RE: Arvy December 6th, 2007 3:04 pm

"If you are aware of some singular 'invisible-hand' that invariably determines the formation of geopolitical alliances and the coincident interests upon which they are based, pray elucidate."

Gladly, and here is the link:

http://iamthewitness.com/doc/RothschildsTimeline-filer/frame.htm

After you have looked at that (it will take awhile if you study it carefully & think about it) here is how one portion of their agenda has worked out:

http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf

Thn come back to this thread and see if things look the same. I'd be interested in hearing/seeing/reading if your opinions on numerous matters involving Iran, Isreal, the USA, Zionism, etc. have changed.

dude3 I don't know if it's a misquote or not But I do know many morons don't belive in the Halocaust, but it sure doesn't constitute a reason to go to war!

It's good to know that 2/3 of Israelis stand on the side of peace and justice against the zionist, capitalist, militarist, imperialist beast. The beast is backed into a corner by recent news of its many catastrophic failures. This explains why it declared martial law in the US. The beast is severely wounded and highly vulnerable and dangerous at this point in time.

As for stating the "regime" in Isreal should be 'wiped from the face of the Earth', I would have to agree. I feel the same way about the "regime" we now have in the US. Of interest is polls of the US & Isreal OF THE PEOPLE show an almost numerically equal dis-enchantment with the leadership of their countries. This indicates both countries have been hijacked by neo-CON, religious fundamentalist, Zionist, MIC/MSM, minority, warmongering elements, that completely disregard the will of the majority of their peoples. Mossad & the CIA walk hand in hand, using tactics of assassination, propaganda, & false flag operations to advance their warped agendas. Even more threatening is DHS, headed by dual Isreali/US citizenship holding Michael Chertoff.
Here's a quote from the link below:

"Chertoff, whose name means 'of the devil' in Russian, is attempting to further circumvent Posse Comitatus. He is trying to gain control of law enforcement to ensure that the Department of Homeland Security, which will include the Office of Internal Security, the Office of Political Security, and other agencies to be created after Posse Comitatus is overturned, will have a civilian mechanism to control a militarized law enforcement because they don't want the military to control it."

http://www.lookingglassnews.org/printerfriendly.php?storyid=2067

"if the above poll was given to average iranians, what would the results be?
"

I don't know hom many Iranians you know. Those that I know would certainly not be in favour of an attack on Israel. Ahmadinejad is the most hardline, and even he is not in favour of attacking Israel, not unless Iran is attacked first.

The Israeli and US leadership, on the other hand, has been consistently belligerent and threatening. It is Israel and tbe US who talk openly about bombing Iran. While the most that the hardline president of Iran can manage is 'erasing the zionist regime from the page of history', and a bit of holocaust denial.

And regarding holocaust denial, you'll find that people in non-western countries simply don't care about the holocaust in the same way we do, because they were not responsible, and it has hardly any resonance in their psyche. Why should Iranians care that Germans sent Jews to the gas chamber? We don't really care about the various historic genocides that have occurred in Armenia, Rwanda, Cambodia, China, Russia...I'm just listing off the top of my head really. We might study them, we might even protest the ones which are occurring, like in the Sudan, but at the end of the day, its not our fault (or at least it doesn't seem like it is, although sometimes...) And the fact is, the President of Iran denying the Jewish holocaust is no worse than Israel denying the Armenian holocaust, which it what it is doing right now.

This is from American Jewish Life:
"For years, Turkey has lobbied Jewish groups to stay away from the genocide label, explicitly saying they might be less supportive of Israel. The highest ranks of Turkish officials, including their foreign minister, approached the ADL and others to make their case, and in a fit of fear and realpolitik, the ADL shook hands with Turkey and essentially became accomplices in genocide denial."
http://www.ajlmagazine.com/archivesblog/2007/11/day-holocaust-died.html

So, the case for bombing Iran was that it was building nuclear weapons (and now it isn't), it was threatening Israel (hardly), and the President denied the Jewish holocaust (because he's Iranian, hasn't had he history drilled into his head about that topic as much as we have, and feels that Israel manipulates the holocaust to its own advantage).

Well, now I can build my case to bomb Israel. It has nuclear weapons. It constantly threatens and even attacks its neighbours, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and of course Palestine. And it denies the Armenian holocaust!!!! Woo-hoo, I'm convinced, lets get those dangerous, holocaust-denying freaks. Where do the Commondreams staff keep their stealth bombers....

This is like the majority of Jews were against the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
That is what they say--but I don't hear them, I don't see them. All the Jewish represntives I see and hear support the Zionist agenda.

Sorry, this is the same as the line that Israel warned against attacking Iraq as damage control to curb potential blowback. Our congressman and all politicians who pander to Jewish interests echo zionist/neocon aims--HClinton, the perfect example-- andthat belies this talk of majorities universally.

Apparently the Israeli voters are just as fickle and dim-witted as the American electorate.

First they vote to put two right wing fanatics in office, Bush and Olmert, then when Israel runs into some military resistance in Lebanon and the USA runs into a quagmire in Iraq the warmongering voters that facilitated these guys are now having second thoughts.

