Democrats Caving To Bush: Agree On Terms of Spying Bill
Telecom Companies Would Receive Immunity
Senate Democrats and Republicans reached agreement with the Bush administration yesterday on the terms of new legislation to control the federal government's domestic surveillance program, which includes a highly controversial grant of legal immunity to telecommunications companies that have assisted the program, according to congressional sources.
Disclosure of the deal followed a decision by House Democratic leaders to pull a competing version of the measure from the floor because they lacked the votes to prevail over Republican opponents and GOP parliamentary maneuvers.
The collapse marked the first time since Democrats took control of the chamber that a major bill was withdrawn from consideration before a scheduled vote. It was a victory for President Bush, whose aides lobbied heavily against the Democrats' bill, and an embarrassment for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who had pushed for the measure's passage.
The draft Senate bill has the support of the intelligence committee's chairman, John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), and Bush's director of national intelligence, Mike McConnell. It will include full immunity for those companies that can demonstrate to a court that they acted pursuant to a legal directive in helping the government with surveillance in the United States.
Such a demonstration, which the bill says could be made in secret, would wipe out a series of pending lawsuits alleging violations of privacy rights by telecommunications companies that provided telephone records, summaries of e-mail traffic and other information to the government after Sept. 11, 2001, without receiving court warrants. Bush had repeatedly threatened to veto any legislation that lacked this provision.
Senate Democrats successfully pressed for a requirement that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court review the government's procedures for deciding who is to be the subject of warrantless surveillance. They also insisted that the legislation be renewed in six years, Democratic congressional officials said. The Bush administration had sought less stringent oversight by the court and wanted the law to be permanent.
The domestic surveillance issue has been awkward for Democrats since the administration's secret program of warrantless counterterrorism surveillance became public in late 2005. In August, a coalition of Republicans and dissident Democrats passed a measure backed by the White House that put that program on firm legal ground by expressly permitting the government to wiretap foreign targets without a court order, including, under certain circumstances, when those targets are communicating with people in the United States.
But Democratic leaders insisted that the law expire in February, so they could try again to impose more restrictions on the administration's ability to spy domestically. Most Democratic lawmakers and party members -- backed by civil libertarians and even some conservatives -- wanted the new legislation to ensure for example that future domestic surveillance in foreign-intelligence-related investigations would be overseen by the foreign surveillance court. The court was created in response to CIA and FBI domestic spying abuses unmasked in the mid-1970s.
But conservative Democrats worried about Republicans' charges that the Democratic bill extended too many rights to suspected terrorists. "There is absolutely no reason our intelligence officials should have to consult government lawyers before listening in to terrorist communications with the likes of Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda and other foreign terror groups," said House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio).
The measure "extends our Constitution beyond American soil to our enemies who want to cut the heads off Americans," said Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Tex.).
An adroit Republican parliamentary maneuver ultimately sank the bill. GOP leaders offered a motion that would have sent it back to the House intelligence and Judiciary committees with a requirement that they add language specifying that nothing in the measure would apply to surveilling the communications of bin Laden, al-Qaeda or other foreign terrorist organizations.
Approval of the motion would have restarted the legislative process, effectively killing the measure by delay. Democratic leaders scrambled to persuade their members to oppose it, but with Republicans accusing Democrats of being weak on terrorism, a "no" vote proved too hard to sell, and so the bill was pulled from the floor.
Stacey Bernards, a spokeswoman for House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.), called the Republican maneuver "a cheap shot, totally political."
Caroline Fredrickson, director of the Washington legislative office of the American Civil Liberties Union, called it a "perfect storm" of progressive Democrats who did not think the bill protected basic constitutional rights and of Republicans who took advantage of the lack of unity. "It was too precipitous a process, and it ended up in a train wreck," she said. "It was total meltdown."
The House bill contained safeguards against spying on U.S. citizens that the Bush administration said would have interfered with its national security investigations. Some liberals, on the other hand, complained that it still allowed the surveillance of Americans to occur without individual warrants.
It would have empowered the special surveillance court to issue warrants allowing the government to intercept for up to one year the phone calls and e-mails of groups of foreign targets, such as al-Qaeda or Hamas, without requiring that the surveillance of each person be approved. If the foreign target of the surveillance was calling a person in the United States significant enough also to be deemed an intelligence target, then an individual warrant would be required, as provided under past law.
The bill would have required the court to review the government's surveillance procedures to ensure that they were designed to target only people outside the country. Such reviews could be delayed up to 45 days after surveillance began in emergencies. It also would have barred warrantless physical searches in the United States, including of homes, offices, computers and medical records, and made clear that the National Security Agency and the CIA could not eavesdrop on targeted Americans, even those abroad, without a traditional court warrant.
It was unclear late yesterday whether similar provisions are included in the Senate version of the bill that attracted bipartisan support from lawmakers and key intelligence officials.
The Senate deal was reached after the White House made available to the intelligence committee some of the documents underlying the administration's post-Sept. 11 warrantless surveillance program, to encourage the panel to include the telecommunications immunity provision.
Democrats warned yesterday that the Senate intelligence panel's consensus bill must gain the approval of the Senate Judiciary Committee, whose chairman and ranking Republican have said, like their House counterparts, that they are wary of granting immunity to telecommunications companies.
In June, the Judiciary Committee subpoenaed the documents underlying the warrantless surveillance program, and Chairman Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) and ranking Republican Arlen Specter (Pa.) said they wanted to see those documents before endorsing any immunity clause. "I'm not going to buy a pig in a poke and commit to retroactive immunity when I don't know what went on" in the past, Specter said Tuesday on CNN's "Situation Room." "I agree with Arlen," Leahy said on the program.
© 2007 The Washington Post
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133 Comments so far
Show AllNader2000 & Daniel David -
Psychologic Vs. Logic?
I think that psychological(emotional) reasoning is trumping strictly-logical reasoning among increasing numbers of progressives and radical reform types.
And it's fair to note that Emotion/intuitional reasoning can be just as valid a way of perceiving the world as strict ratiocination.
Logic would dictate working within the Democratic party
to pull it leftward. Until recently, I too argued for this position, quite strongly. But emotional knowing increasingly tells me something is wrong with this position, because: it has been tried before, again and again, and it has failed again and again.
In a case like this, we have to re-check our premises.
Your premise seems to be that: there is no room for a viable 3rd party in current US politics because there hasn't been room in the past. [By 'room,' we mean: psychological openness to a new party, among sufficient #'s of disaffected voters.]
You might be correct; but your conclusion is based on a premise that itself is rooted in probability assessment of the past, only. You fail to give much thought to any kind of new psychological openness to a 3rd party that now appears to lie just below the surface of millions of disgusted voters i.e., a potential that could probed/tapped but for your self-fulfilling prophecy that the potential is not there and never will be.
This potential, if it's there, could not be used to re-progressivize the Democratic party or moderate the GOP because, by definition, it only exists, precisely, out of a irretrievably-lost sense of trust in both major parties.
