LOL, all these talks of theories thats so high in the sky makes me want to laugh so much.....

Lets all go work in a sweatshop, breath in air filled with coal for the rest of our lives....don't worry, during all these times your firm beliefs in either creationism or evolution will pull you through(please note this is suppose to act as a reminder not condemnation....I apologize for lack of better wording)

and to forwhatisworth.....I hate criticizing in anyway even if I am pretty sure I am have a good argument, but you have hit a spot which really hurts. Tell all that to the people who have died in wars, natural disasters, human manupulation, and all those who are still suffering from one or other forms of oppression, ignorance, life's experiences, or even simply births at the "wrong place" etc etc. And to the people who are doing the best they can to combat and prevent these in real life, and to those who are trying to learn form the blood,sweat,hate, love,tears and laugher of countless people over countless decades before them who tried to improve the world in their own way--------THOSE IDIOTS NEED TO HEAR YOUR VOICE OF GOD TO GET THEIR SALVATION!!!THEY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT SIN, GUILT, THE TRUTH!!!!!THEY NEED GODS BLESSING AND SPIRITUAL EYES SHIPPED TO THEM OVERNIGHT THROUGH UPS!!!!

That's an interesting theological theory forwhatitsworth, but I think Jews and Muslims (for a start) would object to being categorized as atheists. And even if what you've said is true (aside from the denial that stress, anxiety, chronic fatique or restless leg syndrome exist--that's indisputably incorrect), it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. All the Christians I know accept evolution as science and Genesis as allegory. And if you say that means they don't believe Jesus is God, then I'll know you're a liar to be ignored.

More powerful drug than opium indeed! Jesus is nothing more than a mystery cult which originated in Ancient Egypt. He has not a whisp of influence in evolution, the movements of the stars planets nor in the 'hearts of men' He didn't die for our sins, and your claim that we have to know jc to know god is blasphemy. Yes, I do wear glasses, but I'm not blind. Nor do I have any 'spiritual' eyes; well, I suppose after a few alki bevies my eyes are affected by spirits. Sometimes I wake up with someone I don't want to wake up with after those evenings, I don't drink that much anymore...

people will never be able to believe in God..unless they believe in Jesus Christ..then you can know God..and the only way to believe in Jesus Christ is to have your blind eyes open to see that guilt is the underlying problem of all problems...there is no such thing as stress or anxiety or chronic fatique or even restless leg syndrome..there is guilt..worry gets mixed up in with guilt and the devil uses that to confuse people to the real problem..there are two types of guilt..1.that is the guilt from the things you have done wrong..2.and there is guilt from what people have done to you..Jesus death on the cross dealt with both... his great love and his substitutional death for sin..i hope you will pray to have your spiritual eyes opened to this great truth..that is to know God you have to know Jesus...God bless

barely human;
But it's a most fun discussion. I misstated about the question I asked my proff too. I asked him where the big bang happened, not where the centre of the universe is. Not that it matters much, afaik no scientist has seen the 'edge' of the universe. What we can see is about 12-15 billion years away, with better telescopes we might see further, or there might be nothing there. It's still infinate, and the centre of an infinate expanse is where you are; right?

My grandfather was a priest who loathed fundy's, said they were blasphemers of the lowest form as they worshiped a book rather than god. He always argued that the scientists told us how the world was created and the best the bible could do was to try and tell us why it was.

We can see only so far in all directions. That doesn't make us the center of the universe, it makes us the center of our sphere of vision.

And we're supposed to believe there are unnamed and amorphous authorities who've made "discoveries" that contradict everything we've read about science, and even believe their illogical and conveniently pulled-out-of-nowhere "facts?" I don't think so.

lpenek of course you are correct, but with forwhatitsworth we aren't discussing relativity. Whoever they are may well have seen some kind of discussion along those lines - but what they believe is that it means the Earth is literally, and uniquely, the center of the universe. There is no sophisticated thought going on here. They don't understand that their description of what is going on with the flu virus "there are microbes that have an intrinsic ability to survive certain drugs and some that dont have this ability..the ones that do proliferate" applies to every living organism, including humans, and that therefore we continue to evolve, as a simple statement of logic. I know there is no point in argument here, but it served to entertain me for a few hours.

Weight an evangelist carries with God = 1 billigram

Actually both sides are right and wrong at the same time. To wit (whatever the hell that means): A common misconception is that the galaxies are receding from each other, but actually it is space that is expanding, creating the illusion that galaxies recede from all directions. But they would do that no matter where you are in the universe, just as dots on a balloon all distance themselves from each other as the balloon is blown up. Who woulda known? In other words, every point in the universe is the center, and none are. Now is everyone happy?

Yes, I can see a bunch of people sitting around taking turns on the keyboard logged in as 'forwhatitsworth". They are biologists, and astronomers, physicists and chemists, paleontologists and geologists, and they are laughing their heads off as they make up more and more outrageous things. Oh come on, they will say, in between beers, no one could believe that even an evangelical was that stupid (http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/Religion/). And then they write stuff about Earth being the center of the universe, and the rest of the universe being made out of "simple stuff", and they laugh and laugh and laugh. What else can you do?

Back in my uni days I took astronomy (not astrology, like a creationist would prefer to take I'm sure) and asked the prof where the centre of the universe was. He looked at me raised both hands and pointed his thumbs outwards. After all, what is the centre of infinity? Someone/thing that lives on a planet tens of thousands of parsecs from us would also be able to claim that they are the centre of the universe, and they'd be as right about it as we would be.

