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Are Americans Really 'Better Than That?'
A boyish, inquisitive face with an innocent look peered out from the Washington Post's lead story yesterday on torture. It was well groomed, pink-shirted John Kiriakou, a CIA interrogator who could just as easily pass for the local youth minister.
The report by the Post's Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen, which describes Kiriakou's experience in interrogating suspected terrorists, raises in an unusually direct way an abiding question: Should the United States of America be using forms of torture dating back to the Spanish Inquisition?
Nowhere is the mood of that infamous period better portrayed than in the famous Grand Inquisitor chapter of Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov . Dostoevsky was unusually gifted at plumbing the human heart. While it has been 127 years since he wrote Brothers Karamazov , he nonetheless captures the trap into which so many Americans have fallen in forfeiting freedom through fear. His portrayal of Inquisition reality brings us to the brink of the moral precipice on which our country teeters today. It is as though he knew what would be in store for us as fear was artificially stoked after the attacks of 9/11.
In the story, Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor (the Cardinal of Seville) ridicules Christ for imposing on humans the heavy burden of freedom of conscience, and explains how it is far better, for all concerned, to dull that conscience and to rule by deceit, violence, and fear:
"Didst thou forget that man prefers peace, and even death, to freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil?...We teach them that it's not the free judgment of their hearts, but mystery which they must follow blindly, even against their conscience.... In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet [and] become obedient...We shall tell them that we are Thy servants and rule them in Thy name.... we shall be forced to lie.... We shall tell them that every sin will be expiated if it is done with our permission." The Grand Inquisitor, in Brothers Karamazov
Kiriakou was one of the first interrogators to interview suspected terrorist Abu Zubayda in a Pakistani military hospital, where Zubayda was recovering from wounds suffered during his capture in early 2002. When he refused to provide information about al-Qaeda's infrastructure, he was flown to a secret CIA prison where, according to Kiriakou, the interrogation team strapped Abu Zubayda to a board, wrapped his nose and mouth in cellophane, and forced water into his throat. In just 35 seconds, viola! Abu Zubayda starting talking. That is called waterboarding.
The 15 & 16 Century Spanish inquisitors were not squeamish, and had little need for circumlocutions or euphemisms like "alternative set of procedures" that are part of President George W. Bush's lexicon. The Spanish called this procedure, quite plainly, "tortura del agua." Lacking cellophane, they inserted a cloth into the victim's mouth, forcing the victim to ingest water spilled from a jar starting the drowning process. Four centuries later, the Gestapo put out several technically improved releases of this operating system of torture, so to speak.
Quick; someone please tell newly confirmed Attorney General Michael Mukasey, who told reporters yesterday he still cannot decide whether waterboarding is torture.
Abu Zubayda: Poster Child
The information from John Kiriakou confirms what has long been a no-brainer but not definitively established before; namely, that President George W. Bush's "alternative set of procedures" for interrogation by C.I.A. includes waterboarding. Zubayda was given pride of place in George W. Bush's remarkable speech of Sept. 6, 2006, in which he bragged about the effectiveness of such procedures and appealed successfully for passage of the Military Commissions Act. That law allows a president to define what set of interrogation procedures can be used by the C.I.A. This is Bush on Sept. 6, 2006:
We believe that Zubayda was a senior terrorist leader and a trusted associate of Osama bin Laden...[and that] he had run a terrorist camp in Afghanistan where some of the 9/11 hijackers trained...We knew that Zubayda had more information that could save innocent lives, but he stopped talking...And so the CIA used an alternative set of procedures...The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively and determined them to be lawful.... But I can say the procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.
Zubayda was questioned using these procedures, and soon he began to provide information on key al-Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September the 11th. For example, Zubayda identified one of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's accomplices in the 9/11 attacks -- a terrorist named Ramzi bin al Shibh. The information Zubayda provided helped lead to the capture of bin al Shibh. And together these two terrorists provided information that helped in the planning and execution of the operation that captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
Bush claimed that his interrogation program had saved lives, and Kiriakou says the use of waterboarding "probably saved lives." We cannot know for sure if this is true. Off-the-record interviews with intelligence officials strongly suggest that there is much prevarication and exaggeration in president's claims about lives saved and operations disrupted, and that the his assertions merit no more credulity than other claims-for example, that Iran's nuclear weapons program poses a threat to the U.S., even though it has been stopped for four years.
Other U.S. intelligence officials take issue with the C.I.A.'s version of the questioning of Zubayda. Some say that initially he was cooperating with F.B.I. interrogators using a nonconfrontational approach, when C.I.A . assumed control and opted for more aggressive tactics. After that experience, the F.B.I. reportedly warned its agents to avoid interrogation sessions at which harsh methods were used.
As for credibility, never has a U.S. president's word been so cheapened as it is today. In late July 2007, we Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity joined with Justin Frank, MD, psychiatrist, professor at George Washington University Hospital, and author of "Bush on the Couch," to search for insight on how President Bush thinks. See "Dangers of a Cornered Bush,"from which we excerpt the following:
His pathology is a patchwork of false beliefs and incomplete information woven into what he asserts is the whole truth...He lies-not just to us, but to himself as well...What makes lying so easy for Bush is his contempt-for language, for law, and for anybody who dares question him.... So his words mean nothing. That is very important for people to understand.
This Is Oversight?
