Bush's Nuclear 'Reprocessing' Plan Under Fire
NEW YORK - The Bush administration is pushing for plans to reuse spent nuclear fuel in power reactors across the United States, but key senators and nuclear analysts have raised economic and security concerns about reusing the weapons-grade fuel.
"We have serious concerns about the implications of current plans for commercial spent fuel reprocessing," a group of seven Democratic and one Republican senators told Byron Dorgan (D-ND), chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Energy and Water Development Appropriations, in a letter last week.
The letter urged Dorgan and Ranking Member Pete Domenici (R-NM) to cut funding for spent fuel reprocessing in an energy appropriations bill that is expected to be considered along with many other spending plans next month.
The reprocessing is being promoted as part of the administration's Global Nuclear Energy Partnership (GNEP), a plan to form an international partnership to reprocess spent nuclear fuel in a way that renders the plutonium in it usable for nuclear energy but not for nuclear weapons.
The energy and water development appropriations bill currently before the Senate would provide $243 million for the initiative, whereas the House version would commit $120 million.
Those who signed the letter include Senators Russ Feingold (D-WI), Ron Wyden (D-OR), John Sununu (R-NH), Tom Harkin (D-IA), Bernard Sanders (D-VT), John Kerry (D-MA), Daniel Akaka (D-HI), and Edward Kennedy (D-MA).
The eight senators said reprocessing is "not a solution" to the problem of nuclear waste and held that it could weaken U.S. efforts to halt global nuclear proliferation. In addition, they argued that the Energy Department's plans could cost taxpayers at least $200 billion.
Arms control activists have welcomed the senators' call for funding cuts and said their letter reflects a growing skepticism in Congress about the administration's reprocessing initiative.
"There are a variety of concerns about the program ranging from cost, to nuclear proliferation risks, to past failures in this area," said Leonor Tomero, director for nuclear nonproliferation at the Washington, DC-based Center for Arms Control and nonproliferation.
In her view, the Energy Department's request for hundreds of millions of dollars is not reasonable because its initiative and the GNEP "will not provide a viable solution" to the nuclear waste problem.
The Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources recently held a hearing on GNEP where many of its members expressed their concerns and raised serious questions about the Energy Department's plans.
In addition to the senators' objections, the administration's current proposal has also been criticized by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a pro bono committee of experts that advises the federal government on scientific issues. In its annual report this year, the NAS described the Energy Department's plan as an "unwise" effort that lacked "economic justification."
Although the administration has failed to provide an official cost analysis of the entire program, critics say it is clear that reprocessing is drastically more expensive than the current practice of "once through" fuel cycle systems.
In 1996, for example, the NAS estimated reprocessing and transmutation could easily cost $100 billion to deal only with the current spent fuel, and said technical challenges likely will result in GNEP costing -- rather than saving -- money.
And the nuclear power industry has expressed no interest in cost sharing, almost ensuring that the entire burden would fall on taxpayers.
At the recent hearing NAS scientists said there was no need for GNEP and held that the administration's accelerated timetable and efforts to initiate commercial-scale facilities "will create significant technical and financial risks."
Noting that previous efforts to reprocess and reuse spent fuel had failed, the senators recalled in their letter how, in 1983, Congress canceled the Clinch River Breeder Reactor, initially estimated to cost $400 million, when GAO cost estimates reached $8.8 billion.
In 1972, the West Valley, New York reprocessing facility was shut down as well, after only reprocessing in its six years of operation the equivalent of four months of spent fuel produced by the current fleet of U.S . reactors, whose $5.3 billion cleanup effort is still ongoing.
"The GNEP has morphed into a large-scale construction project well beyond research and development, they said, even though the technologies that GNEP proposes are not available.
Since first unveiling GNEP in February 2006, the administration has changed its plans "at least four times," the senators stated in the letter, explaining that much of the essential technology "will not be viable for 40-50 years."
"The GNEP hinges on the development and deployment of dozens of fast-neutron reactors," the senators said, but added that not one has been commercialized anywhere, "despite 50 years of U.S. and international research."
According to the recently released Keystone Center report, which is the product of a federal, industry, academic, and nonprofit collaboration, "reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel does not eliminate the need for a geologic repository, because there is residual high level waste from the reprocessing stream that needs to be sequestered in a geologic repository."
The report concluded that reprocessing would only divert attention away from a viable long-term solution to nuclear waste, and the GNEP program may further complicate the waste disposal problem as it proposes to reprocess spent fuel from not only new domestic reactors, but also from foreign reactors.
The senators warned that the administration's proposed technologies would also result in material that could be easily processed to make a nuclear weapon.
In their letter, the senators noted that commercial reprocessing in Britain, France, Japan, and Russia has resulted in the accumulation of about 250 metric tons of separated plutonium that can be used to make nuclear weapons, exacerbating the risk of terrorists gaining access to this material.
"At a time when the United States is seeking to limit the spread of reprocessing technology and expertise to other countries," they said, "resuming reprocessing would reverse decades of U.S. leadership that contributed to countries such as Argentina, Brazil, South Korea, and Taiwan abandoning their reprocessing ambitions."
The Bush administration is trying to promote nuclear power as a clean energy source that would reduce dependence on fossil fuels, whose use is a major contributor to dangerous climate changes.
But many environmentalists and scientists, who see nuclear reactors as dangerous, say nuclear power undermines real solutions to climate change by diverting resources away from the massive development of renewable energy sources.
"Nuclear reactors are not safe because, in addition to natural disasters, they are also vulnerable to unintentional human error," says Norman Dean of Friends of the Earth (FoE), a network of hundreds of environmental groups around the world.
To Dean, there are many other ways to fight global warming, such as energy conservation and wind and solar power, which are cleaner and safer than nuclear power.
Similar views have also expressed by a number of leading European politicians on the use of nuclear energy for non-military purposes.
Last year in April, former environment ministers from European countries, including Russia, sent a letter to then-UN chief Kofi Annan urging him to reform the mandate of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and stop promoting the use of nuclear energy.
"Nuclear power is no longer necessary," they said in the letter. "We have now numerous renewable technologies available to guarantee the right to safe, clean, and cheap energy."
© 2007 One World.net
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94 Comments so far
Show AllFor those who think nuclear power safe you might look here:
http://www.radiation.org/spotlight/071206_rachel.html
http://www.radiation.org/
You should give up KENDPOTTER, I hope for everyone's sake, you never post another word about DU on this site.
You constinually say I and others overblow the dangers of DU when used as a weapon. Then you say, you have no opinion on the issue. Yet is is very obvious that you do have a very strong opinion and tell readers there is no danger from DU.
Then you say you need a good scientific reference which would back up my assertions. I post one for you to read and ask you several times to explan why it is flawed. If it is not flawed, then you are wrong about your opinions about DU. You refuse to say anthing about that fine artice, pro or con, the minutes from a scientific DU conference.
You insist I am wrong about my comments about DU, but refuse to debate the contents of that article, which I base my opinions on. You offer no links to support your claims. Then you accuse me of being obtuse.
I accuse you of being unreasonable and I do believe from the posts here by both of us, that it is self evident you are. You either debate that article, which you say you did read, or give up. It is clear you realize you are wrong on thissue and refuse to admit that obvious fact. __ I'm obtuse? __ What are you?
Kem,
I give up. I don't know whether you are playing at being obtuse or actually are. Either way I refuse to waste anymore time.
Jungleboy,
Keep your scientist client's nose to the grindstone. We need ITER and the next generation beyond it.
I worked briefly (far too briefly-before the gummint canceled it) on the TPX fusion reactor. I was involved in trying to build the toroidal magnets.
Big science requires big government. Unfortunately, big science then becomes subject to political posturing and irrational budgeting.
It is my firm belief that we did the right thing for the wrong reason when we rejoined the ITER effort. We rejoined to try and punish the French by moving the reactor to Japan after they refused to support us in Iraq. We failed to derail the French reactor and are now a positive contributor to ITER.
Regards,
Bill
HI Ken, Billy, Kendpotter,
My current employer is a fusion scientist and we both are looking for "just science" in the matter.(As in justice) It is interesting to see and hear you all rant towards each other. You should see 'us' go off! I've written off weeks of salary (he is really my client,and I cant charge for talk out of work, its not fair , we go on for hours, we blew one whole day searching on the web and doing equations). Its hurt sometimes, I know it can.
That isn't my point. WE have to work together and we are JUST as bad as BUSH if we HAVE to sick with DIATRIBE.
