Faith and War

Snuff, live and think outside an individuated drama; do this and one might overcome solipsism. Aware of our own fixed telos in a dynamic universe, we might approach that transcendent thing that is not so ambivalent to our activities. Thus we can discover answers and solve the real problems of our community, instead of flying off like some god into the fabled worlds of individuated narcisstic imagination.

Which one studious interpretation may be to say, Christian Soldier, go thou and do likewise: live. And while you are living, think a little for thyself.

Nearly everyone is hoping for a favorable outcome for themselves no matter what their persuasion, I'm inclined to believe - even by their very next breath. This phenomenon gives to existence its continuing complexity.

Someone (an avatar perhaps, who can say?) once asked me what I would do if my loved ones and myself were threatened with unspeakable horrors. Would I believe in nonviolence? Would I stand by? Would I fear doing something or nothing because I was afraid of action? It would all depend I think on infinite variables.

Once there is movement, there is chaos agitation conflict resolution in ever perpetuating spirals. Comings together and fallings apart or its opposite. Our very atoms move and history may be created by thoughts alone as each of us is an inhabitant, an occupant of time, and so a catalyst to it.

no matter what you do or don't do it seems that it all ends in everyone dieing here on this earth. What's death and dieing to the eternal and to God? For whom from which source there is from nothing something.

"Peace" has many different meanings. Interpretations differ as to what the nature of that fight should or should not be. As Ghandi interpreted it, non violence was the weapon of choice and it worked. But time changes all things in its course and often to its opposite continually confounding us mortals as to "what to do?" And so complexities continue and we continue to live our individuated dramas.

It's all quite brilliant, and in living we can appreciate that at the very least.

As a student at the University of Dallas, and an attendant of last week's lecture, I hope I may contribute something fruitful to the discussion by clarifying the question - "How do you reconcile your progressive ideals with your faith?" - asked of Mrs. Sheehan while attempting to defend my alma mater. First, the intellectual climate of the University of Dallas is hardly characterized by a "depth of ignorance of Jesus of Nazareth." 'Ignorant' would be one of the last adjectives used to describe a University of Dallas student, especially when the knowledge concerns scripture.
Jesus advocated peace. No one can deny that; and contrary to Mrs. Sheehan's portrayal, no one denied this at the lecture. I would not be surprised if Mrs. Sheehan was unable to find a single student who claimed that Jesus was against peace or supported warmongering. Most know the leader of the Catholic Church, John Paul II, urged a peaceful solution in Iraq. Yet I do not want to take up the issue of the Iraq war in particular, but rather Mrs. Sheehan's charge that we "self proclaimed Christians" fail to understand the message in scripture.
All who are well informed in the scriptures should recognize the importance of peace. Mrs. Sheehan is correct in saying a true Christian prefers peace. That is a simple statement to make, one that is true, yet as many general principles it requires further interpretation when it is to be applied. Is peace the absence of warfare? Well, yes, it seems like it is. But then, are there sometimes horrible situations where war is necessary? Judging by the evidence of history, it seems that there are. So it seems the Christian is left in a horrible predicament. The Christian would seemingly be cursed (according to Mrs. Sheehan's reversed beatitude) as a war-maker, and forced to suffer danger or injustice if unable to fight.
Yet is there no other option? The Catholic, with his supposedly insufficient knowledge of scripture, would say "yes, there is the possibility of a just war." Justice produces peace; without justice there is no peace. There can be an absence of war in an unjust world, except I would be reluctant to call that peace; it may be more appropriate to call that subjection. "I bring not peace, but the sword" (Matthew 10:34), I do not interpret this as a call to war, but as an acknowledgement that at times the believer must take up the sword for justice -- only when justice rules does peace flourish.
Now, was Jesus "the ultimate progressive radical?" I will reluctantly overcome my deep mistrust of using nineteenth-century political terms to categorize the actions of Jesus in an attempt to come to terms with Mrs. Sheehan's argument. Or should I even try? Is this where the misunderstanding resides? Does Mrs. Sheehan not see that the questioner wanted to know how she reconciled a political doctrine that largely addresses material wants and desires of man, with a religion that addresses the spiritual wants and desires of man? I must stop here, and wait for a response. But I am happy to take up the argument on Jesus' "progressive radicalism" once someone (preferably Mrs. Sheehan) has provided a fitting definition of these terms. One final note, I am sure Mrs. Sheehan would be happy to know that this week's student newspaper included several censures (from admittedly conservative students) of the "Support the Troops Party" sponsored by the College Republicans.

paulbk, no offence, but i don't think your god had anything to do with it. these empires always implode, only because there comes a time when they are overcome by other powers, right here on the terra firma. if he, she, it, does exist, it is more than obvious, that we have all been left on our own to sort things out. this is the reality that we have to come to terms with.

Terryb you are right the rich will always oppress the poor, but there seems to be a pattern of empires collapsing under the weight of their own greed and selfishness. That is what I was referring to, how one after another God brings them down, and the trouble is so many innocent people, good people, get harmed in the end.

libertas fugit, ty. well said.

Just spent the morning watching CBC's coverage of Remembrance Day in Canada. At 11:00 on November 11th, everything comes to a halt for two minutes of silence. The program showed the service in Ottawa, and also had stories of various servicemen, remembrances, etc. It is very moving. Canada does not forget.

Here in the US, the Sunday papers are twice as thick as usual, with ads for "Veterans Day Sales" and the only thing you are likely to hear is, "Attention Shoppers!"

It is way past time for this madness to cease, for our service members to come home, to honor our war dead by not creating anymore of them, or anybody else's.

War should be the absolute last resort in self defense, after all efforts at diplomacy have failed and an attack is obviously eminent, by an obdurate belligerent.

