Powerbook:

You have slightly changed your posting name but you are the same person who cried wolf on this site when I was posting to it from CARACAS in June.

I have lived for 15 years in Latin America (Mexico), am bilingual English/Spanish and spend quite a bit of time in Venezuela. So I KNOW what life is like there--at least in the working class barrios of the city. I do not frequent Chacao.

Your inflation gripe shows a real lack of historical knowledge about the region you supposedly live in--where in some countries such as Peru, inflation hit the MILLIONS during the first term (1985-90, I believe) of the current president, Alan Garcia. Inflation has been well into the THOUSANDS in many other Latin American countries. And it happened when their economy was NOT booming from a dynamic private sector and high petroleum prices!

The inflationary figure shows TWO things:

1. Venezuela's having a boom, and

2. Venezuelans, historically VERY dedicated SHOPPERS, are shopping again like mad.

In short, the inflationary figure for the highest performing economy in the region is absolutely NOTHING to worry about.

As for the much-trumpeted food shortages, you may want to consider that:

1. many folks have been hoarding because of the recent violence provoked by the opposition since they remember December 5 years ago, and

2. the folks who own the grocery stores and chains are not chavistas, but opposition members trying to provoke social unrest.

Also, I heard all over this site and others in June when I was THERE about shortages--and I saw ZERO shortages. I had no problem whatsoever buying ANYTHING in the Candelaria--which is not a high-roller barrio. There is a lot of disinformation circulated in Internet, and frankly, YOU have been part of that.

I HAVE heard that there have been some soldiers involved in selling food across the border in Colombia--but have not seen proof. Four years ago at this time I was told in Santa Elena--a few kilometers from the Brazilian border, that soldiers were doing a brisk business selling cheap gasoline on the other side. I didn't see it happen, but Santa Elena has a sort of frontier-town lawless ambience and it could have been happening.

I think there is a real lack of maturity in Venezuela. When I can't buy basic items in our mercado in the village where I live in Mexico (where a president was IMPOSED rather than elected last year) I do not immediately run out and complain that the president--spurious though he is--is at the bottom of my inconvenience.

Yet, every time I have been in Venezuela I have heard middle aged women in corner tiendas complain because coca cola (!!!???) had gone up slightly in price because of Chavez.

DAB, please don't be too sure that I'm not skeptical of a British Prime Minister running too many times. At least there, though, they have that Parliamentary "no confidence" vote thing to maintain a check on power.
I don't think that was part of the Hugo Chavez plan.

As for hoping Mr. Chavez will succeed, with success defined as progressive progress for Venezuelans, not just a power grip, yes, I hope for that.

But posts like the one from "powerbook" just above should give us some reason to be skeptical.

Moonraven, you evidently know more about Hugo Chavez's former wife than I do. But, evidently, the voters there (barely) agreed with her warnings about him.

powerbook, bligh and daniel

Don't you guys get it.

If Hugo Chavez was Jesus Christ, it wouldn't matter.

The local oligarchs and their plutocratic masters in the US would still dis him.

Last, in 1989, when a supposed social democrat was in power, Perez, he laid done a harsh IMF-dictated austerity program on Venezuela's poor majority.

The sizable number of Venezuelans protested these vicious austerity measures; many were shot down by the "democratically" elected government. The number killed has been est. up to 2,000. Many times that number were wounded and left to cure themselves on the streets.

How did the Venezuelan oligarchs respond to both the harsh attack on the standard of living of millions and the execution and wounding of thousands? Did they evoke a continous anti-government campaign, did elite students protest, did the mostly oligarchy-owned MSM complain?

How did the US MSM, political elite, pundits, etc. respond? Was there a concerted campaign of outrage? Did the CIA, US Embassy, NED, etc. get involved in a concerted effort to make these murderers answer for their "dictatorial" methods?

Forget about it! Nobody gave a damn among the Venezuelan elite, middle classes and the US plutocrats. It was a job well done.