We need each other to win this fight and I like talking to all of you. Yelling and fighting are not cool, Man! BUT, I have to give it to
jfernst November 27th, 2007 2:30 pm, Cheers! I wrote that down to leave around the house and work or at the bus stop. Yea! Proactive! No names! We all have to get the ones that you just know sing to themselves in the shower or the elevator "I'm a T.V. watcher...I'm a T.V.watcher." to finally think, if you can! Bricks are illegal.
KENDPOTTER, I thought I missed something, so I scrolled back and read all of your posts and don't see where you said you read this link. Hate to harp, but your last post is confusing to me.
If you did read it, why don't you state what is wrong with it if you disagree with it and with me about the dangers of DU? I truly am sorry to say this, but at times you've disagreed in a rather snippy manner. You had asked for some scientific data that was credible.
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/background.htm
Thank you Billy. We use ~IDT~ for all of our long distance calls. The bill is very simple, and our long distance calls dropped from an average of $60 a month to $12. There are no hidden charges and we have a number to use when we are on the road.
We also have a solar water heater I designed and built, It cost me about $125 to build it five years ago. It's great and our electric bill dropped $16 a month. We also use it to keep our master bedroom nice and warm with a radiator. It stays hot until about 5am. It's the only heat we use at night. I'm going to have another larger one to heat the entire house.
Our daughter in New Jersey now pays $450 a month for gas to heat their house and they have the thermostat set at 65 degrees. I damn near froze there last month, we slept in thermal underwear. They now have put a tent in their formal dining room, turn the furnace off and sleep in sleeping bags. Well, talk about changing the subject..... Take Care, Kem.
Okay KENDPOTTER, if you read it, that is where I get my information. So once again, do you agree with the article or not? Why do you refuse to answer that question? If you agree with it, you cannot say I am wrong about the DU issue. If you do not agree, tell us where it is wrong so we can have an intelligent debate. Since you have no opinion on the issue, why do you insist I am wrong about my opinions about DU?
jstevens,
Thanks for the support. I'm glad you find value in my ramblings.
I don't own a hair shirt. My wife would not qualify as a wild honey. I certainly don't eat bugs. But sometimes I do feel like a voice in the wilderness.
Jungleboy,
The energy remaining in the used fuel is irrelevant unless the fuel is reprocessed. If reprocessed, a good deal more energy can be extracted in a second cycle through a watercooled reactor; the French have been doing this for quite a while and the Japanese are beginning to.
There is a limit to the number of times you can run the plutonium through a water cooled reactor. Each time you run it through you have more Pu-240 and less Pu-239. The practical limit is about 2 recycles for the plutonium. I am not sure of the physics, but there are problems with too high a concentration of Pu-240 in a watercooled reactor.
When the nuclear industry was in its infancy, uranium was thought to be harder to find than it has proven to be. The original plan was to reprocess the fuel to improve the fuel efficiency of the industry and thereby conserve uranium. The early plan also anticipated breeder reactors to create additional fuel supplies. When uranium turned out to be plentiful, economics ruled and both the reprocessing and the breeder reactors were shuttled aside.
The collapse of the nuclear power build in the 70's and Carter's freeze on reprocessing because of proliferation issues contributed also to the derailing of the original plans.
Kem,
I am a supporter of renewable energy.
I installed a solar water heater in my home in the 1970s'. All of our kids used cloth diapers and we never ran out of hot water. (I have moved from that home but the panels are still there.)
If I lived in sunny California, I would probably install PV solar on my home if it were technically suitable; the economics are right. The economics are considerably different in Virginia.
As for your power bill, I have trouble figuring out mine also. There are limits to my education. (My power bill isn't as confusing as my phone bills though.)
A fast reactor does have radioactive wastes. Depending on the specific design of the reactor and the associated fuel processing, you can have a final waste stream almost completely devoid of long term radioactive wastes. Most fission fragments from either a watercooled reactor or a fast reactor will die out within 500 years.
A fast reactor can use, again depending on the design, various mixtures of thorium, uranium and plutonium as fuel. You would not want to try to run a reactor on a pure supply of it, but you can also burn, in low concentrations, the other transuranic elements.
Fast reactors typically have an excess supply of neutrons. You can, if you wish, use these neutrons either to transmute some of the uglier fission fragments or to breed additional nuclear fuel.
Regards,
Bill
Kem,
I already told you that I read the related links. Do you not read what I post? I am even acquainted with some of the people. Some of them I have a great deal of respect for. Some of them have their doctorates in Poly Sci (or from a less than accredited school) and should just shut the hell up. Some of them have presented some "interesting" findings in their studies, which have not been able to be repeated by other scientists.
There is a big difference between us - You are entirely certain of your position whereas I am absolutely certain of very little. You are a believer, a zealot, a proselytizer, whereas, I am an agnostic.
I've witnessed scientists change what's known, contradict previous theory, and lay waste to "common sense". After all, at one time, we all knew the earth was flat. You are absolutely correct, anyone can have an opinion.
In reference to your question concerning nuclear waste, I don't think all of it can be burned or transmuted in a fast reactor. I do know that the potential exists to change a pretty large percentage of the existing waste into a stable, non-radioactive form, thus significantly reducing the quantity that must be permanently entombed ala Yucca Mountain.
BTW I never refered to you as scum, I don't think that at all, and I was polite to you. Cynical? Yes. I wouldn't be if you would fairly debate, and answer questions I ask you. I reply to yours. Who is beng irrational here?
Uh, KENPPTTER, don't you believe the same about me, that I believe of you? Seems to be rational to me for us to disagree. I don't dislike you, or Billy or anyone else for it.
Did you bother to read that offered link, if so do you disagree with the contents? If not, what is your argument? If you do disagree, where are your arguments on the subject? You didn't bother to read it did you?
So tell us, is ALL atomic waste used for fuel in FAST reactors? Is there NO radio-active waste from a FAST reactor plant? If all cannot be used for fuel what do we do with the waste not used?
I'd bet you will not reply to any of those questions, I hope you will however.
I know you are highly educated on the nuclear subject, __I am not. One does not need to be highly educated to have opinions, based upon what information on the subject is readily available to all. There is a difference of education and common sense. Nuclear power is dangerous and the man-made, unnatural, poisonous waste produced is deadly and must be stored for millions of years, or we should be honest and say, __ forever.
Kem,
"Unfortunantly AYMON, most atomic waste produced by using uranium for fuel in a nuclear power plant, is not natural at all, it is man made poison and there is no known method of destroying it. Deep Earth or deep space will not destroy it. Only time will render it safe. The time is billions of years for much of it."
That statement "no known method" is quite simply wrong. The long half-life transuranics can be transmuted in Fast reactors. You don't have to take my word for it. Look it up.
I would really like to know why it is that we can both read the same information and you can be so certain of your opinion and that mine is wrong. I have considerable education in the field, work with some of the top scientists in health physics, yet am obviously dumber than a ham. Is it because I don't agree with you? That is not rational.
Me too JSTEVENS, I kid him terrible. Hey take the time to read this link. It will fully explain why DU is so horrible. Try it, it won't take long and is a real learning experience. It fully explains why so many are unaware of the truth about DU dangers.
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/background.htm
Kem Patrick,
Billy is outnumbered on the nuclear issues, however this is probably because of the complexity of nuclear power and extreme prejuduce against it. Then you have people like Mr. Wasserman and Ralph Nader who are looking for the easy article and playing on the public's fears and uncertainties. All one has to do is say nuclear power is bad, really bad, and you have an instant audience. Throw in the Chernobyl tragedy every time and make sure you don't mention that the plant was archaic and quite irrelevant to the modern nuclear industry.
There is so much misinformation floating around that it is truly difficult to know what to believe. However, I don't worry too much about DU. It is an unfortunate choice of weapon in my opinion, but since the Uranium is depleted, it is probably about as toxic as other heavy metals such as lead.
Remember the Sillicone breast implant recall, and all of the testimony from people who claimed they had a barrage of horrible symptoms, all attributable to the implants. That was quite conclusively disproven, but the process took years.
I don't understand nuclear reprocessing very well. It is my understanding that we currently dispose of the uranium rods after just one use even though a large percentage of energy still remains. Carter era legislation called for this protocol because the US wanted to set an example for other nations, so that they wouldn't reprocess either. I don't understand the physics, but I can comment on the political flaws of this policy. It didn't work. Other nations do reprocess their fuel.
My biggest problem with the idea is that George Bush is in favor. I can't imagine that he would be on the right side of any issue.
I always enjoy the objective and informed account presented by Billy_y4.
Billy, have you ever noticed that you are greatly outnumbered when posting on the nuclear issues?