Sacrificing thousands of our own and millions of innocents in another country for oil, or because you think war is neat and the profits are enormous, is sick, criminal, and the perpetrators of such things should be locked away and given treatment.

Amongst the dead may be the man who would have discovered the cure to cancer and other deadly diseases, the composer who may have surpassed Mozart or Brahms, the playwright or poet who might have succeeded Shakespeare, the statesman who could have brought about world peace or the person who might have been able to end world hunger.

Those are the might-have-been's. The reality is the millions of humans who have died, fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, fighters and civilians in this past century, all with the dream of peace and human dignity before them. Yet, with the new millennium, war still goes on around the world.

Let us give pause in remembrance of those who died, often alone and forgotten, victim of mine and booby trap, sniper fire or disease and infection, whose resting place is unmarked save for perhaps a little more verdant growth where they have nurtured the soil.

Let us give pause in remembrance for those who survived, maimed in body or soul by the atrocity of war.

Let us give pause in remembrance for those who survived to carry on, with nothing but memories, of which they do not speak.

Let us give pause in remembrance for those whose lives ended abruptly, without warning, on 11 September. And those of all nations and beliefs who continue to die by war and terrorism.

Let us give pause and reflect, that we might carry out our lives in such a way that love and tolerance might overbalance hatred and bigotry in the scales of life and the dream of peace might become a reality, so those we remember today did not die in vain.

Yours for peace and sanity in our time.

MASSUD shares, "Sounded more like "how can you articulate progressive politics into Christianity as opposed to conservative politics?" I can identify with Ms. Sheehan's tone. The very fact such a question WOULD be asked given the EVIDENCE of what Christian conservatives stand for--their EVERY policy designed to punish not love, heal or show peace--calls for cynicism. ONLY in times that have departed so vastly from any semblance of a spiritual ideal could such a question be uttered.

TERRY B: Good posting.

the rich have been oppressing the poor since the beginning of time. i wouldn't count on your god losing his tolerance any time soon.

Geoff God does forgive and so should we, but some actions are not acceptable, and can not be tolerated or seen as having any good come from them. In a way I agree with Rambo, what you own is what you own, we all indulge ourselves to varying extents. When you sin you hurt yourself, or maybe at the most a few people around you, when Bush does, he does not just hurt people, he kills them, innocent men, women, and children. Four trilion dollars is missing from the US government, that is money that could have gone for the poor, and disadvantaged, the infrastructure of the US, to benefit all, but it has just vanished and no one knows where.......well I am sure a few know where it has gone. I grew up in a very well to do home, but I was always aware of how lucky I was, and also of those who did not have what I did, or the advantages I did. God also said something else Geoff in Isaiah 10, Woe to those who prescribe misfortune, who take what is right from the poor of my people...........what will they do in their day of misfortune? Forgiveness is always there, but there is also a cost to doing what God sees as wrong. He is just and righteous, and even though John said the rich will always oppress the poor, it is not something I believe God will tolerate for long, look at all the mighty empires that have gone to dust, one after another they crumble, ever wonder why?

This isn't exactly pertinent to Cindy's story...but then it totally is. In a recent overheard conversation at a big Fort Worth restaurant I heard one elderly lady ask another, "Are you really going to contribute to Cindy Sheehan's campaign." The lady replied, "I would but I am on Social Security and I am afraid that the government would find out and do something to my SS check." Does that say something about the now sorry state of affairs if an old lady, right here in the Bible Belt, is afraid of her own government? Comments? Cindy?

I should add, though I have no idea what comes next, but with my post above in mind, there's a kind of logic in the idea of reincarnation.

dougrambo,

Don't know if you'll ever be back. I usually have a cup of coffee before I get here.

Anyway, my argument is, and I know this is a wild possibility, but say you had been born in Bush's place. And grew up in isolated privileged, really never having the opportunity to experience any other kind of life or way of being or thinking. This is a stretch, I know, but, perhaps, you might act in the same fashion as Bush.

It would be better that you thought how fortunate you are to be born in your situation and be enlightened, then to curse Bush for being the devil. You can despise the evil that he does, and you might be justified. But it might also be better to think on these final words,

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

or,

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

frooze, i don't love anything about genocidle madmen. sometimes, hate is appropriate. for me, this is one of those times.

Impeach him.
Impeach them both.
But always love them.

Geoff 29: Now I know you are definitely on the canabis! But all that aside. What is evil about owning a Corvette? What is evil about having possessions. I used the Corvette story to say that Bush went into Iraq like a person might go after someones possession and become a murderer in the process. Iraq made Bush evil in my eyes when he went into Iraq for primarily the oil and killed so many people. He became a murderer even though he had his office and being commander in chief to hide behind . Bush is still a murderer at heart and will be judged accordingly no matter how many "evil-doers" he thinks he is dealing with.

Bush and Cheney are in fact doing a lot of evil, and too many churches are silent on what they are doing. It is more important to fight abortion, pornography, and other causes, but murdering innocent women and children is acceptable, when it comes to oil. In South America it is okay to support murderous dictatorships, as long as those leaders were profit friendly to the U.S. corporations, and government. It did not matter how many people died, or disappeared, as long as these thugs remained in control. The churches have been silent for too long, they do a lot of good, but there are somethings they need to take a closer look at, right under their noses.

Well, the Catholic Church has been moving at the Vatican level, although the American bishops don't seem to be following.

Pope Benedict chose his name after a Pope best known for calling on political leaders to stop World War I. He appointed a Secretary of State who used his first meeting with the diplomatic corps to praise conscientious objectors.

He made this beautiful speech earlier this year:

Dear Brothers and Sisters!

