Bush was dead wrong about Iraq. Now he would like us to trust his gut feeling about Iran, while 16 US intelligence agencies disagree with him.

Gee, who should we believe?

Maybe, just maybe, the people in those 16 agencies care enough to not roll over and lie for a corrupt administration. Maybe, maybe just maybe, some of them believe that we shouldn't go to war for no reason. That would be lovely

If Article I Sections 2 and 3;
And Article II Section 4;
weren't placed in the US Constitution specifically for out-of-control presidential regimes like this one, then, for crying out loud, what good is the constitution?

The people who made sure the unclassified NIE got out have done this country a tremendous service. I don't subscribe to the partisan nonsense that the right is throwing around. These people are genuinly concerned about the course of this country and did the right thing to force this government back from another disastrous course.

nothing is different..nothing has changed..it has always been the fault of the c.i.a,since hoover and his boy-wonder george bush sr.like batman and robin they single-handedly pushed america down the yellow brick road of all that is fascist and completely unamerican...employing a continuous parade of nabobian good ole boys in the club,to carry out their always dirty deeds.the f.b.i. has always been the tamer more legitimate branch of u.s. espionage..and the c.i.a. the wildly self-serving greedy branch of spying,hell-bent on making every outcome serve their own voracious,lusty,twisted and evil appetites,with no thought or care of what is truly right,for the greater good of our citizens or our nation.

You see, Bush was right about Iraq and WMD

he was also right about Iraq and AQ

He was right about Musharraf and democracy

He was right about Putin and democracy

He was right about not confronting Saudi and the hijackers

Everybody else is wrong.....

Remember way back in 2000, when one of the neocons(was it Rove?) announced that they would create their own reality, redefine reality, and while we're all busy trying to analyze and understand it, they'd already be creating a new one, and we'd have to catch up to that one all over again. That's what they're doing. Same old story. Facts, evidence, history, track records...all irrelevant.

If I worked in the US clandestine intelligence service I would do whatever it took to discredit the Republican Party in retaliation for their outing Valerie Plame.

Although the American electorate is unwilling to or incapable of connecting the dots, you can bet that intelligence personnel (friend and foe)worldwide are A+ students when it comes to connecting dots...that is their job.
If one US clandestine agent is outed it doesn't take long for enemy agents to figure out the identity of many other US agents.
The outed agents' partisan preference makes no difference. Some of the US agents linked to Plame will be Democrats and others Republicans. The fact that no Republican from the legislative branch made any motions to prosecute this case should have many Republican agents questioning their partisan preference.
Not to mention the damage done to efforts to recuit new agents. Who wants a clandestine job when you have to worry about the White House betraying you.

Wouldn't a CIA war on Bush be a good thing?

Thanks to the intelligence agencies for being intelligent enough not to allow Bush to start WWIII.

"Wouldn't a CIA war on Bush be a good thing?"

I'm all for a good old fashioned mutiny. They got the guns AND the numbers to create some serious internal blowback.

This is a fight among the ruling class, just like Watergate was. Cheney and his boys want to nuke Iran, and saner heads are trying to prevent it. That's why we're suddenly seeing two versions of reality, instead of just the junta in power's version that we've been seeing for 6 years.
I remember hearing some old African proverb: When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.
The people of Iraq are being trampled. We can only hope that Iran isn't next. And that we aren't on the list somewhere.

Gee, USans, how does it feel to experience nefarious plots against and undermining of your country's government by those sneaky undercover operatives of the nasty old CIA?

I don't actually believe that for one moment, but the irony is too delicious to resist. As a former KGB man, Vladimir Putin must be laughing his head off -- as well he should be.

For a very different take on the subject read Iran Intelligence Report: More Psychological Warfare?

1drees posted this link on another website and it clearly spelled out just how much trouble we are in. I would really like to hear comments on this link. It makes everything else sound like empty noise.

http://artofmentalwarfare.com

The solutions it outlined are nothing new, but maybe what this country needs is another Republican administration to really fuck up things fast to get the publics' attention in a hurry. Can we trust the Democrats to protect our free internet access? Can we trust the Democrats to do anything in the public interest? They haven't come through yet.

the CIA is sworn to defend the USa agianst all enemies, foreign and domestic...I'd be worried if the WEREN'T going after Emperor Bush

This is not a reality-based reality....Trouble is, people with their heads in the sand get their asses kicked....