The past few weeks have witnessed an unseemly square dance in Congress, highlighting conflicting claims about what those who are supposed to be overseeing the intelligence community knew and when they knew it-about torture, about Iran, about many things. It is nothing short of an insult to the Founders that members of the House and Senate can find nothing more useful to do than wring their hands over their largely self-inflicted powerlessness.
Lawmakers have been so thoroughly intimidated by the White House that I get physically ill watching the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Jane Harman, Bob Graham, and Jay Rockefeller moan about how secretive and nasty the Bush administration has been. Harman complained recently that when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee some of the material (on interrogations) was so highly classified that she had to take a "second oath" to protect it.
What about the solemn oath they all take to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Should not that oath transcend and govern others that an administration might require for access to secret materials?
Senator Dick Durbin of the Senate Intelligence Committee has complained that he was aware that classified information did not justify the conclusion in 2002 that Iraq had unconventional weapons, but he could not say anything because it was classified! Durbin explained:
...We're duty-bound once we enter that room to respect classified information. Everything you hear is supposed to stay in the room...I certainly had enough to know that the statements that were made about mushroom clouds were not the conclusions of someone in the administration who was really being honest about the full debate. But you really know, walking in the room, what the rules of the game will be.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, has admitted knowing for several years about the Bush administration's eavesdropping on Americans without a court warrant. She was briefed on it when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee when Bush and Cheney took office. One key unanswered question is this: Was she told that within days of their taking office-that is, seven months before 9/11, the National Security Agency's electronic vacuum cleaner had already begun to suck up information on Americans-the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, not to mention the Constitution, be damned?
In a Washington Post op-ed of Jan. 15, 2006, Pelosi proudly advertised her uniquely long tenure on the Intelligence Committee and acknowledged that she was one of the privileged handful of lawmakers who were briefed. "This is how I came to be informed of President Bush's authorization for the NSA to conduct certain types of surveillance." She then proceeded to demonstrate the bowing and scraping characteristic of her subservient attitude toward the Executive Branch:
"But when the administration notifies Congress in this manner, it is not seeking approval. There is a clear expectation that the information will be shared by no one, including other members of the intelligence committees. As a result, only a few members of Congress were aware of the president's surveillance program, and they were constrained from discussing it more widely."
And so too, may we assume, with respect to torture? This is oversight?
Neutered Watchdogs: Rockefeller and Reyes
What can we expect from the current Senate and House oversight chairmen regarding the recently disclosed, deliberate destruction of two tapes of harsh interrogations of Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri? (Al-Nashiri is thought to have played a role in the attack on the USS Cole.) On the Senate side, expect nothing of Mr. Milquetoast Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who, it is said, is so afraid of his own shadow that he only ventures outdoors at night or in bad weather.
House Intelligence Committee Chairman Silvestre Reyes has a different kind of problem, and should recuse himself. He has been fawning all over José Rodriguez, the former CIA Deputy Director of Operations who ordered the tapes destroyed.
On August 16, 2007 Congressman Reyes told a conference in El Paso he considered Rodriguez "an American hero," proudly adding that, "with a few liberties that Hollywood takes, the exploits of José Rodriguez are documented in the FOX TV series "24." I am told that almost every episode of "24" includes at least one scene glorifying torture, usually with lead man Jack Bauer playing a main role. Reyes made it clear he is a big fan of Bauer and "24."
Were that not enough, after Rodriguez' role in destroying the interrogation tapes became public, Reyes immediately cautioned against allowing investigations to find just one "scapegoat" (no secret to whom he was referring). And so, unless Reyes does recuse himself, look for a "complete and thorough" investigation of the kind favored by the Nixon White House. (Just when you may have thought it could not get any worse!)
Torture as Technique: Stark Differences in View
On Sept. 6, 2006, the very day Bush bragged about his "alternative set of procedures for interrogation" and appealed for legislation allowing the C.I.A. to continue using them, the head of Army intelligence, Lt. Gen. John Kimmons, took a very different tack. Conducting a Pentagon briefing shortly before the president gave his own speech, Kimmons underscored the fact that the revised Army manual for interrogation is in sync with the Geneva treaties. Then, conceding past "transgressions and mistakes," Kimmons updated something I learned 45 years ago as a second lieutenant in Army intelligence:
"No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that."
Grabbing the headlines the following day, was Bush's admission that the CIA has taken "high-value" captives to prisons abroad for interrogation using "tough" techniques prohibited by the revised Army field manual-and by Geneva, for that matter. Gen. Kimmons displayed uncommon courage in facing into that wind.
How About- Stop Torture Because It's Wrong?
Have you noticed the shameful silence of our institutional churches, synagogues, and mosques? True, on occasion a professor of moral theology will speak out. Professor William Schweiker of the Chicago Divinity School, for example, has heaped scorn on the scenario of the lone knower of the facts whose torture is thought to be able to save millions of lives. He notes that such is "the stuff of bad spy movies and bad exam questions in ethics courses." Schweiker warns Christians, in particular:
"Not to fall prey to fear and questionable reasoning and this continue to support an unjust and vile practice that demeans the nation's highest political and moral ideals, even as it desecrates one of the most important practices and symbols (Baptism) of the Christian faith." http://marty-center.uchicago.edu/sightings/archive_2007/1129.shtml
And, to its credit, the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, a coalition of 130 religious organizations from left to right on the political spectrum, yesterday issued a strong call for the appointment of a special counsel to investigate the C.I.A.'s destruction of the videotapes of harsh interrogation techniques. NRCAT's founder, Princeton Theological Seminary professor George Hunsinger told the press that "to acknowledge that waterboarding is torture is like conceding that the sun rises in the east," adding:
"All the dissembling in high places that makes these shocking abuses possible must be brought to an end. But they will undoubtedly continue unless those responsible for them are held accountable. Clearly a joint probe by the Justice Department and the CIA -- agencies that are both seriously compromised -- is not enough. A special counsel is an essential first step."
