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Romney: Some Beliefs Are More Equal than Others
Mitt Romney's speech in Texas on Thursday was supposed to be an attempt to fend off religious bigotry. Instead, it betrays some prejudices of its own (against secular people), and seems to provoke others to bigotted statements. It has been likened to the speech of John F. Kennedy on his Catholicism. But we knew John F. Kennedy, and Mitt Romney is no John F. Kennedy. Kennedy strongly affirmed the separation of religion and state. Romney wants to dragoon us into a soft theocracy (not as a Mormon but as a Republican allied to the Pat Robertsons of the world). Kennedy wanted to be accepted as an American by other Americans. Romney wants to be accepted as a conservative Christian by other conservative Christians.
This conundrum is the price the Republican Party is paying for pandering to the religious Right. Can a secular person even win the Republican nomination any more? If you make yourself captive of the Protestant Right, then you will discover that they believe Mormons are heretics. The Republican Party has established its own litmus test, and since it has been a dominant party in recent years, we've all been affected by it. Romney's plight in finding it hard to be accepted by that constituency mirrors the plight of secular and unchurched Americans, on whom the very people Romney is sucking up to want to impose their narrow and sectarian values.
The unsavory aspects of this entire discourse are apparent in the op-ed of Naomi Schaeffer Riley for the Wall Street Journal. While she depicts Mormons in a positive light, she displays the most gut-wrenching bigotry toward Muslims. She writes:
' A recent Pew poll shows that only 53% of Americans have a favorable opinion of Mormons. That's roughly the same percentage who feel that way toward Muslims. By contrast, more than three-quarters of Americans have a favorable opinion of Jews and Catholics. Whatever the validity of such judgments, one has to wonder: Why does a faith professed by the 9/11 hijackers rank alongside that of a peaceful, productive, highly educated religious group founded within our own borders?'
I just wanted literally to puke on my living room carpet when I read this bilge. Islam is not 'the faith professed by 9/11 hijackers.' Islam is the religion of probably 1.3 billion persons, a fifth of humankind, which will probably be a third of humankind by 2050. Islam existed for 1400 years before the 9/11 hijackers, and will exist for a very long time after them. Riley has engaged in the most visceral sort of smear, associating all Muslims with the tiny, extremist al-Qaeda cult.
We could play this game with any human group. Some Catholics were responsible for the Inquisition. Shall we blame Catholicism for that, or all Catholics? Of course not. Jewish Zionists expelled hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians from their homes in 1948. Is that Judaism's fault or that of Jews in general? Of course not.
She goes on to further stick her foot in her mouth by complaining that she heard conservative Christians call Mormonism 'the fourth Abrahamic religion' (alongside Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and complains that they compared a Muslim belief she considers 'wacky' to Mormon stories. It is all right for her to call folk Islamic motifs wacky, mind you. She's only interested in being fair to Mormons, not to Muslims. Mormons are good people, but some of their forebears were also involved in violence in the 19th century of a sort that other Americans viewed as terrorism.
Riley's remarks exemplify the problems with Romney's speech, which demands fairness for his group but not for, e.g., secularists.
Thus, he says:
"In John Adams' words: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. ... Our Constitution," he said, "was made for a moral and religious people." Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom."
What Romney omits is that many of the "religious people" among the founding fathers were Deists, who did not believe in revelation or miracles or divine intervention in human affairs. Thomas Jefferson used to sit in the White House in the evening with scissors and cut the miracle stories out of the Gospels so as to end up with a reasoned story about Jesus of Nazareth, befitting the Enlightenment.
Some Founding Fathers were Christians, some were not, at least not in any sense that would be recognized by today's Religious Right. Jefferson believe that most Americans would end up Unitarians.
As for the insistence that you need religion for political freedom, that is silly. Organized religion has many virtues, but pushing for political liberty is seldom among them. Religion is about controlling people. No religiously based state has ever provided genuine democratic governance. You want religion in politics, go to Iran.
Liberty can survive religion, especially a multiplicity of religions within the nation. Because that way there is not a central faith that imposes itself on everyone, as Catholicism used to in Ireland or Buddhism used to in Tibet. But organized religion would never ever have produced the First Amendment to the US constitution, and the 19th century popes considered it ridiculous that the state should treat false religions as equal to the True Faith.
