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Shocked in Death, Shocked in Life: More Than a Taser Story
The world saw a video last week of Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers using a Taser against a Polish man in the Vancouver International Airport in October. The man, Robert Dziekanski, died soon after the attack. In recent days, more details have come out about him. It turns out that the 40-year-old didn't just die after being shocked -- his life was marked by shock as well.
Dziekanski was a young adult in 1989, when Poland began a grand experiment called "shock therapy" for the nation. The promise was that if the communist country accepted a series of brutal economic measures, the reward would be a "normal European country" like France or Germany. The pain would be short, the reward great.
So Poland's government eliminated price controls overnight, slashed subsidies, privatized industries. But for young workers such as Dziekanski, "normal" never arrived. Today, roughly 40% of young Polish workers are unemployed. Dziekanski was among them. He had worked as a typesetter and a miner, but for the last few years, he had been unemployed and had had run-ins with the law.
Like so many Poles of his generation, Dziekanski went looking for work in one of those "normal" countries that Poland was supposed to become but never did. Two million Poles have joined this mass exodus during the last three years alone. Dziekanski's cohorts have gone to work as bartenders in London, doormen in Dublin, plumbers in France. Last month, he chose to follow his mother to British Columbia, Canada, which is in a pre-Olympics construction boom.
"After seven years of waiting, [Dziekanski] arrived to his utopia, Vancouver," said the Polish consul general, Maciej Krych. "Ten hours later, he was dead."
Much of the outrage sparked by the video, which was made by another passenger at the airport, has focused on the controversial use of Tasers, already implicated in 17 deaths in Canada and many more in the United States.
But what happened in Vancouver was about more than a weapon. It was also about an increasingly brutal side of the global economy -- about the reality that many victims of various forms of economic "shock therapy" face at our borders.
Rapid economic transformations like Poland's have created enormous wealth -- in new investment opportunities; currency trading; in leaner, meaner companies able to comb the globe for the cheapest location to manufacture. But from Mexico to China to Poland, they also have created tens of millions of discarded people, the people who lose their jobs when factories close or lose their land when export zones open.
Understandably, many of these people often choose to move: from countryside to city, from country to country. As Dziekanski appeared to be doing, they go in search of that elusive "normal."
But there isn't enough normal to go around, or so we are told. And so, as migrants move, they are often met with other shocks. A treacherous razor fence protecting Spain's North Africa enclaves, or a Taser gun on the U.S.-Mexican border. Canada, which used to be known around the world for its openness to refugees, is militarizing its borders, with lines between immigrant and terrorist blurring fast.
Dziekanski's inhuman treatment at the hands of the Canadian police must be seen in this context. The police were called when Dziekanski, lost and disoriented, began shouting in Polish, at one point throwing a chair. Faced with a foreigner like Dziekanski, who spoke no English, why talk when you can shock? It strikes me that the same brutal, short-cut logic guided Poland's economic transition to capitalism: Why take the gradual route, which required debate and consent, when "shock therapy" promised an instant, if painful, cure?
I realize that I am talking about very different kinds of shocks here, but they do interconnect in a cycle I call "the shock doctrine." First comes the shock of a national crisis, making countries desperate for any cure and willing to sacrifice democracy in the process. In Poland in 1989, that first shock was the sudden end of communism and the economic meltdown. Then comes the economic shock therapy, the undemocratic process pushed through in the window of crisis that jolts an economy into growth but blasts so many people out of the picture.
Then, in far too many cases, there is the third shock, the one that disciplines and deals with the discarded people: the desperate, the migrants, those driven mad by the system.
Each shock has the potential to kill, some more suddenly than others.
Naomi Klein is the author of many books, including her most recent, The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, which will be published in September. Visit Naomi's website at www.naomiklein.org, or to learn more about her new book, visit www.shockdoctrine.com .
© 2007 The Los Angeles Times
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131 Comments so far
Show AllThrowing a chair...for chrissakes now that's preterrorist behavior.. Canadian pigs are humane and even refined and taser "our poor and wretched" to death. If that were JFK airport rest assured amerikan bulls would would have shot the unfortunate man "multiple" times and get commended for doing their duty.
We are all expendable; only capital has rights!
see amy goodman's interview with bill here:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/21/1520253
also check out the interview on that same day's show regarding an expose on the Catholic church's using Chinese sweatshop labor to produce the crucifixes sold at church stores.
Sheesh! No wonder the Republican Neo-cons have gotten the better of us. They seem to have learned that a united front toward a common goal is an effective tactic. 'Democrats', liberals, progressives et.al. have been most effective at clawing themselves to ribbons before even getting on the 'field of battle'. It seems to me that the people of this country who have some kind of reputation in the area of critical thought could do better, but the goal is going to have to start being put ahead of individual ego. Not ALL of us can have the best idea, how about we get behind a GOOD one and accept that as progress.
Veteran 66-68
SIOUXROSE (and ANNEMARIE),
Excellent point when you mention, "perhaps Naomi takes us to its edge, but herself must pause".
IMAMYSELF,
So true to caution us "it's not their job to make us look into the abyss, but ours", as that is empowerment for USans (against THEYans? - ha).
I see her approach as an inoculation of a very nasty (abysmal) virus, that through repetition, may ultimately allow as you say "paradigm-shifting (and thus requires a strong host)", which you also add "to retain a semblance of her own sanity". Perhaps our own sanity?
The irony of SHOCK DOC (MD ?) is that her book is of itself but another example of a continuous assault on our fragmenting connections to others, so perhaps her kindness is in minimizing the truth until we can best digest the small pieces (now mountain size, all together).
Does anyone else see how unbelievably "lucky" we have been provided the "branding" (~ No Logo) of Sept 11 == as 911, == our call and plea for assistance during emergencies (and txt msgs), so that every time we associate one, we are psychically linked to the other? This is too crafty and insidious to be mere coincidence, it is the essential incontrovertible signature of PSYOPS. For example, consider how we might think of it, if it had occurred on April's Fool day?