But where are the official voices of the institutional churches, synagogues, and mosques in this country. In effect, they are ordaining Jack Bauer with their silence.
This Happened Before
With very few exceptions, the institutional churches in Nazi Germany kept a shameful silence, denying believers the moral authority and leadership so needed to stand up to Gestapo torturers. Indeed, many of the bishops-like military leaders, and jurists-swore a personal oath to Hitler. For his part, the Nazi leader moved quite quickly to ensure that there was a pastor-whether Evangelical or Catholic-in every parish in Germany. He saw this as a source of support and stability for his regime. And, sadly, it was.
While the Nazis were systematically torturing and even murdering defenseless victims, they kept repeating assurances that not a single hair of anyone's head would be harmed. (Shades of the familiar refrain "we do not torture.") And the propaganda machine under Joseph Goebbels made a fine art of what President Bush calls the need to "catapult the propaganda."
Sebastian Haffner, a young German lawyer in Berlin during the thirties kept a journal that his children subsequently published in book form as "Defying Hitler." His fascinating account of Germany in the thirties provides many thoughtful insights into prevailing attitudes and the lack of moral leadership. Haffner's journal depicted the kind of ambiance in which the approach of the Grand Inquisitor would, and did, flourish -"in the end they will lay their freedom at our feet [and] become obedient:"
"The weather in March 1933 was glorious. Was it not wonderful to...merge with festive crowds and listen to speeches about freedom and homeland? (It was certainly better than having one's belly pumped up with a water hose in some hidden secret police cellar.)"
Breeding and Breakdown
Haffner closes his chapter on 1933 with observations that, in my view, apply much too aptly to America today:
"The sequence of events is, as you see, not so unnatural. It is wholly within the normal range of psychology, and it helps to explain the almost inexplicable. The only thing that is missing is what in animals is called 'breeding.' This is a solid inner kernel that cannot be shaken by external pressures and forces, something noble and steely, a reserve of pride, principle, and dignity to be drawn on in the hour of trial. It is missing in Germans. As a nation we are soft, unreliable, and without backbone. That was shown in March 1933. At the moment of truth, when other nations rise spontaneously to the occasion, the Germans collectively and limply collapsed. They yielded and capitulated, and suffered a nervous breakdown."
C.I.A.'s John Kiriakou says he is now convinced that waterboarding is torture and he is against it. He adds, "Americans are better than that."
But Are We Better Than That?
Sadly, that remains to be seen. With virtually all religious institutions, politicians, and educators all squandering what moral authority they have left, the Jack Bauer culture threatens to win out in the end. We cannot let that happen.
The upcoming duel on the missing interrogation tapes will again bring the issue of torture front and center. And, strangely, waterboarding and other Jack Bauer tradecraft tools still enjoy a strong constituency.
Here's where we come in; for we are the ones we've been waiting for. As one of my intelligence alumni colleagues noted recently, this is about our country losing its soul. Let's rise to the occasion and stop unconscionable policies like torture. True patriotism goes well beyond a flag-on-the-lapel. As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. noted, "Sometimes you have to put your body into it." Besides, we need to keep the water hose from pumping up our bellies and those of our loved ones. I only wish that were as remote a possibility as it was before President Bush and his associates came up with their "alternative set of procedures."
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in Washington, DC. He was an Army officer and then a C.I.A. analyst for 27 years, and now serves on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
This article appeared first on Consortiumnews.com.
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Show AllHow is it that the one life form on Earth with the supposed highest intelligence quotient, is by far the most destructive?
Eckhart Tolle suggests that most humans shift between unconsciousness and deep unconsciousness, and that violence is not possible in anything other than a deeply unconscious state. Just because a homo sapien has eyes open and lungs breathing in no way signifies enlightened consciousness.
George Bush is a stunning example of how the unconscious human egoic mind can justify any and every behavior in order to preserve itself. His ego has taken on its own life force that is willing to justify the murder, torture and untold destruction that has been caused by his decisions. The 'decider ' is possessed by a completely false image of self that has been tragically even further warped by his unbelievable job title as 'leader of the most powerful nation on Earth.' How he got the job defies even "The Twilight Zone".
Eckhart suggests that such insanity is a necessary part of our species evolution towards enlightenment. So we will be better than this. At this point it appears that Darwin's theory may have overlooked the 'survival of the witless'.
In LIGHT of the previous from douglos, may I suggest Paul Levy, an artist and a spiritually-informed political activist, whose website is www.awakeninthedream.com and his latest book is The Madness of George W Bush, A Reflection on our Collective Psychosis. Also, his article, DENIAL: THE 51ST STATE, which puts in perspective some of what Eckhart Tolle has to say.
In a universe that is unified, there is no them and us, only a WE. Perpetrators do not exist in a vacuum. To become conscious is to recognize our wholeness and thereby, transcend victim consciousness. The evolution Tolle describes is the transcendence of duality toward enlightment.