Deists, freethinkers and Freemasons--the kind of people that Romney was complaining about-- produced the First Amendment. When Tom Jefferson tried out an earlier version of it in Virginia, some of the members of the Virginia assembly actually complained that freedom of religion would allow the practice of Islam in the US. Jefferson's response to that kind of bigotry was that other people believing in other religions did not pick his pocket or break his leg, so why should he care how they worshipped? And that's all Romney had to say. But he did not want to say that. Romney said the opposite. He implied that is is actively bad for a democracy if people are unbelievers or if there is a strict separation of religion and state.
We know the Founding Fathers and Romney is no founding father.
By Romney's definition of freedom, Sweden and France, where 50% and 40% of the population, respectively, does not believe in God, cannot have a proper democracy. But of course Swedish democracy is in many respects superior to that in the United States.
The text of Mitt Romney's sermon is here.
Romney says:
' But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It's as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America-the religion of secularism. They are wrong. '
Look, the reason that Americans took religion out of the public sphere was because the religious kept fighting with each other in the most vicious way. We had violence between Catholics and Protestants in schools in the 19th century because religion was in the public schools, and therefore each branch of Christianity wanted to dominate and control it. You take religion out of the schools, suddenly people stop fighting about it.
People like Romney who want to put religion back into the public sphere are just going to cause a lot of trouble. 14% of Americans don't believe in God. Another 5% belong to minority religions (and both categories are rapidly growing). That nearly 20% doesn't necessarily want sectarian Christian symbols in public schools. Even a lot of the 80% that are some kind of Christian don't belong to a church and aren't necessarily orthodox in their views.
So Romney's so-called plea for tolerance is actually a plea for the privileging of religion in American public life. He just wants his religion to share in that privilege that he wants to install. Ironically, the very religious pluralism of the United States, which he appears to praise, will stand in the way of his project.
Juan Cole teaches Middle Eastern and South Asian history at the University of Michigan. His most recent book Napoleon's Egypt: Invading the Middle East (New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2007) has just been published. He has appeared widely on television, radio and on op-ed pages as a commentator on Middle East affairs, and has a regular column at Salon.com. He has written, edited, or translated 14 books and has authored 60 journal articles.
© 2007 Juan Cole
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67 Comments so far
Show AllSounds like Romney made a plea to a definiable interest group (right wing conservative christians).
If Hillary made a direct plea for votes from black people would the author get upset because she was excluding hispanics or asians?
This article started out so well, bringing up a really fascinating delimna that Mitt Romney brings to American politics, but then quickly degenerates to the now typical American "us - them" bashing.
What is it with America? You must be so incredibly divided, angry and full of mistrust of each other that you are no longer able to have reasoned debate.
This applies not only to religious people but also those who seem to hold reason up as a creed. A creed which you no longer are able to follow because of your anger.
Mormons are often criticized because many people can clearly see the Morman system of religion was MADE UP by a man to serve his own wants. Because this was done in realitively recent times the process is pretty clear to us. I have often wondered why the same logic is not applied to all the others, especially with all the crazed teachings of the Christian and Muslim constructs that are apparently lifted nearly whole from Pagan practice. I believe Myth is important to humanity as a teaching tool but when we are offered the outer Mysteries as being the complete truth without an opportunity to study the inner ones, it seems we are being told half truths. Personally, I was raised to understand that half-truths are the same as lies. For myself, I want to seek as much of the Mystery as it is possible for me to see.
Veteran '66-68
Religious God Fearing Christians; code words for greedy, selfish, heartless advocates of capital punishment and war.
From my perspective Romney looks like he could get the nomination, he has tons of personal money and an extended beautiful family that will go over big with the voters.
It certainly looks like the Republican standard bearer, whoever it is, will be another delusional religious fanatic who talks directly with Jesus.
Either Huck Finn or Romney will begin to pick up momentum now that Rudy's three marriages are not sitting well with the religious pig farmers in Iowa.
If we progressives refuse to stand united against these theologian hypocrites we could soon be banning Darwin's Origin of Species from our school libraries, replaced with leather bound gold trimmed theoretical books on Intelligent Design.