I think this potential, for supporting a 3rd party, definitely is 'out there' in the minds and emotions of many Americans; and that unless it is competently tapped and organized into a coherent political force, the present impregnable monoply/duopoly system will become ever more fascist and take the what remains of America's democratic institutions down into the same bottomless pit.
Nobody knows which way disaffected progressives will actually vote in 2008. But, assuming most will vote Democrat and that Democrats will fully sweep-in, we know that these Democrats won't sweep-in based on truthful talk or intentions about reforming the rotten structure. Maybe a few elected official will, but surely not enough to really change anything.
And thus, won't 2008 America be in exactly the same position it is now? Its corrupted instituions serving only the rich and powerful; its disaffected voters being told by the Democratic party, once again: Well, you progressive folk will just have to wait some more?
To Zell--
to find Senate and House votes, go to Common Dreams home
page, right hand column.
Hey Democrats in Congress, can you spell FILIBUSTER.
Come on now, it's not so hard, it starts with the letter "F." Grow a back bone and fight!
Is it not time to seriously question the mental fitness of those in the core of power on US policy and it's subsequent consequences???
....... IT'S PAST TIME.
Chris Dodd Leads Where Reid Fails
http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20071019/cm_huffpost/069159
Dodd Goes to the Mat: Says He Will Filibuster FISA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYLzcziOerY
It's about time someone in the Democratic Party showed some leadership!
Support Chris Dodd's action to Block amnesty for these fascist criminals in the TelComm industry.
RichM,
Excellent list of examples you raise. I think your overall conclusion, however, based on those facts is somewhat flawed. You seem to be angry that Democrats have not been doing their job, which implicitly would be to resist the further concentration of wealth and policymaking into the hands of those that are already wealthy and powerful.
I think you should consider the possibility that Democrats are instead doing their job perfectly. That job being somewhat thankless, as I outline above, in that they must allow themselves to take one on the chin, publicly, for the team.
The fact that Clinton is the Democratic frontrunner is testimony to the incredible efficacy of the Democratic Party on behalf of the rainmakers. Also, that most Americans continue to believe that the Democratic Party is a legitimate opposition party that only lacks fortitude and competence commensurate with Republicans.
Gravel's idea of National Initiative for Democracy needs to be perfected. We the people will need to reclaim our rightful position on top of the totem pole. Direct legislation is our only hope for real democracy at this point.
There is 1 ruling party in the USA: The MICC (military/industrial/congressional complex).
Quote:
"The next election is going to define the philosophical direction of our country for a long, time (because of the Supreme Court, and many other reasons.)"
This is what is known as the GREAT LIE. It been said repeatedly every election I can remember (1968)Workers didn´t get the "right to strike" by an Act of Congress, they DEMANDED it by striking repeatedly and, you all should understand, ILLEGALLY. Blacks didn´t receive the right to vote by beknighted Dems, they DEMANDED it regularly and got an old racist like LBJ to realize that if he pushed it forward, he´d get the votes later on.
All this pissing and moaning about politicians is fluff. They need votes. Stop giving it to them and to other parties and you watch how fast they cave in. The problem is progressives continue to get scared. Well, shit, scared of what people? The Bill of Rights being rendered irrelevant? Done. Endless war? Done. Imperial projects designed for the next century? Done.Hatred for America. Done, big time.
Every election is an opportunity to frighten the pols to shame. Every time you elect a Dem, you hurt yourself and delay the (hopefully)inevitable. The Reps at least are clear about their strategies and loyalties (money, racists, religious kooks) The Dems just lie that they are for you. They are not. When will you awaken, America?
As for IRV, right on about it still being winner take all. However, if it was used, for ex. in just Senate races it would still accomplish a small in to the system for dissident ideas and people. PR is my personal choice but the bottom line is NO Dem or Rep will give you either because it would mean that they would LOSE occasionally. You just have to vote others in regularly and gradually you will get the system you want. Otherwise you are no better off than a beaten wife continually submitting to an abusive husband.
Thank you Democratic party for taking more of our constitutional rights from us. Your leadership is admired by few. Our President wins again. Who says President Bush is irrelevant in his final days in office, he is a WINNER!
That's right, sheeple, keep yelling into your computers. As long as you are not on the streets voicing dissent and destroying status quo, there will be no change.
When the government fears the people it is a democracy....when the people fear their government it is tyranny. - Thomas Jefferson
I agree, Daniel David.
First, get rid of the Republicans (2008).
Then, get rid of the Democrats (2010, and later).
Or risk, 4 more years of Bushmocracy, after which there will be no Constitution/voting to worry about.
The dems are not gutless, they are calculating collaborators. And what happens to collaborators?
Republicans? Democrats? Same shit, different flies.
so it really doesn't matter who wins.
"It doesn't matter who they vote for; they always vote for us." Joseph Stalin
Daniel David
You talk about the Democrats winning, as though that trumps the Democrats' failure to deal with the urgent reality of America's constitutional crisis. It doesn't. A Democratic win won't bring America any closer to its constitutional roots than a Republican win, so it really doesn't matter who wins.
The Democrats might add some sugar to the spoon (like a higher minimum wage or S-Chip if Bush's veto had been overriden), but that won't change the character of what America will be forced to swallow. Sugar-coating arsenic doesn't make it less lethal.
On the other hand, a Republican win might finally open America's eyes to the unconstitutional agenda the Republicans began and the Democrats have supported. That might empower a fix for this constitutional disaster even more quickly than a Democratic win.
Nader2000,
Thanks for your informative comment, but I think maybe you miss the point of progressives advocating IRV.
Did you ever do any computer programming (I did quite a bit as a young man)? What is intoxicating about programming is that each version of a program one creates in trying to accomplish a task provides evidence of noticeable progress, that the programmer finds to be invigorating positive feedback. With IRV, and some other innovative voting schemes, the possibility of such invigorating positive feedback is there. The current system clearly builds apathy with its paucity of positive feedback, and the oligarchy is very happy with things the way they are.
The left needs to create positive feedback loops working in the progressive direction, building a foundation with tangible results, and give up on these get-rich-quick schemes of electing a progressive tomorrow (note that I am not accusing you of such).
Democrat and Republican. Twin wings of the same Bird of Prey.
The Democrats are not "caving" and they are not incompetent and stupid.
Rather, they think the people, the voters, are incompetent and stupid.
Re-elect them again and you will prove them right.
To some of you folks who think I'm either nuts or nefarious for supporting Democrats, I'm gonna call you a name:
You're patriots! You care enough to express to others.
You're also fixin' to have your considerable talents rendered irrelevant for the election of 2008. The next election is going to define the philosophical direction of our country for a long, time (because of the Supreme Court, and many other reasons.) Some folks got fooled by Bush in 2000, but none are going to be fooled in '08. Giuliani and Thompson are what they are, and a lot of people are going to vote for their positions, eyes wide open. It's a reality that they're going to get a LOT of the vote, maybe even WIN the vote
Every voter has to choose from what's on the table. The Cindy/Ralph/Dennis party is not on the table, and it's not going to be, except for those who simply won't face reality.
I'm going to say the same thing that RichM has said.