Good to see that there is a growing community here of like-minded and evolving souls who support the evolution of all of us. We will all get home, eventually, but not until all of us arrive, do we get to share in the AT One Ment.
peace,
st john
nspire----no need to apologize. It is indeed a monumental task to stare down the "beast" these days. All the same, I believe we will. Everyone is tired and beaten down for the moment. I have been taking some breaks from the news to recharge my spirit. I create, I read uplifting things, and hug my children and grandchildren.
Since I do believe that all I have is the moment, I really resist the doomsday predictions. Mostly because all I have is the NOW, and focusing on the future robs me of its sweetness.
And I ask myslef over and over again, "How then would I have it be?" We dreamers and artists must not get sucked into a nightmare of someone else's making. We must not forget our own dreams.
Namaste
Oh, now you tell us! Bush, Cheney, Rice, Pelosi, Harmon and the rest thought their oath said "subvert and offend" the Constitution and laws of the United States.
STAR OF THE SEA -- Thank you.
I was crying for those being tortured right now, and striving for the compassion and understanding of those so full of the expedient hubris of condoning torture and the continued desecration of sacred human being.
I stand now in my vision of empowered enlightenment, spiritual awareness, and the possibility of an unprecedented future for our children - who deserve the very best that everyone is capable of.
A L L -- Please join with me in this endeavor of "how I would have it to be"
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
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Please, please my fellow CDers read Bertram Gross's "Friendly Fascism: The New Face of Power in America."
Get the South End Press edition, 1980. The earlier publication by a MS press privately censored some of the book.
The only reason he was published was because
1. he was well known political scientist who won almost every political science award in US offers
2. he was a Democratic Party insider who helped Hubert Humphrey draft the Full Employment Act (longterm unemployed individuals would be given a federal job that paid a family living wage).
However, he book rocked so many books that the publishers would only publish a truncated version.
Today, the book is out of print. Yet its predictive power is amazing.
Last, try and read Jane Jacobs' "The Dark Age Ahead", 2004 Vintage Books.
Though she isn't as systematic and thorough as Gross, she foretold the future bursting of housing bubble and what it portends.
Well, the Bush Cheney conservative criminals just did it again. They trotted out the nice young fellow that could have been our own son or grandson, and he explained how wonderful it was to get that information that saved all those American lives. Then we have these congresspersons that are telling us it is just like swimming, only why did it work so great then? If torture is so successful, why did it not make Christ deny he was the Son of God, instead of accepting his severe torture on the cross? Our country is fast losing all the principles that we thought we stood for, as scared people just accept anything as truth that will suppossedly protect them. This country does not need a revolution, it just needs people that will attempt to use their brains to see through the thick fog we are in the middle of.
Lincoln story - I guess - Lincoln asked a boy how many legs a dog has. The boy said 4. Lincoln asked what if you call the tail a leg too? The boy said 5. Lincoln said NO CALLING A TAIL A LEG DOESN'T MAKE IT A LEG.
Waterboarding is torture. No matter what you call waterboarding it is torture. Period.
It's downright EVIL too.
Newsflash:
Potrero, Cali votes down Blackwater, Inc.!!!
Three cheers for Potrero!
Hip hip, hooray!
Hip hip, hooray!
Hip hip, hooray!
Here's the link to watch the video...
http://www.crooksandliars.com/
Its interesting how people get all worked up about treating suspected terrorists overseas with dignity, human rights, etc, but are blind to what is happening in their own back yard. If people knew what goes on in our prison system, where we have 2 million people, the highest incarceration rate in the world, well...... Read Grishams book, came out a couple of years ago, I think it was called Innocent Man
I do not know if there is a God who could care less about the critters on this planet. But if there is, and he judges them by it's countries actions, well, don't expect paradise or virgins, and leave the jacket at home. It's going to be hot. We are all going to be crispy critters in the after-life.
CANUCKCHUCK You said we make Pol Pot look like Mr. Rogers. Bet you didn't know that Mr. Rogers was a Navy Seal. He always wore shirts and sweaters with long sleeves. His musceled arms were as tattooed as a Hells Angel. He was a very tough guy.
Why do you put ALL of us Americans in the same pile? For the most part, you cannuks have always backed our government. Don't hide behind that imaginary line called a border. The Canadians can't claim total innocense. If you live in a an outhouse, you smell like shit too. So there you go, ya see, it ain't fair to brand every hog with the same iron.
CANUCKCHUCK -
The Washington Monument? Are you crazy?
That would look like tetherball!
Don't you think that Lady Liberty's Torch would be better?
Are we better than that? We are yes. Our children will not be. We grew up thinking of America in different terms and with different assumptions than what our children now experience and are getting used to. We daily discuss whether or not torturing someone is actually considered torture because we are the ones doing it.
The reason we are so shocked at the use of torture by our side is that we always defined ourselves as opposing the side that used such methods. You don't see the old WW2 movies anymore... the ones where Jimmy Cagney was tied to a chair in a basement being tortured by the ... the other side - the Gestapo. We weren't raised to accept or believe in our country being the side that used torture. That wasn't OUR side... OUR side was the good side and grew up believing that. Us... the grown ups now.
We are shocked at the despair of us. In effect we all ask what happened to our America? The most admirable in us that stood up for our constitution and an individual's liberties and freedoms? Anybodies. That earlier America of our childhoods is still ours inside us. It is who WE are but...
Consider our children who are growing up knowing that we torture and balather excuses for doing it? If torture was so wrong than why do we do they do it? It becomes a debate ...for or against.
