't need him to read, for they don't plan on him being real leader anyway.
"MVC December 13th, 2007 10:35 am
...
I wonder how many people would vote "yes" if the question were this:
"Waterboarding is a form of torture whereby a victim is forced to inhale water until their lungs are filled. A doctor is present and the operation is aborted before the victim dies. The technique has the advantage that it leaves no visible marks on the victim's body. Do you think it is acceptable for the US to use waterboarding?"
..."
Just a reminder, the title of the article is,
"ARE AMERICANS REALLY 'BETTER THAN THAT?'".
Ray McGovern has already answered your question, I believe; imo or imho, whichever you prefer in this case.
Iow, I would pose the question differently to Americans. I think it'd be not very successful for positive results, although that depends on which results you're really hoping to obtain, good or bad, well, it'd likely be better to ask Americans if they'd be for their govt applying cruel, painful, ... torture if they were put through the experience in terms as real and mean, cruel, ... as the detainees who've been tortured. If they majoritively respond 'Yes, we're still for torture', then have the govt pass a new law requiring that ALL citizens who are pro-torture be put through the real experience; not hypothetically, but really put through it.
Stupid people often need to experience the real "thing" before understanding that it's not something they ever want to experience again and to never support it being done unto others.
"colleen December 13th, 2007 11:15 am
...
In a poll I read in the Economist 60% of Republicans supported the use of torure and 20% of Democrats supported it.
I think we are dealing with some very dangerous and thoughtless people who are in positions of power. And I mean the Republican party.
Imo these people are so crazy that it has literally frightened the Democrats who are in power, who are hoping to regain more power and stop this craziness coming out of the Republican Party which is even supported by some Democrats.
..."
Stopping the craziness, the DP? Remember that the Clinton administration, which served two terms, was really no more innocent than the GHW Bush administration, and the former was war criminal far longer than the latter was. Few DP members of Congress opposed the ruling elites' pal Bill Clinton.
Most DP Congress members agreed to authorise recourse to war on Iraq during fall 2002, which was a time when it was already [[OBVIOUS]] that this war could NEVER be justified. Let's not forget that the Bill Clinton administration is extremely guilty of commanding a war of aggression on Kosovo, hellbent corrupting the Rambouilet Accord with no need of any help from the RP, and continuing the extremely criminal bombardments on Iraq over many years, and regularly en masse.
I don't know if it's true, or not, but read an article months back in which the author said that the DP is historically more guilty than the RP is as far as committing war crimes and criminal wars goes; having done it many more times than the RP has. So that author said anyway.
We can't excuse the DP on any legitimate and fair, just bases for its support of these totally criminal wars of aggression, which is not only about Iraq and Afghanistan, but also wars not reported as being that in African countries, and the criminal coup d'etat against the govt of President Aristide and his supporters in Haiti in Feb. 2004, which was an ACT OF WAR of aggression. And we have the current matter of NOT getting the U.S. ruling elites' noses and their puppet-instrument forces known as NATO and the U.S. military OUT of Kosovo, where they have no right to be trying to coerce anything. They're using coercion on the UNSC to exercise the coercion for the separation of Kosovo, and only for ... RACKET; AGAIN, as usual.
Plus, we have the hellbent U.S. military build-up in Eastern European countries, as well as in former USSR states, all the way to the borders of Russia.
The DP is just as criminally guilty as the RP is. NEITHER of them is remotely innocent in any of these extreme crimes, hypocrisies and hegemony; except for relatively few members of the two parties. Even if there are more of the latter people in the DP than there are in the RP, the DP nonetheless is overwhelmingly corrupt as HELL. And there's nothing innocent about hell.
I like Colleen's post, it's well enough stated, but I think it's excluding some considerations.
MOST of the members of Congress, Senate, DoJ, i.e., Dept of Justice, CIA, FBI, and so on, they mostly ALL know what they are really doing and what is really going on, SO, NO EXCUSES for them.
IMO, anyway.
This might "bruise" all you fine Yanks' sensibilities but, Big business and whores in government have screwed us so out of shape that the majority of you lemmings insist you have it better than anywhere else. DESPITE the fact that you're CHEATED by your employers, your "government" EVERY SINGLE DAY and you continue to bleat about how great it is here. Michael Moore has SHOVED THE TRUTH down your throats in movies like SICKO and you all STILL gush love for this, the REAL Evil Empire. Since I'm too old and poor to get the hell out of dodge, I'll wait, bitch alot, and finally, when the fecal matter hits the fan and the "elite" hop their private jets for Dubai et al, I'll squeel with laughter as this murderous nation of fools swirls into the blackness of nations come and gone through out history. In layman's terms,...you all pretty much suck as much as this cesspool of a dying empire does or you NEVER would have let them get away with all this.
From a poll on CNN of over 81,000 Americans:
Are there circumstances in which waterboarding of prisoners is acceptible?
Yes = 55% (44,780 votes)
No = 45% (36,448 votes)
These are the results as of 8:30 am 12/12/07 (US central time).
Martin Luther King, Jr. once said: "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
The majority of Americans are for torture-- its not just the American government.
55%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or, put another way
Are there circumstances in which waterboarding of American prisoners is acceptible?
I think I saw such a survey somewhere else today, and the results were almost exactly the opposite.
peace,
st john
WE ARE THE 801 -- Yes they maybe be for the idea of it, as you said:
"The majority of Americans are for torture"
But I doubt that assurance will be all too helpful to
deal with the time soon when they'll have a chance to find
out how it feels, directly from hier Father's
most experienced "anti-insurgence" convincers.
What IDIOTS, thinking that this is about only
about dark skinned savages who hate our "freedoms"
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
Sorry, my compassion ran out … … …
Those characters always know who to pole, ...er poll.