The primary reason progressives are moving farther and farther away from the Democrats who were elected by them in 2006 is because the Democrats refuse to recognize that their most urgent charge is to restore the government to its Constitutional basis, beginning with ending the war in Iraq. NOTHING else is more important to America.
Even with a small majority, a majority party holds all the cards — the majority decides what bills get out of committees and onto the floor for votes. Instead of standing strong on constitutional grounds, the Democrats instead decided to take impeachment off the table and negotiate with Congressional Bush supporters on unconstitutional bills, when they should NEVER have done that. Their reputation has gone down the tubes because of this extremely unwise approach, and in fact, before 2006, they did not stand as a minority for what was constitutional either, with a few shining exceptions — Russ Feingold comes to mind, as does Dennis Kuchinich.
This is NOT the time for Democratic consensus building, when the Republican agenda is to firmly entrench and keep the illegal unconstitutional programs of the Bush administration. It has been knock-out time since the Democrats gained the majority in the 2006 elections, and yet it seems they can't even blow out a candle. You don't fight criminals and bullies with the elaborate rules of fencing — you fight to disable them.
Excellent remark above by Jake Jaspers (5:03 am). It bears repeating: "When it comes to political possibilities, I think you Democratic apologists, however well meaning, are not even comparable to the resistant Whigs: You are really no different than the pre-Revolutionary Tories: Fearful; constipated, morally compromised; endlessly rationalizing an un-fixable, outrageous system...."
We got to where we are today -- a state of protofascism -- by "working within the 2-party system." Not only have the Democrats utterly failed to resist this development, they've not even tried to warn the population that THAT is essentially what's been happening. Not only have they not tried to warn us, they've HELPED the Republicans in passing all the spying legislation, the torture legislation, the war funding, the PATRIOT Acts, "Homeland" Security Act, etc -- which constitute the framework for a police state.
How could any party do worse than the Democrats have done? They've collaborated with our enemies, while doing nothing whatever for us. When they've campaigned "against" Bush, they haven't attacked him for the fundamental thrust of his policies -- like the fraudulent "War on Terror," or for violations of the Constitution. They've only attacked him for not managing the War on Terror as "competently" as they claim they would. (Note that ALL Democrats accept without challenge the notion of the "War on Terror" -- which is Bush's invention.)
Every Bush appointee has been approved by Democratic senators -- even Alberto Gonzales. The Dems could have filibustered Alito and Roberts, but didn't. The Dems could have demanded serious 9-11 investigations, but didn't. They could have demanded serious investigations of the 2000 & '04 elections, but didn't. They could have blocked war funding, but didn't. And to this day, they do not portray the Iraq War as illegal, or as a moral crime. Rather, they insist that the basic problem with it is that it's been "poorly managed."
Their record is one of collaboration. They haven't helped the American population one bit -- and haven't even tried to. The accurate characterization of their "efforts" is that they've worked hand-in-glove with Bush, while attempting to fool their own base into believing they've tried to oppose him. They represent the worst possible kind of political treachery -- utterly unprincipled, two-faced, betrayers of their own base. In the last 7 years, their batting average is .000 -- and this is what Dem Party apologists want you to keep supporting.
That fervent and aggressive promoter of 'DEMOCARCY! FREEDOM!!' in the world, yes, the USA, is rapidly and happily sliding into fascism. Few ordinary Americans care (despite these posts on CD) because they are too fat, too comfortable, and too much consumed with Paris Hilton and her ilk. The political elite that does care is being paid for by the same paymasters regardless of party affiliation. We'll see what happens when the world's reserve currency becomes the euro. Would that wake up the people? The great American Republic --- it was good knowing ya! A damned shame really; the idea that brought about the USA was so promising.
Jake Jaspers:
>> Why don't YOU trust the ability of The People to break with 165 yrs of history and form a successful new party? (cf: Whigs-to Republicans.)
You cite the one exception, which proves the rule. The sole example of a breakup of the two-party system and its reformation (as a new two-party system) is the one that occurred over the crisis of slavery, which we ended up fighting a civil war over. One important characteristic of this crisis which made a breakup of one of the parties possible was the geographical division of the nation into slave- and non-slave states. Anyway, this was a century and a half ago and every attempt to organize a third party and make it a serious contender for power has failed since then. Meanwhile, the Democrats and Republicans have traded places on the left-right spectrum. The two parties have morphed in every direction to accommodate new issues and new constituencies. That process will continue.
The basic reason why third-party efforts fail is winner-take-all elections, which mean that the third party always loses, one election cycle after another. Life is too short for people to commit themselves to losing dreams. Instead, they will compromise and join whichever of the two coalitions that has some access to power is closest to their position and most willing to support at least some of their interests.
The good news is that the two-party system is loose and open to new players who can organize in any way they wish. If you can dream of organizing left people directly into a mass movement that might be able to win an election, then it just has to be much easier to do that within the two-party system, and gain influence within or ultimately take over the Democratic Party, than it would be to organize a new party.
Jaded Prole:
Thanks for adding your comment on my "irrelevance" to the many others who have taken the time to respond to my posts.
VAGreen:
Multi-member districts would bring this country closer to a PR system, but not much closer if you consider the distribution of seats by state, and compare what happens in other countries which have mixed PR and single-member systems. You would still end up with two dominant parties. There would be more room for a challenger to win some seats in Congress. It isn't clear that this would produce any more progressive outcomes in our national politics. Consider an example of a pure nationwide PR system: Israel. Beacon of hope for the Left?
IRV is another false hope. It would certainly lead to more money, effort and votes going into third-party movements. However, not just one big Green Party, but lots of little We're-more-correct-than-they-are parties of every stripe from left to right to sideways would flourish in the warmer climate of IRV. And those movements would still fail to win power. IRV is still winner-take-all. I see no reason to believe that IRV would lead to unity on the left and progressive victories on election day. Given the many small Left splinter groups that flourish today, I would expect the opposite. So no, I don't support IRV. It distracts from the real need of the Left to organize, mobilize, and fight, realistically, for every inch of progress we can make, on the only road to real power, which passes through the Democratic Party.
Anyone know Web site to determine how specific sens voted? Thanks.
1. I agree that the Dems haven't done all they can. And it is true they can't break a filibuster. We need to elect enough, probably 9 and 10 for sure next election. And for sure a Dem Prez no matter who. The Supreme court is on the verge and one more conservative on it can undo everything that is still intact. And that will last for another 20 years. I don't contend this is more important than lives being lost isn't the most pressing issue, but it is important to realize that one more wingnut judge and they will overturn not just Roe v. Wade, but Social security, medicare, most large social programs. Remember Social Security only survived by a 5 to 4 vote in the 30s despite a court that at that time was liberal. Think of the damage that could be done, millions of seniors in poverty, no healthcare for them. Medicaid, Schip. If you don't think that the right wingers won't push for all of this as they become more and more emboldened, you are wrong. If you listen to right wing talk, their overall objective is to totally overturn the new deal of FDR, the new society of the 60s and 70s of the war on poverty, medicare, etc.
