"What an attack on Iran really means"
http://www.chycho.com/?q=Gwynne_Dyer

"Just to put things into perspective, making sure that it is fully understood what the impact of an attack on Iran really means, consider this. The United States has already stated that they will use nuclear weapons in an aerial bombardment campaign against Iran. Since the creation of the atomic bomb, it has been accepted that once nuclear weapons are used again in any war, then they will continue to be used until there is no one left to kill. As the saying goes, you do not bring a knife to a gunfight, so once a nuclear weapon has been used on any country then that country and its people have a right to use unclear weapons in retaliation. Albert Einstein once said, "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones". I personally hope that we will not fulfill Einstein's prophecy."

It seems to me, given the Pakistan situation, and the American election of 2008 now less than one year away, that if any airstrike is done in the near term on an Iranian facility that it would be more likely done by Israel than by the United States.

Maybe someone should bomb the US and Israel's nuclear fascilities since they are the ones that actually impose mass suffering, invade sovereign territory, lie, claim victimization or strut like heroes when they are war criminals, and ignore the most UN resolutions...and so the litany goes.

I agree Daniel David. The important thing for the U.S. is to prevent Iran from exporting oil thereby driving up the price of oil for U.S. controlled companies. An attack by Israel will do the trick. As for the chaos that will surely follow, I'm afraid that the Neo-cons actually believe that it will be contained. After all, the MIC is in high gear with no signs of slowing down in my lifetime.
As for Pakistan, despite the turmoil viewed in the media these days, Musharraf is not likely to lose control. The opposition is divided, poorly armed and uncoordinated. The problems there won't spill over to Iran. It is far more likely that the problems in Iran will spill into Pakistan.

THE REAL WMD THAT THE INTERNATIONAL,FINANCIAL, ELITE FEAR IS THE OIL BOURSE. THE IRANIAN WMD ISSUE IS A CANARD; AND THIS REALLY IS THE NUCLEAR WEAPON THAT SCARES HELL OUT OF THEM. IRAN IS IN THE PROCESS OF CHANGING THEIR BOURSE AND HAS 85% OF IT FINISHED. WHAT A COINCIDENCE, WE ATTACKED IRAQ ABOUT THE TIME THEY WERE CHANGING THEIR BOURSE. WAR IS ALWAYS ABOUT INDUSTRIAL SELFISHNESS. WE ARE TALKING POTENTIAL LOSES IN THE TRILLIONS OF $. NOTHING EVER CHANGES: FOLLOW THE $!

Military sources in Washington said that the existence of such a large number could be a "tipping point", triggering an Israeli air strike. The Pentagon is reluctant to take military action against Iran, but officials say that Israel is a "different matter".

Different how? Either way it will correctly be seen as coming from the same imperial alliance and the end result will be the same.

While we're at it, better nuke Canada at the same time. Those nasty Canucks have had the knowledge, technology and ongoing programs of atomic energy and nuclear development since WWII. Hell, they've even got their own raw materials sources without needing anything from Niger.

Considering the amount of petroleum in and under Canadian soil, they can't possibly be doing this for peaceful purposes. You can never trust UN IAEA monitoring. Canada might follow the example of its US neighbor and just ignore its treaty obligations and international laws that it finds inconvenient. And they're a heck of a lot closer to the fatherland than Iran is. Nuke 'em now before it's too late.

USA and Israel are the problems here. One is the thief and the other is the alibi.

Israel responded by serving notice that it would not tolerate a nuclear Iran. "Talks never did, and never will, stop rockets," said Ehud Barak, the Defence Minister, after talks with the security cabinet.

What colossal arrogance!!!!! Certainly talk hasn't stopped Israeli rockets. (Concern about Israel's intentions has been heightened by its recent air strike on a suspected nuclear plant in Syria.) Haven't heard anything about Iran setting off rockets against anybody.

Has anybody noticed that in GW's "terror war", he has allied himself with the two nuclear terrorist regimes in the midEast, Israel and Pakistan?

Instead of invading Iraq the coalition of the willing should have invaded Israel to stop its naked agression and restore human rights and some justice for the palestinians.

Iran's military is about 1/20,000 of the US, and far smaller than any of its mid-east neighbors. It does have some ships and a small air force, but militarily-speaking Iran is about as threatening as Iraq was before we bombed it into the stone age. The only thing Iran has is infantry and rockets - if they developed nuclear weapons, yes, they theoretically could attach one to a rocket and hurt someone in a 500-1000 mile radius from Iran. So what? They would never do so, since they know quite well that their existence would end 1 hour later.