I see in this thread - the heads shaking in disbelief of NAOMI's seemingly disconnect - but she could hardly be more obvious given the entire context of all she says - perhaps it was just the knowing nod to the power structure of the publishers and news media - that 'if I do this, we can all agree not to talk about the twin giraffes, in the room (and a hippopotamus,, with a #7 on it)'?
When you mention that "WE are there", I agree (now at the "the mercy of said government"), but would also plea, empower, inspire, and hope that we can culturally stabilize, re-connect, and thereby move forward by literally shaking off the SHOCK.
Maybe someone lurking, could even create their screen name as SHOCK_Dr, and dispense the cure for our ills?
Namaste
cromerovich says: Harper is a cunning opportunist and would definitely pursue the Jewish voting base at the expense of Muslims or Lebanese or of remaining neutral. Although 3 out of 4 Lebanese are Muslim I suspect there are a higher percentage of Christian Lebanese in Canada. I think on balance there is reason to suspect Harper's ideological bias playing a strong role here, plus his total lack of empathy.
I was trying to skate around that a bit. CTV said that Harper was repeating verbatum what Bush and Condi said before him. There were Jews who were protesting what Israel did to the Palestinians. The other story besides the death of Kruedener was the controversies concerning getting Canadian Palestinians out of the country before the conflict started. The whole thing was a mess:
Seems that there was a road that people had to cross to get to the ports to get out of the country. Seems that one could get shot and killed crossing this road. Those who braved the road and made it to the ports had a situation where there was no food or bathrooms and if they went out of line, they would not get on the ship out of there - and a few nasty things like that.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast-crisis/canada-reacts.html
There is a reason why media mogul Izzy Aspers sons are Conservative - despite the fact that their father was a life long Liberal - even talking about running again for the party the night he died. Izzy Asper is behind the Human Rights Museum in Canada - which is to tell our history "warts and all" but I think that war crimes against Lebanon and Palestine will be designated to the broom closet. When Lord Conrad Black sold off his Canadian holdings (at the time he renounced his Canadian citizenship), he sold them to the Aspers. Izzy seemed to think that any country named after himself could do no wrong.
Then there is Avi Lewis. I have seen Avi tell guests that they could come up with better arguments before or even come up for a few for them if he figures they are in trouble. However, I have never ever ever seen him get angry at a guest before (town hall):
http://www.cbc.ca/bigpicture/house.html
Avi is Naomi Klein's husband.
Got to go son has appointment. Rest later.
HYBRIDOMA2001,
You've reminded me of the subtle tricks used in "Chicago of blood', to aid the finessing and passage of animals (dutiful domesticated USans) indubitably to their doom, but with luckless abandon.
You state that: "It's symbolic, in a way, of what the American Dream has become."
More so than you may already know.
Are any of you readers familiar with Temple Grandin's "Thinking in Pictures"? If not, please be wonderfully surprised and rewarding by going here
Beyond the exceptionally transforming and inspirational story of an autistic genius surviving and thriving, and the gifts of her disability (which in part I share) - which need be read by all - you will find a bizarre and unexpected story of the stockyards (what?).
Yes, the stockyards of a now more humanely guided ramp design, that Temple visualized as how to eliminate the foreknowledge of pending death. Immensely successful (and profitable to the owners), her signature design has been incorporated into almost half of all stockyards.
My reason for bringing this forward to discuss is the insidiously clever design is so simple, as to just add a curving wall, so that the herd cannot see the deaths of those ahead of them, which would otherwise create hormone'ically tainted product (adrenaline surging, yucking with the meat's goodness). OK, this is a stretch from a vegetarian's perspective, but diminished customer value and loss of profit is not.
MOOOOOO'ing loudly, some of us in the herd can see the agents-of-death right there before us clearly, but then the media circus installs the curved wall (effects) to deflect our cries and sight from others, so that "progress" (death, war) can continue unimpeded.
Didn't Chicago have another famous cow story of evidently significant note: the great Chicago Fire (1871) was (previously) blamed on a cow thought to have kicked over a lantern in Mrs. O'Leary's barn. Perhaps that wonderfully brilliant and committed cow, was but attempting the burn those stockyards to the ground?
Shouldn't we first tear down our own curved walls, raise the torch high, and allow others to see for themselves what LIES before USans?
Namaste
SiouxRose, thank you and especially for suggesting what might be Klein's reason for not going further, a legit fear of entering into the abyss. It's true, it can cause a mind paradigm shift; even a disturbing split. This is a possibility that I hadn't considered. Naturally, I have no way of knowing if this is her real reason or if there is some other motivation. That being said, it/your suggestion makes good food for thought and I'll keep it in mind. Much appreciated.
I also feel that it is up to each of us to decide whether or not we venture into deeper waters. You can lead someone to water, you cannot make them think. [sic] In fact this sentiment/approach can apply to most things in life.
Nspire, thanks for Mooing. I'm mooing too. Can you hear me? ;) Thanks also for linking to that CBC clip with Avi Lewis (Klein's husband). I've long regarded Lewis as a superb host and a stellar moderator, and this clip only reinforces my impression of him. I'd highly recommend this particular video to all readers here. It's funny too, early on in that CBC 'town-hall' discussion, there was one guy whom Lewis referred to as "the peace maker", Jewish man, can't recall his name right now, sorry. Point is, he made a brilliant, salient point and it was something about which I was thinking before I began to view the clip. Paraphrasing him (badly I'm afraid): we ALL need to get to the root of this Palestinian/Israeli problem. We need to get to the root of our individual (and therefore also our collective) identities. We ALL need to start re-cognizing, i-dentifying our-selves for what we are first and foremost: human beings (or human animals if you prefer). Realize that at our essence, we are ALL the same, and that we are all in this leaky boat together.
This is a truly radical way of thinking. Radical means to get to the root. Look it up if you doubt me.
Some will dismiss what I'm saying as vapour or vacuous, or as a fanciful, airy-fairy way of thinking. It isn't. It is a truth, a fact of life that we for ludicrously obstinate reasons (ego-based) overlook time and aeon again, at our peril. I'm not exaggerating.
Sages have been telling us the same for ages. And there are as many messages (and methods) as there are messengers.
