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Where's the 'Missing Link'?
In my neck of the woods - actually Woods Hole in Falmouth, Mass. to be exact - a new front in the "Culture War" has opened up.
A federal lawsuit has been filed against a biologist at the world-famous Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution by a zebra fish researcher named Nathaniel Abraham, alleging his civil rights were violated when he was fired because his belief in creationism.
The same day that story broke in the Cape Cod Times, the Associated Press had a story about how anti-evolutionists have come up with a new strategy in the battle against the unifying principle of the biological sciences.
The AP reported: "arguments for inserting skepticism, rather than religious concepts, into evolution lessons emerged after a federal court ruling nearly two years ago struck down the teaching of intelligent design in biology classes in Dover, Pa., said Michael Ruse, the director of Florida State University's program on the history and philosophy of science."
Ruse calls it "Strategy No. 4." What were the first three strategies?
Strategy No. 1: Prohibit teaching it. The 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial put an end to that strategy.
Strategy No. 2: Get creationism taught in schools - the literal biblical account of creation - as an alternative to the "theory" of evolution. But courts rejected that strategy in the 1980s, Ruse said.
Strategy No. 3: Promote "Intelligent Design (ID)" - the notion that "the universe's order and complexity is so great that science alone cannot explain it."
That strategy hit the legal wall in Dover, Penn., where a judge ruled that ID was religion-in-drag, pretending to be science, which meant teaching it in public schools constituted a violation of the separation of church and state.
And that brings us to Strategy No. 4: "Ruse described it as presenting evolution as an 'iffy hypothesis' instead of what it really is - a scientific theory 'that's accepted like the Earth goes around the sun.'"
The new strategy seems to be losing steam too. "A suburban Atlanta school board abandoned its effort to put stickers in high-school science books saying that evolution is 'a theory, not a fact,' and South Carolina's Board of Education rejected a proposal to require students to 'critically analyze' evolution."
I don't know what strategy our zebra fish creationist is employing but I do know that in the "culture wars," as our conservative brethren call it, the teaching of evolution is considered nothing less than a satanic assault on the image of God.
I confess my heresy: like the Jesuit theologian/paleontologist Pierre Teilhard did 50 odd years ago, I'm a believer whose made his peace with evolution. But then, I've never understood why science and faith are discussed as if they're mutually exclusive. Folks who think evolution is an inherently atheist argument or those who think evolution disproves the existence of God are people with little imagination.
The evolution vs. creationism debate may be an unavoidable political fight but much more relevant and revealing is what many evolution-believing secular conservatives and evolution-denying religious conservatives have in common: a belief in social Darwinism.
A popular misconception is that Darwin coined the phrase "survival of the fittest." Actually, Darwin's thang was "natural selection," which turns out to involve lots of cooperation.
The origin of "survival of the fittest" can be traced to British philosopher Herbert Spencer, who had an illustrious career justifying racism and imperialism with his pseudo-science 50 years after Darwin published The Origin of the Species.
Spencer bastardized Darwin's theory and attempted to apply his misunderstanding of evolution to politics and economics. Thus began a political tradition in this country that has reached its apogee today, in which public policy is seen as a vehicle to prevent the weak from being "parasites" on the "fit."
Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich marvels as I do at how "the modern Conservative Movement has embraced social Darwinism with no less fervor than it has condemned Darwinism."
Listen to Spencer's own words: "Society advances where its fittest members are allowed to assert their fitness with the least hindrance."
Listen to any domestic policy debate about crime or education and you'll hear Spencer lurking beneath the surface in arguments justifying everything from war to incarceration rates on down to wealth disparities.
All that supply-side, Ronald Reagan, freedom stuff about meritocracies and the liberal conspiracy to "dumb-down" America with egalitarianism is social Darwinism - in defense of the liberty of the "natural aristocracy."
So while science battles evolution-opponents, I'm trying to understand a conservative political species that opposes evolution on religious grounds while supporting social Darwinism on the political and economic grounds.
There's a missing link here.
Sean Gonsalves is a syndicated columnist and an assistant news editor with the Cape Cod Times. He can be reached at sgonsalves@capecodonline.com
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74 Comments so far
Show AllDidn't Darwin refer to Spencer as "our philosopher"?
Insofar as the theory of evolution debunks the divine origin of species in general, and the human species in particular, its use in defense of an ethic of selfishness seems almost inevitable. The theory of evolution teaches that life is a tale told by an idiot. What good can come of that?