When the first colonial churches fell apart because the money in raping America could not compete with being good little children inside the fort, Americans invented the public school to make sure that all the strangers had a common fund of knowledge (meaning, behavioral training no longer enforced by churches). Now the public schools have become prisons (they even LOOK like prisons or mental wards) and intellectual failures, it seems we're following good ol' circular christian history to turn around, going in circles again (to avoid facing reality), and try to impose good ol' Jeeziz again....Well like it or not the US is going to have to face the fact that the rest of the world is not a colony anymore, and that there's no using religion to feel good about raping it for progress...Kucinich is the only one who comes even CLOSE to where we really are, and so like the best minds in the old colonies, he is banished to the "wilderness"....
Huckabee endorsed by the NH NEA organization?
Between him and Mitt, kiss off separation between Church and State. Yes, I listened to Romney's slick and slippery speech. JFK he is not and never will be and I and conclude that between these two GOP sweethearts filled with their own self righteousness no doubt "Praise Jesus, Our Savior" will eventually commence any official government function.
After all, we are a Christian Nation - even if all of us are not.
As much as I dislike Guiliani who was headed for the refuse heap of failed politicians before 9/11 rescued him - he does start to appear as the best of a really bad lot. And the bastard might even win!
What ever did all those women he screwed see in this comb over, lisping, harsh and disagreeable schmuck?
Actually irrelevant since at the polls I must really decide if substantially bigoted America is ready to accept a woman or a black man as President. Maybe Edwards will rescue us before then.
He's got a just mild enough Southern accent.
Maybe Richardson or Obama as VP to provide entrance to the brown and black people among us who don't wear their personal faith as a battle flag.
Jesus hasn't exactly done a lot of the Savior stuff for this planet so far and Allah is likely amused by the antics of some of his believers who want to execute a woman for permitted her 7 year old students to name a teddy bear after the Prophet. Teddy bears are loved by children the world over - I would call that a compliment.
aquietman, above, did a very good job explaining why Mormons (if true to the faith) owe their allegiance of beliefs and actions to the Latter Day Saints' President, or Prophet, because of the doctrine of infallability.
A similar doctrine of infallability exists concerning pronouncements of the Pope in the Catholic Church, and we already now have FIVE OUT OF NINE Justices on our Supreme Court who are Catholic, with Roberts and Alito being the two most recent additions.
Did you know that a Republican, George W. Bush, created this unbelievable theocratic majority for you? Can anyone understand why your children and grandchildren might need a Democratic president now?
I get offended when an article says things like this:
"While she depicts Mormons in a positive light, she displays the most gut-wrenching bigotry toward Muslims. She writes:
' A recent Pew poll shows that only 53% of Americans have a favorable opinion of Mormons. That's roughly the same percentage who feel that way toward Muslims. By contrast, more than three-quarters of Americans have a favorable opinion of Jews and Catholics. Whatever the validity of such judgments, one has to wonder: Why does a faith professed by the 9/11 hijackers rank alongside that of a peaceful, productive, highly educated religious group founded within our own borders?'
"I just wanted literally to puke on my living room carpet when I read this bilge. Islam is not 'the faith professed by 9/11 hijackers.' Islam is the religion of probably 1.3 billion persons, a fifth of humankind, which will probably be a third of humankind by 2050. Islam existed for 1400 years before the 9/11 hijackers, and will exist for a very long time after them. Riley has engaged in the most visceral sort of smear, associating all Muslims with the tiny, extremist al-Qaeda cult.
We could play this game with any human group. Some Catholics were responsible for the Inquisition. Shall we blame Catholicism for that, or all Catholics? Of course not. Jewish Zionists expelled hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians from their homes in 1948. Is that Judaism's fault or that of Jews in general? Of course not."