Remember, Bush Sr. was director of the CIA around the time Reagan was negotiating arms for hostages, the Carter govt. botched a rescue attempt and didn't bother with a second one. It was a botched botch job.

If the CIA is so clean now, can they tell us why we support Columbia with so much money and aid -- and at the same time are the world's greatest consumer of cocaine (according to the CIA world factbook itself)?

If there's any shred of truth to the CIA not giving Bush & Co. a free ride any longer it's because the Bilderbergers (or whoever) have made up their minds and want the Democrats to do their work in '08 instead.

An old adage applies to what passes for the US intelligence community: first time, shame on you, second time, shame on me. It appears as if the "intelligence community" taken the aforementioned to heart and is determined that the blame land squarely in the lap of Dubya & Co.

I guess Bush can get even by outing the entire CIA.

This is a cirdcumstance where the enemy of my enemy is not my friend but, rather, a different face of the enemy. The CIA is just as perversely evil as the neocon Bush adminstration. That the CIA wants things on their terms rather than those of Bushco does not make the CIA any less dangerous--ask the Kennedy and King families.

The neocon war against accurate CIA information goes back at least to the 1975-76 Team B affair. Team A consisted of the CIA officials who created the National Intelligence estimates. Team B consisted of outside experts who "proved" that the NIE was underplaying the Soviet threat. I hate relying on Wikipedia for this stuff, but its article--accuracy and neutrality disputed--at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B says Team B was chaired by Daniel Pipes and advised by, among others, our old friend Paul Wolfowitz! President Ford created it at the urging of Secretary of Defense...Donald Rumsfeld. Team B's "report" went to the media and became gospel. It left out the part where the Soviet Union would collapse in another 15 years.

Iran? Who said anything about them folks?

No, no, no.

"President George W. Bush has urged North Korea to fulfill its pledge to reveal all nuclear programs, in his first direct communication with the reclusive leader of a country he once branded part of an "axis of evil."

Ain' no damn NIEEE on that guy now, ya see, and he plum already got da knowledge, see, on how to build them nuk-u-lar devices. I never said Iran was nuk-i-fying or what not never no how. Nerth Kor-E-ah. Bad folk.

Why does the US need 16 intelligence agencies?

No wonder they all tie their shoelaces together at critical moments.

Now that they seem to have an attack of sanity, let's make the most of it.

maryannsalo December 6th, 2007 3:34 pm -- Why does the US need 16 intelligence agencies?

Well, once upon a time, there was a distinction between foreign and domestic intelligence operations. Then, of course, there's signals intellingence (NSA) with its special requirements for ComCo liasons and, of course, each branch of the military absolutely must have its own 'in-house' intelligence capability. Inevitably, therefore, the need arises for some kind of 'co-ordinating' agency. That was once the responsidbility of the Director of the CIA, but the head of the Homeland Security Department needed someting to justify that new agency. And last, but certainly not least, the regal presidency and his puppetmaster VP have to have groups to oversee and cherrry-pick the stuff they actually want for their own agendas.

I've probably missed a few, but it's increasingly difficult to keep track of it all.

You folks are SO funny! But what else can we do in times like these?

Couple of observation: The CIA didn't write this NIE. I think there were like 16 agencies or something like that involved. I also don't believe the CIA allowed this NIE to be made public over Cheney's objections. They don't have the "juice" as we already know from the manipulation on Iraq NIE's and intel. Nope, I think that General Fallon made this possible. And from that perspective, it becomes clear what this is all about. Fallon has said that a war with Iran is NOT going to happen on his watch. Why, you might ask would he say that? My guess is that he KNOWS that we would lose and that the US military would face a blood bath.

This isn't politics as usual folks. There is an internal fight going on between the administration and the military. And since Congress isn't doing it's job, the military is picking up the slack. And the military is non-partisan. Fallon doesn't give a sh*t about who wins the election. He cares about the military and winning wars. I'm not sure where he stands on the peace thing or wars for oil.

Just some random thoughts......

Peace

Intelligence is a sorely misused word.

There is almost nothing intelligent about the US government. Actually there is nothing, but better to be a little forgiving, because we the people get the government we deserve.