You can't debunk religious beliefs and then expect to retain the values derived from those beliefs. For example, you can't debunk the divinity of Christ and then expect the Sermon on the Mount to retain its power. It used to be the word of God, now it's just some guy's opinion.
Sorry, that's nonsense. A good "opinion" is a good opinion regardless of who delivered it. Thinking people can recognize a good idea as having applicability without having to imagine that it came from the mouth of some sort of god.
It's quite hypocritical that creationists oppose reason and science while at the same time enjoying its benefits. They should refrain from air travel, sanitation, heating and air conditioning, using the internet and receiving medical care.
We could set aside some land for them - they could go and live there in a mud hut, go to church six times a week and die of cholera. It would be like the Dark Ages all over again.
gavingourley,
I recommend that those who profess to believe that evolution is just some librul hoax put their position to the test by being exposed to a resistant form of TB. After all, if evolution is a hoax, then such microbial strains could never have "evolved".
My oh my what would the buddhists say?
You never see Buddhists caring about the origin of the species.
Why? Because it means nothing in the big picture.
Nothing.
The christians are right that "evolution" is just a theory--and it does get interpreted in the usual ways. Some humans take it as being like the Great chain of being, meaning that humans are "better than other lifeforms."
Others take it to mean survival of the fittest, and you get that whole social darwinism thing.
more recently people are saying it may mean survival of the luckiest.
But its all bullsh*t.
We could have been born out of a giant can of Green Giant peas and it wouldnt make a difference.
The sky isnt going to be any brighter, the grass inst going to grow any greener, and the most nettling fact is, we will NEVER know the truth of where life came from. No matter whether its deity or dna, we will always be guessing. Because humans cant know everything.
Philosophy of religion 300 teaches that theism and secularism and mysticism are all religious systems. The first believes there is a universe with a god behind it(and nothing beyond the god).
Secularists believe there is a universe with nothing beyond that, and mystics believe there is a universe, there may also be a god, but there would have to be something beyond that which is and will always remain a mystery.
if the three, the mystics are the most adult about it.
because secularists and theists fall into the trap of believing in a divine right, theists believe it comes from a deity, and secularists believe it comes from evolution.
Its one thing that christians can use against secularists--the idea that humans are better than other life.its understandable that christians believe that because they believe there is a big invisible human in the sky,--but for an atheist secularist, it shows a trace of theistic thinking, because it suggests a judgement call, and if the universe is mindless, how can it show favoritism? That's like saying humans are better than other life because the universe(a mindless object) says it is so. That's like saying "a is better than b because a chair says so."
Anyway
mysticism is for adults, theism and secularism is for the toddlers.
Don't care what the missing link is, but the nut who wants to sue biologists because of religeous discrimination is the weakest link by far...
Perhaps we should spend more time examining the one life form that is known to have been "created" (not natually evolved) and "created" by men, not by God.
That would be the corporations, and their several variations, public, privately held, Sub-S, not for profit, holding company, LLC etc. These things run from small to enormous, from short life spans to hundreds of years, and the study of what they eat and how they fight with each other is fascinating. Better even than imagining the dinosaurs of old, these behemoths are alive and roaming the earth today.
If children in science classes fully understood their origin and nature, they might grow up to better protect their society from these ravenous beasts. We may be arguing about the wrong class of "creatures" altogether and not even know that we are. We humans are amazing.
I wonder if the creationists have notices how their talking points have "evolved" over the years? Just an observation.
Where's the 'Missing Link'?
It's called failure for the brain stem to connect to the brain
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
Right on Daniel David!
Kelmer
I seriously doubt you can get far without knowing how you have been anywhere before.
So please refrain from the green beans theory.
I think what we call progress itself depends on accepting where we have been what we have been, and furthering.
So the tribals in Africa are what we definitely not moving towards.
And if we did not know our origins, we definintely would not know how to know what we do not know.
You can save yourself by becoming a Southern Baptist any day.
love
Zero
In the Book of Revelation, locusts with scorpion tails and human faces are to torment unbelievers for five months when the fifth trumpet sounds - Wikipedia
I am so looking forward to that (instantaneous evolution?).
A scorpion tail would be so useful, although sitting would be a problem.
"There's a missing link here."
