Thanks, PJD. Nader 2000 is lost in his tunnel vision of the way things are. The Dems haven't nominated a real progressive since McGovern. The corporate rulers, with their lapdog media, have moved the "center" steadily to the right for decades. The Dems won't allow instant runoff voting until they've been made to feel pain. Instead of building a progressive base, they've played to the ever-rightward middle. They're disgusting triangulators, and I'll never again vote for any of them that abandon a progressive agenda.

"note that runoff voting would still be winner-take-all and would not enable little third parties to win anything"

This is not what "winner take all" means.

"Winner take all" means a winner with less than 50%-plus-one votes can still take the office. Truly democratic systems consider such a result unacceptable. So runoff elections must be run until a absolute-majority candidate emerges. Instant runoff voting (preferential ballots) is just a useful time and money saving device.

And runoff voting, by itself, CAN be very advantageous to minority parties by removing the whole "spoiler" effect, making people free, for example, to pick Green as their first choice and then the Democrat in the runoff (or second choice in IRV ballot). Surely a Democrat/Nader-basher like you would such a setup, wouldn't you?

Or, are your true colors as an opponent to progressive alternatives at all showing through?

> "Sooner or later we'll get runoff elections and/or proportional representation,"

How exactly is this going to happen? And, hey, whatever magic wand you've got that's going to bring about a rewrite of the US Constitution to make it compatible with proportional representation (note that runoff voting would still be winner-take-all and would not enable little third parties to win anything), could you maybe first wave it to get single-payer health insurance and withdrawal from Iraq?

This is wonderful but as John Hall said it won't reach anyone but the choir of ourselves

Well Nader2000, it's all a matter of perspective. Socialism is never the same in any two places or times. The socialism of Cuba and Venezuela is influenced by Jose Mariategui of Peru as much as by Karl Marx.

I'm a socialist, and I do not preach bullet over ballot--it wouldn't go anywhere. I think it's important to participate in politics, and I want an alternative to the corporate party with two names. If the Dems don't nominate Kucinich, you can bet that I'll join in the movement for, as you put it, "the day's most attractive hopeless alternative." The status quo is what's hopeless. I see hope in socialist revolutions in Latin America, and I see hope in estadounidenses (US citizens) who are in solidarity with them.

You and I don't see eye to eye. Go on voting for corporate-owned Democrats. I'll vote my conscience. Sooner or later we'll get runoff elections and/or proportional representation, and then there will be a Eugene Debs for the 21st Century. It probably won't come soon, but political struggle takes hope, action and patience.

It seems a little silly to reply to any one that holds that

"Well when they give Noam Chomsky he's own TV show on MSNBC...........Blah Blah Blah"

mifton are you insane or just unlearned?

marxymark -

The Marxism of the ISO is not "democratic socialism" but, as they put it, "in the tradition of" Marx, Lenin and Trotsky. They seem to have changed their boilerplate; this comes from an earlier version:

"The structures of the present government -- the Congress, the army, the police and the judiciary -- cannot be taken over and used by the working class. They grew up under capitalism and are designed to protect the ruling class against the workers.
...
The working class needs an entirely different kind of state -- a workers' state based on councils of workers' delegates and a workers' militia."

http://www.internationalsocialist.org/wherewestand.shtml (downloaded Oct. 26, 2003)

You say you were not very familiar with the ISO. Well, I have known them for many years. Yes, they do seriously propose a bolshevik-style revolution. Not only that, but they insist it is the only solution. You might not get that unless you scratch beneath the surface, but ask any ISOer to defend the idea that someday they are going to take power not through the ballot box but by overthrowing the government in an armed revolution, and they'll take the bait.

They deride any incremental positive steps as "reformism." They used to be opposed to any participation in the electoral process, but seem to have decided that attacking the Democrats and making shifting alliances with Greens, or Nader, or whoever presents the day's most attractive hopeless alternative to positive participation in the actual political process, serves their goals of alienation and recruitment better than posing as enemies of democracy itself.

marxymark,

Thanks for writing the response I would have to nader2000's nonsense.

I know a number of ISO members and they are fine people dedicated to the only form of economic change that is going to save us.

US slavery abolitionists were likewise regarded as a "weird cult" in back in the 1830's.

the only good news in all this is that finally the truth is emerging about American history -- slowly, painfully, in small gobbets here and there, but it IS emerging -- and those of us dissenters have to accept that we will probably always be in the minority

last but not least, why not just do a DVD of Zinn's work? That way it gets out there without waiting for TV execs to pick it up, for which event i personally wouldn't hold my breath

Truth has set most of us free from believing the lies that say the USA is the greatest nation of all, etc.