Today, Perez lives in comfortable retirement in Miami. Guess who pays his bills?

Hugo Chavez and his supporters in the military emerged and gained power in RESPONSE to the callous and historical indifference of the local oligarchy (and middle class's) to the plight of the impoverished majority.

Gosh, what a spittin' contest. Onto the subject (I think).
I don't know a lot about Chavez or Venezuela. A lot of what I've read sounds good on the surface. But I liked his efforts to help American's in need of heating oil a couple of years ago. So I tried to send him an e-mail thanking him since my president was not being so gracious. I sent it to the Venezuelan embasey e-mail address listed on their web-page. I got a message that there was no such address. I don't think the Venezuelan Embasey changes their e-mail address a lot. Around the same time there was a lot of talk about Venezuala being a terrorist state. I haven't heard anything about the Venezuelan Embasey being closed but it wouldn't surprise me.
Now about this Danial David guy or whatever his name isn't. How DARE he advocate for the Democratic Party. The nerve of some people!

Hello. Does anyone know what else was on the ballot? Did all the changes get defeated? Or doesn't anything else matter besides term limits? I've googled several terms and can find nothing so far on my own - anyone have any information? I thought there were some 60-plus items on the referendum, but didn't hear about anything except term limits! Is this the limit of our attention?

Uribe, along with Saca in El Sal, are just Bush's narco buddies as Noriega is/was his dad's
impeach and hang in public
you USA people are just so ignorant

revolution coming 'sheeples'

12 million hispanics with guns
wake up time

OK I get it. This discussion is about how Americans perceive Chavez, not about what he's actually doing here and now. Sorry, I promise I won't say another word.

armybrat: the site venezuelanalysis.com has extended information on the 69 proposed changes to the Constitution--and in English.

"Powerbook" wrote: Or the fact that it's getting harder and harder to get certain foods, like milk and eggs, for instance.
It would be a surprise if this was not happening; in Chile, my country, this was a very effective tactic used by CIA in order to upset people's mood. I guess they are using big distribution and retail chains, just like here.
By the way, it's interesting to see that the anti-Chavez coalition has the same composition of the anti-Allende's one: Oligarchy, Cristian Democrats and US Government.

Lots of funny comments, hay gringos muy divertidos :-)

Hugo Chavez has been a good leader for the people of his country. He is also human and capable of both good and bad ideas. His people felt this was a bad idea - case closed. If you believe in democratic rule you must applaud the fact that an informed public has made it's will known and the leader respects that (if somewhat grudgingly). Bu$h the inferior could never do that.

Daniel David:

I know a fair amount about Latin America in general because I live in it and also give presentatations about it--with emphasis on Venezuela, Mexico and the history of agrarian reform projects--here, in the US and in the Middle East.

Most of the information that I posted about the second Señora de Chávez is available if one does a careful search in Internet and is relatively fluent in Spanish.

But the point I want to make is that I am ALWAYS skeptical when it comes to politicians. When Chavez was elected I was very skeptical--partly because I am pretty well-versed on the results of governments headed by military men--and by ex-military men in the part of the world. I was also writing about the phenomenon of CAUDILLISMO here, and I thought that perhaps Chavez would make a good, current chapter.

When I am skeptical it is not my habit to jump into INternet and start shooting off my keyboard. I have the habit of investigating--and doing so on the ground. So I have made several trips to Venezuela, and have had several useful conversations with Chavez, among other folks.

I suggest that you might want to consider doing something similar to clear up your doubts.

If Chavez decided to send some oil money, just because, to the Trans-Nationals' bankers in New York and Dubhai would he get a better image from the MSM?

Pregunta un Gringo inocente.

I just wiggle and giggle, reading all this.

machi,

I am not living in Chile nor am I a chilena but I remember very well the order given to the CIA by Nixon when Allende was ELECTED:

"Make the Chilean economy SCREAM!"

They do the same shenanagins over and over--not so much for lack of imagination, but because folks are gullible and buy into it.

