'We Do Not Torture'*
(*As we define it)
The United States does not engage in torture. So, at least, President Bush tells us, with great feeling and palpable indignation.
Two years ago, as Congress was crafting a new law to ban the torture of terrorism suspects, Vice President Cheney persuaded lawmakers to open a loophole for the CIA, which has reportedly overseen the interrogation of several "high value" terrorism suspects.
As a result, interrogation techniques such as "waterboarding" (in which a detainee is subjected to simulated drowning) are illegal if used by, for instance, the Army. But Congress gave the president the power to define "torture" with respect to the CIA.
This is what Bush said in 2005, even as Cheney was doing his back-room arm-twisting on Capitol Hill. "We are trying to disrupt (terrorists') plots and plans," Bush said. "Anything we do ... to that end in this effort, any activity we conduct, is within the law. We do not torture."
Former CIA Director George Tenet, interviewed by "60 Minutes" this year, echoed his former boss: "You know, the image that's been portrayed is we sat around the campfire and said, 'Oh, boy, now we go get to torture people.' We don't torture people. Let me say that again to you, we don't torture people. OK?"
This is, of course, the same George Tenet who famously told Bush that the evidence that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction was a "slam dunk."
In the last week, Americans learned that the CIA had videotaped the "severe interrogation techniques" of at least two al-Qaida operatives. The tapes were made in 2002 and destroyed three years later as Congress sniffed for clues about the CIA's secret prisons, detentions and interrogation techniques.
The New York Times reported that the tapes were destroyed "in part because officers were concerned that video showing harsh interrogation methods could expose agency officials to legal risks."
Notably, the CIA kept the tapes secret from many who explicitly and formally asked for any such tapes - the Sept. 11 commission, a federal court, congressional overseers.
This week, a former CIA agent who participated in the capture and interrogation of the first al-Qaida suspect to be waterboarded recounted his experiences with The Washington Post. John Kiriakou, a former CIA interrogator in Pakistan, said that the interrogation of Zayn Abidin Muhammed Hussein abu Zubaida was captured on videotape.
Kiriakou said the waterboarding of abu Zubaida was like "flipping a switch," prompting the suspect to divulge information about his cohorts and their plans. That information "probably saved lives," Kiriakou said.
Kiriakou offered no support for the claim, and there is good evidence that abu Zubaida was a minor player who started talking to make the "harsh interrogations" stop. The former CIA agent said he now believes waterboarding is, in fact, torture. He added, "Americans are better than that."
That's the hope. But that standard is hard to uphold when the nation's leaders undercut it. Kiriakou noted that individual agents don't make "willy nilly" decisions about how far to push the envelope. "This was a policy made at the White House, with concurrence from the National Security Council and the Justice Department."
The White House is characteristically mum on CIA tape news. By speaking out, meanwhile, Kiriakou showed candor and courage. By repudiating torture, he evinced genuine respect for America's core values. If only the president showed similar virtue.
Clint Talbott, for the Daily Camera editorial board
© 2007 Daily Camera and Boulder Publishing, LLC.
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19 Comments so far
Show AllDREAMER TOO -- Yes "Simulated necessity", of the faux war on terror.
This hides the real urgency (acute need to protect something we value) of creating a proper legacy for our children.
Yes we have had "Simulated democracy" for some time now [oligarchy = oilgarchy], with erosion and undercutting of our Constitution's foundation and the demise of real People's representation in DC.
Real contact with People in Town Halls meetings, coupled with real listening of collective needs and collaboration of the big picture
Yes we have "Simulated humanity" as if caring for and identifying with Brittany's troubles were enough.
Real intimacy [into ME you See] and compassion for the World's suffering
Yes we have "Government by torture".
Government by the People
Government for the People
I wonder, you all know how bushie has a bit of a problem with uttering what passes for his thoughts, right? Maybe, when bushie says that 'we do not torture' he forgets to complete the sentence with 'white people'
Simulated necessity. Simulated democracy. Simulated humanity.
Government by torture.
Clint Talbott is an ultra right wing Boulderite NUT.
He and his Daily Camera crew are still trying to cover their asses for what they did to me in Boulder in 2000.
They're nothing but right wing police state SCUM, fit only for the pit of HELL come Judgement Day.
Jonah
The TERMINATOR State
http://geocities.com/redstar774
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CROMEROVICH -- I've had similar exchanges with people about 'talking after' electrocution, and I now believe that the only talking that is possible following waterboarding, is when the torture is kept from its obvious completion.
(1) In most cases of torture (one would hope), the purpose is for the victim to survive, and be well enough to fan the flames of more cultural fear and terror.
(2) The other "extreme", of sadistic torture, is where the goal is prolonged pain ending in death.
IMHO, in neither of the two cases above was there any simulation going on.
