Bush Commits Troops to Iraq For The long Term
· Deal to provide mandate for military beyond 2008
· US oil companies likely to benefit from proposals
The Bush administration formally committed America yesterday to a long-term military presence in Iraq, pledging to protect the government in Baghdad from internal coup plots and foreign enemies.
The cooperation pact, endorsed by George Bush and the Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, during a video conference yesterday morning, will set the agenda for a future American relationship with Iraq, the administration’s adviser on Iraq and Afghanistan, General Douglas Lute, told reporters at the White House.
“The two negotiating teams, Iraq and the United States, now have a common sheet of music with which to begin the negotiations,” Lute said.
The military, economic and diplomatic agreement would commit US forces to defending the government of Iraq from internal and external threats as well as fighting al-Qaida and “all other outlaw groups regardless of affiliation”, according to the declaration of principles released by the White House yesterday.
In return, Iraq pledged itself to “encouraging the flow of foreign investments to Iraq, especially American investments, to contribute to the reconstruction and rebuilding of Iraq”. The promise was immediately seen as a potential bonanza for American oil companies.
Lute offered few details on the scale of future US troop levels in Iraq or permanent US bases. He noted that the agreement, because it was not a treaty, would not be subject to oversight by Congress. “What US troops are doing, how many troops are required to do that, are bases required, which partners will join them - all these things are on the table,” he said.
Yesterday’s agreement was announced as Maliki indicated he intended to seek the renewal of the UN security council mandate for Iraq for one more year when it expires in December. The agreement has been in the works since last August, when the Maliki government officially requested the long-term strategic relationship with Washington.
The public unveiling of the proposed arrangement yesterday arrived at a time when the administration has been trying to showcase recent improvements in security in Iraq following the deployment of an additional 30,000 US troops at the beginning of the year.
Some of those forces are scheduled to begin leaving Iraq by the end of this year following the drop in violence. The rest are due to be withdrawn by the summer of 2008, although there has been little sign of the political reconciliation which was the main objective of the surge strategy.
Instead, the administration yesterday appeared to be urging Americans to look to American and Iraqi negotiators’ hopes of producing a broader agreement on their partnership next summer.
The timetable for negotiations indicated by Lute would see the state department open negotiations early next year. That all but ensures that Iraq will dominate next year’s US presidential elections.
© 2007 The Guardian
Bush must be committed to prison for the long term. Planet likely to benefit from proposal.
What a hoot. “Negotiating teams.” Ha! What negotiating power does the conquered and occupied govenment of Iraq have? The same power that France’s Vichy regime had with the Nazis, obviously. It gets even funnier - the US will protect Iraq from external threats! And Iraq will encourage foreign investment as a token of its appreciation for such protection! Damn! Is this gloriously hilarious or what? No comedian could spout these lines with a straight face. And we are expected to accept this nonsense? Iraq has no government and this agreement merely formalizes the American seizure of the natural resources of Iraq. The United Nations has a charter that forbids agressive war and war profiteerng but obviously the United Nations is a joke, and a very bad joke indeed.
His act yesterday, a treaty essentially, will ‘almost’ insure we never leave Iraq. Of course as all are fully aware, he and his backers never intended to leave anyway.
When I was seven I wanted very much to join the crew of a pirate ship. Seven years as a citizen of Bush’s America have taught me to be careful what I wish for.
When I was seven I wanted very much to join the crew of a pirate ship. Seven years as a citizen of Bush’s America have taught me to be careful what I wish for.
Why don’t we just call this agreement what it really is. It’s an agreement with a few elite people in Baghdad to to make Iraq an American colony. They may actually get this agreement signed but you can bet that the first generation of Iraqi children born under colonial governance will be the start of the revolution.
Our government is supposed to be the government of our country, not the whole godamm world. The founding fathers didn’t intend for us to be an empire. We were supposed to be getting away from all that oppressive rule.
Read Jack London’s IRON HEEL. It will give you a glimpse of things to come.
Hoa binh
This agreement is exactly what Naomi Klein claimed the entire invasion (armed robbery) was about in her “Shock Doctrine.” Klein is one smart cookie.
Iraq need not “dominate” next year’s elections, unless Democrats and progressives are just stupid. The issues that can and should win the 2008 election for liberals are domestic, domestic, domestic. After that election is won, foreign affairs will not be at the discretion of the Bush/Cheney boys, IF WE HAVE SENSE ENOUGH TO WIN IT.
Bush/Cheney should be impeached then tried for treason!
SHOULD BE ___ WILL BE ___ are two different phrases.
What do Americans really want? Do they want to be honourable and fair and just? Or do they want to merely describe themselves that way? Do they want to strongly protest their government’s actions, while at the same time pampering themselves with 50% of the world’s resources?
You can’t have it both ways. Bush is always saying he is ’spreading democracy and freedom’, while at the same time plundering, torturing and oppressing.
This site exposes the hypocracies of the Bush administration, and the comments here always express outrage at his actions. But how serious is that outrage? How far does it take you in your daily lives? Is it real, or is it only lip service to who you are pretending to be?
Would any of the people here give up all the perks Bush is providing to you? Would you deny yourselves the weath you enjoy every day? Are you willing to fight your unjust administration as resourcefully as the Iraqi insurgents fight Bush in Iraq? Do you have that much conviction, that much courage?
I really want to know. If the people who write comments here are not really prepared to do anything other than complain, then certainly no one else will either. In that case it would be more honest to just keep quiet, and indulge in the spoils of war that you really enjoy so much.
Well written and directly to the point Malfoyd, I can only tip my hat! It is the very place where I find myself, living in Germany (since 1980)I thought I could hide but there really is no place to hide now is there! If we in the so called 1st world do not stand up and say enough is enough, and yes the world is kinda looking to the USA for direction, then we should shut our mouths and enjoy the ride to our self made hell.
Well I guess they [neo-con fascist,international elite]figure they’ve killed enough of the Iraqi’s that don’t want to be occupied by a foreign power. And can now have their way with them. Kind of like a rape victim that no longer has the energy or will to fight back.
All it has cost is our manufacturing base, our financial solvency for the forseeable future, our morals as human beings and so on and so forth.
It is by no means a done deal.
War crimes trials for those who peretrated this holocaust. Restitution to those who hae been unjustly harmed, paid for by the ones who promoted and benefitted from it.
MALFOYD, you are preaching to the wrong audience. For example, Cindy Sheehan is one of us and she gets arrested for attempting to see Conyers. The bloggers who comment here are in the vast minority, we cannot control the press and media, we do attempt to provoke them by pricking and jabbing their conscience. We hopefully are the beginning of a peaceful yet effective revolution. Your comments are neither fair nor helpful. ___ You do have the absolute right to post them.
“US generals admit Iraq occupation will last 10 to 50 years, up to 2057″
http://www.chycho.com/?q=iraq_2057
“According to retired Army Gen. John Abizaid, “It might take as long as half a century before U.S. troops can leave the volatile Middle East.” Abizaid’s estimates are 40 years longer then the previous prediction by General David Petraeus that “US troops ‘could be in Iraq for a decade’”. This means that according to the “top coalition commander” in Iraq and the “former commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East”, who happens to be the “longest-serving commander of U.S. Central Command”, the United States will be occupying Iraq anywhere from 2017 all the way up to 2057.
If this doesn’t shock you then wait until you see what the expected death toll is for the next ten years.”
Malfoyd
I don’t buy the idea that voicing outrage at this site is merely paying lip service to our values as opposed to real action. Here we commiserate, we preach to the choir, and I’ll grant you that this doesn’t accomplish much. But most of us are also politically active in our lives and our organizations, and put our energies into shifting the opinions of the people we encounter. This process, also made entirely of talk, HAS been effective in countering Washington propaganda and discrediting the authors of the Iraq war.
I’m not sure what kind of action, what kind of “fight” you are proposing. Armed rebellion? Are you suggesting that we set IEDs for Bush partisans like our brother insurgents in Iraq? Who, exactly, should we target? Please clarify by what omissions we have disappointed you.
What is this, one of us crap? Is it really them and us or do you real think it is so straight forward as that? It is really about taking direct responsibility for your part, we here in the so called 1st world all have to much…period. Cindy uses actions, after she lost her son, do we all first need to lose a son? I agree with Malfoyd because of the experience of the 60s and 70s, when enough son’s were lost we as a people said no more!