1st off the author's writing style is unprofessional and frankly, wrong. This is the kind of writing I'd expect to hear from Ann Coulter. Islam WAS the faith professed by the 9/11 hijackers, why deny that? The fact that that religion is growing so quickly should, in my opinion, cause some discomfort with liberal thinkers everywhere. To say that the author of the Wall Street Journal op-ed is displaying "gut-wrenching bigotry" should be an insult to people who have been called a racial slur, been harassed sexually or because of their orientation or who have been the vitims of ethnic cleansing - that is gut-wrenching bigotry, as opposed to the Wall Street Journal author's questioning of the equal legitimacy of Mormanism and Islam. That's just asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. (for a detailed examination of this go to: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=523054)
Then there is the "game" that the author plays with "any human group". Should we blame Catholicism for the inquisition? Yes! Is that Judaism's fault? Yes! Both of these groups' religious texts required the actions that the followers took. The fact that the Jews of Isreal are doing this in modern times makes it just the more internally consistent in my opinion. Same as the Muslim 9/11 hijackers. I don't LIKE it but it is consistent with their beliefs. According to the Old Testament, the Israelites/Jews, are the chosen people of God (doesn't get much better than that), and they are divinely warranted to live in the land of Isreal and kick anybody else in the head who thinks they shouldn't (God's will...). They are putting their religion into practice - the whole religion, not just the parts that make for nice ecumenical sound bites. And here's where the author betrays a certain bias, because I do not think you "could play this game with any human group". The author says any human group and then picks only 2 groups, both religious. Why? I do not think you could play this game with the Ba'hai, or Secular Humanists, or Unitarian Universalists, or Atheists, or Libertarians, or Eskimos, or (keep going for probably 20 more that I could think of without doing a whit of research). I don't know the religion for which the author has a soft spot, or whether its just the irrational and unquestioned respect for belief itself, but it causes the author to make some really serious errors of judgement.
Call a spade a spade and don't back away - isn't that what journalism is supposed to be about?
God? No Problem! But Do You Believe in Evil & Devils, Or Ignorance & Insanity?
Diary Entry by Jay Janson [EDIT]
Belief, in one of the various Gods, born thousands of years ago in the Middle East is fine. OK. But does this or that U.S. presidential candidate believe in the Devil and the concept of Evil as a force in itself, apart from actions of men stemming from ignorance, fear, superstition and various forms of insanity? A Chief of covert CIA and the nuclear option, who believes in a metaphysical force called Evil, is truly frightening
::::::::
Belief, in one of the various Gods, born thousands of years ago in the Middle East is fine. OK. But does this or that U.S. presidential candidate believe in the Devil and the concept of Evil as a force in itself, apart from actions of men stemming from ignorance, fear, superstition and various forms of insanity?
The scriptures written more than one, two or three thousands of years ago by scribes in the desert, the Bible for instance, all contain references of God conversing with the Devil. Recent U.S. presidents have often mentioned the existence of Evil in the world as a self-propelling power intent on harming us. Why is this kind of talk or thinking not considered mentally unbalanced or at least wierd?
Therein lies the danger of unbalanced judgment by whoever becomes the next most powerful individual in the world. The President exercises personal control over secret orders to the CIA, an organization exempt from all national and international laws during its covert actions. As Commander in Chief, he oversees an arsenal of tens of thousands of atom and hydrogen bombs, and we often hear mention of something called ' the nuclear option being on the table'.
Seeing the Devil or some imagined or prophesized metaphysical force, instead of seeing the effects of human ignorance, fear, hunger, injustice, socially inculcated materialism and cases of power driven insanity, is truly worrisome for us non-believers in the Devil and non-believers in an independent force vaguely called Evil!
P.S. Native American noble spirituality is far removed from traditions born in Palestine emphasizing a fearful original cause. Most Native American nations worship(ed) a Great Spirit wondrously manifested in sky, earth and water to be noticed most dramatically in the eyes of all creatures. The religions, which surpass the Mid East in devil belief and devil worship, are to be found in the darkest corners of human history and no longer exist there. Why fore do Americans countenance such ancient and frightening beliefs here in modern space age scientific surroundings?
I agree with bhartman03 that the author needs to go back to school and learn how to write (i.e. think).
Nevertheless, he did focus in on a very interesting subject here, though his vision is a bit blurred.
Romney - courting the christian right wing of the Republican party?
Why? Well because the typical evangelical thinks Mormonism is a cult. No evanglical would ever vote for Romney. No way not a chance. Probably the majority of informed Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians.... would avoid him as well.
acemoab and aquietman know what they are talking about and mainstream christianity knows Mormonism is a cult.
