I don't think the U.S. brought democracy to post-war Germany and Japan per se as a matter of intent. The multifaceted war among imperial powers left those two societies completely bereft of civil infrastructue. The people there had no choice but to restructure their societies according to the will of the occupiers. It was a matter of obtaining food and shelter. It should also be pointed out that Germany had a democracy until 1933 when the fascists subverted it and destoyed it.
But I think Prof. Zinn is right, exporting democracy as a matter of U.S. foreign policy has never worked .

Considering amerika's gift of "democracy" to Japan and Germany after 1945. For every Marshal Plan there is a Morgentau Plan and the truth lies somewhere in between. For every cent the US invested in Germany and Europe you can be sure the userer got double his cash back, ask the Brits what Uncle Sam's protection racket cost them under Lend Lease to bail their colonial asses out of the war. Don't forget about the million plus German POWs left to rot in open fields after the war's end. There was also the little problem of Operation Keelhaul not to mention secret Brit and Yank torture centers operating throughout Germany for years afterwards.

Germany is still occupied amerikan military territory as well as Italy and the crass damp island of WASP cousins' England. Ask Germans how they feel about 30,000 US mercenaries plus dependents on their soil and they will stare blankly and shrug it off like Italians who spray the walls of amerikan bases with anti gringo commentaries. The CIA managed local politicians talk about jobs (cleaners, drivers, gophers) not to mention drug dealers and whores keeping "our troops" in the style they are accustomed to back home in their slums and ghettos. Hey.. holding up the bar down in Bavaria or Landstuhl, scoffing pizza on Maddalena (moving on early 2008) is sure better than having to reduce Iraqi villages to ash...or is it...if you're a true blooded amerikan patriotic killing machine?

Another pils for me there, fraulein....all in a day's demokracy on the edge of the fetid empire!

I quit dining on U.S. Government issued swill back in 1967, when the draft board was trying to turn me into cannon fodder. Young people today don't have the incentive to think outside the box. Mr. Zinn's "History" is a clear version of America that my teachers never even thought of. Once you realize the REAL reason wars are waged, you can never go back to the flock of mindless sheep who pledge to the flag and get teary-eyed when the Blood-Spangled Banner is played. War is terrorism...plain and simple. The people who wage the wars are war criminals. The people who support and fund the wars from the halls of congress are war criminals. Anyone who supports the wars is a war criminal. Plain and simple. If you work in the so-called defense industry or if you own stock in any of the companies involved, you're a war profiteer and a war criminal. Just say no and walk away from the table of corporatism.

CHECK OUT PAUL HAWKEN'S NEW BOOK, BLESSED UNREST.IT'S RIGHT ALONG WITH PROF. ZINN'S BRILLIANT AND COURAGEOUS LEADERSHIP AND INSPIRATION.
BOYCOTT EXXON/MOBIL, GLOBALLY, TO BANKRUPTCY.
DRIVE BY THEIR STATIONS.
HELP THE WORKERS GET OTHER JOBS.
THE GOVERNMENT AND BIG OIL ARE ONE. REF: AFRICOM, THE NEW US COMMAND TO SECURE OIL OF AFRICA.

With all due respect, I think the people asking him to run for Congress and such have kind of missed his point a little. He said "withdraw your obedience from our government" and "revolution is our only option to bring about change".

I really think the difference between that and something like "we need better people like him in more offices in our government" is very, very important. The difference between his notion and "everything depends on getting a Democrat back in the White House" is especially important.

I don't think he exaggerates much or speaks wildly off the cuff. I think he was careful with what he said, and I think he meant exactly what he said.

Ullern: Exactly what is the evidence that America brought democracy to the German people? I'm sorry, but you have overgeneralized yourself. America occupied Germany with the "Allied Forces", and without the Russians it would have been impossible without tremendously more death and destruction. Furthermore, we did not institute democracy there, we simply bombarded the opposition, making it easier for pro-democracy forces to take control of the country. Get your facts straight before you accuse somebody like Zinn of overgneneralizing.

UNcommondreams, Umlaut, it is so heart expanding to hear voices on Common Dreams who speak to a wider vision, a deepening perspective of what it means to be alive in these times. Indeed, spirituality differs from its human and narrowed constructs (religions) in that it is expansive, all inclusive, and in many senses, humbler. Whenever I think I finally "get it" I am bombarded with new insights which while deepening my appreciation, also remind me of the complexity of All That Is. I believe that many people grab on to religion, because they are deeply frightened of change and uncertainty. For me the only two things I feel certain of ARE change and the glue that keeps it all together---LOVE. In fact, I believe that Love is the very reason for change since it is not static,rather it is ever creative and expansive, and I might add, sometimes playful in its explorations of expression. Blessings to all !

Dear Howard Zinn,

Please consider running for Congress. It would be the perfect opportunity to take your message to many more people. Even if you don't win, you'll have the opportunity to inform and educate thousands more people.

Cindy Sheehan keeps talking about a 'Candidates for Peace' list of candidates across the country... We need people like Mr. Zinn to put their name at the top of this list, giving name recognition, credibility, and much needed media attention to the 400 regular citizens running alongside him.

You don't need any money. Imagine a platform where you ask for zero money... that would turn heads- finally someone that's not a phony politician looking to cash in... How can you win with no money? With the internet, and thousands of volunteers making websites, printing flyers and going door to door for you.

I like Howard Zinn, love his work.

But: "There's no evidence of America bringing democracy to the countries that we occupy."?

Except Germany after WWII.

That's still the example referred to for justifying all later occupations.

Undue generalization destroys credibility right and left.

Samski (Nov 8th, 8:36 am) takes issue with Zinn, saying, " Since we're taking about history Mr Zinn, one could make a strong case that American intervention brought democracy to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan."

- It looks like that, but only if you take a short-term view & leave unexamined some important assumptions (such as what "democracy" means). // The main point of WWII, from the viewpoint of American planners, had nothing to do with "democracy" in any serious sense. Rather, it focused on a complete overhaul of the global order, elevating the US to the position of undisputed leader, decisively assuming the role the UK had played until 1914. From WWII onwards, US policy was aimed at eliminating or containing all conceivable threats to US dominance.

In its postwar actions throughout Asia & Europe, the US restored to power most of the same social elements that had held power before WWII -- with the understanding that from now on, the US would be calling the shots. Once that was accepted, the US had no objection to former Nazis & fascist allies once again holding the reins in their own countries.

"Liberal democracy" has been the US model. It's a mode of social control. It's NOT really designed to empower the population; rather, it's designed simply to make the people think they have some say, just because they get to vote once every few years for pre-vetted business-friendly candidates. It's a mode of pacification of the population, buying them off with consumer goodies, but not really allowing them any meaningful role in social decision-making. // In making itself top dog, the US naturally insisted that Germany & Japan adopt models compatible with the US model -- but they were also explicitly barred from challenging the US for the top-dog position.

Though on the surface, the US could be seen as "bringing democracy to Nazi Germany," a deeper view would be that the US effort was aimed at eliminating any possible threat that Germany could possibly pose to US dominance. It was first & foremost a de-fanging of Germany, followed by installation of a government obedient to US dictates. Germany was reconfigured to have no military capability to speak of, to be dependent on the US for protection, & to have trade policies & relationships that were optimal for US multinationals. (Similarly for Japan.) // So, we gave them our version of pseudo-"democracy" -- with the added proviso that they weren't allowed to challenge us. We made them over in ways most congenial to our multinationals. Is that democracy?

The SUV drivers and other lazy-asses that we are always bitching about not engaging in the political process are not, nor have they ever been, the ones we need to call upon. Students, professors, artists, musicians, actors, writers, activists, and everyone else who believes in the notion that questioning authority is real patriotism, are the ones who will bring forward the revolution that Zinn is talking about, so we should be spending ALL of our time with those people!

Another thing: I would like all of those ninnies who have commented here about how pointless revolution is in the United States to say that to Howard Zinn. If Howard Zinn, the very reason I personally became an activist and a more politically aware citizen (after reading A People's History of the United States), is willing to still talk about revolution in this country, we should all be willing.