Kem Patrick, you seem to know about the right audience, the one I should be addressing. Tell me where to find it.
Certainly you won’t direct me to the 70+ percent of Americans who claim to disapprove of Bush and his policies. Those people are already converted, right? The vast majority of your democratic country are well aware that your foreign policy is criminal, that your constitution has been shredded, that your people are more spied on and documented than any Russian or East German ever was. So the majority of your citizens already know that the wealth they enjoy is derived from the blood and sacrificed freedom of the world’s poor. No need to talk to them, right? They already know. But what are they doing? Overthrowing the government they despise, or filling up their grocery carts with Twinkies.
Who should I be talking to? The media, owned by the same corporate masters who own every member of Congress and every member of the Senate, not to mention Bush himself? Not Cheney, of course, who is in fact the owner of them all. Who should I talk to?
‘Peaceful yet effective revolution’. Please! Give me a break. You are planning to politely persuade these criminals to give up their control?? If you say just the right thing to them, they’re going to see the light. That’s your plan? With your ‘peaceful but effective revolution’ you are going to defeat people who slaughter a million Iraqis for sport? No. Those people sprinkle ‘peaceful revolutions’ on their corn flakes.
No. I’m afraid not. If you want to re-gain the America you idealize, you’re going to have to get your hands dirty, and maybe a little bloody. Same as your last revolution, when they had to get thier hands dirty and bloody. And you’re going to have to expect a much more sparce existence than what you enjoy now.
But you’re right about one thing. It’s not you I should be talking to.
The best part of this deal is the US pledge to protect the Iraq-Namese regime from all threats foreign and domestic.
Read it for yourself, and weep
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/11/20071126-11.html
voxclamatis, First of all, I’m asking, ‘What is the will of the American people?’
If you believe the polls, the Bush administration is not fulfilling the will of the people, but I wonder if perhaps Bush isn’t the only hypocrite. Perhaps the polls portray a protesting population that is in reality very satisfied with the service they are getting from this administration. They don’t like the methods, but they demand the results. In that case, Americans are getting just what they want, and they should be honest enough to enjoy it without all this fake protest.
On the other hand if they really are outraged; if their will is in fact not being done, then they should have the balls to stand up and take their government back. I don’t see anything like this happening.
That’s what I’m saying.
Vidikun Quisling was the Nazi appointed head of Norway during the war. He welcomed the Nazis and their help to stay in power. The Nazis recognized him as the head of the Norwegian government.
When the Nazis were finally expelled from Norway, the Norwegians hanged Quisling.
Quisling’s name lives on in the lexicon as a synonym for a “leader” appointed by an occupying force.
Bush has concluded a “treaty” with the Iraqi quisling government. Hopefully, such a treaty will not be recognized by the Senate, so it will die stillborn, but with this Senate, who knows?
Eventually, the Iraqi People, with or without the help of their friends and neighbors, will throw out the US appointed and supported quisling government and said treaty will become null and void. Hopefully, so will the occupation.
Europe gets it. It’s all about personal responsibility.
Malfoyd…I understand what you are saying. May I ask what you suggest as our first move…our initial action, if you will.
The vast majority of Americans are concerned that the war in Iraq is causing havoc with their wallets. That is what they primarily disapprove of MALFOYD. And as for not talking to me, I really don’t let it bother me who you speak or write to. Rave on, this still is a free country. __ So far anyway.
If you wish to know who to preach to, it’s the American press.
Malfoyd has many valid arguments concerning individual participation in society. And he rightfully asks “What do Americans really want”? It’s a question we should all be willing to honestly answer. I left America twenty years ago. I didn’t leave to change America. I left to change myself. I was more than tired of being one of them. And over the years I continue to witness America’s Constitution, and resulting Democracy, being the prey of deranged and greedy businessmen. Today, with the willing help of the mainstream media, our Democracy is a joke. If it was really “We the people”, would “we” be putting over two million of “us” in prison every day?
What individuals do, does count.
Hoa binh
Since 1492…2 million a day?…
Maliki is a stooge….the goal was always for a permanent presence until the last drop of oil is siphoned out. The military bases there are staging areas for more resource theft in neighbouring Iran. Watch for more body bags to return to the US.
Malfoyd, I have to agree with Kem Patrick. You say “Certainly you won’t direct me to the 70+ percent of Americans who claim to disapprove of Bush and his policies. Those people are already converted, right?” Not so. They disapprove of his policies because they know it’s a waste of money and they know we’ve lost in Iraq. But the vast majority of Americans still believe that we are trying to “liberate” Iraq and spread freedom across the world. They have no sense of American imperialism, and are completely unconscious of the concept of American exceptionalism. I recently raised these issues in response to a posting on a non-political site, a cross-section of average America, and I was absolutely reamed. You think people know the constitution is being shredded? An overwhelming theme in the comments I received was “our boys are fighting in Iraq to protect our constitution”!!!! The average person here has no clue. So the chance for any kind of revolution in slim, the population would simply not be behind it.
What does Hillary and Edwards and Obama say to this?
Silence?
Malfoyd, you’re on the wrong damned soapbox! Tell us exactly what you’re doing to right the wrongs the bush adminstration has perpetrated on us and the world. If you’re saying we should pick up arms to fight this immoral cabal, then you go right ahead. I personally don’t think we’re not at that point yet. If we ever are, I may feel differently. But right now I vote my conscience, support those whom I think can make a worthy difference, live my life with as little impact on mother earth as I can, am politically active, speak what I think needs to be said even when it’s not popular, and respect my fellow man as I’d like him to respect me.
By the way, what “perks” is bush providing us: illegal war without end, illegal wiretapping, secret prisons, stolen civil liberties, stacking of the courts with righ-wing ideologues, a soviet style propaganda machine, torture, death of habaeus corpus, crushing dissent? Are those the “perks” you’re referring to? As for the spoils of war, tell that to the grieving families who have lost loved ones to bush’s folly. Tell that to the soldiers who are still in harms way because their commander-in-chief is a moronic warmongor. Tell that to soldiers who have to figh the VA tooth and nail just for what they’re owed. Tell that to the soldiers who will have to live the rest of their lives with the physical and emotional scars forced upon them by bush. Tell them about courage!
By asking are we willing as the iraqi insurgents to fight our unjust adminstration, do you imply we should resort to violence? If you are, you’re as much a part of the problem as bush. I never expected to encounter such a sanctimonious comment as yours on commondreams. If you think you’re doing more to correct the wrongs we all endure, some much more than others-namely the people of Iraq, then please enlighten us. Don’t attack us. Save that for the people who got us here.
Gee, quite the news flash, seeing as how the Loonitary Decider has been proudly proclaiming Cheney’s intention to keep the US Empire Enforcer Units in New Iraq until Jesus shows up to declare the oil’s run out since day two.
But it’s more fun to pretend the last seven years never actually happened and this is actually current “news.”
Malfoyd, your hate isn’t going to solve any problems. And you are as full of that as you are yourself!
Are you surprised? Is this really news?
Everyone knows that the US immediately started building military bases (fortresses) and an massive embassy (spying headquarters) in Iraq and now, 4 and one half years later, they’re consolidating their position.
Plus, the US, outright kills Saddam Husein then installs a proconsul (Bremer, who opens Iraq oil to American companies and gives immunity to the Blackwater mercenaries) then appoints a figure head government (al-Malaki) which it then agrees to protect. American soldiers and mercenaries will be in Iraq for 50+ years, some will die and many they’ll kill.
Can Americans spell immoral and illegitimate? Do they care what Bush does in their name?
I am not alone after all. I was getting paranoid there for a few minutes. I don’t think Malfoyd is an American BTW and is not well read or informed on the subject. It is not a crime to be ignorant, we all are on some issues. I attempt to listen when I’m ignorant however and not dispay my stupidity.
Sometimes I fail there and take the lumps I so justly deserve.
@Malfoyd
Thank you to Malfoyd for shaking us all up a little. Yet I do not agree with you when you suggest that we should all, “shut up if we are not willing to revolt” This site may seem to you like a lot of whinnies wanting to voice disapproval for their government while at the same time enjoying the lifestyle that its policies provide. But I think CommonDreams.org is a lot more. This site is an excellent forum through which many of us Americans are forming new opinions about our country and its government, opinions that are often contrary to the propaganda of the culture we have been raised in. And changing a culture is a formidable task. What’s the old saying, “We are all prisoners of our culture”?