We'd love to have one with your obvious intellect and education working on clean energy, and I bet you would feel better too.
Bill,
I can understand the Government taking care of the used fuel, bad economics are prevalent everywhere. What about the energy produced from the re manufactured fuel rods? Why isn't this a major factor in how we get rid of waste? Is the return just too small for quick returns since the government (tax payer) pays for the waste?
Nope Bill, there are several articles there and at least two artilces you missed. Go back to th earchives and reaad the comments from another in that Wasserman article. It wasn't me or Paul, I believe it was ???? 001
What about my mysterious electric bill charges, that our company can't really explain to any satisfaction?
Kem,
I googled "french nuclear waste" and, other than governmental and intergovernmental information, I got an old article outlining Greenpeace attempting to interfere with depleted uranium shipments to Russia. The article decried the French government classifying the shipping information. I would assume they classify the information to avoid confrontations.
Why the French ship their DU to Russia rather mystifies me but does not worry me. The Russian enrichment centrifuges are very good, perhaps more cost effective for hard stripping the tails than European centrifuges.
Is this what's got your panties in a bunch? This is much ado about nothing.
Bill
Hey Billy glad you are back. Maybe you can explain these charges on my current electric bill.
Enviromental benefits surcharge
System benefit charge
The cost of the electricity we used is $38.41 with the other charges 'before taxes', it is $71.74
Hey, did you ever look up the mess France is in with their current nuclear waste problems? Whooo pee.
KENDPOTTER, I missed where you wrote I was intelligent. If you did, you could get an argument from my mate and children. I did read where you state, "I overblow" the dangers of DU. Then you blithly explain, that DU is not dangerous and give examples of things that are far more dangerous. I'm aware that a loaded gun fired, or a runaway bus can kill anyone and do so instantly.
You seem to be aware that a inhaled tiny nanometer of DU can kill also, but yo brush that off with an other cnflicting comment. Inhaling DU is not an immediate death, it's a long slow death from radiation poisoning. Your comments are identical to the spin put out by our government and governmental agencies such as the WHO. Why would our government mis-inform on such a serious issue? Many reasons they do, the most obvious is they would be liable for killing millions of people and for using weapons forbidden by the Geneva Conventions.
I don't write comments that are MY opinion on the subject of DU, I refer to the scientists and doctors who have given us excellent scientific proof on the subject. On a recent prior thread, you stated you wished to hold judgement until you had better evidence. Then you don't hold judgement and state that DU is not a danger, unless inhaled. That's a fact, DU isn't particularilly dangerous unless inhaled and to date there are trillions times trillions of that invisible death, floating in the atmosphere our waters. or lying on our soils of the planet.
Don't argue my comments, argue those offered in that link I gave. Then argue them and we can debate the issue and any disagrements you may have with the people who wrote it.
Pete Domenici (R-NM) is a huge proponent of nuclear energy. Look how many plants are located in NM, and how many more are being planned under the guise of "alternative, renewable energy". What has Gov. Richardson done to prevent this potential disaster? Did he sell out too?
Domenici was involved in the firing of the federal district attorney there. Isn't he under investigation for that?
Also, I read that he's retiring after this term. Isn't there a way to table this motion until after the November elections?
This country is being run by greedy fascists! I can not wait until January 20, 2009.
Unfortunantly AYMON, most atomic waste produced by using uranium for fuel in a nuclear power plant, is not natural at all, it is man made poison and there is no known method of destroying it. Deep Earth or deep space will not destroy it. Only time will render it safe. The time is billions of years for much of it.
How deep should we store it? If the Earth was the size of a large grapfruit, our rocky mantle would be as thin as an onion skin. We have already well proven, we cannot safely store atomic waste for even 60 years when we have it in our eyesight. To beleive we can store it safely for even hundreds or thousands of years is not believeable. Atomc waste destroys the containers we build to contain it, they must be renewed at intervals.
Whether we store it above or below ground makes little difference. It is still time bombs waiting to go off someday. It is an out of sight, out of mind idea to bury it. Finally, we have no idea of all of the deep aquifers on this planet, drilling for oil and reaching depths of five miles or more the drillers frequently strike fresh water.
CONTINUING THE QUESTION ON DEAP EARTH RADIOACTIVE WASTE DISPOSAL. See my post above.
Thanks PJD, KEM PATRICK and WTF for your responses to my question in an earlier post above. All three posts have valid issues and information that I would like to continue here as dispassionately as possible in a scientific manner to at least get our information correct before we enter into discussion and opinion on the ethics of nuclear energy etc.
There is absolutely no debate between FUSION nuclear energy (that we get from the Sun) and FISSION (atomic nucleus breaking apart) nuclear energy that we now get from the Uranium and Plutonium nuclear reactors today.
The former is clean as whistle and the latter is dirty and lethal. It is not that the energy itself is lethal; it is the radioactive waste generated from the RADIACTIVE MATERIALS that are used to harvest the nuclear fission energy. That cannot be dumped into a standard garbage dump. It needs to be stored away from life forms for thousands and sometimes millions of years.
IF it is possible to use the BUILT-IN ( by Nature) cleansing processes of Mother Earth to store or even clean the stuff its bowels of the Earth- -and I literally mean the BOWELS - - away from any useful-to-life resources that ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT be contaminated, such as water and small bio-organisms, THEN the "dirty" nuclear energy becomes clean as whistle also.
That is one reason why I raised the question of deep Earth storage in the first place. The second important reason is that fusion energy, even in the amount that is needed in a small sized city such as Eugene Oregon or Palo Alto, California, is not currently technically feasible and won't be for the next 25 years at the minimum, and 50 years realistically.
Why? Well the Russian, American, European and Japanese (perhaps now India and China too) scientists have been working on commercial fusion energy for the last 50 years and have got very little ahead of their last position about 15 to 20 years ago. In research facilities at Princeton, Russia, CERN in Europe and others, using the TOKAMAK reactor, originally designed in the Soviet Union in the 1970's, and its descendents, they have been able to achieve fusion in a minute little dot in the middle of a vacuum to last a few milliseconds or a little more. Nuclear fusion plasma temperatures, like the core of the Sun, reach around 100 million degrees Celsius. At these temperatures nothing made of matter remains in its original state; it becomes nuclear plasma. Obviously then that "dot" had to be held suspended by enormous magnetic fields in vacuum.
This makes nuclear fusion not a viable option to stave off peak-oil and climate change disaster.
Also there is no such thing as "cold fusion" from chemical reactions, earlier hoaxes not withstanding.
As for the other renewable sources such as solar, wind and ocean power, and so forth, there is no scientifically known configuration of these to be able to replace even 10 million barrels of oil a day in the next 5 years. The world consumes 85 million barrels of oil a day today. And that is at PEAK OIL now or past it (many experts say the peak occurred in 2005). Consumption is increasing because of the rapid industrialization of China and India, and in the next 5 years it will increase to 90-95 million barrels per day, which is 10 million over peak.
The price of oil does not move up LINEARLY! It moves up EXPONENTIALLY. This means that a 10 million-barrel a day shortfall will cause prices to rise to $150 or more per barrel from today's $90-95.
This is a recipe for endless wars by imperial powers such as the US. Further, in addition to the horrific loss in human life and suffering in the ME where the most oil resources are located, and the $trillions wasted in arms and fighting and health care, and the wars will take away the world's attention, will and resources away from addressing Global Climate Change which will require cooperative actions and $trillions in money immediately.
So the only viable option we now have to avoid further catastrophe is fission nuclear energy combined with the alternative sources, to minimize reliance on nuke energy as much as technically possible.
This having been said let us continue our discussion of the deep storage or other above ground storage as KEM suggests. WTF's point is extremely important that any storage area should be safely away from underground water (aquifer) resources. I would go even further - - it should be inside solid granite and igneous rock as found deep inside mountains, AWAY from ANY LIFE FORM or LIFE SUSTAINING SUBSTANCE. That is why the price tag is going to high.
PJD: Thanks for the starting information. What I am surprised (and possibly I am under- or misinformed on this one) by is fact that in the fierce debate that has been going on between environmentalists and the nuclear energy for at laest 25 years, a large part of it is based on the waste disposal issue (aside from rare but possible 3-mile Island and Chernobyl(which was simply Soviet slopiness) syndrome) and no sustained discussion on all the technically possible means of waste disposal.
Lo! What we have onstead, as has happened so much in the last 25 years since Reagan, there is confused babble of opinion and counter opinion where the SCIENTIFIC FEASIBILTYand FINANCIAL issues are mixed up into an incoherent soup. For example, it is possible and I do not have this info. handy, some expert scientists may have explored the deep Earth possibility, but some rightwing bean counter with little economic knowledge CEO or Reagan and Bush administration functionary may have killed the research because each such facility would cost $10 billion or more to construct.