Really cool thing I learned in astronomy is the study of how the stars themselves evolve. Growing from stars that burn only H, to He, then thru the atomic chart til they burn Fe; How the explosions from billions of years ago made the very atoms that make us what we are and use today. That is something that gives true meaning to the word awe. Far greater than any god mankind can imagine is the universe, especially when seen far from the lights of human civilization.

Of course forwhatitsworth is a plant, and is having fun playing devil's advocate. Shame he/she isn't doing a very good job of it.

mr p ...nobody knows who"they" are..but seriously you need to catch up on the latest findings of cosmology..they have plotted all the galaxies and distances..and lo and behold the center of all these concentric circles end up with earth the bullseye...whoopps there it is!!!and all that matter you speak of...is simple stuff a few elements for planets and hydrogen and helium for the stars..life is much much more complicated..God was only practicing making stuff before he made life..God bless

I like the idea of the center of creation moving around the sun. I think that's one of those colorless green ideas Chomsky talked about.

forwhatitsworth must be some kind of plant - a group of evolutionary biologists having a laugh perhaps. I like "no additional information added to the genes" what do you imagine that means? Do you have any concept at all of what genes are? How DNA functions? But even better I like "they have discovered that the earth is the center of creation". Um, who is they? Do you actually know what the solar system looks like? Do you know what our galaxy looks like, and where we sit within it? And do you have any concept of the infinite number of other galaxies out there? And if you do, not only couldn't you spout nonsens about us being in the center of anything, but you might just ask yourself - "what is all the rest of the matter in the universe for?

skippyagogo41..flu does not evolve every year
there are microbes that have an intrinsic ability to survive certain drugs and some that dont have this ability..the ones that do proliferate..there is no additional information added to the genes

luckylefty..for your info they have discovered that the earth is the center of creation..and the earth goes a little over 1000 mph(the earth diameter is 25000miles)and also the earth travels around the sun at close to 70000 mph or about 1,6000,000 a day and about 50,000,000 a month and about 600,000,000 a year..both of yall need to get real and get your facts straight...god bless..

Hubcap-halo___ liked your list of Christian beliefs,and they seem pretty accurate. It is depressing to think they cannot do better than that, but so it seems. I guess the real sincere ones have as much trouble getting anywhere as the people of the USA have in changing our governments policies.

"It used to be the word of God, now it's just some guy's opinion."

Seems to work all right for Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, to name just a few.

I'd like to recommend a paraphrase version of the Bible that's shown itself to be very helpful to some people who just can't figure out what the Bible is saying--not that I take any version literally,but Eugene Peterson's The Message is an extraordinary contemporary language version.

ggpearl to Daniel David: "Where is the female in all you propose?

I actually didn't intend to "propose" anything. But I do think the Christian gospel has a power of its own to attract some people when those people delve into it. My post above was to encourage anyone who would like to try it out without the specific influence of a particular church. One guy had asked if one can have God without religion. I think it's possible.

As for "the female" in religion, I'm aware that the Catholic Church, for instance, has attempted to elevate a sort of female deity with their heavy, heavy emphasis on The Virgin Mary. I'm not a Catholic, so I can't speak to how well that really works for female members of that church.

As for my hopes for you, I'd hope you would try my suggestion with the Good News Bible if you want to, but I didn't mean that post to be any sort of exhortation that I think everyone must do so because I say so. My hopes for you would be that you find your best peace in the way that works best for you and your background.

I have to go to work PJD, but would like to quickly say that I am having problems with anything that sets up a heirarchy. IMO Religion is just faith used to promote heirarchy. It sets up certain people as dominant over others based upon some belief that the ones in power have a right to be dependent upon srtictures and rules conceived by the ruling class.

I don't have the same issues with hinduism or buddhism that I have with the other 3 abrahamic faiths.

"Why can't one believe in God without religion?"

i'd prefer a religion without belief in God.

And, of course such things exist - Buddhism and Hinduism. Hinduism may have all their various gods and demigods, but they understand that these gods are metaphors for truths that cannot be explained in normal narrative - and thet're colorful cultural expressions too. Hindus don't regard Shiva or Krisna or Ganesh as "real" in the infantile way that Christians and Muslims and some Jews regard their monothestic god.

Daniel David- I understand your words and your attempt to salvage the sense of spirituality we share as humans. But, I cannot give heed to these writings about men for just men. The ammalgamation of writings through history, compiled by Constantine and the Nicean council (all men) do not represent even a fraction of everything that has been writen about this particular religion.

I also know of the vast history and prehistory of these 3 main religions from that area of the world.

Judaism used to be about a male and female divinity-the Steppe invaders from the Asian continent swept down, bringing viscious male Sky lord stories and in the archaeological record, the female aspect of the divine was removed. It was transformed from an more animistic, environmentally oriented belief into one of conquest and power for the chosen male followers of a very male oriented religion.

Where do women fit into this picture for you? Saying God, or the Lord has nothing feminine in it. I remember as a child being so hurt and so angry that half of the world's population was negated, called evil and relegated to such a little role. And what do have to show for it...a world where the aspect of Mother Nature is being destroyed. Women's ability to control their own bodies and hence the world's populations have exploded, and have been taken over and dictated.

I cannot spiritually condone anything that takes the writings in revelations about punishment and enslavement as the end result.

As a woman, and a native american....what good has the gospels done for me, my world, or our future? Will you hope I "see the light" for my souls sake? Otherwise, I will be doomed, as my ancestors were to die by the sword, or suffer in hellfire for all eternity? This is a sad sad story, that has been repeated for far too long.

Tell me, what is the difference between the Star of the morning and the Morning Star? If Jesus is King of the World, does this negate the notion that Satan was given mastery? Are they in fact the same entity?

