I think all these politicos and pundits who believe waterboarding is not torture should have to either undergo it themselves or watch while someone they love experiences it. Preferably both. That would change attitudes SSSSOOOO fast. These people believe they are immune from any such action, and are sanitized from even seeing it. They have lost compassion and connection to the human race.

The great thing about this candidate is that he is the mouthpiece for the ownership class of America. If anyone wants to know how the people who buy our politicians think -- just listen to what Giuliani says.

In that sense, I think his candidacy is very instructive. All the establishment candidates essentially think the same on all the issues that truly matter -- those that sustain or advance the prosperity of the prosperous.

But, most candidates carry this immense baggage of appearing palatable. Not Giuliani.

We really in fact have a ruling class in America that believes all Islamic people are radical terrorists hell bent on destroying America and every other secular form of government or religion other than Islam.

These people do not think there is any sort of Muslim who is not an enemy. It's quite obvious in the rhetoric. No doubt, they are cooking up ways to get rid of the Muslims that are already here.

And, the immigration broo-ha-ha is partially rooted in an attempt to make sure more Muslims don't come here. In the thinking of the ruling class in America, Europe is already spoiled, overrun with Muslims. And that means overrun with terrorists. They are one and the same.

So, hopefully someone like Kucinich will have the guts to say that Giuliani's stances are an excellent glimpse into the mindset of exactly those people that labor so hard with so many resources to undermine democracy in America.

You're as mad as Giuliani if you place any stock in Kuchinich's candidacy. No matter how much you agree with his policies, he's
unelectable. He'll never win the primaries, he'd never win an election. Period.

Supporting him is a waste of time and resources and makes the left look as absurd as the extreme right. Better to build a progressive movement at the district level, but that requires diligent off-season coalition building and that requires too much effort from the vocal minority.

I didn't say I thought Kucinich would win.

I only bring up Kucinich because he is the only non-establishment candidate that has a microphone in his face at all. He's the only one that can say, in a national debate or wherever, "take a serious look at what Giuliani is saying, because he is vocalizing the game plan of all establishment candidates."

The question of which candidate to support and why has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make.

The point is, if you want to know what Hillary is going to do in office, check out the Giuliani rhetoric. Ditto for the whole lot of them, from Thompson to Edwards to Obama to Romney.

Other candidates which might represent a departure from the elitist course: Ron Paul, Al Gore, Bloomberg. People that show some indication of individual will, critical thinking, and intellectual honesty. McCain used to belong in this group, but has obviously sold out.

"Giuliani sounds like he has been understudying the role of Godzilla. Or is he simply tearing a page out of Bush's playbook?"

He is yelling the war mania nonsense that the faithful want to hear. The louder he yells it, the more glowing approval he will get from the mainstream Press, and the more likely the gullible GOP redneck morons are to forget that he is an anti-gun, pro-gay candidate who has publicly engaged in crossdressing.

Oh, come on, Giuliani is just part of the corporatist conspiracy trying to scare you into voting for Killary or Obomber or Edwars or some other Dummycrat. Everyone knows there is only one party and it's both the same, right?

My apologies for changing the subject on your response.

When I hear Kuchinich's name used as a a possible source of relief from the corruption of our government, it frustrates me. Time and time again I watch progressives aim shotgun blasts at their own feet by backing loser candidates like Kucinich, Nader, and Ron Paul(!) Such foolish actions make it easy for us to be ignored and guarantee our political weakness.

Progressives supporting Ron Paul! What's up with that? Too enthusiastic about his support for decriminalization of marijuana, if you know what I mean.

Giuliani is not a sideshow. He has practiced his speechmaking for 5 years nonstop on the "Chamber of Commerce" circuit, and is so appealing to many conservatives (on taxes, war, and stealing your Social Security) that they very well may run him despite his social conservative voter problems (3 wives, pro-abortion, pro-gays, anti-guns.)

THANKFULLY, several commenters above have taken note that liberals will not win anything whatsoever by supporting fringe candidates, especially not in divisive third-party campaigns. We'll be very, very lucky if we can get either Clinton or Obama to defeat the Giuliani agenda in 2008.

You can take that word 'unelectable' (where'd you pick that up from, a neocon talking points dictionary?) and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

I'm tired of morally retarded loudmouthed punks telling me that I can have no chance at representation. Your one eyed God (television) can lie to you all you want, but it by no means makes it's lie true.