Yes, we Americans have a lot of problems with our corrupt, imperialist government. And as you point our, open revolt has not yet happened. But at the present time our democratic system still exists. I know, it’s barely limping along right now. But it’s still there. And it seems to me that any democratic system is greatly affected by the political opinions of those who vote. In that respect, this site, CommonDreams.org, is doing an excellent job of encouraging critical thinking about our government. I am proud to live in a country where such forums exist and I am proud to recommend this site to anyone who is too disengaged from the reality of America to see its hypocrisies. It seems to me that if the opinions at this site help convince enough Americans to vote more rationally in the next election, it will be more than as you say, “fake protest”.
I think Malfoyd is a Brit, possibly Canadian. But he could certainly play the part of the sterotypical obnoxious American perfectly. He has the gist down exactly.
As OREZ_ENO says, my comments did ’shake things up’ a little, and that’s not a bad thing.
As for CommonDreams.org, I visit at least once every day, often spending hours here reading every article. I have nothing but admiration for the site.
When I talk about ‘putting up or shutting up’, I mean that it is well past the time to put up. Your government has all the totalitarian tools in place to absolutely repress the coming revolt, and then it will be too late. American people, having tacitly accepted torture, will soon be subject to it. All your social networks are available through the surveillance data mining programs. Your fighting forces have been brutalized, and those that have turned aggressively psychotic have been siphoned off into mercenary forces like Blackwater where they will join Chilean commandos to patrol American streets and subjugate its population where needed.
Just as fpal wrote about the obvious course the Iraq war was always going to take, it should be obvious by now what course this administration means to take domestically in your country.
OREZ_ENO claims the American democracy still exists, but this is a mistaken belief. Face reality. Your constitution has been willfully destroyed with the goal of subjugating your population.
willybill asks what the first step should be. Ask yourself what your first step should be when you find an intruder in your house beating your children and abusing your wife. You don’t think ‘nonviolence’. You don’t think ‘dialog’. You think, ’stop this now’, and you are motivated to take whatever steps are necessary to achieve that end. So the first step is to realize, now, and with certainty, that you have dangerous criminals in your midst. Only a deep realization of this fact will provide the motivation to do something about it.
Dear Mr. al Maliki,
Take Dubya’s money. (Convert it to Euros ASAP) Kiss his skinny behind. Bring on the peace so the American troops have nothing to do but work on their tans and karaoke.
But don’t sign the PSAs! Its Iraq’s crude. Its easy to develop. You don’t need the neocolonialists. Chances are oil will be the same price here, anyway.
Peace.
Please, Malfoyd…we are all aware of what the Bushies are doing. We live here. We just still have some hope that we can reconcile the travesty they have made of our democracy without armed rebellion. We know the facts, at least some of us do, and we are doing something. We may not be picking up guns, but we are doing something. If it ever gets to armed insurection, maybe you can come over and help. You do seem more than ready to start shooting.
Malfoyd, shouldn’t you be spending your time on the Brown problem in England? We Americans are doing what we can to end this war.
If anyone should be committed, it’s George Bush. And I don’t mean to the occupation in Iraq.
Our power is weak because it is diffuse, spread over the country and world.
How can we concentrate that power to affect things to get what we want?
By identifying possibilities that can influence events at key points.
I offer again: Support Cindy Sheehan right now and make noise about it.
That will pressure Nancy Pelosi, who is a key to moving impeachment forward against Cheney.
Impeach Cheney and save the world. It’s that simple.
After him Bush will be easy. Send him back to Crawfish to finish reading ‘My Pet Goat’. I hear he’s close to finishing it.
Then Pelosi becomes caretaker-and-first-woman President and then who needs Hillary?
That’s all I want under my tree.
I’m sure this forever occupation in Iraq will be a boom for the recruitment of terrorists. Way to go bu$h……and for all the nincompoops that supported this administration and neocons.
-The military, economic and DIPLOMATIC “AGREEMENT” (no, it’s not a “Treaty” for heaven’s sake)would COMMIT US FORCES to defending the government of Iraq from INTERNAL(?) and external threats as well as fighting al-Qaida and… “ALL other ‘outlaw’(anyone who stands in the way) groups regardless of affiliation (be they Democrats or Libertarians)”, according to the declaration of principles released by the White House yesterday.
In return, Iraq pledged itself to “encouraging the flow of foreign investments to Iraq, especially American investments (or else Iraq “might could have a accident”…), to contribute to the reconstruction and rebuilding of Iraq”. The promise was immediately seen as a potential bonanza for American OIL (Ooperation Iraq Liberation… in which we liberate Iraquis from their oil)companies.
Lute offered few details on the scale of future US troop levels in Iraq or permanent US bases. He noted that the agreement, because it was NOT a treaty, would NOT be subject to oversight by Congress.-
Yes, it’s NOT a treaty, so UP YOURS CONGRESS! So say Bush. Even though it commits this nation to everlasting damnation, the Decider saith it is NOT a TREATY. It’s a DUCK! Whadda ya gonna do ’bout it? More fun wordplay from the Orwellian leaders of this now-fascist nation. War=Peace, Occupation=Freedom, Science=Lies, Money=Goodness, Criticism=Treason, Quagmire=Winning, Law= Singning Statement, Environmentalism=Terrorism, Surveillance=Security. And Agreement does not equal Treaty. See how many Bushitts you can remenber… a fun game indeed. And don’t forget, Our dear Oceana will win against… who-ever… for the War is not meant to be Won, the War is meant to be Continuous…because Big Brother tells you it is.
And to Voxclamantis, who wanted very much to join the crew of a pirate ship… Welcome aboard, me hearty! That’s Cap’n Dick on the poop, with Frst Mate Georgie at the wheel o’ our own ship, the Black Flag of Glory! Now get to swabbin’!
Holy cow!! Let’s ease up a bit on poor Malfoyd. He’s raised some scary ideas, and has done a good service to this string. His militant solutions are, we all agree, premature to say the least, but not unthinkable in some dismal possible future.
The people he should be talking to, the ones who in fact keep their guilty silence while our warlords go forth to secure cheap oil and other plunder from the poor of the earth, browse in the great central pasture of American politics. The spectrum, as it was described to me after the failure to stop the war in the Spring of 2003, is purely demographic: 20% pacifists (us), 35% hawks (them), and 45% cows (the vast, bovine, sleepy, undecided, acquiescent herd of middle Americans. Malfoyd is right that they should be ashamed of themselves and their country for this (we pacifists already are.) To speak to them he’ll have to take out an ad on the sports page.
The question of what action to take beyond words speaks to our frustration that words often don’t seem to be doing the trick. The landscape that lies beyond words could be an ugly place, and our adversaries are more comfortable there than we are. Something else needs to happen - another paradigm. And I confess I don’t know what that might be.
Vote Republican for more of this sneaky, underhanded deceit. Ignore congress and the American people and do what you want. Go George, you are an example for all neocons.
Malfoyd doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Armed revolution, like our first one? During the American Revolution, the colonists and the (British) government were similarly armed. Certainly not so today. Do you think the citizens could match the government’s firepower?
The government is based here in the US - no need to transport men or arms (by sailing ship?!) across the Atlantic.
The press? Not a lot of opposition, although there was in the colonies. Which papers do you think would suddenly start printing the truth about this despot?
Even so, the treaty with Great Britain was hastily signed - because the Americans knew that they had not had not won the overwhelmingly decisive victory that my 40-year-old history textbook implied.
BTW, any time you want to compare wealth and perks head to head, let me know. Not everyone in this country is winning financially. There’s not much for me to give up. I use less of the world’s resources than most people I know. (I’ve never owned a car - nor even so much as a moped.) The Europeans I’ve known are better off - financially as well as socially - than I am.
I’d be glad to give you a first-hand look at what our crooked, incompetent ‘health care’ system can do to degrade every aspect of an individual’s well-being.
I can also give you a few surprising illustrations of how the government actually works against individuals, including children.
IS ANYBODY ELSE having trouble with the editing function?
YES, LOTS OF US ARE.
Malfoyd:
First, you’re absolutely right. Second, I don’t take lectures from Europeans. You’re the ones who started this mess anyway, getting into sailing ships, going around the world robbing and killing people. Third, You’re absolutely right.
Don’t worry, it will all be over soon, the planet is getting fed-up with the American empire. If Europeans weren’t so determined to kill each other off, we probably wouldn’t have ended up with this one, get rid of your facists before complaining about ours.