So what definiable interest group within the Republican party (Besides the state of Utah) supports Romney?
Very interesting. Why is the Republican party running three stooges? (Mitt, Huck, and Juli)
Is there no one else in all of Republican America that is willing to step up to the plate and run against a black guy and a woman?
Very interesting!
What is even more ironic about this situation is that I think JohnFreeman (above) states the polite secular humanist point of view nicely - that Mormonism is just another flavour of "religion".
The more radical Democrat (to many above to list) would substitute "cult" for "religion".
Ironically then you have radical democrats and right wing evangelicals with the same general opinion of Romney.
Why at such a critical moment in America's history is there such slim pickings???
There must be a logical answer to this question out there somewhere.
My father once accused me of being angry at god.
I put it this way: My guy is Peter Pan
God vs. Peter Pan
You see I hate neither. However! I am offended by any person or group of people that feel that the "belief" in either character entitles them to conquer, dominate, murder, rape, torture or in any other manner repress any other individual or group of people that (does or doesn't) find it a necessary life function to form an opinion on either God or Peter Pan
I just pray to Peter Pan that the masses will wake the #@*%up.
Romney's speech was intended to convince the BARN (born again redneck) voters that he is a right wing theocrat on par with Bush, Robertson, Dobson, the late Falwell and, for that matter, Ayatollah Khameni and Mullah Omar. It was very different from JFK's speech, which was intended to (and did) convince people that he respected the Constitution and the principle of secular government enshrined in the Establishment Clause. Romney wanted to convince the the GOP's (God's Own Party) base that he could be relied upon to bash fags, deny women safe abortions, teach creationism and marginalize those of other faiths. Huckabee, as an ordained Southern Baptist minister, has the equivalent of board certification in trailer-park theology, while many of the faithful are worried about Romney's bona fides. His speech may or may not have convinced them, but he certainly convinced me.
For tech2 and bhartman 03
1. We don't blame Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, atheists, and Mormonism for some of their adherents beliefs. Thats Logic 101. If you blame the totality of a label for people you are just as intolerant as Romney is when he baits the GOP base in saying "Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom." As Cole points out, most of the founding fathers were the very freemasons and freethinkers that most of these religions gladly persecuted for heresy for hundreds of years. Why do you think Baptists made so many 'confessions'? Who were they 'confessing' to? A: The Church of England that was persecuting them for outrageous beliefs like so:
"The King is a mortal man, and not God, therefore he hath no power over the mortal soul of his subjects to make laws and ordinances for them and to set spiritual Lords over them".- Thomas Helwys
The fact that these early Baptists were on the opposite end of the balance of power and could see the tyranny of state religion doesn't make it OK for Baptists today, or any other religion, to impose state religion on the rest of America, or suggest that people WOULD NOT BE FREE without religion. There would still be organized dissent without religion. Religions are not the only group of organized dissenters in American society, nor has that ever been true. Sam Adams and the first revolutionaries plotted revolution over drinks at the pubs in New England. They were not teetotalers.
And you should be outraged that the WSJ calls Islam 'the religion of the 9/11 hijackers', not justify the WSJ editorialist for being a neanderthal.
2. "I agree with bhartman03 that the author needs to go back to school and learn how to write (i.e. think)". Juan Cole has a Ph.D. and teaches history at the University of Michigan.
Belief rots the mind. Things are either so or not.
"The problem is not with Christianity, the problem is that too few have done it!"-G.K. Chesterton
2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning.
When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me,"
He was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any others who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.
As a committed Christian of The Beatitudes, I have more in common with Tom Paine, than any of the politically religious running for president:
"Soon after I had published the pamphlet "Common Sense" [on Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion... The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."-Tom Paine
John Lennon got it right:
"That what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong…Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me...
