Sorry folks, but you sound like a bunch of watered down fundamentalists, with all the Faith and Church talk. As so many have noted here, Jesus said many wonderful things, that I as a Secular Humanist can completely agree with. BUT, when you add "faith" and "shining the light of Christ" and so on into the mix you quickly morph into the Fundies you dislike so much. That's because on those terms (faith, etc.) you're only different from them in degree, and not in kind. They'll out-faith you, out-scripture you, and out-Bible you every time. But with evidence, reason, and compassion we'll win in the long run.

You need to keep all the positive sentiments and beliefs and drop all the religious overhead. Similary for atheists: don't be afraid to consider what Jesus and others have said. Personally, I think if Jesus came back he say "stop looking up, stop having all this so called faith, and start using the tools you have...the ones between your ears."

Thank you Cindy.
And for all the CD posters who will follow I say this: there is a mighty wind blowing and unless you are part of the whirlwind, you´ll be blown away with all the other detritus that allows for war and imperialism to reign in the name of "democracy."

We have a remarkable chance to upturn the tables by putting Cindy in Congress which would send such a powerful message that the momentum would grow. Oh, they´d attack her from day one, marginalize her from committess (and of course you know I mean the Dems)and ostracize her daily, then 2 years from now the millions of hypocritical dollars will pour in to defeat her and declare her a "fluke." But I´ll tell you this: defeat Nancy Pelosi and the message will begin to seep through those hardened Dem skulls that we will tolerate no more war. That message will be heard loud and clear around the US and inspire many others to challenge the Dems who refuse to read the writing on the wall.

Sure, it´d be a symbolic victory but one symbolic victory like that, and the voices of millions will be "on the table" again. Vote Cindy Sheehan for Congress and let the revolution begin!

Those who worship believe that the Devil is a trickster and beguiler. Truly, the Devil is loose in the world today.
There are so many words from so many different people and the Devil is an expert at trickery. How are you supposed to know which words are right? How can I find my way through the maze of deceit?
Know your savior. Know what His words are.
My savior's words are about Peace, Love, Forgiveness, Mercy, Compassion, Understanding, and Tolerance. My savior wouldn't torture anyone. He wouldn't bomb anyone.
Listen to the right words and the Yellow Brick Road will take you straight through the maze.

You are spot on, Cindy, he would embrace non-whites and those other groups marginalized today. After all, he was non-white himself and possessed dark eyes just like the contemporary residents of Israel and Palestine. Would he have been called a 'reghead' by American troops?

'My question for the questioner was: "How do you reconcile your faith with supporting war and killing?" '

Ms Sheehan did exactly that, since her son went off to do exactly that, in a country and to a people, who threatened no one. Where the US and UK., via sanctions, had already killed over a million people of 'embargo related causes'. The majority the new born, under fives and the sick. Wickednesses do not come greater than those who subsequently invaded and their supporters.Nuremberg's 'supreme international crime', a war of agression.

'Thou shalt not kill', Exodus 20-13, is not negotiable.

Nodozejoze, I love that image of a "mighty wind blowing". I have definitely signed off from "corporate organized religion" and "corporate organized politics" (and yes I also mean the dems). But, I have definitely signed up with Cindy, and people like her.

Here is a clip of another inspirational person, Van Jones. I like that he acknowledges the huge problems we're facing but still feels it's not too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoCVP7sRq_8

Keep your spirits up folks!

Thank you for your courage, Cindy.

Here's a short answer to that first question, thanks to Kurt Vonnegut -

"How do you reconcile your progressive ideals with your faith?"
"With the Sermon on the Mount!"

Too bad Diane Feinstein was just re-elected. Cindy should take her place in the Senate. I'm so disappointed in Diane, there are some moral values Democrats or Republicans should not support. The right to Torture is not one of them.
1. We lose all moral authority
2. It does not work, the tortured will say anything to get it to stop

nodozejoze...spot on.
"We have a remarkable opportunity to upturn the tables by putting Cindy in Congress..."
How true! Imagine the headlines: Pelosi Ousted...Speaker of the House loses to political Novice Sheehan. Film at 11.
That would shake things up!!!
To the forces of darkness: You have sowed the wind and now you will reap our whirlwind.