If they want a nuclear weapon as a deterrent against the US or Israel invading them - good. Who can blame them? It's what every country wants - everyone knows that the only countries the US invades are non-nuclear nations. This is why we would never invade N. Korea: they have nukes. Israel is in violation of the UN NP treaty by possessing nuclear weapons but refusing to acknowledge them so it doesn't have to be bound by it. The US is in violation of numerous other international laws and treaties - or just plain withdraws from the ones it doesn't like - as well. We have violated the Nuremburg Charter and the Geneva Conventions by establishing actual military plans for the nuclear bombardment of other countries. Even planning nuclear attacks - whether carried out or not - is illegal, and considered a War Crime per the above-named laws, of which the US is a signatory.

But so what? The US can do anything it wants, and thus so can Israel. Iran is no more a threat to us or them than Iraq was, but by God we will bomb the crap out of them (or through our proxy state, Israel) in the name of "national security," and the law and humanity and the rest of the world be damned.

Who is the real terrorist state? Iran, for wanting to develop a nuclear weapon so the US won't attack it? Or the US - the only nation in the history of the world to actually premeditavely plan and launch not 1 but 2 nuclear weapons against a civilian population, murdering over 500,000 human beings?

Remember Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Remember the USS Liberty

Remember the great USAer
Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC [Retired]
Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

There isn't much of a difference between Israel and the United States. Israel is the proxy of the United States for enslaving and punishing the Arabs and Muslims.

If I had to bet money, I would wager that Israel will attack Iran for the United States. The USA (United States of Atrocities) will play its role by arming Israel with whatever armaments the Israelis want.

Think of the USA as the mafia and Israel as one its hitmen.

If Israel attacks Iran does Iran have the "right to defend" itself?

If Israel attacks Iran does Iran have the "right to defend" itself?

Of course not! What a silly question. Besides, Israel doesn't 'attack' people. It merely emulates its US sponsor by engaging in a little 'pre-emptive warfare' from time to time.

Absolute insanity, but what can you expect when the inmates are in charge of the asylum?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=OSB20060314&articleId=2093

"The aim is to prevent Iranian students getting expertise in fields related to producing weapons of mass destruction. Sixty Iranians have been refused university places this year."

Nothing like an old-fashioned witchhunt is there, yeee hawww! I guess this is what happens when you declare an entire people to be evil, remember the Axis?

And yes, there's a good chance that Iran wants a nuke, but is it also possible that the Imperialists want to stop it from producing domestic nuclear energy? After all, the more nuclear energy Iran puts into its grid, the more oil it has to export. And not just export to anywhere, but to China. Hmmmmm....another interesting coincidence to work in conjunction with the Bourse theory mentioned above.

Israel and the USA both have extremely barbaric people in power, they are menaces to mankind and must be stopped.

What a perfect way to stir up more Islamic fundamentalism, while wrecking the credibility of secular reformers throughout the Moslem world.

Nobody will be fooled if Israel does America's military dirty work against Iran.
US fingerprints will be all over this crime scene.

If this happens, I would expect renewed Al Qaeda attacks against US citizens at home and abroad, leading to more security measures at home and abroad, leading to more cowardice by our domestic media and so-called opposition party, and so on, and so on.

The general approach of this article is dangerous, because it coheres with the position that if Iran has a nuclear weapons program, the Cheney 'solution' makes sense, and because it ignores the real problem of the situation, which is the occupation of the ME by the U.S. We need to cease our aggression if we expect others to do the same. If we do not, the people of the ME will and have the right to take whatever means necessary to defend themselves.

"And if they get blown away, it is because of their own doing."

Unfortunately, as a country that actually does have a goodly number of nuclear weapons, their getting 'blown away' would undoubtedly be accompanied by a Samsonian bringing down of the planet. They just don't want anyone else in the region to have anything approaching the level of destructive potential that they possess.

Israel again? War-mongers! They will pull the world into a catastophic nuclear war!
Israel has been charged many times with crimes, and yet she has never seen the inside of a courtroom. Israel is nothing more than a criminal nation-state, who has never been brought to justice-in any form.
Her crimes against the Palestinians alone, are horrific. Israel has been a "rogue nation" for too long. She needs to be shackled.

Demonstorm

3 of our 11 carrier groups are in the gulf, and they would be easy victims of Irans anti ship technology. The sunburst system purchased from Russia and China cannot be defended. Much of the airwar discussed as bombing Iran into the stoneage would be carrier based. Iran can also effectively close down the Persian Gulf via the Straights of Hormuz, no more tankers would leave the middle east (yikes!).