How is it sanely possible to think that the teachings of love from Jesus can be equated with the punishments that this same entity will meet out to those who do not believe? Insofar as I can remember, both his love and his vengence are discussed in those gospels.

Where is the female in all you propose? Where are my ancestors rights? This aspect of western godhood is an abusive entity, threatening punitiveness on "his" children for not worshipping him and him alone. That only speaks to half of the equation.

I've heard that some of the most compelling arguments against evolution and for creationism are made by the The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) in California.
I once was on their free newsletter list.

As for what we teach children, the last time I looked, most of it was coming from a corporation. The textbook publishers are incorporated, the research houses are incorporated, most of the churches are incorporated, the school districts are incorporated, even the teachers' unions are "entities".

As for Jesus, he is not incorporated, and never was.
Ezeflyer asked above "Why can't one believe in God without religion?" The answer is you absolutely can, and here is my suggestion to you if you want to try it for yourself.

Obtain a copy of the "Today's English Version (TEV) of the New Testament portion of the Bible. This was a completely new translation to English (not a paraphrase) done by dozens of scholars working for the American Bible Society in the 1960's and was called then "Good News for Modern Man". After they also finished the New Testament in 1976, it was called the Good News Bible. It is, in my opinion, the most honest (not "churched up") translation ever done into English, including several done more recently--some to be dumbed down and others to be "churched up".

Therein read the four "gospel" books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John alone. If you feel any softening of your defensive attitude, you may assume that The Holy Spirit is touching you. Ask PRIVATELY in your own words to be forgiven for whatever you have done wrong in your life, and ask Jesus to come into your heart and reveal His words to you. If you "ask, seek, and knock, the door will be opened to you", just as it says.

You CAN have God without "religion" and that's the best way I know to get Him, and possibly even change your eternity, depending on what YOU come to believe about that. Forget about the King James version of the Bible. We haven't talked that lingo for 400 years, and even then, some of it was sort of "formed" to fit the theology of the day. If you want a translation that wasn't, get the Good News. And be aware that words may "come alive" off the page to you. When you strip away corporations and sectarianism, Jesus stands alone and He is neither a myth nor powerless.

Wow! This all a bit much for me. I guess you could say that I'm awe-struck. (No, not Shock and Awe, but AWE as in wonder at the extraordinary multiplicity of viewpoints expressed here and the passion behind them. Yet, I'll have to admit that I'm even more AWE-STRUCK by existence itself. When I reflect upon our lives and the universe in which I am privileged to dwell (and also conscious that I'm committed to living on earth at this particular moment in time whether or not I want to), I'm just blown away.

Although I accept the Christian meaning-story, I don't feel circumscribed by it. The same way with evolution, I don't think of it as a theory, but as the most accurate picture of what has happened and what will happen. But I don't think of it as necessarily complete. There's still a lot more to be disclosed about both faith and science. No way do I think that the book is closed. However, I'm beginning to think that we haven't a whole lot more time as a human race to be discovering new stuff about what makes us tick.

There has been some rather insightful discussion here about Evolution and Creationism.
Yes, social darwinism (ala Spencerian elitism) works very well for capitalism. Selfishness is the key, as is Manifest Destiny, rugged individualism, and anything that places the onus on the individual. The notion that for capitalists is that if you work hard you will have money...equates very well with the Calvinistic mindset that if you are rich you are favored by God.

Now, let's throw into the mix evangelicals, muslim fanatics and zionists.

Because these folks cannot see or have been prevented from accepting anthropological evidence to the contrary the long period of time that humans have been evolving (yes yes blink of an eye geologically, but stay with me) they cannot will not see that altrusim and compassion was foundational to our survival as a species for millenia.

Heirarchies, priestly castes-their establishment which created that familiar pyramid amway scam of universal proportions skewed us down this path. King God, whether phaoroh, or sky wizard, or even CEO has enslaved us...and removed the inherent notion of community survival and environmental respect.

Socially speaking maybe we are reaching a point of punctuated equilibrium (rip lovely Mr Gould).

Many Native philosophies believe that we exist on 3 levels- animal (basic), human (abstract thought), and spirit (that which is non-quantifiable)...and so I believe in the notion of spirit. In my own view, there is no exclusivity.

However, if I look at the social evolution aspects of humanity I see a disturbing attempt to regress backwards toward the same pyramid scam that the three middle eastern Abrahamic models are based on. These three work very very well with the multinational corporations NWO. It is the exact same set up.
God as punisher and enslaver of his children that do not believe. The corporations do the same things....they have merged. They have created themselves into both the Savior and the Devil...the 'devil' aspect will destroy lifeways and force us into hellish slavery....but the free market will liberate us. The NWO will be our global salvation. This is all done with the eager blessings of the same heirarchical religions. It has been the biggest social programming effort now come to fruition.

If, as a country we can no longer condone such concepts as child abuse and enslavement......why do we continue to tolerate religions that promote these two very horrendous concepts? Many of us here see what these big business conglomerates are doing but we continue to compartmentalize. Corporate and God induced environmental destruction added in as stated in most of the End Times writings.

We have to stop thinking that we as individuals can keep our beliefs from our politics /economics etc. Does this mean I advocate for no seperation of church and state-NO. But the false notion that we can has been very useful for those who wish global domination.

I am not negating any spiritual guru's messages-but it seems to me they have been co-opted and twisted.

I know this sounds strange, and excuse my rambling, I am coming down with a head cold. I feel lousy. However, I also feel compelled by all of the info I have accumulated to create some sense of the Big Pattern/Picture. There is a story of epic proportions in our history as a species.