This Sunday's Gospel has one of the most typical, yet most difficult, teachings of Jesus: Love your enemies (Luke 6:27).

It is taken from the Gospel of Luke, but it is also found in Matthew's Gospel (5:44), in the context of the programmatic discourse that begins with the famous Beatitudes. Jesus delivered this address in Galilee, at the beginning of his public ministry: It was something of a "manifesto" presented to everyone, which Christ asked his disciples to accept, thus proposing to them in radical terms a model for their lives.

But what is the meaning of his teaching? Why does Jesus ask us to love our very enemies, that is, ask a love that exceeds human capacities? What is certain is that Christ's proposal is realistic, because it takes into account that in the world there is too much violence, too much injustice, and that this situation cannot be overcome without positing more love, more kindness. This "more" comes from God: It is his mercy that has become flesh in Jesus and that alone can redress the balance of the world from evil to good, beginning from that small and decisive "world" which is man's heart.

This page of the Gospel is rightly considered the "magna carta" of Christian nonviolence; it does not consist in surrendering to evil -- as claims a false interpretation of turn the other cheek (Luke 6:29) -- but in responding to evil with good. (Romans 12:17-21), and thus breaking the chain of injustice. It is thus understood that nonviolence, for Christians, is not mere tactical behavior but a person's way of being, the attitude of one who is convinced of God's love and power, who is not afraid to confront evil with the weapons of love and truth alone. Loving the enemy is the nucleus of the "Christian revolution," a revolution not based on strategies of economic, political or media power. The revolution of love, a love that does not base itself definitively in human resources, but in the gift of God, that is obtained only and unreservedly in his merciful goodness. Herein lies the novelty of the Gospel, which changes the world without making noise. Herein lies the heroism of the "little ones," who believe in the love of God and spread it even at the cost of life.

Dear brothers and sisters: Lent, which begins this Wednesday, with the rite of the distribution of ashes, is the favorable time in which all Christians are invited to convert ever more deeply to the love of Christ.

Let us ask the Virgin Mary, the docile disciple of the Redeemer, to help us to allow ourselves to be conquered without reservations by that love, to learn to love as he loved us, to be merciful as our heavenly Father is merciful (Luke 6:36).

Hi Cindy,

I had to chuckle a bit. Back in the 70's, we went to Utah to visit relatives. We got the usual tours. As we are not members of the church, we couldn't go into the Temple, but were shown photos of the room prepared for Christ on his return. Gold and silver, silks and satins! Fit for a king or queen!

I said at the time, "If Christ returns as a simple carpenter, or looks like a long haired hippy wearing sandals and driving an old VW Van, preaching peace and love, they'll send him back again and again, until he gets it right and knows to come back in a three piece suit with a big bank account."

A lot of good stuff in Luke too.

elvira, you correct cindy for claiming to know what jesus believed, or what he would do, then you turn around and say that you know what he said, or didn't say. this gets more laughable by the minute.

What kind of strange stuff is this, coming from a woman who now claims to know what Jesus believes and what Jesus would do if he was here now.

What Ms. sheehan forgets though, is that the Jesus whom she refers to, stating that we should emulate his actions, was infact a Palestinian, whose descendent was an Iraqi called Abraham, with both never actually saying "blessed are the peace makers", after they sent their children out to war.

There are other sayings in the religious texts, that I think Ms. Sheehan should contemplate learning, in particular the ones which warn the children of God to beware of those who are claiming to be the "false prophets", where the trickery of the devil will claim to be acting on the words of the one God.

Could this be the reason why Ms. Sheehan was overjoyed when she was welcomed by Nouri Al-Maliki, the current Prime Minister of Iraq, whose page in history will not be written in ink but in the blood of those his governments deaths squads have ethnically cleansed, raped, murdered and tortured.

"Blessed are they who mourn" Ms. Sheehan, for theirs is the Kingdom of God!

jassim, i have to agree.

Cindy Sheehan writes:

' And to the person who said I "sent my son to war," I did nothing of the kind.
I begged Casey not to go. Casey went to protect his buddies and some are alive because of his bravery…what were any of them doing there anyway?'

I am that person, but that is not what I wrote, scroll up. I wrote that those who invaded a devastated country, after a thirteen year US/UK generated UN embargo, which killed an average of 6000 a month of 'embargo related causes', (UN Reports) a country which posed no threat to the US comitted the 'supreme international crime' under the Nuremberg edicts. War crimes. At Nuremberg, ignorance was no defence and that is now enshrined in international law.

Ms Sheehan, you are alleged as saying, of your son, before he left for Iraq, that you both knew it was illegal, but he answered the call when his Commander in Chief requested. If this is correct, it is the 'supreme international crime', if it is not, please clarify for those who have read these quotes.

Best, jassim.

maxhemust, nice to hear a little optimism. :)

============

Humanity is between two ~2,150 year cosmic cycles called Pisces and Aquarius. About half the people on earth (political conservatives) are clinging to the outdated, competitive, crude ways of the past. The other half (progressive/liberal) wants to rebuild the world so that it's a great place for everyone. We are destined to succeed. The timing depends on the sum total of our efforts.

why are the churches silent? where are the godly people who will stand up for their poor bretheren?...... they are all trying to decide what to do with their stock options!