For little me, it's a matter of the us/them dichotomy.
Social Darwinism allows the selfish thought of better/smarter-than-'them'.
Creationism implies that the way things are is the way it will always be.
Thus, the ones at the top are meant to be there. god said so.
The unbelievable fight against evolution (http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/Evolution/) is just one of the many battlefields in the battle between the reality-based world and the faith-based world. Conservatives operate in the latter, along with their evangelical helpers. Those of us who think the real world is important need to keep resisting Zebra Fish man with his scorpion tail wherever he rears his ugly head. But it is a wearying and soul destroying business - you'd think after 150 years the war would be won.
dwatkins9 said in the first comment: "[evolution's] use in defense of an ethic of selfishness seems almost inevitable. The theory of evolution teaches that life is a tale told by an idiot. What good can come of that?
"You can't debunk religious beliefs and then expect to retain the values derived from those beliefs. For example, you can't debunk the divinity of Christ and then expect the Sermon on the Mount to retain its power."
On the contrary i do exactly that. My being inspired by the sermon on the mount goes back to roughly the same time as my atheism: 35 years ago, when I read the Bible from start to end and then beyond—history of it, archeology, logic, myth etc. I know of no good evidence that Christ, as portrayed in the various books that got stuck together for political reasons and called The Bible, ever existed. And yet, with humility and non-attachment here I am, caring more for my fellow beings than many christians i've met, touched and moved by the depths of the bible as mythology that has given us smart people like Blake and Milton, Rachel Carson and Hildegard von Bingen.
and btw Kelmer, not all secularists believe ANY one thing, even that there is no god. Scientific evolution does not hold that there is any "progress" at all, simply says there is adaptation to conditions, which are constantly changing, and consists of constant (so far) tendencies to fill empty niches, become more complex, and diversify. That's a tree, forever branching, not a snake climbing a pole toward god—or perfection.
i see 2 problems:
1) is lack of imagination, and believing anything you haven't imagined doesn't exist. It is not only a dangerous combination but is really annoying as well. And i imagine it makes life hard for those who limit themselves that way. It's the same voice that says "intermediate forms don't exist and I can't see how an eye got to be an eye without god to do it, so god musta dunnit." But with imagination—and long, patient, honest observation—one sees that intermediate forms do exist, all over. (see video A Flock of Dodos)
2) conservatives (George Lakoff's strong father people) tend to believe that good is forced on us, (notice, that is not that GOD is forced on us, although that is an unfortunate outcome of the misunderstanding.) That is, we are essentially evil, and thus only discipline from on high—-god, the father, god the father, etc. ... can make us behave well. Psychology (science again, that pesky devil) tells us that that is not true; that children raised with a reasonable—-not perfect but good enough—mix of love, wisdom, freedom, attention, privacy and other qualities will, by evolutionarily-devised psychophysiological processes, become attached, first to mom and then to others, and will develop compassion (literally, "to suffer with") so they naturally will act in a way that reflects and preserves their connection to themselves, their bodies, their unconscious, their families, (including non-human families) their communities (including ecological communities) and their world, without the devastating despair, and either collapse or hardening that comes from the feeling that we are separate and alone. With apologies to Shakespeare, there is no idiot at all, only the tale, and we tell it together.
mr pickwick..the flat earth is what they call now a urban legend if you will check out the history..all the geologic processes you speak of came from "the flood" be cause there would be no fossils if they had'nt been covered up right away..and as far as astronomy goes the Bible tells you that first God started the earth turning on it axis and then he started it revolving around the sun..if there had been a big bang..all those particles would have just continued forever since there is no gravity and no friction to slow them down..and for the red shifts they harp on all the time if you are riding on something going 20 miles per second(earth)then when you look at something it is going to appear to be moving away..i hope you don't try to measure God's bushel with your peck...thanks...
kelmer: "mysticism is for adults, theism and secularism is for the toddlers."
Right you are.
I just read Dawkins' essay "The Devil's Chaplain" last night, which correctly explains that our origin from nature "red in tooth and claw" doesn't preclude creating a society diametrically opposing it. We should celebrate the capacity to repudiate the means of our creation. Conservatives perversely refute the means of our creation and celebrate the brutality of nature. As usual, they have it all ass backward.
Actually it's a little ironic reading this essay as I once had a spirited email exchange with Gonzalves on the topic of Dawkins (which ended on a civil note). He probably wouldn't remember, but he stated not being able to tolerate Dawkins writings.
