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The Untold Stories
In the debate over late abortion, one voice is rarely heard - that of the women who have actually had one.

by Karen Dugdale

Eight years ago, when I was 32, I went for a routine scan. I was 20 weeks pregnant, and looking forward to bringing home the first grainy photo of our much wanted second baby. I can only recall snippets of the conversation the consultant and radiographer had as I lay on the bed. Various “anomalies” in my baby were pointed out on the screen, and discussed. They spoke to each other, not to me, and most of what they said I couldn’t understand. “Neural tube defect” meant nothing; spina bifida did. EastEnders had just run a storyline in which a character had terminated her pregnancy following a similar diagnosis. What I remember clearly is the utter desolation I felt as the future I had mapped out was left in tatters.

A consultant talked my partner and me through the best- and worst-case prognoses for our baby, and set out our options, one of which was termination. Had I chosen to continue with the pregnancy, I was told that, at best, our child would have a range of handicaps that would restrict mobility and cause ongoing bladder and bowel problems, and at worst, the outcome would be paralysis and permanent brain damage - hydrocephalus (water on the brain) was also clearly visible from the scan. In this instance the chances of survival beyond early childhood would be slim and quality of life seriously impaired.Would it have been easier if we had been told there was no compatibility with life? The short answer is no. This wasn’t about having a “perfect baby”, but about making the right decision for our unborn child, myself and our family. The decision was probably the hardest I will ever make, but one I remain convinced was right.

Over the 40 years since the Abortion Act became law, repeated attempts have been made both to repeal and restrict it, and in recent years late abortion has been systematically targeted. Objections to late abortion centre on foetal viability and the brutal mechanics of the process - medical induction, foeticide, labour and birth - cited by anti-abortionists as reason enough for reform. Although the Commons science and technology select committee this week said that the 24-week limit should not be reduced because the survival rate of children born below that age is still extremely low - a view upheld by the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and the Royal College of Nursing - ultrasound images of “walking babies” in the womb continue to fuel a groundswell of opinion favouring a reduction in the legal limit. In one recent survey, 68% of people thought the limit should be reduced to 13 weeks.

Ongoing scaremongering by anti-abortion groups - in the form of stories of botched abortions (babies being born alive) and allegations that terminations are routinely performed for “trivial” medical conditions, such as cleft palates - is rife. There is pressure from certain quarters to come up with a “tick list” of foetal abnormalities that would be seen as justifying late abortion - even though a study by the Centre for Family Research, University of Cambridge, looking into the decision-making experiences of foetal medicine professionals, concluded that such a list would be both “unworkable” and “unhelpful”. Meanwhile, emotive terminology such as “partial birth” and “eugenics” keep the debate on late termination focused on foetal viability and rights.

And throughout all this, one crucial voice has been overlooked: that of the women who have excercised their right to choose, and have had late abortions.

Our experiences can be extremely upsetting, so perhaps it is not surprising that people don’t want to hear them. Julie (not her real name) had a termination at 36 weeks. A 20-week scan indicated there might be some complications but these were attributed to a newly installed ultrasound machine. It was only a further scan, at 32 weeks, that detected a serious medical condition in her unborn child.

“It was like entering a black hole,” she recalls. “The radiographer wasn’t prepared to discuss it, and I then had to wait for three hours in a room full of other happily fat pregnant women for a consultant. The consultant also refused to say anything and I was told I would have to wait until after the weekend to see a specialist.”

Julie overheard medical staff openly discussing her situation before being subjected to a further scan with around half a dozen people in the room, including several students. “It was as if I wasn’t there,” she says. “The consultant was brutal, likening babies in special care units to ‘little rats tied to machines’.” Three weeks later, when the severity of her baby’s condition was eventually confirmed, Julie had a termination.

Stories like Julie’s and mine are not often told. The silence is partly because late abortion remains taboo; even those who are “pro-choice” often feel uncomfortable being seen to support a woman’s right to choose this. About three months after my own abortion, I remember publicly - and loudly - berating a group of close female friends who had avoided the subject. Their defence was that they were taking their lead from me - that they thought I would have broached it, had I wanted to discuss it - but I felt they were deliberately ignoring what had happened. Meanwhile, I found myself being selective with the truth with everyone other than immediate family and my closest friends, not wanting (or able to cope with) being judged. Allowing people to believe that I had “lost” the baby through a late miscarriage was easier than having to justify my actions. The guilt I felt over those first few months, despite my conviction that what I did was right, was immense.

