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TechnoratiPelosi and Torture
That House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has been a disappointing leader for House Democrats, few serious observers of the congressional condition will deny. But, now, she appears to be something more troubling: a serious hindrance to the fight against the use of crudest and most objectionable torture techniques.
Democrats and Republicans with a conscience have gotten a good deal of traction in recent months in their battle to identify the use by U.S. interrogators of waterboarding - a technique that simulates drowning in order to cause extreme mental distress to prisoners -- as what it is: torture. Arizona Senator John McCain, a GOP presidential contender, has been particularly powerful in his denunciations of this barbarous endeavor. And Senate Intelligence Committee chair Jay Rockefeller, D-West Virginia, and key members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have effectively pressed the issue on a number of fronts.
Now, however, comes the news that Pelosi knew as early as 2002 that the U.S. was using waterboarding and other torture techniques and, far from objecting, appears to have cheered the tactics on.
The Washington Post reports that Pelosi, who was then a senior member of the House Intelligence Committee, was were informed by CIA officials at a secret briefing in September 2002, that waterboarding and other forms of torture were being used on suspected al-Queda operatives. That's bad. Even worse is the revelation that Pelosi was apparently supportive of the initiative.
According to the news reports, Pelosi has no complaint about waterboarding during a closed-door session she attended with Florida Congressman Porter Goss, a Republican who would go on to head the Central Intelligence Agency, Kansas Republican Senator Pat Roberts and Florida Democratic Senator Bob Graham.
"The reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement," recalls Goss.
How encouraging? It is reported that two of the legislators demanded to know if waterboarding and other methods that were being employed "were tough enough" forms of torture to produced the desired levels of mental anguish to force information from suspects who, under the Geneva Conventions and the U.S. Constitution, cannot be subjected to cruel or unusual punishment.
Was Pelosi one of the "tough-enough" cheerleaders for waterboarding? That is not clear, as the speaker has refused to comment directly regarding her knowledge of torture techniques and encouragement of their use. Another member of the House who is closely allied wit Pelosi did tell the Post, however, that the California Democrat attended the session, recalled that waterboarding was discussed, and "did not object" at the time to that particular torture technique.
If this is the case, Pelosi has provided aid and comfort to the Bush administration's efforts to deviate not just from the standards set by international agreements regarding war crimes but from the provision of the Bill of Rights that establishes basic requirements with regard to the treatment of prisoners who in the custody of the United States.
Those deviations are precisely the sort of impeachable offenses that Pelosi has said are "off the table." Her association with the administration on the matter of torture necessarily calls into question the speaker's credibility on questions of how and when to hold the administration to account. It also begs a more mundane political question: At a point when Republicans like John McCain are earning points with their forthright stances against waterboarding, isn't the credibility and the potential effectiveness of the House Democratic Caucus as an honest player in the debate profoundly harmed by the involvement of its leader in behind-the-scenes meetings that by all accounts encouraged the use of that technique?
John Nichols is a co-founder of Free Press and the co-author with Robert W. McChesney of TRAGEDY & FARCE: How the American Media Sell Wars, Spin Elections, and Destroy Democracy — The New Press.
© 2007 The Nation
92 Comments so far
Show AllThis woman's show us the leadership from a woman. How in hell should we vote a woman on as President?
Sad isn't it?
Once more it is made clear that the Democraps are a bunch of spineless, gutless, lily-livered collaborationists. Pelosi should be impeached for not impeaching Cheney & Bush. These Democraps seem to have forgotten their oath of office entails defending the Constitution, not collaborating with war criminal despots. Pelosi is a pathetic toady.
"Since when is that enough to start fryin' Madame Speaker..."
Well, since we found out. That's when.
And you mean "My damn Speaker" don't you?
Nancy Pelosi deserved to be removed from office well before this most recent discovery of having her head planted firmly up Bush's ass. This is just one more example.
IMPEACH PELOSI FIRST. We need a goddamn OPPOSITION PARTY in this country.
Heavyrunner,
Your defense of DK reveals precisely why he ultimately will capitulate once again and represents the quadrennial burnt offering to progressivism offered up by the Dems.
That he gave in without fighting, accepted his party´s insistence on "toning down" for media unity and refuses to criticize his party´s hacks are symbolic not of courage but naive and sycophantic loyalty to a Democratic (sic) Party that no longer exists. He will fold again.
Every single time you vote for a Dem or a Rep you keep at bay any potential for substantive change. Why? Because neither the Reps or Dems want a more open democratic system. Why? Because they know they will lose. So advocating, for ex., proportional representation would insure smaller parties´growth at the expense of, say, conservative Dems. Or from the Rep. side, a loss of "libertarian" (sic) Reps. See?
The only way to break open the system is to get into office a varity of parties who would then compete for the attention of the elctorate regularly and debate issues of real importance instead of watered down party platforms and slippery politicians who can´t say the truth. It´s a dead end street voting for either Dems or Reps. Start with Pelosi and watch the ripple effect. But to continue touting DK is to be ignorant of the way the system works--the very system which teh Dems--including DK --represent.
I too have been very disappointed in Pelosi since she became the speaker of the house. Nevertheless, if she is removed now K Street Steny Hoyer and Rahm Emmanuel will gain even more power in the house. They are even worse than Pelosi and have led talented new reps to drink the "we don't have time for impeachment" kool-aid. That gang is poison. I hold no brief for Jane Harman, but she reportedly did send a letter of objection when she was briefed on the use of waterboarding. Hillary Clinton was not briefed on torture techniques because she is not on the intelligence committee. Jay Rockefeller has been Mr. Go Along/Get Along since he has been the chairman/ranking member on the intelligence committee. Part 2 of the intelligence report detailing the intelligence problems leading up to the Iraq invasion has not yet been released.
Obama is more conservative than Clinton if you listen carefully to some of his positions. For example, Clinton refuses to include nuclear power as part of her energy plan until the problem with waste disposal is solved. Obama includes nuclear without this stipulation. His health plan is not universal and he fibbed about it until he was called on it by experts and the other candidates. Kucinich has the only sane plan that is truly non-profit and universal. His universal single-payer plan breaks the stranglehold of the insurance companies on the health care system. I don't care how many times the media/powers that be declare that Kucinich is unelectable, he has my vote. I don't agree with him on every issue, but his courage in speaking up for what is right deserves to be rewarded. Go Dennis!!!