The next generation will expect through this rising familiarity ...or call it training... through movies like Saw and Hostel... that torture is a norm of daily life. During the Inquisition one still went to market and had your horse reshod etc. ... daily life. We let our children become inured and this will lead them... to having a lack of empathy.
I heard a candidate today mention the courts taking religion out of schools. Whom would Christ torture though ...the pharisee never said. We bequeath our children a even more personal hypocrisy. Place no faith in torture.
We redefine torture and end up with some kinds of tortures that are supposedly not actually torture. Isn't that losing one's soul? Being unable to tell right from wrong?
Isn't that US losing the soul of the America that WE always assumed we were and believed in? The rabid Nazis believed in the amoral immunity of the state and their leader. Germany became a country without a soul... rather they had redefined themselves under the souless guidance of the nazis.
So that man stood among the blindly cheering crowds as perhaps friends and even family were being herded into cattle cars? Will we cheer when we no longer want to out of fear as well someday? We won't... no. Not US ...the older generations. The last of the Americans ... who once had ALL their freedoms and liberties. Us... the ones losing them for the future America.
But what is most frightening is the thought of our children cheering... out of fear... for they also are being raised knowing that they will be watched... and that they aren't really free ...not like we were.
Those who even remember who we were anymore, I mean. Remember? We were the other side... the ones who didn't torture... the ones who saw themselves as a free people... the ones who cheered without fear... the side which knew right from wrong?
Very good and appreciable article, one I certainly appreciate anyway.
Now, with that said, it'd be good for people focusing on the torture issue, which is definitely one needing to be urgently addressed, i.e., corrected, it'd be good to focus on ending the wars on Iraq, Afghanistan, African countries, Haiti, and so on; for, as bad and unacceptable as the torture is, it's DWARFED by these damn hellbent wars killing far MORE innocents. And, as was declared at Nuremberg, wars of aggression constitute THE SUPREME CRIME humans or govts can (and do) commit; plus, the torture isn't killing the tortured at any rate comparable to the over 1MN, heading towards 2MN Iraqis, the many millions of Africans murdered because of the U.S. govt's puppet regimes over the past several years, the many Haitians murdered because of leader US govt and it's allies France and Ca, etc. One hellishly tortured Canadian, who was criminally sent to Syria by the CIA with the help of its pal Canadian network or criminal organisation known as the RCMP, and to be hellishly (I repeat) tortured, Maher Ahrar (spelling?), is now a multi-millionaire, after having successfully sued the Canadian govt and therefore ALL Canadian taxpayers because of the crimes of the RCMP and the govt premiership, NEITHER of which represents half or more Canadian taxpayers. That was hellish torture, but it's not the criminals who paid the heavy penalty; it was ALL Canadian taxpayers who did. So the real criminals have still gotten away scot-free, not paying even a nickel for their crimes, not the slightest bit of penalty applied to any of them.
There are multiple injustices in that example, now isn't there. He's still alive, he's functioning, is functional, as his strong work to sue the Canadian govt demonstrated or illustrated, and will of course suffer psychologically due to the memories he will never forget from the hellish torture he went through; but he's still alive, functioning, and now a multi-millionaire, having been given $10MN.
Now if only it was the guilty RCMP members and the premiership of the country who had to pay that whopping penalty, then we'd have some real justice; and it'd be all the better if these criminals were also tried, convicted, and sentenced for their crimes, receiving many years of prison.
Thousands of cases of injustices can be shown for each case of real justice. That is, this world is flooded, inundated by or with injustices, with a drop of justice happening to or for someone, somewhere, sometime, now and then.
Anyway, the totally criminal wars of aggression are the far greater crimes.
Still a very good article Ray McGovern wrote and provided for us though; I will not deny that for a second.
Otoh, I think he should lay off of Muslims in the U.S. THOUSANDS were rounded up in despotic, ..., ways following 9-11, and extremely few other Americans stood up to stand by these Muslims then or since; and the American Muslims are not blind and deaf, they know that they can and will be very easy prey for the U.S. govt, in what this govt pretends to be a Christian and Jewish, due to the Israeli lobbies, country.
Regardless if the number of American Muslims is considerable, it's still nothing compared to the rest of Americans, who've been MOSTLY ALL lame-ass do-nothings, except they did strongly support launching these wars of aggression and when we did NOT need U.S. govt intelligence of any kind at all to know that these wars OBVIOUSLY could not be justified then or EVER. I did not need govt intell to know that the war on Kosovo was going to definitely be wholly criminal if it was launched, and that's before I read the hellbent corrupted Rambouilet Accord, which SCHMUCK Clinton suddenly remembered there was a lacune in, once President Milosevic agreed to the initial and FORMAL accord. That only cemented my firm position that that war could not be justified, would be entirely criminal; instead of having caused me to change my view, it was only cemented.
I did not need govt bla bla bla bla bla wordiness of some sort of some kind of some so-called intel, to KNOW that the war on the Taliban was to be OPPOSED from the first moment it was publicly mentioned that the Bush-CHENEY administration was going to launch the U.S. military war machine on Afghanistan.
I did not need U.S. govt intel to know that the war on Iraq could not be justified, and the fact that the bush-CHENEY administration criminally interrupted and therefore obstructed the wholly, enough, successful UN weapons inspections did not alter my view; it was only cemented.
Here's the best intel on war in the world.
What is the DEFAULT response to give or send to the govt "leadership" when it speaks of launching war?