90 years after the October revolution in Petrograd and now its the turn of amerikan peasants to storm their own Bastille. Unfortunately the SUV land of the woppocino starschmux special doesn't seem to have what it takes to rid itself of the pest that is threatening the rest of the planet with its supremacist militarist agenda. The homegrown intellectuals stop way short of calling for regime change (by overthrowing the big bucks siamese twin party same agenda system) and the peasants are not reduced to eating their children yet.

Considering that amerikan mercenaries and death squads are roaming the planet in a futile quest to secure the last of our dwindling resources, it is pointless to expect change in a land so myopic and delusory as to believe that it is good and decent. Like Czarist Russia, Czarist Bushian amerika will first have to be humiliated and defeated abroad before the peasants come out of their hovels.

The global impact
Written by Esme Choonara
Monday, 05 November 2007

Internationalism was at the heart of the 1917 revolution, both as a principle and as a practical necessity. The Bolsheviks believed that the revolution must spread in order to survive.

Workers were sick of the slaughter of the First World War. There was economic turmoil across the globe. The revolution inspired millions to fight for radical change.

In the two years following 1917, there were upheavals across Europe. In 1918 the German empire collapsed and "people's commissars" formed the new government. In Italy there was a wave of struggle known as the Red Years of 1919-1920.

In Bavaria and Hungary rebellions briefly set up soviets. Spanish strikers in Valencia in 1918 renamed streets "Lenin" and "October Revolution". In Britain unrest and strikes broke out in 1919. There were mutinies in the French and British armies."

Jack37 said:

"I still CAN'T BELIEVE that tens of thousands of people turned out in Boston to celebrate the FUCKING RED SOX and less than 100th of that number turned out 10/27 to protest the killing and murder of brothers and sisters around the world at U.S. hands, for the U.S. LIFESTYLE WARS….I notice the phrase above that there's "a stigma with activism" and see how deeply enslaved we are becoming—first, like all slaves, of ourselves and our ignorance of each other, encouraged every step by the fucking TV…."

People don't much care about the war because there is no draft to bring it home. They don't care much about government for that matter, knowing its corrupt and they have no say in it despite the necessary illusions the oligarchy's MSM foster.

Dear Professor Zinn,

I am thankful that some of the Washington Post's writers and intellectuals who see the danger of this country drifting toward totalitarianism who are concerned with the drift of this country toward fascism as a result of the Bush fear tactics. Limiting dissent, the backbone of democracy, and support of vociferous Americans, like Medea Benjamin who appears in my documentary, and realize like you, that we are in deep trouble if we wipe out dissent. Truly than we have begun the slide down the long slippery slope to fascism

I was in Europe on the morning of 9/!11 and began writing a work titled "Mountain Storm" I finished it four days later. I foresaw all f the events that would take place in these 7years of Bush leadership, Including hanging on to power at any cost and to design a strategy that would keep his administration in power. the neocon vision of the world view would have us engaged in war, as the Roman empire was until it succumbed to bankruptcy.

The Iraq war was inevitable since it all but assured the Bush reelection. I closed the 200 page document with this statement: " Bin Laden is a very clever man, he knew how George Bush would react, he thought very carefully how he could bankrupt America. The tragedy of 9/11 and George Bush in power is that it will replace the emphasis of where American resources should go, the fight against Global Warming and the degradation of the environment" the first priority, but this does not fit the neocon vision whose power base rests with the XXON/Mobile corps of the world. The US has created more rather than less terrorism in the world with its short term policies. As you know terrorism can only be dealt with locally and strategically.

A heroic global aid package truly aimed at the developing nations and the poor will defeat more terrorism than the entire western world's resources. Indeed given the G8 preoccupation with terror at the cost of the environment, the inevitable climate catastrophe will require resources unimaginable to deal with the results of the environmental refugee problem. I would like to know how people will be cataloged under these circumstances?

I could not get the "Mountain Storm" document published. It was equal to treason in 2001 to have written this work. Bill Maher was fired for less, since the entire US congress and judicial system was on a witch-hunt. Any document like mine would have made me a suspect for arrest as a subversive. I considered publishing in the newly formed Al Jazera but dismissed that idea, since I would not have been taken seriously in the West and it would have been used as propaganda.

It did not take a lot of work for Bush, Rove and Cheney to accomplish their goal; to use fear and fabricated provocation to create a war to win reelection. The American people have been conditioned by long years by television advertising to accept the so-called "truth" fabricated in multinational board rooms and broadcast by a controlled media. The circle of mind control is complete in America and the G-8 nations. The above combination aids and abets this condition of an ignorant and compliant public.

The American people are free to choose between several brands of tooth paste and polluting vehicles produced by the big three in collusion with the oil companies.

, you write for the media conglomerates and know that the important stories and messages are subverted at the editor's dictate and the publishers pleasure. Also, we all know television journalism offers no help for the public to be educated in its choice or point of view. The media is represented by the Russerts and Williamsons of the world who marginalize candidates with questions about UFOs and religious prayer.

Professor Zinn , you know that many intellectuals like Noam Chomsky have railed against public ignorance and media manipulation who try to offer alternative points of view in support of truth and fair appraisal of current events. Who criticize main stream media, and must rely on CommonDreams or other places for exposing their views that do not have the circulation of the major media outlets to reach the broad public mind. As a result we are truly in a drift toward the "Brave New World".

However, given this condition the abuses to the truth and the constitution and rile of law by the Bush administration have been so extreme 75% of the population have seen through his lies and deceit, reflecting the polls for his government

In one final note: One of the most important editorials here on Common Dreams is the focus on Michael Copps FCC member who sees the danger of media conglomeration and is trying to save us all from it. I suggest you all read that editorial.

GOOD LUCK TO THOSE OF YOU WHO STILL CARE ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC IDEAL IT REQUIRES RENEWAL IN THE USA BUT THAT DEPENDS ON EDUCATION WHICH IS A DEPLORABLE SATE IN THIS COUNTRY.

lilulu said:

"Gee, how are we going to afford to wage war anymore? Shall we beg for alms from our friends or what? Maybe a miracle will happen and the war profiteering criminals who have gotten obscenely rich from the "war" on Iraq will pay for the wars themselves instead of us tax payers paying for everything."

No chance. The oligarchy's imperial plan doesn't include us except as cannon fodder and cheap labor.

SIOUXROSE and UN-COMMON-DREAMS and many other conributors to Common Dreams.

Thank you for you for your thoughtful comments.

Yes, you are quite right, spirituality can be distinctly different from organized religion. I really need to make that clear.

Much of institutional religion rules with authority, control, certitude, dogma and the lust for power. In fact, much of institutional religion has divorced itself from spirituality. This is because institutional religion rules with the egoic mind, just like most, if not all, non-religious ruling institutonal forces. The egoic mind is initially necessary to prevent social chaos, but eventually it is corrupted by its own power. That is why the power of all forms of institutionl ruling forces must always be critiqued.

Unfortunately, Rome continues to rule with the egoic mind, rather than advancing to a higher level of spirituality with humility, compassion, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, loving your enemies and thus approaching wisdom by way of embracing the opposites. Many religious scholars of our day recognize that Christ had the most perfect non-egoic mind.

Presently, Rome is well aware that they are being challenged on this issue by most of its independent religious orders. Fortunately, as a group, these religious orders can resist excommunication. Most of these religious orders are dancing on the outer edge of Rome with a higher level of spirituality. Embracing a higher level of spirituality remains the greatest challenge facing Christianity as a whole. It is where the Church must be in the 21st Century, acting not as a ruling force, but as a PRAXIS, embracing all of humanity to bring about a more just, sustainable and compassionate world. The Church must learn how to be relevent in a secular world, not to fear it. This is what Vatican II was all about.

In fact, the practice of democracy can be most certainly a higher exercise of the human spirit than organized religion. That is why true participatory democracy is the essential ingredient or foundation for a universal higher global consciousness, to work for a more just, sustainable and compassionate world.