Here's some of the latest from Harper's:
What Difference Would It Make?
Here's the 1st paragraph: "The Department of Justice and the CIA are undertaking a "preliminary investigation" to determine whether a more formal probe of the destruction of the two tapes is appropriate. The effort on the Justice side is entrusted to Kenneth L. Wainstein, the assistant attorney general responsible for counterterrorism efforts, who is coordinating with the CIA's Inspector General, John L. Helgerson, on the probe."
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
Dennis Kucinich was forced into making the speech he gave at the '04 convention by the Democratic Party. I was there as a Kucinich supporter and present in the room when the delegates and candidate debated regarding the deal offered Congressman Kucinich. He was told to tone down his speech or he would not be allowed on the podium when the TV cameras were on.
But I thought he did speak out against the war. I heard him speak so many times that week, I have a hard time sorting out what he said in each speech, but I would not fault Dennis for how that speech went. He was threatened with no speaking time at all for refusing to release his delegates because the leadership wanted a unanimous first ballot, and there were several emotional debates among the delegates and Congressman Kucinich regarding how to respond the demands that Kerry be given a unanimous first ballot.
The compromise was that Dennis would release his delegates, but that they would be free to vote their conscience on the first ballot. Most, if not all of the 64 then chose to vote for Dennis. The result was Dennis got some time on air, but it was still only 4:00 p.m. in California when he got his ten minutes or whatever it was.
It is not Dennis's style to criticize individual fellow Democrats. He almost exclusively focuses on policy issues.
Incidentally, don't let the corporate media tell you in advance who to vote for. Think for yourself and vote based upon the issues and the positions of the candidates on those issues.
Why are we so hung up on "Parties" here.
Parties don't set agendas... Their purpose is to raise money for one half of the system or if they are a third party to have an outlet for all those who don't like the two party winner take all system but they can vote for a 3rd party but the 3rd party can't win because ....MONEY IS THE TWO PARTY SYSTEM!
Many folks here talk like revolutionaries, but never talk about infiltrating the two big parties...You have a vote that can influence the Big System but you refuse... it is beneath your dignity to get involved in the dirty business of big time politics.... OK You can explain that to the young people who will ask you before you die..."What did you do about all this?" "Oh I washed my hands and voted Green.. the fascists have it rigged anyway"... Well goody for you.
If you want to have a new third party that crosses the phony two party game, we must start by showing that the Peace People have some clout willing to vote for the most progressive of the big parties IN THE PRIMARIES!
This is the weakness in the system where every 3rd party (all of them voting against each other because like a religion they all are the only way to progress)... so they become the depository of lost votes because their influence which could help the progressive reformer wings in the Big Money game parties is lost.
We can continue to complain without voting effectively or we can vote with more influence by accepting the reality of our System in order to have any influence at all.
Oh but You want the revolution Now! ...You want it all now You want your Mapo now.
like magic some savior is gonna give you the true Socialism... Can't help you there cause I know lots of intelligent people even Psychologists and teachers who spend most of their time complaining that the Country is fucked up because nobody Understands what true Socialism is.....
We all differ on who to vote for and yet we want to start a new third party?
Fine idea but why wouldn't this new third party not become just another third party that thinks it has the answer so that if the majority does not vote them, we are back on Square One because this is the TWO Freakin Party System and all your not voting or voting for a third party is not gonna change the balance of influence.... That is right Folks ... We want Power because we have Zero Political power and influence because we are too proud to infiltrate the system we want to change and we think that voting a third party will change.... change what?
Before we can have enough power to govern, we must show that we understand how to get the most out of the system we got and that is if you are gonna vote at all, freakin vote in the two party Primaries and go back to your 3rd party Headquarters and brag that you have some influence and you can still vote for any one after that... but your Philosophy has had some influence because you have shown to have the brains, guts and courage of a true modern revolutionary peacemaker.
We begin to unite and grow in strength by making value choices in the system that we have.
We can deny the system, but if you register in the big system, you have two important votes to cast ... One that helps shape the opinion of the big parties and then you are in a better position to vote your best shot like a more powerful citizen with a stronger voice for Peace and a better World.
Love Ya Anyway,
Jim
I bet that's the key.
If the dems impeach, the reps will take a lot of the dems down with them.
"You air our dirty laundry, and we'll air yours."
DaveE December 10th, 2007 12:56 pm
"IMPEACH PELOSI!"
it seems we've been saying this ever since she became a traitor i.e. refusing to initiate impeachment proceedings against a criminal regime. nobody every talks about HER impeachment. what's wrong with the idea?
I just looked at Ron Paul's website. Beyond the anti-war stance, he reads like almost any Republican: anti-choice, pro unregulated capitalism, contempt for the public sector in general.
Yes, Kucinich missed an opportunity in 2004 to reject Kerry's imperialist-lite ways, but let's hope for better this time. He's the only candidate that has made a move on impeachment. Let's campaign and vote for him in the primaries, and if/when we are disappointed with the nominee, then it's time to support a progressive independent or Green. Maybe Dennis will be bold enough to become that person.
Lorax,
I usually don´t get too much into the one-on-ones here but I thought I should in this case.
To say that you are a realist is fine, but a realist also understands that "realists" told the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., "not yet" and he then penned one of the most important documents of the Civil Rights era in response (Letter from a Birmingham jail--get it and read it)He was not, in that sense, a "realist."
Voting for Sheehan is a step, a small, and perhaps mainly symbolic one, but for those of you remaining in the US (I live in Europe) take it from one who reads EVERYTHING--the cracks are showing. The system IS corrupt and FOX will do everything to destroy her credibility if elected (think Cynthia McKinney) but Pelosi and the establishment are scared. Throw a few out and they start listening. Throw a bunch out and you´re winning.
