Where's my bumper sticker: Feinstein and Schumer condone torture

Water-boarding is so clearly torture and torture is so clearly evil that the inability of Western governments, politicians and commentariats to clearly renounce the practice can only be damning. These are wicked people. And they represent us.

What happened the last time someone in Congress tried to pass a law banning waterboarding? ..

(Amendment to Military Commissions Act of 2006)
"Several amendments were proposed before final passage of the bill by the senate; all were defeated. Among them were an amendment by Robert Byrd which would have added a sunset provision after five years, an amendment by Ted Kennedy which would have outlawed specific interrogation techniques including waterboarding (SA.5088[11]), and an amendment by Arlen Specter (R-PA) and Patrick Leahy (D-VT) preserving habeas corpus. Specter's amendment was rejected by a vote of 51-48. Specter voted for the bill despite the defeat of his amendment. The bill was finally passed by the house on September 29, 2006 and presented to the President for signing on October 10, 2006[12]."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_2006#_note-9

It was defeated.

(Sorry for the lengthy comment.)

On the Amendment (Kennedy Amdt. No. 5088 ), September 28, 2006, how did Senators vote? ..

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 2nd Session
as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate
Vote Summary
Question: On the Amendment (Kennedy Amdt. No. 5088 )
Vote Number: 258 Vote Date: September 28, 2006, 05:19 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Amendment Rejected
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 5088 to S. 3930
Statement of Purpose: To provide for the protection of United States persons in the implementation of treaty obligations.
Vote Counts: YEAs 46
NAYs 53
Not Voting 1

Alphabetical by Senator Name
Akaka (D-HI), Yea
Alexander (R-TN), Nay
Allard (R-CO), Nay
Allen (R-VA), Nay
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Nay
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Yea
Bond (R-MO), Nay
Boxer (D-CA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Nay
Bunning (R-KY), Nay
Burns (R-MT), Nay
Burr (R-NC), Nay
Byrd (D-WV), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Nay
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Coburn (R-OK), Nay
Cochran (R-MS), Nay
Coleman (R-MN), Nay
Collins (R-ME), Nay
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Cornyn (R-TX), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Nay
Crapo (R-ID), Nay
Dayton (D-MN), Yea
DeMint (R-SC), Nay
DeWine (R-OH), Nay
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Dole (R-NC), Nay
Domenici (R-NM), Nay
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Nay
Enzi (R-WY), Nay
Feingold (D-WI), Yea
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Nay
Graham (R-SC), Nay
Grassley (R-IA), Nay
Gregg (R-NH), Nay
Hagel (R-NE), Nay
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Nay
Hutchison (R-TX), Nay
Inhofe (R-OK), Nay
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Isakson (R-GA), Nay
Jeffords (I-VT), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Nay
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Yea
Levin (D-MI), Yea
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Nay
Lugar (R-IN), Nay
Martinez (R-FL), Nay
McCain (R-AZ), Nay
McConnell (R-KY), Nay
Menendez (D-NJ), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Nay
Murray (D-WA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Nay
Obama (D-IL), Yea
Pryor (D-AR), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Nay
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Nay
Sarbanes (D-MD), Yea
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Nay
Shelby (R-AL), Nay
Smith (R-OR), Nay
Snowe (R-ME), Not Voting
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Stevens (R-AK), Nay
Sununu (R-NH), Nay
Talent (R-MO), Nay
Thomas (R-WY), Nay
Thune (R-SD), Nay
Vitter (R-LA), Nay
Voinovich (R-OH), Nay
Warner (R-VA), Nay
Wyden (D-OR), Yea

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00258

The Military Commissions Act of 2006, passed unamended, though not without criticism ..

"Two provisions of the MCA have been criticized for allegedly making it harder to prosecute and convict officers and employees of the U.S. government for misconduct in office."

"First, the MCA changed the definition of war crimes for which U.S. Government defendants may be prosecuted. Under the War Crimes Act of 1996, any violation of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions was considered a war crime and could be criminally prosecuted."