I saw the Boston Globe account of the lawsuit a couple of days ago, and I'm convinced this dufus will lose in court. Here's why:
The battle between science and creationism has reached the prestigious Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, where a former researcher is claiming he was fired because he doesn't believe in evolution.
Nathaniel Abraham filed a lawsuit earlier this week in US District Court in Boston saying that the Cape Cod research center dismissed him in 2004 because of his Christian belief that the Bible presents a true account of human creation.
Abraham, who is seeking $500,000 in compensation for a violation of his civil rights, says in the suit that he lost his job as a postdoctoral researcher in a biology lab shortly after he told his superior that he did not accept evolution as scientific fact.
In a 2004 letter to Abraham, his boss, Woods Hole senior scientist Mark E. Hahn, wrote that Abraham said he did not want to work on "evolutionary aspects" of the National Institutes of Health grant for which he was hired, even though the project clearly required scientists to use the principles of evolution in their analyses and writing.
....the Abraham lawsuit pointedly raises the question: Can people work in a scientific field if they don't believe in its basic tenets?
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/12/07/biologist_fired_for_beliefs_suit_says/
How the hell can your "civil rights" be violated if you refuse to use the principles on which a project is based and then get fired because of that refusal?
Maybe it's time for scientific research facilities to more carefully screen their student applicants to weed out those who are unable to do the work because of their religious beliefs. Many rightwing colleges are producing such graduates, and it's time they learned they don't belong in the scientific community.
Just because we know about men/women who walk this earth, don't imagine God to be just a stronger smarter more creative man/woman.
I think God reveals who God is. If you're in love with someone, you don't give them Rohrschacht tests every few minutes along with taking their blood pressure, temperature, pulse, etc. You trust your beloved will reveal him/herself over time.
Also threats don't work...at least, not so far.
delete
Why is Zebra fish guy is playing with god's creation? Doesn't he believe that god has a purpose for everything?
Spencer believed in polygenesis (white is right, all other human lines are meant for extinction), and he also believed that women's brains were 1/5 the size of men's so therefore they were not as intelligent (misogynist). Two major strikes against him right there beside his other equally devious theories.
Thank you Sean Gonsalves.
Still waiting for us to become human... Fully human... Humane... Respect, everyone?
Until we are all safe...until there is justice and peace for all...there is no safety or justice or peace for any one.
Respect?
------------
Kelmer,
Just saw this: kelmer: "mysticism is for adults, theism and secularism is for the toddlers."
Mmm...yummy brain food. thank u
Reading all this god crap reminds me of the fact that we are our own worst enemy-- and an evolutionary fluke as well as per my favorite lines:
***********************
Conservationist's Lament
By Kenneth Boulding
In: Man's Role in Changing the Face of the Earth, 1956
University of Chicago Press, p. 1087
The world is finite, resources are scarce,
Things are bad and will be worse.
Coal is burned and gas exploded,
Forests cut and soils eroded.
Wells are dry and air's polluted,
Dust in blowing, trees uprooted,
Oil is going, ores depleted,
Drains receive what is excreted.
Land is sinking, seas are rising,
Man is far too enterprising,
Fire will rage with Man to fan it,
Soon we'll have a plundered planet.
People breed like fertile rabbits,
People have disgusting habits.
Moral: The evolutionary plan went astray by evolving Man.
The powerful in any society have time on their hands, money to spend, amplified voices, and an inherent interest in affirming their own place as a deserved outcome, not a fluke. While I am personally a non-biblical Jesus follower (don't believe the book is history or science, but believe God exists and Jesus was his messenger), I am confident that it doesn't matter whether science or religion provides the ruling ideas... the rulers will always find a way to justify their rule, and to keep it that way.
Much better for the powerless to stop fighting amongst ourselves and work together for things we agree on, for whatever reason of chemical accident or spirit-inspiration: justice, peace, equity, stewardship of the planet. We agree on these things so dangerously for the powers-that-be, and they know it, which is why we must be made to hate each other. Don't let them have their way.