YOU USE THE OPPOSITE TO DESTROY WAR. IF YOU WANT TO MELT ICE, YOU APPLY HEAT; TO DESTROY SICKNESS, YOU APPLY HEALTH; TO DESTROY VIOLENCE, YOU APPLY NON-VIOLENCE ECT. HAVING SAID THAT I AM NOT A PACIFIST AND ONE HAS AN OBLIGATION TO SUPPORT THEIR COUNTRY MILITARILY IF IT IS BEING ATTACKED.THE U.S. IS BEING ATTACKED ALRIGHT: FROM WITHIN, BECAUSE OF THE OBESIANCE OF OUR LEADERS TO CORPORATE POWER AND MONEY. WE ALL HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO THE TRUE PATRIOTIC AMERICANS LIKE CINDY.

If Jesus were here today he'd be on Wall Street with a bullwhip.

Shanti -

It's obvious that you feel strongly about your beliefs because, in the etiquette of computers, you are always YELLING (by using capital letters). Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what you feel passionate about because I don't read your posts. I don't like to be yelled at.

Be assured that all of us who post here feel strongly. And your comments deserve to be read. I know you didn't ask for any advice, but your posts are more likely to get read if you don't shout at us through your capitalization.

Thanks for observing good on-line computer etiquette.

Everyone should listen to this talk show that aired yesterday on local NPR station to hear some very scary views held by these folks - especially Boswell and Land (the call-ins were just as scary):

Thu, Nov 8, 2007 -- 9:00 AM
Thehttp://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R711080900

Christian Right and the '08 Election

With Pat Robertson coming out in support of Rudy Giuliani yesterday, the show looks at candidates' efforts to woo Christian conservatives. Has the Christian right's clout in national politics diminished?
Host: Michael Krasny
Guests:
Charles Boswell, senior pastor at Immanuel Baptist Church in Wichita, Kansas.
David D. Kirkpatrick, Washington correspondent for the New York Times
Matthew Continetti, associate editor of the Weekly Standard
Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention and author of "The Divided States of America?"

I was raised a Catholic and still consider myself one and I agree with your assessment about the lack of Biblical knowledge within the "faith". Its frustrating to me that those who are Catholic believe they are obligated to go to church but not obligated to read The Word. This is exacerbated by the Catholic institution who, like all institutions, feel a need to enforce their authority.

I think its very important to differentiate Catholic faith and the Catholic institution. Please look up the Nicene Creed, for there are thousands that look to this as their faith and who disagree with many of the Catholic institution doctrines handed down as "infalable".

Institutions are inherently hypocritical and you can find hypocrites and parasites in every group of human beings. Faith is something that transcends this and the Lord searches out hearts, intentions and deeds.

All who claim to be Christian should remember this quote from The Bible... "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God."... Matthew 5:9

This morning on Democracy Now Amy Goodman interviewed Howard Zinn. In answering a question about Representative John Conyers and whether John will support the impeachment resolution before his House Judiciary Committee or support Ms. Pelosi and her refusing to call for or even support impeachment of Cheney and Bush, Zinn stated that Conyers "has shown signs" in the past of being "a true progressive" and hoped he would support impeachment.

Well, is there any doubt about whether Cindy is a true progressive? Not in my mind. She will represent us well. But we need to get her into Congress.

How important is Cindy and her candidacy?

Howard Zinn said in the interview this morning that:

"I'm so happy that there in New York the Culture Project is putting on stage actors who will read the words of historic figures Frederick Douglass, Malcolm X, Cindy Sheehan—people who are not going to be heard in the mainstream press or in the mainstream history books, but whose words are so vital and so pertinent to what we face today."

So says our leading progressive historian.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/09/1455254

Again and again, Cindy keeps proving she is a true progressive, including with this superb article.

Together with Cindy, we can history. She needs our help. We need her help.

Zinn says that our job is "to speak loudly, to speak boldly, to tell the truth." Cindy does that in this article and always.