So as I mentioned before, radical social change can not succeed without a spiritual message, it is all about the higher angels of our nature.

The Hobbs post on Nov 7th at 6:24 P.M. had more truth, content and relevance than everything Bush has said in the last six years.

UMLAUT & UNCOMMON DREAMS: Great postings.

PAUL: I'd personally volunteer at that university, virtual or otherwise! If all kinds of intellects donated time, say 3 hours a week gratis, perhaps that dream could take flight!

Here, here!
Howard Zinn cuts through all the bullshit better than any one I've heard. I get tired of people saying "if only we had Gore or Nader or Kucininch etc... in the White House", but it's up to the people to befriend and empower themselves to make a decent world to live in. Isn't that what is meant by democracy? This week, I've heard many times on the news about crackdowns by governments against oppositional forces to preserve democracy. This makes no sense and is Orwellian to the nth degree. We need to implement a government that serves us instead of the other way around as it has for time immemorial.

Ok .... how about in the 60 years SINCE WWII?

I love the wanna-be revolutionaries who are stuck somewhere in about 1917 in their minds. The ones who complain that all people do is type on commondreams. They show a complete lack of any understanding of politics or modern society.

Do they think earlier revolutions just started spontaneously? Without people talking to each other first? Of course not. And they are so pre-Alexander Graham Bell in their strict feelings on how people can talk to each other. They'll constantly try to tell you that using this modern communications tool is useless. These are usually the same idiots that will be telling you to go start a street-fight with police wearing body armor and all armed with machine guns. They completely lack any imagination and can only say that this revolution must look exactly like the last revolution.

Sure, you must also be doing stuff beyond typing here. But don't discount using modern communications to spread the word. And you have to build strength and numbers. I'd bet every day someone comes here who didn't get it before, but does once they come here and start reading.

"If you look at the history of American occupations, look at the history of U.S. interventions in other parts of the world - where have we brought democracy? There's no evidence of America bringing democracy to the countries that we occupy."

Since we're taking about history Mr Zinn, one could make a strong case that American intervention brought democracy to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

(Though focusing only on very recent history I couldn't agree more.)

Paul Bramscher November 7th, 2007 7:50 pm
Gail,

Chomsky, Zinn and Vidal have something in common: they're not getting any younger.

The best legacy they could leave us, arguably, is to create some sort of people's university or think tank, without tuition fees, and pass on what they know to new generations of freelance progressive scholars, dilettantes, and philosophers. To create large numbers of crackshot progressive thinkers (and leaders).

Paul,

No, they're not getting any younger but they're minds don't skip a beat. I would welcome any one of them to replace George Bush in 2008.

I like your idea of a "people's university" with free tuition and operated by progressive thinkers. Have you considered contacting any of them with such a proposal?

Well I think it was more than just fear that motivated people to swallow this pill. I think like Rome with the Colosseum, America was suffering in the 90s from bored wife syndrome. Although there was a world trade center attack and Clinton going after Osama, it wasn't marketed like it has been with Bush, and life seemed more like a boring drama or documentary.

Bush gave gullible noncritical thinking Americans more of a Schwarzenegger film. I think some of the rationale comes from titillation.

When I was a kid and had to stay late at school for tornado warnings, some part of me actually wanted the tornado to hit for the sheer adventure of it.

If you have ever debated with a right wing apologist, or read posts on forums from them, I don't get this sense of fear, more like this Rambo fantasy.

Zinn is a great, learned guy, but the large part of progressives know what to do. What is not provided much, is a how to do it. Soccer Moms and Dads need to get on board more. The Rambos need to be converted, and those who don't even know what the Vice-President's name is should also be in our cross hairs.

But how to, is the big question. It is not a simple quick fix answer, nor is stopping a 100 mile freight train quickly. We need dedicated plans by dedicated people with answers that are less idealistic, lacking pragmatism and realism than the following.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNfGyIW7aHM

The right took decades building their stronghold which is far easier to unite under a Gods, Gays and Guns banner because it requires less critical thinking. Critical thinkers are complex.

I would dismiss this as just the ways of an empire, inevitable human societal nature eventually causes the downfall of a great power, but England was far worse than we ever were and they didn't need to completely implode. They don't suffer nearly as much as we do from the above mentioned obstacles we have in our society. Perhaps the fact that outside war has never lived within our shores as it did with Europeans, sets us apart and makes it easy for those to view war as something merely objective.

As a species this knowledge has been available for ages. Just go back and read Voltaire (comes to mind) This issue isn't those who know this, it's the ones who don't.

Ole´ To Professor Zinn

Yes, we are the "Choir" and we need to know that there are more of us out there.

Pakistan has been suffering the effects of President Cheney's and President Musharraf's relationship. When the assasination attempt of Benazir Bhutto failed, Democratic Elections became too high of a risk for Musharraf. So, the powers to be did the next best thing, they created a Coup d´etat. The Coup was not against the Government, it was against the court system.

When large numbers of middle income lawyers protested, they were arrested and taken away by Pakistan´s ISI and secret police.

Instead of demanding the return of "The Order of Law" and freeing all judges and lawyers, Vice President Bush has demanded that "The Free Democratic Elections" go forward.

Naomi Klein has taught us about the use of "Shock and Awe" and the disappearance of protestors or opposition leaders when "The Capitalist Corporatists and their Allies" are enforcing rule and change. "Shock Doctine" by Naomi Klein.

"If one loves Democracy, the argument runs, one must crush its enemies by no matter "What Means"........."If you encourage totalitarian methods, the time will come when those methods will be used against you instead of for you" George Orwell "Animal Farm" the appendix.......

Professor Zinn is right! Terrorists act as individuals or small groups. They act out of hate, anger, revenge, or hopelessness. They have no intention of conquering or occupying any western countries.

Free the Pakistani lawyers and judges now....

No revolution without some bleeding, and not I might add bleeding hearts. Clever, tuned in to reality amerikans have become smug and feel they are participating in change by tapping away here like cyberspace laté machiato woodpeckers. Spitting on the sidewalk or in a starschmux window in currrent 1938 amerika would be a more revolutionary act than the interminable back slapping and intellectual flirting here in alphabet land.

Those of us outside 'merkan matrix applaud your wisdom in seeing the worm in the heart of decaying empire which you are all so intimately a part off but alas we decry your utter and total inability to go out and FIGHT the beast, dismantle the meat machine that your elites have created. Bleed for your ideals, your precious "freedoms" and your once -Gawd help us- "inalienable rights", otherwise write some other nonsense down at starschmux or where ever the modern bohemians gather to protest and "discuss" revolution.

Zinn is right, Blum is right, Petras, Lendeman, Roberts are all right. Your nation is rotten to the core...

Wonderful insight,now roll up your clean sleeves and physically do something about it in your town or city not here in Second Life!!!!

Anybody for the woppocino espresso molotovski before this hellhole blows?

"Dr. Zinn is not only an outstanding professor, but a visionary and inspiration to many of us in academia. I frequently use his book "A People's History of the United States" in my classes."

See what you think of this-one:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/america.htm

Today, I dug out a copy of Walt Whitman's Collected Poems - for some reason I'd forgotten it and it had gotten stashed away somewhere. i opened it up, and these were the words I first saw:

TO THE STATES

To the States or any one of them, or any city of the States,
-resist much, obey little-,
Once unquestioning obedience, once fully enslaved,
Once fully enslaved, no nation, state, city, of this earth, ever afterwards resumes its liberty.

Much better for us in these times than that old chestnut "O Captain, My Captain."

Two quotes spring to mind, after reading the wise Professor's words:

"You can no more win a war, than you can win an earthquake."
[Jeannette Rankin, US pacifist & politician: 1880 - 1973]

And this one by the singer Holly Near:

"Why do we kill people, who kill people, to show that killing people is wrong?"

_______________________

Steven V. Riley says above:
"I know some C-D liberals never hesitate to ridicule religion, but no revolutionary movement can succeed without an underlying spiritual message. Spirituality is the essential ingredient for transformational change."