Ken Hymes
the missing link is that these people are only "so called christians" who have been brainwashed by the constant evolution propaganda that is spewed out ..."the road is narrow.. and few be that find it" and "many are called but few are chosen"
and also i think alot of atheist "can't" believe in God rather then " don't "..what i mean is that unconsciously from time to time they try to imagine infinity and eternity and like everyone else in the world they can't grasp it..nobody can..and so they take this in ability and so they can't(don't) believe in God ..thats my rant..thanks
I love the idea of constant evolution propaganda being spewed out. I suppose it happens on the same media outlets that spew out round Earth propaganda, gravity theory propaganda, and propaganda about chemical reactions, geological processes, medical treatments, nuclear physics, astronomy, archeology. Just so much propaganda that good creationists just can't settle to reading the good book which contains all the information they could possibly need to know.
Wise christians oppose the theory of evolution for the same reason the opposed newtonian mechanics: the idea that the stars are not moved across the sky by angels, but carried around by conservation of momentum.
dwatkin wrote:
" For example, you can't debunk the divinity of Christ and then expect the Sermon on the Mount to retain its power."
I don't see why not! Christians have been reading the Sermon on the Mount for centuries, then going about the bloody business of war and business, on the grounds that, as Jesus was divine, the rest of us can't be expected to emulate him effectively.............. we will have to rely on our simple faith to get us into heaven...............
Muggle5___ I agree with you that this is all a pretty big waste of time and we have better things to worry about. Take a look at the Grand Canyon or many other works of nature that took millions of years to gradually evolve, and you will realize that evolution is the only answer. Then watch a baby calf or other favourite animal`s young get up and be nursing it`s mother in 15 minutes and you will realize God has created things that could not have evolved from some mud in a lagoon. Even though humans are so disappointing sometimes, they are works of art also in their own way. We need to stop this silly discussion that everything has to be either-or and believe it is more likely both theories working side by side.
adrienrain wrote:
I don't see why not! Christians have been reading the Sermon on the Mount for centuries, then going about the bloody business of war and business, on the grounds that, as Jesus was divine, the rest of us can't be expected to emulate him effectively………….. we will have to rely on our simple faith to get us into heaven…………
Not all Christian denominations teach the justification by faith alone doctrine.
In any event, no matter how badly Christians may have fallen short of the godly example of Christ, at least the example was there. Some of it got through. Now human beings seem to grow ever more Hobbesian.
Have the Darwin reference, btw:
In _Descent of Man_, chapter 4, section 16, Darwin refers to Spencer as "our great philosopher." These two men were not opposed, and their teachings are congruent - of course they are. One follows the other. Want to improve the species? Eugenics is the way to go.
The ancients knew about the possibility of eugenics, naturally. If you can breed dogs and horses, you can breed human beings - why not? But they did not, of course, have "scientific" justification. Modern enlightenment was required for that. The wasteland grows.
Muggle5 - how can they work side by side, when they appear to be antithetical?
kelmer: "Philosophy of religion 300 teaches that theism and secularism and mysticism are all religious systems."
George Carlin: "Calling atheism a belief system is like calling 'off' a television channel."
Two thousand years of science thrown away in a paragraph! I realise this is pointless, but what the heck. Yes, fossils do generally have to be covered up "right away" (although the right away would vary from a day to several years, that is partly why fossils vary in how well preserved they are). And if there had been "A flood" (whatever you think that means on a world wide scale) then some fossils would probably have resulted from that event. But if you believe that, then why on earth can't you understand that every geological layer has resulted from an event, or, more usually, a series of events, ranging from very localised events (such as the La Brea tar pits, or small lake deposits) to more extensive ones (for example over a flood plain of a river, or in a delta). And that the layers are found one on top of another, many hundreds, probably thousands (depending on the detail you are working with) of layers. And that, even forgetting that we can use the same technology that makes nuclear power stations to date those layers, we can certainly date the upper layers by the physical contents, trace them back through the kind of time period you are familiar with to the earliest civilisations of Europe and the Middle East, back through still earlier human links to the iron and bronze and stone ages. And then even deeper to layers that don't have human remains, and earlier and earlier. And the contents of all those layers are consistent - there is never a fossil out of place, never a human bone (or tool) found with dinosaurs, or early amphibians, or early fish or early invertebrates. Nevr any consistency from the lowest layers up to the ones that we can date in relation to human activity. And never any inconsistency in the tree rings, or pollen evidence, or soil formation, or in the dozens of different independent radioactive or chemical dating methods. The ignorance of all this contained in "forwhatitsworth's" paragraph is stunning and frightening and depressing.