Now, as for voting. To a degree you are right and you bank on that part to abstain and in many cases that may be the correct tactic. But it´s a shitty strategy over all. Since your "enenmy" almost always is amped up enough to vote. So you vote. But you don´t have to vote for a Dem or Rep (I haven´t since 1992, and that was the VERY last time I will ever pinch my nose and believe the skies-are-falling criers) I figured out quick what a joke that was.
Look, not voting also guarantees representation to
1. those who do, and,
2. those who count those who do.
But voting is only one tactic. The US came close to a "general strike" very recently--the huge immigration marches--and it made a huge impression. That´s another. When people mobilize, the powers-that-be tremble. So you don´t have to waste your time agonizing (I stopped that long ago in my 30´s.) You just pick a good fight, do your best, and connect with REAL people, in REAL time, in REAL "reality", not "virtual reality" and watch how you both change. As you change solidarity builds through trust and a common sense of what is right. These things take time and cultivation. But agonizing over a computer will help no one.
During the LA riots I was walking with an old communist friend (he was in his 70´s then, I in my late 30´s) and he pointed to the rows of cops and said, "They are not my enemy--they are the functionaries of my enemy" and that little phrase changed me forever. The more we join together the more we take away potential functionaries of our enemies and make friends who will stand with us. And I´ll give you the biggest ally we can get right now, a secret that changed the anti-war movement forever--returning veterans and their families. Go make friends with them, talk to them, join with them, agonize with them and watch as you slowly win them over.
Someone I know is already dead from that obscene war. A nephew is on his way now. Making friends of those who will face or have faced war is a great tactic and a great long term strategy. There are many, many others. But that´s one way to be on the right side and take away the empire´s cannon fodder.
This is why Cindy is important. Her loss makes this war personal. That´s why they attack her clothes, her style, her "unprofessionalism". If war becomes personal, people stop supporting it. Put her in Congress, in Pelosi´s place and yes, the attacks will be mighty. But the victory, even if its short, will be sweet and inspirational.
nodoze-
I admire Ms. Sheehan greatly too but the system is broken. If by some miracle Ms. Sheehan is elected (I say miracle because it's a rigged game) her voice will be squashed by FOX and the rest of the media. These jerks will twist every word she says and wait like vultures to blow out of proportion every slip of her tongue.
The sad fact of the matter is that your vote does not count, doesn't matter, and won't make a difference. It's the 'can't get there from here' thing. Every day I try to think of how to fix it and every day I come up with nothing. (If you think violence is the answer then you must ask yourself what seperates you from the people you are fighting)
Do you honestly believe that bush was elected fairly both times? Do you think that the 2008 election will be a fair-and-square accurate reflection of the American people's desires? I hope it is but I'm a realist. The medicine I'm getting spoonfed is very bitter and goes down hard. I feel like a pawn sitting on a chessboard when the game is already over. The difference between the candidates is the difference between Coke and Pepsi. It just doesn't matter.
If it's any consolation though, Cindy has my 'vote'.
"Pelosi represents what has happened to the Democratic party. Pelosi, Schumer, Feinstein, Rahm Emmanuel, Hillary Clinton, the DLC, ad nauseam"
We now understand that the entire US government has failed. Failed for reasons that are the consequence privatized responsibility
Ok...Let me get this right.
Pelosi=bad.
Torture=bad.
The Dems=bad.
Kucinich=good.
Kucinich=Dem.
Huh?
People, the Dems are a political party made up of people who sell their votes to the highest bidders. Four years ago Kucinich folded like a sheet of tracing paper at the Dem convention, uttering not a peep about that warmonger Kerry and the Dems tactics against any dissent. Kucinich will again shut up and fold himself back into the arms of the Dem establishment.
You can´t get the system you want by voting for people who don´t want that system.
(Or the ineffective "champions" of your cause du jour within that Party)
If everyone on this list in Califiornia gave $25-50$ to Cindy Sheehan, she might get a leg up on her challenge to Pelosi.
If everyone on this list joined a union or a church and became active there, live, in person about tossing out Pelosi, you would have more reach than "preaching to the converted" here.
If everyone on this list volunteered to go door to door for Sheehan in the Bay Area, she just might win.
Grand ideas are fine, but there is a good chance of beating one execrebale Dem (Pelosi) and replacing her with an inspiring hero, (Sheehan). It´s not a revolution, but it´s a start. Don´t vote for any Dem ever again. Organize in the places you work, in the places you worship, in the places you gather--face to face. Then think of "winning" as a long term struggle which requires tactics and strategies. Win one, then go for another.
But stop the blathering, the infighting, the grandiose macho strutting. You have such a wonderful chance to shake up the system tehre with the Pelosi-Sheehan race. Don´t blow it!
Ask yourself a simple question: is torture moreso an absolutely repugnant thing, or is it a political opportunity for the party of your choice?
My answer negates the possibility of cutting the Speaker of the House any slack.
I do not know if you were speaking of the Reps in their entirety or a certain arae, too tired to go back. You left out the infamous Jane Harman[CA-36], the ever lovely 'Contact Jane', an Sponsor of , sighhhh, H R 1955, now H R RFS, in Committees.
Cindy speak up for We the People, the Citizens, the people that are to be REPRESENTATED honestly, by our voices. I love you Cindy! You are there, babe...
Dennis you heard Rune /\, up there, do not lose that spine now Dennis Kucinich, Pelosi, Mdm Speaker, my tush...........
Isn't it about time for Dennis Kucinich to deliver an ultimatum to the Democrats: either Pelosi goes or he leaves the party and runs as an independent candidate for president?
I would like to see that. If he does it, he's got my vote. If not, I can't take his rhetoric about upholding the Constitution seriously when the prime roadblock to his bill to impeach Cheney is the leader of his own party in the chamber in which he serves--and that person has now been confirmed to be in league with Bush in the approval of terrible crimes against humanity.
So, what is it, Dennis? Are you for real or just another Democrat safely posturing for effect with no real conviction to risk a safe career in Congress in order to do what it takes to reverse the descent of the nation before it hits rock bottom? Please answer the call. Please take a stand that counts.