Nothing teaches like contrast. Compare MLK to Nancy and the Bendovercrats today. Please post this on big newspaper websites to counter the corporate media censorship. Easily one of the top five speeches in America hisstory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80Bsw0UG-U

Cindy,
The question you ask has been much on my own mind of late.
How do Christians of any religion believe that it is right to exclude poor Mexicans from doing strenuous work to earn a meager income for their families?
How can they believe it is right for mentally and emotionally handicapped people to live homeless on the streets?
How can they believe that when God gave "dominion" over every animal and every plant he meant Americans could suck most of the oil out of the earth for their own use? Put poor farmers out of business all over the world? Conspire with other governments to abuse their people for the benefit of the American corporations?
And send soldiers to their death to secure the oil that makes it possible to continue this insanity?
Why are the churches silent? Where are the Godly people who will stand up for their poor brethren? Why do they choose to follow the hatemongers who blame the poor and oppressed for the problems of the world?

and that those who own the stuff that the man who comes for with weapons and desire, are a part of the same problem, evil if you will. So you are being overly simplistic. In the same manner as has been Bush.

Mat 19:21 If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell- your corvette - and give to the poor: But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful and asked what "geoff29" had been smoking:" for he had great possessions.

a person (who wants or owns lots of stuff) shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a man (with a corvette to drive there.)

The only point I have tried to make is the unfortunate use of the word hate in the KJV of the Bible when all Jesus is trying to tell his would be disciples is If you want to be my disciple you have to love me far more than any family member. What it really comes down to is: Is the Bible inspired or not? Should it be reverently studied and adhered to. Or is it up to ridicule and even contempt. Once that basic decision is made everything falls into place. Good talking to you. You seem to be an open honest person. Have a good one.

dougrambo - I'm no biblical scholar. I'm saying various scholars say they never existed, and I trust those scholars since they appear to be non-judgmental (no hidden agenda). Evidently it was common practice back then to piece together stories, by group consent, and ascribe the result to someone admired by the group. We view that as dishonest somehow, but it wasn't. It was just hows things were done in those days. I do believe however that that throws a whole new light on the subject matter.

And you're still just interpreting things, though you've widened the context. That's ok though, as long as you don't force others to love their families less, or hate them, so that they can be disciples.

Of course Pat Robertson supported Rudy they are of the same faith, CASH BASED HYPOCRACY!

Geoff 29: What have you been smoking? You seem out of touch with reality.

Kanejeeves: What do you mean I made your point exactly? I didn't change what Jesus said. It's just that the King James chose the word hate to mean love less. If you want to play exegesis of the bible the word in greek is "miseho"
and means to love-less as found in Strongs dictionary. If you go back and read the scripture this can only be what he is saying because the real emphasis in on discipleship not hating your family. Also go read Mat 5:43 and Luke 6:27. Even though you say they never existed! When you have made a thorough study of the bible then maybe you can make some intelligent assessment of it. But by listening to you it is obvious you have never even read it.

If you thought the world was on the brink of being overrun by Islamofascists, and Western civilization (i.e. Judeo-Christian civilization) was in jeopardy, you'd support leaders who acted accordingly. You'd agree that the Ends (saving civilization) justifies the Means (domestic spying, invasion, etc). "Evil" is in the eyes of the beholder. Or if you're a Fox Network fanatic, then it's not. :)

Why do we continue to wallow in this 2000 year old gobblygook? G

you mean like with a smirk doing their dastardly deeds?

give away your corvette!

How can you say George Bush and Cheney are not evil? Mean spirited? When you invade an country with an army you know there will be deaths and there are always civilian deaths. If you came to my house with trumped up charges that you knew were false because you had an overwhelming desire to possess my Corvettte in my garage and came in with guns blazing and killed me and my family to get what you wanted so badly. I wouldn't call you mean spirited I'd call you and evil murderous thief that only deserves to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!

It's too easy to think that people are evil. George Bush isn't evil, nor is Cheney. Perhaps they are mean spirited, perhaps they even mean well, perhaps they mean well in a different way than they can know and so are fools, perhaps they are merely foolish.

It's a struggle.

Shanti,

I hadn't read any of your posts until the point about capital letters was raised by the intelligentsia, but I see there's some good in them.

maybe you could bend a little? half caps, half small print? just a thought, do as you please.

Has anyone shaved George Bush's head to see if there is a '666' there?????? I don't believe much in the fairy tales of the Bible anymore. But, if there is such a person as the 'Antichrist' it must be George W Bush. He is one evil self-absorded dude! Cheney and the rest of the cabinet are his minions from hell!

would you really have a god like santa claus? what would be the purpose? what should death and suffering and destruction be to a god should or should you not choose to be able to see one, or should a one be seen by you? Perhaps it's what we make of it?

Antithetically, what's all this talk about Christ? Here we have Cindy who lives the sublime, what goes on behind the curtains, and leads the way, or have I missed the point?

Cindy's story is cleverly done, cleverly done by Cindy! She might have behaved in a different fashion and desired for example revenge, or maybe passively accepted the dogma of the state would be more the case? But she reached further and saw what to do, and so might we?

here is a mirror held up to what is horrible and false and deceitful and tiresome and bland.

each of us stands wringing our hands, "what's to be done?" on the field of Kurukshetra, would your ideological fundamentalist refer to that?

dougrambo - You made my point exactly...you didn't agree with what Jesus said in Luke 14:25 (you must hate your family, your friends, etc. before you can be my disciple) so you rationalize it away by wordsmithing "hate". Instead, you should recognize that the bible was pieced together, sometimes accurately reflecting what was said, sometimes not. That's a whole 'nuther discussion. If you're interested check out Bart Ehrman's books. He's a former born-again, now agnostic, and his writing it very non-judgmental...just the facts and current theories, which is refreshing.

Thanks, Cindy.