I like that, -thankyou!
But we have to ensure that the 'rare beast' of anything purely Spiritual is not tainted and confused by the weft and *warp* of clumsily hand-spun 'religions'!
I personally hold the essence of 'Spirit' dear, but notice that when humanity tries cram it into their religions, that is often when the rot sets in...

Spirit can indeed unite all, it is the Tao, the Chi, ~ like the very air, which is available to all who live & breathe, - but mankind's narrow theology invariably sounds the death knell of unity and truth, ~ and that's about the time when disputation, separation, and even the oxymoron of 'holy wars' / Jihad begin...

Truth is, we only ever need to drink from The Source. - Religious interlocution is generally highly suspect.

And yes, there is no progress without unity, -even the dark ones (at present in power) recognise that fact. We could emulate them in one thing only: Try to ensure our Progressive *unity* as best possible, and with a goodly measure of persistence, we will surely win out.

Don't worry be happy. Smiley face time The Wizzards of Oz really know what is happening,
Do NOT mind what that damn dumb dog is allowing you to see.
It has no meaning.
Just listen to the WIZZARDS of OZ. They are the only ones who know what is patheticly happening.
Love, caring, and consideration are out of the opinions, during war!!
Trust the Wizzards of OZ!!
Only they can tell you what is really happening, for the right reasons.
Keep that dog away!!!!

one more thing....
you mentioned Venezuela.
an opening shot at analysis:
http://rwor.org/a/094/chavez-en.html

I'm surprised when I read or hear people say that Bush may declare a state of emergency and cancel the elections. Who the hell do you think Bush is, or even Cheney for that matter? They're only puppets, and so are party leaders. If ever a state of emergency is declared, it will be done so by the collective decision of the entire gang: the puppet masters, party chiefs, most members of the Congress, and the top brass. Don't blame the messengers Bush/Cheney. The entire system is corrupt o the core and only a revolution will fix it.

Revolution is happening -- we just need to look south. Chavez first tried a military coup against the government. It failed, he accepted responsibility, and went to jail. After two years of reflection, they decided it would only succeed if they did it non-violently. Their revolution happened through the ballot box (even in a place with dubious elections). A big part of their organizing and success was educating the people on the People's History - much like Zinn's book. There are a few places where the CIA and its front groups like the "National Endowment for Democracy (NED)" were able to rig the elections through major psy-ops or tampering, but a few (nameley Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, and Uruguay) made it despite the meddling. Maybe next time Peru and Mexico will have their honest elections. Latin America is leading the way in giving power to the people!

Put anyone you want in the White House. In the future, the White House could be kept as an insane asylum for crazy billionaires. The nuclear button could be connected to a buzzer on the psychiatric nurse's desk.

Is there any way to get the full text of Zinn's speech at Morse Auditorium? Please help.
Thank you.

Yes It will take a Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky in the White House to change this country and the world.

Exactly right Gail

Why on earth would anyone expect our sham Congress and sham courts to do anything about the sham war and sham anti-terror legislation? Or for that matter for the sham mainstream media to truthfully report on the issues?

Sorry, am not able to wax philosophical. I can only do what I do, track legislation's, resolution's, special committee's, the yea's, the nay's and actively protest, as I have since Vietnam, am an owner/organizer of my chapter of a group that has a penchant for a certain color, help out my local VETS4PEACE and whomever needs a hand. I do, absolutely agree with Zinn. There is also alot to be said about the power of one, which becomes 2 and so forth. For myself, that is all I ever claim to speak for, there are many things relevant to today in, from 1971, Marvin Gaye's 'What's Going on..'I am in my 50's and the whole thing about history repeating itself.........
"A nation can survive it's fools and even the ambitious...but it cannot survive treason from within...for the traitor appears not to be a traitor...he rots the soul of a nation...he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist"
Marcus Tullius Cicero Roman Orator 106 - 43 B.C.
Do you imagine, even though he mispronounces 'nuclear' as 'nucular', that bush may be able to read this, would not make a difference anyway, he is madman, led by one who is pure, unadulterated evil...
All I know is I will never stop, I will be a part of all that demand an end to this decline in humanity in 6 short years, if it continues, God Or Goddess Help Us All.

It's not enough to say I've withdrawn from the government, and then go out for pizza. The pizza part is fine.

There will be no democratic revolution, only the usual autocratic revolution, unless we start to form a new electoral system now.

I recommend that we start voting online using a real voting system, not the current lesser of two evils system. Then we form a shadow Congress. Get to work. Pass laws. Challenge the old government to real democracy.

It's the government that's the sham.

Zinn is absolutely right about revolution being essential in the US now. Unfortunately, hedonistic comfort levels are still too high, but there are a thousand global forces now in play that will bring comfort levels way down, to something similar to what Argentinians or eastern Europeans know too well. Eventually, when it's almost too late to save what was once a beacon of liberty (and personal responsibility) from being doused by a new incarnation of iron-fisted fascism, common people in America will summon the courage to revolt, if there's some leadership worth following.

[quote]suzarin November 7th, 2007 8:47 pm -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi ... was murdered on 30th Jan. 1948. He went to South Africa in May 1893 and left it for good in Jan. 1915.[/quote]

Oops, sorry about that. Don't know where I got that ridiculous date error. Probably my own fault.

[quote]The point that Gandhism had its historical context is too obvious to be untrue, but whether Gandhian method would have succeeded in other contexts also is a hypothetical question.[/quote]

That IS the point. As I said: "In general, it needs to be acknowledged that Gandhi's brand of 'absolute pacificism' is at least somewhat circumstantial." While acknowledging the good intentions, I remain highly doubtful that it would have saved the Jews and others from the Nazis. And I'm skeptical, to say the least, about its likely success against the (proto-)fascist regime that has evolved and is evolving in the US.

We each need to do our part; that is the message- action is the result. Peace is complex but peace is possible. Build it in your heart, your home, your community. Think global and act local. We can each use our talents to be the change; we must each work to make it happen. Everything we do ripples out and impacts the whole. Whether we like it or not we are all connected. All we need is the tipping point. Thank you HZ and so many weighting us toward peace.

geoff29, You are welcome anytime at my table although I suspect the bike ride might be a killer. Perhaps, siouxrose, you and I can arrange a meet on the dream plane instead. I need my dreamer batteries re-charged anyway. I find too often that posting at this site resurrects my old warrior self, and I build walls sometimes when I know that is not helpful to me or anyone else here. Glad you post here. It always gives me pause and reflection time to read your contributions.

Arvy,(posting November 7th, 2007 3:03 pm),

The comments about Gandhi and Gandhism show a lack of sufficient homework. Here are a few factual corrections. Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, whose praxis and theory of political agitation are together known as 'Gandhism', was murdered on 30th Jan. 1948. He went to South Africa in May 1893 and left it for good in Jan. 1915.
As to your comment that Gandhi 'failed' in South Africa, please read about Nelson Mandela and his fight against apartheid. It was not just 'some measure of success' that Gandhi could make in India, but phenominal. I am from India and had taught History at the University level. I wish the sources from where Arvy 'stole' the comments were chosen with a little more care.
As far as I know, Ferhat Abbas did not acknowledge that his method was 'Gandhian' even in his early phase of political activities as an 'assimilationist'. Usually, political activists like Mandela and Martin Luther King are referred to as 'Gandhians' but not Abbas.
The point that Gandhism had its historical context is too obvious to be untrue, but whether Gandhian method would have succeeded in other contexts also is a hypothetical question. The repeated references to Gandhi and Gandhism even today may be seen as the proof of their relevance in the present world also.
I have read "A People's History". Is there any way to get the full text of Zinn's speech at Morse Auditorium? Please help.
Thank you.

