I know this is a bit late, but...

For those of us who live on the other side of the Atlantic, and will not be anywhere near Ft. Huachuca on November 16 and 17th, is anybody gathering signatures asking to stop teaching, and practicing, of torture?

It is set up to serve government policy, for good or for evil.

I believe that is an understatment!

Judges typically do not like to rule on issues with broad implications. They always narrow the issues as much as possible. In the Fort Huachaca case, it was narrowed to a simple matter of trespass. The priests could have been ticketed for civil trespass (similar to a parking violation), but instead, they were charged with criminal trespass. Attempting to peacefully deliver a letter to the commanding general doesn't seem like a criminal act. And that's not what they were tried for. From the point of view of a judge who is obsessed with narrowing the issue, the only question at bar was, "Did the priests step onto federal property without authorization?" It appears that they did.

On the other hand, would they have been arrested if they had entered the base with the intent of presenting the general with an award from Blackwater USA for effective teaching of terrorism and torture techniques under the guise of "exceptional performance"? Probably not.

That, then, goes to intent. If your intent is to support the Unitary Executive, you get attaboys. If your intent is to oppose him, you go to jail. But if the outcome of the case is based on intent, then it is no longer the simple matter of criminal trespass that the judge insisted on.

If there was demonstrable intent (backed by evidence) to destroy government property or to commit bodily harm, then the action is, and should be, subject to penalties. On the other hand, if the intent was to peacefully deliver a message without destroying or causing harm, then what is the problem?

In dealing with our convoluted court system, it is important to realize that the court system is not fundamentally structured to serve the cause of justice. It is set up to serve government policy, for good or for evil.

It was the government and the banks then and it is the government (IRS) and Federal Reserve NOW!
http://www.freedomtofascism.com/

-----------------------------------------------
The Praying Indians fell victim to slaughter and violence from both the Indians that fought alongside Philip and the English.

http://www.blackstonedaily.com/Journeys/cm-nipmuc.htm

This people in this country needs to take their power back!

In 1675 the government disbanded all praying towns and confined the Indians to the old villages and reservations, and a government appointed guardian was chosen. Large numbers of Christian Indians were restricted to Deer Isle in Boston Harbor and most of them died of starvation, disease and neglect. By the end of King Philip's War, the number of Nipmuc's in the area had dwindled to 4,000 and by 1680 almost all traces of their heritage disappeared. The war took a bloody toll on both English and Nipmuc, but the natives had no opportunity to re-build their lives.

The Massachusetts Bay Colony sanctioned only two Indian homelands in Worcester County, Hassanamesitt in Grafton, and Chaubungungamaug in Dudley, which is now Webster. (Hassanamesitt was a reservation in name only; no one had yet to locate there). The court had forbidden the Nipmucs from returning to the Nipet lands so James Dudley and William Stoughton were sent to investigate the Nipet homeland and settle who had proper title to the region. The Nipmucs asserted that Woampus, who sold the homeland to the English, was not a rightful sachem and had no authority to sell the lands. For twenty pounds and a coat, the General Court allowed the Nipmucs to sell 1,000 square miles of Nipet territory (most of central Worcester County) with five miles square retained for their reservation. For their efforts in securing the lands, Stoughton and Dudley get 1,000 acres of prime Nipet land apiece and by 1681 the Nipmucs are a virtually landless people. In 1698 Nipmucs began to settle the eight square miles of Hassanamesitt and establish a thriving reservation, but in 1704 the government, buckling under pressure from settlers, takes land to establish the townships of Sutton and Millbury. In 1728, the trustees again yield to pressure and sell 7,500-acres of Hassanamesitt land with the proceeds of the sale to be put in an account in a Boston bank. The money was to be used for the care and needs of the Nipmucs but during the 1800s, the money was embezzled and never returned. Under the guardianship of the government, whose job was to protect and ensure the welfare of the natives, the Grafton reservation was reduced to four acres and in 1869 the five miles square Dudley reservation was reduced to 26 acres. The Grafton four acres have the honor of never being held by the white settler, they have always been Nipmuc homeland. After years of wayward guardianship, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in 1869 finally granted citizenship to the Nipmucs.
http://www.blackstonedaily.com/Journeys/cm-nipmuc.htm

cactuspie, that is exactly where it is at. I am with you whole heartedly!

-----------------------------------------------

-1675 – Winter internment on Deer Island (now part of Boston Harbor Islands) led to hundreds of Nipmuc deaths resulting from starvation and exposure

-1728 – Hassanamesit Plantation (present-day Grafton) is established through the division and sale of 7500 acres into allotments for both English settlers and existing Indian families.