Nobody has bothered to explain in a SYSTEMATIC WAY whether or not the deep earth and deep rock options are technically feasible. In fact it behooves the Nuclear Industry to produce a documentary with animation and other graphics to explain to the average person HOW waste disposal can be made 99% safe. And if there are flaws in such an industry documentary, it behooves the Government and the Environmental Movement to produce a counter documentary such as Michael Moore's "Sicko" or Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth". In fact Gore should have used the podium when he had it to include something about how to meet energy demand and Global Climate Change responsibility.
So your technical help is much appreciated, and if you have any technical websites I can get further info., it would be helpful. I hope that some of the CD readers have the necessary training in geology and engineering to advance this discussion further.
KEM PATRICK: Your principled stand against any form of nuclear radioactive material any where is well taken given your tremendous amount of information on DU and its metal-toxic hazard. My point though is that we can also solve the problem of DU, which comes largely from U235 reactors from the waste U238 that is left and notallowing weapons use for it. What is happening now is that the warmongers are using ME as the waste-disposal site with DU waepons.
There are billions of tons of radioactive materials freely occurring in deep Earth. As I said before, Mother Earth and Nature have taken that into consideration and made deep Earth a marvelous cleansing system inasmuch as forests are for green house gases. Why not utilize these natural waste disposal facilities of deep Earth (may be even 5-10 miles deep in granite or other hard rock from which no radiation can emerge on the surface) if they can be feasibly accessed?
Your surface storage idea is intriguing. Is it possible to build such fail-safe boxes on the surface that would not be destroyed by man-made or natural disasters only to spew out that killer waste? I dunno. KEM, you should provide some further info. here.
WTF: As I said above your worry about humans in their sloppiness and greed contaminating natural aquifers and small organic life -forms which sustain larger life forms is very valid. But I was thinking of deep in- the- mountain core or some such hard igneous rock places, of which there are thousands in North America alone, where no natural aquifers are located. In short, I mean scientifically proven safe storage rock areas.
We should continue this discussion as it focuses on many key issues such as energy replacement, Global Climate change, environment, types of nuclear energies and generators, in a very simple setting:
DEEP EARTH RADIACTIVE WASTE DISPOSAL
Peace
Kem
Would you be kind enough to explain to me how I offended you? I read your links, referred to you as an "intelligent guy". Yet somehow, just because I prefer to suspend judgment until I see something that is the product of a well designed study, that has been peer-reviewed, and published in a scientific journal such as "Journal of the American Health Physics Society", I am scum.
You may be the greatest driver in the world, but that won't stop some idiot, drunk from killing you. The odds are far better than from DU doing you in. The worst weapons of WWI including the Maxim machine gun, rapid fire artillery (like the French 75), tanks, planes, and poison gas killed only a fragment of the number of people that perished due to the Spanish Influenza pandemic of 1918.
nspire
DU is less of a radiological risk than naturally occurring uranium. The most radiolical fractions (isotopes U-234 and U-235) are removed during the enrichment process. The remaining uranium is almost entirely U-238 which is a alpha and beta emitter. What little gamma is emitted (along with any beta or alpha not emitted directly from the surface) tends to be blocked by the outer layers. There is virtually no radiological hazard from external exposure. Inhalation is a different story. However, the chemical toxicity (uranium is a heavy metal and has chemical toxicity like arsenic) tends to overshadow the radiological effects. Renal (kidney) damage starts to occurr at 3 micrograms/gram of tissue. That is what is known. You are free to believe as you like, but you are taking it on the faith of someone's word (no different from an evangelical Christian preacher in my book) not peer-reviewed science.
If you want to run around "the sky is falling" style proclaiming the dangers of DU, fine. Just don't let it distract you while you are in the crosswalk, because that bus bearing down on you is a much more imminent danger.
I do believe that KENDPOTTER has never bothered to read the entire, or perhaps any of the link I offered. Of course he may discover that he is, and has been, wrong and fears admitting such. He continually puts out the same old government spin on the DU issue.
If he/she will argue the points given by the scientists who were at that conference, instead of me, I may be more appreciative of his comments. I only offer the opinions of those far more qualifed to speak on the subject than I am.
BTW, I was once a coach driver and have over two milion miles of accident free driving, or even scratching a coach. So I don't fear dying while driving my car. I do fear the continual use of DU as a weapon and as such polluting the entire planet with radio-active waste matter. You are free to believe what you wish, it's still a free country.
Sorry, the edit bunged up, and I wasn't able to make my post more benign.
I had interpreted that from your comment "DU. It is not and cannot be by definition very hazardous, radiologically."
So how benign is it to you, the same as stretching out on the natively occurring raw ore?
Wow Namaste,
I just learned something myself. If I stand on the science rather than completely agreeing with the most hysterical ranters on the board, my description of DU can magically change from "toxic heavy metal" to "benign".
Gosh, it's like magic. I think I will start to believe in that instead, since it doesn't appear to make much difference.
Gee KENPOTTER, I learned something myself today:
from wikpedia: "Biological warfare (BW), also known as a germ warfare, biological weapons, and bioweapons, is the use of any pathogen (bacterium, virus or other disease-causing organism) as a weapon of war.
Note that using nonliving toxic products, even if produced by living organisms (e.g., toxins), is considered Chemical warfare under the provisions of the Chemical Weapons Convention (CCW).
A biological weapon may be intended to kill, incapacitate or seriously impede an adversary. It may also be defined as the material or defense against such employment."
How does this petty CCW definition change the biological facts of serious health impacts for those close to exploded DU - which BTW, is not supposed to be any kind of "weapon", as we're told that it's inert and sooo depleted too. That it kills by both its chemical and radiologic properties makes it 10-fold worse from my perspective.
If DU so benign, would you allow massive (ton) quantities in your city and/or around your kids and extended family (that you like)?
Namaste
__ __ __ __ We must be the change
__ __ __ __ we wish to see in the world __ Gandhi
Kem,
You can write Playboy centerfolds if you want - doesn't sound like a bad job to me. However, you still can't change the physical properties of DU. It is not and cannot be by definition very hazardous, radiologically. It is far more hazardous as a toxic, heavy metal (we've been over this ground, before). I don't care if you want to call bubblegum a biological weapon, it doesn't make it so. You are much more likely (many thousands of times) to die due to the effects of a biological agent, like the flu, than from DU. Driving your car is the most dangerous activity you will ever engage in. But, what the hell, worry about what you want. It is a harmless past-time.
Hows about if I say apple and you say orange?
Then are you wrong or do we just wish to argue over words usage that any can understand? Thank you for the astute lessons BTW. My IQ is pretty low.
I DUNNO KENPOTTER, I AM REALLY A RATHER DULL, UNIFORMED AND IGNORANT PERSON, WHO BELIEVES THAT IF __DU __WILL CAUSE CANCER IN MY LUNG OR BRAIN, ALTER MY DNA AND CAUSE MANY OTHER SERIOUS DISEASES IF I SHOULD INHALE ANY, IT IS A WEAPON THAT INTERFERES WITH THE NORMAL BIOLOGY OF MY LIVING CELLS. I STUPIDELY THOUGHT THAT WAS A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON IN THOSE REGARDS. I KNOW "DU" RADIATES LITTLE TINY ATOM CHANGING ELECTRONS AND STUFF TOOOO. ___ SCARY STUFF THOSE ATOMS.
IF I USED THE WRONG WORD, I AM TRULY SORRY FOR BEING SO STUPID TO MIS-LEAD ANYONE. DON'T NOBOBY EVER READ ANYTHNIG I EVER WRITE HERE AGAIN. AND DON'T BOTHER TO READ THAT GOOD LINK I POSTED, BECAUSE IT MAY HARM YOUR BRAIN THOUGHTS AND SHIT LIKE THAT. THANK YOU KENPPOTTER FOR ENLIGHTENING ME AND PUTTNG ME N MY PROPER PLACE. IS IT OKAY WITH YOU IF I WRITE ABOUT PLAYBOY CENTERFOLDS?
Kem
Terminology might not be everything, but it is alot. It is difficult to have a rational conversation when I say apple and you say orange.
Engineers, clowns, cops, and child-molesters are all forms of people. If you are a cop (or even a clown) do you want me thinking it's equivalent to being a child-molester?