Over time, I felt more willing to talk about what I had been through and discuss the decision I had made. It wasn’t always easy, and people’s reactions were not always predictable; someone I had known for a long time, and counted as a friend, was so shocked that our friendship eventually ended, whereas a deeply religious colleague, to whom I had been dreading telling the truth, was incredibly sympathetic and supportive.

But it is not only other people’s disquiet that makes late abortion difficult to discuss. Beth, who terminated a pregnancy at 24 weeks after antenatal screening picked up a condition in her baby that was incompatibile with life, acknowledges her own difficulties in coming to terms with her decision. “As a Christian, [abortion] challenged my beliefs greatly,” she says. “I had studied eugenics and was working at that time with adults and children with learning difficulties. I felt I was going against them and everything I worked for.”

“It has taken me three years to be open with some of my closest friends, although recently I have been telling people.” Beth does not regret her decision, though: “I’m proud of the decision I made out of love for my unborn baby - and not a day goes past when I don’t think of him.”

Such ambivalence was common among the women I spoke to; while talking candidly about their decisions, they also mentioned some associated doubt and guilt, which was made more acute by the wider societal disapproval. Marketing manager Debby Cooper, 30, had an abortion four years ago. She believed strongly that no one had the right to judge her, and so was open about the fact that she had terminated her pregnancy at 21 weeks. Nevertheless, she still felt she had to justify her “choice”.

“I could never just say, ‘My baby had brain abnormalities and I had a termination at 21 weeks,’ ” she confides, “I always had to go on to explain that the baby would have died within a few hours of his birth.

“Mainly people were very supportive. I wanted someone to argue, I wanted someone to challenge me so I could justify why I did it.” Debby even logged on to anti-abortion forums to try to “bait” someone into an argument as a way of assuaging her own guilt, although she found “pro-lifers” surprisingly tolerant. “I never met anyone who totally disagreed with what I’d done. They may not have done it themselves, but they couldn’t disagree.”

It seems that, when confronted with the reality of an individual’s experience of late-term abortion of a profoundly disabled foetus, even many “pro-lifers” find it hard to condemn the woman. But while a significant number of late-term abortions are carried out following a diagnosis of abnormality, not all are. Many people - and even some medical professionals - differentiate between these and so called “social abortions”, a tag that angers pro-choice campaigners.

“One of the concerns is that as soon as you start saying that disability is a separate issue there is a danger of going down a slippery slope,” says Anne Quesney of the national pro-choice organisation, Abortion Rights. “Access to late abortion is a right that should be upheld for whatever reason.”

Women who have experienced this type of late-stage abortion speak of disapproval even from some of the medical professionals who treat them. Marion, who had a termination at 24 weeks in the 1970s, received little in the way of sympathy or support. She was 19 at the time. Thirty years on, she still remembers the unfriendly manner of one of the doctors and open hostility from an attending nurse. “They made me feel horrible,” she says. “Nobody explained what would happen to me and in those days you didn’t ask questions. I wish I’d had a lot more support, just in terms of what was going to happen.” Marion didn’t know she was pregnant until 16 weeks, and then had to wait weeks for an appointment. “It was my first pregnancy and I was very young.”

With access to early home pregnancy tests now readily available, and sex education part of the national curriculum, it may be hard for some people to understand why a woman wouldn’t realise she was pregnant until four or five months down the line, yet a study by Marie Stopes International (MSI) in 2004, examining why women present late for abortion, found it to be one of the primary reasons behind many later-term abortions in private clinics - often because early signs of pregnancy are masked by the onset of menopause or the irregularities of teenage menstrual cycles.

This is what happened to Zoe, who, at the time, was 17 years old and studying for her A-levels. Showing no visible signs of pregnancy or any related symptoms, Zoe, who was using contraception, was reassured by her GP that she was not pregnant, despite having missed several periods. However, an early test taken by her GP turned out to be a “false negative”. Zoe’s pregnancy was only confirmed at 19 weeks, on a return visit.