Whining makes me feel better!
Ramsay
I agree that Malfoyd is speaking some truths. And he is asking us “what are we going to do about this situation?” If I recall, someone on another thread said they were not ready to give up their job, house, and income to go out on the streets with a gun or machete to demand justice. In fact, is that not the problem facing all of us? Sure, if we could afford to give up all of that and rise in armed protest, I do not think anyone would hesistate. The fact is we all are dependent on some sort of income to help pay our bills, medical costs, etc. I think once people free themselves from this, then we can proceed with whatever seems prudent at that point. As Voxclamantis points out, for those of us who would rise up in armed protest would be in the minority, because other people would not want to give up their comfortable lifestyles to join us. Either way, the Bush Administration has us over a barrel, and they want to keep it that way. Perhaps a better way to introduce protest other than going out in the streets is to stop purchasing goods from corporations. We could do much more damage that way than having a bunch of us get arrested while those who sympathize with us watch Monday Night Foootball. I think the tipping point will be when people can’t watch MNF because they had to sell their televisions just to put food on the table. Think about it. Endless war = increased debt. What happens when China decides to put the breaks on its economy and start cashing some of those U.S. Treasury Bills ($1.43 trillion)? When people start feeling the economic crunch so they can no longer enjoy the lifestyle as Malfoyd and others point out, then they will react. In short, we are not hurting enough for people to react. When the deep recession or depression hits, maybe then we ought to be having this conversation because more people will be willing to fight back. In the meantime, I think it still is beneficial to have these discussions on CD because it allows many of us to express our frustrations and try to come up with solutions. None of this is taking place in the MSM. But most of all, it is imperative for us not to give up the fight, no matter which way each of us can do it! That is my two cents.
I really admire Martin Luther King, Jr., but I think Al Capone had a much better grasp of human nature when he said “You can get many things with kind words, but you can get even more with kind words and a gun.” People with the background of the Bush/Cheney cabal view things from a cost/benefit point of view. As long as the cost of pursuing a particular course of action doesn’t exceed the benefits (to them), they won’t change direction. Nothing the anti-war movement has done - marching peacefully, writing our Congressional representatives, even getting arrested - has cost them s**t, compared to the benefits they and their supporters reap from their policies. As for the person in the street, as long as they can still afford a TV to watch “Dancing with the Stars” you’re not going to see any resistance from them. We long ago ceased to be a nation of citizens who felt some responsibility for our country’s actions; we’re a nation of consumers, and our motto is “Ask not what we can do for our country, but what can Disney World, or McDonalds, or WalMart, etc., do for me.”
Malfoyd, I’m with you. This country needs a well armed MILLION PATRIOT MARCH right up to the White House steps. Posting opinions isn’t going to get noticed or protect our Constitution, the foundation of America is under attack from within, not Iraq.
Hi Claudius, I agreed with much of MALFOYD’s first blog __ until his final paragraph, where he stated, “If we were only willing to just post comments here, we should shut up”. That was not necessary, uncalled for and the comment of a jerk.
You write posts like that IMAGINEUSA, and Common Dreams could be shut down. It is strictly illegal to promote the violent overthrow of our government and it should be. I hope the site monitor erases your comment.
The only thing that astonishes me is that the puppet Iraqi government hasn’t given Dick Cheney all the oil already. This “agreement” isn’t worth the toilet paper it’s written on.
Hi Kem,
I agree with you. The last paragraph should have been omitted. I hope that Malfoyd will not include comments like that in his future post.
“The promise was immediately seen as a potential bonanza for American oil companies.”
Freedom my ass, it’s always been about OIL. What’s a few
dead soldiers if that’s what it takes for Exxon/Mobile to
make a train load of money? I imagine Bush/Cheney will get
at least a boxcar full. (unless Dicks’ pacemaker gives out)
Personally I would have to chuckle if that happened.
Face it folks, we are there for the long haul and those
3000 plus dead, and 20 to 30,000 maimed soldiers are just
used up and discarded government issue. (GI’s) Welcome to
Bush’s Amerika!
Soldiers are stupid animals, to be used as pawns in wars. ~~~ Henry Kissinger~~~
I hope he/she goes out and sits on a post. ___ A long skinny one.
I remember not so long ago the Bush administration (I think it was Bush and Condoleeza Rice)criticized Maliki for being a weak leader, that maybe he should be replaced. I am wondering if this was because he did not initially cave in to this agreement.
ascott - not winning financially here either. But I find myself still wishing for some sort of financial reckoning that reaches up to the comfortable layers of society on top, and grabs and shakes their sorry asses. But alas, they are immune to recession / depression. It will only hurt the great masses, and leave us all the more emasculated.
It’s been happening to us by degrees, and no one seems to notice that way. A little less indulgence here and there, give up medical care, give up vacations, give up the new car, give up the new overcoat. But how ’bout, give up the illusion of this being a country that cares about its citizens?
We are among the unwashed masses, we cannot escape our prison to see the larger landscape. We are too busy putting bread on the table.
This non-treaty is not worth the paper it’s written on, and will be totally rebuked after this abominable administration is rode out of town. Unless the oil companies work by subterfuge to get their way. That is something we must be prepared to fight. How do you fight an oil company? Anyone?
The proposed name for the agreement is “LAFTA”.
@KEM PATRICK November 27th, 2007 9:04 pm
You wrote:
You write posts like that IMAGINEUSA, and Common Dreams could be shut down.
Really? Now this surprises me. I thought IMAGINEUSA’s comments were quite mild and certainly not as bad of many other posts here on CommonDreams.
Then you wrote:
It is strictly illegal to promote the violent overthrow of our government and it should be. I hope the site monitor erases your comment.
Well, I certainly didn’t know that such language was illegal. But even if it is, I am puzzled that you say it should be.
Perhaps I’m naïve but isn’t freedom of speech the right to say anything you want? And my goodness, can’t I say that I want to overthrow our government when in fact our founding fathers preached that we have the right to do so?
I have heard that it is against the law to make a direct threat to the president, like perhaps to assassinate him. But is openly giving the opinion that you wish the President to be assassinated a direct threat? Yikes. I sure hope the thought police never get the technology to read our thoughts. If so, I’m in real trouble because that is something I dream about almost every night.
I think it would be sad if we were all forced to restrict our speech in such a way here on CommonDreams. If so, please send me a link to another site where I am free to speak my mind.
i had a comment erased once. it was an impeachment thread, and i offered the opinion that impeachment was one of two ways to get rid of the rule of george and dick. i also said what the other way was.
The people he should be talking to, the ones who in fact keep their guilty silence while our warlords go forth to secure cheap oil and other plunder from the poor of the earth, browse in the great central pasture of American politics. The spectrum, as it was described to me after the failure to stop the war in the Spring of 2003, is purely demographic: 20% pacifists (us), 35% hawks (them), and 45% cows (the vast, bovine, sleepy, undecided, acquiescent herd of middle Americans. Malfoyd is right that they should be ashamed of themselves and their country for this (we pacifists already are.) To speak to them he’ll have to take out an ad on the sports page.
actually, cows like food. put out ice cream for them and they’ll come. but don’t ask them to think.
voxclamantis wrote: I’m not sure what kind of action, what kind of “fight” you are proposing. Armed rebellion? Are you suggesting that we set IEDs for Bush partisans like our brother insurgents in Iraq? Who, exactly, should we target?
- Federal buildings (except Post Offices)
- Military installations
- MSM outlets and television/cable distributors
- Headquarters of corporations that donated electoral funds
- Churches
- Wall Street
Did I leave any out?
Malfoyd’s remarks rankle because most of us feel frustrated, in part because we feel impotent and then resort to carping and bickering. I think his points are like salt in our own self-inflicted wounds.
Funny, isn’t it, that we take offense having our activities called into question. But what Malfoyd fails to realize is that his characterization of us ” doing nothing” is not what WE feel when stymied after actively working for change in ways we were taught a good citizen functions.
And funny how our tendency to divide in nationalistic camps, our tendency to cast him as OTHER because he is not US, makes his challenge more offensive. We would rather criticize ourselves. It would have been more helpfulto this thread–more constructive, if he could have asked what folks in HIS country could do to help awakened folks here to be more effective, or feel more connected. He seems to catagorize all US citizens as SUV driving dolts.