Look at the price of gold almost $850/ounce. In 2002 it was at ~$300/ounce. Look at the price of oil nearing $100 a barrel. Look at all these key indicators. The dollar is done!! We are witnessing a major catastrophe right in front of our eyes. Where are the alarm bells in the media?? Why isn't the FED scrambling to reinstitute dollar hegemony around the world?? There can only be one reason for this. This is no accident, it is all a premeditated strategy to destroy the dollar. Since the dollar is the "standard currency" around the world, you bring the dollar down and you can control the world markets. This is all a precusor to introduce the Amero and bring the US, Canada, and Mexico under another "union" sponsered by the international fascist money changers. This is just another piece in their puzzle of world domination.
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws." ~Mayer Amschel Rothschild

"It will take a Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky in the White House to change this country and the world."

Gail,

Were it that easy. No, what it will take is a populace that has the courage and the temerity to demand democracy and justice and not settle for less. We must be willing to walk our talk and get together with others to take this country back. It sounds trite, but history shows that it's the only way that free, truly democratic nations are born. Our nation is now neither.

The fortunate thing is that there is a guide for this. It's been done before and must be done again. What was once born in tyranny as a way out of tyranny, shows us what it takes to break free and start anew. It won't be easy or nice, but it's the only way - those in power will not let go willingly. History is our guide (and Zinn knows history).

"Sorry to be off subject but I wish to speak to the falling dollar."

That's not entirely off the subject as the dollar's status as the world reserve currency has a very large role in US geopolitical strategies, certainly not excluding its 'sham' wars.

Former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, Paul Craig Roberts, has written a good article about that ( http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts11072007.html ). Brief excerpt:

[quote]The macho super patriots who support the Bush regime still haven't caught on that US superpower status rests on the dollar being the reserve currency, not on a military unable to occupy Baghdad. If the dollar were not the world currency, the US would have to earn enough foreign currencies to pay for its 737 oversees bases, an impossibility considering America's $800 billion trade deficit.

When the dollar ceases to be the reserve currency, foreigners will cease to finance the US trade and budget deficits, and the American Empire along with its wars will disappear overnight. Perhaps Bush will be able to get a World Bank loan, or maybe one from the "Chavez bank," to bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan.

[...]

In his state of the nation message last year, Russian president Vladimir Putin said that Bush's blathering about democracy was nothing but a cloak for the pursuit of American self-interests at the expense of other peoples. "We are aware what is going on in the world. Comrade wolf knows whom to eat, and he eats without listening, and he's clearly not going to listen to anyone." In May 2007, Putin criticized the neocon regime in Washington for "disrespect for human life" and "claims to global exclusiveness, just as it was in the time of the Third Reich."

Even America's British allies regard President Bush as a threat to world peace and the second most dangerous man alive. Bush is edged out in polls by Osama bin Laden, but is regarded as more dangerous than Iran's demonized president and North Korea's Kim Jong-il.

President Bush has achieved his dismal world standing despite spending $1.6 billion of hard-pressed Americans' tax money on public relations between 2003 and 2006.[/quote]

geoff29,

The internet is merely a medium, it's the organizing of bright and concerned people into task-oriented communities -- and data noise into thematic content -- that needs to be done.

My own pipedream would be something like SourceForge (writing open source software) into a progressive policy forge. Charged with tackling various topics, writing policy, redesigning government, etc. No power whatsoever initially, but power may eventually come -- as others use/improve the ideas at-will. An emergent power. Go-to idea people, problem-solvers in an era somewhat devoid of them.

lillulu November 7th, 2007 7:56 pm,
Sorry to be off subject but I wish to speak to the falling dollar. If you listen to Secretary of Treasury Paulson you would think that the U.S. has a commitment to a strong dollar-this is a lie. The U.S. could "defend" the dollar and twist arms of other Nations to defend the dollar by selling their own on the international market but the U.S. wants a weak dollar. It is the only way we can confront the trade imbalance. A weaker dollar makes U.S. product cheaper in the foreign markets. Today there was a blow-out of the dollar and it fell like a rock. I bought Australian dollars late last year at .86 and now they are .94. It is expected that the Aussie dollar will soon have parity with the greenback. If you want to get some of you savings out of the dollar then Everbank is a good choice, you don't have to cross any borders, it's FIDC insured and they do all the tax stuff so you don't have to mess with that other than pay the taxes.

lillulu,

(I'm currently stuck on this discussion)

Money is a fictitious creation. People believe that bits of metal, paper, or electronic information have meaning and value. It's enough to make one understand the arguments of atheists.

However, weapons have a reality to them that money does not. If you are a war profiteer, what you do is surround yourself with a military and money is irrelevant.

J D Smith November 7th, 2007 5:41 pm
A great idea, and you are correct in thinking that if everyone started to consume only what they needed the message would be loud and clear. I don't live in the States now but I visit my son and exchange ideas with his peers, all in the 40s age group and they think I am some sort of left-over hippie. They are not going to consume less. I admit that my sampling of Americana is too small to represent the total but from where I sit "it ain't gonna happen".

The American dollar is becoming more and more lower in value compared to other countries. Now the Canadian dollar is worth more than the U.S. dollar, something I've never seen in my lifetime.

Gee, how are we going to afford to wage war anymore? Shall we beg for alms from our friends or what? Maybe a miracle will happen and the war profiteering criminals who have gotten obscenely rich from the "war" on Iraq will pay for the wars themselves instead of us tax payers paying for everything.

Paul Bramscher,

"create some sort of people's university or think tank."

you mean like the internet?

provided one has the wherewithal to get past the trappings of shopping and deviance, etc.

Gail,

I disagree about Zinn or Chomsky in positions of political power. They are brilliant scholars, and arguably their "job" is to pass on what they know to as many people as possible, to teach and counsel us.

Higher education is suffering these days (I've worked at a Big-10 the past decade). History and social science departments are cash strapped, tenure is very hard to obtain, tuition has grossly outpaced inflation, and Chomsky, Zinn and Vidal have something in common: they're not getting any younger.

The best legacy they could leave us, arguably, is to create some sort of people's university or think tank, without tuition fees, and pass on what they know to new generations of freelance progressive scholars, dilettantes, and philosophers. To create large numbers of crackshot progressive thinkers (and leaders).

I too have thought that the "real" leaders were Zinn, Chomsky, Moyers, Gore Vidal, et al. I doubt that they would ever take over the white house, though, because for almost every occupant it's a tragic situation. No one seems to come out unscathed.

please may Howard Zinn keep educating us!

Siouxrose,

thanks for the lunch invite the other day! and starofthesea too! it has taken this long to catch up what with the opening and closing doors. nowadays I travel (almost) everywhere by bike (so fed up am I) so it would take me quite a few days for me to make it there!

Regarding science, the internet, and such, someone once pointed out to me, "there is never really any going back." So, looking over history, the attempts to deprive us of our new ways of expression have never been successful in the long run.

I like the business of "string theory," what little I can make of it. Perhaps science is just another way of getting at the truth even if that truth has been known for aeons.

Zinn said a revolution is the only option Americans have to bring about change and charged his audience of more than 200 to form a "people's" movement toward a "different world."

It will take a Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky in the White House to change this country and the world.

KEY 89 and CLOUDY CONNOTATION: You have contributed interesting, evocative insights/material to the forum. Thank you for expanding collective thought!

ah, KIVALS: recall that little adage about the "best laid plans..." Here's it's application to your "separation theory" as per the elites: remember how the British royal family got that pesky bleeding problem from centuries of in-breeding?

Nature takes a hand in these things. Always. Science for its genius and hubris never has the wit, ways or means to factor every variable into its "let's play God" equations. Thus: Shit happens!

Steven Riley: It would be great if religions did get behind peace, but in the US the force behing Bush IS fundamentalist Christianity and its Zionist equivalents. Also, let us please not presume that religion and spirituality are the same thing! Spirituality is broad based without doctrine or dicta, and religion has increasingly come to emulate those rigid schools of authoritarianism that are antithetical to human progress and the ideals of democracy.

Key89 Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your very cogent contribution. Indeed! Indeed!!! Keep on writing, but just a suggestion, here on CD, the shorter the post, the more likely it is to get read. I am trying to be more succinct and learning from some very accomplished posters. I read your entire offering because I am hungry for fresh perspectives, and quite frankly,for some hope. You have provided both!