mr pickwick..dont be afraid..Jesus loves you..i can see tho that you are a unwitting product of the brainwashing you have experienced..dont you get it ..evolution is used by the devil to undermine the Gospel..did you know for instance that for 1500 years the Bible could not be translated to the common man... only the elite knew latin..because they elite knew the gospel was true and would liberate the common folk..so they suppressed it..now days it is not suppressed but it is undermined by the devil..he uses the constant harange of evolution...God bless you mr p...thanks
Love the idea of am evangelical thinking that the rest of the non-evangelical (including, gasp, atheists) world is brainwashed! This is like a debate with a medieval peasant, aware only of what the priest told him. And the modern version of that priest is keeping a large proportion of the American population as ignorant as their medieval counterparts. How can education fail this badly?
Thoughts on theories and opinions
Theory of Relativity, Quantum Physics, Intelligent Design, Evolution; All these are tied together. For as a final determination is made in the debate on which of these is linked to another of these theory's or opposed, what ever the case may be, science will have to lie down with spirituality.
Relativity; A macrocosm of things physical , you could compare this to the body physical in that both are constrained within time and space. There are, of course, other theories that deal with the macrocosm, like the string theory and black holes and others I don't remember. String theory is an attempt to put wave physics into Relativity but to me, it is the first step in the engagement leading to the marriage of Relativity and Quantum. This is where the heart is, in relativity, as part of the body physical.
Quantum Physics; Particles and waves, The neatness of Relativity does not exist here. A witness will determine what action will take place. This is the Uncertainty Principal and the only thing that is known is that the potential for uses is unlimited. And yes it has been proven by experiment. All they have to do is figure out how it works. Sticking with a parallel to the human body; This is where the ego and free will are. One foot in the spirit and one in the physical. For a one word description, this is the mind. The final entry in the Theory of all is some form of electrical energy; Magnetism, gravity. I just don't know. Is the Creator electricity? No, but electricity is a manifestation of the Creator. This is not the soul, but where it comes through.
Intelligent Design; A human explanation for something that the mind cannot and will not be able to categorize and put in a place or situation where they can say; This is the way creations came about. There is one thing that I believe and that is that God, Creator, and what ever name you might want to use. Is way much more than any mind can imagine. Had a dream once that I was part of this big body but I could not figure out what part. Was I blood or a more specific part doing my duty to keep the whole functioning? Religions, sects, isms all try to put the
Creator into a box and claim exclusive knowledge and access to the Creator. God is not a respecter of persons, and where was everybody at when the heavens were created? That says it all; Nobody, nada, nothing is number #1 on the Creators list. Christ was up there but even he knew that he had to toe the line and not just do it but to want to do it with all his being. Is this a key? This is where the soul is.
Evolution; As true as intelligent design and why not? For it was set up by the creator. Everything, I mean everything in creation is evolving. Lets just take humans. How long have we been evolving? From the moment of creation to today is how long and how long in years? Does it really make a difference? From my perspective religion and science still do not have a clue as to what the Creator did. One thing, evolution, for me, proves reincarnation is fact because if souls do not try again and again to get it right then the whole Creator, creation thing is one big joke on us all.
You can see where my beliefs lie and you can see, for me, that the Creator is
Tony 12/3/06
Forwhatitsworth either you're willfully ignorant or you're having fun playing devil's advocate. I suspect the latter. If you really believe that evidence of evolution was planted by the devil, or god, to creat doubt in the minds of the faithful... The idea that god screws around with us that much comes from the book of Job, if god really acts like that then he/she isn't worth worshipping.
The god of the old testament is a sadistic god. The Jesus cult of the new testament is a recreation of the Dionysus cult, and/or some ancient Egyptian mystery cults. If you want brainwashing you'll have to talk to the priests who peddle those gods as a 'loving' 'gentle lamb' who wants your money, and will torture you forever if you don't give cash to the priest.
The flu evolves every year. QED
God doesn't come up with a different creation of flu each year, if he/she did why do the faithful catch it? Perhaps because they don't give enough cash to his priests.
Why can't one believe in God without religion?
Why on Earth would you want to believe in either?
It stands to reason that (a) each generation inherits from its parents, (b) those who are most healthy/fertile/adapted/etc. have more offspring and (c) thus pass on their traits with greater frequency.
It's just that simple. Which part do the creationists disagree with? DNA itself? Since when did their god demand the rejection of empirical evidence?