A biological weapon is not a weapon that attacks biota (life and living things). All lethal weapons (and non-lethal weapons, sometimes) by virtue of definition attack biota. You have displayed a level of intelligence in these boards that belies the ignorance of a statement like "DU is a biological weapon". If you are not going to take the effort to use the correct terminology, why would anyone bother to take you any more seriously then THE REALLY LOUD SHOUTING PERSON?
I have a hearing aid, you don't have to yell.
Your yelling is correct however, if you are attempting to get the message WAY OUT THERE!
jfernst
Wow, typing in all caps sure impresses me with the validity of your rant. The exclamation points are particularly effective. You must be right if you use that much emphasis. I can't wait until we get a lid on "Old Faithful" and start putting it to work so that we can shut some of those dirty nukes down.
THE PRODUCTION OF ELECTRICITY UTILIZING HEAT FROM NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY IS ONLY 5% EFFICIENT! IT IS A RIDULOUS, NON-RENEWABLE RESOURCE TO CONSIDER IN HELPING WITH OUR ENERGY NEEDS. RENEWABLE IS THE KEY WORD! RENEWABLE. SOLAR! WIND! TIDAL! CURRENT! GEYSERS! HYDROGEN (WHICH IS 95% EFFICIENT)!
NUCLEAR IS 5% EFFICIENT, AND, CONSIDERING THE RISKS AND DAMAGES TO OUR HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT, OFF THE TABLE!
Of course one can argue terminology all day. The fact remains, atomic energy and or use of nuclear waste for weapons is insane.
DU isn't a biological weapon when used in ammunition, burned and ionized when fired? I do believe it is you who should do a little background work, take the time to read this link. DU not only is a radiation hazard when inhaled, it IS a biological weapon when it alters our DNA etc.
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/background.htm
Paul K
You are lacking in terminology/education.
"There is no such thing as rendering Plutonium in a form that is workable for nuclear energy but unworkable as a bioweapon."
There is no such thing as a Pu bioweapon. Bioweapons are formed from living/semi-living organisms such as bacteria or a virus. Anthrax, equine encephalitis, or the real bogeyman, smallpox are all bioweapons. Even botulin toxin (though it is produced through a biological process) while commonly considered a bio-weapon is in fact a form of chemical warfare because it can not reproduce once it has entered a host. Pu can be a toxic, a radiological weapon (dirty bomb), or a nuclear device, but not a bioweapon. Assuming you meant radiological weapon, you are wrong.
"Have a suicidal flunky take the fuel rods out of the reactor and lay them all on the ground together in a critical pile. Poof! All the plutonium is now vaporized into billions of tiny breathable dust particles. Same effect as dropping the bomb, but leaves the houses standing."
Cannot happen. Said flunky would be dead before he could finish pulling a single rod. Spent fuel is what is termed "self-protecting". The emitted radiation, in the abscence of protecting water or cask, is so fierce that anyone attempting to handle it would simply die in minutes. Third generation reactor designs quite simply, cannot melt down under any circumstances, let alone generate enough heat to vaporize Pu.
"By the way, DU is a biological weapon."
Absurdly wrong, as explained above. If you want to weigh in on issues of science, please get a background in the subject matter first.
jungleboy,
Do not dispair. Long term nuclear waste can be disposed of. It just can't be done in a water cooled reactor.
Of the 450 or so nuclear reactors in service today, about 360 are watercooled. The reason is simple: they are the cheapest to build and operate, have proven to be reliable and have a good safety record. They have thus come to dominate the marketplace.
The way the nuclear market is structured in the US, the federal government accepts responsibility for the used fuel and the utilities pay a fee ($0.001/kwh) to the government for them to do this. This fee, plus the cost of additional fresh fuel, is less than the cost of recycling the used fuel.
Watercooled reactors are not very fuel efficient. Most of the potential nuclear energy remains in the fuel when it must be removed from the reactor. Watercooled reactors both create and burn plutonium (and other transuranic elements) while they are in operation. Unfortunately they create more plutonium (and other transuranics) than they burn. Thus there is an accumulation of plutonium and the other transuranic elements in the used fuel when it is removed. Most of the fuel when it is removed, however, is unburned uranium.
If you want to get good fuel efficiency and fully burn plutonium and the other transuranic elements, it requires either a fast or a pretty fast reactor. Basically a fast or pretty fast reactor doesn't have any water and either none or just a little bit of graphite in it. (A pretty fast reactor is more commonly called an epithermal reactor.)
Because the neutrons in a fast reactor pack a bigger punch, they can burn U-238 and Pu-240 efficiently. This is what a watercooled reactor cannot do. This is what give fast reactors their good fuel efficiency. A fast reactor does not have a serious accumulation of transuranic elements when the fuel is removed.
Because a fast reactor cannot have watercooling, most in the US have been cooled with liquid sodium. The Russians have used liquid lead in some of their fast reactors as well as sodium.
Fast reactors are more expensive to build and operate than watercooled reactors. Under the current market structure in the US, there is very little incentive for utilities to build them. If you want them built in the US, either the market needs to be restructured or they will be built by the government.
Regards,
Bill
WTF, that is exactly correct and is already a major, forever lasting problem in several areas. Our water is far more precious than gold or gems, we must have water, gold and gems are a luxury.
It seems as if some believe, if poison is buried in deep holes, it is out of sight and 'safely' out of mind. I would much prefer the radioactive crap we have so foolishly manufactured, was stored in the most stable land areas possible, in above ground vaults which can be more easily monitored for the millions of years requird.
I seriously question PJD's comments, of the rather small amount of nuclear waste which requires storing. I also am not an expert on the subject, but I understand we will be hauling tractor trailer loads of the crap to the storage area in Nevada for years to come, several loads a day criss crossing the land. That is if that earthquake prone area is ever opened for use. Storing nuclear waste is tatamount to holding a tiger by the tail.
Someday, another serious spill or accident WILL occur. Someday, we WILL have a disaster at a nuclear power plant and then we will know and realize, just how foolish we were to ever allow nuclear power in the first place.
We must begin now to use clean energy methods, or we will leave our grandkids a planet that is a poisonous wasteland.
Sorry Aymon, I don't like the idea of hiding nuclear waste in deep holes, like brooming dirt under the rug, it may look good but it's still there, radiating away and threatening our aquifers. I am not sorry you are back and hope you stay, you are a swell person and offer great opinions. You didn't offer an opinion on this, you asked a very good question.
The one easy-peasy issue that all humans can rally behind is the deadly certainty inherent in producing nuclear product. Even in a no-brain world this is a no-brainer. Until a process has been developed that can turn nuclear waste into a form that is 100% inert, nuclear power, fuel, weapons have no place on this planet. The fact that all of us shroud ourselves in this sickening denial of a physical fact even a small child can grasp reveals just how far we are committed to digging our own mass grave. Physical laws aren't negotiable and nature has no tolerance for idiots.
Of all the world's problems, and by that I mean those created by human stupidity, this one is at the top of the list and the easiest and hardest to fix. Easy? Stop producing lethal radioactive product in any form. Hard? To convince idiots that "no way to neutralize the waste" means just that!
PJD wrote Yes, such a thing is done every day in mines all over the world. The Homestake mine in South Dakota and lots of South Afrrican mines are more than 9000 feet deep and have removed much grater volumes of rock from this depth.
All these deep mines that you spoke of have one thing in common: An extremely active aquifer. Deep mines are wet and require the pumping of 100s thousands of gallons/year to keep them dry. Where does the pumped water go? To cooling ponds on the surface.
Really deep holes are a terrible place for waste. One leak at depth and the water supply for hundreds of miles is trashed.
Folks, fission or fusion are not the answer. They increase the annual heat budget of the Earth, something we all know contributes to the other little problem called global warming.
There is no answer except a radical reduction in human population. As the population increases, demand for energy increases. And seeing that we will never have energy that is 100% efficient, we will continue to kill our planet and climate. Its a no-win situation.
imagine the clean power generated if...
windmills lined the median strip of every interstate highway
all the area covered by suburbia were covered with solar panels instead
coastal cities floated a few dozen simple mechanical tidal generators
unfortunately the corporate coal & oil lobby will never, ever allow it
what a shame
aymon,
"Is it possible to dig a hole deep enough into the some area of solid hard rock into the Earth's crust to then carve out a cavern (bunker) horizontally - - a man made cave -large enough to store 5-10 thousand tons of nuclear waste?"
Yes, such a thing is done every day in mines all over the world. The Homestake mine in South Dakota and lots of South Afrrican mines are more than 9000 feet deep and have removed much grater volumes of rock from this depth.
There are limestone and salt mines 3000 feet below the surface in Ohio and Michigan that have left stable caverns big enough to comfortably hold the population of Cleveland.