Fact is, many of us consciously live life very simply, and want to make a real contribution to the vialbility of all lifeforms. Green living in Europe is at least in part, a natural outgrowth of dwindling natural resources, and the recognition that conservation and preservation was not an option if they wanted any quality of natural life to be available for future generations. We,unfortunately have yet to face that problems in the same way they have, due to the size and richness of our resources. That is changing slowly, but many people are still in denial. We are a young nation comparatively and have not yet learned the limits and folly of empire, and its attendant exceptionalism.
Had Malfoyd acknowledged his own Nation’s fallibility, it would have been easier to see his motives as trying to help instead of simply pointying an accusatory finger at us.
I am deeply troubled by the mindless consumptiom and the disconnect from reality that characterizes so many here, but that will change one person at a time, and we can help the transformation by being examples, not by disdainful condemnation.
OREZ__ENO. It just so happens to be a Federal crime (to promote, or advocate, the “violent” overthrow of the government.) Sorry if you or any are unaware of that legal FACT.
BTW, the punishment is very severe, no matter where one may post it.
If you read that post of IMAGNEUSA carefully, the words are, “A WELL ARMED” march to the White House steps. I do believe any federal prosescutor, would be inclined to say, that is advocating a violent overthrow of the government. I happen to go along with that particular law that such should be illegal for several good reasons, including it is advocating anarchy.
You can believe as you so choose on the matter. I also believe the law could shut down Common Dreams, if they allow such to be posted. They have deleted such comments here prior to this and they should. That’s my opiinon and I will stand by it. If you disagree with that law, see about having it changed. If you wish to disagree with me, you are wasting your nimble fingers, because I didn’t write the law.
WTF you did it too. Are you nuts?
Yes OREZ_ENO. I also hope the thought police are not as active as Kem suggests.
CD lost my earlier post, but that’s just as well, it was hardly an uplifting one. Still … what is going on? I didn’t mention the “R” word (with or without an “A” in front of it) and still it goes missing.
Thought police? Are you all crazy? It the federal police, the FBI, etc you’d better worry about, and you can bet your ass they are watching. They would love to shut this site down. If they see it, lookout and that would be good advice for any who have agreed with the nut.
>OREZ__ENO. It just so happens to be a Federal crime (to promote, or advocate, the “violent” overthrow of the government.) Sorry if you or any are unaware of that legal FACT.
Well, I sure hope they’re keeping an eye on this guy. He sounds dangerous!:
“The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”
Thomas Jefferson
@KEM PATRICK November 27th, 2007 11:29 pm
Your wrote:
It just so happens to be a Federal crime (to promote, or advocate, the “violent” overthrow of the government.) Sorry if you or any are unaware of that legal FACT.
This is one that I will have to investigate, and I expect it will take me some time to do so.
You also wrote:
If you wish to disagree with me, you are wasting your nimble fingers
Of course I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. The idea of free speech is to communicate and consider opinions, not necessarily to convince.
But you see my dilemma, don’t you? On the one hand I was taught in school that Americans have the right to bear arms against their government, while on the other hand you say, “it is illegal to promote, or advocate, the “violent” overthrow of the government”. Please forgive me for harping on this, but in all honesty this is the first I hear about such a law. And yes, I admit that I did not always pay attention in school.
Regardless of how this turns out, regardless of which law is legal and which is not, one thing is for sure, we have diametrically opposite opinions on this one. I do not believe that giving an opinion that our government should be overthrown contributes to anarchy. I believe that such an opinion helps promote critical thinking. It is a test of whether or not we do indeed truly enjoy free speech in this country. And finally, it is a check and balance that was designed into our constitution by the founding fathers to help prevent our government from becoming an evil dictatorship.
If our government were good, I agree that an actual attempt to overthrow it would be anarchy. But if as I said that government were good, it would be obvious that it did not deserve to be overthrown and few people would take seriously an individual’s opinion to overthrow it. Said another way, the opinion to overthrow the government simply wouldn’t be taken seriously by most people. So there is little chance of anarchy. There is no need in that case to prevent a person from opinionating that the government should be overthrown. However, if that government were truly evil, the opinion to overthrow it may help promote legitimate action, and such action would not be anarchy. Indeed, it would be patriotic. In this case every citizen should be encouraged to opinionate that the government should be overthrown.
I say this not to convince you of anything. I say it merely to communicate my stand both to you and others who read these posts on CommonDreams.org. The way I see it, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say to me on the one hand that I have freedom of speech, but on the other hand that there are certain things that I cannot say, beyond direct personal threats and unacceptable foul language of course. But more importantly, isn’t the very goal of free speech to act as a check against our government becoming evil? And how can free speech do that if we are never allowed to opinionate that the government should or should not be overthrown? To me it does not make sense. It is also contrary to everything that I thought our country stood for.
All this talk about what to do. We had Garry Kasparov going to bat for the Russian people last Saturday and the Russian police were waiting for him and arrested him. he is now captured and will not eat or drink the food of the jailers because they have a history of poisoning people.
Gary is the famous world chess champion. he has money he has women he has a son and friends and yet he makes it his mission to lead his country.
I very much admire Garry Kasparov and I hope for Putins sake, that kasperov emerges from that jail with his body and mind intact - the 5 days are up on Thurday.
The whole debacle is a terror tactic of Putin to scare the whole country into shutting up.
Keep him in your thoughts and get his word out on the news as he is a much admired person for many reasons.
It does not matter what you may believe bud, the law is very clear on the issue. Some here have already broken that federal law and they better be careful if they are Americans. I don’t wish to see any here in any trouble, but they may very well be.
We have the right to have arms. We do not have the right to ‘advocte’ the violent overthrow of our government, That is two seperate issues. If the government attacks us with violence, that is another matter altogether. I do believe also, that law was put on the books long after Jefferson died. I’m not certain of that. His opinons are a moot issue also, the written law is not.
I don’t think he sunds dangerous, he wrote a stupid and illegal comment however. It isn’t funny. And I don’t want to see this site shut down either.
Because of my poor expression, some here understood I was suggesting it would be better for people here not to comment if they weren’t prepared to take action against this administration. This is not what I think. Most comments on this site are thoughtful and valuable. I read them often.
But there is a huge amount of protest throughout the web, and an overwhelming consensus that your government does not represent the real America. Yet there is virtually no effective action against it.
Others understood I was advocating taking up arms and shooting people. No, but unless real action is taken soon, it may come to that. It won’t be because those seeking change will shoot first, either. As I pointed out, when a government starts using torture abroad, you can be sure they will soon use it at home. When a government spies on its own people, the fears KEM PATRICK obviously harbours will become justifiably widespread. People will stop talking to each other for fear of the official consequences.
claudius suggests action against the corporations, and I couldn’t agree more. A boycott of all corporations that profit from this administration’s wars would get a lot of attention, and be very effective. That would be a lot of corporations, and it would involve great sacrifice on both sides. Privatization is what this administration is all about, and that is where you would have the greatest effect.
Boycotting corporations would require withholding your taxes, because the lion’s share of war spending goes to private corporations, including the ‘contractors’, 180,000 strong, in Iraq. The Congress you elected to withhold war funding isn’t doing it, so maybe it’s up to you.
Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses.
OREZ you say you were not diagreeing with me.
Yes you were, and that is your perfect right. I only relplied, that you were wasting your time to do so, because I didn’t write the law, nor do I enforce it.
I have written this twice prior, on other threads. I wish to see a total walkout of all workers and stay at home with the flu until impeachment is on the table. A ‘peaceful protest’. We only go out of our homes for essentials. Those who work in essential jobs, such as police, fire, furnishing electrical power, fuel and water, medical facilities, food and drug stores keep working.
Everyone else, stay home and stay there as long as it takes for our Congress to wake up and do their legal duty. Just like a Teamsters strike, do it and stand tough. We don’t need any marches, or demonstrations. I’d bet Congress would come to terms in a few days. That type of a strike is not illegal and it would work.