Paul, good try, but they would say that such a mechanism explains change within a species. They have never understood that the second part of Darwin's original insight was allopatric (geographic) speciation which causes one or multiple species to deveop where there was one before.
They (modern creationists, ie IDers) would call it "microevolution," the latest skirt they're hiding behind. I advise everyone to read "The Naked Emperor" by Anthony Latham, a creationist who gives a surprisingly succint and excellent overview of evolution and paleontoglogical evidence. Never mind that he discounts the evolitionary sequence to modern horse as microevolution and claims the analogous sequence to modern human is a hoax.
In the 80's creationists made a full frontal retreat to lick their wounds. They realized that "young earth" was never going to fly, with the exception of forwhatitsworth -- (very little, if he's "for real"). They have returned en-masse with a different strategy, not to present positive evidence, but rather to combat scientific certainty with the negative notion of incomplete data. They now claim that biological structures are too complex to have evolved and give hand waving statistical arguments. Unfortunately for them, their position is even more precarious than if they had just stuck to their guns because now each year will drive them further into obscurity.
Sorry to be so basic about this but:
In my humble opinion the people who push Creationism, in this enlightened day and age, are nothing short of religious fundamentalists, and are polluting the minds of all who they teach. Their core beliefs, are based on taking the teachings of the Old Testament of the bible literally. As one who attended a Catholic school in my youth, we were always told that the Old Testament was used to illustrate to early people a story, and that they would decry it as heresy, if it bore any relation to Darwin' theory.
Science does not have all the answers, but it does have a very rough idea of how old the earth is, and quite unsurprisingly, that figure is slightly older than 4500 years.
Fortunately, in the UK, Creationism has not yet taken a hold, I for one hope that it stays that way.
"Society advances where its fittest members are allowed to assert their fitness with the least hindrance." You can see why that has been absorbed into our cultural subconscious: it is entirely compatible with capitalism - which has also assimilated the concepts of freedom and democracy into its dark manoeuverings. It surfaces in the most disconcerting places, like our National Health Service (UK). Here, people most in need of help - the old, the obese, smokers and so on - are denied help simply because of their need. What a reversal of the principles of socialism. The rejection of this is also obvious in such a culture. Its ideal envisages those who can helping those who cannot - society's fittest members acknowledging common humanity with its least fit members and using their abilities to help them. As if. Selfishness is all in a capitalist society, and selfishness is an extremely attractive temptation which few can resist.
Believing in "microevolution" but not "macroevolution" is like believing in inches but not in miles. Read about ring species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species). Evolution is a "fact," not a "theory."
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GavinGourly you wrote: We could set aside some land for them - they could go and live there in a mud hut, go to church six times a week and die of cholera. It would be like the Dark Ages all over again.
You just described the US in about 30 years. Don't forget the STDs, they're going to bite more than a few of the "Righteous" in the ass.
All the best....
Peace.
Current "Christian Beliefs"
Jesus was white
Pre emptively invading a country that was no threat to us is ok
4000 dead US soldiers is ok in achieving "victory" in Iraq, whatever victory is this week.
500,000-1,000,000 dead Iraqis is ok because we say so. "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply to us.
But it applies to people who have abortions.
It's better to let Weapons makers abscond with pallettes of cash than to fund programs for the poor. (If you vote republican you support this powerfully).
The young Iraqi girl refugees now forced into prostitution (forced rape) are god's will and the spreading of democracy by our wonderful leader George Bush
It's more important to stop boys from kissing and marrying than to stop Halliburton from raping the treasury, to stop Cheney from shredding our constitution, or to stop U.S. soldiers from dying in Iraq.
Fight for the baby's life until it is born. Once it is born, it's on it's own.
Speak constantly and self righteously of a love for Jesus Christ without following ANY of his teachings.
forwhatitsworth you wrote: Bible tells you that first God started the earth turning on it axis and then he started it revolving around the sun..if there had been a big bang..all those particles would have just continued forever since there is no gravity and no friction to slow them down..
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-hE-HE-hE-HE-hE-HE-hE-HE-hO-hO-hO-HO-H0-
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-hO-hO-hO-HO-H0-hE-HE-hE-HE-hE-HE-hE-HE
I JUST SNORFED MY COFFEE...thank you forwhatitsworth
Should "he" be "HEEEE!"?