The electorate in the last 7 years has made the Dems extremely gun shy and the constant lies from prez and repugnets do echo across the land and it is unfortunate that this still resonates in the red states. I live in Georgia and hear the wingnuts exicited that this can occur in our lifetime; Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia are licking their chops for just one more wingnut Supreme court judge and we can begin. Justice Breyer, liberal is 87, Ginsberg, Stevens, and Souter in their 70s DANGER! DANGER! DANGER! Roberts, Alito, Scalia, Thomas, just licking their chops for one more wingnut
We must support the Dems and nurse them along no matter what!!! Don't vote for any 3rd party candidates, don't sign any petitions to get other candidates on the ballot in any state. THIS COMING ELECTION IS THAT IMPORTANT.
REMEMBER DIVIDE US AND THEY WIN!!!!!!.
Democrats make mild protests for show against the Rethuglicans and then trip over themselves to go along with the Rethugs wishes. Actions speak louder than words. If they think I'm voting for them, they can think again. Kucinich, Gravel or Richardson are the only Democrats I'd consider voting for.
pistonbroke October 19th, 2007 8:59 am
"It's not the Republicans or the Democrats who are the problem in the western world but the Israeli lobby since they are the ones pushing the agenda. Most Jews, not all have only one allegiance and that is to Israel if you don't believe me just listen to a cantor sung in any sin-a-gog in the world."
Actually, most American Jews oppose the Iraq war and are critical of the Israeli Government's policies.
"The holocaust was blown up out of all proportion to what actually happened with one aim in mind, to elicit sympathy for their cause."
Um...It's only the most studied genocide in all of history. Please take Holocaust denial elsewhere.
A vote for a mainstream Democratic candidate is a wasted vote for a progressive.
There is equal chance that Cheney is going to fall to his knees and ask God for forgiveness for his bloodlust and that a mainstream Democrat is going to embrace a government of the people and for the people.
It is becoming quite clear what our two party system is about. The voting on policy proves decisively at this point we have one party in America, despite all the rhetoric and posturing and ostensible division into two factions. It seems every day some vote on the Hill confirms this.
The Democratic faction of the one corporate party sort of has a raw deal in that it must allow itself to be portrayed as utterly ineffective, cowardly, and incompetent. To boot, it must perpetrate a much more sophisticated deception of the public than the republican faction. The Democrats must constantly maintain the illusion that they sincerely intend to rectify the obvious injustices of the system as it stands. Clearly, they are very effective at this difficult job, as most still consider the Democrats to stand in sharp contrast to Republicans on a wide range of issues, including Iraq, despite the voting record.
When viewed this way, the Democrats should not be viewed as incompetent but rather as supremely competent in their main objective -- to grant the illusion of choice, the illusion of representation for the majority of the public. It has been proven that the public, though it will select the adjective "conservative" for itself, in fact endorses progressive policies across the board -- in Iraq, with health care, education, etc.
The Republicans are also tasked with a complex trick. Namely, how does one simultaneously posture as moral and righteous Christian Party while sleeping around with all sorts of seedy types of both genders outside of wedlock and running amock in the world killing foreigners as if it were a video game?
I still believe the National Initiative for Democracy, or some analagous movement, is the only hope to address this political quagmire. The people have to forcibly take the reins back. I don't think any sort of fantastic revolution is necessary. This is our country and our government.
Anyone who believes Democrats are viable options are either idiots or Rovian plants (Nader 2000).
Ralph Nader had the power to change 2000 and America needs his help again. We can't afford another Clinton in the White House. At least with another Republican, we know who our enemy really is.
Democratic voters are weak-minded fools, as stupid as their Republicans counterparts. VOTE SHEEHAN.
Well, aside from "pistonbroke" who seems to have lived up to his name, it seems that some sense is finally hitting you guys over there on the other side of the pond. JadedProle and VAGreen have given, in those last two posts, a quick sum of the problem.
You cannot get the system you want by voting for people who don´t want your system.
Personally I support the Green Party because it´s earth orientation seems to make sense to me in light of various environmental problems. As well, it has some orgainized structure (though its increasingly being taken over by Dem apologists, linked at the hip to "reformists" in the Dem party)
But it doesn´t matter. New forms of electoral choice cannot be acheived by voting for either Dems or Reps. You have to get third party members of Congress, definitely get more third party local officials and gradually put pressure to change the system. IRV, proportional rep, abolition of the Electoral College, etc. are all possibles (and supported by the Greens, btw) and utilized in various combinations by most European countries to great success (did you know even Iran has Jewish members of parlaiment?)
I have been around long enough to know that long-term thinking and constant dialogue on the several most important issues is the way to win. When Leftists abandoned class politics to the more divisive identity politics, it drove away the most powerful (and numerous) bunch of supporters we need to win--working class whites. Getting them back is quite doable--even Edwards understands this. But Edwards, as a Dem doesn´t want our system. Vote third party as often and as widely as you can and begin the process.
It's not the Republicans or the Democrats who are the problem in the western world but the Israeli lobby since they are the ones pushing the agenda. Most Jews, not all have only one allegiance and that is to Israel if you don't believe me just listen to a cantor sung in any sin-a-gog in the world.
The holocaust was blown up out of all proportion to what actually happened with one aim in mind, to elicit sympathy for their cause.
If you're considered a victim just getting your own back then there's no end to what you can get away with, just look at the actions of Israel over the past 70 years, not pretty is it.
"The reality is that the two-party system is not much more than a structure for politics to be conducted within a Constitution that essentially mandates winner-take-all, district-by-district elections."
There is nothing in the Constitution that mandates single-member districts in the House of Representatives. Multi-member districts can be permitted by a simple majority in the House and Senate. When Cynthia McKinney was in Congress, she introduced bills to allow multi-member districts.
"What the Damn-the-Dems chorus is really trying to do is recruit more pissed-off leftists into their little cults of futility that pretend to be about proletarian revolution or Instant Revolution Voting..."
Are you in favor of Instant Runoff Voting? There are 16 states where there are Democratic governors and Democratic legislatures. They could pass IRV and end the "spoiler" issue for the Presidential, Senate, and statewide races in 16 states.
Congratulations to you Nader2000. You have achieved complete irrelevancy. The Dims don't care what you think because they know you'll support them. The Repugs of course don't care. And everyone else knows that you and other liberals are not going to take over the democratic party -- it's already taken over and aside from the wink and nod that feeds your misplaced loyalty, you are really locked out.
The 2 party system is a sham that undermines democracy while maintaining a puppet show for the masses. A multi-party system would be much closer to a democracy. Yes, some should work with the Dims to keep the pressure up but they are powerless unless there are alternatives. It's that simple.
We need to build an alternatives starting with our support of Cindy Sheehan. We need to keep pushing independent progressive candidates. I guarantee that the Dims will pay more attention to its progressive wing if it's getting real competiton from the left. You may think that's unlikely if you buy into what the corporatocracy feeds you instead of listening to people but I firmly believe a populist message that speaks to the interests of the vast majority will find support.
Nader2000 - The Democratic "leadership", that is, a certain set of politicians (including Pelosi, Reid and others) has concluded that it cannot marshal the votes to pass a bill that might be more pleasing to their constituents and to us....