Tell me, oh-knower-of-the-popular-will, which candidate gets the standing ovations? Which candidate do people consistently say represents their interests? Which candidate is ACTUALLY viewed more like a regular person? (you know, regular person, the biggest lie that helped Bush get the numbers he actually got)

And all you can think to spew is some lower-than-fecal toxic foolishness about being 'unelectable'. What a convenient word, takes him right out of the race with no further explanation necessary. No need to explain why this supposed property of his would mean that he would lose, it's built right into the definition.

Spare me the neocon approved memes please, it sickens me and pisses me off. You want to tell me I can't be represented simply by declaration? By fiat? You're mistaking me (indeed, all of us) for a sheep. If that's the way you want to be fine, but don't be so loud and proud of your ignorant grazing.

mirf59,

I do not believe the corporate elites give a second's thought as to whether Muslims should live or die. It is the black gold beneath the feet of those Muslims that they are concerned with. If such Muslims would simply "step away from the oil," there would be no problem. But Giuliani is a realistic fascist, and he knows they will not willingly step away, and he is going to have to kill a great many people in order to steal something of such great value.

Kivals,

You may be right. I have heard some pretty overt, good old fashioned racial hatred directed at Muslims from many right-wingers. Perhaps you are right and it is an epiphenomenon of economic control, vanishing as soon as financial leverage disappears.

If you take conservatives at their word, all Muslims are intent on converting or killing everyone else. Maybe this is a mentality seeded and grown by the cynical plotters on top -- the avaricious Cheneys, the secular Roves, the priggish Buckleys and Norqvists. But, it is certainly not far from the lips of the faithful.

Giuliani is auditioning for a role. And like any second rate actor he will sell his soul for the part. He is interviewing for a position. And like many job applicants he's going to say what he thinks will get him the position. There are no Statesmen in American politics today. They are all Giulianis.
Hoa binh

mirf59,

Manufactured hatred goes hand in hand with the manufactured consent that Chomsky has been warning us about.

Giuliani is so deluded he thinks he did a good job as Mayor of New York City. As a survivor of the Giuliani years, all I can say is "Stop this dangerous megalomaniac now!"

"America shouldn't be even-handed in dealing with the difference between an elected democracy that's a government ruled by law and a group of terrorists."

He noted that the radical Hamas party won a sweeping victory in Palestinian elections in Gaza.

HUH? is he smart enough to be aware of his own doublespeak?

Neomunk:

As much as I hate to disagree with someone who cares enough to post their feelings on Commondreams, you gotta let go of the selfish need to 'be represented.' That's not the way the 2 party system works. Don't like the system? Start your revolution.

But if you actually want to vote (IE use the system) AND you care about the major issues Commondreams readers seem concerned with, you'll support the lesser of the 2 evils you're presented with. That's what neocons do. They don't like Giuliani, but they are fearing what will happen if a Dem administration comes in.

Personally I don't like the foreign policy agenda of ANY of the 'electable' Democrats, but faced with the choice between my self-righteous need to be 'represented' and my fear of watching my country REALLY go over the deep end at the hands of a madman, I'll choose the lesser evil anyday.

That's what's great about grassroots organizing: you get to be part of something larger than one person, with the opportunity to effect change in a way that even corporations cannot steal from you. (Yet.) But it's not free - ya gotta pay to play. The cost? A bit of individuality.

I voted for the Democrats in 2006. I donated money to various Democrats. Never again will I do so, and I know there are lots like me here in the Northeast. The Democrats all ran on an anti-war platform, and when they got into congress, they did nothing.

At this point, I could care less who wins the election. This is not the country of Emerson, Melville, Thoreau, Frost that I grew up loving. It is an imperial juggernaut, and sooner or later, like all such imperial powers, it will collapse through overextension and debt. I frankly would rather have someone like Giuliani, who will manage the empire recklessly and badly, than someone like Hillary, who will put a civilized, happy face on the empire, while she also eventually takes us to war with Iran (with a little more finesse).

Ultimately, the empire will collapse, but I would rather it do so sooner than later, and I am thinking about the world's welfare mostly. I am done caring about the welfare of this country and its fat, decadent, slovenly, spoiled people.

All I can do when people act like this election really matters is chuckle to myself.

gavingourley: Compared to centrist puppets of the war machine like Hillary, Ron Paul is very progressive. Libertarianism is a progressive philosophy. It is anti-authoritarian. It is pro-peace. It is pro-individual rights. Ron Paul is proving this to many people now on the world stage, and he is probably slightly right of center, as libertarians go.