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, ...!!!
The govt must be absolutely required to supply absolutely verifiable and irrefutably truthful information supporting the govt's case, and the verification of that must be performed, thoroughly, by ALL citizens and legal residents, immigrants, before we can consider changing our 'NO, NO, ...' to yes or even maybe.
You don't need govt intel, except when the govt has a track record of being honest, including the current leadership; and until that is the kind of govt we have, then the immediate answer to ALWAYS give about launching war is 'NO' and I can't make that large enough in font size here.
In that case, we will accept intel, and if it's honest, then it will accord with OUR 'NO' to war; but the intel should not persuade us easily if and when it's not in accord with OUR 'NO'. In that case, VERIFY and TAKE THE TIME NECESSARY FOR A [JUSTLY] CONDUCTED RESEARCH.
Only if the govt is regularly truthful and competent should we consider intel that counters the govt leadership's claims for justification for war.
The default reply is 'NO, NO, ...!!!'.
It's the KISS way; KEEP IT SIMPLE [STUPID]. Only atrociously stupid people complicate mention of war to the point that they believe that it's justified or even possibly justified. The WISE know better and cut the bs out, getting straight to the 'NO!'.
I grew up victim of gratuitous violence, physically and psychologically for many years and starting from age 5; and these experiences permitted me to acquire some [real] education. I got to see how my main bullies easily succeeded in getting additional people who did not know me at all, and who I had never even seen or heard of before or since, to join these bullies in aggressing me. And it's laughable, due to their laughable stupidity; mean, nasty, sure, but still awfully DUMB, stupid.
If those idiots had been intelligent enough to apply and live by KISS, then the first thing they would have thought of doing would have been to try to verify if the bullies trying to persuade those others to join were really telling the truth, whatever it is that they were told; something I never learned, but they were told something, too.
I never stood by a friend who was wrong against another friend or total stranger; it goes against my grain to do otherwise. And if I will not stand by a friend who's wrong towards others, then I sure will not stand by any politician; having absolutely no friends in that "walk of life", albeit there are a few in ALL of North America I would be glad to be friends with.
A few in ALL of North America. Oh, YUCK, are we ever in trouble.
So, anyway, I don't see why McGovern thought it was or is right to also aim at American Muslims. If they did as he says they should, then ... we already know that THOUSANDS of them were rounded up and detained, without any legitimate grounds for doing so, and by the very same presidential administration that we still and unfortunately have today.
They were treated that way, and many Americans, bigots as history usually depicts of U.S. culture, joined in with the govt, to try to make life hell for American Muslims, particularly the Arab ones.
Maybe if the rest of Americans showed real courage and moral principles in action, then I could see it as justified to call on fellow American Muslism to JOIN [US]. I will not dare to ask them to lead the way after all that's happened since bush-CHENEY, a tiny panel of hellishly corrupt and pro-bush-CHENEY Supreme Court judges, working for the real ruling elites, the 'invisible' ones, [APPOINTED] this administration in 2000. Oh, and of course the whole of Congress stayed silent about that ever since, TOO; and regardless which party was in power in Congress.
Point not thy fingers at the American Muslims, I say. Point thy fingers at thyselves and all non-Muslim Americans, particularly the pro-Israeli lobby and pro-Zionism Americans. During the run-up politics to the war on Iraq, when it was already OBVIOUS that the war could NOT be justified, EVER, only around 23% of Americans stood OPPOSED (not needing any kind of special govt intel to inform their [real] intelligence), while around 77% BLINDLY, while some also heinously, supported, and strongly so; so strongly that these numbers remained very constant for a LONG time. It was a very LONG time, given that it was obvious during fall 2002 that this war could not be justified. Only IDIOTS could think otherwise.
Sounds like I must very much dislike McGovern's article, n'est-ce pas? Well, I don't; I very much appreciate it and only question a [little] of it. It's going to be bookmarked, instead of forgotten.
Actually, one last word. As bad as the torture is and as much as it needs to be stopped, and Bush, Cheney, etc., should be made to answer for these crimes, not as a substitute for but in addition to these criminal wars of aggression, LET US NOT FORGET THE FIRST NATIONS PEOPLES OF THE U.S.A.
That's also another major crime on the Canadian govt's part, but the article is about the U.S. torture of detainees, not about Canada, so I won't say more on Canada being guilty of perpetually committing extreme crimes against the FN Peoples of Canadian territory.
We make a major case of this torture matter, while spending our lives living SILENTLY about all other extreme U.S. govt and population crimes against the FN Peoples. And we can add those of South American countries, for the U.S. has a lot of guilt in the crimes of today and recent decades against the FN Peoples of So. Am., too. (Canada did not need U.S. help to do the same, but is getting a lot today and in Big Business terms of crime.)
Like I said, we are FLOODED, INUNDATED with injustices; for each case of justices, there are thousands or ziollions of cases of injustices. We're damn SWAMPED in injustices, and by far mostly against INNOCENT and defenceless, very anyway, people, always.
Glad you were able to present all of that prose in such a brief format Mike, __ very interesting.