The truth will set the others free from the same things too.

It will also set us free from certain false beliefs that we presently hold concerning man's potential, and our solar system.

------------

"What would have happened if millions of American and British people, struggling with coupons and lines at the gas stations, had learned that in 1942 Standard Oil of New Jersey [part of the Rockefeller empire] managers shipped the enemy's fuel through neutral Switzerland
and that the enemy was shipping Allied fuel? Suppose the public had discovered that the Chase Bank in Nazi-occupied Paris after Pearl Harbor was doing millions of dollars' worth of business with the enemy with the full knowledge of the head office in Manhattan [the
Rockefeller family among others?] Or that Ford trucks were being built for the German occupation troops in France with authorization from Dearborn, Michigan? Or that Colonel Sosthenes Behn, the head of the
international American telephone conglomerate ITT, flew from New York to Madrid to Berne during the war to help improve Hitler's communications systems and improve the robot bombs that devastated London? Or that ITT built the FockeWulfs that dropped bombs on British and American troops? Or that crucial balI bearings were shipped to
Nazi-associated customers in Latin America with the collusion of the vice-chairman of the U.S. War Production Board in partnership with Goering's cousin in Philadelphia when American forces were desperately
short of them? Or that such arrangements were known about in Washington and either sanctioned or deliberately ignored?."
-Charles Higham, researcher, about U.S.-Nazi collaboration during WWII
Excerpts Trading with the Enemy -
The Nazi - American Money Plot

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Trading_Enemy_excerpts.html

------------------------

Well, when they give Noam Chomsky his own TV show on MSNBC then I'll know that we're living in a fascist totalitarian dictatorship and there's no longer any hope.

I would love to see Howard Zinn's book done for TV. Kittyladyoregon has it right-- I think PBS would put it on; nobody else does documentaries much. The History Channel might, but they tend to be war glorifiers, so they probably wouldn't take this on.

I would also love to see someone present the life story of Thomas Paine in a movie or TV special. His is one of the most fascinating bios I've ever read, and his thoughts are as relevant to today as they were to his time. I recommend the book, "Thomas Paine" by Craig Nelson.

Howard Zinn's book on TV? God, I hope it happens!

If done right, this could change the world. It would have to be on a well-watched station, though, to reach enough people to matter.

Keep my fingers crossed for this one.

Nader2000 (12-11, 1:57 pm) wrote, "Howard Zinn's People's History is a classic, and Zinn has been a strong progressive voice over the years. However, it is distressing to see that Anthony Arnove is perhaps the more dynamic force behind this project. Arnove is a longtime acolyte of the International Socialist Organization, a weird cult that proposes a Bolshevik-style revolution as the solution to all of America's and the world's problems."

I wasn't very familiar with ISO, so I checked your link. The organization condemns Stalin while upholding Marx and Lenin. They don't appear to say that the Bolshevik revolution is the answer to all problems everywhere. You can bring your Marxophobia into this, but the fact is that many important reforms in our society exist because Marxists were first to act. The end of child labor, the weekend off, and the right to strike are a few things that come to mind. Marxism in your mind constitutes "weird cult," but the heart of the theory is about economic democracy. When workers have ownership in the means of production, work becomes a source of dignity. A democratic socialism is not the idea of a weird cult, nor is it totalitarianism. Global corporate capitalism: now there's a totalitarianism.

Awesome! I can't wait... I have been trying to get my teenage son to read the book but I don't think he has ever picked it up. I bet I could get him to watch the miniseries!

Just wishful thinking Marikken.

ezeflyer - you optimist - you can't teach anything to those who willfully cram their heads under the sand.

CD must be getting popular when the right wing visits the site. Maybe they'll learn something.

I can't imagine they will do a good job with it--but if they do, perhaps my ancestors will feel there has been a pinch of belated justice.

Re; Nader2000, Socialists don't support Democrats.
Why should any other than the shits in charge support either Democrats or Republicans?

The Democrats say, "Elect us so we can stand close while the Republicans screw you." We supported the Democrats last election and they have been watching ever since.

Are there any organizers out there who could jump-start some sort of Green-Socialist party and get these damn Republicrats to hell out of there?

I don't believe it will happen authentically. The other night I watched a rented HBO movie "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" and at the most crucial point in the film the Indians fired first.