It is true that there are many libertarians who are poseurs, who are really neo-cons in sheep's clothing. But there are also many liberal Democrats who are poseurs--who are really neo-cons in sheep's clothing. (See Hillary, above.)

As for the marijuana decriminalization issue, you should not use it as a rock to throw at people who support Ron Paul. Rather, you should be ashamed of the many so-called "progressive" liberal Democrats who endorse the War on Drugs.

Rudy Ghouliani is a political necrophiliac and does not realize that neoconservatism is dead. The Bush administration has thoroughly and irrefutably discredited every tenet put forth by these pompous, preening, elitist warmongers and while it might play well in the Republican primaries in the redneck red states, it will go down to defeat in the general election, no matter how tepid the Democratic candidate might be.

POLL: Which issue represents the biggest obstacle facing Giuliani's quest for the Republican nomination? Vote on: http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=863

gavingourley November 2nd, 2007 1:51 pm

"When I hear Kuchinich's name used as a a possible source of relief from the corruption of our government, it frustrates me. Time and time again I watch progressives aim shotgun blasts at their own feet by backing loser candidates like Kucinich, Nader, and Ron Paul(!) Such foolish actions make it easy for us to be ignored and guarantee our political weakness."

Yeah, we're soooooooo weak, that's why posters like Daniel David, Jefe 009, and yourself spend soooooooo much time posting here trying to convince us to vote for whoever the Dems nominate. If we're that unimportant you should go post someplace where you can do some good. Like maybe wherever the rest of the 91% of the voters that disapprove of the Dem led Congress are.

Lobo Gris

I cannot imagine Americans being that stupid that they vote for yet another Republican. Even the big donors who are corrupting your electoral system are giving up on them.
I think I agree with one of the former writers who said that Giuliani is just a horror sideshow, serving to whip up your fear into voting for Hillary.

Just ignore that bastard. That is the best way of dealing with him.

One thing you can say about him, he doesn't equivocate.
Absolutely masterful. A perfect summation. Helen, you are a goddess.

Rudy is effectively the continuation of the Bush/Cheney agenda and while it isn't said much, Giuliani is the heir apparent of republican fantasies and...ahem... connivances. While Giulianni would like to appear as the cowboy... heels and a string of pearls come to mind instead.

Thus Don Giuliani the godfather of politcis has been introduced recently as a New York cowboy equivalency. The closest to the wild west cowboy in NYC is ... The Godfather.

In heels.

Oddly when you mention Giuliani the idea of starting WW3 comes up in passing. Fleetinly...like it was a footnote?

"...and also Rudy wants a war with Iran." Ah yes. WW3. By the way. If you're interested?

Rudy would indeed remove the constitution as an impediment to his idea of effective governance. A man who wanted his term extended for months (it was refused) because of an emergency. NYC held an election and went on well without Rudy. New Yorkers and NYFD do not like Rudy. Flip flop Rudy is given a free pass on his flip flopping by the press. The anointed one. Bush/Cheney Redux and on to WAR... WW3 ...Rudy will show we mean business. And Rudy will at the same time ...really show us he means business but at home. Finishing off what Bush has done and 'writing it in stone'. The finisher!

WW3 and heels.

Jefe:

The last paragraph of my previous post in this thread sums up the response I would give you, and frankly, is probably quite a bit more polite.

Oh, and that bit about me being selfish? For not wanting to be controlled (and an accelerating degree of control at that) by some plutocratic elites who think they know what's best for me? Spare me, as I do not graze in pastures.

Again, Common Dreamers, do NOT take seriously those who would tell citizens of a democracy that they should not expect representation. It is the easiest lie for them to propagate, as it seems self-evident that our votes DO NOT make a difference, but I tell you it can be so.

Yes, those who would control you count the votes, but exit polling is a bit trickier to rig, so is word of mouth. The greater the disparity between the actual vote counts and the declared 'official' count is important. The greater that number, the less legitimate the government would look, in the eyes of both its citizenry and foreign powers. The more ILLEGITIMATE the government seems, the quicker we can get this nightmare over with.

Vote for the candidate who is RIGHT, it is an extremely easy way to help set this country on a path to progress. Do NOT vote for a candidate who is WRONG (no matter how wrong her competition may be) for to do so makes you complicit in the crimes committed thereafter. Show the world (hell, show YOURSELF) that we know the difference between right and wrong, and are morally strong enough to act accordingly, even if it doesn't seem the 'strongest' position to take.