I have never read the Brothers Karamazov. So therefore can not really say how much the situations are alike. But, what the American people remind me of is Germany in the early 30's that quietly became a terrorist state...Nazi. When they became so blinded or amoured with Hitler they collectively lost their conscious. They chose to over look evil people doing evil things for the supposed betterment of their country. In fact, for the first time in my life I now understand how things like that happen. It happens far to easily given the right set of circumstances. The same thing has happened in the US. Bush used the tragedy of 9/11 to advance his agenda of world conquest. We all know now he had designs on Iraq before he ever came in the White House. His agenda of taking over the middle-east and democratizing it doesn't make much more sense than Hitler's did when he invaded the Soviet Union. Bush doesn't have a clue what Democracy is. So how can he possibly democratizing anyone???? He has proven that time and time again. He is an extremely sick (mentally) man. Who was not fit to serve as President when he stole the election in 2000. So as far as I can see he is irrelevant anymore. This country has been without any stable leadership for 7 years now.
Governments have always had an easy time recruiting people to do whatever horrific thing they want done: torture, rape, assassination, genocide. It will always be so. Those with the lack of conscience to do such bidding are amongst us.
I wonder why nobody these days blames the torturers along with the governments. I'd like to think when those in power are getting the waterboard ready (along with the gonad electrodes, and other such evil crap), at least one person, one soldier, one CIA bureaucrat (oh, do I mean "agent"?) says: "I ain't gonna do it." But I'm a pollyanna.
get rid of the od enter password which blocks the email
Mike Corbiel__very good discussion of the whole subject of agression. I especially appreciated the idea that we should all realize that while many have undergone torture at our hands, how many more have been blown to bits or ruined for life, mentally and physically by our unnecessary wars that we are so proficient at carrying out.
John Taylor Gatto, correctly in my opinion, places the lack of a "solid inner kernel" on Prussian style mandatory schooling, which the U.S. adopted from Germany. Alice Miller points out how abusive parenting produces many similar alterations of brain development.
No Child Left With a Soul?
Hi all,
this is my first post. I just wanted to add a point to this discussion, about the polls that suggested a majority of Americans are in favour of waterboarding. I just wonder if they know what waterboarding actually is, or whether they think it is merely "a dunk in the water" as Cheney put it?
I wonder how many people would vote "yes" if the question were this:
"Waterboarding is a form of torture whereby a victim is forced to inhale water until their lungs are filled. A doctor is present and the operation is aborted before the victim dies. The technique has the advantage that it leaves no visible marks on the victim's body. Do you think it is acceptable for the US to use waterboarding?"
As with anything it is impossible to come up with a sensible answer unless one knows the subject of the question.
They have to torture people to
1) look like they have 'real' enemy;
2) scare the rest of us.
AQ = CIA
John Kiriakou imo is representing the CIA and they are trying to drive into the skid and regain control of this mess.
Kiriakou gives the best defense they have because they have used torture. The CIA is doing what they can to hide it by destroying the tapes and now saying they recieved good information using torture techniques. And saying that torture should not be used in the future. (but you know they will use it again)
If anyone tortured me I would certainly give up false information and involve people that I hated. And I am not a particularly strong personality and would not be engaged in mass murder. Someone who is ruthless and a killer would certainly imo LIE (duhhh)
In a poll I read in the Economist 60% of Republicans supported the use of torure and 20% of Democrats supported it.
I think we are dealing with some very dangerous and thoughtless people who are in positions of power. And I mean the Republican party.
Imo these people are so crazy that it has literally frightened the Democrats who are in power, who are hoping to regain more power and stop this craziness coming out of the Republican Party which is even supported by some Democrats.
I was not favorably impressed with Kiriakou. I thought he was a liar and he is an example of what we have in the CIA.
Imo there are people in our police forces who would easily use torture and the US is not a safe nation if you oppose the Bush government. This is a violent nation for a nation with the resources that the US has and it is violent considering it is a nation that is in the west.
Our country is going backwards. The political whores in D.C. with the help of a cheer-leading media, are taking us back even before the time of Columbus. We have changed century's of legal and political practice that has allowed us, as a people, to become better human beings. That we now approve and condone torture puts us back with the wild animals we are supposed to be better than.
I stopped living in America twenty years ago. I was ashamed when I found out that the concept of being an American was fraudulent. We weren't what we said we were. The American that I wanted to grow up to be wasn't there to greet me. He was supposed to be, because I believed that we were "better than that".
Hoa binh
http://www.skilluminati.com/research/entry/joe_delgados_physical_control_of_the_mind/
Amerika has matured, it's no mutation or aberration. I thank god every day for Bush and his band of moral dwarfs and intellectual midgets. He is the true face of an amerika that always was poisoned at the heart.
Now the world sees it for what it is. Unfortunately for those inside the illusion it is taking a lot longer and of course the mindless masses will continue to march merrily into the furnaces or send their brainless progeny off to the next adventure with nary a thought thanks to the wonders of the patriotic mindless pulp on which they are fattened.
Pavlov's dog and Bush the chimp, all the household animals the amerikan family will ever need again!
So what is it you want America because if your eyes and ears are open you can see and hear what we have. This ain't your father's Buick or his America. Question is or seems to be 'What are we willing to do about it?' Next question 'What can we do about it?' 'How and who will go about doing it?' Open questions who has some answers?
Might one be Impeach and Prosecute according to the US Constitution! What Pancho you say now that is the Impossible Dream John and Yoko Imagine Oh I'm so confused and this seems to be right where I've and they've got me. To do and not to do I'm still working on B/not B
How in all seriousness can this be fixed?