Again, history repeats, and we are caught in a vast negative feedback loop-where is the trigger to shift us away from it?

This story is so large...perhaps we can even refer to it...as The Book of Life. And maybe it is time to rewrite the ending TPTB have been engineering for us for their own power and enrichment at the xpense of everything we hold dear.
Time to evolve- eve-love
G

Oh yeah, I was laughing so hard I forgot,

forwhatitsworth, You don't even know your own flat-earth genocidal religion. They poured and you drank the Kool-Aid.

Your flat-earth, genocidal Blood God Jahweh, according to the accounts written by a tribe of flat-earth, genocidal pastoralist killer nomads - created a FIXED universe, finished final, over, and done. The Earth did not move in that universe. It did NOT spin at 1700mph, it did not move at 24000mph in its orbit around the Sun.

No.No.NO. The Sun rose in the East because in your flat-earth model this planet was the Center of the entire Universe as you were the "pinnacle" of Creation. Not merely a part of one Solar System in a local neighborhood of 400 billion stars and surrounded by 40 billion galaxies, everything moving, everything evolving - NOOOO. Granular, fixed, Absolute Reality - then you spend your life killing everythiong that moves.

You are a mushroom forwhatitsworth. So am I. We are the fruit of Life (the creature is a subsurface integrated organism that may extend over several acres and produces mushrooms as fruit). Life buds, Life blossoms, Life makes more, Life dies. So do mosquitos. Get over it. You may eventually come to celebrate it.

Your kindred spirits tortured, mangled, mutilated, and burned alive any human being who said the Earth moved and your fellows would do so again today if they had the power. That is the only legacy of the most genocidal religion ever known in the history of our species.

Pray for forgiveness.

Peace.

forwhatitsworth you wrote: Bible tells you that first God started the earth turning on it axis and then he started it revolving around the sun..if there had been a big bang..all those particles would have just continued forever since there is no gravity and no friction to slow them down..

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-hE-HE-hE-HE-hE-HE-hE-HE-hO-hO-hO-HO-H0-
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-hO-hO-hO-HO-H0-hE-HE-hE-HE-hE-HE-hE-HE

I JUST SNORFED MY COFFEE...thank you forwhatitsworth

Should "he" be "HEEEE!"?

Current "Christian Beliefs"

Jesus was white

Pre emptively invading a country that was no threat to us is ok

4000 dead US soldiers is ok in achieving "victory" in Iraq, whatever victory is this week.

500,000-1,000,000 dead Iraqis is ok because we say so. "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply to us.

But it applies to people who have abortions.

It's better to let Weapons makers abscond with pallettes of cash than to fund programs for the poor. (If you vote republican you support this powerfully).

The young Iraqi girl refugees now forced into prostitution (forced rape) are god's will and the spreading of democracy by our wonderful leader George Bush

It's more important to stop boys from kissing and marrying than to stop Halliburton from raping the treasury, to stop Cheney from shredding our constitution, or to stop U.S. soldiers from dying in Iraq.

Fight for the baby's life until it is born. Once it is born, it's on it's own.

Speak constantly and self righteously of a love for Jesus Christ without following ANY of his teachings.

GavinGourly you wrote: We could set aside some land for them - they could go and live there in a mud hut, go to church six times a week and die of cholera. It would be like the Dark Ages all over again.

You just described the US in about 30 years. Don't forget the STDs, they're going to bite more than a few of the "Righteous" in the ass.

All the best....

Peace.

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Believing in "microevolution" but not "macroevolution" is like believing in inches but not in miles. Read about ring species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species). Evolution is a "fact," not a "theory."

"Society advances where its fittest members are allowed to assert their fitness with the least hindrance." You can see why that has been absorbed into our cultural subconscious: it is entirely compatible with capitalism - which has also assimilated the concepts of freedom and democracy into its dark manoeuverings. It surfaces in the most disconcerting places, like our National Health Service (UK). Here, people most in need of help - the old, the obese, smokers and so on - are denied help simply because of their need. What a reversal of the principles of socialism. The rejection of this is also obvious in such a culture. Its ideal envisages those who can helping those who cannot - society's fittest members acknowledging common humanity with its least fit members and using their abilities to help them. As if. Selfishness is all in a capitalist society, and selfishness is an extremely attractive temptation which few can resist.

Sorry to be so basic about this but:
In my humble opinion the people who push Creationism, in this enlightened day and age, are nothing short of religious fundamentalists, and are polluting the minds of all who they teach. Their core beliefs, are based on taking the teachings of the Old Testament of the bible literally. As one who attended a Catholic school in my youth, we were always told that the Old Testament was used to illustrate to early people a story, and that they would decry it as heresy, if it bore any relation to Darwin' theory.
Science does not have all the answers, but it does have a very rough idea of how old the earth is, and quite unsurprisingly, that figure is slightly older than 4500 years.
Fortunately, in the UK, Creationism has not yet taken a hold, I for one hope that it stays that way.

They (modern creationists, ie IDers) would call it "microevolution," the latest skirt they're hiding behind. I advise everyone to read "The Naked Emperor" by Anthony Latham, a creationist who gives a surprisingly succint and excellent overview of evolution and paleontoglogical evidence. Never mind that he discounts the evolitionary sequence to modern horse as microevolution and claims the analogous sequence to modern human is a hoax.
In the 80's creationists made a full frontal retreat to lick their wounds. They realized that "young earth" was never going to fly, with the exception of forwhatitsworth -- (very little, if he's "for real"). They have returned en-masse with a different strategy, not to present positive evidence, but rather to combat scientific certainty with the negative notion of incomplete data. They now claim that biological structures are too complex to have evolved and give hand waving statistical arguments. Unfortunately for them, their position is even more precarious than if they had just stuck to their guns because now each year will drive them further into obscurity.