10,000 tons isn't very much volume of rock (or nuclear waste) - it represents a football field area about 2.5 feet deep. A longwall coal mining unit cuts at least 10,000 tons of coal (ultimately creating 37,000 tons of CO2) and moves it up to 2000 vertical feet to the surface every single day.
And my understanding is that we wouldn't need many such facilities - all the high level nuclear waste generated so far could be stored on a football field about 20 feet deep. That's the volume of coal a medium sized coal mine digs out of the ground every few days.
And, I dearly hope the anti-nuclear Luddites aren't now turning on fusion energy - some forms of which which use or produce no radioactive material at all. Fusion is the ultimate answer.
I have no technical expertise whatsoever, but let me cite the obvious.
This is a program that is extremely technical in nature and so risky--in terms of potential payback--that the free market refuses to underwrite it.
It is being advanced by an individual who does not believe in evolution, who invaded a country because God told him to, who was totally misinformed about the existence of WMD in Iraq, who has never successfully operated a business, who called for privatizing the social security system, and who was unable to launch a successful humanitarian/rescue/reconstruction mission following the destruction of a major city.
To me, that's more than enough information on which to base a decision.
PDA is conducting this straw poll to determine which of the currently declared Democratic Candidates our membership is supporting for President.
Polling is open until 3pm Eastern time on December 4.)
https://www.pdamerica.org/polls/poll-pres-2008-1.php
The only safe place for any type of nuclear reactor is a safe distance from major population centers, say 93 million miles, in the sun. We receive over a thousand times the solar energy that we need for all our needs, and have plenty of geothermal and wind resources as well. Hydro-pumped storage works great for providing peak load and for night time use also. Reprocessing just means making Plutonium, and we are just needlessly extending the radiation/weapons danger. Plutonium does not exist in nature, why make it? Making it just increases our risk factor.
How does the Bush administration know for sure that Iran is trying to make nuclear weapons with its reprocessing and enrichment schemes? Because that is exactly what the United States of Israel plans to do. The only justification ever really achieved for the so called "too cheap to meter" generation of electricity by nuclear energy, was the provision of material for nuclear weapons. Nuclear energy has been an economic and greenhouse gas waste by all other criteria. Therefore it follows that any country dabbling in nuclear energy must be really developing nuclear weapons material. So we can be sure of the guilt of Iran, Israel, France, Pakistan, India, China, and so on. If the capitalist USI cannot make it pay, and they are supposed to be able to exploit all natural and human resources, then no one can. Each and every one of the worlds non-profitable nuclear reactors is a generating factory for nuclear weapons material, not for any economic purpose, thanks to the generosity tax payers and the propaganda of governments.
How about this, folks? Let's do our experimenting with fusion technology on the moon. I know there are hurdles to overcome, but it makes more sense to irradiate a dead rock than a living Earth.
After 65+ years of experiments, hundreds of billions of dollars invested, no viable means to utilize the fusion technology a number of posters here are going on & on about, and certainly no way to 'take out the trash' nuclear technology creates, isn't it about time we took the sane route of quickly ramping up renewable producion (while we rapidly ramp down use of fossil fuels). Then we completely phase out nuclear for good. End of discussion...except for twisting congressional arms to adequately fund renewables, the hard part for sure.
PS Just kidding about the moon thing. Makes about as much sense as shooting nuclear waste into space, but others on these threads have suggested that, too...forget about it!
Hi folks; I'm not a nuclear expert, just a half baked chemist with a 30+ year old BA. Maybe the Argonne people are doing a bit of a sales job to keep the funding, but it sounds like a truly promising technology. It would actually end uranium mining for years because the reactors would need just some start-up DU and go from there. Google ANL IFR program or ANL AFR...
Regarding sodium, I believe the Peachbottom reactor in PA uses liqid sodium and has been in operation for years (if it hasn't been shut down for old age).
Regarding France, nuclear produces 75% of their electricity with hydro most of the rest. They have the most carbon neutral power generation in the world. They reprocess as proposed by the plan described above, and they planned to use fast reactors to someday consume the waste from the LWRs, and eventually replace them. For whatever reasons, the fast reactors aren't working out and they are having major NIMBY problems with disposal (storage forever) in a relatively small country.
Regarding fast reactors and plutonium. The plutonium should never be enriched to a high enough level in the Argonne model reactor to be tempting to a terrorist.This may be a substantially different technology than concerned President Carter.
Regarding geothermal, maybe Kem Patrick is right. President Obama and Congress should appoint a multidisciplinary council to investigate all the options for getting the US off fossil fuels as quickly as possible, and implement a plan by he end of 2009.
QUESTION ON DEEP EARTH NUCLEAR WASTE STORAGE
KEM PATRICK: Hi there. Sorry my post responding to your greetings in an earlier post didn't post. My posts at CD somehow get delayed by several hours before they get posted at the original time I posted. But by that time several other posts would have gone by and I really do not have the oppportunity to engage in back and forth i real time like you and others here do.
I took a break from posting at CD, but I am back to add my two bits here and there.
Here is a question to you and many others here who have far more engineering and scientific knowledge about Uranium and its mining, processing and so forth. I do know the basics of enriching U235 and the by product U238 which contains the DU.
My question is:
Is it possible to dig a hole deep enough into the some area of solid hard rock into the Earth's crust to then carve out a cavern (bunker) horizontally - - a man made cave - -large enough to store 5-10 thousand tons of nuclear waste?
The cave should be deep enough as dictated by science and engineering so that neither radiation nor any of the stuff it self, especially DU cannot escape? For sealing one may have to use cages and doors made of lead reinforced by steel and concrete.
Of course we would need many such facilities but first the issue is whether it is even technically feasible.
I have always had this intuition that this should be possible in principle given some of the deep mines and the underground cities for the rich and powerful and continuance of government that have been built into the Rockies to be resistant to thermonuclear blasts of 20-100 megatons.
Also we know (and I very recently read an article on this, I believe, in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists) that the Iranians with German technical help have built underground military and other nuclear/biochemical weapons storage and operations bunkers in the Zagros mountains that are deep enough (1-3000 feet deep I think)that are reinforced to withstand at least one direct thermonuclear blast.
But the bunker (cavern plus cage) I am thinking about may need a hole that is really deep - - 5000 to 10K feet below the surface
I do not have the engineering and military background that you and other folks here have to say categorically that the deeper entrance hole and the large horizantal bunker I am thinking about is technically feasible.
It may be that the thing is feasible but its costs may be several billion dollars (say 10-20 billion). This is too large for any one nuclear power utility to bear. That we can also discuss later. To me the financing does not appear to be an unsolvable problem. If building the safe storage is feasible and the stuff can remain sealed for several hundred thousand years then one can go to (dirty)nuclear power in a big way and reduce dependence on oil. That would eliminate the oil pretext for wars and greenhouse gases pollution.
This is a serious question since I am trying to to see how the economics can be worked out so that the cost gets distributed or even bundled into financial instruments to companies and other primary investors. Or if we want to have Government control, then the Government can form something like Fannie Mae that is used to finance housing.
Any ideas on the technical
There is only one reason Bush wants to go ahead with this; money for his friends. Everything this administration has done since it was appointed was for the enrichment of himself and the rest of the neocon mafia. Think about it.
Here's a riddle for you.
Q: How do you know when Bush is about to say something stupid?
A: When his mouth opens.
Billy-y4
So it is an unending loop of toxic waste? These radioactive elements won't just die off? Fusion I know is only a dream at this point I know. There is really no way to store this stuff permanently? What about dumping it into old dried up oil wells? Would it just leach out into the surrounding water supply? People/companies use old waste materials, gasses ect. to pressurize the remaining oil into surfacing. I'm pulling straws here I know, I'd really just like to send it into someone else's sun or something, but I like to learn too. The stuff just doesn't burn up, huh?
Just like to old saying...Rape is cheaper! Leave the mess for someone else.
Hey, thanks for the reply!
Oh, if anyone has been paying attention to the news. Plutonium has recently been found in Santa Fe's drinking water supply (2006 Santa Fe Water Quality Report). LANL are involved in mitigation. It is big news here, but it is nowhere to be seen in the national MSM.
There is no such thing as rendering Plutonium in a form that is workable for nuclear energy but unworkable as a bioweapon.
Have a suicidal flunky take the fuel rods out of the reactor and lay them all on the ground together in a critical pile. Poof! All the plutonium is now vaporized into billions of tiny breathable dust particles. Same effect as dropping the bomb, but leaves the houses standing.
By the way, DU is a biological weapon.
Jungleboy,
I'm not a fan of wet processing of used nuclear fuel but if you do it,f this is pretty much what you get:
3% of the weight is structural material. The radioactivity will die out in about 200 years.
92% of the weight is uranium. Most of the U-235 has been burned out leaving U-238. There will be a small amount of other isotopes, some of which can be a radiation hazard for 100 years or so. Give this 200 years and it will be just about equivalent to natural uranium.
4% of the weight is fission fragments. This is a really mean collection of radioactive porridge. The radioactivity of this will be pretty low after 500 years.
1% of the weight is plutonium. This will be a mixture of isotopes. It will be more of a radiation hazard than the plutonium used in weaponry. It is usable as a nuclear fuel (as is done in France and Japan) but will not be completely consumed in a water cooled reactor. This material is long lived if not burned in a reactor. 20,000 years or so halflife of the Pu-239 but for some of the other isotopes it is tens of millions.
Well less than 1% will be "other transuranics". This is a mixture of neptunium, americium and curium and some short lived elements. These materials are long lived and give off significant radiation. These are the real "bad boys" of nuclear waste final disposal.
The biggest problem with GNAP reprocessing, IMHO, is the acid waste which contains the fission fragments at the tail end of the process. It contains most of the radioactivity and is corrosive as hell. It is a very difficult waste stream to handle and contain without spillage.
Mark Abram wrote having the ability to make LEU in the quantities needed to fuel a power reactor would mean Iran would have the ability to make enough HEU for a bomb within weeks of a decision to do so.
Well, that's the EASY part of the recipe. That could be done nearly 70 years ago (when America was still playing with toy rockets). Now all ya gotta do is build triggers that will present an acceptable yield, miniaturize the package so that something smaller than a locomotive or container ship can deliver, and appropriate safeguards so that if it falls into the wrong hands, it cannot be armed (or disarmed, as the case may be).
Yes, stolen components may help to kickstart the program, but guarantees an arsenal of 1, 2 maybe 3 devices, tops. This sized program should not keep anyone awake. It is only when a country has an arsenal of 0.1 Beaches that we need to sit up and pay attention.
Too many people think it is possible to McGyver a nuke. It's not that easy and requires enormous, dedicated and generational national resources.
Buy a rocket ship from NASA and see if you can find them. I fear you or we, won't get them back here now. ___ Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. __ Well, maybe a bit longer than tomorrow.
I wanted to addend my last post.
We all know whatever bushie wants to do with the spent fuel will be evil, I just wanted to make my point clear. I'm not for bush reprocessing anything but rock into gravel.
Why did the world turn out this way? Where did all the happy little trees and the happy little clouds that the happy painter painted go? I WANT THEM BACK!
The other issue with Sodium, is that that after it blows up, or along the way - that the chemical end result is sodium hydroxide -- yes that's exactly the same as LYE, and it can take the flesh right off ones bones.
Other than that, I like really do like the idea . . .
Namaste
__ __ __ __ We must be the change
__ __ __ __ we wish to see in the world __ Gandhi
Maybe I'm missing something, I thought that the life of whatever they use to make power off of a nuclear reactor would have a life span of like five hundred years if it was reprocessed instead of the waste products we have now with a life of ten thousand years. I thought the Carter thing was based on purely non-proliferation, which left us with waste we cannot get rid of for millenia. You see where I'm going with this. If we could reprocess the snot out of it so it would be used up, we would not have so much crap for our kids to worry about.
I'm really more pissed we don't have a generator we drive around every day to save energy instead of wasting in on just the radio. Automakers you listening? 15amps is all I'm asking. Plug it into your house and be done with it, the reverse way, run your house off your car. Mobile homes do it.
$200 billion would give us clean energy and begin to reverse global warming, but would not profit the oligarchy as a publicly funded, centralized, liablility exempted, dangerous and forever deadly nucular Bush boondogle.
Hey, sailing is great fun and very relaxing. How is your daughter doing in college? Hope you were all able to go. Sorry I mis-understood, I figured you may have used your ample supply of hot air for a balloon ride, without having to use propane for fuel.
I recall that now. Poorly written? By whose standards? It it's Okay to be wrong, we all make mistakes Billy, don't let it get you down, and do try the prune juice remedy, I understand it works.
Kem, Actually the wind was not hot - it was cold but it shoved my wife and I around on a big pond. I believe you are a boater. We were in a Macgregor 25. Much fun.
The Wasserman I referenced was a poorly written anti-nuclear editorial he had published about a week ago on CD. You were looking for my response.
Regards, Bill
Hey Billy, I went back to the archives and found the Wasserman article. The article was okay, just asking us to not support Bush in funding more nuclear plants. There were a lot of good comments too, Paul MaGill Smith and others. You posted your usual 'support nuclear stuff'. It wasn't a silly article at all and neither is this one. Take Care, Kem
The only thing that needs reprocessing is the Cheney/Bush duo and all their henchmen!
This does not need reprocessing - - the above is enough!
HI there Billy, I don't know what Wasserman paper you are referring to. You know how old people forget to wipe themselves and shit like that. Anyway, if I gave you a link for a Wasserman, it wasn't MY silly paper. And I wouldn't expect you to agree with much of anything I offered anyway. You ever get over that glowing in the dark problem? Try drinking a quart of prune juice twice a day, that cures a lot of ills, like a bad cough for example. ____ You wouldn't dare cough.
Oh, almost forgot, just Google French nuclear industry program and scroll around and you'll find it. You were using wind power for a week? We all know you are full of hot air, but I never dreampt you'd have a weeks worth. __ Golly, that's neat.
KEM,
Do you have a reference for a problem in the French nuclear industry? There is a movement among the citizenry to convert from nuclear power to renewables and during prolonged heat/dry spells some of the reactors have to be throttled or turned off (in the same way that a coal or oil fired plant would) but I am not aware of any particular technical problems.
I am not a fan of the PUREX process and its derivatives that would be used in the currently envisioned GNEP reprocessing schemes. Most of the serious environmental nuclear messes in the western world are associated with this process. This process was developed as part of the plutonium weapons program and is the technology that was in use at Hanford that created that environmental nightmare.
Several posters have decried weapons grade plutonium from this proposed recycling scheme. This is inaccurate. The plutonium extracted from used US commercial nuclear fuel would not be suitable for a nuclear weapon. Weapons grade plutonium has >93% Pu-239. Plutonium from used commmercial fuel would be less than 70% Pu-239. The presence of other isotopes of plutonium would create incredible engineering and design problems for someone trying to make a bomb.
There are no serious technical problems building and operating breeder and/or fast reactors. They are, however, more expensive to build and operate than currently available light water reactors. That is why the only fast reactors currently in operation are government sponsored (there are fast reactors currently in operation in Japan, Russia, India and France).
KEM - BTW, I have been off using wind power for a week. That is why I didn't respond to that silly Wasserman paper.
Bill
Oprah is going on the campaign trail with Obama now. There's millions more votes in his fund. He may be our next president if he doesn't commit a major blunder during the next few months.
Impeachment? Go here NOW and watch and listen from New Hampshire:
http://www.kucinichtv.com/
Perfesser Boosh the nuck-a-ler toy painter from HELL!
Who told this imbecile he could play with da Nukes?
PJD,
I know you're a fan of nuclear. And even if we set aside TCO issues (millenia of costs on security/storage/real estate/monitoring/etc.), potential scale of catastrophic failure, connection to nuclear proliferation, the ethical issues of offloading all of that waste onto future generations, etc.
Even if we were to set aside all of this, you must agree that its most essential flaw remains: the top-down (and therefore removed/non-democratic/political) nature of its management.
Look at other things "they" have brought us: Vietnam, the Iraq War, total dependency on oil, a ponzi economic system gamed by bankers, supporting foreign dictators and druglords, etc. Decisions made in such a non-local, high stakes, autocratic, and totally removed environment cannot possibly yield sensible results.
You're disappointed with sodium in the coolant? I've worked for the civil service for over 20 years myself. You're lucky they didn't use nitroglycerin instead.
Obama is close to winning the nomination and Dennis has good ideas but is far behind. Obama has political heavyweights behind him: the formost advisor to JFK Sorensen and Bresinski the advisor to Carter. Obama is the younger generation like JFK he will ignite the student generation and it is time to let the next generation into the presidency. Obmama is a man for people to get along together. We will be the melting pot again and the country that overcame slavery with civil rights.
bbr-01
There used to be a Breeder here in Eastern Washington at the Hanford site. I was called FFTF or Fast Flux Test Facility. Because it used plutonium (the word seems to poison any rational debate before it ever gets started) it was shut down at the anti-proliferationists demand.