I am really scared that Bush is in his final death throes and will do something as stupid as attack ANOTHER country, possibly with nuclear weapons.

I wouldnt put it past the administration to view the thousands of soldiers who would be killed in the Gulf as a small price to pay in order to reward contractors will a nice order for 3 new carrier groups.

It seems as though Israel is the USA's OTHER Blackwater. Hired contractors defined by a border, but contractors nonetheless.

This is where US interest clearly is separate from Israeli interest, but who's to know? The US$ and Americans' wealth and lifestyle are clearly on a knife edge now as the world ponders ditching the Yankee dollar as the reserve currency.

An Israeli attack on Iran will light the fuse of a massive war in the Middle East. Iranian forces will pour into Iraq. Iraqi Shiites will turn on the Americans causing massive casualties on all sides. Iranian rockets will plaster American client regimes in the ME. The Straits of Hormuz will be blocked.

The price of oil will skyrocket. $20/gallon if you can get it. President Chavez, whom Bush has managed to piss off big time, will take punitive action against the bombing and destruction of a country with whom he had a frienship pact. Russia and China will retaliate, if subtly. Commerce around the world will grind to a halt. Your supermarket shelves will be go empty.

America will be finished. As former Regan staffer Dr. Paul Craig Roberts says in one of his brillant articles, Dubya will have done to the American Empire in seven years what in other empires took thousands of years.

American People! STOP THESE NOCON MADMEN and that Israeli thug! NOW!!

"Now Israel is calling for El-Baradei's resignation, calling him a hinderence to world peace. Can you believe the arrogance of this tiny racist state? They go around pre-emptively striking at will and then wonder why they are hated. Israel deserves everything coming their way. And if they get blown away, it is because of their own doing."

How ironic it will be if the Israelis finish the job the Germans started in the 1930's by committing nuclear suicide. If they use a nuke on Iran that's exactly what they will be doing. It is possible that if Israel sees the end coming they will go out with a region wide nuclear spasm taking most of the Middle East to hell with them. Just a thought. Are thoughts illegal yet? If not maybe they will be soon, by presidential order.

One of the most useful economic concepts is full costs. If full costs of everything are reflected in their retail prices the consumer may very easily uphold one's environmental/social responsibilities by acting in one's economic self-interest.

Likewise, when the full costs of nuclear weapons are made public, the citizen more easily arrives at the conclusion that meets both the citizen's economic self interest and environmental/social responsibilities. The full costs of nuclear weapons include the costs incurred attempting to prevent other countries from catching up in the nuclear arms race.

The entire Iraq war budget (including future trillion dollar veterans costs) must be added to the full cost of the US nuclear weapons program. Given the public's environmental/social responsibilities, we must factor in the opportunity cost of the US government's perennial nuclear distraction, which inhibits our quest to advance the environmental/social well-being of the planet.

Full costs will reveal that the nuclear program, like all of the right-wing enterprises, has to be banished. We're closer than ever to impeaching and exorcising El Diablo from the White House and the heart of America. After that, we'll leave the White House vacant to let the sulfur stench dissipate while we ram a full costs bill through the US Congress. It's going to be a busy 12 months dismantling "laissez-faire" capitalism and the military-industrial complex.

Why is this crap on CD?

When are we going to bomb Israel's nuclear weapons facilities?...how about India's and Pakiatans?

Are thoughts illegal yet? If not maybe they will be soon, by presidential order.

comment by the dude or dudette with the awesome name of bongofury

'The U.S. House of Representatives recently passed HR 1955, titled the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007. It was passed with 404 votes in favor.
snip
This is a "thoughtcrime" bill of the type so often discussed in an Orwellian context. It specifically targets the civilian population of the United States. It defines "violent radicalization" as promoting any belief system that the government considers to be extremist.
snip
A few extracts of the bill are presented below to show you its tone or flavor.

"(2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION- The term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system… to advance political, religious, or social change."'

http://downwithjugears.blogspot.com/

A bit of a stretch but not by much!

The US isn't reluctant to bomb Iran. We're only waiting until we can figure our how to get the public to buy-in to it so there's not massive protesting and rioting.
Israel has no right to attack Iran. If they are that stupid then they should be left to their own design when they get stomped.
My concern is that an Israeli attack on Iran will be an excuse for the US to get involved. I doubt it will work though because the protesting will be massive.
Mr. Ahmadinejad said that Israel will "Pass from the pages of time". If Israel is stupid enough to attack Iran, I think they'll get "Wiped off the map".