“The doctor had done such a good job of reassuring me first time around,” she says, “that I didn’t think I could be.” Aside from her GP (who expressed some guilt about the late diagnosis), Zoe had little in the way of support from medical professionals during the termination process, which took place two weeks later. “It was just this hideous situation where the doctors and most of the nurses were hostile and judging me,” she recalls. Zoe cites a midwife asking her if “she had thought about contraception”, despite the fact that at the time she was on the pill.

Despite her experience in the hospital afterwards - “I couldn’t stop screaming and was told to be quiet” - Zoe believes the long-term effect of her decision has been a positive one. “I took everything for granted before then,” she says. “It’s made me make the most of situations - like when I didn’t feel like revising, a voice in my head would say, ‘Well, you might as well have had that other life if you’re not going to make the most of your opportunities.’

“My life would have taken an entirely different course and I have no idea how I’d have coped with that or who I would now be.”

When I had my abortion, I was lucky to recieve very good care. So did Carrie McMillan, who was 32 when she had an abortion at 22 weeks after a diagnostic scan revealed serious problems. She describes the medical staff who treated her during her late abortion two years ago as “absolutely brilliant”. She recalls the moment the consultant delivered the news. “We couldn’t believe something was seriously wrong, but then the consultant said that in his opinion, given the severity of our daughter’s condition, she was unlikely to survive.”

If a woman is more than 13 weeks pregnant, labour has to be induced, and normally takes less than six hours. Carrie’s labour was much longer because the baby was breech. Afterwards, she says, “We stayed with her for a few hours and the midwife left a camera and dressed her in a premature nappy and cardigan and filled in the card you get given with other births.” When Carrie felt ready to go to the ward, “The midwife said she would stay with [the baby] for the rest of her shift; she acted as if she was an important baby, which she was to me.” Despite the trauma of the birth, Carrie says she is glad she went through labour as it helped her to come to terms with what had happened. When she got pregnant again only months later, she was once again impressed by the care she received. She was offered numerous scans as reassurance - unnecessary, in the event, as her daughter, Kizzy, “scared the crap” out of her by arriving two months early.

Anecdotally, it seems that women like Zoe who have late abortions on so-called social grounds are more likely to be treated as undeserving of compassion when in hospital than those of us who terminate because of foetal disability. Certainly, there is a huge variation in the standard of medical care and treatment received by women during and after late abortions. Christoph Lees, a consultant in obstetrics and foetal medicine, says that this is a “Cinderella area” of medicine that could benefit from proper national training standards. “Care in these situations is well-meaning but haphazard,” he allows. “It would be nice to make it more consistent. It doesn’t take huge resources to get it right, but it probably takes more thought.”

Late-term abortion remains rare - 89% of all abortions in the UK are carried out at 12 weeks or below; only 1.5% take place after 20 weeks. The process can be physically and emotionally traumatic, and is never undertaken lightly. Those of us who have had late abortions have felt the force of moral outrage - we know that people who have never been in a situation like ours can be all too easily persuaded that the law should change. This is why it is important that our stories are heard.

– Karen Dugdale

© 2007 The Guardian

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22 Comments so far

  1. ezeflyer November 1st, 2007 12:15 pm

    This article changed my mind about late term abortions. I never considered the fact that some horrible fetal deformities are not evident until late in the pregnancy. Let the woman decide.

  2. BeForKids November 1st, 2007 12:53 pm

    You are brave to come forward, Karen. The stories are poignant, and I am so sorry that some health care professionals have been judgmental and unkind. When I was in nursing school, the two most influential topics for me were patient safety and being nonjudgmental. Unfortunately, I have seen many breaches of the second. People have human weaknesses. But it’s very sad when they are in a position to harm others with their weaknesses.

    It’s too bad we can’t have taboos against hurting children and neglecting elderly instead of talking about incest or traumatic medical experiences.

  3. Daniel David November 1st, 2007 12:58 pm

    Hard to know what will happen to laws about abortion in the UK. In America, the laws will be determined by five Catholics on the Supreme Court, one of whom “may” not be interested in overturning precedent, plus any next single appointee by the next president.

  4. JaneM November 1st, 2007 1:05 pm

    This has got to be one of the hardest decisions anyone would have to make. It just infuriates me that anyone could imagine having the right to make that decision for someone else. The only individuals who should be involved are the mother, the father, and the doctor.