You moron, the outrage here is not due to the Democrats inability to pass their own bills, it's due to the Democrats inability to block Republican bills. The Democratic leadership can stop basically anything from coming to the floor in either house, and yet they continue to allow Bush's agenda to get a vote over and over again. Maybe you could excuse the Democrats refusal to stop Bush when they were in the minority, but there is no excuse now, and in fact, it is blatantly obvious that the vast majority of Democrats are collaborating with the GOP.
Please come to grips with this: Daniel David, Nader2000:
A good number of us who voted for congress Democrats over the years, feel betrayed by them. Why? Because WE HAVE BEEN betrayed by them. Not just once. But again and again and again. And not just by a few Democrats, but by the majority of them. On a host of supremely important issues.
Talk about 2008 election logistics all you like. You may even be correct that our breaking with the Democrats will benefit the Republicans in the short term.
It doesn't matter. There is no trust left in many of us, for the Democratic Party. How can there be?
If you really belive that trust is needed, tell it to the party leaders who broke the trust; not to us who gave it only to have it betrayed time and again. These corrupt leaders have the party locked-up from top to bottom, and their winning the 2008 election won't change that fact or their positions of power or their corrupt ways.
You talk about trust? Why don't YOU trust the ability of The People to break with 165 yrs of history and form a successful new party? (cf: Whigs-to Republicans.)
When it comes to political possibilities, I think you Democratic apologists, however well meaning, are not even comparable to the resistant Whigs: You are really no different than the pre-Revolutionary Tories: Fearful; constipated, morally compromised; endlessly rationalizing an un-fixable, outrageous system.
Trust the angels of your Better Nature, as Lincoln said. Distrust your self-defeating fear of 'impracticality.' I believe you are good people who intend good. But your advice is bad. Your fears are, in the end, far less practical than our hopes.
I am so disgusted with the Democrats that I actually feel tempted to not vote for them anymore but that would be playing into the Republicans' hands. The biggest favor we can do for the Repukes is to not vote or vote for a third party candidate. But once the Dems are fully in power, we should begin the house cleaning and have REAL progressive candidates run and retake the Democratic Party. Until that time, our aim should be the absolute emasculation of the Republican Party to ensure that they remain a tiny powerless minority for generations to come.
The biggest casualty of this chaos is the loss of hope as embodied by the US Constitution.
This administration has used the illegal Iraq war and phony War On Terrorism to shred any and all constitutional constraints protecting individual rights.
The failure of the population to see the need for vigilance as counselled time and again by our founding fathers has rendered such exercises moot.
As a result we have a fascist state controlled by a corporate oligarchy- no more, no less.
Corporations Rule.
In a fascist state all welfare is for corporate well-being.
The existing ruling corporate oligarchy is only reaping the benefits from funding US Congressional lackey lickspits to do their bidding.
How many issues that you thought you voted in 2006 to have resolved have been addressed successfully?
We are exposed to one of the most honest Congresses in history - Once bought and paid for, it has stayed bought and paid for.
RichM-
If you reject the call to "organize and mobilize voters" as the way forward, what is your plan, then?
It increasingly seems to me that you must be in the Red camp rather than the Green. Reds sometimes talk up the Green Party as part of the strategy of alienating people from the electoral process itself.
Since you admit you have no hope of winning power through the ballot, maybe you are thinking the bullet?
I know there are lots of little fantasy Lenins and Trotskys and Maos out there, with closet gun fetishes and dreams of storming the Capitol steps just like that pissed-off vet said back in the Day. Come on out of the closet, Rich. You dream of raising the armed masses of workers to overthrow capitalism, right? Just like 1918 all over again, eh? Dream on.
I'm not an historian of the FDR era, but my cursory reading is that after the collapse of the stock market it was decided that the banks needed to be socially insured. That is, if the corrupt private elite caused them to fail in the future, the taxpayer would bail them out (like the S&L fleecing half a century later). It may arguably be another case of socialism for the poor, capitalism for the wealthy. FDIC was created in '33 though apparently FDR originally opposed it, since it would protect irresponsible bankers.
I'm personally in favor of all tactics -- whatever it takes:
* Takeover of the Dems for the first time.
* Takeover of the Republicans. Yes, their rank-and-file are upset also.
* Third Party/Independent movements, Green Party, populists, etc.
* Non-electoral politics (boycotts, strikes, etc.). The cultural movement.
I don't see any reason why we should omit one or the other.
Nader2000 writes, "And this is to the good. It means that no one can prevent progressives from winning Democratic primaries, winning office, and increasing our influence or even taking over this thing called the 'Democratic Party'." Apparently, the secret to achieving this felicitous outcome is simply that we must "organize and mobilize voters."
So, if it's so simple, how come there NEVER has been a progressive takeover of the Dem Party? * How come the two-party system ALWAYS "just happens" to select administrations (of either party) chock full of Wall St lawyers & Fortune 500 executives, and ALWAYS just happens to be entirely friendly to the Pentagon budget, to interventions overseas, to covert CIA operations, & the like?
I guess no "progressives" ever thought of deep & subtle plans like yours before. "Oh yeah, we gotta ORGANIZE and MOBILIZE voters." Now why didn't I think of that? ( *** slaps own forehead *** )
* PS - Don't tell me about FDR & the New Deal. That was a special case due to a special crisis. It was NOT remotely a "progressive takeover" of the Dem Party. It was an effort to head off massive social unrest, & to diminish the appeal of the socialist & militant labor union left, by stealing their ideas, & offering diluted versions of those ideas. It was an effort to save capitalism from itself, by granting temporary class concessions.
Since I crave irony, Nader2000 is to me like a salt lick to a deer.
It ought not to be gratifying to be lectured on shortsightedness, futility, and sinister or malicious motives by a supercilious centrist hamster between spurts on its rickety lesser-evil treadmill-- which it evidently regards as a crucifix of sorts. But there it is.
Once again the Damn-the-Dems chorus chimes in to say "the Democrats" have more votes than "the Republicans" and therefore, QED, they are in position to pass whatever they want. Therefore we are told that this development proves that "the Democrats" are either caving in or are co-conspirators with Bush.
The irony is that what this actually shows is that their "the Democrats" is a fictitious entity. The Democratic "leadership", that is, a certain set of politicians (including Pelosi, Reid and others) has concluded that it cannot marshal the votes to pass a bill that might be more pleasing to their constituents and to us, the left, because many of "the Democrats" are more conservative or hail from conservative districts which could be lost in the next round. While the Republican Party had been able to act more as a cohesive unit in recent years (but is now unraveling), the Democratic Party remains a weak coalition. And that is to the good.
The reality is that the two-party system is not much more than a structure for politics to be conducted within a Constitution that essentially mandates winner-take-all, district-by-district elections. It is a structure which has been formalized and given a quasi-legal status, in which primary elections are conducted by the government and the "parties" have to accept their outcomes. The two parties that inexorably form under this Constitution are only weakly centralized and hierarchical, and are in reality coalitions of often antagonistic interest groups, subject to constant struggles for dominance and turnovers of leadership.