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends...I believe that as soon as people want peace in the world they can have it. The only trouble is they are not aware they can get it........You're just left with yourself all the time, whatever you do anyway. You've got to get down to your own God in your own temple. It's all down to you, mate.......All we are saying is give peace a chance.......All you need is love.......Imagine all the people living life in peace.......You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one.......Reality leaves a lot to the imagination."-john lennon
"Love is not the starving of whole populations. Love is not the bombardment of open cities. Love is not killing......Our manifesto is the Sermon on the Mount, which means that we will try to be peacemakers." -Dorothy Day
Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor
Http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu"
EILEEN FLEMING -- Thank you, and nice web site and wonderful stand for humanity aware.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
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I read most every article and comment posted on Common Dreams but have only recently registered and have only posted once. However, I read mcthfg's nonsensical, bigoted comment on Catholicism and could not help but reply.
Fr. John Dear, a Jesuit priest, has been arrested over 75 times for civil disobedience. Right now he's facing 30 days in jail and a $5,000 fine for a sit-in at the office of New Mexico's Sen. Domenici.
Catholic nuns Ardeth Platte, Carol Gilber, and Jackie Hudson were arrested back in 02 for an act of civil disobedience at a Colorado missile silo in protest of the war on Afghanistan. They were sentenced in 03 and their sentences ranged from 30-41 months in prison.
Evil people, right mcthfg? Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE CATHOLICS! WHY ELSE?
On December 2, many Catholics reflected on the deaths twenty seven years ago of the murders of Sister Ita Ford, Sister Maura Clarke Sister Dorothy Kazel, and Jean Donovan by death squads trained at the US's own School of Americas. They were killed for no other reason than supporting the oppressed Salvadoran poor. Their murders were preceded by that of Archbishop Oscar Romero (killed for the same reason) and followed by the murders of six Jesuits in 1989 (again, for the same reason). Just last month, Fr. Ray Burgeois (who's also spent time in prison) led twenty thousand people in protest at what was formally the SOA (now it's called Ft. Benning). He leads this protest every year. Many Catholics (as well as non-Catholics of course) have been arrested at this protest. Two of the most memorable are the nun sisters, the 88 year old Sr. Dorothy Hennessey and the 68 year old Sr Gwen Hennessey, who both served 6 month sentences in federal prison.
Bastards, all of them, no?
Fr. Daniel Berrigan, another Jesuit, has spent years in prison and has been arrested innumerable times. He and his late brother Philip (arrested just as many times), spent time on the FBI's ten most wanted list for their anti-draft actions during the Vietnam war. Howard Zinn, who authored the famous A People's History of the United States, said of Philip, "Mr. Berrigan was one of the great Americans of our time." Surely, Zinn must be a fool, because Berrigan was a Catholic all his life, and we all know how bad each and every single of them are, don't we mcthfg?
December 8 was the anniversary of the death of Fr. Bill O'Donnell, who died in 2003. Before his death at 73, he was arrested 250 times for acts of civil disobedience.
In October, the Franciscan priest Fr. Louis Vitale and the Jesuit Fr. Steve Kelly were sentenced to five months in prison for attempting to deliver a letter to Major General Barbara Fast at Fort Huachuca, Arizona. These are Catholics who have been on the front line on the anti-war movement. Of course, this doesn't matter. They deserve this arrest simply for being part of the evil Romish church.
Sr. Dorothy Stang was murdered in Brazil in 2005 for environmental activism. One more papist down.
eileen fleming quoted another Dorothy, the late great Dorothy Day, a wonderful Catholic convert who was arrested numerous times for her promotion of peace.
I feel like listing more and more similar Catholics, but I doubt any sort of good reason will poke a hole in your ignorance fueled hatred of Catholicism mcthfg, so I might as well just stop there.
mcthfg,
I forgot to add how foolish it is for you to blame ALL CATHOLICS for the Inquisition, when many Catholics, including St. Ignatius Loyola and St. Theresa of Avila, were persecuted and imprisoned by it! Are you under the impression that they supported their persecution?
You're a bigot mcthfg, and I have no idea what you're doing in the progressive movement. Before you conclude that I must be some sort of a religious fanatic, let me state than I am a member of both the ACLU and AU. I do not support theocracy. I am not big on religion. I'm also not big on generalizations, and so I recognize that Catholicism is a diverse group full of many varying opinions. Your attacks on Catholics as a group are utterly irrational. Wonderful atheists like Noam Chomsky have praised Catholics such as the late Oscar Romero.
Not being religious doesn't mean you have to hate religion mcthfg.