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The Dubious Mr. Dobbs
Truth matters. History and context count. "You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts," the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously observed. CNN's Lou Dobbs has migrated to a pre-eminent position in the debate on immigration in the U.S. Since he identifies himself as a journalist, he has a special responsibility to rely on facts and to correct misstatements of fact. CNN, which purports to be a news organization, touting itself as the "Most Trusted Name in News," has an equally strong obligation to its audience to tell the truth.
Dobbs was best known for anchoring CNN's "Moneyline," an early and influential program that helped create the televised financial-news genre. On "Moneyline," Dobbs featured corporate CEOs and generally lauded them. About five years ago, Dobbs began changing his line, invoking populist rhetoric and championing the cause of the middle class. He thematically titled his coverage "War on the Middle Class" and "Broken Borders." Dobbs' signature issue of undocumented immigrants, or, as he calls them, illegal aliens, has tremendous influence on the debate nationally. So it matters if he is wrong.
On March 28, 2006, Dobbs said on his show, "And it's costing us, no one knows precisely how much, to incarcerate what is about a third of our prison population who are illegal aliens." As it turns out, the number of noncitizens incarcerated in the U.S. federal and state prisons is closer to 6 percent, not 33 percent. Note that the 6 percent includes legal immigrants as well.
On April 14, 2005, Lou Dobbs opened his show by saying: "The invasion of illegal aliens is threatening the health of many Americans. Highly contagious diseases are now crossing our borders decades after those diseases had been eradicated in this country." CNN correspondent Christine Romans filed a report, then told Dobbs, "There have been 7,000 [cases of leprosy] in the past three years." CBS' "60 Minutes" later challenged the fact, pointing out that there had actually been 7,029 cases reported over 30 years. When Lesley Stahl confronted Dobbs on the statistic, he defended it, saying: "Well, I can tell you this. If we reported it, it's a fact."
Dobbs' reporter, Romans, said her source was "Dr. Madeleine Cosman, a respected medical lawyer and medical historian." Cosman, who died in March 2006, was a medical lawyer and staunch anti-immigrant activist. She was recorded saying publicly of Mexican men: "Recognize that most of these bastards molest girls under age 12, some as young as age 5, others aged 3, although, of course, some specialize in boys, some specialize in nuns, some are exceedingly versatile and rape little girls aged 11 and women up to age 79."
After I played the tape of Cosman for Dobbs, he conceded to me that his reporter's source, Cosman, was a "whack job."
On May 23, 2006, Dobbs aired a report on a state visit by Mexican President Vicente Fox. His correspondent, Casey Wian, called it a "Mexican military incursion" and displayed a map of the U.S. with the seven Southwest states highlighted as "Aztlan," which, Wian reported, "some militant Latino activists ... claim rightfully belongs to Mexico." The graphic came from the Council of Conservative Citizens, which the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that tracks hate groups, points out is the current incarnation of the old White Citizen Councils of the 1950s and 1960s, which Thurgood Marshall referred to as "the uptown Klan." The SPLC has reported that several of Dobbs' guests and sources have had links to the CCC, such as Joe McCutchen of Protect Arkansas Now, part of the Minuteman vigilante movement, and Barbara Coe of the California Coalition for Immigration Reform. Another guest, Glenn Spencer, head of the anti-immigrant group American Patrol, speaks on the white-supremacist circuit. When CNN's Wolf Blitzer had Spencer on, he told his audience that the SPLC had designated American Patrol as a hate group. When Dobbs had him on, he never identified the connection.
In our conversation with Dobbs, "Democracy Now!" co-host Juan Gonzalez raised the issue of history, of how immigrants have been scapegoated: the Irish in the 1860s, the Chinese in the 1880s and, later, Southern Europeans. Dobbs rolled his eyes, saying, "Are you holding me responsible?" No, and Dobbs knows better. But he must be held responsible for not bringing a historical context to this crucial discussion of immigration reform. The immigration issue will not be solved by vilifying a population. The SPLC has just released a report on the upsurge in anti-immigrant, anti-Latino violence in the U.S.
United Stations Radio Networks has just announced that Dobbs will soon be hosting a three-hour daily talk radio show. The Web site claims, "It's not about what's right and left ... it's about what's right and wrong." Let's hope that Lou Dobbs follows his own advice.
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150 Comments so far
Show Allwith friends like dobbs,middle class americans,including the dreaded angry white guys,don't need enemies.until i watched lou on "democracy now",i had no concept of how really defensive and unhinged he actually is.the man is no debater,he's a bully pure and simple.how dare anyone criticize the manner in which he inflames the issue of immigration,how he misuses statistics,mistates facts,blames his errors on subordinates,or claims they weren't consequential enough for his august attention.the guy undressed himself right in front of juan,and amy.the interview was painful to watch,it must have been even harder to do.the projecting alone would have kept the crew at bellevue busy for a month.
I have never heard Lou dobbs say he was against legal immigration, or against people coming here with a green card and obtaining work. Neither am I against that. Commander N Chimps comments up there are outright lies about what Dobbs and I have said or how we feel. Of course he has already proven he is a liar. I have no idea of why he attacked my comments or me so viciously, we don't know one another and I do hope for his sake, he never meets me face to face. My distance vision is Okay.
You are a bigot because you state what bigots state and still hold on to your view of equating immigrants with terrorists. You have what others would term "color blind racism", and that is no pun based on your condition.
However, I am glad that you admit being legally blind, because that may well explain why you are also blind to facts as well as to my arguments stated above.
Not that I care what you think of me, but I do care what others may after reading your lies.
Where did I write that immigrants were terrorists? I said terrorists can cross our borders any time they wish. That's a fact. Terrorists are not legal or illegal immigrants, they could be illegal border crossers. You self impressed Moron.
"Dobbs is not against Mexcans coming to America, he is against anyone coming here illegally and taking jobs, so am I, so should we all be. He is against our unprotected borders, where any who may be a terrorist can walk right in."
The lie about taking jobs. Immigrants are contributing to the economy, and if you don't believe it come to Texas or California and witness it for yourself. Many cities in Texas are boomtowns with only the number of construction workers putting a limit on how much is going up.
Plain as day you are perpetuating the narrative that any possible immigrant is also a possible terrorist. Like Cheney, you too are a "one percenter" and following the one percent doctrine. Funny how the majority of terrorists who do make it to America come here legally, though, a fact that you fail to mention either out of ignorance or because it derails your "immigrants are terrorists, maybe perhaps probably" argument (I'm paraphrasing).
I hope we never do meet because I would never hurt a 70+ year old man, and a blind one at that. But if you do ever decide to come after me with violent intentions, I will give you the option of picking someone to fight for you.
You are obviously insane CHIMP. You still repeat the same lies. You sound just like some of the guests Lou Dobbs invites to debate on his program. Are you stupid, or do you have a serious reading comprehension problem?
I did not write that any immigrant is a possible terrorist. Those are your words and not what I wrote. Our most infamous terrorist may have been Timothy McVey. He was not an immigrant or here illegally.
Once again. A--terrorist--could--easily--cross--our--unprotected--and--open--borders--any--time--they--desire.____Many--criminals--and --drug--dealers--cross-illegally--every--single--day.___ I--know--because--we--live--seven--miles--from--the--border.___My--wife--is--a--LEGAL--immigrant.
Dobbs--is--not--against--LEGAL--immigrants--or--any--who--have--a--green--card--and--wish--to--come--to--America--and--find--work. ___ Neither--am--I--against--that.
Don't ever worry about our meeting, I won't worry about it either. But be thankful we won't. I can write that with just ample justificatin and knowledge, things you are totally unaware of. We may as well drop the subject altogether, as I find this debate to be absolutely worthless crap on your part and I'm done with it and you.
Ah, so you and Dobbs are cut from the same cloth: bigots who are married to immigrants. As I stated, that is called splitting or dissociation. And yes, I did call you a bigot because you do defend Dobbs, who is a bigot. Dobbs is a bigot because he repeats the same, centuries-old narratives of the danger of immigrants (legal or otherwise): that they are sexual deviants, carry diseases, contaminate our blood (with leprosy, a lie with which you apparently have no problem, since you are happy to ride Dobbs' jock), break our laws (never mind the fact that America has plenty of homegrown criminals), owe their allegiance to the Pope, want to steal States to add to Mexico (which is a classic example of projection, probably motivated by guilt of having stolen the Southwest from Mexico in the first place), or to take our jobs (which is another lie, but one with which you are comfortable).
So, yes you are a bigot and I'm glad I will never meet you by the rock, seven miles from the border, under which you live with your minger of a wife who hates you.
Not that anyone cares about my occasional opinion, but I think the commander_n_chimp has you on this one Kem.
Lou Dobbs, while having the redeeming quality of sometimes bringing some good information to the MSM and the brain dead masses, is, as I stated previously, noting more that a hack spewing pseudo-news analysis on a pseudo-news channel. His redeeming qualities do not make him less of a sensationalist.
The issue of illegal immigration in the USA is just another divisive distraction, as is all this tripe about the American Union conspiracy. Nothing more than more smoke screen, while fascism slowly creeps across the land, fear the swarthy brown skinned people, they are after your jobs, your land, your life, your god. Meanwhile the whole planet is going to hell in a corporate hand basket lead by the decedents of the European expansionists who have decimated everything they have touched in the past 600 years.
And by the way I stick by my original response to that troll Lisa, even if it did get removed.
He doesn' have me at all CHUNGA. I don't agree with all Lou Dobbs says and said so previously. I agree he is more good than most of the TV newscasters and brings up very importnat issues.
The Chimp there wrote things that I never, ever wrote or believe. He also attacked me personaly, because I don't happen to agree with his opinions. He is a very strange animal.
If you are going to defend that liar, first go back and read all of my posts and then his. I happen to agree with Dobbs opinions on our unprotected borders, because his opinions make sense. Dobbs is not, nor never has been against LEGAL immigration. Neither am I, in spite of the nuts lies. I also state anyone can cross our borders illegaly and SOME may be terrorists or criminals. That does not mean, ANY who do cross are terrorists or criminals. Come here legally, have a green card for legal work, or apply for citizenship as my wife did. Is that unreasonable? We need those legal immigrants and they are welcome. and Lou Dobbs nor I never said otherwise.
Dobbs raises a valid point about the open borders being a potential soft underbelly in dealing with 'terrorists'. Yes, an AQ member or whatever can slip through.
But the evidence (so far) shows that the ACTUAL terrorists have been crossing in the opposite direction. And not stopping at Mexico's southern border.
A Terrorist crossing the Mexican border, or the Canadian border, or floating in from the Pacific, Atlantic or Arctic Ocean is possible. But why focus on the Mexican border.
Perhaps they're only concerned with one type of terrorist. The NYC WTC brand of terrorist, not the OK City brand of terrorist. Perhaps because the former "can pass" for Mexicans? (That must be part of the reasoning). Then again, the OK City-type could easily pass undetected across the US-Canada border, using the same race-based reasoning.
So if the focus on border security is on the Southern border, race has a lot to do with it. But I think the US public (or at least the media's portrayal of it) can live with having OK City-type terrorists. They're just 'overzealous' and 'overly patriotic' red-blooded Americans who believed in 'states rights' and took it 'a little too far'. Those terrorists are part patriot (they attacked the bureaucracy, not like the brown terrorists who attacked financial and military centres).
A couple of definitions may help with this discussion.
-bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
-bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
I don't see how bringing attention to people from one country disregarding the laws of another country by sneaking into it and further circumventing the laws of that county in order to obtain jobs, health care, education etc. falls under either of these definitions.
That's all Lou Dobbs does with his "Broken Borders" series. Sure he's screwed up at times and had on some pretty idiotic guest and trusted some poor sources but he's usually made amends in those cases. Amy Goodman is guilty of the same type of screw ups and I think she probably makes an effort to set things right when necessary. I've listened to her and Lou Dobbs for several years. In my opinion, Lou Dobbs shows a much greater concern for the welfare of American citizens.
By the way, KEM I think you are making some great points. It's not about race. It's about legality.
Please, can't someone, anyone, talk about immigration by first stating why so many Mexicans are here? Isn't the issue first Free Trade and privatization...the compromising of Mexico's social safety net, etc? This is the issue and a campaign issue at that. Can you imagine Ms. Goodman talking about the impact multinational corps have had on the Mexican economy for the past 30yrs which in part has led to OUR immigration problem? So with business and government acting hand in hand, one can simply implement policies that DO NOT WORK then criminalize the outcome. This is scapegoating to the highest degree. "Mexicans! Oh my god, NO!" For one, if you are against our influx of Mexicans then you must be against the privatization of our social security system. This is OUR social safety net which Mexicans no longer have or is weak at best. You also have to stand up against the privatization of our natural resources(i.e. WATER!) , right? I mean you don't want to become 'Amexican' in a foreign land, do you? These are sort of the real issues, not 'where I got to church', or 'if I go at all'. Bye.
lisa December 5th, 2007 4:51 pm
"I see an awful lot of knee-jerk liberal criticism of Lou Dobbs here. Whether you like his style or hate it, he has shined a light on a whole bunch of very real issues that no one else in the mainstream media dared to touch with a ten-foot pole."
A Latino friend was over for dinner last week and we were watching Lou Dobbs. When he started talking about the immigration issue, she immediately got defensive and said she can't stand him because he is nothing but a racist and bigot.
My response was: If you would listen to and focus on what he has to say about all the major issues he talks about, you might be able to see that his goal is to educate us on a variety of problems that are interrelated. The immigration problem is only one of many created by the failure of poorly designed trade agreements which have largely benefited the super-wealthy while displacing average citizens under the agreements.
If it weren't for Lou Dobbs and a few others who have the audacity to talk about issues important to the survival of this country, Presidential candidates would be avoiding these real issues as they have done for decades, which is why we are on the brink of economic disaster in this country. Fortunately, Lou Dobbs has been able to help people put the pieces of the puzzle together.
Yes, Zydeco, this is also a legal issue. But Dobbs nevertheless focuses on Mexican traffic into the US.
I would like him, in his many attacks on Congress, to take up the issue of health care by highlighting the substantial number of border Americans who (illegally, though similarly out of necessity) have provincial health care in Canada.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that issue comes up. First, it's a "low-blow jab" at pharmaceutical companies, who he won't attack due to his demographic. Second, the issue involves good Americans breaking the law of another country.
Yes there are many more Mexicans 'illegals' in the US, then American health care 'fraud artists' in Canada. (Maybe that's just because most of the 40+ million uninsured don't live close enough to the border to pull the scam off.)
Point being, as with the Americans who illegally have health care in Canada, the Mexicans break their host country's laws in order to survive. In each case, their own country is unwilling/unable to provide for them.
"Fortunately, Lou Dobbs has been able to help people put the pieces of the puzzle together."
And what is the picture?
I am not aware of any terrorists entering our country legally or illegaly. It is possible, at any border or by sea, land or air.
What we mostly hate to see, is the open borders, poorly guarded, where drug dealers and criminals come across daily. We had a good friend who was attacked, she was stabbed several times and her young daughter was severely beaten and their car stolen by illegals who had crossed the border illegally. They were caught when they wrecked the car. Two other friends, newly weds, were killed, when hit head on by a stolen van, full of fourteen illegals, who were speeding at over 100 miles an hour and ran a red light.
We have several friends who are Border Patrol Agents and they catch drug runners frequently. Sometimes shots are fired by the drug runners. They are vicious people who don't belong here. That is one of several reasons why we need to have better protection of our borders. I feel for those who only wish to come here and work.__Come legally, get a green card. ___How unfair is that?
"That's all Lou Dobbs does with his "Broken Borders" series. Sure he's screwed up at times and had on some pretty idiotic guest and trusted some poor sources but he's usually made amends in those cases."
So Dobbs apologizes for repeatedly (the key phrase) having racists on his show or as guests and propagandizing for their websites and that makes things hunky dory? I don't think so.
The difference between Juan Gonzalez talking about the same criminal racists and Lou Dobbs was this one (the crux of the matter, in my opinion): when Gonzalez talks about racists such as the Council of Conservative Citizens it is to denounce them and expose them. When Dobbs talks about or airs video from those knuckle dragging evolutionary throwbacks at the CCC, it is to promote their beliefs. That is a tremendous difference, and if one cannot see it, well then one just might be legally blind.
"I am not aware of any terrorists enterin [sic] gour [sic] country legally or illegaly [sic]. It is possible, at any border or by sea, land or air. "
You obviously must have been in a medically induced coma the month of September 2001. The terrorists who committed the acts on that day entered here legally, by the way. Oh, some other ones tried to attack Seattle but they were stopped at the supposed "unpatrolled" Canadian border by, gasp, border patrol agents. Imagine that. More of your lies exposed.
Kem - I am a slow writer, my comment was made in reverence to several posts back, I should probably not get in the middle of two posters insulting each other. Bad business that.
Regardless I take issue with the idea that the decedents of the original inhabitants of the America's can somehow be classified as illegal immigrants by the decedents of the European invaders who came to this continent and brought with them the destruction of thousands of years of independent human evolution, wiped out civilizations from North America to Peru, with their filthy diseases, and then subjugated and enslaved the remnants of those populations. Genocide on a monumental scale. We of European decent have not legitimate claim to the land of the Americas against the descendants of those we decimated.
As for the irrational fear of terrorists, drug dealers and other criminals crossing our boarders, all I can say is, those are the least of our worries, the real terrorist, drug dealers and criminals have been running this country for decades.
Don't waste good electrons defending the likes of Lou Dobbs Kem. He is not worthy of your words!
In resolve, if we do not FIRST talk about what triggered this great migration/influx then we will make the problem worse, you dig! This is a simple truth. Even more $s will be wasted and stolen.
Ramsay Mameesh December said:
"Lisa:
Don't call me liberal - it's an insult.
Liberals are closet racists - Conservatives are out of the closet racists."
Conservatives = Cheney, Hitler, Stalin
Liberals = Jesus, Gandhi, Lennon
Aren't we both at certain times?
"A liberal is a conservative who's been arrested". Tom Wolfe
PAULITICS --
Point taken and agreed with -- the host country bears the responsibility of caring for its citizens. That's why I feel our government has a responsibility to us to control our borders.
As much as I sympathize with illegal immigrants and the situations they are living in, I don't condone there activity. I'm also in complete disagreement with any Americans stealing from Canadian citizens by running a scam on their health care system. I would have no problem with Canada bringing their legal system down on those people.
Gail - Sorry but Mr. Dobbs has no such high ambitions as trully educating poor ignorant US. He only cares about his ratings. He is a sensationalist, and not wrthy to wipe the dog crap off of Amy Goodmans shoes.
The influx of Mexicans into the us is nothing new, and the increase over the past several years is the direct result of bas US policy. But then again most of the problems we are facing in this country today is the result of bad US policy. I love it when John Q Public asks, why do the Arabs hate us? Just look at US policy in the middle east since WWI, you would have US too, if you were one of them!
Irrational fear of brown skinned people is racism, plain and simple. Lou Dobbs is a hack, plain and simple. Illegal immigration is an intentionally divisive issue and a distraction from the real issues, plain and simple!
I completely agree with you Kem on the issue of criminals and the potential for terrorists. Especially on crime, because that is WELL DOCUMENTED (I'm sad to hear about the violence in your area and affecting your life, BTW). But I believe terrorism is more of a scare tactic, and the fact that it is only directed toward a population in which they believe terrorists can blend in.
I suppose the question is whether or not one believes that the majority (or a substantial number) of the migrants are criminals (as Dobbs sometimes lets on and some of his guests espouse elsewhere) or come to work and support people in their home country. Though I'd be hard pressed to come up with proof of this, I believe that getting certain work permits (maybe not green cards, if they are administered by the US) that are administered by the Mexican govt may invite their allocation being politicized. And only people who know certain people get those work permits (like temporary agricultural work).
I can't decide what those of you who write in ugly comments so often are really looking for. The only thing I can say is that you are often entertaining in your ignorant comments.
And as far as Lisa and some others above who are like her, she is correct all the way. She gets it and you don't.
Wow busterkikki you are so insightful. Thank you for pointing out the error of our ignorant knee jerk liberal ways. I shall immediately search my tivo for all those insightful Lou Dobbs broadcasts I have been missing.
Here's Lisa's quote, which could have been written from someone chained up in Plato's cave, with Lou Dobbs behind her, projecting the shadow of an object shaped like the sun on the cave's wall:
"Whether you like his style or hate it, he has shined a light on a whole bunch of very real issues that no one else in the mainstream media dared to touch with a ten-foot pole."
What Lou Dobbs has done is spouted cleverly disguised racism on an important issue to work up people's emotions. There's nothing special about that.
I was so looking forward to watching the "Democracy Now"! debate with Lou Dobbs. I now have mixed feeling after viewing it. It was painful to watched Dobbs pummeled Juan Gonzalez. Juan, had to hit back harder, and forget the historical context he was trying to engage Dobbs with. Juan, should have revert back to the fighting spirit of the Young lords.
nymet, my feelings and thoughts exactly. I don't know why Juan Gonzalez kept praising Dobbs' (supposed) intelligence.
The flood of immigrants from Mexico and the rest of Latin America is a symptom of a disease, which is global corporatism. You can build a fence, build a wall, shoot anyone who comes across it, or just give up and hand out green cards at the border. The situation is just ungovernable because governments are powerless before their corporate masters.
We are the people, us and the immigrants, and we are all being exploited. It doesn't matter to corporatists what happens to any of us, as long as they get the best deal they can on labor.
We should be in solidarity with working people everywhere, but we let corporations and their government and media toadies divide us by income, sex, race, and nationality. We all get turned into mean little money-grubbing haters as a result, just like they are.
keyricster --
I think our government's lack of preventative action more for than 30 years is the root of this problem. Mexico is rich in natural resources and should be a very prosperous country. Corruption in the Mexican government and our government's desire to attain their resources (which includes their people) at the benefit of corrupt corporations and to the detriment of the citizens of each country is what's fueling this debate. Big government + corporate greed = a suffering citizenry (as you put it "policies that DO NOT WORK...." It sucks! Now it's up to the citizens to take responsibility for their government and set them right. We are in a much better situation than many other countries when it comes to changing our government.
In my opinion, our current situation dictates strict enforcement of our immigration laws, restoring our production capacity, using more of our own resources and promoting a strong, vibrant middle-class. Then our economy will be strong enough to handle large numbers of immigrants and better situated to make certain immigration happens legally.
Obviously that's a simplified approach but I think you can get the gist.
Ah yes, Dobbs spouts cleverly disguised racism, and Lisa gets it, er, um, well I guess not really. Actually she and those who agree with her totally miss that. They see a magnificent defender of the American way, bravely pointing to the evils of the brown skinned menace.
We're acting like dogs fighting over table scrapes, that the coruptofascists purposely let fall, to keep us off balance and angry.
Consider the following, which I see as incontestable points:
FACT: immigrants (legal and otherwise) have always been a + plus + to the balance of any country's economy, and ALL credible research shows that. They work extraordinarily hard paying taxes, taking avail of few services (out of fear), and they support family members still in their home country. We need more people with family values, right?
FACT: immigrants will compete for any jobs available, but have significant disadvantages (little opportunity for school or learning English well) over most with a high school education born in the USA.
FACT: education is failing native Americans, so even when in the system there is no guarantee of a job. This means that staying competitive requires one learning say a second language, or becoming proficient in computers and technology.
In order to be a "good consumer" and feed the coruptofascist's beast, one must produce something of values for wages, regardless of how twisted the opportunities and fairness are. Many w/o talents "win" while those w/o the ability to 'game the gaming system' "lose" - and justifiably are upset.
The bigger picture here is why are there only scraps off the table, instead of all of us being on the table?
The market and opportunity gradients are keep down for the disenfranchised and working class people who are this country's base, as a method of control. Racial tensions and preying upon natural fears of the unknown, are well known divisive techniques used to control us and consume our focus away from the puppet masters of the beast.
It works very well, and they know it.
For any who believe that closed borders work "wonders", you might ask some of the East Germans who risked their lives to get out, before the Berlin wall came down.
I believe that the beast masters want that wall -- real bad -- for the same reasons that the communists did, as 'we cannot let you go', or risk losing what little is left of this country's productive workforce.
Stand above the divisiveness and look compassionately on the manipulation that is wrought upon us.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
And here on the 80th post of this meaningless thread we may come to realize why the immigration issues' sole purpose is to divide and distract.
I call Dobb's a racist, Lisa calls me a knee-jerk liberal, commander_n_chimp and KEM PATRICK challenge each other to fist fights.
The bait's been swallowed hook, line, and sinker. We're arguing, while the country is being destroyed, por que?
Immigration, terrorism, gay marriage, Britney Spears, stem cell research, missing white girls, the war on drugs, and on and on. Issues meant to distract and divide.
Someone's profiting, and it ain't you or me, so why argue?
Ramsay
Kudos to Zydeco and nspire. You both get it.
p.s. If you read closely, I said I would fight anyone Kem Patrick would send against me. I would have problems with fighting someone 70+ years old or with a sight disability. But I did say I would fight anyone he might send against me. And yes, of course, I meant unarmed combat.
Ramsay Mameesh !! Way to go ... i couldnt have said it better ... the hate that spewed out of Prop 187 still festers ...
Satya
"I was really angered at Dobbs's dismissive attitude toward Juan Gonzalez,"
I heard the interview too and Dobbs is an asshole who has learnt his right-wing tactics very well. His tone made my skin crawl.
Perhaps I missed something just reading the transcript of the interview. I actually thought Amy and Juan came off as sounding very shrill and silly. If Dobbs' tone may have come across as somewhat condescending and irate toward the end, I suppose I could accept that as natural given that he was answering the same questions over and over again.
RED JEFF, ZYDECO, and RAMSAY -- I believe we have a consensus and alignment on essential contextual and inherent issues as well as gov'tal camouflaging tactics, and the great malaise upon us all.
The minor differences of opinion are just that, and need not stand between us "proactive forces for change", and changing things for the better.
Those attempting to pull our strings (while pushing our buttons, while getting our knickers into a twist, while being generally offensive … … …) -- can go !*&*^%#$^ themselves AND the horse they rode in on.
Wow, I am gone for three hours and people are talking about fighting! Look, everyone has an opinion about which obviously they are passionate. We may not agree with each other, but it is no reason to resort to ad hominem attacks. Come on people, we are much better than that. I must agree with Ramsay Mameesh that this is exactly what the neocons want us to do. They pit us against each other so we are busy fighting with each other instead of focusing on the issues at hand. If we disagree with each other, let's do it in a cordial way, but stay focused on the issues. Deal?
The truth is not dependent on the messenger.
A large part of the debate is really about definitions.
I don't watch Mr. Dobbs because he has nothing to offer me that I can't from get a closer source (ie. investigative jounalist etc.).
I read the transcript of the interview, I understood the criticism of Dobbs statements, but they seemed intent on getting him to admit he was wrong. Well fine, but not of much interest to me though. I've talked with some of those "angry white men" referred to earlier, you can't change their minds. They're too afraid and beyond reason. As for Dobbs ... well, what ever.
Chunga,
While I was scrolling down reading the comments, I was thinking of adding something just about like this:
"I take issue with the idea that the decedents of the original inhabitants of the America's can somehow be classified as illegal immigrants by the decedents of the European invaders who came to this continent and brought with them the destruction of thousands of years of independent human evolution, wiped out civilizations from North America to Peru, with their filthy diseases, and then subjugated and enslaved the remnants of those populations."
But since you already put it there for me, I wanted to thank you, and re-post it. A-ho!
KEM,
Would've never thought I'd say this as I always enjoy your posts and humor, but you're off base here. And for the first time, I have to admit I agree with the chimp, at least when it comes to calling Dobbs a thinly veiled racist. Though I must add his posts usually make my goddamned teeth hurt, and I think he's off-base painting you with the same brush as Dobbs. Which is to say my feeling is you're a long way from being a racist, but again, I think Dobbs is.
Boy,
This thread is really heated. It's time to douse the fire with some real serious considerations and questions. So let's slowly back away from the knee-jerk stuff and consider the reality for a moment.
I have very mixed feelings about this notion of illegal immigration. As Texas residents, we deal with the issue up close and personal daily. No one is naive enough to believe that many construction workers, restaurant workers, etc. were born in the US. Okay, so many small business owners say that they could not afford to be in business without employing undocumented workers. They claim that they can't get native born citizens to work for minimum wage, at least they can't get reliable people. Okay so does that say something about our minimum wage rate?
Now let's say that a small business owner is willing to pay a real living wage to hire a US citizen to work. Even those who aren't in business realize that the price of the goods would have to increase. That's fine and really the way it should be. But what I see is that many people want very low prices for goods and services but don't realize what it takes to get them at the price point they're comfortable with. Is it that you have US born workers who in some cases are not willing to pluck chickens for minimum wage but undocumented workers who are willing to do so at lower than minimum wage? I don't know, but people have got to realize that if you rid this country of all undocumented workers, you will pay higher prices. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
I wonder how much the price of a new home would be impacted if the construction would be done completely by US citizens?
Also, I don't get why people can't see that all this illegal immigration is actually the symptom of a bigger problem. I wonder why don't we pressure the Mexican government more to foster better living conditions in Mexico so that people wouldn't be so desperate as to risk their very lives to come here and clean toilets for $6.00/hr. (if that much).
Believe me, if you come to one of the major shopping malls in Houston on any given weekend, you will see a very different class of native Mexicans, loaded with shopping bags from expensive stores and guess what, they seem to have no problem with living in Mexico. Their cars proudly bear Mexican license plates. So what's really going on here?
And what about NAFTA and other so called "free trade" policies? What role have they played? Hint: Mexican migration to the United States has risen to 500,000 a year from less than 400,000 in the early 1990s, before Nafta. (from "Nafta Should Have Stopped Illegal Immigration, Right?, New York Times, February 18th 2007).
Listen, we do ourselves a major disservice with the type of rhetoric that's gone back and forth today. Peel away these layers and let's get to the real. Then maybe we can come up with some real solutions.
Peace
Dobbs is not as far-right politically as some may suspect, but he is certainly an opportunist and hypocrite of the highest degree..If he is such a populist and cares so much for the people of Mexico he might do something to tone down the racist rhetoric on his show..he maybe right in that he never explicitly says anything racist, but if any redneck reads between the lines s/he will be watching an affirmation of every white supremacist hate-mongering belief they've ever had. By the way, the title of this article sounds like a great name for a Dr. Seuss book. How the Dubious Dobbs Stole America??
Well guess I'm full of shit again DRIFT. I really did believe, that we should only allow legal entry of anyone into our country. That is what I have posted here on this subject. I appreciate your kind remarks about me though.
After taking a vote here, adding the pros and cons, the pros that Dobbs is wrong win hands down. I guess you guys and gals are right. What we should do, is just totally forget we have any borders and not worry about who crosses them anymore. Might as well do the same at airports or any once port of entry. That would save a lot of money for certain.
Another is to allow any to enter the United States and work wherever they wish, don't even ask if they are Americans, wanted criminals or any other questions.
Just say, "Okay bud or gal, you're here, fine, you want a job okay." If every year a hundred and fifty million or more from Mexico and South American, China, Korea, Africa, Hati, Japan, etc, wherever, want to come here and work, or just have fun, or even commit crimes, __ it's okay.
After all, our ancestors stole this country from the Indians, and I won't argue that point, for it's true. Maybe anyone who was born here in the United States who is not Indian, should be reqired to get out, leave! We don't have a true right to be here, because our rotten ancestors stole this country in the first place.
In other words, we shouldn't have any restrictions at all of who lives in the United States. It really would be a free country, free for any and all. That may work, that's what most of you are advocating anyway if you sat back and thought about what you wrote here. Of course I'm never certain of the bloggers here, who is an American citizen or not.
Then one blogger here, explained to this rather ignorant, undereducated, blind, dunce af a child, that we already have lots of criminals and we shouldn't worry about those drug runners or criminals, muggers, theives, murderers, etc, coming here illegally. Okay you win, obviously I'm a shit head for suggesting and giving a couple of prime examples, that criminals coming across our open borders is a bother, perhaps even a serious problem. I never thought of, we alredy have criminals here, and a few dozen more every day isn't a problem. ___ Silly me.
You smart wizards should all write to that puffed up jerk Dobbs and explain that he is full of shit too, and he should stop talking about our open borders and concentrate on important things, like the coming election, or did he ever see or hear Paris Hilton fart in church.
Oh Claudius, I agree this should be civil and fun, but I never start a pissing contest BTW. That Chimp guy is an asshole and proved it when he made very insulting remarks about my wife, who has nothng whatsoever to do with this site. I can joke about her, but no one should be so assinine as to then take hurtful shots at her. Of course she'll never see it, and I can assure all, she's a wonderfl gal.
I am beginning to worry if I am a progressive, I don't think I fit this particular forum at all.
7000 cases of leprosy over 30 years or 7000 cases over 3 years, its still a troublesome figure. There can be no doubt that Romans and Dobbs misspoke about the time, but what is more important is that illegal aliens are not checked for this disease or any other. Leprosy is a contagious illness, and as a result one person entering the country with it can be the distributor to many others.
Legal immigrants are screened for this type of thing, so Dobbs point about illegals bringing illness into the country is well taken.
One friggin more from the idiot. I never mentioned I would fist fight with anyone. I did say it would be better if he and I never met face to face, and it would be. Never would I have dreamed any would be so attacked in such a nean fashion for having a diverse opinion here at Common Dreams. I often have written back at others who started a shit fight and have written rude comments in reply. I don't start them, I may be cynical, or attempt to be humerous, but this person is a sick jerk. Anyway, for your pleasure, I am finished here.
I was not at all familiar with Lou Dobbs until I saw this report (I stopped watching television 7 years ago.) This is an example of how intelligence does not bestow morality. Lou Dobbs was articulate and emotionally convincing, even in the face of contrary evidence. The reason Lou Dobbs is a problem is because he is using his power to fuel the fire without honesty. This is the same reason that I don't like Michael Moore. Yes corporations are bad, people need healthcare, canada is safer, etc... But why lie about the statistics and make fools of people not expecting an onslaught? Responsibility increases in proportion to privileges. I don't mind so much that my Grandmother raised out in the hills of Tennessee believes that immigrants bring disease and drugs. She doesn't know any better. The intelligent, well-educated, articulate, well-informed man on the TV, who claims sincerity and objectivity by prefacing every other statement with "the reality is," told her so. That doesn't help.
KEM -- Please stay, we need your wisdom and humor. Really, if you're "not progressive" than neither am I.
I accept the need for borders, inspections, and control over criminals entering.
I was hoping to de-polarize this highly emotional set of issues, as
BOOKSENSE said "I don't get why people can't see that all this illegal immigration is actually the symptom of a bigger problem."
Let's all get some sleep and look at this again with fresh eyes and clear sight.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
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Okay folks, it is clear that I am not wanted here. Frankly, I do not wish to post on a message board where "progressives" state that Lou Dobbs is "a good man" when it is clear to me that he is a thinly veiled bigot. A defender of a bigot for his bigotted views is, by definition, a bigot. I make no apologies for what I posted above, but from now on I will stick to reading the articles and not making comments.
One more thing, when I picked out my handle commander_n_chimp, I did so because it mocked George W. Bush's simian appearance and his affinity for the title "commander-in-chief". Never did I believe that some people here would actually think there was a real chimp in a Napoleon uniform typing away behind a keyboard or hold the name against me. Apparently, I was wrong about those people.
For everyone else, have a nice 2008.
Commander - If I come put up a tent on your property and tap into your water and sewer system (without permission nor compensation, of course) you won't have a problem with that ?
Would it matter what color my skin is ?