In a memo dated Nov. 20, Michael Steele reportedly working in the US embassy as a "regional affairs officer" lays out a plot to CIA Director General Michael Hayden. The plot, "Operation Pliers", which included an $8 million US-funded in country propaganda campaign. Aside from the merits or demerits of the referendum, do we want our government interfering like this in sovereign nations (don't forget the coups in Venezuela and Haiti), and spending our tax $ in the process while our debt flies through the roof, and health care, education, public housing, transportation, etc. degenerate?
The memo is discussed at length in counterpunch articles by James Petras and Dave Lindorff

Wow. what a fantastic discussion. The critical thinking, the information, and the speaking truth to power -- no wonder I keep coming back here to escape from our corporate media's mind-numbing, one-note approach to most important issues.

There were times when exciting changes were afoot in this country. It seems like you have to go SA these days to get a whiff of not only vibrant media but actual democracy.

Viva Chavez!

rumiluv,

What mechanisms do you have to stop them?

They have always done it.

I am finishing a thorough account of that, a new book by Luis Suarez Salazar--unfortunately in Spanish only--Un siglo de terror en America Latina--cronica de crimenes contra la humanidad de Estados Unidos.

It only goes from the turn of the twentieth century forward....

However, in the 1820s, Simon Bolivar wrote: The United States appears destined to plague America with misery in the name of freedom....

That was right about when the Monroe Doctrine was unilaterally promulgated.

Moonraven: Thank you SO much for your input. It is all so informative and seemed relatively unbiaesed. Bravo!

Another observation: Just like in American politics we expect every candidate to be perfect in every way. Yet we do not vote for the candidates that truely represent us. Chavez may not be perfect, but at least he seems to be representing his people instead of the corporations and the rich. Can we give the criticism a rest and give him a chance? How about we do the same thing here in the primaries? How about rewarding those that that stand up for the people?

Lets give democracy a chance.

Rebel:

I used to be a journalist in the US--quit that when I left for Mexico 15 years ago.

In that 15 years I have seen journalism in the US sink to simply licking the boots of those in power.

And anyone who does try to speak the truth is drummed out of the corps. Dan Rather is a good case in point--more years as a credible MAINSTREAM jornalist than most folks in the US have lived--and bounced out on his ear.

He is suing the bastards, of course--but even if he wins the money will only buy him a nice coffin--not his reputation back.

This is 1 gringo in favor of "The Bolivarian Revolution".From all I've read and studied of it and other peoples movements they will remain with us unless the fascists kill every free thinking man ,woman and child on the planet.(and don't think they haven't given that several attempts.)

"You really haven't been a virgin for so long it's ludicrous to keep up the pretext...
You've slept with all the big powers in military uniforms
and you've taken the sweet life of all the little brown fellows...
Being one of the world's big vampires. Why don't you come out and say so like Japan, and England, and France and all the other nymphomaniacs of power.

Langston Hughes addressing his country from "A Power" Zinn

Seems as though the bourgeoisie are always calling foal.This time because they may have to limit there shopping sprees to Miami.

Viva Chavez Viva Morales

Thanks to all this and yesterdays Chavez thread have been very informative (for the most part)

workreno: Right on!!!!

I had a woman this summer that wanted me to make her a trellis and some furniture . She correctly told me that ipe (a SA hardwood) was pronounced e pay not i pay, for she was from Columbia .I laughed and admitted she would know better than I in that case.
Then I said Columbia huh ? There are some good thing going down in SA. She then went on about bashing Chavez.

You know I never did the estimate on that work...

The two things I liked best about this article were: touch screen voting with a paper receipt and a 54% random sample to verify that the count is statistically accurate.

American polling surveys use a much smaller sample, even the census uses a much smaller sample to statistically correlate results. Viva Chavez, viva Venezuela, viva Bolivarian Socialism!