And this is to the good. It means that no one can prevent progressives from winning Democratic primaries, winning office, and increasing our influence or even taking over this thing called the "Democratic Party". They can and will work to make it difficult, but if we can organize and mobilize voters we can win power through the two-party system, whereas there is essentially no chance of winning power any other way.
What the Damn-the-Dems chorus is really trying to do is recruit more pissed-off leftists into their little cults of futility that pretend to be about proletarian revolution or Instant Revolution Voting, and that come and go as another permanent feature of this system, an epiphenomenon with no discernable impact on the actual course of events, other than to drain the energies of the left and spoil elections. They never win, they never can, they never will.
RichM:
Yes, the article is definitely Washington Post's handiwork. How "embarrassing" it is to be danced around. Why would anyone question that obvious certainty? That's what our leaders do, and it's what they are supposed to do. Capitulate when the opponent uses clever parliamentary procedures.
I'm afraid that's all we can expect of these goons. What a friggin' disappointment.
Did someone say that it's time for a third party, or in this case actually a second party, to oppose the Corporate Party?
Bildan and RichardM,
Vote Green go for it!
When the liberals or any group split their votes, winner takes all..... Just math here.
Just the same if the Republicans start a 3rd party they well lose their chance of winning.
This is not something that is hard to get, simple math if you use logic.
My point was that voting for Nader Got Bush Elected not that if you want a Green president you should help the Dems ...if you say 500 votes fine. Gore was ill advised to just want a recount in the Dem districts and was why the Federal Supreme court stopped the recount.
When the newspapers did the recount of the whole state...Gore won the election! If Gore would have called for a whole state recount he would have won in 2000. It was his fault because it was in the Republican districts that were not counting all his votes!
He never thought about that even though it made more sense....I thought it was a mistake right away.
Do the Greens have a candidate?
If not Help them find one and get out and vote. It may be your last.
Good Luck!
Dems are not spineless. They are doing their constituents' bidding. Their constituents are not much different than those of the Repubs'. They are: military industrial complex, big oil and Israel.
A Democrat said this today:
"You don't have money to fund the war or children," he told Republicans. "But you're going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the president's amusement."
Republicans condemned the remark.
and has anyone heard from Obama, Hillary, Edwards etc during the past few days on any of these issues? Nope. THey've been ultra quiet, and shown absolutely no leadership.
Republicans Campaign, 2008- We're going to rip you off.
Democrats Campaign, 2008- We're going to pretend to represent you, but then we're going to turn around and rip you off.
RichM:
Excellent summary. It's astounding that so few see the writing on the wall. They will eventually, though. Too bad they'll drag the whole country down in their ignorance.
IRV:
I'm personally in favor of Range instead. In any case, unity isn't the purpose. The purpose is to give more choice -- not less. I would expect the Rethugs to split into a few parties: Big Money, Big Guns, Big Oil, Big Israel, Big Bibles and Big Market. I'd expect the Dems to splinter into several parties also: Big Money, Big Guns, Big Oil, Big Israel, Big Environment, Big Labor, Big Progressives (a small minority).
Then the electorate could Range them. For instance, 0-10, the higher the better.
Apparently the only thing less useful, less effective, less wooden headed than a Bush is the forest of Congressional Democrat office holders.
If they genuinely cared about this country's future, you would think they would resign in disgrace and let someone else in office so that the lunatics in the White House who are systematically destroying our future can finally be stopped.
It utterly amazes me how incompetent the current Democrat "leadership" (an oxymoron if I ever saw one) are at doing anything that might reign in, or preferably buck off, the Cowboy Impersonator-in-Chief. We desperately need democrat office holders who are savvy, unafraid, tenacious and willing to impeach. Instead, we have a collection of Keystone Kops.
Nader has been right all along, hasn't he? The question is, when will the DemocRATS apologize?
DemoCRAPS are the reason we're still in Iraq.
VOTE SHEEHAN. VOTE NADER.
Gosh, Nancy, it's a good thing you're not impeaching anybody so you still have time to get some good legislation passed and make progress instead of bogging down our nation in hearings and recriminations. Keep on moving America forward! Great spirit of monopartisanship! I mean "bipartisanship"! Very unspiring!
VAGreen October 18th, 2007 8:50 pm
Well said VAGreen.
As I said before, the current "Democratic" Presidential Canidates actively and outspokenly support the following:
1-Remaining in Iraq with 75,000+ troops indefinately as an imperial presence
2-Threatening and military bullying, and propoganda versus Iran, and an imperialistic foreign policy in general.
3-Government/executive torture, indefinate imprisonment without charge, trial, or access to a lawyer (Habeaus Corpus).
4-Domestic government spying, harassing, intimidation and the squelching of free speech (such as "Free Speech Zones"), controlling the media and demonizing/attacking the character of anyone opposing them.
5-A 1 trillion dollar per year military budget, government borrowing and spending money it doesn't have.
6-Health Insurance exploitation for Profit.
7-More and more "protections" and government handouts/bailouts for the already wealthy, and corperations. Heck forget corperations lobbying anymore, the corperations now work INSIDE the government
This is the platform of your 2008 "Democratic" frontrunner canidates, Hillary, Obama and Edwards. Is the aforementioned platform/positions what you consider to be a Democratic platform? Does it represent us as Democratic voters? Does it represent half of the country, heck even 60% of the country on some issues which leans to the left?
Are you aware that this is what you are voting for in 2008, with these 3 canidates?
Daniel David October 18th, 2007 3:07 pm
"Seems simple to me. When you want the Democrats to stop "caving" to the Republicans, you get so many Democrats in both The White House and Congress that there is no actual Republican power to "cave" to."
If you keep rewarding bad behavior by the Democrats with your vote, you're going to get more of it. I don't think that it's enough to hope for the Democrats to maybe do the right thing at some time in the future when it's absolutely, positively, 100% safe for them.
"And there is no reason (other than perhaps our own foot-shooting) why we cannot turn this tide and be looking backwards from 2016 at how much improvement Mr. Obama or Mrs. Clinton recaptured during eight years in office."
Given what I've seen from the Democratic Party in the past 15 years, I hope you can understand why I might be a little skeptical of that. Just when I think that there is some depth to which they will not join the Republicans in sinking, they prove me wrong.
He everybody--Mark Fiore has just what the Dems need--Go take a look for yourself--
http://www.markfiore.com/
If everyone would send thier favorite gutless Democrat this url, it might give them the idea.
"commander_n_chimp October 18th, 2007 2:11 pm
Thank you Ralph Nader and Ralph Nader voters! Your non-votes for Al Gore in the 1999 elections helped to put me in power, where I have been able to read your penis enlargement and nigerian banking scam emails from the oval office. Al Gore would have been too serious to do that. Thank you for enabling me to tear up the constitution.
I hope Ralph Nader runs for president this coming election. He is perfectly qualified for the position of commander in chief of cloud coocooland while the Republicans continue to hold America hostile."
Yep, Ralph Nader makes the Democrats give Bush pretty much whatever the hell he wants. It's all part of his plot to make things worse so that they can get better.