Paul, good try, but they would say that such a mechanism explains change within a species. They have never understood that the second part of Darwin's original insight was allopatric (geographic) speciation which causes one or multiple species to deveop where there was one before.

It stands to reason that (a) each generation inherits from its parents, (b) those who are most healthy/fertile/adapted/etc. have more offspring and (c) thus pass on their traits with greater frequency.

It's just that simple. Which part do the creationists disagree with? DNA itself? Since when did their god demand the rejection of empirical evidence?

Why on Earth would you want to believe in either?

Why can't one believe in God without religion?

Forwhatitsworth either you're willfully ignorant or you're having fun playing devil's advocate. I suspect the latter. If you really believe that evidence of evolution was planted by the devil, or god, to creat doubt in the minds of the faithful... The idea that god screws around with us that much comes from the book of Job, if god really acts like that then he/she isn't worth worshipping.
The god of the old testament is a sadistic god. The Jesus cult of the new testament is a recreation of the Dionysus cult, and/or some ancient Egyptian mystery cults. If you want brainwashing you'll have to talk to the priests who peddle those gods as a 'loving' 'gentle lamb' who wants your money, and will torture you forever if you don't give cash to the priest.
The flu evolves every year. QED
God doesn't come up with a different creation of flu each year, if he/she did why do the faithful catch it? Perhaps because they don't give enough cash to his priests.

Thoughts on theories and opinions

Theory of Relativity, Quantum Physics, Intelligent Design, Evolution; All these are tied together. For as a final determination is made in the debate on which of these is linked to another of these theory's or opposed, what ever the case may be, science will have to lie down with spirituality.

Relativity; A macrocosm of things physical , you could compare this to the body physical in that both are constrained within time and space. There are, of course, other theories that deal with the macrocosm, like the string theory and black holes and others I don't remember. String theory is an attempt to put wave physics into Relativity but to me, it is the first step in the engagement leading to the marriage of Relativity and Quantum. This is where the heart is, in relativity, as part of the body physical.

Quantum Physics; Particles and waves, The neatness of Relativity does not exist here. A witness will determine what action will take place. This is the Uncertainty Principal and the only thing that is known is that the potential for uses is unlimited. And yes it has been proven by experiment. All they have to do is figure out how it works. Sticking with a parallel to the human body; This is where the ego and free will are. One foot in the spirit and one in the physical. For a one word description, this is the mind. The final entry in the Theory of all is some form of electrical energy; Magnetism, gravity. I just don't know. Is the Creator electricity? No, but electricity is a manifestation of the Creator. This is not the soul, but where it comes through.

Intelligent Design; A human explanation for something that the mind cannot and will not be able to categorize and put in a place or situation where they can say; This is the way creations came about. There is one thing that I believe and that is that God, Creator, and what ever name you might want to use. Is way much more than any mind can imagine. Had a dream once that I was part of this big body but I could not figure out what part. Was I blood or a more specific part doing my duty to keep the whole functioning? Religions, sects, isms all try to put the

Creator into a box and claim exclusive knowledge and access to the Creator. God is not a respecter of persons, and where was everybody at when the heavens were created? That says it all; Nobody, nada, nothing is number #1 on the Creators list. Christ was up there but even he knew that he had to toe the line and not just do it but to want to do it with all his being. Is this a key? This is where the soul is.

Evolution; As true as intelligent design and why not? For it was set up by the creator. Everything, I mean everything in creation is evolving. Lets just take humans. How long have we been evolving? From the moment of creation to today is how long and how long in years? Does it really make a difference? From my perspective religion and science still do not have a clue as to what the Creator did. One thing, evolution, for me, proves reincarnation is fact because if souls do not try again and again to get it right then the whole Creator, creation thing is one big joke on us all.

You can see where my beliefs lie and you can see, for me, that the Creator is
Tony 12/3/06

Love the idea of am evangelical thinking that the rest of the non-evangelical (including, gasp, atheists) world is brainwashed! This is like a debate with a medieval peasant, aware only of what the priest told him. And the modern version of that priest is keeping a large proportion of the American population as ignorant as their medieval counterparts. How can education fail this badly?

mr pickwick..dont be afraid..Jesus loves you..i can see tho that you are a unwitting product of the brainwashing you have experienced..dont you get it ..evolution is used by the devil to undermine the Gospel..did you know for instance that for 1500 years the Bible could not be translated to the common man... only the elite knew latin..because they elite knew the gospel was true and would liberate the common folk..so they suppressed it..now days it is not suppressed but it is undermined by the devil..he uses the constant harange of evolution...God bless you mr p...thanks