Despite my late atheistic leanings at my core
I believe God is in all of us, the way it's
expressed is through creativity and helping others.

what kind of god would allow all the suffering in the world? it is the kind of god, that i personally want nothing to with. he, she, it, obviously has no power, or he, she, it would not allow the 25,000 innocent children to suffer and die everyday. if he, she, it does have the power and still does not act, that is even worse. the bible was written by mere mortals, to satisfy their own personal interests. how in the hell do any of you know what jesus said or did not say? this happened 2,000 years ago people. because you read it, does that that make it true? lets get real here. the question of if there is, or is not a god, is one that none of us has the answer to. we are all too ignorant in that regard. you will find out when you die, and not before. we are obviously on our own, and it is up to us to solve our problems. if you believe that someone, or some thing is going to come down and make eveything go away, well, you may may want to live your life in that fantasy, but for me, if you want something done, do it yourself. jesus was a good MAN, one of many. your beliefs,... are just that. now lets get on with the business of humanity. THAT, is our salvation, not mythology.

How horrible that someone would say Cindy sent her son to war. I don't know his reasons for going, but as an adult, how could she stop him? Many were mislead LIED TO by this administration. Amazingly to this day there are still people who believe That Iraq had something to do with 9-11. Most went believing they were doing the right thing, protecting our Country and remained to do the right thing by not abandoning their fellow soldiers. This woman lost her son and your idea of Christianity is to blame her for it. Shame on you.

In almost every street block in America on the average there is one church, and every Sunday these churches are almost full of people. I wonder what these people do in there and what they pray for while their government, their sons and daughters and/or the sons and daughters of their neighbors continue killing innocent people on a lie. I wonder if they know that their government is engaged in killing innocent people on the other side of the world in order to steal their oil, all with their help and their tax dollars.

If they don't know that much, neither do the sheep, the donkeys, and the pigs. But if they know and keep silent, if they know but do not actively protest, then they are complicit in the crimes, for the churches, the mosques, and the synagogues are the houses of God and are the best places to rise up against ungodly acts.

But alas, the churches in America today have become an undeclared component of the military-industrial complex. So quit going to church, for if you go in as a young donkey, you'll only come out as an adult one. I'm sure glad that I am not the type of people that go to church in America.

Hang in there Cindy! If they're calling you names it means they know you are around.

BTW I saw a poll that showed that Nancy Pelosi's approval rating has dropped thirteen percent in her district.

Lobo Gris

Always good articles Ms. Sheehan. Thank you and good luck in your campaign.

Lobo Gris

KEM PATRICK says: and sent him to be born of a virgin

An unmarried virgin who was betrothed to Joseph and whom Joseph married knowing that she was pregnant and not by him. From what I can remember, Joseph did not sleep with Mary as her husband until after the birth of Jesus. Jesus had younger half siblings.

If it turns out, like they hint in Jesus of Montreal, that Mary was impregnated by someone other than the holy spirit would that destroy your faith or does your faith depend upon it? In many of the early languages, the same word was used to denote both an unmarried woman and a virgin. I think that I read in Northrup Frye somewhere (though I can't find it) that the task with which one is entrusted can itself be virgin whether the person entrusted with the task actually is one or not.

What ever the situation, it took courage for Mary to stay with child and courage by Joseph to stand by her. I don't know if Mary was a virgin in the never had sex sense. I don't know if Mary was a virgin in the still intact sense. I don't know if Mary was a virgin in this being the first time she put her faith so completely in god and god's designs for her. Which ever it is is not really all that important to me.

Christ died for our sins in one way or another and encouraged us all to be good to each other. Isn't that enough to believe in? If not the dying part (if you have issues surrounding death), Christ's belief in the goodness of humanity, his feminism, his pacifism, his care and respect for even the most despised?

Feel more comfortable praying to God than Christ any way. It is a personal thing. And if we were all created in God's image then got is male and female, black and white, gay and straight and everything in between all simultaneously.

There is the issue of whether Christ was god in human form, someone who was fully human or someone who was half and half. If Christ resisting temptation is important to you, then Christ has to be at least partially human. Robots don't feel temptation so they cannot truly be said to resist it.

KEM PATRICK says: Satan was also at one time, a member of God's Supreme council and still has the power to control lives on this world, and is still gathering souls to fight with him durng the final storm.

What is satan if he is not hate and greed and the devaluation of humanity? Satan wins every time we with to hurt others. Greed is a worse sin than hate because with greed the victims are just collateral damage. Greed, in its most vile form, makes one indifferent to the suffering one causes. When Linda McQuaig or Bill Blaikie speak of how the spindoctors of the right have elevated greed to a virtue, they might as well be saying that satan/the anti-christ has convinced the gullible that evil is good or that vice is the highest virture. Actually, that is probably what they are saying.

yoj says: Our US economy collapses–we are in Chaos–most in fear.

Not everyone lost out during the Great Depression. Bankrupt businesses and foreclosed homes can be purchased at bargain basement prices if you have the cash. There is money to be made in human misery.

KEM PATRICK says: And I don't believe Howard Dean is on the same level as Jesus is. He certainly is on a much higher level than George Bush is though. Which I suppose isn't saying much, come to think of it.

There is a difference between having faith and being deserving or worthy of one's faith. Many who supported Dean did so without doubt or hesitation. Same goes for Bush. I think you are talking about worthiness here.

How different is faith and doubt? Is the presence of doubt a sign that one's faith is not strong enough or is doubt something that only destroys the type of faith that is unworthy of the name? If one can question and still believe, isn't what one believes based on something more substantial?

SALMON RUSHDIE: "Question: What is the opposite of faith? Not disbelief. Too final, certain, closed. Itself a kind of belief. Doubt."

NOTHRUP FRYE: The mind seems to want to expand, to move from the close fortresses of believer and skeptic to the community of vision. At this point we realize that faith has its dialectical opposite as well, and must somehow combine with it. Doubt then ceases to be the enemy of faith and becomes its complement, and we see that the real enemy is not doubt, but merely the mental insensitivity that does not see what all the fuss is about. The bedrock of doubt is the total nothingness of death. Death is a leveler, not because everybody dies, but because nobody understands what death means.