Its a beautiful day in my neighborhood, my neighborhood, my neigh... oh hello boys and girls.
Today we're gonna talk about fascism. Can you say that... fascism? I knew that you could.
What part of "Revolution" does anyone not understand?
"An adroit Republican parlimentary maneuver..". Ever since the grand dame of the Washing-ton Post conveniently had her head bashed in that paper has clearly become as valuable to the legal mafia as is The New York Times, which paper fervently beats the drums of war when it's needed and then switches gear to pretend they're the champions of the people when more subtlety is required.
And, certainly, it was no coincidence that Blackwater had their American debut on the streets of New Orleans and that the American people have always been relentlessly spied on by their owners. Or that those concentration camps are preprepared. Or that the U.S. government mafia employs hundreds of thousands of foreign mercenaries who do not speak english. And it's no coincidence that government mafia is now threatening World War III if they don't get their way, because they see the coming end of their dominence as surely as any other careful watcher and their remedy, as always, is to have a war where they can incapacitate the opposition abroad but, most importantly, at home. By the diminishment of the numbers of capable young men who could revolt they can maintain their iron grip on power for another generation. A war and a draft are just exactly the remedies for all of the government's problems.
Telling My Friends!
(From Senator Dodd's Site)
The Military Commissions Act. Warrantless wiretapping. Shredding of Habeas Corpus. Torture. Extraordinary Rendition. Secret Prisons.
No more.
Senator Dodd has decided to place a "hold" on the latest FISA bill that would have included retroactive immunity telecommunications companies that enabled the President's assault on the Constitution by providing personal information on their customers without judicial authorization.
Not now. Not again. And when he is elected President, Restoring the Constitution is what he will do in his FIRST HOUR in the Oval Office.
Please indicate your support for Senator Dodd's hold by signing on and consider sharing your thoughts in the comment section.
http://www.chrisdodd.com/fisa
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/10/05/DI2007100502319.html
Seriously, commander_in_chimp.
Nader voters did not cost anyone the election. You vote for who you want to win, not who is "electable" A term so rife in contradiction since the person who gets the most votes(he he) is elected, and anyone who is perceived as able to get the most votes is considered electable. So, chimp, a little PR is all that is necessary to change perception.
People voted for Nader because Gore was a lobbyist's robotic pull-string figure who forgot why he was in politics in the first place. If Gore wanted those voters, he should have done a better job of having passionate principles.
This is NOT an issue of Dimms or Repugs. It's not a PARTY problem. It's about the INDIVIDUALS who are ON THE BALLOT and are voted into office. To say you will NEVER vote Dimm again is not the way to fix this mess. The PRIMARIES are where the real action is. Let's get some candidates that actually represent the PEOPLE nominated and on the ballot. And THEN, if there isn't a decent candidate for you to vote FOR, find one that does or write in a candidate. Not voting is not an option. Voting for the lessor of two evils is also NOT an option.
Cindy Sheehan is doing us a great service by opossing Nancy. But I almost wish that she had entered the Dimm primary first and then converted to Independent or Green if she wasn't nominated.
Another point is to NEVER give money to the Dimm or Repug party. EVER! Only give money and support to individual candidates that you genuinely can support. No matter what party anyone belongs to, they have been abandoned by their party. I think it's probably worse for the folks that idendify with the Repug party. Can you imagine how they feel? Mitch McConnel? Schrub? Cheney? What a damn mess!
Please support Kucinich in the primaries. After that, all bets are off.
When Einstein escorted Godel to be sworn in as an American citizen, the judge Philip Forman asked Godel, "Do you think a dictatorship like that in Germany could ever arise in the United States?" Godel replied affirmatively noting that the U.S. constitution's axiomatic principles formally allowed just such a regime to come to power.
Madam speaker,
Have you forgotten your oath, to uphold and defend the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic?
Wiretapping, secret prisons, extraordinary rendition, torture, chemical weapons used in war, unilateral treaty breaches, abuse of National Security Letters, the departure of Habeas Corpus, private mercenary contractors making campaign contributions,Guantanamo Bay, to name a few are violative of the Constitution you have taken the oath to defend.
I respectfully submit that the failure to intervene on behalf of the Constitution and the protections it affords us as American citizens makes you complicit in the destruction thereof and would warrant your resignation, or impeachment.
Impeachment of the President and Vice President would be too gentle and ineffectual an action. Criminal indictments would be more appropriate for the President, the Vice President, the ex Attorney General, and the Secretary of Defense.
Criminal Negligence should be considered as charges against all the foregoing. Yet you have taken impeachment "off the table."
Remember please, the Constitution was written to give us "civil liberties", or "personal freedoms" from the government. To protect us from the government. It is inappropriate for you to allow those enumerated rights to be compromised in order to allow the President to spy on us, deceive us, and claim to keep us safe. That action on your part is an outrage!
Perhaps you lack the testicular fortitude to take action on behalf of the American people to protect them from the government as mandated by the Constitution. As the first woman acting, or should I say posturing as speaker of the house, surely you can appreciate that thought. May I humbly suggest that posturing is not acting in the best interest of the greatest country in the world.
Newt Gingrich, or another man never would have stood for this ongoing and fraudulent abuse being perpetrated by the executive branch against both Congress and the American Constitution, and the patriotic Americans who elected you to defend us.
This fanatical Administration is not done. There will be much more abuse, and the obvious attack of Iran, threatening our economic viability, and even the potential for Martial Law. This Administration must be checked by what could be a co equal branch of government.
There should be no greater priority on the calendar. It is further suggested that no funding for this misguided occupation of Iraq and presumably the filling of the black ops war chest for Iran should be provided until the administration provides proper information to Congress in a timely manner as it must.
It is respectfully urged that you either stand up, or step down!
Respectfully,
Alexander Rahman JD
Raleigh, NC
Please, CD - no more photos of chimp/buckshot.
Questions for leftists: When you cooperate, compomise, and seek balance with the right, is the right reciprocating? If not, where do you draw the line and stop feeding the parasite?
Between this and the demise of S-CHIP and the loss of Habius I no longer recognize my country. I warned my congressman of this Fascist takeover more than half a decade ago. The Dems sat on their collective thumbs and let it happen. So be it. I just moved the last of my retirement assets offshore. I'll keep my spare change in my 'loonie' bin.
Perhaps the Greens (Kermit the Frog in `08) or more likely If At First We Don't Secede......
The Republicans and the Democrats are just two sides of the same Fascist coin. It's a lose - lose situation. Even the Generals say there is No Exit.
And now George the Schrub wants the world His way or he will start (and lose) World War Three. Can we all just hibernate through this Winter of Our Discontent, through this Bad Dream?
Senator Dodd is placing a Hold on the bill that can effectively keep it from being submitted to the Senate Floor for vote!
Nancy Pelosi first Woman Speaker of the House of Raperesentatives, heck of a job Nancy!
cactuspie alright !! Time to resurrect th e revolutionary spirit of the country. Anything less won't do.