If people want some over-arching background on how the US behaves with respect to our neighbors to the south, read Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States." It is an eye opener and I guarntee you'll never believe again our govt's opinion of any leftist leader in South or Central America.

I just assume if our Media is bad mouthing anyone, they are more than likely doing a great deal to help their people at the expense of the ruling oligarchy and multinationals.

The absurdity of equating abolishing term limits and declaring someone president for life can be simply illustrated.

If the U.S. abolished presidential term limits next week, would Bush be president for life?

Only if someone assassinated him before 2009.

Here's the problem. With U.S. newspapers saying reforming the infant (less than 20 years old) constitution would make Chavez president for life, can we doubt that the opposition-owned press and TV were doing likewise?

If the reform package was defeated because the voters thought they were defeating something other than what was actually part of it, how much respect should be paid to the result?

The US mainstream media is for the fools. I have long put it in the can and flushed them down the toilet.

Moonraven:

I can't remember where to send you to read things directly, but I have read pretty reputable reporting on food shortages and believe they exist.

I have also read interviews with oppositionists who claim, if you carefully parse their statements, that shortages are deliberately being created by opposition elements. They blame the government for "creating a climate" in which producers, not consumers, are hoarding and cutting back food production.

Why not have a referendum on impeaching Bush/Cheney?

Do check out today's article by James Petras, a sociologist, professor emeritus from Binghamton U, who has researched, in depth, Venezuela. Here is the link: http://www.counterpunch.org/petras12052007.html.
He writes exactly why there are shortages of foodstuffs in Venezuela, why Chavez lost, why many things are occurring as they are in that country.

If I could, I would trade our Harper, free of cost, to Venezuelans who would rather have authoritarian corporate government, for Chavez. I rather like the idea of being able to directly vote for issues that will affect my future.

By the way, our leaders can stay in power forever if their party does not lose,they do not retire, they do not die of old age, or if they do not lose a non-confidence vote from either their own party, or on a parliamentary bill that does not generate enough support such as the budget (usually a major cause for non-confidence, though the prolonging of troops in Afghanistan may do it sooner).

On a side point. voting technology. The machines described here--touchscreens with paper trails--actually are inferior to other voting technologies.

Optical scan machines are much better. They are used along with traditional paper ballots, which are generally made of harder paper stock and thus are much easier to maintain and to count (either in audits or in recounts) than most of the paper used to accompany touchscreen machines. Touchscreens usually are retro-fitted with printers that produce grocery store receipt type things, which do not "wear" well and are very difficult to handle in recounts/audits.

But the 54% audit is fantastic! Wow, with that kind of serious auditing, you can really have some faith in your results.

Sigh. Accurate vote counts are almost as "quaint" as the Geneva conventions, aren't they?

'If Hugo Chavez was Jesus Christ, it wouldn't matter.

The local oligarchs and their plutocratic masters in the US would still dis him.'

remember what DID happen to Jesus Christ!

PUBLIC SERVICE announcement: Theres been a masacre in Omaha, Nebraska....like Columbine and the recent massacre in Finland, the killer was a teen on antidepressants:

'Breaking story:

'A friend of Hawkins told KETV that Hawkins had been on antidepressants, staying with friends and bouncing from job to job.'

http://www.cbs46.com/news/14783006/detail.html

Will this aspect of story receive more coverage?

Story:
'OMAHA, Neb. -- A teenage gunman who some descibed as troubled and others say was funny opened fire in a busy mall near Omaha Wednesday, killing eight people before turning the weapon on himself.

Five others were said to be wounded, two critically.

The shooter at Westroads Mall was identified by the Sarpy County Sheriff's Office as Robert Hawkins, of Bellevue, Neb., TV station KETV reported.

Hawkins had been arrested on at least two misdemeanors in November and was due in court this month.

Sarpy deputies said they were getting a warrant to search Hawkins' home.

Shortly after the shooting, Hawkins' mother walked into its office with a note that "could be interpreted as suicidal," the sheriff's office said.