Solutions are right in front of us. The answers are simple. And they are clear. Implementing the solutions will certainly take some time because we've taken a lot of time to complicate matters. And it seems to take longer to build or rebuild than it takes to destroy. Bombs and bullets are horribly efficient, aren't they. And efficiency is horribly overrated. However I've found that the penalties for mocking the truth or ignoring reality are that truth will, in turn, mock you and reality will in turn ignore you. I know that sounds preposterous. Oh well...
There is not a single human living or dead who was/is first a Jew, Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Buddhist, or Male, Female, or American, Asian, African, etc. and THEN a human being. We are all human beings first and foremost, and all equal in this respect. The rest of our i-dentity is only mere layers upon this foundation. Heck, Aristotle put it succinctly, he described it thusly: as "accidents of birth". Yet there are still many, too many, far and wide who embrace a tragic and false i-dentity. Mooooo!
C'est la vie. No matter how little or how far we've come or gone, we've still got much, much further to go. I swear that until we become radical, get to the root, particulary the root of our i-dentity we aren't going to progress an iota. Moo!
Thanks to those who read this and find it worthwhile. Apologies to those who find it a yawn.
Namaste. Namaste means peace, right?
Oops. Was Vaudree who provided that link to Lewis at the CBC. Thanks Vaudree.
Thanks nspire for the other link.
I'm a participant in what the RCMP boss is referring to as "a rush to judgement" on the Vancouver Airport disgrace.
I've already written to Ottawa.
Yes, I'll go with what I saw, underscored by what I've been yammering about on Common Dreams from the start... CHUMPIFICATION.
It has always been with us, this strutting and flexing by chumpy uniformed bullies and their insistence that we'd all be lost to Darkness without their paranoid heroics, but it's many times worse in recent years.
You can get a good sense of chumpification by observing parking-ticket "enforcers" in any city these days.
These clowns would love Tasers and handcuffs.
I saw one in our local donut shop with handcuffs through his epaulettes.
(what's goin' on...a high-risk takedown over by the boston creams.... you moron?)
Overkill?
No, no. Everything has changed since 9-11, that's the stock answer.
If these Vancouver bozos weren't in police uniform they'd be locked up without bail pending charges of criminal assault causing death.
But no, they've been "re-assigned".
Wouldn't it be a good thing as you drive into Vancouver to see AM radio signs offering information on where these thugs are working?
"For your own safety, please avoid the area....."
Honestly the climate in Jersey is so frightened stiff conformist, not one person in a thousand will even display an anti-war bumper sticker on their car as they drive to their job for fear of the same treatment as this poor Polish guy. People are being turned into frightened zombies by the police. It's darn contagious too.
You know that there is a Polish documentary crew in Canada right now planning to do a documentary on Robert Dziekanski's death. They say that they harbour no ill will against Canada :rolleyes . What are the chances that the doc will be shown on the CBC.
AnnaMarie: Avi had three shows on CBC - "Counterspin" (which he quit to do the film with his wife), a few test episodes of "Big Picture" and "On the Map." I am a fan of Avi. The best of the BP docs is "The Human Behaviour Experiments" with "The Root 0f All Evil?" being the funniest. Son kicking me off so will find answer tomorrow. Note that what you consider "radical" I consider logical, common sense and, eventually (if we get enough decent human beings in places of power), common place.
pacplyer says: Taser = torture. If it's used as a method of torture at gitmo on the nads
There are very few things done to the nads that a male would not consider to be torture. In many cases (ie Arar's), the torturer doing the whipping pretended to accidentally hit those areas rather than target them.
andrewr says: Canada STILL prides itself on being better the native Americans than the USA was and yet it STILL breaks agreements with them, evdn today (The Kelowna Accord worth $5 billion).
You know how easy it is for Canada to feel good about themselves by comparing themselves to the States. We can't do that at the Commonwealth Summit in Uganda where, with Australia not showing up (and the US not in it) we are the sole assholes in the castle.
Martin negotiated the Kenowna Accord and Harper scrapped it - Phil Fontaine was not to pleased about that I tell you! Nor was Phil Fontaine too pleased when Harper would not support the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (as jmacneil mentions), though he was pleased that it passed any way. Harper did earn some brownie points for settling the Residential School abuse claims - but not much.
If you look closely at Harper's latest throne speech (put "throne" in a CTV search and you will find both video and transcript) Harper is proposing private (rather than tribe) ownership of Native lands - which basically means that each resident would have property until they fall behind on their land taxes because there are no jobs up there. The police are no better - there is no excuse for what happened to Neil Stonechild.
From AFN: "Assembly of First Nations National Chief Phil Fontaine seeks support and assurances from the Federal Government on proposed changes to Bill C-21"
http://www.afn.ca/article.asp?id=3941
Siouxrose says: If politics comes up, I mention the 911 inside job aspect and they turn pale.
Personally, I think that there was more direct culpability with Katrina because everyone knew it was inevitable if the levee wasn't fixed and the wealthier areas of New Orleans remained dry.
Bush gained office on January 20, 2001 - eight months before 9-11. Clinton did tell Bush to pay attention to the file, but they were all more interested in digging up dirt about Saddam Hussain than about taking Clinton's advice. I think that part of it was a mindset that wars are something that happens elsewhere rather than on American soil. It was more direlegation (sp?) of duty rather than something pre-planned. Though Bush was able to use his own incompetence to his advantage after the fact.
If it had been an inside job, the Bush administration would not have been stupid enough to have Bush's father attending a meeting with Bin Laden's brother the morning it happened. They would have also insured that Bin Laden family members were out of the country before it happened. For Bush to pull off the transformation from zero to hero, these were embarrassing details that required quite a bit of damage control.
Anyone have a list of the songs that were banned on radio right after 9-11? You can tell that the list was done on the fly! There are songs they omitted. Ok, this point is weak, but no one has addressed why Papa Bush would be attending the same meeting the morning of 9-11.
The other thing is that Naomi Klein researched her points and presumably figures that everything in there she can back up. Even if she could dismiss what happened at the Carlyle group meeting and thought it was an inside job, she can't back it up, so she will leave it out. That way the book doesn't come back to bite her after.
BTW - You know why Canadians don't say "911" - it is because there was a different "911" controversy - known as the 911 Murders - which occurred on February 16, 2000 (only the Rick Boguski link works). The doors are not too strong on slum housing - if someone really wants to get in there is not much you can do to stop them:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/aboriginals/winnipeg911.html
nspire, Temple Grandin figured out a more humane way to kill cows. While some of those things may ease the suffering of those in pallative care, let no one think of a more humane form of genocide or ethnic cleansing! And speaking of "humane" - the US considers lethal injection a more "humane" form of corporal punishment than other formers of corporal punishment. But does that make corporal punishment humane?
Ok that is the fever and amoxicilian talking.
HI VAUDRE,
Be healthy and receive our blessings to regain your vitality.
You mention that: "If it had been an inside job, the Bush administration would not have been stupid enough to have Bush's father attending a meeting with Bin Laden's brother the morning it happened. They would have also insured that Bin Laden family members were out of the country before it happened."
I doubt you would have used this argument, if you'd seen "Fahrenheit 911", which explains how the 'house d Saud' had more than a dozen members flown out of the USA that day. What is significant about this is that the FAA had already shut down all of our airspace and grounded all commercial and private flights in USA.
As a Physicist and Engineer, the "investigation" was a white wash and so full of holes that several planes loaded with real people could fly through "it", with room to spare.
Consider that the single TWA crash off Massachusetts spent ~ $ 400 million, for 270 deaths === while the net investigation for 4 airplanes killing ~3000 people was reluctantly increased from initial 8 million to something under 20. The gov't shills had/have no reason at all to disclose any facts of the actual crashes, and building collapses (3 for 2 airplanes ?), and private investigations since 911, have uncovered (and spent) more.
We're branded as "conspiracy nuts" (all the grieving relatives and concerned citizens for resolving real causes), and preemptively dismissed as having no merit for ALL the open issues (holes that I mentioned) when stacked up against the LITE version official investigative reports. If you're surprised to learn that the govt has been LIE'ing about almost everything else, remember that this is the "hole-y grail" of all lies, and the linch pin to throttle our once democracy further into corpocrapism and despotism.
Remember, this is the same govt spending some $ 2000 million every day on warmongering in the Mideast, so potentially spending 2 hours worth of that ($ 183 million), does seem justified to me (as compared to ~12 min worth actually spent). One doesn't even get what one pays for anymore.
I believe that each of our living rooms across the country, now contain those unmentionable two giraffes and hipo (see post of 23rd at 12:36 pm), and we've mostly agreed not to feverishly talk about it anymore. It's a big mistake not to close this gapping hole-y wound, drain the septic (infectious) fluids, cleanse the associated areas, and commence with the 6-yr delayed healing process (in open air).
We'll need much more amoxicilian than you're likely taking to instantiate the healing of this wounded country.
Namaste
Sorry, everyone, but if I had an email address, I'd send this message in a more private form, so this is another "I had to scroll down to the end to post a comment immediately" situation.
Siouxrose,
"Nature abhors a straight line"
Oh my gosh, before I thought we were mildly kindred spirits albeit taking different roads less traveled, but that quote sent me skyward. Hundertwasser, Kent, Brown, and the ecology teacher in college who inspired me to choose a major and become a teacher...is the universe trying to tell me to be a biogeographer? Are you casting spells, Siouxrose? I smell conspiracy. Or maybe that's just almonds? I made chocolate mole tonight, so my nose really can't be sure.
Thank you for again enlightening me as to your position. :D
And we keep looking up to Bushite-Mini-Me-run Canada . . . why again?
Thanks for wishing me well. At $13.58 for a bottle of 30 best to stay healthy!
nspire says: I doubt you would have used this argument, if you'd seen "Fahrenheit 911″, which explains how the 'house d Saud' had more than a dozen members flown out of the USA that day. What is significant about this is that the FAA had already shut down all of our airspace and grounded all commercial and private flights in USA.
You want to know how many times the CBC has aired F-911 or Bowling! They haven't aired Sicko yet, though.
I am using this argument precisely for that reason. If it was preplanned, wouldn't the Bin Ladens have been whisked away BEFORE it happened rather than RIGHT AFTER it happened. Also, Bush was not looking for dirt on Saudi Arabians because he had no interest in starting a war with Saudi Arabia (he - er - Cheney still doesn't!). Thus, he ignored the warnings prior to 9-11 and continued to down play Saudi Arabia's role in the event afterwards. And he was somewhat successful!
How many of your friends who get their information from FOX NEWS know that the 9-11 terrorists were mainly from Saudi Arabia and that none of them came from Canada or Iraq?
And remember that in the hours that followed 9-11 that Bush was trying very hard to link the attack to Saddam Hussain while the CBC was showing a documentary which contained school boy pictures of Osama Bin Laden. This was the only time that Osama making his presence known hurt Bush because it forced him to make a detour to Afghanistan - a war which is resulting in many Canadian deaths.
We know that, except for getting the Bin Ladens out of the country before they could be questioned and before anyone realised that they were there, that NORAD closed the American airspace to traffic. Where do you think many of the flights from overseas heading to the US landed!
Wikipedia says: Gander International Airport, which was the first North American airport on the trans-Atlantic route, took in 39 wide-body aircraft, mostly heading for U.S. destinations. The total number of passengers and crew accommodated at Gander was about 6,600. The total population of Gander is fewer than 10,000 people
Another major port, besides Gander NL was Halifax Nova Scotia, but Halifax has a fondness for helping American which goes back to the help they received from Boston following the Halifax explosion of 1917.
nspire says: The gov't shills had/have no reason at all to disclose any facts of the actual crashes, and building collapses (3 for 2 airplanes ?), and private investigations since 911, have uncovered (and spent) more.
Sure they did. Presidents always did better when external threats took the focus off of the American economy and domestic affairs. Remember Regan and his Cold War! If the Russians were so dangerous, why was Canada engaged in an 8 game hockey series with them - and why were Canadian hockey fans so eager to go to Russia to cheer on our team! Regan did not win the Cold war - Paul Henderson did during final moments of game 8.
Seriously, Russia was bluffing for the most part with how powerful they were militarily wise. Back to point, American Presidents do best when they have dangerous external enemies they need to protect their citizens from. The more frightening they can make these external enemies seem, the easier it is for them to convince the American people to fall into line with Political Correctness. Thus, it was in their best interest to play it up as much as possible.
While Air Farce is the most right wing of the Canadian comedies, they also tend to keep their videos on line the longest. The first time that they joked about Bush wanting to start a war in Iraq was Friday, February 23, 2001 - which was a bit before 9-11. They were interested in very little else at the time:
http://www.airfarce.com/video/010223.html
nspire says: We're branded as "conspiracy nuts" (all the grieving relatives and concerned citizens for resolving real causes),
There are a lot of holes but most of them can be explain with Cheney (or any of the companies he is associated with) having no vested interests in starting trouble with Saudi Arabia. Concede a point that it is difficult to distinguish between a cover up after the fact (what I figured happened) and pre planning (what you figure happens). If in doubt, one picks the former - especially if one figures one's book controvercial enough.
That said, Bush could have causes further damage to the buildings before pictures were taken to make the attack look worse than it was. Did anyone die from the bombing of the Pentagon? I forget.
The two incidents that tend to be talked of North of the 49th parallel are the two planes that flew into the WTC and the plane that crashed into the field. Note the wording:
Fifth Estate says: The fifth estate found NO credible evidence in the public domain to prove the U.S. government had any specific advance knowledge of exactly what would happen on September 11, 2001. / And many conspiracy theories seem like a waste of time. They depend on questionable characters like Mike Vreeland or involve wild allegations like those of Thierry Meyssan. / But many of these theories are based, at least in part, on legitimate questions that have remained unanswered since September 11th.
The Fifth Estate does not deny that the Bush administration had prior information of the threat - only that they had prior information concerning the exact date of the planned attack.
The Fifth Estate does get things wrong, but not very often.
corvo, did you hear that Harper and Bush just lost a powerful friend in Australia? Kevin Rudd replaced the John Howard as Prime Minister . Kevin Rudd is for Kyoto and against the war in Iraq. And the icing on the cake - John Howard may lose his seat!
With Howard gone and Bush leaving office soon, Harper is going to find himself the odd man out.
Odd that you would refer to Harper as a mini-me since we referred to Bush as "King George's Mini-Me." Sadly 22 Minutes doesn't keep their stuff on line that long.
thewonderingyou, feel free to share any mention of chocolate! One exception - even I draw the line at chocolate flavoured chili - sadly I'm a minority.
RE Air Farce: It is a record of events leading up to the war in Iraq.
VAUDREE,
Consider that there are far more dangers then you state, regarding just the Saud: "There are a lot of holes but most of them can be explain with Cheney (or any of the companies he is associated with) having no vested interests in starting trouble with Saudi Arabia."
The subject matter of this thread is (in part) about how the gov't has used (& will) horrendous shocks as tools to obtain specific monetary and power based gains, forwarding their NWO and global interests.
Yes, the Saudi Arabian connection is an inviting issue, but not the most likely reason (if we assume the despicable worse case origination, not reaction to). This is to me, about illegitimately creating a new context for massive social change, that at other times (w/o shocks) wouldn't be allowed or condoned by even the most apathetic of populations.
Loss of Habeas Corpus (an 800 some year old foundation of Democracy), illegal wiretapping, illegal warmongering, illegal profiteering, . . . are all about stealing Americans blind of most of what was left of a participatory democracy.
When you state that "The fifth estate found NO credible evidence in the public domain to prove the U.S. government had any specific advance knowledge of exactly what would happen on September 11, 2001."
I respond that Condi Rice has publicly (almost) acknowledged (wouldn't read aloud the title of disclosed intelligence briefing) by holding that piece of paper, that directly debunked the witless 'we had no idea of such things (planes into buildings)' -- when that was almost EXACTLY the title of the memo she was holding onto during the hearing, from months before.
Namaste
NSPIRE: When I was driving in these enchanting Florida Keys yesterday I had this thought about "Namaste," before you posted the explanation. Trekking in Nepal a few years ago, I loved meeting strangers and doing that "namaste" bow to them, as they reciprocated. I wondered if life in the US would change if we truly BLESSED everyone we met... made it a point, an exercise, to PRACTICE blessing others, strangers, all through our day. Could that help shift critical mass from this continent of abject fear to one where LOVE has a chance to begin doing what love does best: heal this wounded planet?
THE WONDERING YOU: I can't tell if you're mocking me, so I'll humor you. Nature, MOTHER nature that is, abhors a straight line, with the exception of the male erection. Better analysis, bro?
So many beautiful posts---deepening our understanding and I believe our compassion. ANNEMARIE---I tried to respond to your frustration a couple of times, many posts above, and the function kept "eating" it. After two attempts on two separate occasions, I decided the Universe was trying to tell me something. Clearly, SIOUXROSE, NSPIRE, and several other beautiful submitters went WAY beyond my intended message.
I thank you all for the exquisite way this thread has been woven/expanded. And NSPIRE---loved your expansion of Namaste. I do believe if this were to become our cultural greeting, spoken with heart(full) understanding, a mighty transformation would take place, and PEACE, TRUTH, COMPASSION would break out everywhere.
AYMON-----Where are you? What do you think? Is it too "wannbe" an aspiration? Would it feel like desecration to other cultures?, not unlike our own Native Americans who sometimes resented our wannabe white folks playing at "Indian", or our "noble savage" stereotypes.
SIOUXROSE,
Yes I also believe that the conscious and often use of a blessing, especially when meeting someone for the first time, could well tip the scales.
If only people sneezed more often
We ARE who we think and chose to perceive ourselves to be, recreating ourselves in every thought and action of BEING. I'm sure you've heard the joke about the 'the guy who stopped to think' and 'forgot to start up again'? Well let me say, that would be no normal dude, more likely a Sat Baba.
Life happens at let us say (guess) 5% of what really is going on, on this plane of existence, while the other 95% is the intentional packaging, our interpretation, and attachments to past and future (possible) events. If we were to have even a small fraction of people practicing "Namaste", I believe that we'd recreate similar feelings to those you had along that Himalayan slope.
I like the conceptualization that much of our minds are semi-automatic, but just as is true for fire, our minds make much far better slaves than masters. When we feed the 'pig' as it were, of thinking thinking ..., with God filled images and thoughts we co-create that reality, we are blessed with the MIND AS SLAVE (to good thought and intention).
But, the flip side ( MIND AS MASTER ) is life as a 'reality show', where the disparate 'pig mentality' IS starving for input, and will clamp down on whatever is filtering in and/or floating by, which in this messy massive media culture is conditioning propaganda, ridiculous illogic, T & A, Brittanies latest thing, and/or road rage . . .
The framework fits well into your suggestion of intensifying each of our visualizations of the positive and good in all people, as well as in ourselves. As you indubitably already know, the greatest love is to love oneself (as w/o that, there really is little if no compassion or external world of worth).
Another quick story that you may enjoy. When I was learning in a group setting, this woman was so immersed in her self-imposed limitations, and was chanting that "it is so hard, it is so hard, ...". One of the trainers arrived on the scene and attempted to connect with her, by almost yelling to her "there is only one thing in life that has to be hard to be good, and this is not it."
Namaste
P.S. (I'm adding the mudra - hands together motion - from now on, based on your post)
The solution is simple. There needs to be a clear cut policy on exactly when and how tasers are to be used.
NSPIRE: We are on the same cosmic page. I love the fact that some are bringing a spiritual dimension into this forum. CD definitely attracts a wide variety of informed and illumined thinkers. Who's to say or know exactly how the "pebbles" our discussions send flying may create better ripple effects?
SIOUXROSE: In a previous life, I was a king of interferometry.
Your comments are intuitively a 14 Billion lightyear long bullseye, as Very Long Baseline Interferometry, is ALL of the QUASARS bouncing their LIGHT across the Earth, and amplifying the weakest ripple's whisper.
Namaste
Nice shooting
NSPIRE
Condi's memo proves that they knew there was a threat but did nothing specifically to prevent it from happening. However, the Clinton administration filled the Bush administration in on the major threats to US security from around the world - and the Saudi Threat was one of them.
NOTHING in the memo indicates that they knew there was an attack planned for September of that year - nor was there anything in the memo (or the rest of the testimony that I know of) which indicates that the Bush administration was in on the planning. All the memo states is that there was a threat of an attack that they ignored.
WHY did they ignore it? It could be because they wanted it to happen (which would have gained more credibility if they had been in office longer). It could be because Cheney was fixated on going to war with Iraq (for business interests) and had no interest in giving the file a close read. It could be Bush's loyalty to old friends cropping up - no matter what Osama was up to, the rest of the family had always been pretty decent to Bush to the point of funding his businesses.
nspire says: This is to me, about illegitimately creating a new context for massive social change, that at other times (w/o shocks) wouldn't be allowed or condoned by even the most apathetic of populations.
Naomi Klein speaks both of creating contexts and of making use of contexts which occur.
Cheney's immediate reaction in the hours after 9/11 was to say that Saddam Hussain was the mastermind of the attacks and, when that failed, to claim that the secular Hussain and the overtly religious Osama Bin Laden were best friends (so Hussain was a finacial supporter of Bin Laden's work). That strategy counted on getting the types of Oppression which existed under Hussain mixed up in people's mind with the types of Oppression which existed in Afghanistan. The mixing up was made easier by the human tendency to presume that if a person is engaged in one type of oppression (jailing those who disagree with you) that they are engaged in other types of oppression as well (making women wear Burkas).
Cheney's immediate reaction indicates that he was still fixated on Iraq. Cheney was not thinking "what do we need to do to protect Americans" but "how do I fulfill my agenda" - the point is that Cheney did not see looking into Bin Laden's activities as furthering his own goals so ignored the warning signs.
nspire says: Loss of Habeas Corpus (an 800 some year old foundation of Democracy), illegal wiretapping, illegal warmongering, illegal profiteering, . . . are all about stealing Americans blind of most of what was left of a participatory democracy.
Yes, these things were part of Cheney's agenda and had been for years before King George's mini-me took office. Cheney was looking for an excuse to implement this stuff, but did not expect it to come as soon as it did or in the form that it did. I think that we are both in agreement with the concept that the Patriot Act was ready to go before 9-11 because it represented a wish list. And we can all guess that the UK and Canada would not have signed onto it unless Bush tied security to trade - especially since Bush has been pulling the same bushit argument since then for other things.
The Unauthorised Biography of Dick Cheney
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/dickcheney/vice.html
You want to know how long America has been trying to talk Canada into some version of Star Wars! They came very close to pushing that through, and, probably while we were fighting that got other things through.
Continue this later, possibly when we meet again. Just decided to switch from newspaper to phlegm bowl.
Remember my argument with Jacob Freeze that he was referring to the guy in Chilliwack? Well we finally know the name of the guy who was pepper sprayed, hit with a baton and tasered in Chilliwack - Robert Knipstrom. You do know why we now know his name!
In Canada, we don't usually release the names of the dying.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071124/custody_death_071124/20071124/
Robert Dziekanski was the guy who died at the BC airport after arriving from Poland. Ironic, considering my arguments with Jacob Freeze that both men share the same first name.
VAUDRE: Good responses, but they (re-thuglicans & democraps) wore off my usual skeptical button decades ago.
It's kind of a moot point though, and we agree that we disagree herein.
Hopefully it (our similar, but different viewpoint) empowers us both, to take appropriate actions, like continuing to read CD, and inspire others to ACT (which I see as a given). Best of wishes with your approach, as I know my Dad would have almost dis-owned me to hear what comes out of my mouth now days . . . and he was a pacifist prior to WWII (and his switch over to building the nukes for Japan).