  5. skippyagogo41 November 1st, 2007 1:42 pm

    Not so sure about the father point there JaneM… I really can’t agree that the father would have the authority to decide that his wife/gf/sig other should have a baby that’s going to die or be severly disabled. The other thing this article misses is that occasionally the mother is harmed by carrying a child to term. A family that’s friends with ours had that experience, their child was born without its esophagus (sp from hell, the tube from your mouth to the stomach) and carrying the child to term revealed a heart defect in the mother. She’ll never have another child.

  6. annabelle November 1st, 2007 1:46 pm

    There will always be debate over abortion, especially those who see it as a black or white issue. But, as in all areas of life, it is a grey area with each and every case different, different conditions and difference circumstances. The answers are never easy, the decisions extremely difficult, but to put a big NO on all abortions is unfair. Let me decide what is right, let me be able to choose. After working in a children’s rehab hospital for birth defect children and being a part of the process of working with children and with parents you learn to see both sides of the coin. Many of these children were simply abandoned as the tremendous responsibility on the part of the parents was too much. At that time abused children, we worked with them too, could not be reported to the authorities and we saw little patients die. In some cases it is better to have laws and in some cases it is better to have choices.

  7. bligh November 1st, 2007 3:06 pm

    The problem with the abortion debate is that it is so completely polarized. The pro-life crowd does not want to allow ANY abortions. The pro-choice crowd doesn’t want ANY restrictions. Thinking like this ignores the many factors involved.

  8. Future.me November 1st, 2007 3:41 pm

    Because this is such a grey area, is the perfect reason for leaving these types of decisions to the families involved. These types of life altering decisions should not be left to the likes of St. Somebody who lives in Somewhere, State.

    One of my biggest problems with life in the U.S of A is that everyone wants to tell everyone else what they should or should not do.

    We have discussions about mandatory prayer in school; instead of instilling the value of prayer in your own child, who can then, bow his/her head anytime during the day to pray when they feel the need to.

    We have huge discussions about riding the world of abortions. But instead of taking away a mothers choice, why not reform the Foster Care system, reform the adoption process, pay women a fair wage, and provide universal health care. This would have the largest, impact on a mother’s decision to have or not to have a child.

    Some of the largest supporters of the pro-life movement demonize Plan Parent Hood. An organization that gives care to pregnant mothers, aids in acquiring contraception to prevent pregnancies, and also aids in providing options after an unintended pregnancy occurs.

    These supporters are the very same people that want to rid the government of its social and welfare funding. They whine and cry about the taxes that go to programs that help aid the poor and the sick who are the likely ones who would need an alternative to pregnancy. Eliminate these alternatives for these individuals and the “Pro-Life Supporters” are stuck holding the bill; which they don’t want to do.

    We are so preoccupied with who is sleeping with the same sex that we miss our own children sleeping with the opposite sex, which can incur teen pregnancy.

    Then to top it off we are so arrogant that we believe 16 year old girls are the only ones that accidentally become pregnant. Several Career woman experience contraceptive failures, medical abnormalities, or the same type of reckless irresponsibility that a teen may exhibit. This is acceptable because, lots of us have made sexual decisions that we might take back with hindsight.

    And I, a 24 year old male, am often left out of the loop when it comes to these decisions. Some of us would have chosen to keep the child, even though the mother may have not felt it was in her best interest. But the choice is not ours it seems.

    Thanks for listening

    ~Future~

  9. hubcap_halo November 1st, 2007 4:23 pm

    I thank the author for coming forward to tell a very personal, tragic story.

    That said, I think the problem with both the pro life crowd and the pro choice crowd is the hypocrisy (or perhaps is more use of euphemisms) on both sides. For pro lifers, I would say that as a voting block they are, across the board, pro child from conception to birth and after that you’re on your own kid. Also, they kid themselves that there are many cases where an abortion is the lesser of two evils–in cases where the child would be brought up by another teen child who is not ready or into an unloving environment or horribly stressful environment. And of course, as in the case of the author, when the child would have a rare chance of surviving long and with a terrible quality of life.

    The pro life crowd kids themselves that abortions have always been and always will be around.

    That said, I think the pro choice folks would serve honestly by awknowledging that, indeed, abortion is murder. Let’s not play pretend or make up euphemisms. It’s the murder of growing life, and I’d argue that while the fetus at 7 weeks is still fairly undeveloped, it’s probably feels more than a plant and the ending of it’s life is a horror. Period.