So how about if we all concentrate our efforts (including influencing other people) to boycott corporations. All of us who post on CD should participate in this. We should get all of our family members and friends to participate. We can get the word out on Youtube, Facebook, and other media sources. It won’t be a one-day nationwide boycott of Exxon Mobil. It will be a year long or longer boycott of WalMart, McDonald’s and other mega corporations. That way none of us will go to jail, and we will have severed more than one head of the corporate hydra. How about if we all adjust our lifestyles so we no longer support corporations. Many posters here at CD have given excellent ideas and perhaps we ought to adopt and abide by them. It might be a little uncomfortable at first, but we will get acclimated to it. The other day, I was talking to a friend who asked if I was going to take advantage of the shopping sales following Thanksgiving. I said “no, I only go shopping when I need to.” My friend asked me “Why not? There will be great sales.” I said “no, it supports the corporations that prop up our corrupt politicians, and I only purchase what I need, and usually from second-hand stores. Wait until a steep recession or depression hits this country, and then you will understand what I am saying.” He hung up the phone completely baffled. How about we draft a Declaration of Independence from Corporations? We make a list of corporations to boycott, and everyone follows it. Sound good?
Lets do them both Claudus.
BTW, any who may have gotten the impression that I fear to talk or write here are wrong.
And thnk you for posting the clarification MALFOYD, it is not difficult or unusual for a mis-understanding when writing E-mail type comments.
Kem,
I am game. When do we start and how do we get everyone else on CD involved?
I don’t have a clue CLAUDIUS. We are afraid to give one another our e-mail addresses, with ample justification. Most here won’t even use their real names. I have had one blogger here ask me for my E-mail address and she gave me her telephone number. She wrote it was very important that I call her.
I called from a pay phone during that fishing trip 2,500 miles from my home when we were near New York city. The number was a company number, but I don’t remember the name. I asked for the person who had written to me here. The woman who answered said, “OH, the Common Dreams person”. Whoooah!! The woman came on the line and she didn’t want anything really, except my e-mail address or home phone number. She was just talking about nothing really. I was very suspicious naturally and didn’t give her any information. I have never seen her blog before or since that day, the second of October. She also blogged using two different names. One was MOOKIE and the other I don’t recall right off hand, but it is on that thread of the American Embassy woman, who stated she hated all Iranians. It’s in the archives for early October or late September. If you look it up, she had again asked me to call her and left a phone number.
Anyway how could we all meet and discuss such things? I don’t know. I suspect, any such discussions might fall under the threat of the people being terrorists in the Bush Cartel’s opinion. Therefore, we may all be screwed already.
I would like to add to Malfoyd’s comments, because I also, as an outsider, feel that Americans are not doing enough to act against this government, but I am aware that there is a minority that is working overtime to do so and I acknowledge starofthesea’s frustrations. I’m happy that I’m not an American right now, because the burden of responsibility is quite heavy on you. Maybe our disappointment is mainly with the thickness of the skull of the majority who are not yet active.
I am particularly disappointed that, even though there are 70% of the people against Bush, this does not yet extend to the Republican Party. In polls, Republican candidates still manage to get people’s attention, just by disassociating themselves from Bush. But we all know where they were only three years ago, when Bush was still popular. This whole disaster was a Republican plan, and of course it became a disaster, because Republicans are generally stupid. And a large proportion of the people of America are generally also stupid in not recognizing this fact: saying they disapprove of Bush, but hey Giuliani is having a speech tonight, let’s listen to what he has to say.
I think that the ‘dissident’ movement in the U.S. has achieved a lot in the last few years (unimaginable now, but Bush was actually ‘popular’ only a few years back), but when they convince fellow citizens to stand up against Bush, now it is time to pay attention to quality, not only quantity. If really 70% of the people disapprove of the whole Republican apparatus and the ideology they stand for, it would really mean that major changes are taking place in the American society, but apparently disapproval of Bush does not yet run very deep, even though it is widespread.
Just this evening a friend and neighbor dropped by to pick up their dog we were baby sitting for a couple of days. They are a family of RABID Republicans, they worked their tails off for Bush and passed out lying propaganda against Kerry, which was printed by their ‘goodie- goodie Bush loving church. Up until a month ago, they were still not sure if Bush was an idiot. They refused to acknowledge, he has ruined this nation. Well, tonight he was pretty humble and said things about Bush I never expected to hear. I hope he is not alone, and I am certain he is not.
Another good deal is, the Republican party does not have much money this time and I bet they won’t get much. The Democrats do have money, and of course sadly, that is the name of the game here.
Claudius, the unions could do it. A nation wide trucker strike could set it off, along with the airline workers. They’d get lots of media attention and everyone in the country would understnad what it was all about. The trucks that haul essentials, food and fuel, could continue to roll. I bet Congress would be jumping through hoops in a day. It would all be about putting impeachment on the table and let the mandatory hearings begin.
Globilization, Globilization, Globilization.
Domination, Minipulation, segregation, brutalization, Murder, deception, Thieves and list go’s on.
This is no NEW Story. You should have seen this comming from a distance.
I didn’t see it until about six months ago. But, I’m a dumbass and know it.
Sorry Kem article referred to topic and not your post. My apologies..
BTW - The strike you guys intending to do… HOw can we assist. SA - South Africa
That’s Okay SWORD, I am a dumbass though.
Do you happen to have a direct line to Jimmy Hoffa Jr.? __ How about a place to hide our dumb asses when the depression hits? __ You have any diamonds left over there? Any of that would help.
For OREZ ENO and any who wish to read about the Federal law concerning advocationg the VIOLENT overthrow of the government, read this. I didn’t find the Federal statute, but this is a good start. ___ If the link opens.
http://thenewslies.org/blog/?p=600
It won’t open, page not available, just Google laws on the subject.
on a verge of Recession… the dream seems to be fading to America the land of the broke.
Hey you guys know how to prevail. You have those tough Dutch, Germans, displaced Aussies and the Zulu warriors. You all made it. We got Bush, Cheney, Halliburton and Wal-Mart and owe our asses and our grandkids asses to China. We have hope, but hope is just a nice four letter word, unless action is added to it.
Is it time for revolution? Peaceful revolution perhaps but not violent revolution. The people are not yet ready to be led and a violent revolution now would return minimal gain. Let’s not make the Bush/Cheney team taller than they really are. Yes they are reeking havoc both domestically and internationally, but let’s not give up on the law and people’s respect for it at this time. Bush and Cheney both know that the tall clover they thought they were in was really a mirage. What they are in today is much deeper and of their own making. In fact, they are drowning in it and their awful behaviors are anchored in denial. Just for fun, imagine their wakeup when it arrives! Pres Bush cries at night and Cheney’s ticker has lost it’s tock. This pair of misunderestimated deciders are cracking under the weight of their misunderestimated deeds. They know that their power is dwindling and they keep flexing it just to prove to themselves that it is still there. Their insular behavior is misoverjudged as well. Like most bad boys they are facing certain reality and they are about to have a transforming experience. Overnight they will see the light!
I don’t know about you but I want a ticket to this show.
ALOHA!!
I live in a State that is an example of American and British Imperialism that has been in existance for over 100 years now … HAWAII !!! Once a soveign nation like Iraq but then subjected to the jackbooted thugs of gunboat diplomacy that has been the hallmark of the US government and the US Military and CIA ever since.
Please those here who say it is this generations fault please read some “real” US History and you will see this has been the theme not only here in the USA but in Europe for 1000 years … THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN!!! THIS IS CERTAINLY NOT NEW !!!
Iraq has been pilaged and plundered by foreign European governments for a very long time now. The British taught Saddam all about weapons of mass destruction and the advantages of biological warfare way back in the days of Winston Churchill(1923) when the British Empire routinely dropped mustard gas on the Kurds and Iraqis in order to quell the same insurgents the USA is attempting to quell today. The same insurgents the Russian Empire went bankrupt trying to quell in the 1980s.
THE PATH TO RESTORE TRUE FREEDOM
First order of business is to disconnect yourself from the two party aristocracy that has been in charge of our future for the past 100 years … The Dems and the Reps. The Dems got us into Vietnam and kept us there even when there were mass riots at every US college back in the 1960s. A Republican President got us out of Vietnam. Now a Republican President has gotten us into an even worse Vietnam. Only diff is this time they were wise and used no “draft”. Nobody really cares if volunteers die since they signed up of their own “free” will! This is why Bush avoids “treaties” or anything that requires the involvement of Congress and the American people.