I guess we can look to nazi Germany for some comparisons, when things started to crumble for the Third Reich you would be hard pressed to find someone to admit they actually supported Hitler, when in fact he was elected Chancellor by over 90% of the vote.

Lets face it, whoever said you can never go wrong underestimating the intelligence of the American voter, was correct.

With all the energy, debate and controversy swirling around the "correct" interpretation of 3 or 4 of Ahmadinejad's notorious statements, let me make two comments:

1)Ahmadinejad has little power in the Iranian government, and probably even less influence.

2) On any one day, W. will make 3 or 4 far more controversial and contradictory statements than Ahmadinejad could ever even dream up. The American public and the media simply ignore him.

So why should we give more weight to Ahmadinejad's statements than we give to the Decider's, whose finger is on the nuclear button?

I don't suppose it has ever occurred to anyone. But, they are extremely hypocritical in not wanting Iran to have nuclear weapons. They have had that sort of weapons for several years now. No one in our government had a word to say about it. Myself I think Israel with nuclear weapons is just as dangerous as Iran. They are too much like Bush, shoot first and ask questions later when it turns out of be a mess. I am not as afraid of terrorist's or Iran with nuclear weapons as I am that immoral degenerate in the White House who has his finger on the button that could blow all of us to kingdom come. From where I am standing all Iran wants it to protect itself. They have just as much right as the US or Israel. So what is the big deal here??????

And like us, they can't fire their leaders.

Remember the French Revolution?

"If all you're actually trying to say is that various interests that are currently coincident between two or more parties got that way due to various events that occurred further back in history, I wasn't aware that that obvious and indisputable fact was being ignored."

Arvy...that's a grosser misinterpretation of what I was referring to than your earlier 'baiting' re: some 'conspiracy theory'.
What you say above is what 'should be' in a world 'unrocked by self-Interested hands', so to speak. Most human-travail and great-events are dictated for the enjoyment/profit or Mythos of a tiny-minority carrying out a multi-generational 'plan' enriching themselves at all-others expense. This is a coordinated, secretive, and deliberate act on their-part.
The easiest-example of same, that you can readily read-about, would be the Rise and current-roles of the Rothschild-family (and carry that through connections with JDR&heirs as well as JPMorgan&FedReserve/Masonic/governmental-'influences' in the US (and in Britain through Rhodes/DeBeers/Balfour/etc.). Just don't get 'too excited' and think that's the only-such (or even the most-powerful) 'Interest'. It is mid-way in a 'pack' (others would say 'Cabal') of a couple-dozen.

These dirty Thirty percent in Israel and the US are the chief obstacle to sane governments. I agree with vinlander that somehow 30% of people are so conformist or afraid or something that they are ridiculously manipulated by elites and appear devoid of independent thought. Canada and Europe must have their 30% too and yet have sane governments- progressives need to figure out how to break the hold on these 30%

"I hope I'm wrong."

Good news, then...!

RE: SEQUOIABISON December 7th, 2007 7:53 am
"Apparently the Israeli voters are just as fickle and dim-witted as the American electorate. First they vote to put two right wing fanatics in office, Bush and Olmert"

Although I agree that the US populace has been "dumbed down", if you had taken the time to peruse the thread I posted earlier, you would see this has been intentionally done (See PaulMagillSmith December 7th, 2007 12:28 am).

There is plenty of evidence to support the fact Bush was never elected, but 'selected & installed'. How can you assume the same process & people didn't affect a similar coup in Isreal regarding Olmert? Who is the tail, though, and who is the dog is the question?

Ramses was never a member of the royal family in ancient Egypt, choosing instead to start his own dynasty when the the previous lineage died out. What makes you believe times have changed regarding our current American (or Isreali) 'royal' dynasties?

I do completely with this part of your post however, "...put two right wing fanatics in office..."

RE: MeAlsoToo December 7th, 2007 1:41 pm
"This is a coordinated, secretive, and deliberate act on their-part."...
"the Rothschild-family..." current owners of.."DeBeers"..."Just don't get 'too excited' and think that's the only-such (or even the most powerful) 'Interest'."...ever heard of Skull & Bones or Carlyle Group?..."It is mid-way in a 'pack' (others would say 'Cabal') of a couple-dozen."

Current estimates have about 900 people 'ruling' the rest of the 6 billion+ people on the planet through military, financial, political, & media control means.

If you want to know what MeAlsoToo and I are speaking of I reiterate:

http://iamthewitness.com/doc/RothschildsTimeline-filer/frame.htm

hermes, denying isn't the same as not caring. and really, the only threatening regimes in the middle east are the u.s and israel? everyone else is just so nice.

Dude3, what point are you trying to make? That the US and Israel (who clearly are the most threatening regimes in the ME), are right to be threating to attack Iran, and perhaps should actually do so because Iran actively denies the holocaust?

What is your point? btw: The Islamic Republic of Iran has never attacked anyone. Do you honestly believe they are going to commit suicide by attacking Israel?