Two thousand years of science thrown away in a paragraph! I realise this is pointless, but what the heck. Yes, fossils do generally have to be covered up "right away" (although the right away would vary from a day to several years, that is partly why fossils vary in how well preserved they are). And if there had been "A flood" (whatever you think that means on a world wide scale) then some fossils would probably have resulted from that event. But if you believe that, then why on earth can't you understand that every geological layer has resulted from an event, or, more usually, a series of events, ranging from very localised events (such as the La Brea tar pits, or small lake deposits) to more extensive ones (for example over a flood plain of a river, or in a delta). And that the layers are found one on top of another, many hundreds, probably thousands (depending on the detail you are working with) of layers. And that, even forgetting that we can use the same technology that makes nuclear power stations to date those layers, we can certainly date the upper layers by the physical contents, trace them back through the kind of time period you are familiar with to the earliest civilisations of Europe and the Middle East, back through still earlier human links to the iron and bronze and stone ages. And then even deeper to layers that don't have human remains, and earlier and earlier. And the contents of all those layers are consistent - there is never a fossil out of place, never a human bone (or tool) found with dinosaurs, or early amphibians, or early fish or early invertebrates. Nevr any consistency from the lowest layers up to the ones that we can date in relation to human activity. And never any inconsistency in the tree rings, or pollen evidence, or soil formation, or in the dozens of different independent radioactive or chemical dating methods. The ignorance of all this contained in "forwhatitsworth's" paragraph is stunning and frightening and depressing.

kelmer: "Philosophy of religion 300 teaches that theism and secularism and mysticism are all religious systems."

George Carlin: "Calling atheism a belief system is like calling 'off' a television channel."

adrienrain wrote:

I don't see why not! Christians have been reading the Sermon on the Mount for centuries, then going about the bloody business of war and business, on the grounds that, as Jesus was divine, the rest of us can't be expected to emulate him effectively………….. we will have to rely on our simple faith to get us into heaven…………

Not all Christian denominations teach the justification by faith alone doctrine.

In any event, no matter how badly Christians may have fallen short of the godly example of Christ, at least the example was there. Some of it got through. Now human beings seem to grow ever more Hobbesian.

Have the Darwin reference, btw:

In _Descent of Man_, chapter 4, section 16, Darwin refers to Spencer as "our great philosopher." These two men were not opposed, and their teachings are congruent - of course they are. One follows the other. Want to improve the species? Eugenics is the way to go.

The ancients knew about the possibility of eugenics, naturally. If you can breed dogs and horses, you can breed human beings - why not? But they did not, of course, have "scientific" justification. Modern enlightenment was required for that. The wasteland grows.

Muggle5 - how can they work side by side, when they appear to be antithetical?

Muggle5___ I agree with you that this is all a pretty big waste of time and we have better things to worry about. Take a look at the Grand Canyon or many other works of nature that took millions of years to gradually evolve, and you will realize that evolution is the only answer. Then watch a baby calf or other favourite animal`s young get up and be nursing it`s mother in 15 minutes and you will realize God has created things that could not have evolved from some mud in a lagoon. Even though humans are so disappointing sometimes, they are works of art also in their own way. We need to stop this silly discussion that everything has to be either-or and believe it is more likely both theories working side by side.

dwatkin wrote:
" For example, you can't debunk the divinity of Christ and then expect the Sermon on the Mount to retain its power."

I don't see why not! Christians have been reading the Sermon on the Mount for centuries, then going about the bloody business of war and business, on the grounds that, as Jesus was divine, the rest of us can't be expected to emulate him effectively.............. we will have to rely on our simple faith to get us into heaven...............

Wise christians oppose the theory of evolution for the same reason the opposed newtonian mechanics: the idea that the stars are not moved across the sky by angels, but carried around by conservation of momentum.

I love the idea of constant evolution propaganda being spewed out. I suppose it happens on the same media outlets that spew out round Earth propaganda, gravity theory propaganda, and propaganda about chemical reactions, geological processes, medical treatments, nuclear physics, astronomy, archeology. Just so much propaganda that good creationists just can't settle to reading the good book which contains all the information they could possibly need to know.

the missing link is that these people are only "so called christians" who have been brainwashed by the constant evolution propaganda that is spewed out ..."the road is narrow.. and few be that find it" and "many are called but few are chosen"
and also i think alot of atheist "can't" believe in God rather then " don't "..what i mean is that unconsciously from time to time they try to imagine infinity and eternity and like everyone else in the world they can't grasp it..nobody can..and so they take this in ability and so they can't(don't) believe in God ..thats my rant..thanks

The powerful in any society have time on their hands, money to spend, amplified voices, and an inherent interest in affirming their own place as a deserved outcome, not a fluke. While I am personally a non-biblical Jesus follower (don't believe the book is history or science, but believe God exists and Jesus was his messenger), I am confident that it doesn't matter whether science or religion provides the ruling ideas... the rulers will always find a way to justify their rule, and to keep it that way.

Much better for the powerless to stop fighting amongst ourselves and work together for things we agree on, for whatever reason of chemical accident or spirit-inspiration: justice, peace, equity, stewardship of the planet. We agree on these things so dangerously for the powers-that-be, and they know it, which is why we must be made to hate each other. Don't let them have their way.

Ken Hymes

Reading all this god crap reminds me of the fact that we are our own worst enemy-- and an evolutionary fluke as well as per my favorite lines:
***********************
Conservationist's Lament
By Kenneth Boulding
In: Man's Role in Changing the Face of the Earth, 1956
University of Chicago Press, p. 1087

The world is finite, resources are scarce,
Things are bad and will be worse.
Coal is burned and gas exploded,
Forests cut and soils eroded.
Wells are dry and air's polluted,
Dust in blowing, trees uprooted,
Oil is going, ores depleted,
Drains receive what is excreted.
Land is sinking, seas are rising,
Man is far too enterprising,
Fire will rage with Man to fan it,
Soon we'll have a plundered planet.
People breed like fertile rabbits,
People have disgusting habits.

Moral: The evolutionary plan went astray by evolving Man.

Thank you Sean Gonsalves.

Still waiting for us to become human... Fully human... Humane... Respect, everyone?

Until we are all safe...until there is justice and peace for all...there is no safety or justice or peace for any one.

Respect?