KEM PATRICK says: To me it means to be saved from joining the devil and his army and to be saved fom eventually havng to live an eternal life in Hell,

If you are Ann Coulter it means "saved from voting Democrat." I guess the easy answer is "saved from evil" which leaves us to define what evil is. I believe that hatred is evil, though it took me much longer to believe that self-hatred was evil also. When I was younger, I believed that this whole category of hate was somehow exempt from being called hate.

Except for on earth, I don't really believe in a Hell. I do, however, believe in purgatory - where we are purged of all our sins before we can enter heaven. Everyone eventually makes it into Heaven, though I get the feeling that Cheney will be spending a few painful centuries in purgatory. I think that I just earned a few more hours in purgatory for taking joying in Cheney's suffering in purgatory, but I think it will be worth it.

"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword"
History is full of examples of this, and Jesus spoke true words, as always full of wisdom and truth. Those who forget this lesson will keep repeating the same mistakes over and over, but not only for themselves, but for the innocent too.

The depression is closer than you I or any may wish to believe YOJ, and the things you just posted can happen at any time. __ Be prepared.

Faith? Once Christ said to his deciples, "Oh ye of little FAITH". Then he stilled the storm.

VAUDREE, you ask me what does it mean to believe or have faith in a person? "As a child", Christ said. As a chld, we belileved our mothers, fathers and had faith in them. At least most little children did or do, until they reach the age where they know more than their parents do. "Have faith in me as a little child". Hope that answers your question, if not, perhaps you may seriously think about it, if you honesty wished to know how.

And I don't believe Howard Dean is on the same level as Jesus is. He certainly is on a much higher level than George Bush is though. Which I suppose isn't saying much, come to think of it.

Then you ask, what does it mean to be saved and saved from what?

To me it means to be saved from joining the devil and his army and to be saved fom eventually havng to live an eternal life in Hell, or a planet which will be far worse than what we know as life on our now ruined planet. Of course, if one does not believe in an afterlife, in a heaven, a Paradise, a Hell, then it does not matter anyway. I happen to believe we will have an afterlife, and even perhaps have had many here on Earth already and perhaps more to come.

Perhaps we are given several chances to return to Paradise, or even live one life in each of the twelve different tribes, in order to gain wisdom and strength when we finish our time here, and or, to believe by FAITH that there is a God and his only son came here to delver us from a Hell. We don't know the answers to the mysteries of who we really are, where did we originate, were we once among those who were cast out of heaven? Why are we here, and are we humans all alone in the universe, or are there others like us out there in the vastness of the universe?

All tribes of the world have similar stories as those which we have in our written Bibles and other religious books. Some have no written record, only beliefs, often called fables, passed down over the ages by word of mouth and through poems and songs. Again, because we do not have the answers, some of our beliefs can only be through faith in the words of Jesus and belive he is the son of God and if we believe that, we will be saved from joining Satan.

There was a great war in Heaven and one third of the angels joined Satan and were defeated and cast out of heaven. Cast out to where? Does God wish to prove to them, that they were wrong and allow them to redeem themselves? We don't know do we. We can make fun of it all, and or ignore it, ___ to our peril, ___ if we are again wrong.

Here's my intuit-hit.

* Iran refuses US treasury notes for anything (oil).

* We launch cruise missiles.

* Russia & China respond & they through out - FLOOD US $$ everywhere.

* Our US economy collapses--we are in Chaos--most in fear.

* The super secret military pulls off a fake, (mock) negative ET landing (s).

* Martial law is imposed due to the most scariest "realities" taking place.

Cindy,

Pelosi is only keeping your seat warm for you. I wished I lived in your district, even the same coast. East coast only for me. My daughter lives in L.A. and I visit her often. She said 'Mom, if you ever do move out here go to the Bay Area, you would go mad or get mad if you lived here'.
So Cindy, Could be I may be in your district when you run. My daughter will have all of her friend's there learn about you, then they have no choice, they will vote for you.
Peace
CPLBC

VAUDREE: Personally I would not mock God, if God chose to have Christ born to a virgin, that was his call. Could God accomplsh such a miracle? Well, he created the universe, he sent his only son, who was a member of his Supreme Council, here to Earth to save mankind, and sent him to be born of a virgin.

If you wish to mock God, that is your perogative, but I'd be careful of doing so. We all die and you and I do not know how it will turn out after we do die. Remember also, Satan was also at one time, a member of God's Supreme council and still has the power to control lives on this world, and is still gathering souls to fight with him durng the final storm. I'd much prefer to not be on his side, when that time arrives.

The early Gnostics probably approached the Jesus Mysteries and Passion Play (isomorphic to the Osirus/Dionysis/Mithras cults) as a pedagogical vehicle to convey deeper lessons. It wasn't to be taken as merely history, but rather to be an access point toward a deeper teaching -- and then applied to daily life.

So, indeed, the Christ values are being re-crucified daily. But the deep reading is that the resurrection is ongoing also. No faith required. This is an abstract allegory which offers practical daily values. See also Thich Nhat Hanh's "Jesus and Buddha as Brothers".

Sorry SHANTI, but I for one agree with those who don't like to read the posts which are all in Capital lettering. You post good opinions too and don't always YELL.

Even the Muslims believe that Jesus existed, though they consider him a mere mortal prophet.

If we can discuss the greatness of Tommy Douglas or Rosa Parks etc, we can discuss the merits of Mary's illegitimate son. Think of it, not only were Joseph and Mary not married when Mary conceived, Joseph wasn't there when it happened!