This country started as a Republic not a Democracy. Our Founding Fathers feared a Democracy as much as they feared the King of England! The damage has been done some 100 years ago and those who hold our money hostage since 1913 know this well. The KING is back! Only just like the King Of England back in the 1700s our KING GEORGE of BUSH is owned by the same bankers … the same elite US and European families. The likes of the Rothschilds and Rockefellers and the Morgans … The founder of the European banking empire said over 230 years ago before the USA was a free nation … GIVE ME CONTROL OF A NATIONS MONEY AND I CARE NOT WHO MAKES ITS LAWS! Amschel Baer Rothschild … This is the same old strategy being employed today by the more modern bankers only now money is measured in TRILLIONS not MILLIONS and it is moved by mouse clicks not trucks and ships!
GOVERNMENT IS ONLY AS HONEST AS ITS MONEY …
I am on the front lines of a political REVOLUTION that would change the face of that BANKING CARTEL. I am a RON PAUL volunteer here in Hawaii. If you need a place to start then start there. RON PAUL has been fighting the US FEDERAL RESERVE BANK(fiat money system)for over 16 years now and he has been all alone in that endeavour. Ask Alan Greenspan who grilled him the most … Ask Ben Bernanke who he most fears when he is in front of the House Of Representatives? Ask the IRS and the FED which political candidate today wants to eliminate them as viable entities? Without the US Taxpayer none of the Bush policies or any of the past two party aristocracy policies could be implemented. The US Taxpayer holds the power in America yet the US Taxpayer does not even know this. Nobody in America knows the key to all their ills … the key to their freedom and their kids freedom is the removal of the corrupt fiat monetary system that rules our finances and our lives now. Our revolution back in 1776 was fought for the same reasons that enslave us today! It could all change literally overnight!! Look what the Russian people did to their government the USSR when they were fed up. The same can happen here in the USSA … We The People of The United States Of America have a long and proud history of REVOLUTION! Get onto the front lines now … Start with supporting RON PAUL!
We need another BOSTON TEA PARTY!!!
Join the REVOLUTION !!! DO IT NOW !!!
Kaimu, Ron Paul is ungrounded. Sorry, no can do.
What difference does this make? It is not as if Maliki is a freely elected leader. What other outcome did anyone expect under foreign armed occupation?
Bush and Cheney suck on the Oil organ and spew death. What will become of these two if they can’t deliver the pipelines and US military protection as they promised?
Will the corporations that call their tunes send them home? Will they be called ‘doo-doo heads’ in the “press”? Will their Mommies make them eat all their broccoli?
The CEOs and the shareholders of the companies that profit from war and murder are as guilty as the B/C twins; and, should also be required to pay the price for their crimes
KEM PATRICK November 28th, 2007 12:51 am
You wrote:
OREZ you say you were not diagreeing with me.
Yes you were, and that is your perfect right. I only relplied, that you were wasting your time to do so, because I didn’t write the law, nor do I enforce it.
Sorry, but I specifically said I was not trying to convince you. The words disagree (which you spelled incorrectly) and convince are very different.
Free speech does not mean that you can say something in a public forum and then no one else is allowed to give an opposing opinion. You may choose to remain unconvinced all you want, but you cannot suppress others from saying they believe you are wrong.
The bottom line is we are diametrically opposite in many ways, but the most fundamental is in our understanding of what it means to be an American. Indeed, it is people like you that as an American I am most embarrassed of. You willing give up you right to free speech at the stroke of pen of some law that is obviously contrary to everything that we as Americans claim to stand for. And, as a veteran I believe I have earned the right to say that.
Malfoyd was correct. Our democracy is pretty much dead and we have long past the time when we should have violently overthrown our current fascist government. I fear that ultimately, as happens with all corrupt governments, we will be forced to do so.
Incidentally, I know you are enjoying your retirement spending your entire day here on CommonDreams.org commenting ten times over on every article that appears but adding little enlightenment beyond your own misunderstandings. Now I’m not one to suppress your right to free speech in a public forum. You can continue doing this all you like. However you should know that many of us are getting tired of the sound of your voice.
This ‘agreement’ doesn’t have the power of law; it’s more of George’s Song.
Kem Patrick and others, No one is suggesting a violent overthrow of our government, YET! But the right to bare arms and march is protected under the Constitution of the United States. If you wish to restrict those rights? I suggest you call the White House for help?
Malfoyd, I’m sorry I attacked you in my previous posts. It’s not that I totally disagree with you, I just think things in the US aren’t past the point of no return. And it’s also a case of we can call our mother a bitch, but we don’t want to hear it from someone else. And I don’t think we were putting people into camps just because they’re not from “here” like someone suggested. I have and always will have a special place in my heart for Great Britian. The British Isles are the motherland for a great deal of Americans, including myslef. We were at one time British, then we had our tea party. And yes, your democracy is still working, unlike ours, but we will hopefully rectify that directly. But remember, Tony Blair was less than innocent concerning Iraq. He gave cover to bush. He legitimized bush’s insanity.
We are having an election next year, and with any luck the Democrats will take the white house and gain a larger majority in both houses of congress. That’s not to say I’m totally happy with the Democrats, unless we’re talking about Dennis Kucinich. If the next democratic president doesn’t immediately start to dismatle the undemocratic infrastructure this madman has put into place, then I will definetly start to worry. Immigration to Canada is an option. Some would say that’s an act of cowardice, but if things don’t improve here it’s a real option: more so than armed revolt. Even with a conservative government, Canada’s values are much more like those of many of us than even our own country’s. That’s not to say I’m giving up. Immigration is an option of last resort.
Dr. Ron Paul is “ungrounded?” That’s a laugh, considering the group he’s running against.
What ever happened to gravitas?
Many of the comments here show a shocking obliviousness to the changes that have occurred since a Democratic majority was elected to both houses of Congress in November of 2006. When that change occurred Democrats in Congress took over all Senate and House committees including the oversight functions of these committees that have the power to take action to correct illegal and inappropriate activities in all branches of government.
(Some of you may remember references to the rubberstamp Republican Congress before this point in time.)
While the Bush Administration clung to its previous course, an almost endless number of changes have occurred in the last year.
Robert Gates replaced Donald Rumsfeld; the US agreed to give North Korea the food and heating oil it was withholding; the US agreed to let Iranian influenced Shiites run Iraq; torture, wiretapping and illegal detainment at Guantánamo have all been exposed, rebuked and rendered largely inoperative; three of the President’s chief apostles, Alberto Gonzales, Tony Snow and Karl Rove have resigned; this week the two top Republicans in Congress announced their resignations.
Still the din ‘pitchforks and torches to the White House’ goes on.
Are people that oblivious to the changes that have occurred?
“You write posts like that IMAGINEUSA, and Common Dreams could be shut down.”
Not-hardly… Enough of that-type posting/Commentary will get CD ‘quietly-controlled’ by our well-meaning Anti-Terrorist agencies, who would then follow the usual JustusDept-approaches of ‘Sting-operations’ — planting scam-Posters using just-over-the-Line “harmful Free-Speech”, and then gathering-info on all who can be characterized as like-Thinking “online/Domestic-terrorists” because they are participating in this-Forum (and allowed these ‘baiting-posts’ to incite them to Extremism).
Violence is not an appropriate or acceptable response for ending-Violence.
‘Revolution’ against a foreign-Occupier or colonial-overload is NOT the same as any proposed ill-intent towards one’s own-Government and/or fellow-Citizens. [I have occasionally witnessed civil-disorder and internal-Revolution (on small-scale) — trust me, no one here wants to see any-such in America.]
All/any mention of a ‘need for Violence’, or its efficacy in ‘changing’-America/the-Admin/etc. — meaning, violence advocated against others-in-America — MUST be shouted-down and/or exposed for what it is…
Ideas are, in longterm, far more-powerful than any-weapons.
And if you cannot convince others that what you propose is also in “their Self-Interests”, then maybe your Proposition is just ‘wrong-headed’.
I categorically deny any agreement or association with any Poster/author here (or anywhere-else) who advocates ANY form of Violence towards any entity/person or institution/agency, anywhere — under any-circumstance whatsoever or to serve any-Goal…PERIOD.
“A boycott of all corporations that profit from this administration’s wars would get a lot of attention, and be very effective.”
What, you gonna boycott the oil companies and the defense contractors? Tell me how that works.
Please name those companies that you will boycott that you think will make a hoot of a difference? Names, please.
DAVE C You are wrong. I know what the second ammendment reads and the first. The man wrote we he would like to see us march on the White House WELL ARMED. Read what he wrote.
That is a Federal crime, I am sorry but it is a federal crime to advocate or promote violence against the goverment federal or state, and or, to even discuss such. The key words were well armed. I did not write the law. That law has been tested in the Supreme Court and was upheld as constitutional by a vote of seven to two. If you think there are only three Federal crimes you are badly misinformed.