Just wait. Waterboarding will be taught in POST(Police Officers Service Training) courses training beginning Spring 2008.
http://www.cindyforcongress.org/article.php?preview=1&cache=0&id=38
rebelnow:
"celebrity, and others, what do you think of this article about Ron Paul in counterpunch today? www.counterpunch.com/volatile12102007.html"
Thanks for the link.
Somebody mentioned Obama, who is another triangulator, and focuses on pleasing the audience. Unlike Paul, he has proved to have bad judgement on Iran, and thus is not to be trusted in world affairs.
For a good read on what torture does to the torturer and the tortured, read Black Skin White Masks by Frantz Fanon. Also read The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein.
A post about 2/3 of the way down has moved me to state yet again what a few others pointed out early in this thread: Why do otherwise articulate posters/article authors with excellent, intelligent insights insist on using the term 'simulates drowning'??? The only reason people survive this particular form of torture is if it is stopped in time.
I do think you all are very selfassured: Pelosi has to sign up tosecrecy in learning what they are doing at the CIA and she cannot bring any advisor with her and she cannot take notes so to object to this- she must write a letter and I know that Rockefeller did write an objection and I feel that Pelosi is not a cardf carrying villan. She is a person with integrity and I do not agree with you who want to just plain crucify her. I do think that she should come forth and apologize that she did not actively object to waterboarding- lets face it we all have learned a lot over the past years. We cannot correct the past but I think we should apologize to all who have died in iraq as well as needlessly in Afghanistan which we deserted to march into iraq.
Ron Paul wants to do away with the UN and Medicare and social security.
Why do any of you want to support this regressive plan , although I like Paul's dislike of warfare- he was a pilot in Vietnam and he knows the horror of war.
I support Dennis Kucinich but since he cannot get the votes- I am supporting Senator Obama who also denounced the war early one. GO Obama.
VOTE TO REMOVE THE INCUMBENTS. Run for office yourself: how hard can it be? ORGANIZE TO REMOVE THE INCUMBENTS. Lack of experience is better than lack of a backbone, lack of respect for law and The Constitution. WORK TO REMOVE THE INCUMBENTS. How many times do they have to insult us before we get the scam? These are not public servants but petty-bourgeois tyrants and parasites. GET RID OF THE INCUMBENTS and maybe we can turn a page that way....THE PRESENT CONGRESS MUST GO, TOP TO BOTTOM AND BACK AGAIN>....
SEQUOIABISON - The citizens who put a Democratic majority in the House and the Senate by their votes are the ones responsible for the changes that have taken place since the 2006 election, not Pelosi or the DNC or the DCCC. After these revelations, Pelosi should at least have the decency to step down from the leadership of the House. We need lots of new blood in both sides of congress. Hopefully we get it with with the next round. Exerunt Feinstein, Harman, Pelosi, etc., etc.
Let's stop focusing on waterboarding which, although undeniably torture, is not the worst of it. There have been, according to US military pathologists, dozens of deaths under torture by US officials. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al. are clearly implicated in authorizing such acts and failing to curb excesses. The US has also perpetrated forced disappearances egregious crimes under domestic and international law. Unfortunately not legally culpable, but clearly morally so, are the congressional Democrats like Pelosi and Clinton who have stood by and let this happen in our name, funded it, and refused to take the actions the Constitution mandates by holding hearings, impeaching and removing the criminal gang responsible. Ross Perot's once-riduculed assertion that "there is not a dime's worth of difference between the Republican and Democratic parties" has proven prescient in ways we never imagined.
LISTEN to Eris in post # 4, the cleanup spot. That message is at least as important as anything in the original article.
Waterboarding "simulates" drowning-- absolutely not, it IS drowning. It is
drowning interruptus if the person survives and drowning if they don't-- drowning in both cases.
Why Nancy Pelosi or anybody would want to join the banal ranks of pro-torture and look the other way is beyond me. Dump
buckets of fresh fish offal on her head.
I say "fresh" because if had decomposed the act might be considered torture and we don't want that. We (I at least) want to create a new low class, the torture class, then prosecute them, denigrate them, and make their life as miserable as possible short of torture.
Why? Because they are of too low intelligence to listen to reason. They must therefore be conditioned-- an reenactment of their original toilet training.
The example Eris gives is also revelatory of American journalism today. Even when its head is in the right place it finds some obscure way to pull its punch.
THE BEHAVIOR OF THOSE WHO KNEW AND BY THEIR SILENCE CONDONED THIS HEINOUS BEHAVIOR MUST BE REMOVED FROM THE OFFICE THEY HOLD AND U.S. CONGRESS.
WHAT ARE SAN FRANCISCO VOTERS GOING TO DO ABOUT MS PELOSI? I HOPE THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GO ALONG WITH THIS AND VOTE HER INTO OFFICE AGAIN?
WONDER WHAT SHE TELLS HER CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN?
SEQUOIABISON = Troll
Nobody who even remotely calls themselves a progressive would spew the propaganda nonsense that SEQUOIABISON has vomited onto this thread.
rebel now: I agree 1000% with the Counterpunch article! I've been saying this since I heard he was running.
We need a consensus agenda and both sides just suck it up for 4 years on their partisan issues. The agenda of demilitarization, fiscal sanity and restoration of civil liberties is too great an opportunity. Throw in getting rid of the War on Drugs, World Bank, etc. etc the Dept of Education is a small price to pay.
To the anti-war left I'd say: Make the alliance, cut the deal. What better way to protect your turf that to have a seat at the table? Might even get more support for anti-war progressives in Congressional elections.
Not only Pelosi but also Dems = Bush enablers
Pelosi needs to be locked in the trunk of her car for a few hours.
The first thing to do is take over Washington and waterboard all of administration, congress, and supremes with the exception of Hagel, Kucinich, Feingold, Murtha, and a few other honorable ones until they tell the truth about all actions of the last 6 years, Then take another vote of all those turkeys and see what they think about it then. Then we begin the kangaroo court like the ones the administration likes to use.
You are so right SEQUOIABISON:
You say we here at Commondrearms are not "Progressive Liberals" and that you LOVE Nancy Pelosi.
You are right. I do not consider myself a "Progressive Liberal". Because if you scratch a "liberal" you find a fascist. Just look at yourself and Pelosi.
"According to the news reports, Pelosi has no complaint about waterboarding during a closed-door session she attended with Florida Congressman Porter Goss, a Republican who would go on to head the Central Intelligence Agency, Kansas Republican Senator Pat Roberts and Florida Democratic Senator Bob Graham." - John Nichols
Gee. I could have sworn I read that Rep. Jane "Homegrown Terrorism/9/11 Truthers are a National Security Risk Act" Harman was there too??! I wonder how Mr. Nichols managed to leave her out of this article?
What kind of response can we expect from a person that screams their call name in CAPITAL LETTERS ?
This is why impeachment is off the table. Because the Democrats are complicit in the crime.
I have waited months, years, and decades, for truths to be revealed. This is just another truth to come out.
The challenge is for progressives to quickly ask themselves if the Democratic Party can be rehabilitated, expunged, and reformed? Or, should the Party be abandoned, and if so, then what? There isn't much time. Which ever course of action is taken, will require one of the most incredible mobilization efforts in country's history, tick-tock Rudy and Hillary own the clock.
Ramsay
I have been reading Zinn's "People's History of the United States" (highly recommended) and he persuasively argues and demonstrates how again and again, throughout American history, the two-party system has been a convenient way of cloaking the always-potential, always seething class war in this country.
Rather than the poor and disenfranchised, of all colors and backgrounds (including immigrants, a group that is much maligned of late) uniting to demand changes to the system, we align ourselves with parties that are not very different from each other, dividing ourselves by issues like race, religion, abortion, "morality," etc., shit that doesn't put bread on the table or help us pay our rent.
We do indeed need a third party (or just 2 new parties), one that actually has the potential to unite people across party lines, based on economic issues. Wouldn't it be so much more clearer and honest if our two party system was split as follows: the "Corporate Party" and the "Labor Party"? In the latter, we would have representatives who support the interests of the proles (i.e., those who do not own the means of production). So, for instance, even if me and Joe Shmoe have different views on abortion, we could still be in the same party because one of the platforms of that party is halting the flow of tax money to the war, which instead should be flowing to improving this country (obviously one thing you are dealing with here is the mystery of why working class people vote Republican and the fact that socialism is this country's biggest bogeyman).
I think what we are dealing with here, whether we think the Dems are as bad as the Repubs and won't effect change, or whether we think they are the lesser of 2 evils, is that the Democratic Party no longer has a meaning (or is just a shill for corporations). We need parties that really represent our interests. I can no longer pretend that the Dems represent mine.
PS ... come to Denver next August to tell Ms. Pelosi and the rest of the Democrats what you really think ... in person.
Pelosi went around the country campaigning to take back Congress so she could get in on some of the corporate loot, which immediately started spilling over into the Democratic side of the aisle. And was it money well spent!
The first thing she did was take impeachment off the table, which signaled to Bush, as if he didn't know, that nothing will change. Just let us know what you want, we'll murmur politely and then we'll give it to you. Business will be conducted with different sound effects and the same old familiar results.
She has been in the lead for the DLC agenda, starting the compromise to the right of center and moving quickly to the right, every time. Fawning photo ops with Bush. Swanning around the halls of power with the other insiders. Putting those pesky progressives in their place.
Not enough votes to beat the Republicans? Bullshit, Nancy, you and the DLC never even intended to come to the game.
Enough of these people. What needs to happen is an organized progressive campaign to support serious opposition to every member of what was formerly known as the Democratic Party that is still supporting Bush.
Cindy:
If you don't win, that means San Franciscans Support Torture, I posted this yesterday but it seems appropriate today as well.
To each and every person over the age of 18 who lives in San Francisco - Do you support torture? Do you think it is okay to torture other humans? If you vote for Pelosi in the next election, or, you don't vote for Cindy Sheehan then you support torture. If you stay at home and don't vote for Cindy Sheehan then you support torture. It's that simple.
San Francisco do you support torture?
Any excuse as to why Pelosi, would be better than Sheehan, is an excuse for torture.
Ramsay
Had enough yet?
Please stop voting Democrat. You just keep getting more and more of this same @#$@. Please stop voting Democrat.
Reply:
no! don't stop voting...
vote for me!
if she has no comment, if it walks like a duck....well, you know the rest. jesus christ, are there no good politicians in america?
Any chance we can get California to stop voting......Pelosi Speaker of Torture, Feinstein only job making sure her husband gets thoses billion dollar contracts......I know the ethics committee said she did nothing wrong.
And we can't forget Gov. Swartzwhatever. A stupid german weightlifter.
If I lived there I put a bag over my head forever.....or maybe that earthquake to end all earthquakes will drop the damn state into the ocean......but make sure Congress is out of session.
But on second thought Pelosi will be touring secret prisons and Feinstein will be hob nobbing with the military industrial complex. As for the gov. who cares.
GO CINDY !
frank1569 and SEQUOIABISON raised valid points about not rushing to judgment.
Now Cindy Sheehan has asked Ms. Pelosi to explain her actions.
Ms. Pelosi? Hello...hello...hello
"Porter Goss should be talking to a Prison Guard about his cellmate problems"
I think most of us could get behind that (insert your favorite prison joke here).
Seriously (I think I can manage for a few seconds) -
Thank you again for your courage, Cindy. You are an inspiration to us.
US Congressional Candidate Cindy Sheehan Calls on Pelosi to Explain
Silence on Torture Briefing.
US Congressional Candidate Cindy Sheehan today called upon Nancy
Pelosi to respond to a story printed in the December 9 Washington Post
which claims that the Speaker of the House was present in a 2002
meeting where four members of Congress were given a virtual tour of
the CIA's overseas detention sites and torture program.
According to the CIA, no objections were raised by any member of
Congress present in the meeting, even though waterboarding, the
interrogation technique profiled in the meeting, is illegal under
international and US military law.
Pelosi has declined to comment on the story.
"My son was killed in part because of a battle that resulted from the
torture happening at Abu Ghraib," said Sheehan. "If Nancy Pelosi had
done the right thing in 2002 and taken a stance against the use of
inhumane torture practices Casey might still be alive, so would
thousands more and think of those who could have been saved from this
horrific abuse."
"How she can claim that she supports the troops when her actions and
silence put them directly into harms way?"
Sheehan, who this year declared her candidacy to run for Pelosi's
seat, reaffirmed her intentions to unseat the House Speaker.
"This is the smoking gun that makes it obvious why Nancy Pelosi 'took
impeachment off the table.' It is more urgent now than ever that she
is removed from office & I am even more determined to win her seat in
2008."
Waterboarding, a simulated drowning technique used as a torture method
since the Spanish Inquisition, is outlawed under Article 3, Section 1
(a) of the Geneva Convention which prohibits, "Violence to life and
person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment
and torture." All countries signatory to the UN Convention Against
Torture are subject to the prohibition on torture. In 2006, the US
Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled
Human Intelligence Collector Operations prohibiting the use of
waterboarding by U.S. military personnel.
"Nancy Pelosi and other members of Congress should be using their
Constitutional authority to end all use of torture." said Sheehan,
"Acquiring information through use of torture on prisoners of war is
as inhumane as it is unreliable."
According to Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11 of the U.S. Constitution,
"The Congress shall have power to....declare war... and make rules
concerning captures on land and water;"
-END-
Pelosi is just Cheney in drag.
Poster SEQUOIABISON provides us with a textbook illustration of the hopeless ostrich-like ignorance of Democrats. At 12:57 pm he claims, "Nothing like shooting first and getting the facts later. I can only repeat my love for this incredibly courageous woman (Pelosi)..."
- Actually, the "facts" in the article show that at an absolute minimum, Pelosi was in the "closed door session" & had no objection at all to waterboarding. The only thing the article leaves unclear is whether she was one of the 2 congresspersons who expressed concern that perhaps waterboarding was not "tough enough."
"Nancy took away the presidents rubber stamp House almost single handedly, going around the country and making the case for change."
- Please name for us a single Bush initiative that Pelosi has not passed. There isn't a single one -- she's given Bush everything he's asked for. The only "opposition" she's put up was that last spring, she delayed for a while with phony posturing on "time tables for withdrawal" before finally caving in 100%.
"When do you guys think the Third Party will be able to take control of the government? Will that be before the end of the Twenty First Century?"
- This is what you'd expect from a Democrat (& self-confessed Pelosi-lover). The idea is to dismiss the views of those who see that real & serious change is necessary, on the grounds that they hold no seats in government. In other words, that fact that our corrupt 2-party system doesn't allow for any parties except the two controlled by Wall St & the military-industrial complex, is used as an argument against those who see a problem with this set-up. (Imagine the same logic being applied to other tyrannies in history. We could have, for example, a supporter of the last Czar trying to ridicule those who believed czarism should be overthrown, by jeering, "When do you guys think your new party will be able to take control of the government?"
Mr SEQUOIABISON continues (2:17 pm), "You people sound like it was the dems that initiated the war and the dems that were responsible for Abu Graib and Gitmo. Perhaps you guys were away from class when Bush and the Republican Congress authorized the bombing of Iraq with shock and awe and Cheney was out there justifying it. Now you want to lay this mess and the Bush approved torture at the dems door. Pleeeze..."
- Actually, a majority of Senate Dems (and about 40% of House Dems) voted in favor of the war resolution, too. And the above article proves that Pelosi, Jane Harman & Graham (all Dems) knew about the torture BEFORE Abu Ghraib. And the Dems have done absolutely nothing to oppose this stuff. Most of them voted for the MCA (abolishing habeas & justifying Gitmo tribunals) in Oct 2006. And the issue of Abu Ghraib was never once even raised by Kerry in the 2004 campaign.
The accurate assessment is that the Dems have gone along with ALL of this monstrously immoral stuff without a peep of protest -- and often, they've actively voted to support measures of unjust war and torture. They have given Bush full funding on everything he's asked for, & haven't seriously investigated a single one of his crimes.
This essay fails to establish any facts re: Pelosi whatsoever. Relying on quotes by Porter friggin Goss, a major cheneybush cultist, and some anonymous "aide?" Since when is that enough to start fryin' Madame Speaker, especially when compared to, you know, the f**king maniacs who actually ORDERED the torture and COMMITTED the torture and LIED about the torture and LOBBIED for more torture and have now DESTROYED EVIDENCE of the torture.
Porter Goss should be talking to a Prison Guard about his cellmate problems, not to some reporter about one of the most powerful women in America.
And Senate Intelligence Committee chair Jay Rockefeller, D-West Virginia, and key members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have effectively pressed the issue on a number of fronts.
Not according to Glenn Greenwald who says:
Jay Rockefeller was one of the key Democrats briefed on the torture methods who never objected. But it's far worse than that. In September, 2006, Rockefeller was one of 12 Senate Democrats to vote in favor of the Military Commissions Act, one of the principal purposes of which was to explicitly authorize the CIA's "enhanced interrogation program" to proceed (even though it continues to be illegal under the Geneva Conventions). Thus, not only did Rockefeller remain silent when continuously briefed on illegal torture methods by the CIA, he then voted to legalize those methods by voting in favor of one of the most Draconian laws in modern American history. That law also retroactively immunized government officials from any liability for past lawbreaking.
This is not just about Pelosi. It's about the total Democratic leadership of both houses abandoning any pretense of leading "the opposition" and, instead, demonstrating how to become a "good German" of the 21st century.
Random running of stops signs that coincidently kill one's boyfriend... yeah, sounds like she was being cosmically groomed for her dark lord.
I should have put Laura at the top. Hillary, Sandra, and Condi haven't killed anyone yet.
Are women ready to lead?
Let's look at the fine exaples of women that are 'in power':
Hillary Clinton
Laura Bush
Sandra O'Connor
Condoleeza Rice
It appears that you have to be a shifty, sleezy, pernicious woman in order to achieve power.