Cindy's campaign against House Majority Leader Pelosi needs the help of true progressives whether by voting or supporting her campaign from afar. We can rock the nation by firing Rep. Pelosi, *and getting" a true progressive voice in the Congress--a voice that will rise up along with Barbara Lee, Lynn Woolsey, Diane Watson, Dennis Kucinich, John Lewis, and many other true progressives in the House of Representatives. Let's grow our movement! Thanks Cindy!

www.cindyforcongress.com

Thank you iowairish. I've been skipping Shanti's comments too for the same reason - her/his caps offend my eyes, and it does feel like being yelled at.

Excatly Cindy...but Jesus wasn't white btw. So I can't imagine he would have had any problems with non whites

If Christ were here he'd be a fan of Cindy to be sure!

And acknowledge that for good or ill we are all the siblings of God.

And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree,
there will be an answer, let it be.

In Luke 9:58 Jesus says "And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." In other words, Jesus was homeless.

If he was around today, Jesus would probably be the same: homeless, persecuted for his views, rejected and scorned by the majority of the population. It would be highly unlikely that, living today, Jesus would obtain any recognition for what he SAID because he'd be getting so much flack for what he WAS, a homeless prophet challenging the political status quo, a radical challenging the conventional paradigms of life. He'd be perceived as mad, scary, a threat to all good citizens.

I sometimes wonder how many of those who claim his endorsement would follow him if he was here today.

I heard someone say, and I apologize for not know who, that if Jesus came back today preaching his radical message THE CHRISTIANS WOULD CRUCIFY him.

And to the person who said I "sent my son to war," I did nothing of the kind.
I begged Casey not to go. Casey went to protect his buddies and some are alive because of his bravery...what were any of them doing there anyway?

I am in the big airport in Houston and I saw a family joyfully greet their soldier back from Iraq. I remember picking up Casey at the United Airlines Loading dock where he was encased in a cardboard box.

Casey told everyone he could never kill anyone before he left. Maybe that's why he was killed 5 days after he got there.

It is too tragic.

Love---and thanks for the support!
Cindy

scorned here at common dreams? perhaps by some.

O ye of little faith?

"for who ever heard of a gold-finder that had the impudence or folly to assert, from the ill success of his search, that there was no such thing as gold in the world? whereas the truth-finder, having raked out that jakes, his own mind, and being there capable of tracing no ray of divinity, nor anything virtuous or good, or lovely, or loving, very fairly, honestly, and logically concludes that no such things exist in the whole creation."

Henry Fielding, Tom Jones

Blessings Cindy. Your commitment to Truth, Justice and Compassion are an inspiration to us all. I have little resources to contribute but I ask the Universe continually to get behind your bid in Pelosi's district. Be clear about your vision and the Universe will support you fully. No doubt about your clarity and your intent. My best to you!

I'd call the dems and reps different factions within the Roman Empire and the Pharisees folks like Robertson, Dobson, and ex-Fallwell.

But the truth is more that we're all the Roman Empire. We are all, at least, supposed to be part of this government.

Jesus' focus was much more on the inner self. Becoming a better person. He was no Gandhi that stood up to the occupiers, but true, he did rebuke the Pharisees. That was due to the way they had perverted man's spiritual perception of righteousness from mercy and compassion, to laws and moral condemnation, which was well documented by his healing on the Sabbath and being condemned for breaking the law of the Sabbath, and cohorting with sinners. I have no idea how much history is really there in these stories, but whoever wrote them did so with a heart of compassion, and one that focuses on the higher being of the self and those around us, over this mad world.

I happen to believe in a balance of the two. I know I can't change the world but I can try to help. I put being a better person first, but living in a democracy, I know that the suffering of others in a macro sense is also partially my responsibility. It's quite a tightrope. Unfortunately Jesus never gave any advice for living in a democracy.

Regarding your point on how Christians have been deluded away from there basic tenants, as has been said here many many times, it is truly amazing that so many can be so much the antithesis of what they actually claim to believe in. In my twenties, I looked to the future with optimism that someday we would be more like Europe, but we seem to be, from 2000 to the present, have become more like what we were like in the 19th Century.