"as someone said, zinn is speaking to the converted."

Don't see it that way. I think Zinn was speaking to the audience he had at Morse Auditorium and to whomever else might be prepared to listen. The problem is that many (most?) are not prepared to 'lend their ears' to anyone or anything other than reflections of their own preconceived ideas.

as someone said, zinn is speaking to the converted. he should be speaking to aipac supporters. the war in iraq and the future war in iran are greatly supported and encouraged by aipac/israel.
to me it is not a coincidence that the two dems and even the one republican who proclaimed this weekend that they would support the nomination of torture supporter mukasey are jewish (schumer, feinstein, specter) i think they think torture is helpful for israel. it makes no sense otherwise.

Personally I don't think there is anyway to prevent the demise of the "American System". All empires fall, there is no exception throughout history. I feel that we are in the period of "metamophosis" right at this very monment. There is no way of correcting the current political system, because it is inherently flawed. This country was built on the backs of "slave labor". We wiped out an entire indigenous population to claim this land as "ours". The founders of this country were rich aristocrats, and a large majority of them were british double agents. The only "revolution" that will take place will be a total collapse of the current system. It will be very painful to most, because americans have become so dependant on the current "convienient store, fast food culture" high on consumption and low on enrichment. We have been brainwashed into believing that we are "entitled" to our standard of living. It is going to be hard, but keep in mind that nothing great ever emerged without a struggle.

I have read Zinn's "A People's History of the United States 1492-Present (1995)" and other writing available on the internet and appreciate his work more than I can express.

That being said, Zinn and most others pleading for the changes they want miss a very key problem:

Our government receives its instructions and motivation for action from King Commerce.

AND

King Commerce is pleased with things the way they are.

A "Revolution" to change the instructions and motivation given to our government can be fought by individuals without reference to groups but groups are also good.

The "revolution", while not easy, is simple:

Write your Congressman and Senators.

Inform them that until such time as our government ceases to meddle in the affairs of other nations on behalf of King Commerce you (or we in the case of groups) will cease all optional consumption - THEN CEASE.

Each individual must decide what consumption is optional and there are some whose consumption is all necessary. Most of us could consume less and many could consume much less.

When and if enough individuals/groups start the "Revolution" King Commerce will instruct our government to bring the troops home.

The only way to get a large number of students to rise up in opposition to the war would be to reinstate the draft. They'll soon wake up! NIMBY is a sickness.

I keep a copy of Zinn's "Peoples' History of the United States" on the front page of my web-site because it is such ESSENTIAL INFORMATION that the Powers That Be DON'T WANT US TO KNOW.

http://www.abidemiracles.com/ZINN.doc

MSWord file, 380 pages download, prints out 2-pages-up landscape orientation.

Everybody ought to know that the USCoverment has been tyrannical and genocidal since day one.

Chaiyah
www.abidemiracles.com

In case anyone cares--Mr. Zinn is a long-time endorser of the courageous, "under-inked", American Patriot Dennis Kucinich.

collidingrivers has hit the nail on the head: "Zinn is brilliant, and his text should be required reading- at the High School level, and perhaps excerpts for the lower grades- why not educate everyone about the historical truth at younger ages, so we don't have to find out in college that everything we learned about American history until then was so… slanted."

By the time Americans reach college, it's all remedial. When I read published Cultural Studies articles by brilliant American graduate students, I'm just stunned by the paranoia in them. They are so traumatized by the truth that they begin to see fascism everywhere -- even in texts where it doesn't really exist.

American public education is a crime -- a violence done to generation after generation of young Americans.

The motto of my column, www.raycarlson.com is "Connecting the Dots Between World Events." If there is one God of or law within the Universe to which I can faithfully adhere, it is the God of Critical Thinking, also known as the God of Reason. In the classical sense, that may make me a deist. However, I do believe in the theistic concept of revelation, not from an outer concept of God, but from an inner collective experience of humanity.

Call me naive, but something within my ancient strands of DNA remembers what was known as "The Renaissance," "The Enlightenment," and "The Age of Reason". It is this part of me that realizes that time, like the very strands of DNA to which I refer, has a cyclical and spiraling nature.

What encourages me to make this pronouncement is my faith, based upon history, science, and reason, that as the chasm between corporate syllogism and collective reality becomes more vast, there will be an increasing number of ways in which the truth becomes obvious, not only to the educated, but to the masses. And at some critical point, that truth will either manifest in some type of adaptive change, or it won't and we'll go the way of Atlantis, Pompeii, and Machu Picchu, . From one perspective, it is a race against time, but from a slightly different perspective, it is time against the race, the human race. It is during such a time as this that voices of those such as Howard Zinn spark within me an inner flame that sustains me within this time of great darkness on Earth.

I believe that there is a reason why fascist governments first seem to target those who are educated and intelligent. It is because this is the group of people most likely to connect the dots and challenge the existing power structure with critical thought. Even with all the challenges we face at this precarious point in our conception of linear time, those of us who are critically thinking, educated, and dedicated to the cause of social justice are organizing, through the power of the Internet. Thus, I assert that the Revolution of which we speak is actually happening in the present. By the time one sees the Revolution in action, it is already past the median line. Its roots are deep within the collective psyche of humanity.

If you examine hair under a microscope, what you see is that straight hair is spiralled and curly hair is straight. So it is, I argue, with our awarness. I assert that what we are looking at right now will look different in historical perspective, although currently it looks like the opposite of what it is. Another concept that sounds really cerebral but is actually quite simple is Haeckel's theory, that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory

Someone responding to this article about Howard Zinn, "Jack37," mentioned those cheering the Boston Red Sox, who numbered in the tens of thousands and far outnumbered the antiwar activists. What Jack37 did not mention is that the same media that quickly proclaimed this baseball team to have won the World Series twice in four years, neglected to point out that before their first win four years ago, the Red Sox were considered chronic losers in the world of baseball, with far fewer demonstrating fans than even the Antiwar movement. And why is this? I believe it is because few in America want to be on the side of a perceived "loser." With a single win, the team was magically transformed into another American icon of come-from-behind victory. And fitting to my analogy here, within four years the team turned into a post-modern American legend.

Remember the words of JFK? "Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan." Or even remember the record of his opponent, Richard Nixon, before and after the 1968 elections. Before 1968, we thought we wouldn't have Nixon to kick (us) around anymore, but afterward, his victory turned into the 1972 Republican landslide. In 1972, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who voted against Nixon. Two years later, after Watergate, you'd be equally hard-pressed to find anyone who voted for him.

Finally, I wish to say that the spiral nature of time and history gives us analogies, but not exact parallels, the same way in which I may be LIKE my father or mother, but I am neither my father nor mother. Thus, this war may be LIKE Vietnam but it isn't exactly the same. In the same way, America in 2007 may be LIKE Nazi Germany in the 1930s, but is not exactly the same. Therefore, there is still hope. Perhaps I for one need to take breaks from the mass media so as to fall away from their hypnotic spell suggesting that we are powerless. Perhaps each of us who wants to be a part of a real Revolution in America needs to find within ourselves the source of our own reasoning, which is the same source as our power. The more of us in touch with our inner empowerment and outer determination to bring about social justice, the greater chance such a movement has of success.

www.raycarlson.com

A revolution never come with a warning
A revolution never sends you an omen
A revolution just arrive like the morning
Ring the alarm we come to wake up the snoring

They tellin' you to never worry about the future
They tellin' you to never worry about the torture
They tellin' you that you will never see the horror
Spend it all today, we will bill you tomorrow
Three piece suits and bank accounts in Bahamas
Wall street crime will never send you to the slammer
Tell all the children in the arms of their mamas
The F-15 is a homicide bomber

TV commercials for a pop-a-pill culture
Drug companies circle in like a vulture
Am-Iraqi babies with a G.I. Joe father
Ten years from now is anybody gonna bother?