And the "intelligence" agencies are in the business of manufacturing lies, by and large, just to generate fodder for contention and keep everyone away from what matters. Why else would "they" make all this "intelligence" public?

The whole thing is a smokescreen and hardly worth a dozen words of discussion, which is why I stop here.

Let's remember history. An insane, depraved, degenerate Roman emperor called Caligula (remind you of anybody?) carried on like the homicidal maniac he was until the Praetorian guard had to intervene and assassinate the lunatic. The American military (Admiral Fallon) and the intelligence community have now publically announced that they're not going to take any more of Baby Caligula's nonsense. He's standing in some very deep shit.

I've never looked at Powerline before. Odd how the three authors all went to the same college and how one has a little penis next to his name, another an elephant's trunk (a bit phallic?) and the third a little bear or something that looks like it's out of an old horror movie I can't place or recall the name of. Weird.

Just more proof that the Bush Presidency never was and never will have anything to do with Intelligence. On any level......Then, again......hmmmm......If the neocon thugs are forced to abandon their grand plan to Bunkerbust Iran, that will leave them free to take care of some unfinished chores in Venezuela...and maybe Bolivia. Hay Hugo, Evo...
better find a good place to hide. The Empire is on the march again.

It's great that someone dropped the dime on the Idiot in Chief and the Asst. Idiot in Chief. I'm all for that.
But lets keep out eyes on the CIA.

To read the very best book written on the CIA try Norman Mailer's Harlot's Ghost. It a great read and a excellent lowdown on the powers to be.

The military, having realized some time ago that George Wanker Bush has played them for some of the biggest fools in recorded history, has no doubt had a hand in bringing this NIE to light. The Army and Marines have been decimated by the occupation of Iraq. If for no other reason than mere self-preservation they are now pissing on Bush's head and getting away with it.

It would seen that we're witnessing the first revolt of the intelligence community against the plan by Cheney to bomb Iran.

Now that they've stepped forward and told the truth to the American people, perhaps others within the dying administration will choose, like Daniel Ellsberg during the Vietnam tragedy, to step forward with their stories.

Of course, I don't know whether it will matter since we seem to have such a GUTLESS leader in Congress keeping IMPEACHMENT off the table. If any president ever deserved this, it is the present occupier of the White House.

My congressman, Henry Waxman, busies himself with all the wonderful hearings and then does NOTHING to hold these criminals accountable.
###

The Washington Pot wrote that those who opposed the Iraq adventure will utilize this latest press release from the Ministry of Information as a self serving, ironic cudgel against our infidel executive branch. The Pot, in typical top-40 irresponsible journalism, fails to acknowledge class warfare. In this case, as others have said,
it's the SS and the Gestapo in a tug of war.

Open letter to Congress

The Bush Administration's recent refusal to accept the NIE report of findings on Iran is seriously disturbing. Given the administration's past history on Iraq, this recent stand by Mister's Bush and Chaney, offers conclusive evidence of delusional paranoia, and demonstrates a psychotic inability to engage in truth and reality. Such actions show incompetence at best, and/or pathology at worst. Either way, they define a dire situation of immense importance that must be addressed immediately. A vote of "no confidence", for a situation of this magnitude, could only appear patronizing or condescending. Mister's Bush and Chaney must be invited to step down from office or face impeachment, forthwith.
It would be understandable for Congress to be taken aback by this message, but I would site the relevance of taking action when events such as the above stand as glaring warning signals.

It's helpful and comforting to remember that there are some principled and honest government employees who work in the "intelligence" field. They're not all stupid enough to blindly support the Bush regime.

Its good to see the neocon PNAC steamroller is finally running low on steam. The pros in the military, intelligence, NASA... are defying the minders and patronage hacks.

They have better educations and track records than Bush and Cheney, and must wonder how this pair could ever get into the White House without standing in line with the Cub Scouts for a ticket. While its their duty to follow orders, they realize the reckless orders are coming from a radical fringe group that has abused its (stolen) power for illogical and dangerous purposes. They also have seen the unending bloodshed, and how many lives, patriotic careers and great reputations the chickenhawks have frivolously desroyed.