"Section 6 of the Military Commissions Act amended the War Crimes Act so that only actions specifically defined as "grave breaches" of Common Article 3 could be the basis for a prosecution, and it made that definition retroactive to November 26, 1997. The specific actions defined in section 6 of the Military Commissions Act include torture, cruel or inhumane treatment, murder, mutilation or maiming, intentionally causing serious bodily harm, rape, sexual assault or abuse, and the taking of hostages."

"According to Mariner, of Human Rights Watch, the effect is "that perpetrators of several categories of what were war crimes at the time they were committed, can no longer be punished under U.S. law."[35] The Center for Constitutional Rights adds:
The MCA's restricted definitions arguably would exempt certain U.S. officials who have implemented or had command responsibility for coercive interrogation techniques from war crimes prosecutions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_2006#_note-9

Signed into law October 17, 2006.

Sadists are U.S.

How many of this tribe of government have truly felt the pain of torture? No one else is qualified to comment.

The MCA was one of the most tyrannical and filthy pieces of legislation ever to ooze its way across the floor of Congress. When the president can write a get-out-of-jail-free card for himself and his cronies, it's time to stop pretending we have the rule of law. Welcome to Latin America, c. 1980.

How would Feinstein and Schumer vote if the people being waterboarded were Zionists being tortured to admit that their settlements on Palestinian land were illegal under international law? Would the support waterboarding in that situation? Would there be any question as to whether or not waterboarding is torture?

I in no way support waterboarding or am suggesting that Zionists or anyone else be subjected to it, but I think it illustrates a point to suggest consideration of whether or not who the victims are is influencing some Senators' votes.

How can they be so blind? What if next week it comes to light that someone from another country is using waterboarding? We lose our ability to protest by using torture ourselves and invite it upon our own people by doing so.

I picked up my local county Sunday Newspaper, today. I always start with section A, because it always has which bills, resolutions have been voted on, how my Rep. and Senators voted and so forth. On the Commentary page, today, 4 November 2007, an articles titled, in BOLD letters 'Tortured Debate', underneath, 'Three cheers for waterboarding: It saves lives!'. Penned by Deroy Murdock, columnist w/Scripps News Service and Media Fellow with the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace at Stanford University.
I kept waiting for the turn from the declaration of the Title, it never happened. he Goes on about Mukasey and how Dem's are unhappy with his non-answers. Says 'While the White house must beware not to inform our enemies what to expect if captured, today's clueless anti-waterboarding rhetoric merits this tactic's vigorous defense. Waterboarding is something of which every American should be proud.' 'Waterboarding makes tight-lipped terrorists talk.'
On and on re; 9/11, the dead, al-Qaeda, each terrorist that was captured and the waterboarding used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed, according to a C.I.A. official, "He sang right away", giving up six other names' Goes on about ' the amount of innocent people these 6 "Islamo-Facists"(term makes no sense, me saying that) would have murdered if
KSM had not been waterboarded and his secrets unuttered,'
Finishes off this disgusting commentary with, 'In short, there is nothing " repugnant" about waterboarding.'
The world is going to end, like, tonight. Some of these people are literally insane!
Sorry, to go on and on, the commentary was long. His email is : deroy.murdock@gmail.com. I just do not understand how this country has gone straight to hell in 6 years, I am sick over this article and the whole enchilada.

O roe,

Published on Saturday, September 22, 2007 by The Independent/UK
Stanford Campus in Uproar Over Fellowship For Rumsfeld
by Andrew Gumbel

"Mr Rumsfeld's appointment as a one-year visiting fellow to the Hoover Institution was announced two weeks ago."

It's an article in the CommonDreams.org archive dated Saturday, September 22.

In a time of war America needs a President and a Congress that have the agility necessary to provide its troops with the protections they need.