KETV reported that the note left with the Sarpy sheriff's office said Hawkins wanted to "go out in style."

It also reportedly said Hawkins was "going to go out and be famous."

Yost said Sarpy County is working with Omaha police.

A friend of Hawkins told KETV that Hawkins had been on antidepressants, staying with friends and bouncing from job to job.

Staying With Friend

KETV reported that it had talked with a woman named Debra, at whose home Hawkins was staying. He was apparently friends with Debra's sons, and she offered her home to give him stability.

She was quoted as calling Hawkins, who she called Robbie, a troubled kid who had recently been fired from a job at McDonald's.

Deborah said that she believed Hawkins stole the gun from his step-father.

Debra said Hawkins was coming out of his room Wednesday morning when she last saw him.

"He said he'd gotten fired and was pretty upset and said, 'This is the only way,' and we tried to talk to him," Debra said. "He was just a very troubled -- I had no idea that he was this troubled."

Debra said she saw Hawkins with a gun Tuesday night and thought he and her sons were going hunting, which they did quite often.

'Anything But A Terrorist'

Another friend, Andrew Bigler, said that Hawkins was "an awesome kid" and that he loved him like a brother.

"Robbie was anything but a terrorist," he said, and said he didn't think Hawkins was filled with anger, just that he was an average teenager with average problems.

Other friends told KETV that Hawkins was a funny person who liked to make others laugh.'
etc

In spite of having to put up with trolls and appeasers, I agree with dip67. This site is a wealth of information and critical thinking. It is a relief and pleasure to read so much intelligent, thoughtful discussion and know it still exists in our country. I also appreciate the input from people in other countries. We really need viewpoints "from the outside". Information wise, for Americans dependent upon corporate media for news we are living within an iron curtain. It helps to hear what people on the ground are observing.

Moonraven, your input is especially informative.

The si or no/up or down vote was a tactical error - especially if social transformation is the real goal.

I say si to a 6 hour work day!

I say si to the natural resources being controlled by the people!

I say si to pensions for home makers and street vendors!

etc, etc, etc!

Like many others, I'm wary of the cult of personality and founders syndrome.

The Left the world over must learn how to build, cultivate and turnover leadership.

Hugo Chavez is no dictator, but he is a huge force in the struggle against the Washington Consensus. He has taken on the system without edges, the one so ubiquitus that they say this is just the way life is -- there is no changing it, we've hit the pinnacle - the end of history. Chavez brings the message to his people that No! We do not accept this - we have struggled for 500 years and try as they might to exterminate us, we are still here. And now, we are organized, we are educated, and we are empowered and they will never rule us again. We do not accept that we are to be the perpetual slaves and subjects of the north.

He turns the American mythology on its head. His speeches last forever because he tells the story of the struggle for the last 500 years (no notes, quoting everyone under the sun) in just about every one of them. He shows the world that there are alternatives to the neo-liberal model that only returns wealth to wealth. He constantly reminds the people that he works for THEM, that this is their government, and that it is not about him.

So when people say things like "power grab" and "cult of personality" I just don't get it. He has an incredibly powerful presence and he inspires a whole nation - or rather nations who have felt like there was no hope for centuries. He is adored - and rightly so, but he is also very down to earth. He has literally risked his life for the cause, been arrested and jailed for it, been kidnapped and nearly assassinated on numerous occasions. Sounds like fun, huh? Wouldn't you just love to do this for life? No, he is so committed to the vision of a strong, thriving, united planet that he will give all of himself for as long as the people want him. He is the Kucinich of Venezuela.

Daniel David,

Most of the time I don't agree with your postings, but I applaud your insistence and 'stubbornness' in the face of a sometimes 'hostile' blogging environment. That is exactly what any democracy needs.

I live here in South Africa and here it is not the right-wing that is known to move like a 'mob' politically with whole masses uncritically following where ever the 'leader' tells them to go, but it is the left that behaves in this way. In my opinion, what is the value of being left-wing if that is not your own choice, but you got there just by following and uncritical thinking ?