Yell Fire, yo, yo, yo
Here we come here we come
Yell Fire, yo, yo , yo, yo
(A Revolution will come)

Michael Franti, "Yell Fire"

cloudy connotation---your discussion is exactly what I mean when I talk about rigged elections and the "circus" that MSM wants us to be obsessed with watching. Keep the sleeping giant sleeping---in a daze, because when it wakes up (IF) the ruling elite are in for some very hard times. Then again, they have some awfully big weapons and it would seem, no compunction about crushing all who oppose them both violent opposition and the non-violent. I think we need to reach deeper for some core beliefs about the struggle between the Light and the dark forces. In the final analysis, for me it's not about prevailing, it's about aligning with the Highest purpose, that is Light, service to others as opposed to self service. This is an ongoing drama in the Cosmos.

cloudyconnotation,

Interesting comment. I like the Hercules-hydra image, though I have usually thought of the struggle more as that of an egoist filled with hubris trying to hold a disoriented tiger (the masses) by the tail as he hastily tries to construct a cage before the tiger gets its bearings.

Certainly the recognition that the Internet and other modern communications systems allow the common people to connect and organize as never before motivates the elites to accelerate their program to take total control. I believe there are other factors as well, including peak oil and modern medical advances.

If the human race were divided into two general groups, with one group having much greater power and wealth than the other group, then it would be a simple matter to apportion energy resources and medical resources, would it not? If the teeming masses know little of what is actually occurring, then the elites can use members of the lower class as slaves, including sex slaves, and as organ donors, involuntary organ donors. And if very sophisticated and expensive medical procedures are developed, wouldn't the elites want to make sure they are the beneficiaries, and societal resources are not wasted by the use of such procedures on the common people?

And as knowledge of genetics advances to the point that designer babies are feasible, would not the elites want to have a monopoly on children who are genetically enhanced and are a cut above the competition?

And as robotics and Artificial Intelligence develop, wouldn't elites want a monopoly on their use, helping them establish a dominance in control and force that could not be challenged?

It seems there are many reasons the elites would want to create separation at this juncture, and they seem to be creating it as quickly as they can.

cloudyconnotation November 7th, 2007 2:31 pm -- "... the Gandhian approach is definitely, in the long run the most logical (despite its probability of lack of instant results ..."

I'm sure that we'd all like to agree with that, but there are some less hopeful aspects of the methodology, its era and its circumstances, that need to be kept in mind. (I've stolen from several sources; not all original thinking.)

First, Gandhi only enjoyed some measure of success because British India did not have a large, indigenous, white settler population. No large body of white people who remember that two generations ago they were white trash scum. Now they are landed lords. But if they lose they will be white trash scum again. For them the socioeconomic stakes are too high to allow for sentiment.

Gandhian methods were used in Algeria by Ferhat Abbas in the 1940s and by Mohandas Gandhi in South Africa in the 1950's. They failed completely and utterly. They failed because the white settlers had no problem with using as much violence as they had to to preserve their privileged status quo. A British mother would be reluctant to send her son to fight in India to preserve the Raj. A white settler mother will sternly bury her fifth son to protect her way of life.

One needs to consider which parallels, if any, exist in today's US of A and amongst its 'elite establishment' in particular.

In general, it needs to be acknowledged that Gandhi's brand of 'absolute pacificism' is at least somewhat circumstantial. Undoubtedly with the best intentions he casually and naively suggests, for example, that the Jews could use his method of satyagraha (which he developed and honed against the far milder British) against the Nazis. Somehow, I doubt that they, or any fascists, would be very impressed, let alone be prepared to bow to such 'reasonable' forms of protest.

Nobody is talking about the fact that in the time of social-graphs and other hyped social media there are no real social political movements. It is easier to organize than 30 years ago and still no major voices are heard. What did the poet say...not with a bang but with whimper???

American Revolution is copyrighted by GM I think :) irony of ironies...

...something i wrote a few years back, when the veil was first being lifted, and plato's cave started gettin brighter... kinda related to the zinn article, ....what is it that is goin to be that starts to facilitate change?...has it begun, or is it stunted?...i really do not know...peace all...oh ya, i dont really expect people to read this, i just posted it for interest sake for those that do

Hercules and the many headed hydra - the people are the enemy…

"War among civilizations does not erupt because men are unreasonable, but rather because existential fear drives them to it" , so says a recent online article from www.atimes.com , and I would agree. The fear in question is debatable, but judging from history I would suggest that the fear is felt primarily among ruling elites regarding an increase in the erosion of their power. I recently read the book The Many Headed Hydra by Peter Linebaugh and Marcus Rediker. In it, they argue quite effectively, that throughout the past 2000 years or so from Greek Hellenism to American materialism the elites have viewed the masses as a beast that should be controlled and slayed by Hercules (symbolically represented by the elites). An interesting point of note is that one of America's 'founding fathers', John Adams originally suggested that the great seal of the United Sates be the image of Hercules, the hydra slayer.
The empires of Rome and America have much in common, more specifically they were both Herculean in the suppression of their own masses and those of conquered people: Both America and Rome were slayers of the many headed hydra (or working and poor people, the majority of the population). Some might ask 'what good does it do to think on such grand terms'? how does understanding Rome, help us understand the current problems with the American empire? Well, the classic historian answer is in order to understand the present, one must understand the past, and if one considers the idea that time is circular (or repetitive) as opposed to the common western perception that time is linear (straight, with a clear beginning and ending), then understanding the past may help better prepare us (the people) now, in order to effectively resist the oppression of the current American lead globalized empire. Also, it may be of interest to note that those in circles of power are thinking on such grand terms (and it can only be beneficial to the struggle, to understand how elites in control think). According to a March 2003 New York Times article; In August of 2001, Donald Rumsfeld commissioned a study headed by Newt Gingrich, to study ancient empires: the study found that the Chinese empire was the most 'successful' because it had such an influential and strong culture, my inferred conclusion of the study was that in order for the U.S to remain powerful, it had to remain militarily dominant but it also had to be dominant in all the pillars of power, especially culture. However this is nothing new to geopolitical thought, stipulations of the Marshall Plan required more American cinema screens than French made films in France. Control of culture is vital for power structures.
Aside from wondering why the U.S government was studying ancient empires a month before sept.11.01 -- (however, let us not forget the 'other' sept.11, sept.11.1973, when the democratically elected Chilean gov't was violently overthrown by a U.S sponsored coup resulting in far greater relative human lives lost compared to the American sept.11.01, which was also, no doubt a tragedy-the loss of life should never be celebrated, excused, or justified)-back to the 'American' sept.11 (2001)--, one might ask, 'why now'? Why is the American government being so blatantly aggressive with its domestic and foreign policy? (i.e. the Bush doctrine of first strike) could it be that, as a result of the rapidly growing social inequalities worldwide and the spread of information via communication technologies such as the internet, the elites (globally, but specifically in the U.S) are beginning to fear that the hydra is preparing to confront Hercules? That former enslaved and oppressed peoples, with their growing populations are going to begin to demand their deserved right to fair access to resources such as fresh water and oil (both of which are on the decline-and represent another possibility for blatant military aggression, which was indicated in a Pentagon report on global warming that shows Bush and crew are well aware of the coming environmental dangers, the report can be found at: www.ems.org/climate/pentagon_climate_change.html ), could it be that workers at home might begin to realize they have been getting the crumbs off the floor in regards to access to resources and wealth generated by their state, economical and military rulers? and could it be that the American government feels that its culture industry has entrenched itself firmly enough into the global market that it can 'successfully' cement its status of economic and military empire over the globe?, I think the study commissioned by Rumsfeld, the Bush doctrine of first strike, and the recent actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Haiti (and possible coming actions against Iran, Venezuela, China, fill in the blank) strongly suggest that this is the case.
However, throughout history all empires have fallen, and the American empire will probably be no different, some suggest the American empire is already on the decline. A series of books are slowly being released under the collective title of 'the American empire project'( www.americanempireprogect.org ), some of the individual books currently in release are Hegemony or Survival by Noam Chomsky and Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson, both discuss the consequences of U.S imperialism and hint at the potential negative repercussions once the empire collapses. This is when the method of battle by the many headed hydra becomes important. Violence begets more violence, and an empire that falls violently (especially a nuclear one) will probably be replaced by violence and destruction, or at the very least the seeds for a possible future violent overthrow will be planted. Considering the massive military might in the control of the U.S (and global) elites, one must rationalize that a violent confrontation (however desirable this may seem to some, including myself at times) must be avoided if any degree of humanity is to exist after the collapse.
Because of the inevitability of collapse, there is all the reason in the world to resist this empire (and its global economic and military garrisons) and to resist it provocatively and directly yet most importantly, with non-violence. On a small scale, individuals can speak up more with those that matter (family and friends, start first with them), start spraying 'down with capitalism/power/hierarchy/the state, etc.' or 'fuck bush' (Im sure people can be more creative), if you can financially afford to do so, start to use the maximum number of sick days at work (unless your working for a progressive cause of course), also, something I saw on the website www.commondreams.org ; hang protest banners over freeways and overpasses-where the rush hour traffic will see ( www.freewayblogger.com ), organize events with friends and others-be creative….there are plenty of other ways, but be provocative and direct and most importantly non-violent, the Gandhian approach is definitely, in the long run the most logical (despite its probability of lack of instant results, but patience is the key-and I do realize that this view may be privileged, but non-violence is truly the only way). With the help of the people/hydra or not, this Hercules will meets its demise- will it fall peacefully or violently is up to us-the people; and the atmosphere that it falls in will most likely be the atmosphere that replaces it.