Let's get a bill passed that makes waterboarding illegal before Judge Mukasey's nomination leaves the Senate Judiciary Committee, a bill Judge Mukasey is sure he can and will enforce.

Let's stop backstabbing our troops with this torture issue.

All the focus on waterboarding obscures other practices, including dozens of deaths under torture by US officials, acknowledged abductions, forced disappearances and false imprisonments, use of painful, potentially debilitating stress positions, and other outrages. Congressional failure to take firm, decisive action to restore the rule of law, repeal the immunity it so cavalierly granted, and hold human rights criminals responsible has disgusted our friends, animated and muliplied our foes, and undermined the Constitution and domestic and international law. Democratic Petains such as Schumer and Feinstein deserve only scorn and defeat.

militantliberal: "The MCA was one of the most tyrannical and filthy pieces of legislation ever to ooze its way across the floor of Congress."

I agree.

When is its repeal coming up for a vote on the floor of the Democratic Congress?

They ARE going to repeal it..? Right?

When?

"'Three cheers for waterboarding: It saves lives!'. Penned by Deroy Murdock, columnist w/Scripps News Service".

Who owns Scripps News Service? What corporation? I want to boycott their products.

Does anyone know where one could get a bumpersticker with the "Three cheers for waterboarding; it saves lives" on it? It will go so well with a pair of flag stickers and also a "support the troops" ribbon or two. Nothing wrong with a little real patriotism to make us all proud!!

It's not enough to say that torture is bad because it doesn't work; it is not enough to say that it is wrong because it fails to account for the possibility of a detainee's ignorance or innocence. It is morally wrong in every case, against everyone, regardless of their degree of guilt or innocence. Our judicial system is established on this very premise. Our Constitution specifically forbids "cruel and unusual punishment" as it applies to those found guilty. The detainees have never been tried, in fact have never been accused of anything--their guilt is simply assumed from their having been captured.

O roe: Gee thanks for pointing out Deroy Murdock. I was just feeling too cheerful today and that column cured me of that fast.

redjeff: Glen Greenwald reported that Mukasey believes the President may detain US citizens indefinitely without charges. Mukasey supports the idea of a 'unitary executive'.

Taguba's report stated that 70% at Abu Ghraib were innocent of any crime. Despite this, a Republican lawmaker declared that he was "outraged at the outrage" over Abu Ghraib because "they were all guilty". A good chunk of the US takes that as a given. They have a view of the world that mere fact won't change.

Fear forms their world. You can talk Constitution, innocence, whatever and what they hear is I'm going to pour gasoline over your children and give matches to terrorists . They believe more in the power of terrorism then in our Constitution. When our Constitution fails to stop planes from flying into buildings, the answer is to quit enforcing the Constitution. When terror fails, the answer is to use much much more of it.

I wonder if the politicians views of torture would change if they were subjected to the same tactics they think are acceptable? Or their own families. What if George were forced to watch Laura being sodomized and waterboarded! Sick bastards!

OldBadger,

While I agree with your sentiments, I take issue with your statement that people like Feinstein and Schumer and their fellow travelers in Washington "represent us." They represent interests on Wall Street and in Tel Aviv, not the common people of the USA. We can only have influence on the margins, that, if cleverly arranged, can provide an illusion of democracy, which has been found to pacify a public as much as the opiate of religion.

Unkanny-- if they live in that much fear, perhaps they shouldn't leave the house--especially on election day.
But they do leave the house, and line up to vote Republican, because their loyalty is to their party. They equate their party with "normal behavior", and everything else is perversity. They fear what liberals would do to this country more than they fear al-Qaida. Terrorism is just a convenient excuse to claim power. Before this it was Communism, or Anarchists, or the Irish. The ignorant and the apolitical take the bait at election time, then lose their focus afterwards. That's why fear tactics have to be repeated regularly, say, every two years?

I guess what I don't understand is how anyone can believe that what these people do to others they won't eventually do to their own countrymen.