I do think your posts are intelligent and well-articulated and I sincerely hope that the Democrats win the next election and that the Republicans will be decimated (preferably with only a few senators and congressmen left).
But I also hope that the Democrats will feel the heat from a strong left-wing party like the Greens and that they will start to 'feel' that they are being watched by an angry and impatient electorate. In a democracy, the politicians should fear the electorate, not the other way around.

That is why I mostly do not agree with your 'campaigning' for the democrats. Building a progressive movement has a much higher priority in my view and that is what the majority of Commondreamers are actively doing by supporting Third parties and building a real democracy in the U.S. 'Winning the elections for the Democrats' is just a bit lower on the list of 'must-do's'.

I think it is obvious that Venezuela's voting system trumps ours in its reliability. They should have 100% paper ballots, however, and get rid of all the electronic machines. That should be our goal in the U.S. A good way to cut through all the garbage put out by corporate media about Hugo Chavez is to read Tariq Ali's PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN.

I am a US leftist who was very happy to see Chavez lose this last vote and submit to the will of the electorate. No other outcome could have been more helpful in preventing an assassination attempt by covert operatives of the US government. Sometimes Chavez shows more courage than he should, as he must have known that winning the vote would most likely lead to martyrdom. Is that what he wants?

I find it amusing that even the Canadian press accuses Chavez of wanting to be a dictator because he wants the right to run for office as long as people elect him. In parliamentary democracies this is the norm.I have not read this in any article written on Chavez.How many years was Blair in charge of England without the majority of votes,Howard in Australia or Canada's current Prime Minister,all won with less than half the cast votes and could continue to run indefinately and win with well under half the cast votes.George Bush won twice by losing.

Without commenting on how Chavez would act had he won the referendum—because no one knows that—I can understand why some of the posters are advocates of term limit. With vote rigging and election stealing that has recently been done in the US, can you imagine more hanky panky and Bush as lifetime president? Wow! I bet if that happened, most of us would probably commit suicide. The moral of the story: term limit is damn good FOR THE USA.

Winnetou and Moonraven

Thanks for your comments. I wholly agree with someone else above that one of the most valuable aspects of CD is the participation we have here from folks like you who are not living in the USA and can bring in other important perspectives.

As for me, I generate a lot of "heat" advocating for Democrats, but occasionally some "light" too by drawing others, such as you, to jump in with added depth for the discussions rather than just a bashing session. I am probably naive to a fault, still believing in the conventional "left", and it is because I believe we can come nearer pushing real progress past Democrats than past Republicans, or past a mixed bag of gridlock. I am a progressive at heart, just skeptical of the America I know being able to get people like Ralph Nader into power. I'm going to keep asking for Democrats, then ask for citizens to scream the progressive agenda into their ears once they're there.
In other words, I believe the Democrats may be maleable, but I know the Republicans are not.

As for Hugo Chavez, kivals (above) may be right that losing the "reforms" will keep him alive and perhaps working hard for his people without losing his head literally or figuratively because of "absolute" power.

This has been a positive discussion, for the most part.

While I strongly support Chavez Bolivarian Revolution, as well aas the other forms the fight for economic and social liberation the working class and allies forces of that area at taking, it is clear that Chavez/has folks, made a tactical erro, that of overreaching, in pushing such a wide referendum at this time.

However, Chavez clearly is at the head of the forces of democracy, economic and social liberation in Venezuela. Their victories are also, whether we all realize or not, victories for progressive forces here. Their setbacks will also affect us negativeley, as well. One of the best examples I like to use (as a steelworker and long-time union leader/activist) is that of Chile. The Arizona copper mines are organized by the USW here (Steelworker Union, formerly the left Mine, Mill Smelter Union, before that merger). They are Anaconda & Kennecutt corporation mines.