    That said, I’m fully pro choice and will always be so. I hate the idea of abortion, but I believe in personal liberty and privacy and that, yes, it is truly a matter between a doctor and the woman and (less often, unfortunately) the man involved in conception.

  10. Marikken November 1st, 2007 5:08 pm

    hubcap_halo - are you vegetarian then since you believe the taking of growing life is murder?

  11. MollyJ November 1st, 2007 9:58 pm

    Having worked with families with technology dependent children I feel strongly that in the dilemma these women faced, there are no free choices. All choices carry their own peculiar burden and they are just hard. In the black-and-white thinking that plagues so many issues, many people want to believe that their is one single correct solution. I myself believe that there is only the solution that the person is willing to bear the burden of.

    Having worked with so many families with high needs children, I have to say that I could never condemn anyone for making the difficult choice the two women above described made.

    Though many families I worked with remained convinced that they had made the best choice for themselves, it sometimes cost them marriage, partner, time to nurture the children with a future in their lives, sanity, peace of mind, their own hopes and aspirations and lost income capacity.

    I myself would mourn for but could live with the choice to return a profoundly impacted embryo or fetus back to the universe.

  12. CptPicard November 1st, 2007 10:44 pm

    Considering that I myself have a disability that these days tends to lead to abortions more often than not, and that I actually still live a life I’m quite satisfied with, I am in general rather freaked out by the fact that the advances in medical technology seem to just lead to more abortions of the disabled and more excuses over how bad our quality of life would be regardless of the fact that we can actually be helped better than ever… certainly it is also true that babies in worse and worse condition can be tried to be helped and there is a valid discussion to be had there, but so far it seems to me that *easier and easier* disabilities are on the kill-list simply for convenience!

    Of course I’m fortunate enough to live in Northern Europe where the situation of disabled people is in general far superior to that of the USA, but still… to me this is not an economics question.

    I am pro-choice, but to me it is a profoundly distasteful idea that I belong to a group of human beings that is the only group that has a legal exception made specifically for us that limits our right to life. Think about it a bit. How would it sound if I said that abortion legislation should be relaxed for blacks or Jews?

    I am not completely adverse to the arguments presented regarding (genuinely) serious fetal defects that are (really) detectable only at late-term, but I surely hope people are at least able to appreciate the rather nasty implications when it comes to universality of ethical principles…

  13. starofthesea November 1st, 2007 11:22 pm

    The decision to accept a lifelong relationship with another human being is a profoundly personal one. You don’t divorce your children—the bond (in good times and bad) is a permanent one. Recognizing one’s own limitations in terms of the capacity to offer what one hopes will be unconditional love to a child, requires radical self evaluation. The choice to continue or terminate a pregnancy, no matter at what point,is such a personal decision, that it literally appalls me that anyone, and I do mean ANYONE else things they have the right to decide for me. In fact it seems totally and utterly absurd, that any woman should have to justify such a wrenching and deeply personal decision.

  14. MeAlsoToo November 2nd, 2007 8:37 am

    “In America, the laws will be determined by five Catholics on the Supreme Court…”
    Of possible-interest to them:
    http://joeschwartz.net/life.htm

  15. Vince Lawrence November 2nd, 2007 9:41 am

    Thank you Ms. Dugdale for this courageous piece. This issue has touched my life personally though quite peripherally several times, and I’m aware that I will never be able to completely comprehend your inner turmoil and sorrow.

    May you eventually find peace.

    No-one “likes” abortion, including those firmly in the pro-choice camp, and Jon-Luc correctly reminds us of another face of this human dillema. Live long and prosper Captain.

  16. peacemaker November 2nd, 2007 10:14 am

    Religion is what guides most people’s belief’s on abortion and birth control both! As long as religion is stuck in the dark ages and being led by superstitions and myth they are going to rail that both are murder! But, unfortunately most religious people don’t seem to live in the real world. They don’t stop for a second to think that with their outrageous policies they are contributing to overpopulation, misery, starvation, suffering, disease, and death among humans and every known problem mankind has been plagued with down through the centuries. I honestly don’t think most of them have the capacity to really care about the quality of life humans are getting! They have become so indoctrinated with the belief that they are right and everyone else is wrong. They miss the big picture here. If something constructive isn’t done about overpopulation we are going to populate ourselves into oblivion in the next 100 years. I personally do not believe if there is a God up there that this is what he or she wants. Regardless of what my personal belief’s are I was raised by two Christian parents to ‘live and let live’! I had enough to take care of my own problems without trying to take care of someone else’s. Most Christian’s need to learn to take care of their own behavior first and not worry about what the girl down the street is doing at the doctor’s office today. I don’t know what has happened to Christianity in the last 30 years? But, they have become obnoxious with their belief’s they have the right to dictate morality to every person in this country! It wasn’t that way when I was raised in the 50’s you did not preach to other people around you. You kept your mouth shut about your religion and left them to their’s! We got along much better as a nation that way!