Cindy,
True faith does not exist anymore. It is all greed and hypocrisy and some naive and blind followers. In a country where the so-called 'reverend preacher' Pat Robertson calls for assassination of a truly elected ( not court-appointed like george the cheater ) and honest leader of a sovereign nation- Chavez of Vanezuela-and endorses a massmurderer like Giuliani, you can not say that there persists a shred of Christianity the way Jesus wanted it to be. Jesus Christ is a Christmas toy merchants at Wallmart and Toys-R-Us, and a savior for Big Business only.
Sorry to say that, but you are the sole reliable savior at hand and available today. So, help us please, Cindy. You are inspired and endorsed by God. This much we take for granted. God bless you

Now you are talking Cindy.

God bless you.

I am calling for true Christian soldiers to stand up. We were warned that the most unethical of people, satan himself, would work through the church. The inquity worked through the church of his day and it is in this day too. If you are not for Jesus, if you are not for peace, if you are not for goodwill for ALL mankind, if you are not willing to stand up for what he taught, then you are not Christians. You are anti-Christs. What worse way than to take the name of the Lord to actually act against what he taught.

Jesus said that if you would not stand up for his name, his teaching, he would not stand up for you!

And you can bet he meant it!

You people that abuse the name Christian. You have a choice now. It is before you now and can't deny it, you can't erase it. Your actions from here on out will determine your future. Either stand up or spend eternity gnashing your teeth.

Certainly, you may remain quiet to avoid getting involved, but you know in your hearts that this will certainly condemn you. Christ was very explicit, such avoidance would condemn you.

You either stand up for what Christ taught, or you will be condmened by his words (not mine). This is the final judgement of these days. This is your final chance.

I had heart failure last year. And a couple near death experiences. And I will tell you what, when we stand in judgement, it is not to defend ourselves. We have already been judged. It is a done deal. And to give our case is an act of selfishness and desperation only demonstrates how unworthy we truly are. Rather our time before the Lord is to give testament to those who have done right before us, and for us, in this world. And when I leave, as I surely will soon, regardless of if I go to hell or to Heaven, I will stand in judgement of Cindy. I will praise here name before my judge and savior. And rather than ask for my salvation, I will ask for hers instead.

God bless you Cindy.

I do not go to church either. I am a cowboy Christian. I learned long ago the fallacy and corruption of today's orthodox christianity. Read the poem "The Cowboy Christian" by Badger Clark (it is on the Interent) and you will know what it means to be both a real cowboy and a real Christian.

And Cindy, you are one of those know. And by God, and his son Jesus Christ, I will speak on behalf of you and the good works you have done these days.

In Jesus Christ,

Bleesed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.

Ken Boettger
Ellensburg, WA

"Peace on Earth, Goodwill toward men."

Thank you Cindy Sheehan for you leadership. If you win your seat in Congress, America will instantly become a better place.

The question Cindy was asked was "How do you reconcile your progressive ideals with your faith?"
Her answer was "How do you reconcile your faith with supporting war and killing?"

Am I the only one to notice that Ms. Sheehan's response was assumptive? I wasn't in the room, but it seems Cindy gets crunchy a little to quickly. To me the question didn't sound like a challenge. Sounded more like "how can you articulate progressive politics into Christianity as opposed to conservative politics?" Seems Cindy feels defensive.

the problem with bringing your christian religion into all this, is that it excludes a lot of those that do not subscribe to your god. all the things that cindy talks about, are not exclusive to your beliefs. they are common sense tenets of humanity and compassion. these are qualitys that belong to all good people, whether you believe or not. to all of you religious people, please accept the fact, that there are many paths to humanity. believe what you like, as long as it is not detrimental to others.

Of course Jesus Christ taught us to love each other; of course he sat amongst the prostitutes and beggars and sinners. Does loving and forgiving a sinner make a sin not a sin? I am at times quick to anger, therefore since Jesus still loves me I should not try to control that anger and work on self improvement? Christians are COMPELLED to love homosexuals, just as we are compelled to love liars and thieves. We are not compelled to be hypocrites and say lying and stealing is ok just because some people feel a compulsion to do so.