During the 60's, our folks here struck, when the contract ran out, over the increasingly bad conditions at our mines here. In Chile, where the other major Anaconda and Kennecutt mines were, production was increased by the companies, and our union members in the southwest fought to a standstill, returning to work after 6 monthes with little changes.

After Allende, the Popular Unity (with Socialists, Communists, all Chilean Unions as part of that govt.), was overwhelmingly elected in Chile, the mines there were nationalized. Anaconda and Kennecutt lost their ability to shift production and isolation U.S. unions. Another USW strike was called, after the latest contract experied. It lasted only two days! Major gains were achieved both for U.S. unionists, as well as for the Chilean people.

However, a short time later, the CIA, with Pinochet and the corrupt Chilean generals, drowned theat govt. in blood. Anaconda & Kennecutt were quickly rewarded by having their mines returned to them. Soon after that, those companies launched an all-out union-busting campaign, shutting down the mills. The USW was broken in Arizona, and these historic mines (where the great labor film "Salt of the Earth" was made) are still being run as scab mines. Both U.S. and Chilean peoples have been horribly harmed.

However, when speaking of "overreaching," at this time. I think those spending their time attacking Mr Daniel, should study tactics a bit! Some have spoken about folks being "sell-oouts" for voting for the Dems, I would submit, with out any understanding of or program for, changing our nation. While it is certainly true that both parties are corporate based parties, they are hardly "exactly the same." Bush and the ultra-right clearly have shown their colors, and they are mean!
Truely outright anti-people, anti-labor, pro-war and anti-democratic. Bush's GOP rule has been marked by attacks on all people's gains, union-busting, wars without end and rolling back of all democratic liberties.

The political system in our nation is clearly a stacked deck, with the two corporate parties in total control. The next president will be from one of these parties, as will the entire congress/senate. I would very much like to see a real left, labor-led political party as part of that equestion, but it WILL NOT BE in the upcoming election. (& I do not define the 'Greens' as a left, certainly not a 'labor-based or Af Amer based, polititcal party). Without those main forces for change, not real new party can emerge that can have any real influence.

Meanwhile, the Dems, while, yes, also corporate-bassed, is hardly "exactly the same." First of all, there is a progressive wing, represented by Kucinich, Sherrod Brown, Conyers, Delumms, Wellstone, before his death, and many, many others. This wing, especially, is closely tied to labor and the Af American community, women amd the wider progressive and peace communities. Further, either the D's or the R's will win, period, and a massive well-organzed people's movement is growing, preparing for the '08 elections, fighting to elect the Dems. This movement is multi-layered, fighting for labor rights, pension rights, housing, democratic rights, for peace and for the monies spent on war be spent on health care, etc, at home, for universal health care. It is a multiclass movement, with a wide gerth, mainly center/left, but certainly with corporate elements of even the ruling class. At this time in history, this is the kind of movement, huge/wide, with wide, but mainly positive influences, that can break the hold of the ultra-right on our govt. This is the fight for the vazst majority of the American people. We arrogantly stand on the sidelines at our own peril.

Meanwhile, there are some here, that stand aside from the vast people's movement, yelling sell-out, as though that, or 'voting Green,' could in any way possibly affect our nation's political outcome next year. For any serious progressive, fighter for social justice, the electoral arena must be an arena that we use to win gains, isolate the worst, ultra-right, corpoate elements. A Democrat sweep next year, even with the many, many warts attached, will be a huge, a massive victory for our people, for the people of the world! for anyone that thinks that the election is in any way a end of struggles, then you have the worst of illusions. But that victory can give the people's movement an historic opportunity to fight and win peace, democracry, labor and pension rights, and prosperity. But only if we fight!

Just a final wrd on history. Both Lincoln & FDR were compromise candidates. They were at the beginning attacked by some in the abolishtionist movement, and the wide people's movement of the '30's respectively, as being "too conservative." Actually, they might have been that, had the wider movements not continued to fight for economic and social justice, forcing those governments to move in a positive direction. Theelections of Lincoln/FDR just made it possible for the people's movements to win!