Anyone here see Jesus of Montreal?

And was there a ruler in Rome at one time who did not claim to be related to a God or Goddess?

Christ has a lot of qualities that one can admire - and none of them involve the slaughter of innocents.

Christ could have chosen to live, but at the expense of the ideology he was preaching and promoting. PP would rather discredit Christ than kill him - if it was a forced choice. Cheney is the same way.

xxxxx

KEM PATRICK says: 'Perhaps', the most important thng Jesus said was, "Believe in me and you shall be saved". That is all we must do to have an afterlife in Paradise or perhps even heaven.

What does it mean to believe in a person or have faith in them? What does it mean to be saved? And saved from what?

There were many people who believed in Howard Dean.

To have hope means to be saved from despair.

To have faith means to be safe from fear. Do not our leaders give us faith or courage when alone we may hesitate?

IWOAIRISH, SORRY YOU FEEL THAT WAY, BUT I FORGIVE YOU. LETS FORGET THE CACOPHONOUS, COMPUTER ETIQUETTE AND CONCENTRATE ON THE ISSUES. WHY IS THE QUIDDITY OF SYNTAX SO IMPORTANT TO YOU SINCE YOU DO NOT READ MY POSTS?

Any who believe Jesus Christ was not real, was not the only son of God, was not sent here by God to save mankind are wrong.

'Perhaps', the most important thng Jesus said was, "Believe in me and you shall be saved". That is all we must do to have an afterlife in Paradise or perhps even heaven.

One of the men dying on a cross alongside Jesus, asked Jesus to save him. Jesus replied, "By your FAITH, on this day you will be with me in Paradise".

I must agree with those who state the Bible is far from accurate in many areas of concern. Preachers often say things such as, "That word does not mean that, in the Greek it means, blah, blah, blah. I do personally believe, that the words which are written in the Bible and are attributed to the words of Christ, are totally accurate.

Churches and religeons are often for the money takers. Like Cindy, I don't need them. But do I have faith? Indeed I do, we'd better, for wthout it, we have little in this world to go on. Remember, Jesus said things such as, have faith, and come to me as a little child. The only way mankind had a chance to return to their original home, was for God to deliver his only son to take our sins upon himself and bleed for us, in order to defeat a very powerful Satan. Could I do that with my son? ___ I could not. God did, for he so loved the world.

Cindy, as usual, your article could have been written by me (wink). You handled the first question very well. If Jesus came back to Earth, Bush and Cheney would waterboard him then send him to Guantanamo.

Jesus wasn't only a liberal, he was a communist. Remember that multiplying of fish and bread story? Can you imagine Bush and Cheney having to deal with someone like that today?? They'd do everything in their power to assassinate him.

12roy "If Jesus were here today he'd be on Wall Street with a bullwhip."

No, He would have intercepted in the air-port as an illigal immigrant from the middle east who is trying to enter the States without a visa.

Having said that - I loved reading the article. Keep on the good work Cindy.

Cindy___You are a beacon for the rest of us to keep in our sights for guidance. What you have accomplished has taken a tremendous amount of bravery and perseverance, and you are to be commended for all of it. If we all had your drive and the steadfast belief of what our nation needs, some changes could be possible. It is sad that your Casey could not have still been here fighting for liberty and democracy in our own country instead of having to take part in such a misguided affair as Bush`s war on terror. As for the matter of faith, you are demonstrating the true way to show it without alienating others and causing derision of religious principles the way some hypocritical persons and groups are doing. I have also dropped my association with organized religion as they have lost their way by following self serving, power hungry leaders. Thank you for your efforts to get our country back on course!

There is a spirituality deeper than both the zoomorphic and anthropomorphic allegories.

KaneJeeves: How interesting that you would choose that scripture. That one floored me years ago. What he is saying by hate is love less. It makes perfect sense if you understand what he is really saying is if anyone loves anyone else more than me. Or if I'm not loved more by you than you love anyone or thing else. Then you are not worthy or capable of being my disciple.

quoted: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

Yaaaaa. I wonder - to hate your children and your own life [suicidal?] in order to be a JC disciple means that crowd would be a bunch of messed up people, and that is exactly who Jesus wanted as disciples. Easier to control perhaps... they will do his bidding, nothing to lose.

That is if Jesus was actually real:
I believe that Jesus is also a "created myth" just like god is; the Jesus myth was taken from old Egyptian myths of almost exactly the same stuff. Religions claim to be the one and only, and yet are all borrowed from previous religions or myths.

dougrambo - you are correct, I know many of the things he supposedly said, but certainly not all. I also know that I'm probably being generous, since anyone who has studied the history of the bible knows how it was pieced together by followers, many of whom put words into their prophets mouths for their own personal agenda (good or bad). (Did you know that the order of the gospels is incorrect, and that there was no person named "Matthew", "Mark", "Luke"? Check out Bart Ehrman et al.)

As a Humanist I try to select the best of what others have said and ignore the worst. For example, I wouldn't want my kids following this advice from Jesus: Luke 14:25,26 NIV. You as a Christian (I'm guessing) on the other hand are bound to follow this, or rationalize/interpret it away some how.

In your third-to-last paragraph you say: "like me now, nothing..." Yet, as "nothing," you are perfectly able to espouse the progressive issues which Jesus would clearly and surely advocate--listed one paragraph above. You are able to be a shining light to America and the world without being a "something." Marvelous! How is this possible? Considering how many "somethings" are marching with great faith and righteousness into the gathering darkness, its clear we could use many more "nothings" like you.

Kanejeeves: Obviously your are not well versed in what Jesus said. Jesus said," Will the son of man find faith when he returns?" Jesus was a big fan of faith.

radhumanist - much of what gets passed off as Jesus' words are very likely not words that he uttered at all. cf. Borg, Crossan, et al. and the Jesus Project. You were right to use the word "reportedly."