Richard: The answer is.....NOPE! Not until every American personally feels the pain wrought by the US government and the corporations. But, not to fear. That day is coming soon. Don't know which disaster it will be, but the train to America's awakening has picked up a head of steam and is heading straight to the wall of its destruction. The train conductor has already yelled the "All Aboard"!!! And most Americans heeded the call without even knowing where the tracks were headed. Oh well.....
Damn, got the ending wrong, again.
"It encourages corporations to be predatory, instead of wise, socially and environmentally responsible; and it encourages responsible living."
That should be, "It discourages corporations from being predatory, to instead be wise, ...; and encourages responsible living".
Geesh. Often get the wording screwed up, which makes real discussion forums much more appealing; just go back and edit the same post, instead of needing to add new ones.
As a Native American, I can give you a two letter answer to the question in the title:
NO.
Dear "liberal with an attitude."
I have some answers for you. Read "The First American" by H.W. Brands.
Ben Franklin faced the same troubles we are facing. Apathetic countrymen. Troops in the Streets. Loss of common liberties. Loyalist Neocons oppressing the people at every turn. Torture in the stocks, cruel and unusual punishment. Tory Loyalists to the crown, looting the peoples money for their own financial benefit.
All the answers of what we must do are in this book.
We do not have the benefit of being armed in equal fashion to the king's redcoats however, so I'd advise all of us to stock up on LEGAL assault riffles and banana clips. (no I'm not kidding; you liberals have to concede that the right to keep and bear arms was a smart amendment by the founding fathers as a protection against the abuse of Hessian (same as Blackwater) troops threatening the safety of your family in the near future.)
I am a libertarian, a fiscal conservative, a Naderite, but I can't regain democracy without all you tree-huggers in the same corner (remember, we progressives MUST include everybody to stop this fascist evil; we must reach out and get the FOX news morans on board or we have no hope of winning.) INCLUDE EVERYBODY in the fight to stop torture.
You must ask yourself a question: What are you willing to give up to restore democracy? Your answer should be "Everything."
Otherwise, we're all just a bunch of "Good Germans" waiting for the SS to pick us up.
Peace through people power.
pacplyer
"We must hang together, otherwise, we will most certainly all hang separately." - Ben Franklin 1775
And the reason I phrase it that way, is because once Democracy is restored, with non-confusing paper ballots that can totaled accurately and recounted, the people will do the right thing. They will vote these turds out of office. They will vote Alternative energy.
All the polls show this to be true.
Americans right now are hostages to the NeoCON Repuke/Repulicrat/Dim war machine (the IMC if you will) and we've got to get free again.
pac
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed every so often with the blood of tyrants and patriots." - Thomas Jefferson
A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant,
is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Declaration of Independence
[Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776]
I, too, grow impatient with the talk and the lack of action. However, making people aware of the problem is an important first step to action.
Increasingly, the question becomes:
*Action from within the system or from without?
*Peaceful action or non-peaceful?
*Action fragmented by too many factions or effective action through many different people coming together for the sake of democracy?
I myself do not, any longer, see rescue coming from within the system. The Congress seems hopelessly co-opted and directionless. I pray, _pray_, for peaceful action otherwise we become just another country torn by people who like to perpetrate violence.
Progressives, true conservatives, libertarians--we must find our common ground.
Or America is lost.
MOLLY J -- A L L -- H O W __ A B O U T __ T H I S:
What IF we could telepathically
Imprint this message into the very synapses of 300 million?
________W A I T __ W E __ C A N __ D O __ T H I S ________
Let's choose a time, say 6 pm EST on 25-Dec-2007, and send a real
Christmas present to all of the World as well.
It doesn't matter (much) if your belief, faith and hope
of this is diminished by rational thought
- just do it ANYWAY (for the heck of it), as it certainly
cannot make anything any worse - RIGHT?
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
… and really, we do not need any
__ T E L E . P A T H E T I C __ J O K E S__
God I love you guys.
Honest.
Brave.
Everything our chicken hawk puppets are not.
And smart.
Molly J raises the most important questions which are on ALL our minds. My answer is that all options have to at least APPEAR to be on the table. And like our founding fathers in the American Colonies, a watershed event that brings the people together as one may not happen for ten years; but we have to prepare now. And by watershed, I mean quite possibly world wide flooding. We all hope a "sea change" in government will happen before real sea water shows up in our cities, but during political crisis (which we are now in, in the USA with no leadership competent to throw off the Fortune 500) no outcome is certain. It seems very telling to me, that because few of my countrymen studied American Revolutionary History to any real degree, that now we are all faced with repeating it; or living under the boot of a "1984" Orwellian tyrant.
Prepare now. Read books on the 1760-1779 era because although technology and weapons have changed, human nature has not changed. Greed has not changed. The monopolistic nature of big party machines to warp capitalism has not changed.
pac "guns" plyer
"We live, my dear soul, in an age of trial. What will be the consequence, I know not. - John Adams to Abigail Adams, 1774
"But what do we mean by the American Revolution? Do we mean the American War? The Revolution was effected before the war commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people." - John Adams
"I have heard of one Mr. Adams but who is the other?" - King George III
How do we reach the fear-crazed republicans, who are convinced that the bogey arabs are out to get them?
Give them 9-11 truth dvds. That's what I do, and it opens their eyes.
True, they go back to Fox, but they have a little kernel planted that tells them not to trust the Bushes.
Try it.
PAC -- for sure, read my lips "no central banks" next time around, right?
JLocke Did you ever think the order to hunt red heads came under a democrat? Be careful or Hobbes and Hume may end up on banned reading materials in the US