Impeach him.
Impeach them both.
But always love them.

frooze, i don't love anything about genocidle madmen. sometimes, hate is appropriate. for me, this is one of those times.

dougrambo,

Don't know if you'll ever be back. I usually have a cup of coffee before I get here.

Anyway, my argument is, and I know this is a wild possibility, but say you had been born in Bush's place. And grew up in isolated privileged, really never having the opportunity to experience any other kind of life or way of being or thinking. This is a stretch, I know, but, perhaps, you might act in the same fashion as Bush.

It would be better that you thought how fortunate you are to be born in your situation and be enlightened, then to curse Bush for being the devil. You can despise the evil that he does, and you might be justified. But it might also be better to think on these final words,

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

or,

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

I should add, though I have no idea what comes next, but with my post above in mind, there's a kind of logic in the idea of reincarnation.

This isn't exactly pertinent to Cindy's story...but then it totally is. In a recent overheard conversation at a big Fort Worth restaurant I heard one elderly lady ask another, "Are you really going to contribute to Cindy Sheehan's campaign." The lady replied, "I would but I am on Social Security and I am afraid that the government would find out and do something to my SS check." Does that say something about the now sorry state of affairs if an old lady, right here in the Bible Belt, is afraid of her own government? Comments? Cindy?

Geoff God does forgive and so should we, but some actions are not acceptable, and can not be tolerated or seen as having any good come from them. In a way I agree with Rambo, what you own is what you own, we all indulge ourselves to varying extents. When you sin you hurt yourself, or maybe at the most a few people around you, when Bush does, he does not just hurt people, he kills them, innocent men, women, and children. Four trilion dollars is missing from the US government, that is money that could have gone for the poor, and disadvantaged, the infrastructure of the US, to benefit all, but it has just vanished and no one knows where.......well I am sure a few know where it has gone. I grew up in a very well to do home, but I was always aware of how lucky I was, and also of those who did not have what I did, or the advantages I did. God also said something else Geoff in Isaiah 10, Woe to those who prescribe misfortune, who take what is right from the poor of my people...........what will they do in their day of misfortune? Forgiveness is always there, but there is also a cost to doing what God sees as wrong. He is just and righteous, and even though John said the rich will always oppress the poor, it is not something I believe God will tolerate for long, look at all the mighty empires that have gone to dust, one after another they crumble, ever wonder why?

the rich have been oppressing the poor since the beginning of time. i wouldn't count on your god losing his tolerance any time soon.

MASSUD shares, "Sounded more like "how can you articulate progressive politics into Christianity as opposed to conservative politics?" I can identify with Ms. Sheehan's tone. The very fact such a question WOULD be asked given the EVIDENCE of what Christian conservatives stand for--their EVERY policy designed to punish not love, heal or show peace--calls for cynicism. ONLY in times that have departed so vastly from any semblance of a spiritual ideal could such a question be uttered.

TERRY B: Good posting.

Just spent the morning watching CBC's coverage of Remembrance Day in Canada. At 11:00 on November 11th, everything comes to a halt for two minutes of silence. The program showed the service in Ottawa, and also had stories of various servicemen, remembrances, etc. It is very moving. Canada does not forget.

Here in the US, the Sunday papers are twice as thick as usual, with ads for "Veterans Day Sales" and the only thing you are likely to hear is, "Attention Shoppers!"

It is way past time for this madness to cease, for our service members to come home, to honor our war dead by not creating anymore of them, or anybody else's.

War should be the absolute last resort in self defense, after all efforts at diplomacy have failed and an attack is obviously eminent, by an obdurate belligerent.

Sacrificing thousands of our own and millions of innocents in another country for oil, or because you think war is neat and the profits are enormous, is sick, criminal, and the perpetrators of such things should be locked away and given treatment.

Amongst the dead may be the man who would have discovered the cure to cancer and other deadly diseases, the composer who may have surpassed Mozart or Brahms, the playwright or poet who might have succeeded Shakespeare, the statesman who could have brought about world peace or the person who might have been able to end world hunger.

Those are the might-have-been's. The reality is the millions of humans who have died, fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, fighters and civilians in this past century, all with the dream of peace and human dignity before them. Yet, with the new millennium, war still goes on around the world.

Let us give pause in remembrance of those who died, often alone and forgotten, victim of mine and booby trap, sniper fire or disease and infection, whose resting place is unmarked save for perhaps a little more verdant growth where they have nurtured the soil.

Let us give pause in remembrance for those who survived, maimed in body or soul by the atrocity of war.

Let us give pause in remembrance for those who survived to carry on, with nothing but memories, of which they do not speak.

Let us give pause in remembrance for those whose lives ended abruptly, without warning, on 11 September. And those of all nations and beliefs who continue to die by war and terrorism.

Let us give pause and reflect, that we might carry out our lives in such a way that love and tolerance might overbalance hatred and bigotry in the scales of life and the dream of peace might become a reality, so those we remember today did not die in vain.

Yours for peace and sanity in our time.

libertas fugit, ty. well said.