The only problem I have with GNEP is the fact that Bush is in favor of it. The guy has the reverse Midas touch - Everything turns to shit. There must be something wrong with it.
Weapons-grade?
That's WAY different from "reprocessed/spent fuel"...
What's really intended here? Just a sneaky-way to upgrade the several-thousands of US nuke-weapons (as part of the so-called 'safety-program'), then dumping/using the plutonium from those through/by 'spiking' several civilian-reactors [while spending-Large, to install higher-yet kill-levels in all our weaponry -- as an end-run around the already-shirked Non-Proliferation Agreement]?
COMarc wrongs:
> "– note to those who read the corporate BS about Iran. Iran is struggling to get their 'enrichment' up to the 3% range needed for a light-water power reactor. To build a bomb, you need something closer to 100% U-235. The IAEA says they have absolutely no evidence that Iran has ever gone beyond the 3% -5% level needed for a power reactor."
Actually, you can make a bomb using as little as 80% enriched uranium. And actually, most of the separative work is done in getting from natural uranium to low enriched uranium (reactor fuel). And actually, a power reactor's worth of LEU is dozens of tons or about a thousand times the mass of HEU needed to make a bomb.
Therefore, once Iran has the ability to produce LEU for power reactors, and once they have accumulated a reasonable stockpile of LEU, they can very quickly (in as little as three weeks given the planned size of the Natanz fuel enrichment plant) run some of the material through the centrifuges again to make HEU.
I'm not citing numbers here because they depend somewhat on assumptions and you can look into this yourself. But you are dead wrong to imply that enriching to bomb grade HEU is much more difficult than enriching to fuel grade LEU.
The point is, and this is absolutely clear, that having the ability to make LEU in the quantities needed to fuel a power reactor would mean Iran would have the ability to make enough HEU for a bomb within weeks of a decision to do so.
And then, if you really think Iran isn't after the bomb, please explain the Arak heavy water production plant and planned heavy water moderated natural uranium fueled (plutonium production) reactor.
BBR-001, It is my understanding that the French have a full blown major mess on their hands with their nuclear program, and have asked the Russians to help bail them out of it and the Russians want no part of it.
I do wish we would put five hundred billion into start up development of clean energy, Geo-Thermal is perhaps the most cost effective method, and that source of potential 'clean' energy, is right here under our feets. Combine that with Solar/Wind and Tidal energy, and we could close down every coal fired and nuclear plant in the country and pay less for our electricity than we ever have. Nuclear power has always been a loser, except for a few neo-cons and stupid, corrupt politicians.
PJD,
You wouldn't want to be anywhere near a cracked sodium carrying pipe? C'mon, it's just a little reactive. :)
Well, since there are so many highly educated on the subject, who inform Bush the plan is not cost effective and there are many other serious problems, we can be assured he will attempt to push it through.
Anything that is destructive or wasteful is his baby, that's his nature. We have a confirmed nut case in the White House. Well, maybe not, __ maybe there's a profit in there for the family. __ BTW, where does HellsABustin fit into this plan of our current idiot, __ anyone know?
PJD - You mention: "wouldn't that radionucleide containing liquid sodium moderator/coolant be a considerable fire, and therefore containment hazard in the case of a leak?".
I'm sorry didn't you get the memo about never having any leaks? We NUKES_R_US promise to not use the very lowest bidder ($?), outlaw any water within a mile of the power plant (wont work, explosions_R_US is our other name), create triply redundant heat exchanger system that never ever would have to be maintained, or flushed out (not possible in the real world),..., and besides the FACT that no insurance company trusts ANY of the power plant designs EVER (enough to sign on the line) == and gov't has to guarantee the costs if a disaster were to occur == please do TRUST us as we're barely going to make more than a few billion dollars here (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
N O T !
Even the very smallest trace of Sodium blows up when any water vapor of liquid gets near, ever blown up a toilet? OK, it's not as bad as potassium, but my God, it reacts exothermically (producing lots of heat) AND it generates HYDROGEN GAS as well, which is why is almost always explodes around air - unless you suck out all of the air, and all of the water (rain etc) - but that makes for rather difficult maintenance, right?
Namaste
__ __ __ __ We must be the change
__ __ __ __ we wish to see in the world __ Gandhi
bbr-001,
I worked for the TVA back when Pres. Carter shelved their commercial-scale LMFBR - along with 2/3 of their originally planned LWR power plants. One safety misgiving I always had was, wouldn't that radionucleide containing liquid sodium coolant be a considerable fire, and therefore containment hazard in the case of a leak?
Cheney's clandestine 2001 energy policy maximizes corporate welfare for and deregulation of fossil fuels and nuclear.
Just to show they were serious about deregulation, the Bush administration assured that Pakistani A.H. Khan, the rogue global nuke dealer was set free to continue nuclear proliferation.
Reprocessing, loan guarantees and guaranteed profits from operations are a few of many examples of Bush administartion initiated US taxpayer subsidies for nuclear power. No amount of US taxpayer money is too much when it comes to corporate welfare for the nuclear industry.
Yes, Ludd was misguided. It wasn't the looms, it was the capitalists running the looms.
Reprocessing nuclear waste to use in present reactors would be a colossal waste of money and time. Has anyone in these commitees checked progress on the fast reactor at Argonne National Labs? The article mentioned cancelation of a breeder 24 years ago and that no one has yet commercialized one.
The guys at Argonne are close with what sounds like something between lab scale and a pilot plant. If the technology works out, the fast reactors could consume all that waste and then run on a fraction of the DU laying around for years. The waste fuel within a reactor plant would be recycled on-site for the life time of the reactor. The final reactor waste would have no actinides and would be safe within 200 years.
This is essentially free energy, other than construction, operation and maintenance of the plants. The coolant would be liquid sodium, and any failure shuts down the reactor, the rods are metallic and can't get as hot as the ceramic rods now in use...
It seems almost too good to be true.
We need to replace large scale fossil fuel generation ASAP. The only large scale plug and play non-fossil facilities are nuclear. There is a new generation of safe nuclear on the horizon. We need to put our money in a crash program to commercialize what Argonne has piloted (and the French have not quite mastered).
A plan to recycle waste for a second or third pass through conventional reactors is investing in buggy whips.
BTW, DU doesn't have much to do with this. Well, maybe just a little.
DU is a byproduct of the 'enrichment' process. When Uranium comes out of the ground, its typically about 0.6% U-235 and 99.4% U-238. Its the U-235 you need for a chain reaction, so to use in a typical light-water reactor it needs to be 'enriched' up to about 3%-5% U-235.
One way of doing this is to spin it in a centrifuge then try to suck off the gas at the 'light' end of the container. That will typically have a bit more U-235 and a bit less U-238.
So, its the 'enriched' part with more U-235 in it that is needed for reactor fuel. 'Depleted Uranium' is the byproduct of that process that has more U-238 than normal and less 'U-235'.
A fast neutron breeder reactor would use up a small portion of this as you'd put some U-238 in there and some of it will get hit by neutrons and become Pu-239 (that's Plutonium), which can be used in reactors or bombs like U-235.
But that would probably only use a fraction of the DU that's around after 50 years of enrichment, so there'd still be plenty around for the "DU for School Lunch program" :)
-- note to those who read the corporate BS about Iran. Iran is struggling to get their 'enrichment' up to the 3% range needed for a light-water power reactor. To build a bomb, you need something closer to 100% U-235. The IAEA says they have absolutely no evidence that Iran has ever gone beyond the 3% -5% level needed for a power reactor.
Of course, for nations or groups who want a bomb, all this Plutonium that comes out of these reprocessing streams can be used for a bomb without that tricky step of 'enrichment'.
A long-term solution to nuclear waste...
maybe DU for the School Lunch Pogram or paint for toys.
we develop material civilization by trying things. and ludd was mistaken.
I agree with celebrity. Think for yourself, ignore the corporate media brainwash and vote for Kucinich in the primary.
"The report concluded that reprocessing would only divert attention away from a viable long-term solution to nuclear waste . . ."
Which, is, of course the true rationale in the Bush administration. They must have some friends and partners who are invested in seeing a big surge in nuclear power. They know it is going no where without a "waste" disposal solution, so they are bringing this disaster up so they can muddy the waters in the debate.
I put "waste" in quotes because the deadly radioactive long lived isotopes are the actual products of nuclear reactors. The heat that is used to boil water to spin turbines is actually the byproduct, or waste, of the production of plutonium and other radioactive substances.