BTW, as I'm (almost) certain you would agree, the bald-faced lie to the American people that the gov't had never heard of any such idea of flying planes into buildings - was just propaganda to attempt to recover from their seriously flawed "intelligence failure" 'barf all over their shirts' mess, right?
Have you heard the one about the 3(death)star General, who asserted under oath (to that Georgian Rep, who they then systematically ousted) that our gov't's state-of-the-art (best in the solar system) intercept effectiveness was actually significantly made more effective, dangerous, responsive, and with keen perceptual clarity in the face of any threat === while running three different war games at the same time as while 911 was occuring ???? How [unbelievably ignorant]^google power are WE ????
The facts, Sir, are clear that nothing even close to letting 4 airplanes loose in out skys has ever occurred before. Have you forgotten the multi-trillion dollar -- intensely accurate and thoroughly deadly -- defense system that protected us from the USSR "menace" for decades?
I guess it was those all of those made-in-China fusses, ALL blowing at the same time in massively redundant systems over dozens of states, AND no body could find the light switch, and the shrub wasn't available to guide the military as he was in elementary school learning how to read and write? Ever read about CENCOM, and the Pentagon's joint chief of staff, I guess all of those folks were on vacation during those exercises, and left the unqualified most least likely able teen agers in charge of our entire countries defense?
OOOPPPPS, sorry we completely failed to do our jobs, and then no one was fired for incompetence? Well, I aint no military man, but the ONLY way that could ever happen is IF THEY WERE FOLLOWING DIRECT ORDERS.
"Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?"
Namaste
__ __ __ __ We must be the change
__ __ __ __ we wish to see in the world __ Gandhi
NSPIRE,
I think that we can both agree that the Repug wish list that was the Patriot Act way before 9-11 happened and that they used the shock of 9-11 to ram it through. Unlike the Congresspersons of the United States, the MPs of Canada actually read the document and debated it.
Ever wonder what our representatives were talking about in the aftermath of 9-11?
Monday, September 17, 2001 (scroll down to bottom)
Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Our grief and anger must not in any way lead us to a diminution of the most fundamental and most important civil liberties and human rights. Those who flee from terror themselves tragically must not be victimized now by the call from some, including those in the official opposition, to implement draconian new measures on immigration or refugee policy. As Tom Berger has said "our freedoms are fragile indeed".
It is precisely at times such as this, when we respond in anguish and deep grief, when we must be most careful. We have heard the parallel of Pearl Harbor. Let us never forget what followed Pearl Harbour: the internment of Canadians and Americans of Japanese origin and the use of the ultimate outrage, the atomic bomb.
In 1970, in response to terrorist groups, the War Measures Act was used, which represented a powerful threat to civil liberties with over 300 Quebecers arrested and imprisoned.
We must be particularly vigilant at this time not to allow in any way our most basic and fundamental rights and freedoms to be trampled on in the name of the fight for security or against terrorism.
However, the most important issue I want to address in the few minutes that remain to me is the question of Canada's response, the government's response, to a possible request by the United States or NATO for military action. We have heard what I think are deeply troubling words from the solicitor general and the foreign affairs minister today during question period. I was pleased with the tone that the Prime Minister set in his comments today, but disturbed by the suggestions of some of his colleagues that we are indeed prepared to walk every step of the way with the United States. I believe that is what the solicitor general said. I do not believe that Canadians are prepared to give our government that kind of carte blanche. ...
Mr. Svend Robinson: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his intervention. Perhaps the best response to his comments is to quote from the statement made by Project Ploughshares, which said:
"Crimes against humanity cannot be redressed through actions which themselves circumvent the law and due process; nor is it possible for states or communities to individually build fortified islands of safety based on their own power or unilateral actions."
I think we have to be particularly vigilant in the coming days to speak to our friends and allies in the United States with respect to their response. I was troubled and alarmed when George Bush suggested that "We will rid the world of evil doers" as part of this mission of response, because when we look at those who have been defined as the evil doers historically by the United States, whether it was in Chile, where the tragic irony is that September 11 is also the anniversary date of the overthrow of the democratically elected Allende government there, whether it is the devastation and the genocidal impact of sanctions on the people of Iraq, whether it is the targeting of Cuba as a terrorist state by the United States, I think all of us have to be particularly vigilant to ensure that what guides us in our response is the quest for justice and not the quest for retribution and revenge.
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/chambersittings.aspx?Key=2001&View=H&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=37&Ses=1
nspire says: I'm (almost) certain you would agree, the bald-faced lie to the American people that the gov't had never heard of any such idea of flying planes into buildings - was just propaganda to attempt to recover from their seriously flawed "intelligence failure" 'barf all over their shirts' mess, right?
I think that there had been hijackings and bombs in airplaines prior to 9-11. Don't think I heard much of the use of aircraft as a weapon since WWII and those where single passenger Japanese planes which only had enough fuel to travel one way. You have to admit that 9-11 was well researched, well planned, but employed the most minimalist weapontry. The hijackers did not sneak a bomb onto the plane or carry guns - all they carried were box cutters (as my son made a point of pointing out when he got an inappropriate stocking stuffer that year).
Why box cutters? Because it was the most lethal weapon that, even if the airline security people caught you with, they would probably just let it slip. There were probably a few test runs first to see what would and would not be allowed onto a plane. Yes, when told that there were suspicious people taking piloting lessons and wanting to learn how to fly (rather than land), it should have been looked into. Yes, when given a document that Bin Laden looked like he was planning an attack in the US, it should have been looked into more carefully (why it wasn't you say is because the US administration was in on it and I say because Cheney considers protecting Americans a very low priority - especially if it involves people who have been good to Haliburton). Yes, like CSIS and the RCMP with Air India, the CIA and FBI should have been more willing to share information.
*My son had a spoof website called Alt130 Enterprises and people kept sending him freebies because they mistook it for a real company. I thought it would help with the unwrapping.
nspire imitating idiotic general says: The facts, Sir, are clear that nothing even close to letting 4 airplanes loose in out skys has ever occurred before.