Friday,Nov.9
I will shortly reach my 65th birthday. 62 years of this time I spent as a committed Catholic--20 plus years of Catholic education, 20 years of teaching in Catholic schools, a member of many Catholic groups, and a mother of five children (all raised Catholic). The Jesuits were my touchstone--still are. My husband and I and hundreds of our Catholic friends no longer recognize what our former church has become since they've joined hands with the Bush Mafia. Similarly, so many of us no longer recognize our beloved country. Cindy beautifully described the Catholic faith still taught by many Jesuits and held in the hearts and minds of millions. We have recently been moved to Alabama and my experience with the Catholic Church here in the South is more like a Pat Robertson/Southern Baptist experience--minus some of its more radical elements. Texas may be the same. The Bishops now SHOUT "No abortion," while WHISPERING, "Help the least among us" and "No to War"(Sadly, many of them rushed to label it a "Just War" for three years or so). So many of us LOVE Cindy, agree with everything she's done, and respect her more than anyone in Congress (save Dennis Kucinich and a handful of others). Keep holding up our flag, Cindy. Many of us, even in Alabama, are 100% behind you and are working our tushes off to change things. Yay, Cindy!! PS I've ALSO lost a child, and can only imagine losing a child in this debacle called Iraq. Thus, I totally understand your motivation in becoming an activist--what worse can happen after losing a child?

As I finish up Jim Wallis' God And Politics I have to encourage Sheehan's move to a language integrative of a faith basis, as winning over segments of the faith community will be very important for building the mass Citizen movement needed for impeachment.

However, I don't think Jesus would be so tepid on a return on this particular day to begin by addressing "single pay insurance" and then proceed to "solar and wind energy".

No, it's my belief that Jesus would turn the tables with what Frederick Douglas called for in times like these - Thunder claps! and Whirlwinds! - shining the light of Christ on the women and children and sons and daughters - the victims - of air raid missiles, suicide bombers, sniper bullets and IEDs.

And Jesus would most assuredly be lifting and shining the light of Christ on the "depleted" uranium intoxicated babies while stating once again, "What you do to the least of these you do to me!"

And yes he would do it with love. Love for what our enemies have awoken in us, love of the gratitude for living during this time of global consciousness and transformation, love for the American Spirit: love for the greatest act of human democracy in the history of humanity - love of and expressed through impeachment!

Thank you Cindy for being you.

Couldn't think of a better place to post this timely interview with Dennis Kucinich from today's "Democracy Now":

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18695.htm

A lot of people are raised in a church, then leave it, then become disenchanted, critical, even loudly atheist.
Not so Cindy. Even with all she's been through, there is not anything in her article disparaging of the real Jesus Christ, or of real faith in Him, --only an apparent frustration on her part that more of us don't actually bother to learn what he really taught and try to follow it.

She has dropped out of the Protestant church experience and has dropped out of the Catholic experience. But I don't think she has dropped her faith in Christ (the single thing needed for her eternal salvation, according to the simple words of that same Jesus)) and I don't think she is ever going to. That's good (for her, and for us who read her writings.)

These people (war christians) are so far from the spirit of Jesus that's its ridiculous. The reason their minds are dark is that they don't have the essential ingredient which makes you see correctly and understand the teachings ..namely LOVE!!. Well this is the Kali Yuga, the age of Darkness and Materiality where Dharma (righteousness) stands on one leg so it doesn't suprise me. In this age, up is down, right is wrong, and black is white. Hypocracy is the norm. For those who don't know the Kali Yuga is the last age in the Hindu cosmic cycle of 4 ages. Golden, Silver Bronze and Iron. This is the Iron age. Peace is coming though so stay hopeful and bright!!

The term 'Christian' was not even coined until the days of Paul, about 3 decades after Jesus walked the earth a man.

Jesus was NEVER a Christian, but he was a social, justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up [intifada in Arabic] and challenged the job security of the Temple authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God already LOVED them just as they were:

Sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.

What got Jesus crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces of his time, by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant !

The early followers and lovers of Jesus were called members of THE WAY-being THE WAY he taught one should be;

Nonviolent, a Peacemaker and one who did the will of the Father.

The Hebrew prophet Micah summed that up best:

"What does God require? He has told you o'man! Be just, be merciful, and walk humbly with your Lord." -Micah 6:8

Jesus remained NONVIOLENT and forgiving even while being mocked, whipped and nailed to a cross and he promised that it is the Peacemakers who are the children of God, not the peace-talkers.

2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning.

When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."

He was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any others who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.

100 years before Jesus walked the earth a man, Rabbi Hillel knew that the Hebrew understanding of Hokema; Holy Wisdom; The Feminine Divinity

Was the same as the Greek understanding of The Logos: The Word.

It was the first John and Paul who understood,

The Word was good and The Word was The Logos and The Word was Jesus.

It was John Lennon on 'Rubber Soul' who intuitively knew:

"The Word is just The Way and The Word is Love."

So, with a little imagination, an open heart and mind, one could see that before Jesus ever walked the earth a man;

He was already a SHE!

Hokema, Holy Wisdom; the Feminine Divinity

Now, isn't that good news?

Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor
Http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu."

Cindy, this sounds an awful lot like Bill Blaikie talking about the Social Gospel.

Canada and the Social Gospel

http://www.billblaikie.ca/node/384

Yes, Jesus was a Social Democrat.

Daniel David says: A lot of people are raised in a church, then leave it, then become disenchanted, critical, even loudly atheist. Not so Cindy.

Nor so James Loney.

Do you remember back a few years ago when Harmeet Singh Sooden, Norman Kember, Tom Fox and James Loney from Christian Peacemakers were captured in Iraq? Sadly Tom Fox was murdered, but the other three were set free.

Well James Loney was scheduled to speak at a social justice conference sponsored by the Catholic Church on the topic of "peace and justice", but the schedule has been changed. The irony is that James Loney is himself Catholic and had once considered the Priesthood until falling in love at age 16 and discovering other means of doing God's work - such as through Christian Peacemakers.

Seems that the church had nothing against James Loney until some right wing group contacted the church and said that they would protest if he spoke. James Loney's crime - being in a committed relationship:

http://thomhartmann.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4851097651/m/6891019582?r=6471043682#6471043682

hey you bay area people , find your way out of the messy oil slicks that`s trapped around your area and ask what kind of world you want to live in and realize that the bay area has always been a hotbed for change and revolution....come on now, talk to your friends and lets start to get the ball moving and get cindy sheehan to replace pelosi . Can you imagine what that two week overlap will be like with cindy in and bush on his way out and finally , cindy with a chance to have a few words face to face with him...i`m tingling all over.

Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Cindy may not currently claim to be a follower of Christ, but with that answer she sure is an ally of the historical Jesus. I'm proud of her.

Then there is always Plato's discourse with Glaucon about the cave...

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/platoscave.html

Thanks, terryb and KanesJeeves, for injecting some humanism into the discussion. Cindy is awesome, and much of what Jesus reportedly said and did is awesome, but some of his actions and comments were not beneficial or benevolent. For instance, he obviously believed in hell, eternal punishment that makes even Bush's torture seem like a picnic by comparison. And for what would Jesus condemn a person to hell? For not having faith in him (faith defined as believing things for which there is insufficient evidence)--in other words, thought crimes. Shades of 1984 and Bush's America. Then there's that comment about not being able to be his disciple unless you hate your mother and father, and that little episode in which he casts demons out of a man and sends them into innocent pigs, which then run off a cliff to their deaths. Such passages make him seem less like a peacenik and more like someone the destructive right can co-opt. That's why I think Jesus should be treated like a human being and not like a supernatural being worthy of worship. Admire the wise and wonderful things he did and said--and there are many--but reject the cruel and narrow-minded things he said, same as you would for any figure from history.

William James: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for everybody, to believe things on insufficient evidence."

Thanks from me too Cindy,
I'm not a Christian either, but totally respect all that Christ said, - he was a great Teacher, a pure soul, - and I have been trying to make many of the points you've raised above for while now, both here on C-D, as well as elsewhere.

One of my hopes is that the *real and caring* U.S. Christians (not the loud-mouthed, bombastic bigots and ego-maniacs who are so often are heard in the media) finally get up to speed with what the vile Bush rats are all about, and then tip the scales firmly in support of the likes of Dennis Kucinich and your goodself, and well away from supporting menaces like the Repugs.

There's no doubt at all that Christ was a revolutionary, and also that if he popped up today, the ludicrous (pretend) Christians would seek to besmirch, betray ~ and then slaughter him.

As to someone talking about "peace fairies" ... Ha!
I like that!
Hey, if you were stuck in an elevator, or on a desert island with someone, who would you choose, if the choice were between a caring and thoughtful 'Peace Fairy', ~ or a belligerent, war-mongering dullard for your long-term companion?

~ No contest: Peace Fairies win every time! :)

radhumanist - much of what gets passed off as Jesus' words are very likely not words that he uttered at all. cf. Borg, Crossan, et al. and the Jesus Project. You were right to use the word "reportedly."

UN-common-dreams - I recently heard Christian fundamentalists referred to as "punishmentalists" which I believe is a very apt way of saying what rigid conservative so-called Christians really are.

Thank God or the Universe or whoever it is that you're thankful to, that Cindy is no punishmentalist, but right on target.

Kanejeeves: Obviously your are not well versed in what Jesus said. Jesus said," Will the son of man find faith when he returns?" Jesus was a big fan of faith.

In your third-to-last paragraph you say: "like me now, nothing..." Yet, as "nothing," you are perfectly able to espouse the progressive issues which Jesus would clearly and surely advocate--listed one paragraph above. You are able to be a shining light to America and the world without being a "something." Marvelous! How is this possible? Considering how many "somethings" are marching with great faith and righteousness into the gathering darkness, its clear we could use many more "nothings" like you.

dougrambo - you are correct, I know many of the things he supposedly said, but certainly not all. I also know that I'm probably being generous, since anyone who has studied the history of the bible knows how it was pieced together by followers, many of whom put words into their prophets mouths for their own personal agenda (good or bad). (Did you know that the order of the gospels is incorrect, and that there was no person named "Matthew", "Mark", "Luke"? Check out Bart Ehrman et al.)

As a Humanist I try to select the best of what others have said and ignore the worst. For example, I wouldn't want my kids following this advice from Jesus: Luke 14:25,26 NIV. You as a Christian (I'm guessing) on the other hand are bound to follow this, or rationalize/interpret it away some how.

quoted: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

Yaaaaa. I wonder - to hate your children and your own life [suicidal?] in order to be a JC disciple means that crowd would be a bunch of messed up people, and that is exactly who Jesus wanted as disciples. Easier to control perhaps... they will do his bidding, nothing to lose.

That is if Jesus was actually real:
I believe that Jesus is also a "created myth" just like god is; the Jesus myth was taken from old Egyptian myths of almost exactly the same stuff. Religions claim to be the one and only, and yet are all borrowed from previous religions or myths.

KaneJeeves: How interesting that you would choose that scripture. That one floored me years ago. What he is saying by hate is love less. It makes perfect sense if you understand what he is really saying is if anyone loves anyone else more than me. Or if I'm not loved more by you than you love anyone or thing else. Then you are not worthy or capable of being my disciple.

There is a spirituality deeper than both the zoomorphic and anthropomorphic allegories.

Cindy___You are a beacon for the rest of us to keep in our sights for guidance. What you have accomplished has taken a tremendous amount of bravery and perseverance, and you are to be commended for all of it. If we all had your drive and the steadfast belief of what our nation needs, some changes could be possible. It is sad that your Casey could not have still been here fighting for liberty and democracy in our own country instead of having to take part in such a misguided affair as Bush`s war on terror. As for the matter of faith, you are demonstrating the true way to show it without alienating others and causing derision of religious principles the way some hypocritical persons and groups are doing. I have also dropped my association with organized religion as they have lost their way by following self serving, power hungry leaders. Thank you for your efforts to get our country back on course!