Terryb you are right the rich will always oppress the poor, but there seems to be a pattern of empires collapsing under the weight of their own greed and selfishness. That is what I was referring to, how one after another God brings them down, and the trouble is so many innocent people, good people, get harmed in the end.

paulbk, no offence, but i don't think your god had anything to do with it. these empires always implode, only because there comes a time when they are overcome by other powers, right here on the terra firma. if he, she, it, does exist, it is more than obvious, that we have all been left on our own to sort things out. this is the reality that we have to come to terms with.

As a student at the University of Dallas, and an attendant of last week's lecture, I hope I may contribute something fruitful to the discussion by clarifying the question - "How do you reconcile your progressive ideals with your faith?" - asked of Mrs. Sheehan while attempting to defend my alma mater. First, the intellectual climate of the University of Dallas is hardly characterized by a "depth of ignorance of Jesus of Nazareth." 'Ignorant' would be one of the last adjectives used to describe a University of Dallas student, especially when the knowledge concerns scripture.
Jesus advocated peace. No one can deny that; and contrary to Mrs. Sheehan's portrayal, no one denied this at the lecture. I would not be surprised if Mrs. Sheehan was unable to find a single student who claimed that Jesus was against peace or supported warmongering. Most know the leader of the Catholic Church, John Paul II, urged a peaceful solution in Iraq. Yet I do not want to take up the issue of the Iraq war in particular, but rather Mrs. Sheehan's charge that we "self proclaimed Christians" fail to understand the message in scripture.
All who are well informed in the scriptures should recognize the importance of peace. Mrs. Sheehan is correct in saying a true Christian prefers peace. That is a simple statement to make, one that is true, yet as many general principles it requires further interpretation when it is to be applied. Is peace the absence of warfare? Well, yes, it seems like it is. But then, are there sometimes horrible situations where war is necessary? Judging by the evidence of history, it seems that there are. So it seems the Christian is left in a horrible predicament. The Christian would seemingly be cursed (according to Mrs. Sheehan's reversed beatitude) as a war-maker, and forced to suffer danger or injustice if unable to fight.
Yet is there no other option? The Catholic, with his supposedly insufficient knowledge of scripture, would say "yes, there is the possibility of a just war." Justice produces peace; without justice there is no peace. There can be an absence of war in an unjust world, except I would be reluctant to call that peace; it may be more appropriate to call that subjection. "I bring not peace, but the sword" (Matthew 10:34), I do not interpret this as a call to war, but as an acknowledgement that at times the believer must take up the sword for justice -- only when justice rules does peace flourish.
Now, was Jesus "the ultimate progressive radical?" I will reluctantly overcome my deep mistrust of using nineteenth-century political terms to categorize the actions of Jesus in an attempt to come to terms with Mrs. Sheehan's argument. Or should I even try? Is this where the misunderstanding resides? Does Mrs. Sheehan not see that the questioner wanted to know how she reconciled a political doctrine that largely addresses material wants and desires of man, with a religion that addresses the spiritual wants and desires of man? I must stop here, and wait for a response. But I am happy to take up the argument on Jesus' "progressive radicalism" once someone (preferably Mrs. Sheehan) has provided a fitting definition of these terms. One final note, I am sure Mrs. Sheehan would be happy to know that this week's student newspaper included several censures (from admittedly conservative students) of the "Support the Troops Party" sponsored by the College Republicans.

Nearly everyone is hoping for a favorable outcome for themselves no matter what their persuasion, I'm inclined to believe - even by their very next breath. This phenomenon gives to existence its continuing complexity.

Someone (an avatar perhaps, who can say?) once asked me what I would do if my loved ones and myself were threatened with unspeakable horrors. Would I believe in nonviolence? Would I stand by? Would I fear doing something or nothing because I was afraid of action? It would all depend I think on infinite variables.

Once there is movement, there is chaos agitation conflict resolution in ever perpetuating spirals. Comings together and fallings apart or its opposite. Our very atoms move and history may be created by thoughts alone as each of us is an inhabitant, an occupant of time, and so a catalyst to it.

no matter what you do or don't do it seems that it all ends in everyone dieing here on this earth. What's death and dieing to the eternal and to God? For whom from which source there is from nothing something.

"Peace" has many different meanings. Interpretations differ as to what the nature of that fight should or should not be. As Ghandi interpreted it, non violence was the weapon of choice and it worked. But time changes all things in its course and often to its opposite continually confounding us mortals as to "what to do?" And so complexities continue and we continue to live our individuated dramas.

It's all quite brilliant, and in living we can appreciate that at the very least.

Which one studious interpretation may be to say, Christian Soldier, go thou and do likewise: live. And while you are living, think a little for thyself.

Snuff, live and think outside an individuated drama; do this and one might overcome solipsism. Aware of our own fixed telos in a dynamic universe, we might approach that transcendent thing that is not so ambivalent to our activities. Thus we can discover answers and solve the real problems of our community, instead of flying off like some god into the fabled worlds of individuated narcisstic imagination.