How often were domestic planes full of innocent passengers used for this purpose? And why were such planes used in this case? The US had faced a few peaceful years where they did not really have an external enemy to whip people into a frenzie with. Prior to 9-11 most people would have found the US government shooting down a plane full of innocent people repugnant, but afterwards … well, American standards seem to have changed.
Think of how the whole thing could have fallen apart so easily since it all depended on fake documents and simultaneous attacks. Concede that, after the second plane hit the WTO, the US military should have been in full force
Son says: the bush administration may be evil, but it isn't bright enough to keep something like that under wraps / the closest to that that i could possibly see is that they may have allowed it to happen / but my money is on incompetence / to be fair, the soviets never actually sent missiles over
nspire says: OOOPPPPS, sorry we completely failed to do our jobs, and then no one was fired for incompetence? Well, I aint no military man, but the ONLY way that could ever happen is IF THEY WERE FOLLOWING DIRECT ORDERS.
Yes, but whose orders? And what orders? Remember that Cheney wanted to attack Iraq with all of his being and was trying to find a good excuse to do so. Cheney just wasn't interested in dirt elsewhere and, I think that we can both agree that it was Cheney, rather than Bush, who was really running things.
There is some indication, as the questioning of Condi reveals, that the CIA and the FBI wanted Cheney (or Rumpfelt) to take some things more seriously. It would be out of character for Cheney to engage (or refuse to engage) in any action unless he saw personal gain. Cheney probably did engage in intentional ignorance. However, Cheney probably did so because he saw it as being against his interest (or those of Haliburton – same thing) to start trouble with the Saudis. Osama being in Afghanistan at the time was probably a godsend. Remember that Afghanistan was willing to hand Osama over to the ICC, but not directly to the Americans? The Americans refused that reasonable request. What do you make of that?
There is some evidence of preplanning concerning torture even way back – what do you know concerning the Armed Services Members Protection Act of 2001?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/warcrimes/icc2.html
U.S. threatens to pull out of UN peacekeeping (June 2002)
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2002/06/21/un_icc020621.html
Here, Cheney protected himself legally. The laws that Yoo helped draft protected Cheney from any legal sanction if they got dirt on him. One would first need to strike down Yoo's laws and then Cheney could, as a last resort claim that he followed the law of the land at the time.
VAUDREE,
_NORAD_STOOD_DOWN_
Perhaps you are not aware that besides the 'standing down of NORAD' for the three pseudo-exercises, that Darth Cheney specifically removed the decades long standing provisions for FAA calling for the automatic scrambling of jets whenever an unknown blip was detected. Somehow I am dumfounded at the timing of this errant policy change, with no "improvements" to security deployed in parallel and overlapping (as any sane commander would do). Explain that.
Are you someone who is interested in the truth, and verifiable facts?
The facts are extremely legible for those willing to look, for over 50 years, protecting the air space of this country has been the domain of the Air Force, and automatic triggering of any errant radar signature was immediately reacted to -- even more so in recent times with massively improved radar installations (able to track bolts orbiting the earth - yes each one). Yes, 'standards sure have changed' as you say, when we "let" things like this happen (before or after any date).
_EXERCISES_ELIMINATED_NORMAL_DELAYS_
I will do as you ask and "Concede that, after the second plane hit the WTO, the US military should have been in full force", except that doesn't address how we got to that point. I mentioned the 3starGen's testimony to Congress (which you have no response to), where he asserted that BECAUSE of the exercises, the defenses were comparably more ready (than if we'd had no exercises) - as there was with no set-up time for 'manning of the screens'. Explain what was happening for the hour before the 1st impact, since they were already fully staffed?
_EVIL_COMPLICITY_
You say "Son says: the bush administration may be evil, but it isn't bright enough to keep something like that under wraps", and I'll quote from another CD who says similarly "I just can't believe that a man who is so manifestly incompetent could've pulled off 911."
Please consider that the shrub is acting much dumber than his otherwise obvious incompetence. As I've gone into in more detail here, he has PURPOSELY made the American people think of him as an idiot, and that gov't is incapable of protecting the public.
_SHOOT_DOWN_INNOCENTS_
You misdirect me with your argument of "shooting down a plane full of innocent people", as there weren't even planes close enough to act, so there never was a real risk. Why is that? We put our best fighter pilots (scrambled) into the sky, which has occurred from what I recall thousands of times, to visually connect with plane's pilot - whose radio may have died. In all of those situations, we have NEVER done as the Soviets did over Korea -- and shot down a commercial planes.
_ORDERS_&_ACCOUNTABILITY_
You ask, "Yes, but whose orders? And what orders?" -- and I say Cheney and Bush, if not who was disciplined?
Thank you for stating the obvious, "Cheney wanted to attack Iraq with all of his being" -- and I agree, as this duplicity directly accelerated that process a thousand fold. You state that "it was Cheney, rather than Bush...running things" -- and while I agree that Cheney is powerfully inclined, if he did break the chain of command - he should have been already shot as traitor (we know that didn't happened, so Bush was in on it 100%).
You seemed to have skipped the issue of accountability, as we know that Bush & Co have had many spates with their generals, but none were punished for 911 - gimme a break and explain why? Are we no longer interested in learning from our mistakes that cause thousands of civilians to loose their lives?
You mentioned that "questioning of Condi reveals, that the CIA and the FBI wanted Cheney (or Rumpfelt) to take some things more seriously", but deflect the obvious incompetence of Condi with her own deflection any any serious issues.
_OSAMA_SAUD_
This is a red herring when you state "Cheney ... start trouble with the Saudis", and not true as well, they're big commercial buddies of entire Bushco (for ~ 30 yrs).
You say "Osama over to the ICC, but not directly to the Americans? The Americans refused that reasonable request. What do you make of that?". Osama was not the objective other than a ploy in get into IRAQ, and admin avoided many other opportunities to catch him, so I say that this just proves duplicity.
_Yoo_LAW_
Congress makes laws not justice dept legal experts, they only interpret what they think the admin can get away with.
Namaste
__ __ __ __ We must be the change
__ __ __ __ we wish to see in the world __ Gandhi