  17. principessaflamenco November 2nd, 2007 10:44 am

    Thanks peacemaker!
    To end or not a pregnancy, as well your personal beliefs and spirituality are NOT subjects of public matter.
    On our drive to work this morning, my husband and I saw a bumpersticker that read : “Tell the truth, don’t believe the lies of liberal media” (next to a W bumpersticker of course). And I thought: have these people ever wondered what would be the reasons why the “liberal media” is telling lies? why would it be on the so called “enemy’s” side?
    It makes no sense obviously, but it seems to me that for religious folk, reasoning an issue is not necessary, all they need is blind faith, and worse, they feel the imperative need to impose it on others.

  18. THINKFIRST November 2nd, 2007 11:29 am

    “impose it on others”

    That’s what Liberals tend to do. Debate is not an option.
    Diversity of opinion is the most import type of diversity there is. Good healthly respectful debate use to be the order of the day. The make-up of the Democrat Party is troubling. The far left has its claws into it. THe Republicans seem to have more diversity in though and actions.

  19. principessaflamenco November 2nd, 2007 2:15 pm

    Thinkfirst,
    I hope you are kidding, the far left has its claws into the Dem party? Am I supposed to laugh? Republicans have more diversity? hahahaha, they are a bunch of misogynistic, racists, whatever dude…

  20. BeForKids November 2nd, 2007 5:37 pm

    THINKFIRST, I think all of us have filters we look through. We only see what we’re looking for. From your statement, that definitely includes you.

    principessaflamenco, the Democrats aren’t the only ones with diversity problems. The Republican Party used to put forward many candidates who were fiscally conservative and socially moderate to liberal. They got co-opted by the right wing. There are quite a few Republicans who aren’t happy about that. FOX “news” has been a big disaster, presenting propaganda as news with many people not realizing what’s being done and not checking other sources of information.

  21. CptPicard November 3rd, 2007 2:54 pm

    Just to add a bit to what I said earlier — while I accept genuine quality of life arguments in situations where fetal defects would result in a life that would be nasty and short, starofthesea’s line of thinking does freak me out…

    Yes, accepting the idea of abortion on demand up to some point of pregnancy doesn’t leave much wriggling room for questioning the motivations of the woman, in particular if we are not dealing with the issue of legal late-term exceptions which I find problematic on fundamental human rights grounds… we can debate that all the way up to Singer’s infanticide ideas (that is, if parents don’t want the child, they could choose the kill it up to two months of age), but let’s not.

    Accepting a right to something does not mean that there is some requirement to agree with some motivation, and wanting agreement and support and validation is what this is all about. Starofthesea explicitly states that this is an issue of whether she would be capable of loving the child. Personally I don’t understand why someone would be demanding sympathy and appealing to her mourning of an unborn child when it is clearly *not* the child she would be mourning — what she *is* mourning is the death of the fantasy of what the child would or should have been. Essentially, the child does not meet expectations, so it is not desired. Just accepting that without all the skirting around the issue would be a great start and would gain much more intellectual respect from me.

    Considering my mother might have felt this way about me is a rather awful thought, and I don’t think anyone can be critical of me feeling that way.

    So, maybe you can’t imagine having a disabled child.. I can’t imagine having a mother who would stop loving me because I happen to be. There is not much discussion to be had there, is there?

  22. chip90043 November 5th, 2007 6:56 pm

    I do not agree with Cpt Picard:
    It is not that she doesnt want the child. most of these babies will not have a long life. According to the article most die within days or months. It is the fact she doesnt want it to suffer. Why sit there helplessly and watch it go through extensive pain and suffering just to say you love it?None of this would be an issue if everyone would respect peoples feeling and not think that their religious beliefs are the same for everyone else.

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