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Romney: Some Beliefs Are More Equal than Others
Mitt Romney's speech in Texas on Thursday was supposed to be an attempt to fend off religious bigotry. Instead, it betrays some prejudices of its own (against secular people), and seems to provoke others to bigotted statements. It has been likened to the speech of John F. Kennedy on his Catholicism. But we knew John F. Kennedy, and Mitt Romney is no John F. Kennedy. Kennedy strongly affirmed the separation of religion and state. Romney wants to dragoon us into a soft theocracy (not as a Mormon but as a Republican allied to the Pat Robertsons of the world). Kennedy wanted to be accepted as an American by other Americans. Romney wants to be accepted as a conservative Christian by other conservative Christians.
This conundrum is the price the Republican Party is paying for pandering to the religious Right. Can a secular person even win the Republican nomination any more? If you make yourself captive of the Protestant Right, then you will discover that they believe Mormons are heretics. The Republican Party has established its own litmus test, and since it has been a dominant party in recent years, we've all been affected by it. Romney's plight in finding it hard to be accepted by that constituency mirrors the plight of secular and unchurched Americans, on whom the very people Romney is sucking up to want to impose their narrow and sectarian values.
The unsavory aspects of this entire discourse are apparent in the op-ed of Naomi Schaeffer Riley for the Wall Street Journal. While she depicts Mormons in a positive light, she displays the most gut-wrenching bigotry toward Muslims. She writes:
' A recent Pew poll shows that only 53% of Americans have a favorable opinion of Mormons. That's roughly the same percentage who feel that way toward Muslims. By contrast, more than three-quarters of Americans have a favorable opinion of Jews and Catholics. Whatever the validity of such judgments, one has to wonder: Why does a faith professed by the 9/11 hijackers rank alongside that of a peaceful, productive, highly educated religious group founded within our own borders?'
I just wanted literally to puke on my living room carpet when I read this bilge. Islam is not 'the faith professed by 9/11 hijackers.' Islam is the religion of probably 1.3 billion persons, a fifth of humankind, which will probably be a third of humankind by 2050. Islam existed for 1400 years before the 9/11 hijackers, and will exist for a very long time after them. Riley has engaged in the most visceral sort of smear, associating all Muslims with the tiny, extremist al-Qaeda cult.
We could play this game with any human group. Some Catholics were responsible for the Inquisition. Shall we blame Catholicism for that, or all Catholics? Of course not. Jewish Zionists expelled hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians from their homes in 1948. Is that Judaism's fault or that of Jews in general? Of course not.
She goes on to further stick her foot in her mouth by complaining that she heard conservative Christians call Mormonism 'the fourth Abrahamic religion' (alongside Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and complains that they compared a Muslim belief she considers 'wacky' to Mormon stories. It is all right for her to call folk Islamic motifs wacky, mind you. She's only interested in being fair to Mormons, not to Muslims. Mormons are good people, but some of their forebears were also involved in violence in the 19th century of a sort that other Americans viewed as terrorism.
Riley's remarks exemplify the problems with Romney's speech, which demands fairness for his group but not for, e.g., secularists.
Thus, he says:
"In John Adams' words: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. ... Our Constitution," he said, "was made for a moral and religious people." Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom."
What Romney omits is that many of the "religious people" among the founding fathers were Deists, who did not believe in revelation or miracles or divine intervention in human affairs. Thomas Jefferson used to sit in the White House in the evening with scissors and cut the miracle stories out of the Gospels so as to end up with a reasoned story about Jesus of Nazareth, befitting the Enlightenment.
Some Founding Fathers were Christians, some were not, at least not in any sense that would be recognized by today's Religious Right. Jefferson believe that most Americans would end up Unitarians.
As for the insistence that you need religion for political freedom, that is silly. Organized religion has many virtues, but pushing for political liberty is seldom among them. Religion is about controlling people. No religiously based state has ever provided genuine democratic governance. You want religion in politics, go to Iran.