By now we know who the enemies of peace and who the enemies of the people are. We should stop blubbering and start fighting them united under the banner of a PEOPLE'S MOVEMENT. All grassroots movements, left parties and organizations, while maintaining your organizational identities and independence, must join forces in a People's Movement with a program for: PEACE, IMPEACHMENT,DISARMAMENT, FREE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE & PUBLIC EDUCATION, RESTORATION OF CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, POLITICAL-ECONOMIC-SOCIAL-CULTURAL JUSTICE, SUSTAINABLE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PROTECTION OF PLANET EARTH.
I believe most of the people would go for programs such as the above, whereas the elites of the "two" capitalist parties would not touch them.
We can get the majority if the people see a united
front: A People's Movement. Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, and Evo Morales of Bolivia came to such a conclusion and beat the hell out of their "two" capitalist party system. We can do the same thing because we are the majority and can become the effective governing majority.
Time is precious. Let us get up and move UNTIL VICTORY - HASTA LA VICTORIA !
SUCKAH-FREE CONGRESS '08
I am voting for Nader even if he isnt on the ballot.
Thanks McDee for the quote from the great Huey P. Long.
I WILL NEVER, EVER VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT AGAIN. PELOSI, REID, HILLARY...ALL A BUNCH OF WHORES, PIMPS AND SELL-OUTS. WE PLACED YOU IN POWER WITH OUR 2006 VOTES AND YOU RAPED US. GOOD BY YOU CRUMB BUMS. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN IF THE REPUBLICANS STAY IN POWER FOREVER AND WAGE WARS EVERYHERE. AT LEAST THEY ARE TRUTHFUL WITH THEIR INTENTIONS.
AmeriKKKa right wing scum
I heard on AirAmerica that Chris Dodd has pulled the bill from consideration in the Senate. Go to his website chrisdodd.com/fisa to support this action.
Is it coming into focus yet? That your government (whether you support Republicans or Democrats) does not represent you...
Both parties represent the rich and the corporate interests, you are only a minor (very minor) consideration in the entire scheme of things. If you vote for anyone other than a Kucinich or a Paul in the primaries than you are just voting for the same old government; of the wealthy, by the wealthy, for the wealthy.
what america needs, is a TWO party system. this single party shit just ain't cutting it.
(tap, tap)
… Who's there?
NSA
Revolution Is Nigh!
Just another example of how our government is neither our representative nor our public servant. This country was founded on revolution, exploitation and genocide. Time to resurrect the first to stop the continuation of the later two. In March of 2008, will you help to pay for the war crimes and terrorism of the US government? Spread the word.
http://wartaxboycott.org/
I can sympathize with all this hyperbolic anger toward the Congressional Democrats. Most of us outraged by the lies and crimes by our so-called president and his party.
But it's a mistake to assume that everyone is outraged. Most of my neighbors are confused by political events, misinformed or just plain scared. The these voters are easy prey for the 900 lb Gorilla no one here wants to talk about - Right Wing Mass Media.
When you include the MSM in the picture, the Dems in Congress don't seem so powerful after all. Their meager, incremental steps seem more like accomplishment rather than shortcomings.
All it will take is one terrorist incident, "that could have been avoided", if the Democrats had not, "tied the hands of law enforcement"... and the Republicans will regain the majority in Congress.
We didn't get everything we wanted from the Domestic Spying Bill... neither did BushCo. That's politics, people. No one said it was going to be quick or easy.
Sorry for the double post. Webmaster--is there a problem with the edit function?
Nancy pulled the bill.
Ha!
'We have a Government so out of control'
No, you have a government that very nearly has all of the control they want.
The recent negative press about Blackwater's action in Iraq has been staged so that the orders to pull them out would come from other outside the Bush/Cheney cabal. They will be returning to the USA in time for the martial law doctrine, while any remaining National Guard and Reserves get called overseas to replace them.
You are all very nearly screwed.
What is the cheapest way to dispose of nuclear weapons?
-find someone to use them on.
What is the cheapest way to eliminate the expense of having the world's largest military when all you want is the doomsday stand off weapon and some private hired thugs?
-make them part of the 'collateral damage'
That's right. Blackwater will come home and your noble sons and daughters who serve in your real national military will be incinerated in a nuclear fireball in the middle east, by your own government.
Are you done talking and protesting yet?!
Spoilerjohn and others:
If you DON'T want to "help the dems" (to use Jim Glover's phrase) to collaborate with the Republicans to destroy democracy and the rule of law, and you realize that the corporate-imperialist duopoly is the root of ALL the major problems we face as a nation, AND you identify with the
Ten Key Values of the Green Party, i.e.,
GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
NON-VIOLENCE
DECENTRALIZATION (of wealth and power)
COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
go to: the website of the Green Party of the United States at http://www.gp.org/. You can find contact information for your state Green Party there as well. Then go to http://switch2green.org/ and join the movement. Peace to all.
Ferency,
The catastrophe that will wake up the masses is when they must decide between giving up watching "American Idol" or placing food on the table. Now if you will please excuse me, I have voice lessons.
Spoilerjohn and others:
If you DON'T want to "help the dems" (to use Jim Glover's phrase) to collaborate with the Republicans to destroy democracy and the rule of law, and you realize that the corporate-imperialist duopoly is the root of ALL the major problems we face as a nation, AND you identify with the
Ten Key Values of the Green Party, i.e.,
GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
NON-VIOLENCE
DECENTRALIZATION (of wealth and power)
COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
go to:the website of the Green Party of the United States at http://www.gp.org/. You can find contact information for your state Green Party there as well.
Peace to all.
Jim Glover (3:15 pm) writes, "...If we can agree that 300 or so votes here in Florida was the final straw in 2000...can we agree that Nader didn't Help the Dems?"
- It wasn't really a matter of the few hundred votes (the final tally was 500+). The R's were determined to steal the election, & the D's were NOT determined to stop them. The R's would have done whatever was necessary to prevail -- even if the official final tally of votes had favored Gore.
A very important sub-plot in the Florida 2000 story (one that's been deliberately "forgotten" in MSM accounts) was that the R's were prepared to have the Florida legislature, which they controlled, use its power to select its own delegates. (You might remember that Scalia said that voters don't really have a Constitutional right to elect the president.) Voters are really choosing slates of electors; and it's the electors that pick the president. However, even though it's always been the case that the electors follow the given state's popular vote, there's no law saying they MUST do so -- and the R's were prepared to have the Florida legislature choose its own slate of electors.
Here's an article written during the Florida recount, summarizes the basic situation: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/dec2000/elec-d07.shtml
Green Party USA: www.gp.org/
We have a Government so out of control, so paranoid, they are rivaling their worst counterparts in the 20th Century. Look, they are literally pointing machine guns at you, why wouldn't Big Brother avail himself of more information? After all, the war on terror is going great, let's not slow down the benevolent progress of Oceania. Citizen, surrender, supreme victory over Al Qaeda is close at hand.
If you're a Kucinich supporter I urge you to go to http://democracyforamerica.com/pulsepoll and vote for DFA to support Kucinich for president. Sorry for the cross posting.