Time to change bandwagons Hillary. Gonna need your track shoes to catch this one, and hope the voters forget you were kissing their neocon wannabe behinds on the last one.

As much as I don't trust the Pentagon, I certainly trust them more than bush. And, in the military may rest our only hope to handcuff these satanic bastards and bring them to justice. I just listened to Perino at the news conference today. She was totally befuddled trying to cover up bush's lies and total incompetence. Look for a new press secretary in the near future. She's already worn out.

Rebel Farmer, what an interesting theory. Why are you focusing on Fallon as the one who leaked the report? It makes sense, as you explained, but do you base your hypothesis on anything else? There's a huge back story here, and I'd feel better knowing more about it.

In any case, you know your democracy has fallen by the wayside when the only institution that effectvely pushes back against a warmongering executive is the military. Bizarre.

"If they so botched up Iraq, Thompson drawled, how on earth could we believe what they have to say about Iran?"

Well Fred, stop and think about it......George T. who received the Bush-badge of "lapdog excellence" is no longer running the CIA. Secondly, there are numerous Military Generals who refuse to follow the idiotic agenda being perpetrated by political neocons that "Iran is an immanent threat" to the United States and the rest of the world.

And last but not least, the United States is financially bankrupt and Communist China, which has been lending us money to continue the war in Iraq, is showing signs of economic decline. Do you think they're going to continue to support our "wars of empire building"?

Since we now get our straight news from Comedians and our laughs from politicians, shouldn't we be voting for the Comedian for President? I know who I'm writing in !

Whatever you do do not read Legacy of Ashes by Timothy Weiner. It is terrible. It pretends to be muckraking when actually it may as well be written by the CIA itself. It actually trusts Richard Helms and doesnt check it against other sources.. John Prados' book The Secret Wars of the CIA is much much better. It is an adult book.

Finally... after logic and reason fled in the October 2002 descent into the run up to Iraq, they have sworn to retreat no more. There is at last a glimmer of hope that, bad as things are, they may not worsen.

Excellent thoughts so far. You have missed a clear probability and it is that the Iranians really were not involved in trying to build a nuke up til 2003. The Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov said that the U.S. information was false. A New York Times article from "unnamed intell and high gov't officials" stated that we based our knowledge about the Iranians attempts to build nukes on notes of meetings, conversations and the contents of a lap top computer. This is a chapter out of the play book of Dick Cheney. He had Scooter Libby (remember him) pass bogus stories about those bad Iraqis to Judith Miller of the NYT to scare hell out of Americans and then quoted the NYT as proof of the danger from the Iraqis. A Russian General put it well;"When we lie,we know we are lying; when you Americans lie, you actually believe it". Get out the strait jackets and start the impeachments! There is a behind the scenes struggle within the military to prevent war. Admiral Fallon called General Petreus an "Ass kissing chickenshit" to his face because of Petreus's willingness to spout the White House message. He has also made a point of issueing military press releases that shoot holes in the constant Bush claim that the Iranians are making the Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFP's) that are used agaisnt our troops. Check out "EFP factory" and you will find a number of CENTCOM releases that counter the lies being put out by the Petraus group. Don't get cynical, get pissed and keep demanding that Congress impeach the top 20.

How can you get the Congress to impeach when they are complicit in the illegal acts?

Come clean, Kim Jong-il.
Come clean, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Come clean, Saddam Hussein.

Saddam?
Saddam?
Come clean, Saddam.

I'm ignorant on this and therefore will ask questions.

Since the respected Wall Street Journal printed this article, what is the likelyhood the other major press and media in our country will follow their lead?

Do any here think that this entire story will be dead by next Monday?

The NIE vs. The LIE.

Is Saddam still hanging around?

Mik
First, learn how to spell. Secondly, why would anyone want to buy up a bunch of worthless mortgage bundles?

Every night 75 million American children and a billion more children around the world go to bed counting on us to keep them safe, to protect the world they live in and will wake up in tomorrow; they count on us because they don't know how to do these things yet themselves; they need time to learn and grow and they need our help in making that time for them; they know we aren't perfect, they know we'll make many mistakes as they do every day, they know sometimes we will face an adversary to powerful or smart for us to overcome or out think, they know there are forces in the universe over which we have no control; they only ask us to do our best and love us for every moment we do.