------------

Kelmer,

Just saw this: kelmer: "mysticism is for adults, theism and secularism is for the toddlers."

Mmm...yummy brain food. thank u

Why is Zebra fish guy is playing with god's creation? Doesn't he believe that god has a purpose for everything?

Spencer believed in polygenesis (white is right, all other human lines are meant for extinction), and he also believed that women's brains were 1/5 the size of men's so therefore they were not as intelligent (misogynist). Two major strikes against him right there beside his other equally devious theories.

delete

Just because we know about men/women who walk this earth, don't imagine God to be just a stronger smarter more creative man/woman.

I think God reveals who God is. If you're in love with someone, you don't give them Rohrschacht tests every few minutes along with taking their blood pressure, temperature, pulse, etc. You trust your beloved will reveal him/herself over time.

Also threats don't work...at least, not so far.

I saw the Boston Globe account of the lawsuit a couple of days ago, and I'm convinced this dufus will lose in court. Here's why:

The battle between science and creationism has reached the prestigious Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, where a former researcher is claiming he was fired because he doesn't believe in evolution.

Nathaniel Abraham filed a lawsuit earlier this week in US District Court in Boston saying that the Cape Cod research center dismissed him in 2004 because of his Christian belief that the Bible presents a true account of human creation.

Abraham, who is seeking $500,000 in compensation for a violation of his civil rights, says in the suit that he lost his job as a postdoctoral researcher in a biology lab shortly after he told his superior that he did not accept evolution as scientific fact.

In a 2004 letter to Abraham, his boss, Woods Hole senior scientist Mark E. Hahn, wrote that Abraham said he did not want to work on "evolutionary aspects" of the National Institutes of Health grant for which he was hired, even though the project clearly required scientists to use the principles of evolution in their analyses and writing.

....the Abraham lawsuit pointedly raises the question: Can people work in a scientific field if they don't believe in its basic tenets?
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/12/07/biologist_fired_for_beliefs_suit_says/

How the hell can your "civil rights" be violated if you refuse to use the principles on which a project is based and then get fired because of that refusal?

Maybe it's time for scientific research facilities to more carefully screen their student applicants to weed out those who are unable to do the work because of their religious beliefs. Many rightwing colleges are producing such graduates, and it's time they learned they don't belong in the scientific community.

I just read Dawkins' essay "The Devil's Chaplain" last night, which correctly explains that our origin from nature "red in tooth and claw" doesn't preclude creating a society diametrically opposing it. We should celebrate the capacity to repudiate the means of our creation. Conservatives perversely refute the means of our creation and celebrate the brutality of nature. As usual, they have it all ass backward.
Actually it's a little ironic reading this essay as I once had a spirited email exchange with Gonzalves on the topic of Dawkins (which ended on a civil note). He probably wouldn't remember, but he stated not being able to tolerate Dawkins writings.

kelmer: "mysticism is for adults, theism and secularism is for the toddlers."

Right you are.

mr pickwick..the flat earth is what they call now a urban legend if you will check out the history..all the geologic processes you speak of came from "the flood" be cause there would be no fossils if they had'nt been covered up right away..and as far as astronomy goes the Bible tells you that first God started the earth turning on it axis and then he started it revolving around the sun..if there had been a big bang..all those particles would have just continued forever since there is no gravity and no friction to slow them down..and for the red shifts they harp on all the time if you are riding on something going 20 miles per second(earth)then when you look at something it is going to appear to be moving away..i hope you don't try to measure God's bushel with your peck...thanks...

dwatkins9 said in the first comment: "[evolution's] use in defense of an ethic of selfishness seems almost inevitable. The theory of evolution teaches that life is a tale told by an idiot. What good can come of that?
"You can't debunk religious beliefs and then expect to retain the values derived from those beliefs. For example, you can't debunk the divinity of Christ and then expect the Sermon on the Mount to retain its power."

On the contrary i do exactly that. My being inspired by the sermon on the mount goes back to roughly the same time as my atheism: 35 years ago, when I read the Bible from start to end and then beyond—history of it, archeology, logic, myth etc. I know of no good evidence that Christ, as portrayed in the various books that got stuck together for political reasons and called The Bible, ever existed. And yet, with humility and non-attachment here I am, caring more for my fellow beings than many christians i've met, touched and moved by the depths of the bible as mythology that has given us smart people like Blake and Milton, Rachel Carson and Hildegard von Bingen.

and btw Kelmer, not all secularists believe ANY one thing, even that there is no god. Scientific evolution does not hold that there is any "progress" at all, simply says there is adaptation to conditions, which are constantly changing, and consists of constant (so far) tendencies to fill empty niches, become more complex, and diversify. That's a tree, forever branching, not a snake climbing a pole toward god—or perfection.

i see 2 problems:
1) is lack of imagination, and believing anything you haven't imagined doesn't exist. It is not only a dangerous combination but is really annoying as well. And i imagine it makes life hard for those who limit themselves that way. It's the same voice that says "intermediate forms don't exist and I can't see how an eye got to be an eye without god to do it, so god musta dunnit." But with imagination—and long, patient, honest observation—one sees that intermediate forms do exist, all over. (see video A Flock of Dodos)
2) conservatives (George Lakoff's strong father people) tend to believe that good is forced on us, (notice, that is not that GOD is forced on us, although that is an unfortunate outcome of the misunderstanding.) That is, we are essentially evil, and thus only discipline from on high—-god, the father, god the father, etc. ... can make us behave well. Psychology (science again, that pesky devil) tells us that that is not true; that children raised with a reasonable—-not perfect but good enough—mix of love, wisdom, freedom, attention, privacy and other qualities will, by evolutionarily-devised psychophysiological processes, become attached, first to mom and then to others, and will develop compassion (literally, "to suffer with") so they naturally will act in a way that reflects and preserves their connection to themselves, their bodies, their unconscious, their families, (including non-human families) their communities (including ecological communities) and their world, without the devastating despair, and either collapse or hardening that comes from the feeling that we are separate and alone. With apologies to Shakespeare, there is no idiot at all, only the tale, and we tell it together.