You guys can think anything you wish, I don’t really care.
OREZ ENO I never said I was against the right of free speech and I sure do use mine, both here and in the public meetings at our local government. Your half assed assumptions about me are just that. If you are tired of my posts, there is a little thing called a mouse, just use it to scroll on by.
You can be ashamed of me if you like, you don’t know squat about me, except for things I have posted here on CD. I don’t care if you are ashamed of me or not. And if you think promoting violence is the answer, knock yourself out.
Regardless of what you claim, I said the man had violated a federal law and you disagreed with me. Now you say you were not arguing that point. You can play your silly games with words if you so choose and that also does not bother me.
Is it really wishful thinking, OR a face-saving act designed to make it look like an honorable withdrawal.
KEM: I don’t think he sunds dangerous, he wrote a stupid and illegal comment however. It isn’t funny. And I don’t want to see this site shut down either.
I assume you’re referring to IMAGINEUSA and not Thomas Jefferson. If posting a quote from one our nation’s Founding Fathers can get this site shut down, then we’ve already passed the point of no return.
Another thing to remember: if those in power want to shut this site down or arrest us, they will. Totalitarian governments don’t need legitimate excuses to do those things; that’s what makes them totalitarian. Like every dictator from Hitler to Musharaff, they will accuse those who disagree with them, even non-violently, of treason or threatening the “fatherland.” Is Kasparov making threats against Putin? Are the lawyers of Pakistan planning a violent revolution? Doubtful on both counts. They’re just demanding the rights that every human being is entitled to. That hasn’t stopped their respective governments from jailing them to “prevent disorder” and “protect the state.” An abstract discussion about the circumstances under which citizens should revolt against their government is probably not going to bring us any closer to that dreaded knock on the door than we already are, and by giving up our right to do so out of fear, we’ve already allowed the powers that be to circumscribe our freedom.
Here’s another “dangerous” quote:
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable” John F. Kennedy
I mean our right to discuss abstract ideas, hahaha.
“Treaties shall be the supreme law of the land.” Isn’t it great how cynically the current administration uses this constitutional directive? When it suits the imperial agenda, it applies. When international law contravenes their policy, its quaint and outdated.
This has been another amazing thread that shows that if we keep up the discussion for only a day or so we clear up most of our misunderstandings.
Lord Trigo, you took the words right out of my mouth with my favorite JFK quote “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable”. Also when I was just a kid, Gus Hall told me that revolution will come when things get really bad.
I don’t care what the new bad laws say when they go against our natural rights.
If I am not around to let you all know when the time for armed rebellion has come, It will happen when it needs to happen like shit happens and it is good.
Love Ya, Jim
KEM PATRICK wrote: WTF you did it too. Are you nuts?
I was shocked and horrified to read your statements on laws against violent revolution, and looked it up. Indeed, you are correct: Sec. 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government.
I was shocked because the US Government itself advocates “regime change” and has implemented this policy many times, violently and non violently, over the past 50 years. I had always believed that the Government leads by example, but now learn that there is one law for its citizens, and another law for the Government. Does not sound much like a democracy to me.
Further, modern US culture is built on violent revolution against Governments. The Original Sin being, of course, the War of Independence. There are many novels (Clancy, Follett, etc) , movies (Star Wars, V for Vendetta, etc) and music (Hip-Hop) that glorifies violent revolution against standing Governments.
The second amendment to the Constitution was instituted to enable well-armed militias to protect the security of a free state, but is illegal under Sec. 2385.
So WTF? OK, I’m not going to advocate violent insurrection any more, but I think a case can be made that most of US society, starting with the US Government, is abrogating this law.
No LORD TINGO, I was not refering to Thomas Jefferson, I was answering what you had previously written, when you wrote, “I think this guy sounds dangerous”.
Well WTF, glad you found the statute, I couldn’t find it last night. I was fully aware it is indeed a very serious offense and the penalties are severe, long jail sentences and high fines. Our Supreme Court has ruled on it and upheld the law by a seven to two vote. I would not be at all surprised, if any who write such here are not already being investigated. Our government has people who are well paid to do that type of work and they love their jobs which they take very seriously.
However, we do have the right of free speech (with some limitations) We do have the right to have weapons, with again, some limitations. I do not ever want to see those rights taken from us. I also can see the necessity, of not allowing citizens to march to the White House “well armed” to protest. I can also see it should be illegal, for an American to promote a violent overthrow of ours or any other government. If that were allowed, we would have anarchy. Imagine if every time we wished to have a protest march, we were “well armed”. I do believe the protest march could easily become quite an exciting event. Sorry, I did not write the law, and am now sorry I even mentioned it, for if someone wishes to be ignorant of the law, that is really none of my business.
Good luck to any who have very possibly violated that law and any who supported their opinions. I do hope nothing comes of it, plesd stupidity, and you will have a decent defense.
Please excuse any of my poorly spelled words, I am legally blind and do have a little trouble with this sticky keyboard and reading the screen with a magnifing glass.
This is one of the most honest and revealing threads that I have ever read on this site.
It has a bit of everything:
1 Stop all the whining and do something already.
2 No matter how bad the government gets, you outsiders can keep your noses out of it.
3 Be careful what you say, big brother is listening.
I didn’t realize until now how much the fear of the government had grown. Perhaps it is just among this demographic but you lot sound like conspirators in East Germany, not participants in even the weakest of democracies. Sharing ideas and educating each other is a value in itself but if what you are doing is hiding in cyberspace for fear of being discovered by the police then your situation is worse than I thought. I personally think that people should think twice before pressing the send button. Advocating violence is a mug’s game. You’ve also got no shortage of nonviolent heroes to draw upon. There’s the famous example of your lady who was brave enough to sit at the front of the bus. A hundred years from now, people will remember Rosa Parks. I bet you anything people will be tripping over themselves trying to forget the cowards running the US right now.
We also have Cindy Sheehan and her many fine supporters and I don’t believe they pack guns or other weapons when they protest.
KEM PATRICK, …Personal attack on the messenger, Malfoyd, is not nice. I thought on this site we knew that we should attack only the message, not the messenger. Accordingly, I would never allow myself to say that you are a coward or that you have the mindset of a nice little old lady.
I tend to strongly agree with Malfovd that the only way to get rid of a fascist government is by revolution. If it were not for the revolution, you would still be living in a British colony. Maybe you don’t mind that, but obviously a lot of people did.
I also strongly agree with the poster that said people are not yet ready for revolution. They’re not now madly enraged at the status quo. They’re just a little upset because they think the war has been mismanaged and their treasure wasted. The fact that the war was immoral does not seem to bother them. This vast majority are the ones Malfovd should address.
SAILA, you usually disagree with me on any subject, but that’s alright, you are free to express your opinions here as I am. I disagreed with his final paragraph only. I didn’t consider my comment to MALFOYD as an attack.
I felt his words in that fInal paragraph were not in any manner appropriate, as did several others here. He later apologized for his use of some of his words and I and others accepted his apology. I therefore don’t see any good reason for you to bring the matter up again, unless you wish to attempt to prove some useless point or attempt to show all that I am not ‘nice’.
I don’t consider one has attacked me for diagreeing with me, many of my friends here do on occasion. That’s how we learn from one another. Of course if one is rude or assumes things that are not true and attacks me in a personal manner, as one did here, I often respond in a like manner. I don’t worry if one disagrees with me. I really don’t allow such to bother my sleep in any case.
BTW, WTF, that violent rebellion to overthrow the government in our Revolutionary War, was not directed at__OUR__ current government. It was directed at the government of England and indeed it was illegal and an act of treason for our forefathers to do so.
That is precicely why they wrote our first and second ammendments. Unfortunantly, they are in conflict with laws that have been passed, tested in courts, and were found to be constitutional. Those laws have justification, as any reasonable person should be able to understand. We also have the rights to ‘peacefully’ protest and not have any necessity to have a violent overthrow of our government, __if we will use those rights, starting with everyone eligable voting.
Claudius here has offered some good means of doing such. I have offered an opinion on the issue also, don’t know if it’s good or not. Cindy Sheehan is doing such. Congressman Kicinich is doing such, not enough of us are doing such and over 50% of us don’t bother to ever vote.
DAVE C, you brought up a very good point there. You wrote, that one o