Israel's military, like the Pakistan military is financed by U.S. taxpayers. Both countries are like colonies, they follow orders from the
rabid bastards in Washington.

The time for Empires and imperialism has past. It's time for social democracy and world peace. To hell with tolerating the oligarchy and their unbridled greed and the poverty that they create!

'If Israel is stupid enough to attack Iran, I think they'll get "Wiped off the map".'

Don't forget, Israel has nuclear capabilities. I'm sure, if total devastation and defeat were imminent, Israel wouldn't have any reservations, at all, about using them against Iran.

If so, then all Hell would break loose.

TheLorax ...

Unfortunately for the world, in the most recent Zogby Poll released October 29, the "majority of likely voters – 52% – would support a U.S. military strike to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon, and 53% believe it is likely that the U.S. will be involved in a military strike against Iran before the next presidential election."
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1379

dumb ... very very dumb ... I'm personally starting to think America is the way it is because of what people eat ... we are after all what we eat and since most of America eat processed food then it would explain why they can't think

"Some of the so-called 'food' that majority of Americans eat"
http://www.chycho.com/?q=node/1215
"Every month more than 90 percent of American children eat at McDonald's ; the average American eats three hamburgers and four orders of french fries every week."

That's a good one, haha......"U.S. 'fears' Israel strike against Iran." What a bunch of jokers they are. The truth is the U.S. is eagerly anticipating Israel to start the free-for-all and of course it will jump in to "defend" Israel. Both war criminal countries have it all planned out.

It's been a done deal for 15 years or more. When the Israelis think they are close to starting enrichment they are going to come to us and ask us to take it out, if we refuse (and we will), they are going to do it.

The dollar is already heading for the toilet, oil prices are skyrocketing, investors are fleeing to the yuan and rupee, home foreclosures will only worsen, credit is drying up. A war with Iran will be the final tragic act of a dying, gasping, empire.
It doesn't matter if the US or Israel attacks Iran. Everyone knows it's one and the same thing. Unlike Syria, I doubt that Iran will ignore an attack. Alliances with Russia and China are already in the works with Iran. China holds the US by the financial balls.
Cheney Bush Cabal Inc. are on a suicide mission. The wounded beast looks, deceptively, like it's still standing but will soon flop over with a resounding thud.

greatbear215 and countess
And your solution is what? Let's see. Invade Israel and put down the "Zionist Pigs,' put their holy places to the torch and drive their war criminal army into the sea. What to do with the Zionist population of seven million who don't want to leave. You've got it countess and greatbear215. Kill two million, or so, of them and disperse the rest through Europe and the world. Wait, The Romans did this already, not very original. While you don't have Flavius Silva and Legio X Fretensis, you can muster General Qussem Soleimani and the Quds Forces. Rant on. Twits!

Drive them into the sea?
Give me a break. I get so sick of hearing this whine of the internal victim while they in fact, are a nuclear superpower imposing an apartheid on a victimized population..of semite people. Yeah, what is it you call it..."transfer"--you know, like an exile of sorts...

It is all I can take from not cursing outloud.

Salvia, note the language of that Zogby poll - yhey used people's fear of nuclear weapons on that one.

The CNN poll out today has different results:

"The public also opposes U.S. military action against Iran. Sixty-three percent oppose air strikes on Iran, while 73 percent oppose using ground troops as well as air strikes in that country."

Not great but better.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/08/cnn-political-ticker-am-90/

Cut the crap, Vern! And your solution is what?

The authors of this article repeat that Amadinejad said he wants Israel "wiped off the map", something he did not say. What he did say is that he wished that Israel would eventually disappear. That is quite different; I could say this as well, but would not subscribe to any unprovoked military attack on Israel.

This is a canard that continues to be used by the mainstream press to push its aggressive anti-Iranian agenda.

somersault: ... renewed Al Qaeda attacks against US citizens at home and abroad, leading to more security measures at home and abroad, leading to more cowardice by our domestic media and so-called opposition party, and so on, and so on.

You left out the best part - more money for BushCo's investors!

Russia sees the Iranian Nuke Plant as Ruassian soil. The US and Israel are playing Russian Roulette. Do you think this is why the Bushes bought that 100,000 Hectare ranch in Uruguay. Once all of the USA is radioactive, they will need somewhere to live. Using nukes against a non-nuclear nation is suicide. The other NPT signees will have to destroy the aggressor nation. Read the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty.

Ominous!