The unbelievable fight against evolution (http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/Evolution/) is just one of the many battlefields in the battle between the reality-based world and the faith-based world. Conservatives operate in the latter, along with their evangelical helpers. Those of us who think the real world is important need to keep resisting Zebra Fish man with his scorpion tail wherever he rears his ugly head. But it is a wearying and soul destroying business - you'd think after 150 years the war would be won.

In the Book of Revelation, locusts with scorpion tails and human faces are to torment unbelievers for five months when the fifth trumpet sounds - Wikipedia

I am so looking forward to that (instantaneous evolution?).
A scorpion tail would be so useful, although sitting would be a problem.

"There's a missing link here."

For little me, it's a matter of the us/them dichotomy.
Social Darwinism allows the selfish thought of better/smarter-than-'them'.
Creationism implies that the way things are is the way it will always be.

Thus, the ones at the top are meant to be there. god said so.

Kelmer

I seriously doubt you can get far without knowing how you have been anywhere before.
So please refrain from the green beans theory.

I think what we call progress itself depends on accepting where we have been what we have been, and furthering.

So the tribals in Africa are what we definitely not moving towards.
And if we did not know our origins, we definintely would not know how to know what we do not know.

You can save yourself by becoming a Southern Baptist any day.

love
Zero

Right on Daniel David!

Where's the 'Missing Link'?

It's called failure for the brain stem to connect to the brain

Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »

I wonder if the creationists have notices how their talking points have "evolved" over the years? Just an observation.

Perhaps we should spend more time examining the one life form that is known to have been "created" (not natually evolved) and "created" by men, not by God.
That would be the corporations, and their several variations, public, privately held, Sub-S, not for profit, holding company, LLC etc. These things run from small to enormous, from short life spans to hundreds of years, and the study of what they eat and how they fight with each other is fascinating. Better even than imagining the dinosaurs of old, these behemoths are alive and roaming the earth today.

If children in science classes fully understood their origin and nature, they might grow up to better protect their society from these ravenous beasts. We may be arguing about the wrong class of "creatures" altogether and not even know that we are. We humans are amazing.

Don't care what the missing link is, but the nut who wants to sue biologists because of religeous discrimination is the weakest link by far...

My oh my what would the buddhists say?
You never see Buddhists caring about the origin of the species.
Why? Because it means nothing in the big picture.
Nothing.

The christians are right that "evolution" is just a theory--and it does get interpreted in the usual ways. Some humans take it as being like the Great chain of being, meaning that humans are "better than other lifeforms."

Others take it to mean survival of the fittest, and you get that whole social darwinism thing.

more recently people are saying it may mean survival of the luckiest.

But its all bullsh*t.

We could have been born out of a giant can of Green Giant peas and it wouldnt make a difference.

The sky isnt going to be any brighter, the grass inst going to grow any greener, and the most nettling fact is, we will NEVER know the truth of where life came from. No matter whether its deity or dna, we will always be guessing. Because humans cant know everything.

Philosophy of religion 300 teaches that theism and secularism and mysticism are all religious systems. The first believes there is a universe with a god behind it(and nothing beyond the god).
Secularists believe there is a universe with nothing beyond that, and mystics believe there is a universe, there may also be a god, but there would have to be something beyond that which is and will always remain a mystery.

if the three, the mystics are the most adult about it.
because secularists and theists fall into the trap of believing in a divine right, theists believe it comes from a deity, and secularists believe it comes from evolution.

Its one thing that christians can use against secularists--the idea that humans are better than other life.its understandable that christians believe that because they believe there is a big invisible human in the sky,--but for an atheist secularist, it shows a trace of theistic thinking, because it suggests a judgement call, and if the universe is mindless, how can it show favoritism? That's like saying humans are better than other life because the universe(a mindless object) says it is so. That's like saying "a is better than b because a chair says so."

Anyway
mysticism is for adults, theism and secularism is for the toddlers.

gavingourley,

I recommend that those who profess to believe that evolution is just some librul hoax put their position to the test by being exposed to a resistant form of TB. After all, if evolution is a hoax, then such microbial strains could never have "evolved".

It's quite hypocritical that creationists oppose reason and science while at the same time enjoying its benefits. They should refrain from air travel, sanitation, heating and air conditioning, using the internet and receiving medical care.

We could set aside some land for them - they could go and live there in a mud hut, go to church six times a week and die of cholera. It would be like the Dark Ages all over again.

Sorry, that's nonsense. A good "opinion" is a good opinion regardless of who delivered it. Thinking people can recognize a good idea as having applicability without having to imagine that it came from the mouth of some sort of god.

Didn't Darwin refer to Spencer as "our philosopher"?

Insofar as the theory of evolution debunks the divine origin of species in general, and the human species in particular, its use in defense of an ethic of selfishness seems almost inevitable. The theory of evolution teaches that life is a tale told by an idiot. What good can come of that?

You can't debunk religious beliefs and then expect to retain the values derived from those beliefs. For example, you can't debunk the divinity of Christ and then expect the Sermon on the Mount to retain its power. It used to be the word of God, now it's just some guy's opinion.