The 1st case was purposely stopped prior to death, while all along the victim was clearly sure of their pending real death, not a 'simulated death'.
The second case is self evident, and the only simulation there, was that the victim might still have a chance to live through it.
I am sick and tired of all writers parroting the administration's same old tired urban myth of "simulated drowning". There is no drowning simulation with waterboarding; it is the real thing, the gag reflex is overcome and the lungs are filling with water. If it is continued the victim will die of guess what? Drowning.
Consider that the true worth of a country is in its people, and their possibilities -
not under the ground in a mine, nor the policies tendered by mis-represented gov't officiousness
A country which engages in torture is not worth defending.
Why shouldn`t we be able to torture? It is alright for us to have thousands of nuclear weapons, missles, and bombs, while we attack or threaten any other country that "might" have one or two in some stage of development, Also, it is ok for us to pollute the atmosphere because we "need" to do that to keep up our living standards and support our large corporations. After all, are we not the rulers of the world since Bush and Cheney became dictators and know what is best for all people everywhere? Besides, FOX Fake and Baloney News and the Right wing Repulsives say it is all necessary for our protection, while we really need protection from that ignorant bunch of loudmouths.
"We do not torture" falls along the same lines as the following dishonest statements:
"Read my lips, no new taxes."
"Mission accomplished"
"I'm a compassionate conservative"
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss. Lewinsky"
Need I add more? Yes, we torture. Why is there a debate on this. CNN's web site lists the following headline: "Is waterboarding torture?" Hummm, let's see. Perhaps we should experiment waterboarding on some of CNN's reporters so that they can report back to us as to whether or not waterboarding is torture...Wolf Blitzer? Lou Dobbs? Anyone, Anyone?...Let's go over to FOX NEWS...O'Rielly? Scarborough? Hey, how about Ann Coulter???
LOCUSTS, ROACHES, SPIDERS, PLANTS, REPTILES, and other MITOCRONDRIA -- My regrets and apologies to all possible non-human sentience, for denigrating your spirits and over generalizing about your laudable and repugnant anti-torturing principles.
Were it true that mere HUMANS were as well gifted, and compassionate, this world would be vastly different place.
I bless the many legs and stems that each of you waive freely,
in defiance of lawlessness and mendacity of humans that choose to act so,
that make the T-Rex dinosaurs look like vegetarians and monks.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
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nspire December 12th, 2007 2:02 pm ....My friend, I understand your sentiment, but please do not insult my creatures with "animal mentality". Creatures other than humans act through instinct. We humans act through reason and choice. When we choose torture, we have placed ourselves in the realm of Hades...a dark place, indeed. May we somehow find forgivance.
I hear that Zayn Abidin Muhammed Hussein abu Zubaida , under torture, also claimed to the, alternatively, the Pope, Tinker Bell, and Papa Smurf.
Even if waterboarding (which apparently Mr. Bush thinks is the same thing as surfing), does provide actionable intelligence as Mr. Kiriakou alleges, I think I'd rather take my lumps as a member of a nation with some morals about how it treats people that to be protected by torturing sadists.
And why is Mr. Kiriakou so sure that torture works? Why should I believe him? Where are the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq-Nam? Where is the 9/11 link to Saddam? This administration is composed of lying hacks -- it will take more than his say so to make me believe.
I'm getting fed up of saying to people that waterboarding is not simulated drowning, it IS drowning. Perhaps someone could explain to me how exactly one simulates drowning. That is, convince someone that their life is in danger (to the extent that they will talk/confess/whatever) by introducing water into their airways, but - and here's the important bit - without there being any danger of actually killing the victim.
So, when King Bu$h The Younger says, "We do not torture" maybe he's using the 'imperial we'.
If he is, I suggest we put Laura on the stand. If anyone should understand what torture feels like, it would be her - after living with him for decades. Maybe she would say that he doesn't torture, but that he IS torture.
That would be a sentiment the rest of the world could understand.
Only human-like animal mentality condones torture, as the soul and spirit is eroded with each turning of the screw, for both the tortured, and worse yet for the torturer.
We as a culture lose our collective humanity when torture happens anywhere on this planet,
clearly so when we ignore the occurrence of torture,
but especially so when we condoned or laud it as good.
It is a wonder that all of the mirrors in DC
have yet to be ‘turned to stone‘ and shattered,
from peering at the souless gapping husks
of our once proud democracy
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
When Bush was elected in 2000 I was upset at first. Then I rationalized the win by musing: "This idiot will screw things up so badly that we may finally rid ourselves of the fascists in GOP clothing"
I could never have imagined he'd screw things up THIS badly.
The Bush Administration and the majority of the members of Congress have turned into in-laws who have overstayed their visit. It is time for them to go!!