Well, neglecting the fact that Iran's nuclear enrichment program and all other aspects of their nuclear program are under IAEA inspections... no, not just normal inspections, but additional scrutiny inspired by the totally groundless accusations against them; Neglecting that there are enormous differences between the plumbing of centrifuges for fuel grade uranium and for weapons grade; Neglecting that one does not switch the plumbing for uranium fluoride gas, as one would switch the plumbing for milk vats; Neglecting all of that, one might imagine that 3000 centrifuges operational might allow Iran to produce enough weapons grade uranium in a year for a bomb to be built in some finite time after that.

Ominous indeed, if you are a blathering idiot, and particularly want to be scared out of your non-existent wits. Otherwise, you might conclude that Iran could not produce weapons grade uranium as long as IAEA inspections endure. You might then encourage the cooperation of IAEA and Iran, rather than try to undercut the negotiation process in favour of belligerent posturing.

Seems like the only solution is a first strike on Israel's nukes, air bases and submarines. Then the world can sigh, take a deep breath and get down to real peace talks. Real hope of the fantasy of peace in the ME coming true.
I believe the cheering could be heard on the moon if this happened.

People its the other way around the US is Israel's attack dog. Walt and Mersheimer prove as much in their book about AIPAC and certainly the patriot Jimmy Carter stated as much. Lets not forget who serves Israel either the Schumer's Mukasey's, Liberman's, Feinstein's and the necons in our gov't. No one else in our gov't no other faction wants war with Iran only the pro-Zionist one. Time to wake up!

I deeply apologize to all of the previous military nuclear strategists on right now, it's just I do not want to be vaporized just yet, my daughter's, I sort of really love them, yet the thought of dying together is not acting as a mega-benzo to my system.
I have family in Havana, Istanbul, Bursa and America, so knock this shit off! As if we have any say in it, alright? Alright.
Thank You.

Bob Van den Broeck - I believe that huge piece of land the Bushes bought is actually in Paraguay. The link says that it's just under 100,000 acres and they also reports that Rev. Moon (!) also bought almost 1.5 million acres in the same place.

Coincidentally (?):
'both the Moonie and Bush land is located at what Paraguay's drug czar called an "enormously strategic point in both the narcotics and arms trades." And it sits atop the one of the world's largest fresh-water aquifers.'

There's more:
http://wonkette.com/politics/george-w'-bush/we-hate-to-bring-up-the-nazis-but-they-fled-to-south-america-too-208549.php

You might be thinking of Uruguay because Bush Sr. accompanied Rev. Moon to Uruguay to inaugurate a new Moonie "seminary" in 1996.

Boy for a minute there I thought the headline was saying that the US was reluctant to attack Iran but not relulctant to atack Israel. (Nah--I really knew that wasn't the plan!) But this is like that old saying that if all you have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail.

Israel's belligerence in the Middle East is not only fueled by its nuclear weaponry,(everybody throw yo' hands in the air and say "Noo-q-lur--wheee"!) it is equally facilitated by billions of dollars in unrestricted no strings attached money given to that country by the US.

So here's what we could do: Park the 5th fleet off of Israel's Mediterrainian coast and redirect the Persian Gulf carrier and land-based air power to keep an AWACS watch on Israel (that way we don't get anymore sinkings like what happened to The Liberty in '67)

The president then tells Israel that they have 90 days to arrange for a complete UN inspection and monitoring of their nuclear facilities and that failure to cooperate will result in the immediate cessation of all US aid and cooperation as well as a Cuban-style trade embargo on their commerce. We could even threaten to freeze all assets of private charities providing aid to Israel (Is this sounding familiar to anyone?)

Then we diplomatically tell Syria, Iran, and the rest of the anti-semetic Middle East that (like Sting!) Every step you take, every move you make, our military will be watching you--so behave yourselves!

Demonstorm--

Speaking to you as a brother, I say that yes, our country is terrorist, but no, you should
never underestimate Iranian military resolve nor that of Iraq nor any Arab country.

Yes, the US bombed Iraq back into the stone age, but militarily the place has more than held its own, through roadside attacks which are the equivalent of endless guerilla warfare when there is a jungle.

Do we really want, for the next thousand years, a world full of Sirhan Sirhans going around and killing an American every time he or she turns their back?

The same person who can be very sweet if you are generous, thoughtful and reasonable can become the most formidable adversary in the world once his back is up.

Have you ever played an Iranian in tennis and gotten ahead?

I suggest that you read Bruce Laingen's book on the Iranian character. He was head of the mission that was kidnapped and held in Tehran
and knows more about these people first-hand.