Moonraven; Thank you very much for reporting 'from the field', rather than like the armchair speculators who have never been there. In spite of the obstacles from within and without confronting Chavez everyday, he has initiated many positive programs for uplifting his fellow citizens. We in the US should be so lucky to have a president as good as Hugo. But Americans have been taught to worship billionaires and multi-millionaires and not the common good for all citizens. Greed and selfishness is our national motto.

As far as voting, the United States is in no position to question any other nation's voting practices. And the majority of Americans could care less about political actions by their own government as they are more concerned about sports and entertainment.

Nobody is perfect, but Hugo Chavez, as well as Evo Morales are lighthouses of truth and justice on the dark sea of deception and corruption.

Moonraven and A Part... thanks for the links. Found a lot on counterpunch that is very interesting. The all-in-one referendum was a mistake - as was asking for no term limits, although that is the norm in many First World countries... while wanting term limits for governors, mayors, whatever. Too much to swallow in one bite.

Glad to see so much discussion about Latin American affairs - too many Americans know nothing abou the rest of the world. Also, I always expect to find US intervention behind 'student protests' - kids are easy to stir up since many are so idealistic. And we all know the US stirs up trouble in any country that wants social progress - that would set a bad example for the world!

I think Chavez' intentionality is that the Bolivarian Revoloution should have no term limits i.e. that the reactionary elites in Venezuela wouldn't succeed in their counter-revoloution in the near future and reinstall the government that collaborates with the Washington consensus.
But I share DanielDavid's wariness about a highly charismatic leader who may become monomaniacal. I'm sure you're all familiar with Lord Acton's hackneyed warning, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Hackneyed, but a fundamentally true statement about human nature. The revoloution is for, by, and about the people. It was their intervention that saved Chavez from the 2002 Washington-sponsored coup attempt. Let's hope he never forgets that.

Unionguy; Informative post. How many Dems say they will abolish 'Taft-Hartly'?
The only really pro-union (which means pro-worker, for you non-union folks) candidate is Dennis Kucinich. Most are disingenuous.

I remember reading about international war criminal Henry Kissinger and his buddy Pinochet. and what happened to the miners here and in Chile.

Reagan busted the Professional Air Traffic Controllers union, and in the next election, got plenty of votes from trade unionists. ??? You know the story.

Ignorance is not bliss, is it?
A fellow unionguy.

Check out TheRealNews story on this vote:

http://www.therealnews.com/web/index.php?thisepisode=83

This is a two part video interview with the Editor of the website VenezuelaAnalysis.com, Gregory Wilpert.

unionguy,

Thanks for your posts, and not just because you've been kind to me. But THANKS for bringing specifically items about union perspective and union history. That is a very, very important part of "progressivism" and not enough people here are talking about it.

I was never a union member, but rather was a hired controller in a privately-held and non-union manufacturing company for a couple of decades. The owners there saw to it that I was sent the "Chamber of Commerce" view of everything---all the publications---and it was there that I developed respect for unions.
I ate lunch with the boss in a "staff meeting" every day and had to hide the fact I was a liberal at heart.
The owners there were a pretty fair and honest bunch, but staunchly anti-union. I wasn't, but it was an existence like "don't ask, don't tell."

Keep writing. You do it well.

Eric Barth I must agree that all that are interested in this thread might want to get a copy of:

Pirates of the Caribbean (not captain jack)Tariq Ali

The monster will fall if we all push together!

Solidarity

There is nothing inherently wrong with re-election. Most European governments permit it, and take a look at how long some of our own senators have served. I disagree with the 7-year term Chavez was pursuing. I would support perpetual re-election for 4 year terms, but 7 years decreases accountability. Anyway, I despise presidential systems in general because they make policies more difficult to pass, especially the policies that help the poor. Venezuela is lucky because the left controls all branches of government. That situation won't last forever. The worst part of presidentialism, however, is that it poisons politics by turning campaigns into manly contests for power.