UN-common-dreams - I recently heard Christian fundamentalists referred to as "punishmentalists" which I believe is a very apt way of saying what rigid conservative so-called Christians really are.

Thank God or the Universe or whoever it is that you're thankful to, that Cindy is no punishmentalist, but right on target.

Thanks from me too Cindy,
I'm not a Christian either, but totally respect all that Christ said, - he was a great Teacher, a pure soul, - and I have been trying to make many of the points you've raised above for while now, both here on C-D, as well as elsewhere.

One of my hopes is that the *real and caring* U.S. Christians (not the loud-mouthed, bombastic bigots and ego-maniacs who are so often are heard in the media) finally get up to speed with what the vile Bush rats are all about, and then tip the scales firmly in support of the likes of Dennis Kucinich and your goodself, and well away from supporting menaces like the Repugs.

There's no doubt at all that Christ was a revolutionary, and also that if he popped up today, the ludicrous (pretend) Christians would seek to besmirch, betray ~ and then slaughter him.

As to someone talking about "peace fairies" ... Ha!
I like that!
Hey, if you were stuck in an elevator, or on a desert island with someone, who would you choose, if the choice were between a caring and thoughtful 'Peace Fairy', ~ or a belligerent, war-mongering dullard for your long-term companion?

~ No contest: Peace Fairies win every time! :)

Thanks, terryb and KanesJeeves, for injecting some humanism into the discussion. Cindy is awesome, and much of what Jesus reportedly said and did is awesome, but some of his actions and comments were not beneficial or benevolent. For instance, he obviously believed in hell, eternal punishment that makes even Bush's torture seem like a picnic by comparison. And for what would Jesus condemn a person to hell? For not having faith in him (faith defined as believing things for which there is insufficient evidence)--in other words, thought crimes. Shades of 1984 and Bush's America. Then there's that comment about not being able to be his disciple unless you hate your mother and father, and that little episode in which he casts demons out of a man and sends them into innocent pigs, which then run off a cliff to their deaths. Such passages make him seem less like a peacenik and more like someone the destructive right can co-opt. That's why I think Jesus should be treated like a human being and not like a supernatural being worthy of worship. Admire the wise and wonderful things he did and said--and there are many--but reject the cruel and narrow-minded things he said, same as you would for any figure from history.

William James: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for everybody, to believe things on insufficient evidence."

Then there is always Plato's discourse with Glaucon about the cave...

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/platoscave.html

Cindy may not currently claim to be a follower of Christ, but with that answer she sure is an ally of the historical Jesus. I'm proud of her.

Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

hey you bay area people , find your way out of the messy oil slicks that`s trapped around your area and ask what kind of world you want to live in and realize that the bay area has always been a hotbed for change and revolution....come on now, talk to your friends and lets start to get the ball moving and get cindy sheehan to replace pelosi . Can you imagine what that two week overlap will be like with cindy in and bush on his way out and finally , cindy with a chance to have a few words face to face with him...i`m tingling all over.

Cindy, this sounds an awful lot like Bill Blaikie talking about the Social Gospel.

Canada and the Social Gospel

http://www.billblaikie.ca/node/384

Yes, Jesus was a Social Democrat.

Daniel David says: A lot of people are raised in a church, then leave it, then become disenchanted, critical, even loudly atheist. Not so Cindy.

Nor so James Loney.

Do you remember back a few years ago when Harmeet Singh Sooden, Norman Kember, Tom Fox and James Loney from Christian Peacemakers were captured in Iraq? Sadly Tom Fox was murdered, but the other three were set free.

Well James Loney was scheduled to speak at a social justice conference sponsored by the Catholic Church on the topic of "peace and justice", but the schedule has been changed. The irony is that James Loney is himself Catholic and had once considered the Priesthood until falling in love at age 16 and discovering other means of doing God's work - such as through Christian Peacemakers.

Seems that the church had nothing against James Loney until some right wing group contacted the church and said that they would protest if he spoke. James Loney's crime - being in a committed relationship:

http://thomhartmann.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4851097651/m/6891019582?r=647...

The term 'Christian' was not even coined until the days of Paul, about 3 decades after Jesus walked the earth a man.

Jesus was NEVER a Christian, but he was a social, justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up [intifada in Arabic] and challenged the job security of the Temple authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God already LOVED them just as they were:

Sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.

What got Jesus crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces of his time, by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant !

The early followers and lovers of Jesus were called members of THE WAY-being THE WAY he taught one should be;

Nonviolent, a Peacemaker and one who did the will of the Father.

The Hebrew prophet Micah summed that up best:

"What does God require? He has told you o'man! Be just, be merciful, and walk humbly with your Lord." -Micah 6:8

Jesus remained NONVIOLENT and forgiving even while being mocked, whipped and nailed to a cross and he promised that it is the Peacemakers who are the children of God, not the peace-talkers.

2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning.

When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."

He was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any others who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.

100 years before Jesus walked the earth a man, Rabbi Hillel knew that the Hebrew understanding of Hokema; Holy Wisdom; The Feminine Divinity

Was the same as the Greek understanding of The Logos: The Word.

It was the first John and Paul who understood,

The Word was good and The Word was The Logos and The Word was Jesus.

It was John Lennon on 'Rubber Soul' who intuitively knew:

"The Word is just The Way and The Word is Love."

So, with a little imagination, an open heart and mind, one could see that before Jesus ever walked the earth a man;

He was already a SHE!

Hokema, Holy Wisdom; the Feminine Divinity

Now, isn't that good news?

Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor
Http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu."