So the GOP's new face to love is that of Rootie, a bare knuckles, "streets of New Yorker", who seems devout of compassion or love or wisdom or an ounce of respect for decency.

And in national polls, that I heard of this morning, he is even with Hillary for the presidency.

Why have we become a nation of hate?

Are we that insecure, that afraid, that paranoid, that this ghoul would appear as a front running presidential contender?

Apparently so.

Only a weeks or so after September 11, 2001, I heard Alan Dershowitz on TV saying as how it would be fine with him if you took some of the "enemy" and stuck shards under their fingernails. I did a double take, what!?? Did I hear him say that torture is now going to be OK?

Now, that seems like innocent times, does it not?
However, in typical American fashion, everyone in the discussion gloms onto one fragment of an issue ( allbeit an important one ) such as waterboarding, and the entire much wider view of the crisis goes unmentioned. Tragic.

It's rather a disgusting thought that advocates of a GOP worldview might seek to focus an American election around the issue of which candidate declares himself to have "guts" enough to order torture, and which one would appoint Supreme Court justices who also agree to that. But that may be exactly where we're heading. And, bear in mind, it will be the economic conservatives taking you there because they'd rather talk about security than defend against our obvious (to everyone) need for tax increases at the high end to reverse the Bush deficits.

And it will always be under the hypothetical of "Let's say we have this guy in custody, who we KNOW has the details of the next terror attack. Would Hillary have the "guts" to protect you by ordering the "proper" interrogations? Noooooooo, she'll coddle 'em, blah, blah, blah."

The challenge to Democrats is to bury this litmus test under the 99 (at least) other good reasons for not electing another Republican president.

As for abortion being "replaced" as an issue? Hardly.
The true pro-lifers are still there, in force. Abortion will still be worked most vigorously, telling folks that Giuliani's personal opinion on abortion doesn't matter because HE HAS PROMISED TO APPOINT EXACTLY THE STRICT CONSTRUCTIONISTS THAT SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES WANT (but the bad, bad bad, Hillary won't.)

"Are we that insecure, that afraid, that paranoid, that this ghoul would appear as a front running presidential contender?

Apparently so."

Frightening, isn't it? Has the American citizenry lost all its sense of decency and compassion? Have we, as a nation, become the home of the fearful, and not of the brave? Do we cringe at what may await us around every corner -- real or imagined? I'm not sure. It would seem so. But, sometimes I wonder if we're being led down this path, by a ruthless media that wants us to believe that the race has already been run, and that the race has already been won.

Let's wait and see what the people of Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina have to say in January and early February. They just may have a say as to the frontrunners are.

No American allows or endorses torture under any circumstance. No American turns their back on the Constitution regardless of the circumstances.
Therefore, anyone who thinks torture is OK under any condition is a traitor. Anyone who would violate someone's Constitutional rights through torture is also a traitor.

Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

"Or would we rather bring back the methods of the Spanish Inquisition?"

According to the box office numbers, "we" love torture! "Saw IV," over $50,000,000 domestic so far! The 4 part torturetainment franchise has grossed nearly $300,000,000. And at least three more, er, episodes are planned!

"Hostel, I & II" - just under $50,000,000.

Cheneybush and his cult of greed and sadism are just giving their audience what it wants - a torturetainment reality show, basically. Sponsored by GE, Blackwater and the American Enterprise Institute.

Chicago -

The whole "war on terror" plays into the hands of the monsters who want to control the meek. And for the most part, our society has become a feminizing, frightened, coddled, soft, over-lawyered, "protect our kids" bunch of dillusional, sense of entitlement, cry babies.

Gone is the independent, pioneer spirit that faced any danger, fought any foe, willingly, in defense of liberty and freedom.

Now, we taser people because they wiggle around some when on the floor with three cops with their knees in our backs.

We torture people because we lack the pursuasive ability to communicate with them through reason.

We attack people because they "might" have weapons of mass destruction.

Shoot first, ask questions later, but its OK, because its all for protecting our -way of life-.

Lorax said it, as did Ben Franklin.

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security - deserve neither."

I think the author is too optimistic to suggest that torture is a litmus test, from the Democrats' point of view. As with most issues, torture is just not something Dems in the Congressional leadership will go to the mat for. Mukasey's on his way to full confirmation; Dems cave again.

Some litmus test.

In the name of God, the All Merciful, the Mercy-giving

In my speech class I took a survey on what the class thought of torture:
when asked, 58 % of the class gave me a scenario in which they thought torture would be morally justifiable.

74%, however, said it was wrong for Americans to be tortured.

74% also said that, as citizens, they SHOULD NOT try to do anything to stop government sanctioned torture.

And I attend a typical American college....

History demonstrates that torture has never been necessary to defend democracy.

Torture has always been necessary to dominate a rebellious empire.

'nuff said.

Little85

And your survey indicates why the generation being educated now, does not have any fight in them; Will roll over and give up your liberties, look the other way when their companions are thrown in paddy wagons, and just go back to surfing the Internet, listening to their Ipods, and dreaming of landing that big job once you get out of school.

I hope you are an exception to this picture.

If I were a foreign or insurgent leader holding American captives, I would announce a policy of treating them with the same standard of humanity set by America itself at Guantanomo and Abu Ghraib. That's what all these superdupergousasupportthetroops patriots are setting our people up for. Not that they really care. They can't see beyond their lust for empire and one-man rule.

littlem85, thanks for the statistics. Of course I don't know the methodology used in your survey, nor your sample size along with other factors, but nevertheless I'm concerned with the responses that you cited. Like jjpeter's comment ahead of mine, the acceptance by your peers to the government's use of sanctioned torture really sent shudders down my spine. I recognize the reality of a "generation gap" on many issues, but this one floored me.

I have a daughter the same age as you, attending college, and we talk about political and social issues on a regular basis (when she's home from school). I've instilled in her a thirst for truth and justice, so like her dad she's very progressive in her thought, along with being politically active. The reason I tell you this is because she has told me that people her age aren't as socially aware and politically astute as she; that it's essentially a non-issue that's not important to them in their day-to-day lives. I keep reminding her that all actions, along with non-actions, have consequences. She understands this, but I have concluded that the vast majority of students in her generation certainly don't view life the same way as when I was in school. If I'm not mistaken, the new movie coming out tomorrow, Lions for Lambs, addresses this very issue.

I noticed your reading preferences through your link. May I suggest a brilliant new book by Naomi Klein, called The Shock Doctrine. If you haven't read it, I can't recommend it enough. You'll never view the world in the same way. And, being from Chicago, it'll have even deeper relevance!

Best of luck!

Abortion is about cute little babies, they just love babies.

http://www.bang-bangs.com/mutantdollies.html

They don't care what happens when they outgrow diapers, in the sheeples mind torture is a necessary evil, as Dick the heartless put it "we may have to work the dark side"

Torture is NOT the new abortion, not to Christians and scared old ladies.

In the name of God, the All Merciful, the Mercy-giving

JJPETER and NoChicagoBoys: thanks for your comments!

NoChicagoBoys: I'm not too sure what you mean by method, but I basically asked a series of questions about torture and how they felt toward it, etc. I then tallied the results. My class is very small- the survey was taken by 19 people I think. But I was shocked that in a random group of people, that high of a percentage would answer the way they did. Let's just say I felt REALLY safe in my class afterwards ; ) Hope I don't get on anyone's bad side ; )
You can tell your daughter that I COMPLETELY empathize with her. And tell her not to let the reactions of our peers dishearten her. I too am very politically aware and social justice is very high on my list. And most of my peers frankly don't really care about what's going on in the world (or at home either). As a generation I think we've just been too pampered and public education has really dumbed us down, it really has not challenged us. Most of my peers are very content with just "living the life" and do not have an ethic of being responsible, pro-active, or involved adults.
I'm giving my next speech in the class against torture, saying it's morally wrong etc, etc...we'll see how the question-and-answer session goes ; )
About Naomi Klein's book, I'm ordering it! I'll be posting stuff about it on my blog.

salaam

Perhaps we should all be alittle bit skeptical about what the propaganda machine tells us about our values. Since they haven't gotten a very good track record in accurate information gathering, they may simply be telling us such things to try to make us feel isolated and afraid to speak out. The GOP's base is shrinking as we speak and the elite power brokers are flailing about to find another issue to keep the fear index right up there in the Red Zone. There are still a few who buy into it, but I trust not as many as before. The veils of distortion are clearing and the Master Puppet will be exposed.They can run but they can't hide from the Light. It's march is inexorable.

Another reason that Robertson has endorsed Giuliani is his commitment to the state of "Israel" (why the heck this needs to be a credential for a person running for office in AMERICA, I do not know): Here is a quote from him (got it from the New York Times):

"We had a lot of time coming back from Israel to talk about our understanding of how important Israel is to the United States, how important they are in this whole vast effort that we're involved in in this terrorist war against us," Mr. Giuliani recalled Wednesday in an interview with Radio Iowa.

Some food for thought

I should like to institute a new program to deal with illegal immigrants who came across the Mexican border.

Since they risked their lives to come to America, they go to the top of our list of desirable people.

And since those people who are pro-torture, starting with the president, are at the bottom of the same list, a simple exchange should solve all problems.

The only possible drawback is that exporting members of America's toilet class-- the pro-torture deviators from the Geneva Conventions-- to Mexico, is unbelievably cruel to Mexico.

Instead, then, all toileters, once they have been rounded up, go to live on Pitcairn Island in the Pacific Ocean.

If Pitcairn doesn't have room, we must find other isolated places to fill.

For every toilet classer removed from the United States, of course, an illegal Hispanic immigrant is granted full American citizenship.

"How, though," you say, "will we choose from so many people?"

Go with similarity of body type.

BOTTLE: lol

Ask any evangelical, fundamental, right wing, born again Christian whether their Christ dying on the cross was torture. They would surely have to say it was only an interesting new way to a better place. After all the Romans did not TORTURE either!! We can all enjoy our comfortable lives better now knowing that we do not have to contemplate such tactics being used. Praise the Lord!

Senate has approved the torture as policy AG:

Apparently the Republicans have the discipline to vote their party -- to a man (or woman). The Democrats – well I don't know . . . they are closet Repulicans. The turncoats and wimpouts are:
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Not Voting
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Not Voting
Dodd (D-CT), Not Voting
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lieberman (ID-CT), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Not Voting
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Not Voting
Schumer (D-NY), Yea

In addition, it is notable the gutless wonders who would be president failed to vote on this key appointment. So, even John McCain could not bring himself to vote "nay." And the Democrats didn't have the courage of their alleged convictions to show up and make it a matter of record. So it is official, the US government – executive, judicial and legislative endorse torture.

The right-wing Evangelical leadership is splitting up among the Republican frontrunners: Brownback to McCain, Robertson to Giuliani, Dobson to Romney(not official yet)--it's like a man-to-man defense. Who's got Huckabee? Seems like he would be their guy, but not one major endorser from the Evangelicals. Hmm.

I think the Evangelicals are sublimating their domestic agenda to urge on the coming of Armageddon. This is--how can I say it?--anti-Christian, to be seeking death, torture and war. As an agnostic, I feel I am more in sympathy with the teachings of Jesus than they are. They are not even hiding behind their Bibles any more; they are just making secular, nakedly political calculations. Just win, baby!

The Evangelical rank and file, who are generally more sincere in their beliefs, should vote their values, which include ideas like caring for the environment and serving the less fortunate, and turn their back on their leadership.

JH, that's what it says to me. Also, agree with your assessment of gutless wonders. Pathetic!

LITTLEM85, glad you're buying the book. It'll be one of the most important, and relevant, you'll ever read.

Democrats have a majority in the Senate. Mukasey was confirmed by the Senate. That's the evidence.

Let's hear the Democratic fantasy apologia now.

When the reader combines the thesis of this article with that raised about the Christian prosletyizing of military ground soldiers, a common theme emerges: that of the radical racist agenda of setting forth the basis for a 'holy war.' These imbeciles with their primitive concepts of fighting for "team god" will take all of us along for a big bang to end all big bangs (a/k/a End times/Armageddon) in the holy land. What a travesty! Makes you hope the varied persona of miracle-makers across the centuries would just energetically manifest to tell all their sheep-like followers how wrong they've gotten THE message! It would be comic if it were not so vastly tragic and gaining tread in our midst!

JJPETER: we are a nation of hate because religions teach division and denial, they punish followers with authoritarian demands to follow rules appropriate to former centuries, and the MSM feeds on FEAR of other. Add it up, and re-read the article about Christian warriors... it's breathtaking.

FRANK1569 says, " box office numbers, "we" love torture." I'd be a little more selective about that ambiugous pronoun WE... who is "the we" in reference? The dumbos who think God has consigned mankind to End Times with a scintillating eternal heavenly after life awaiting? It probably is slim to none in this forum. Please... the US is a highly diversified society, almost undergoing its own form of mitosis as evolved souls with a healthy concept of humanity find their every ideal opposed by primitives who march backwards to history and seem to think the crusades present a positive expression of religion and/or personal resource usage.

REDJEFF: Right on!

nobody talks about life
the excuse of terrorism
has the entire planet in the clutches
of thanatos.life is anything but sacred except for the chosen ones.