It's the same for men so I guess that shows there's no difference between the sexes after all.
Pelosi is a wolf in sheep's clothing. She is the single richest member of Congress and her husband is a major contributor to AIPAC. Just call her Repug Lite.
Perhaps Pelosi is like the great "progressive" democrat Bill Clinton. I will never forget when he left the primary campaign trail to go back to Arkansas to preside over the execution of a brain damaged african american man. That is the kind of "progressive" the so called democratic "progessives" today so love.
locust
Yeah, that list of Democratic "accomplishments" is really impressive, isn't it? Not a single one has anything to do with repairing GW Bush's destruction of American rights and benefits, restoring America's Constitutional government, bringing GW Bush to justice for his criminal activities, or ending the war in Iraq.
Pelosi thinks governing is a tea party with crooked pinkies and dainty napkins, making nice with criminals, when right now we need an all-out battle to settle this Constitutional crisis.
How many Dems voted for the AUMF (Public Law 107-243) that was used to invade Iraq? None, was it?
"Give the Republicans a pass." ???
"Perhaps you guys were away from class..."
I don't go to class. I'm an insect. I was out swarming.
"Now you want to lay this mess..."
Actually, based on what I've read here over and over, we want to end this mess and Ms. Pelousy (cheap shot) is not doing enough (anything?), IMHIO (in my humble insect opinion).
Anyway, despite these differences, peace to you and yours.
Proverbs 30:27 tells us that 'the locusts have no king' - my fav Bible line.
Right now, Gov Kane is talking about this on Talk of the Nation on NPR
A former CIA operative called in and said that this technique saves american lives.
That they successfully obtained information from some supposed AlQaeeda operatives that saved American Lives.
Really.
How many people are out there hatching new plans that you have no idea about, despite wire tapping American Citizens?
What other procedures outlined in the Geneva Convention would you use to extract information from a person, and how many lives would it save.
And if we still get badly attacked, is the procedure still justified?
When our people get captured in "enemy" or "Occupied" lands, what are we to expect from their captors? And then from their families?
Old Questions, all, I am sure
Zero
SEQUOIABISON, I would call you a fantasist. A "progressive liberal" who believes in the current corrupt political system. If I'm not mistaken, the dems are about to cave and continue to fund the killing of innocents... under the guise of funding Afghanistan. Pelosi talked a good game and then realized she's controlled by the same forces the other side... "Oh yeah, who funded my campaign and how will I ever get re-elected?"
A stance on torture, like one on invading a country on lies, cannot be short-sighted... any politician with a shred of moral fiber knows this. I'm sure Pelosi will blame it on the political climate of 2002... and "progressive liberals" like you will give her a pass and then go vote for Hillary... and then explain to us how much progress has been made... wake up please... many here are grounded in the brutal life and death reality that currently surrounds us.
No matter that this was a strategic Republican leak... if it shows someones true colors I await more leaks. I hope you're wearing your "I heart Pelosi" pin when more funding goes to this war... you and your progressive friends can sit around patting each other on the back... reassuring yourselves about being courageous.
"Yeah, progressives go around insulting their friends in order to win arguments."
First of all I am not trying to win an argument, just defending the honor of a great lady.
I never have illusions of winning points with irrational people, and you people are among the densest I have ever come across.
Give the Republicans a pass.
You people sound like it was the dems that initiated the war and the dems that were responsible for Abu Graib and Gitmo.
Perhaps you guys were away from class when Bush and the Republican Congress authorized the bombing of Iraq with shock and awe and Cheney was out there justifying it.
Now you want to lay this mess and the Bush approved torture at the dems door. Pleeeze.
What a pathetic rewriting of history.
"...you people are illogical and I might add dumb."
I'm just an insect, not a person at all, and I feel left out. Please insult me as well.
"My friends, I am a progressive liberal,..."
Yeah, progressives go around insulting their friends in order to win arguments.
For a laugh, please go here:
http://www.dccc.org/100hours/
and read about all the wonderful things that the Dems have ALREADY accomplished for us.
I love the check marks.
We will start by cleaning up Congress
no new deficit spending.
We will make our economy fairer
We will make health care more affordable for all Americans
We will energize America by achieving energy independence
No wonder they're so tired that they've rolled over and played dead.
Who supports Pelosi and torture?
American Senator Feinstein was speaking to a CNN tv personality the other day on this issue. She said that America shouldn't go in for "heavy" torture.
So, I guess, "light" torture is ok. Don't set the bar too high there, Dianne. Who decides what is light and what is heavy? Let me guess, is his first name George?
Don't bother changing all the references to torture in American legal documents. There is probably already a secret "signing statement" or "executive order" that does just that. Anyway, you have already passed a law that exempts the CIA and allows them to break the law and torture people. As if it matters to people around the world whether it is this or that arm of the US government that is kidnapping, torturing and murdering. (I guess what US presidents meant when they signed all those arms control, refugee, anti-torture treaties was:
US leaders: "we keep our word, unless we don't, …but that is ok because the CIA or department x or bureau y is doing it, plus…I was crossing my fingers behind my back while signing, aha got you!)
Just to be on the safe side though, hold some hearings, grant some immunity and while you are at it, declare the whole wide world a terrorist entity (it will save you the effort of having to do it piecemeal).
But don't be surprised, Senator Feinstien, Nancy Pelosi et al, if the rest of the world starts to question the word of the US. And in case you haven't noticed, the natives are less and less willing to put up with your Democrat/Republican good cop/bad cop routine. If the US ceases to be a reliable actor on the world stage, other nations will feel compelled to either acquire nuclear weapons or create alliances with other nuclear-armed states. I don't think this is a good thing, not even for the millionaire/billionaire politicians Americans allow to rule them. (Is it true you have a 99% re-election rate for members of congress? Sweet.)
It is very simple guys….. The great thinker and philosopher, Lewis Black, once said ,,, "the Democrats are the party of no ideas and the Republicans are the party of bad ideas."
Pelosi should be removed and prosecuted.