Liberty can survive religion, especially a multiplicity of religions within the nation. Because that way there is not a central faith that imposes itself on everyone, as Catholicism used to in Ireland or Buddhism used to in Tibet. But organized religion would never ever have produced the First Amendment to the US constitution, and the 19th century popes considered it ridiculous that the state should treat false religions as equal to the True Faith.
Deists, freethinkers and Freemasons--the kind of people that Romney was complaining about-- produced the First Amendment. When Tom Jefferson tried out an earlier version of it in Virginia, some of the members of the Virginia assembly actually complained that freedom of religion would allow the practice of Islam in the US. Jefferson's response to that kind of bigotry was that other people believing in other religions did not pick his pocket or break his leg, so why should he care how they worshipped? And that's all Romney had to say. But he did not want to say that. Romney said the opposite. He implied that is is actively bad for a democracy if people are unbelievers or if there is a strict separation of religion and state.
We know the Founding Fathers and Romney is no founding father.
By Romney's definition of freedom, Sweden and France, where 50% and 40% of the population, respectively, does not believe in God, cannot have a proper democracy. But of course Swedish democracy is in many respects superior to that in the United States.
The text of Mitt Romney's sermon is here.
Romney says:
' But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It's as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America-the religion of secularism. They are wrong. '
Look, the reason that Americans took religion out of the public sphere was because the religious kept fighting with each other in the most vicious way. We had violence between Catholics and Protestants in schools in the 19th century because religion was in the public schools, and therefore each branch of Christianity wanted to dominate and control it. You take religion out of the schools, suddenly people stop fighting about it.
People like Romney who want to put religion back into the public sphere are just going to cause a lot of trouble. 14% of Americans don't believe in God. Another 5% belong to minority religions (and both categories are rapidly growing). That nearly 20% doesn't necessarily want sectarian Christian symbols in public schools. Even a lot of the 80% that are some kind of Christian don't belong to a church and aren't necessarily orthodox in their views.
So Romney's so-called plea for tolerance is actually a plea for the privileging of religion in American public life. He just wants his religion to share in that privilege that he wants to install. Ironically, the very religious pluralism of the United States, which he appears to praise, will stand in the way of his project.
Juan Cole teaches Middle Eastern and South Asian history at the University of Michigan. His most recent book Napoleon's Egypt: Invading the Middle East (New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2007) has just been published. He has appeared widely on television, radio and on op-ed pages as a commentator on Middle East affairs, and has a regular column at Salon.com. He has written, edited, or translated 14 books and has authored 60 journal articles.
© 2007 Juan Cole
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Show All75 million years ago, there was an alien galactic ruler named Xenu who was in charge of 76 planets in our sector of the galaxy, including planet Earth, whose name at that time was Teegeeack.
All of the planets Xenu controlled were over-populated by, on average, 178 billion people. Social problems dictated that Xenu rid his sector of the galaxy of this overpopulation problem, so he developed a plan.
Xenu sent out Tax Audit demands to all these billions of people.
As each one entered the audit centers for the income tax inspections, the people were seized, held down and injected with a mixture of alcohol and glycol, and frozen. Then, all 13.5 trillion of these frozen people were put into spaceships that looked exactly like DC8 airplanes, except that the spaceships had rocket engines instead of propellers.
Xenu's entire fleet of DC8-like spaceships then flew to planet Earth, where the frozen people were dumped in and around volcanoes in the Canary Islands and the Hawaiian Islands. When Xenu's Air Force had finished dumping the bodies into the volcanoes, hydrogen bombs were dropped into the volcanoes and the frozen space aliens were destroyed.
However, Xenu's plan involved setting up electronic traps in Teegeeack's atmosphere which were designed to trap the souls or spirits of the dead space aliens. When the 13.5 trillion spirits were being blown around on the nuclear winds, the electronic traps worked like a charm and captured all the souls in the electronic, sticky fly-paper like traps.
The spirits of the aliens were then taken to huge multiplex cinemas that Xenu had previously instructed his forces to build on Teegeeack. In these movie theaters the spirits had to spend many days watching special 3-D movies, the purpose of which was twofold: 1) to implant into these spirits a false reality, know on Earth today; and, 2) to control these spirits for all eternity so that they could never cause trouble for Xenu in this sector of the Galaxy. During these films, many false pictures were implanted into these spirits, which resulted in the spirits believing in all the things that control mankind on Earth today, including religion. The concept of religion, including God, Christ, Mohammed, Moses etc., were all an implanted false reality that to this very minute is used to control WOGS(people) on Earth.
When the films ended and the souls left the cinema, they started to stick together in clusters of a few thousand and remained that way until mankind began to inhabit the Earth. Today on Earth all the spirits of these aliens have attached themselves to our bodies and are the root cause of the false reality that all but Scientology's "Homo Novis" or OT 8's on earth experience. It is the job of all Scientologists to remove this false reality from the world by auditing each and every space alien spirit and human on earth to CLEAR not only this planet but the universe. For those who oppose Scientology and stand in their way like the Lisa McPherson Trust and all Scientology critics, Scientology promises to do away with them "quietly and without sorrow".
the Loyal Officers of the Marcab Confederation finally discovered how evil Xenu was and overthrew him. He is now locked away in a mountain on one of the planets and kept in by a force-field powered by an eternal battery. Several of Xenu's relatives can often be found on the internet newsgroup called alt.religion.scientology or ARS for short battling Scientology daily.
Tom Cruise for President!!- On the Highway to the Danger Zone!!
Does anyone really want God to be in ostensive control of the most powerful nation on the planet?
"Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."
Now just replace Amalek with the name of any other people....
Do you really want a Genocidal God in charge????
We are moving towards a complete takeover by these religious crusaders and in fact the beloved Joseph Smith founder of Romney's cult called for a "theodemocracy." He also was a fraud artist like so many of American religious leaders today. Now we have both parties pandering to this nonsense and of course that explains how an idiot like Bush can actually get elected. I am praying for a massive retreat from religion to help restore America's greatness. My freedom does not flow from God.
Take a good look in Romney's shifty eyes....he is a snake oil salesman.
It makes me nervous when conservatives start quoting Thomas Jefferson - or FDR or HST, for that matter.
What IS it with those people?
It is doubtful that Mitt Romney will be elected President. A lot of non-Christians think his Mormon faith is super-strict and scary. The evangelicals, on the other hand, are highly skeptical of what they call "extra-Biblical" revelation. Those who actually believe that Jesus Christ completed a finished work on The Cross for the salvation of mankind are usually not much interested in hearing about another subsequent sacred scripture (by Joseph Smith or anyone else), and probably won't go for a guy all grown up to adulthood who continues to adhere to such a thing.
What "Crisis of Faith"?
All the MSM anointed candidates, particularly Romney. who are auditioning for the figure-head presidency of 'Vichy America' from its hidden global corporatist Empire bosses have their faith first, most, and only in elitist Mammon.
Mormon, no problem.
Private Equity Pirate, BIG Problem!!
The fact that Romney is a Mormon should be no problem and no concern about Romney as a candidate.
However, the fact that Romney basically invented Private Equity Piracy at his Bain Capital, and that he made most of his money by slashing tens of thousands of American workers out of their jobs, breaking-up companies, and using 'capital' to game the system and help hollow-out America should be the BIG problem for anyone so stupid and ill-informed of his economic piracy to even consider voting for this rapacious Private Equity Pirate!
Private Equity Pirates and Hedge Fund Whores (along with crooked Investment Bankers) are at the very heart of the financial schemes and looting that are right now destroying America, wrecking havoc in the mortgage industry, causing millions of foreclosures, and gaming the entire US economy by planting negative externality 'debt bombs' (like CDOs and SIVs) that are now exploding all over the place and will soon push us off the plank and into a second Great Depression.
It was Romney who virtually invented this whole stinking financial scam and piracy at Bain Capital.
Any average (non-elite) American would have to have a death-wish to vote for this pirate!!
— Alan MacDonald, Sanford, Maine
""Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."
Now just replace Amalek with the name of any other people…."
well that brings up a good point for all those on here who advocate how peaceful or just christianity is. one good read thru the bible reveals much of it as an immoral book. as an ex-christian and an atheists i certainly don't want a theocracy of any kind.
"I am praying for a massive retreat from religion to help restore America's greatness. My freedom does not flow from God." - good for you countess!
Isn't this the same Romney who said that his sons weren't going to do any military service because they were spending all their energies helping Dad get elected?
Ms.Riley; to have a fair survey you would have had to leave out all Muslims, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants and Jews: who, exactly, did you find left to interview?
Naomi Schaeffer Riley asks: "Why does a faith professed by the 9/11 hijackers rank alongside that of a peaceful, productive, highly educated religious group founded within our own borders?"
I'd submit that it's because those faiths, and their adherents, equally deluded. The fact that Catholics and Jews are relatively equally more highly regarded reflects a considered judgement that they are just a bit less deluded.
And I will go Mr Cole one better - Swedish democracy is in ALL respects superior to what passes for such in the United States.
Everyone has religion.
Secularism is considered a religion according to philosophy of religion 300 courses.
Buddhism is an atheistic religion.
People just get the terms messed up because they assume God= religion.
The Bible is an ugly book strung together by the vicious and corrupt Roman Empire from people that lived a harsh existence as hunters-herders(and look how peaceful they are today!).
But if we replace the bible with Darwin's Origin of the Species you can bet human nature will interpret that to mean go forth and conquer, plunder, kill.
As a matter of practicallity and the requirement of availability to serve their terms, I think all Christians should be barred from holding office for the good of the country.
Imagine this scenario.
President Romeny, with Vice President Huckabee (for example), being sworn into office in Jan 09. Good Christians are also elected as House Speaker and President pro Tempore of the Senate.
Next, President Romney appoints good god fearin' Christians to the following positions:
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Agriculture
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health & Human Services
Secretary of Housing & Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veterans' Affairs
Secretary of Homeland Security
Early February 2009, the Rapture happens, as they have predicted, and the Prez, VP and entire line of sucession, good christians all simply disappear from the face of the earth and acsend to heaven.
NOW WHO IS GOING TO BE LEFT TO RUN THE COUNTRY?!?!?!?
Isn't a requirement of holding these high offices swearing to be avaialable to fulfil the post? How can Christians, not knowing the mind of god, nor the exact timing of the Rapture, make ANY kind of time commitment when the Rapture could be just around the corner?
Also, Jews have to be barred because by the same belief, as they will all be in Jerusalem by this time.
WE NEED ONLY ATHIESTS AND BUDHISTS IN CHARGE IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE GOVERNANCE OF THE COUNTRY IN THE FACE OF THE RAPTURE AND HELP GIUDE THE COUTRY THROUGH THE TRIBULATIONS OF ARMAGEADON!!!
ROLFLMAO!!
Kelmer,
I think there's been a bit of sloppiness in defining what a religion is versus a philosophy. Philosophy, at very least in the western Greco-Roman sense of the word, demands logic and reasoning -- internal consistency if nothing else. By that standard secularism is a philosophy. A religion can be any mixed up bunch of fables that rely on magical beings to make things happen.
May Odin protect you
"So Romney's so-called plea for tolerance is actually a plea for the privileging of religion in American public life."
And up is down and black is white. Pres Looney Tunes, wish to comment? "I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." And Rudy is America's Mayor. And, according to Rove, it's the Dems who pushed for illegally invading Iraq, not the peace-lover-in-chief.
Tomorrow: steak is chicken.
An argument for applying a religious test for political office, such that if you have religion, any religion, you can't take office is found here - http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/37829/Atheists_rule_ok.html
Naomi Schaeffer Riley should read the history of Mormonism from the beginning before she starts contrasting a 'violent' faith like Islam with the 'peaceful, productive' Mormons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_massacre
Wars and violence have been waged throughout history in the name of all major religions, and Mormonism is no exception.
"Some Catholics were responsible for the Inquisition. Shall we blame Catholicism for that, or all Catholics?"
YES! I thought you'd never ask. Maybe we can talk about all the other horrid things Catholics have done as a group. And actually, it was not "some Catholics" but THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Big difference.
Catholics are part of a horrid, racist, sexist faith, and to profess that faith in any way gives strength to the nut jobs in Rome. All religions work like this - the nuts get support from the less nutty.
The only people with no blood on their hands are the people who don't believe in magic gods and invisible spirits. You know - people who live in reality.
Kelmer,
"Secularism is considered a religion according to philosophy of religion 300 courses."
At which school? Only a school teaching a particular religion would be calling secularism a religion in advanced philosophy courses.
The only people who use "secularism" as a term for non-theists are religionists of some type or other, and it's fairly typical of the faux-judo style of argumentation of apologists, on the "if nothing is absolutely true than it can't be absolutely true that there are no absolutes" kind. "You oppose religion but your anti-religion is a form of religion" is only a proselytizer's tactic intended for an audience already disposed towards theistic views.
Those who prefer non-sectarian rule and non-sectarian ways of life view as negative most (but not all) of what most religionists view as positive. Refusal to regard the ideas & experiences of human beings which purport to be communications from spirits or divinities is not the equivalent of a doctrine or teaching of a belief vouchsafed by such beings; it's a rule of thumb which is generally taken for granted, not only by non-believers, but by most believers as well. All varieties of Christian regard most would-be revelations as faulty, including most of those which are supposedly from Jesus. Since all religious believers view all other religions as relative to their own ultimately true or real religion, the only way to oblige them all to live in civil society is to refuse to give any of them individually or several of them together the privilege of defnining law and belief for everyone.
Even the action of giving different forms of worship & belief the generic term "religion" obliterates what the adherents think is most important: i.e., every religious person, even the least doctrinal, has to believe that all others are in some way defective, are all, in some degree, a worship of false divinities or mistaken teachings. It's only FROM the secular vantage point that one can group them under one roof.
aquietman, that was a stellar comment you wrote.
Thank you, and I agree with you.
I believe that kittens come from dogs. THere's no evidence of it, I admit. I'll never be able to show or tell you what this means. But I'm running for President, and you can believe me, that if you'll just respect my beliefs (manure or not), I will never let them interfere with my commanding role in a reason-and-reality-based democracy like ours. I promise to be completely reasonable except when I pray and that's none of your business, though I'll make how you pray (and THAT you pray) my business before you know it. Now if you'll excuse me, the cat is barking....
What's the difference between a "cult" and a "religion"?
Time and the number of people who have been duped.
Romney is a racist fucker! Like most Mormans. There religion is based on the premise that Jesus came to america to find a lost sect of jews, he found two groups, one that was rightous, and one that was not. According to mormans, he tainted the skin of the non-rightous ones dark to set them apart.
I don't care what he says, religious freedom or not, I think Mormans are a special brand of crazies and racists, and I hope to (non) god that they never get the kind of power he is looking for.
Not to take anything at all away from scaredhippie (with whom I completely agree), but Romney is a pretty scarey guy no matter what religion he practices.
He became angry and offensive today when asked about continuing to employe a lawn service that he had been warned employed illegal aliens a year ago. He claims it's not his fault. Typical Republican. He preaches his purity out of one side of his mouth and spits offal out of the other side.
Gee, I can't imagine why illegals come to this country when people like you keep hiring them, Mitt!
"Everyone has religion.
Secularism is considered a religion according to philosophy of religion 300 courses."
My thanks to those who countered the above.
"Buddhism is an atheistic religion."
Labeling Buddhism as an atheistic religion, is akin to labeling a human as "not-donkey." Every animal other than a donkey is "not-donkey," an almost worthless description.
Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. It contends that it is *irrelevant* whether or not one or more deities exist.
If you are really interested in an atheistic religion, look up Jainism.
Has any one other than Keith Olbermann in the MSM pointed out Romney's contradictory position regarding treating his Latter Day Saints beliefs on par with other "Christian" religions, but at the same time excluding those people who choose not to believe in any?
My only bible is The Constitution of The United States of America.
I hold no other text above it.
I hold no man above it.
I hold no god above it.
"[The Latter Day Saints/ Mormon] religion is based on the premise that Jesus came to america to find a lost sect of jews, he found two groups, one that was rightous, and one that was not. According to mormans, he tainted the skin of the non-rightous ones dark to set them apart."
This above is true. However, the church no longer adheres to this belief.
Many religious beliefs, regardless of religion, make little sense to non-adherents. Focusing on the shortcomings of one religion or the other obscures the broader issue of forcing religious beliefs on people who are not inclined to accept the same.
As bizarre as it may seem, the only way for people who want to promote/allow religious expression in public, is for them to reduce religion to being a private matter. If this is the norm among the populace, then religious expression in public will increase, as it will then be an expression of a person, similar to a dress or a hairstyle.
I came to Utah 16 years ago without much knowledge of the Mormons, over the objections of friends who hated them. I have learned much. Whatever the Mormons are, they are NOT mainstream. They may be moral, upstanding, Christian, and members of the ONE TRUE CHURCH as they believe, but this does not make them a majority in the world or country, nor entitle them to a monopoly on power or morality.
In Utah, where some places in the state (like downtown Salt Lake and here in Moab) are mostly gentile (Yes, Jews here can finally enjoy being gentiles too), the rest of Utah is essentially a Mormon prison camp. Join or leave, but don't expect to gain any acceptance without your donations and obedience. There are progressive Mormons to be sure, and their courage is to be praised, but the group is mostly an economic convenience, and therefore is a political one having very little to do with actual religion. So this is really not a religious matter, since the real Mormon god is money.
Mitt is simply expressing his love for his god, but it is a political act which he cannot separate from true faith. Mormonism, the quintessential American invention (after the Barbie doll, Hula Hoop, and trickle-down economics) began as an almost communistic group, and when that failed became reactionary and rabidly capitalistic, much like some Cuban immigrants who are rabidly right wing. For both, the pendulum swung wildly the other way and has not righted, or rather "lefted" itself yet. The Mormons are still suffering from severe xenophobia, which goes very well with the sickness known as conservatism. They were booted out of every place they tried to overrun and take over until they found the barren badlands of Utah, and welcoming seagulls on a useless lake. The crowds of angry peasants with pitchforks were finally absent, "Thank the Lard!" Then came the gentile gold miners, their friends the whores, their favorite pastime, drinking, and the fun of Utah political corruption began when the Mo's discovered that other people had money to steal and soft brains to probe too.
Sadly the Mormons can't quite escape the nineteenth century. They may need another hundred years or so to actually enter the twentieth. Mainstream, no, backwater, yes. Mitt simply does not know any better. He has been trained since birth not to think. What better credentials exist for being a card carrying conservative?
I was a Mormon the first 30 years of my life. I was a Mormon missionary. I studied the doctrines and history in depth. I know it.
My problem with having a Mormon in the White House, is that despite his assurances to the contrary, he will be obedient to whatever position the church's prophet or one of the 12 apostles proclaim. They are considered living oracles of God, and their official words are considered scripture - holding equal weight with the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price (their 4 books of scripture). If what the leaders say contradict any of these books, the leaders' word take precedence because they are proclaiming God's will for our time.
The church instituted a doctrine of infallability in 1890 when they abandoned polygamy. The 4th Mormon prophet, Wilford Woodruff, knew the church had to abandon it or all of it's leaders would be jailed, and all church property would be confiscated by the feds... But he also knew the founding prophet had stated that polygamy was an eternal practice, and that God was restoring it to his people, never to be taken from the earth again. Fearing a mass exodus, he had to reassure the people that this was the right thing to do (and nevertheless, a moderate sized exodus ensued anyway, which is why we still have polygamous groups in Utah, Arizona and Mexico today).
Anyway, he issued what is now known as the Manifesto. And that document states that God would not allow him or any other man to lead the Mormon people astary. That God would remove any Mormon president out of his place before he would allow him to lead the people astray. Mormon presidents are president for life, so the belief came to be that God would simply kill a prophet before he would allow him to mislead the church. This manifesto was canonized by the church and included in the Doctrine and Covenants, which is a scripture book detailing the government of God's modern kingdom.
Mormons today simply do not believe their church leaders can teach them false beliefs. They truly believe the LDS prophet speaks to God just as we all speak to others day in and day out...
Now, Mormons cannot attend the Temple without first proclaiming their obedience to the teachings of the prophet, and their complete belief that the prophet is a prophet.
Ignore any statement he makes that he will not allow the church or it's leaders to influence him. IF he truly is a believer in Mormonism, and he is, he has pledged complete obedience to God's mouthpiece on earth. If he's wearing the temple garments, he is in complete submission to them.
I don't want the Mormon prophet, Gordon B. Hinkley, having that kind of power of persuasion over anyone sitting in the Oval office.
As a former Mormon who loves my Mormon family, but could not accept their homophobia..... I don't want that influence in the White House either..
If religion is valid, and God is real, and the USA is a religious country, can anyone tell me what are the rules for Presidential sucession after the Rapture?
Who is going to represent the USA to the "Jesus of Utah" to save it from Armageadon?
you would think such a religious country as the USA would have contingency plans in place for government representation of the remaining heathens
David Koresh for President!!
Read Leaving the Saints by Martha Beck, a former Professor at BYU and a Harvard graduate. It is a very readable non-fiction book depicting her experience with the Mormon church. Then picture a President that has not been inquisitive enough to question these beliefs. The religious right has damaged the US in significant ways, and Romney's actions would no doubt be affected by his beliefs as anyone's would be. Romney has already changed his stands on issues such as abortion for political reasons for this campaign from his stands when he was Massachusetts governor.
Ditto that. Thanks, aquietman.
Well Chuch the Canuck, after the Prez is the Veep, then Speaker of the House. There are even a few after that, and I recall the Constitution lays out several, and perhaps they have added to the Constitution's list.
Thanks for the info aquietman.
Yes, aquietman, I concur with many here. Thank you for the insight. It gives us a completely different perspective.
During my senior year of high school I was "written-up" for reciting the First Amendment to my homeroom teacher, who was trying to force me to say the pledge of allegiance. I won that argument("Listen lady, if you try to make me say that I live under God I'll sue your pants off.") I'd read it again for Mitt, but I'm afraid he'd whip out his pain ray... ouch!
I do not believe that progressives are going to help their cause by constantly making fun of religion, especially the Christian religion. I agree that sometimes it seems that we are asked to vote for a preacher rather than a president, but like it or not, religion is here to stay, as well as athesim. The workable solution is to keep religion or lack of it where it belongs----in the the churches and homes. Obviously the last seven years show the utter stupidity of mixing religion and government as it is ruination for both and the founding fathers knew it as they had seen its terrible results in England. We have to learn to live and let live in this nation and stop all these divisive issues or we will never get going again.
All this talk about Mitt Romney (who the hell names a kid "Mitt"?!) is just a distraction. I am more concerned with the Mittster's determination to keep Guantanamo open, the Patriot Act in force, Habeus Corpus suspended, the "war on terror" going, and basically affirm all the screwiness of Bushco for the past 8 years.
Let Mitt wear his super-secret, protects you from everything in this life and the next undies, go to his super-secret rites and ceremonies in the Mormon Temple--kind of reminds me of the Masonic Lodge, and have the Mormon Tabernacle Choir perform at the Whitehouse. Just keep this political chameleon away from the levers of power that's all.
I know this is a stretch; but, he said something about if he became "fortunate enough to become president". If a true believer thinks that good things happen from the grace of God, then it would stand to reason he believe he would become president from the grace of God. Sort of a manifest destiny. So who does he answer to? My gut says the concept of "fortunate enough to become president" smells of personal glory as well, opposed to say, fortunate enough to serve the american people.
Sorry, I'm just having some fun, however I would not vote for someone who made it illegal to not have health insurance.
aquietman December 7th, 2007 8:20 pm I've heard similar things from other ex-mormons.
canuckchuck December 7th, 2007 9:11 pm: very funny
Yesterday on AltNet, they published an article about the Church of the SubNormal. Its beliefs seemed at least as rational as those of Tom Cruise or Mitt Romney.
If I ever get a spare 30 bucks, maybe I'll join. That way, I can join the majority of citizens who seem to think it's better to have some sort of religion rather then depend on the brain their god thought they might need.
Of course, the IRS refuses to recognize this church and the $30 is non-deductible, even tho each new member gets to choose a religious title upon joining.
Which sounds better? The Grand Wholly Deaconess or the Great Sanctified Beatitude? I can change my name too if I want. Sounds like a lot more fun then salaaming five times a day or lighting candles every Friday evening.
Or even ponying up 10% to the temple ever week or month like Mitt does...
Correction, that's the Church of the SubGenius. The article was titled 'Are you Abnormal?'
I simply edited it and came up with a different name and title.
Probably because I am both...
Anyone notice that it is not the Democrats calling for the theocracy? Hmmm... So, if you don't want a religious takeover of government, maybe you should support Democrats? Just a thought...
As a 80 year old, born and raised as a Mormon, I share the concern expressed by others that anyone subservient to the dictates of that church not be elected President.
Mormons by and large are honest, hardworking. family loving people. That is true of course of the great majority of everyone living in this country. But the Mormon adds something more, especially in those small insular enclaves spread around Utah and Idaho. They are xenophobic with almost a pathological rejection of those that do not share, or even question, their beliefs and with 100% reliance on the word and directives of the church authorities.
If anything could be worse than the 'flat earth' messianic religious fundamentalism of George Bush it would Mitt Romney.
I do not remember who said 'separation of church and state', where? Bill of Rights, Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the the exercise thereof;...
That's it. I am what I am , nobodys business, and why should anyone give a da@n?
Mitt brought JFK into his speech, he said 50 years ago JFK...., try 57 years ago. What was the purpose of the 'Religion Speech'?
I frankly get tired of the atheist rhetoric of believing in magic and unicorns and such. You are what you are no need to disrespect others that have religious beliefs, over the top, unecessary.
This was so not needed to prove whatever it was he was trying to prove. Waste of time.
I love 'the tolerant' religious people who hate atheists, or tag Islam as 'the religion of 9/11 hijackers'. What a bunch of two-faced neanderthals. As a 'practicing' atheist I guess I should be glad it wasn't white working class atheists who hijacked the planes so Big Brother Neanderthal couldn't tag 'people like me' as having 'the thought complex of 9/11 hijackers'. Juan Cole highlights the hypocrisy of contemporary definitions of 'tolerance' in America once again. Thank you.
"Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today, Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do, nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too, Imagine all the people, living life in peace." - John Lennon
Of course imagining/realizing that there's no heaven or hell, or god, or that nations and religions are psychological creations forces you to come to face to face with the everyday power and class relations of a society that forces you to live in the box that you can afford, live by the rules of status and hierarchy meted out through corporate price controls, centrally planned inequality, and fight for a place in the jungle at the bottom of 'the global labor market'. It would force you to come to grips with the Pharaonic logic of building buildings to hold the 'unclean' down and giving them drugs (called religion) to calm them down that still operates through our capitalist elaboration of Athenian democracy that was built on the backs of slaves and colonial occupations. It would force people to come to grips with the all-too-human 'holy scriptures' which for all we know weren't even accurate accounts of some poor guy fed up with the bullshit. After all, modern day Christianity has never reconciled itself to the fact that perhaps half of early chrstianity did not believe in Jesus's divinity. God forbid.
"Aint it funny how the factory doors close
Round the time that the school doors close
Round the time that the doors of the jail cells
Open up to greet you like the reaper."
-Rage Against the Machine
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/r/rage+against+the+machine/ashes+in+the+fall_20113418.html
The demographics of Iowa and New Hampshire determine the public policy of the nation. Hell of a political system. We should give ourselves a pat on the back. Before it's too late.
Thank you, Juan Cole.
Religion has always been a force for self-justified evil, and I expect it always will be.
Christopher Hitchens is right.