Zinn is brilliant, and his text should be required reading- at the High School level, and perhaps excerpts for the lower grades- why not educate everyone about the historical truth at younger ages, so we don't have to find out in college that everything we learned about American history until then was so... slanted. So much missing about history, not sure even Zinn mentions that without St. Eustatius, a tiny island in the Dutch Netherlands, the Untied States would not have won the Revolutionary War They were then the trade center of the entire New World, supplied the ammo/arms, and lots more- and then were later vanquished by the vengeful Bristish, and so declined completely as a thriving trading center, lost everything for supporting the U.S.A, and now, they don't even receive acknowledement in our own history books.
Venerated Marine Corps General (and American hero- esp. for exposing a huge plot led in part by US business tycoons to overthrow US government in 1930s), Smedley Butler wrote, "War is a Racket" (maybe 1936, and available online, an important, overlooked classic), about how even then, he saw through the government and corporate scam to make money from wars. It's nothing new, as Zinn also states, regarding other aspects of such deception which oils the war machine.
We should feel thankful to teachers like "claudius", unafraid to teach the truth, especially during these uncertain time (when the list "to-be-watched" intellectuals grows daily).
We already are in a revolution. People are tired of the lies. You hear that everywhere, even from those whom identify themselves as "Republican": nobody likes the way this country has declined. And most can now see, the writing is clearly on the wall. This may be a peaceful revolution, but it's growing, and change will happen, no way around it.

Howard Zinn has always been on target, but as a nation, we continue to ignore his prophetic messages as they are so counter to our delusional American culture.

Yes Zinn is speaking to the choir, and rightly so, because the choir is there to feed off his energies as well as the energies amongst themselves. Radical social change never comes from the top, always from below.

In my mind, at this time in history, American democracy can only be saved by a revolutionary movement and certainly it must start in our colleges and universities, where true critical analysis is meant to be born.

No longer do we have a civic press that monitors the health of our democracy. TV is no better, entertaining our nation to death. Much of the USA sits with beer in hand, cheering in the Roman Coliseum.

So what Zinn is doing is the necessary task of educating the radicals, educating those who choose to be radical. That is where it all begins.

Hopefully then such a movement will awaken some of our churches to join their ranks, though I have little hope for the fundamentalists.

I know some CD liberals never hesitate to ridicule religion, but no revolutionary movement can succeed without an underlying spiritual message. Sprituality is the essential ingredient for transformational change.

My hope lies with the Catholic PAX CHRISTI movement, the Catholic JUST FAITH movement, the mainstreaam Protestant CALL TO RENEWAL movement (Sojouners magazine and Rev Jim Wallis), and Tikkun Magazine's Rabbi Michael Lerner's non-denominational SPIRITUAL PROGRESSIVES movement.

Put this all together and there is hope for a successful revolutionary movement in America.
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"Zinn said a revolution is the only option Americans have to bring about change and charged his audience of more than 200 to form a 'people's' movement toward a 'different world.'"

Why isn't this article entitled ZINN CALLS FOR REVOLUTION.

In any case, it's somewhat heartening to see that at least one professor has arrived at the same conclusion that I reached some time ago.

To repeat what I've said elsewhere, the problem isn't any particular politician or political party, nor even a particular administration. It goes much deeper than that. The system itself has been totally corrupted and following the rules established by its corrupters is not an answer. It would seem (to me at least) painfully obvious that no such fundamental problem can or will be fixed through a process of adhering to the rules established for its perpetuation.

It's either a second American Revolution or surrender. There's no third option, folks. Obedience = surrender.

Zinn's book "A People's History of the United States" is what inspired me to get involved in politics in the first place.

Small groups and individuals do make a difference.

War is a Business.

The Business of Amerika is War.

:^(

Zinn is one of the few voices of sweet reason crying in the wilderness of our decaying post-democratic Amerikan empire.

He has more knowledge and wisdom in his pinky toe than the entire motley gang of neocon politicians, policy bloviators, and wingnut infotainwhores have in their collective animated corpses.

From a psychological perspective, it's important to consider how and why White House warmongering has proven so effective. I've tried to address these questions in a 10-minute online video entitled "Resisting the Drums of War." It examines how the Bush administration has promoted the misguided and destructive war in Iraq by targeting five core concerns that often govern our lives--concerns about vulnerability, injustice, distrust, superiority, and helplessness. Looking ahead, the continuing occupation of Iraq--or an attack on Iran--will likely be sold to us in much the same way. The video examines these warmongering appeals and offers suggestions for how to counter them. It's available for viewing HERE.

"Business is war."

"The business of America is business".

Zinn's "History of the U.S" will stand as a watershed---a book so well researched that teachers can actually gain from it the confidence to believe and teach the concept that history is either about learning from mistakes and making progress, or it's pile of worthless shit about enshrining raw power (see "The History Channel") and continuing oppression, first in the minds of the young....Benumbed as I've felt since before the 2000 "election" by the Bush League, I still CAN'T BELIEVE that tens of thousands of people turned out in Boston to celebrate the FUCKING RED SOX and less than 100th of that number turned out 10/27 to protest the killing and murder of brothers and sisters around the world at U.S. hands, for the U.S. LIFESTYLE WARS....I notice the phrase above that there's "a stigma with activism" and see how deeply enslaved we are becoming---first, like all slaves, of ourselves and our ignorance of each other, encouraged every step by the fucking TV....

I admire Professor Zinn, not only for his unwavering and untiring dissent but also for his seemingly unflappable optimism. At a time when the cynicism of "Go, lemming, go!" is becoming ever more attractive, Zinn never stops. As old as he is, as much as he has seen, he still believes change can be made.

Keep going, Professor Zinn. Remind us, always, that hope is not dead.

As usual Howard Zinn clearly defines the state of America today. Saying we need to "withdraw our obedience from our government" is great but he is speaking to the choir. He should be speaking to the "good Germans" in our government and our corporations. They are the ones who are running the show. To get even more insight as to where our country is headed read Jack London's IRON HEEL.
Hoa binh

Dr. Zinn is not only an outstanding professor, but a visionary and inspiration to many of us in academia. I frequently use his book "A People's History of the United States" in my classes.

Its unfortunate there are so few students willing to organize against the military empire or the destruction and contamination of the environment. I guess they want a piece of the pie, if there is any left.

We need more Howard Zinns. Not to participate in activism against wars is to accept defeat.