Oh yeah, I was laughing so hard I forgot,
forwhatitsworth, You don't even know your own flat-earth genocidal religion. They poured and you drank the Kool-Aid.
Your flat-earth, genocidal Blood God Jahweh, according to the accounts written by a tribe of flat-earth, genocidal pastoralist killer nomads - created a FIXED universe, finished final, over, and done. The Earth did not move in that universe. It did NOT spin at 1700mph, it did not move at 24000mph in its orbit around the Sun.
No.No.NO. The Sun rose in the East because in your flat-earth model this planet was the Center of the entire Universe as you were the "pinnacle" of Creation. Not merely a part of one Solar System in a local neighborhood of 400 billion stars and surrounded by 40 billion galaxies, everything moving, everything evolving - NOOOO. Granular, fixed, Absolute Reality - then you spend your life killing everythiong that moves.
You are a mushroom forwhatitsworth. So am I. We are the fruit of Life (the creature is a subsurface integrated organism that may extend over several acres and produces mushrooms as fruit). Life buds, Life blossoms, Life makes more, Life dies. So do mosquitos. Get over it. You may eventually come to celebrate it.
Your kindred spirits tortured, mangled, mutilated, and burned alive any human being who said the Earth moved and your fellows would do so again today if they had the power. That is the only legacy of the most genocidal religion ever known in the history of our species.
Pray for forgiveness.
Peace.
There has been some rather insightful discussion here about Evolution and Creationism.
Yes, social darwinism (ala Spencerian elitism) works very well for capitalism. Selfishness is the key, as is Manifest Destiny, rugged individualism, and anything that places the onus on the individual. The notion that for capitalists is that if you work hard you will have money...equates very well with the Calvinistic mindset that if you are rich you are favored by God.
Now, let's throw into the mix evangelicals, muslim fanatics and zionists.
Because these folks cannot see or have been prevented from accepting anthropological evidence to the contrary the long period of time that humans have been evolving (yes yes blink of an eye geologically, but stay with me) they cannot will not see that altrusim and compassion was foundational to our survival as a species for millenia.
Heirarchies, priestly castes-their establishment which created that familiar pyramid amway scam of universal proportions skewed us down this path. King God, whether phaoroh, or sky wizard, or even CEO has enslaved us...and removed the inherent notion of community survival and environmental respect.
Socially speaking maybe we are reaching a point of punctuated equilibrium (rip lovely Mr Gould).
Many Native philosophies believe that we exist on 3 levels- animal (basic), human (abstract thought), and spirit (that which is non-quantifiable)...and so I believe in the notion of spirit. In my own view, there is no exclusivity.
However, if I look at the social evolution aspects of humanity I see a disturbing attempt to regress backwards toward the same pyramid scam that the three middle eastern Abrahamic models are based on. These three work very very well with the multinational corporations NWO. It is the exact same set up.
God as punisher and enslaver of his children that do not believe. The corporations do the same things....they have merged. They have created themselves into both the Savior and the Devil...the 'devil' aspect will destroy lifeways and force us into hellish slavery....but the free market will liberate us. The NWO will be our global salvation. This is all done with the eager blessings of the same heirarchical religions. It has been the biggest social programming effort now come to fruition.
If, as a country we can no longer condone such concepts as child abuse and enslavement......why do we continue to tolerate religions that promote these two very horrendous concepts? Many of us here see what these big business conglomerates are doing but we continue to compartmentalize. Corporate and God induced environmental destruction added in as stated in most of the End Times writings.
We have to stop thinking that we as individuals can keep our beliefs from our politics /economics etc. Does this mean I advocate for no seperation of church and state-NO. But the false notion that we can has been very useful for those who wish global domination.
I am not negating any spiritual guru's messages-but it seems to me they have been co-opted and twisted.
I know this sounds strange, and excuse my rambling, I am coming down with a head cold. I feel lousy. However, I also feel compelled by all of the info I have accumulated to create some sense of the Big Pattern/Picture. There is a story of epic proportions in our history as a species.
Again, history repeats, and we are caught in a vast negative feedback loop-where is the trigger to shift us away from it?
This story is so large...perhaps we can even refer to it...as The Book of Life. And maybe it is time to rewrite the ending TPTB have been engineering for us for their own power and enrichment at the xpense of everything we hold dear.
Time to evolve- eve-love
G