Wow. Finally. I have spoken about Howard Zinn's book to many people who seem to be clueless about America's violent history. If anyone wants to know America's true history, read this book -- written in 1970's. I love Howard Zinn, and can't wait to see this miniseries. He is a true patriot. Will pass the word along to many in hopes of perhaps enlightening those who obviously know nothing of America's sordid past when they speak so highly of our wonderful government. The book should be a part of every history/civics class curriculum.

This is great! Whoever picks it up stands to make a lot of money from the liberal majority.

Wow, Fox didn't want to air it. What do you know? I'm glad that fox didn't get there hands on this one, they are already trying to change the past.

Zinn, like Michael moore knows to use the system against itself. Whose exploiting whom?

Should be required viewing for High School Civics and History classes. Ignorance and fear are the lifeblood of fascism.

Howard Zinn's People's History is a classic, and Zinn has been a strong progressive voice over the years. However, it is distressing to see that Anthony Arnove is perhaps the more dynamic force behind this project. Arnove is a longtime acolyte of the International Socialist Organization, a weird cult that proposes a Bolshevik-style revolution as the solution to all of America's and the world's problems.

Don't believe me?

> "The ISO stands in the tradition of revolutionary
> socialists Karl Marx, V.I. Lenin and Leon Trotsky..."

http://internationalsocialist.org/what_we_stand_for.html

They seem to have removed the part about replacing the Congress and courts with "worker's councils" but that is a recent amendment to their declaration.

They do condemn the Democrats as the party of "Southern slaveholders," and reject all Democratic candidates. They don't have any kind of credible or even rational plan to move things in a positive direction through political action at the electoral level. At election time, they are vandals, and speaking from direct experience and deep involvement, I can testify that their role in peace and justice movements is on the whole more harmful than it is helpful.

It is sad to see the old and frail Prof. Zinn allowing himself to be exploited by this very negative force in the American leftist scene.

i am a social studies teacher and i have used zinn's book since i began teaching history full-time in 1996... i love opening my students' eyes and minds with his first chapter, "columbus, the indians, and human progress..."

i am a social studies teacher and i have used zinn's book since i began teaching history full-time in 1996... i love opening my students' eyes and minds with his first chapters, "columbus, the indians, and human progress..."

P.S. Don't look for Mr. Zinn on National TV anytime soon. Read his work and you will know why.

Peace.

Bravo Johnniecakes, have voted for Leonard for the past 4-5 Presidential elections. That pissant Clinton wouldn't Pardon him. Leonard didn't have the bribes to pay like that fellow Rich who got the Pardon. We are nothing if not irony deficient. Wounded Knee was the host of Massacre in the 19th century and the 20th century thanks to the FBI and COINTELPRO. In a short time The US won't be mounting any more Massacres of anyone.

Peace.

Will it include updates from the last 25 years? After all, that is when the paradigm shift from the Constitution became obvious.

Speaking of struggles of Native Americans, I would implore Mr. Zinn or whoever edits this upcoming documentary to make people of the 32 year incarceration of Leonard Peltier and the 60+ Native people who were killed during the Reign of Terror in the 70's.
www.leonardpeltier.org

Zinn's "People's History" is a treasure. We can only hope that a few of our nation's sheep tune in long enough to see a picture of the USA that they never in their wildest sheep dreams could have imagined. Unfortunately, few outside the choir will ever hear the singing. I'd cancel a trip to Cheney's funeral to watch it.

beyondempire,

There is a social studies conference scheduled for next spring in Buffalo, part of which will discuss the inclusion of People's History in NY State Ed curriculum.

The time is certainly right for the promotion of this work which values the individual more than just as a market commodity or cannon fodder, which is all we are to both Republicans and Democrats.

The key sentence in this article is "project.....has not yet been sold to a network". Will any network pick up this work and put it in a slot that can actually reach the "sheeple", and will they watch it. I love the idea of a film version but perhaps a better way to distribute the text of this most important book would be for school boards all over the country to include this book in all high school American History courses.

Finally, network TV will shine light on this darkened world.

I might actually turn on my TV for this. I hate TV but I love Howard Zinn.

Perhaps they could sell Zinn to PBS. They do an excellent job with documentaries and do not have commercials exceept during begging time and at the beginning of hours.

I'm cynical of anything slated to be on the BOX. I'll believe it when I see it and will be VERY interested in what's left once it's edited. Whoever has the courage to pick it up, should also allow Sibel Edmunds the airtime she has requested from EVERY major media outlet.