Well, we know a Cindy Sheehan who is running for Pelosi's seat. This could be a good time for progressives to get behind her and try to knock Pelosi out. Then, we would have to get a new speaker, and it is difficult to know what the beltway Democrats might come up with next. Still it would send a powerful message.
We cannot just support any Democrat. Progressives have to rally behind unseating Democrats who are helping the other side.
celebrity, and others, what do you think of this article about Ron Paul in counterpunch today? www.counterpunch.com/volatile12102007.html
It is amazing to me that our country has a need for discussion about torture. Existing law and treaty agreements are crystal clear as to the use of ANY method to coerce gathering of intellegence from prisonors. I do agree that everyone in the chain of command that permitted this disgrace be brought to justice.
Veteran '66-68
Pelosi has said over and over that impeachment is off the table. She has shown that her own personal decision overrides the rule of law and the truth. This is not the kind of leadership we need from Democrats. She is just another Washington "Decider" like Bush.
SEQUOIABISON's mindless support and love of Pelosi is just a form of celebrity love. I would rather love the truth and what is right instead of some politician. When the politican follows the law and works to bring the truth to light, then maybe I can respecct her or him. But this hero worship or love of political leaders, that is corrupt.
Pelosi lost a lot of respect the way she treated Code Pink members who camped out in front of her home in Pacific Heights. She told them that they were not her constituents. She waived them off. This is not a great leader. She is just another women from wealth and privilege who is out of touch with plight of the common people.
How depressing to realize that both major parties are gung-ho on this stupid "war on Terror" and building an Israeli-American empire in the middle east no matter what it takes. Will the American people ever take their country back? It appears not as the two leading candidates (both from Arkansas)are both followers of Bush and will continue building the empire abroad while dismantling civil liberties at home.
We've known all along that the Republicans could not have dismantled a free democratic govermnent unless the Democrats were helping them all along. Only now are all of the ways they helped the criminals starting to trickle out.
Yes Impeach Pelosi first!
Well that is my Dream but we can all support Cindy who is runnin for Pelosi's seat.
That is for real!
Spock would say Pelosi is illogical.
We need to make sure that everyone is aware of this and those voters who live in Cindy Sheehan's district absolutely must vote for her, and those who do not need to send money to her campaign.
"Was Pelosi one of the "tough-enough" cheerleaders for waterboarding? That is not clear.."
Nothing like shooting first and getting the facts later.
I can only repeat my love for this incredibly courageous woman.
If she had not been instrumental in winning back the House from those gangsters, I think we would now be expanding the war in Iran and Syria and further undermining our social programs.
Nancy took away the presidents rubber stamp House almost single handedly, going around the country and making the case for change.
My friends, I am a progressive liberal, I know a lot of progressive liberals, you people are not progressive liberals.
The Liberals I know are intelligent and logical, Spock might say you people are illogical and I might add dumb.
Or as the Beatles might say, I would love to see the plans for your revolution.
When do you guys think the Third Party will be able to take control of the government?
Will that be before the end of the Twenty First Century?
IMPEACH PELOSI!
In my letters to Pelosi re: impeachment, I used to include pictures of Iraqi children maimed / killed and tell her that she had blood on her hands.
Now, I'm going to include pictures of people being tortured and tell her that at some point, the universal karma will put her on the recieving end.
Thankfully, the Universe / God / Life - choose the word that works for you - is a Just Universe.
Let's flood her office with letters and torture pictures! She shall reap what she has sown.
demon-crats, (anti)-republic-ans, wht's the difference? All any of them want is Power.
If Pelosi doesn't resign as Speaker of the House I wonder whether she can be voted out by fellow Democrats?
She is keeping impeachment "off the table" in flagrant violation of her oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States! No small accomplishment in the service of Bush. It's obnoxious!
Mordechai Shiblikov: "Kucinish and Gravel are distant echoes of what it used to mean to be a Democrat. Vote for Ron Paul and start the process of tearing down this oppressive federal government."
You lost me when you mention Kucinich and Gravel then turn to plead for Republican Ron Paul. Apparently you, like many of Paul's "worshippers" have not done your research and homework on him or just are
not as Progressive as you think.
http://wwww.december152007
Pelosi panders to AIPAC....enough said!
This is a hugely important issue.
Please - waterboarding is not simulated drowning, it IS drowning. It deliberately introduces water into the victim's airways - nothing "simulated" about that.
Let's just add her to the list of war criminals and hope someday there's a trial where they are all imprisoned for life for the deaths that they have caused directly and indirectly
The only issue I have with this article is the use of the phrase 'simulates drowning'. If you fill someone's lungs with water, is that not actual drowning?
Calling it 'simulated' (read: fake) lessens the impact of the horror of the thing. I don't believe I'd be willing to call it 'fake drowning' if the victim is actually experiencing what I've read about waterboarding techniques. But it sure doesn't sound as mean as saying, 'we drowned him, and then rescued him so we could ask him more questions.'
As for Pelosi, I have always known she was an ambitious politician. We knew it in California, back in the day, and she hasn't changed. Like almost all politicians her ethics are political, which means they are basically corporate (which of course means they are basically non-existent).
Further proof that satanism not only makes lousy music, but is a shitty state religion as well.
Pelosi represents what has happened to the Democratic party. Pelosi, Schumer, Feinstein, Rahm Emmanuel, Hillary Clinton, the DLC, ad nauseum, show that when shove comes to push the Democruds are as enamored of imperial ass kicking as the reactionary right. They are all so desperate to chant "We're Number One" and wear the giant red, white and blue foam rubber hand with the gun barrel index finger pointing to heaven. Deep inside the pockets of corporations and the Israel lobby the Democratic party has ceased to exist. Good people like Kucinich and Gravel are distant echoes of what it used to mean to be a Democrat. Vote for Ron Paul and start the process of tearing down this oppressive federal government.
It now becomes clear why Pelosi is such a Bush mouthpiece; impeachment gearings would expose her complicity in crimes underwritten by the current administration.
TheLorax--Are women ready to lead? Check out the comment from Cindy Sheehan above. Don't judge us all by the actions of the freaks you mentioned.