-1746 – Guardians are assigned to "oversee" Nipmuc Reservations at Hassanamesit and Dudley. Through the guardianship system, which lasted into the 1800's, much Nipmuc land is sold and money belonging to the Indians is "lost" by the guardians.

Telling My Friends!

(From Senator Dodd's Site)

The Military Commissions Act. Warrantless wiretapping. Shredding of Habeas Corpus. Torture. Extraordinary Rendition. Secret Prisons.

No more.

Senator Dodd has decided to place a "hold" on the latest FISA bill that would have included retroactive immunity telecommunications companies that enabled the President's assault on the Constitution by providing personal information on their customers without judicial authorization.

Not now. Not again. And when he is elected President, Restoring the Constitution is what he will do in his FIRST HOUR in the Oval Office.

Please indicate your support for Senator Dodd's hold by signing on and consider sharing your thoughts in the comment section.

http://www.chrisdodd.com/fisa

Valsmith writes (October 18th, 2007 11:21 am):

"The courts refuse to allow such arguments in defense because generally the actions which they are used to justify are at best only tangentially related to the alleged illegalities."

I hold that the courts deny "such arguments" because they are too much of a threat to the government as a whole, and the court system in particular.

Nor is there anything "tangential" here in this particular case, except perhaps for those who are physically, emotionally, intellectually, or spiritually distanced from the horrors being addressed. And Fort Huachuca and its commander are directly involved in the institution of torture, so it's appropriate that men and women go there to deliver complaint or offer solutions (just as it's appropriate to protest at the School of the Americas, where torture is also taught). (By the way, some decades ago I was in the Army Security Agency, and know a few things about what the agency's involved in.)

"Of course, we all know that their REAL purpose was to be arrested and convicted, to drum up publicity for their cause. At which they have apparently succeeded. But even arguing against illegal government actions doesn't give you license to use any property you desire as a pulpit."

The language here seems to betray Valsmith's attitude, which seems prejudicial: "drum up publicity," "license," "pulpit". . . . And of course he/she, not being omniscient, can't know the intent of the two priests beyond what the two have stated. As a practitioner of nonviolent civil disobedience myself, twice arrested in the last year, I know that my intent is never to be arrested, but rather to risk arrest. There's a difference. Many times I've risked arrest and not been arrested--fine by me as long as I felt my actions were in some way effective or necessary. Also, I wonder what Valsmith thinks of Thoreau, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr., Thich Nhat Hanh and others who have helped establish nonviolent civil disobedience as paths toward stopping injustice. I see little if any difference between what Frs. Vitale and Kelly did and what these heroes have stood for.

"Tenizing, I can only interpret your post to mean that when the government does anything wrong, any illegal act which does not cause physical damage is acceptable. But the legal priniciples of justification only apply to neccessary acts, and since those priests had a multitude of ways to voice their opinion, it is no justification to say they had to trespass to get their voices heard. Illegal acts cannot be justified simply because the actor needed people to pay attention to him, no matter how good his motives or his cause."

This is inaccurate. The necessity defense requires that the defendant have exhausted hes or her legal attempts to address the issue--vby oting, phone calls, faxes, letters, emails, lawful visits to representatives (or other personages, institutions), etc. If these have no effect in stopping or mitigating the illegal actions that are being protested, then a lesser illegality of nonviolent civil disobedience can be undertaken and defended in court.

The Necessity Defense is occasionally allowed, by the way, but often removed on appeal by prosecutors. I don't know what measures the good fathers have taken till now to present their views on torture (nor does Valsmith), but I know that my own discipline includes all the measures listed above and more--letters, emails, voting, etc.

I pray that Fr. Vitale and Fr. Kelly inspire hundreds and thousands more of us to follow in their footsteps until the illegal occupation of Irak ends and justice is rendered.

It would be good to see Valsmith join us.

Be it so!

WOW! I just posted a comment for another article (http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/18/4653/) but it fits perfectly here too. So I repeat:

Revolution Is Nigh!

Just another example of how our government is neither our representative nor our public servant. This country was founded on revolution, exploitation and genocide. Time to resurrect the first to stop the continuation of the later two. In March of 2008, will you help to pay for the war crimes and terrorism of the US government? Spread the word.

http://wartaxboycott.org/

alsmith October 18th, 2007 1:16 pm

"Also, the priests were dishonest. They were there to get arrested and create awareness. To be martyred, if you will. The letter was only a pretense. However noble their cause, they trespassed, intending to be arrested, didn't obe orders to leave, and then fell to their knees to pray (on another's property) to complete the illusion of innocence when they were arrested. It's the anger you feel at the dishonesty of a man who murders his father and mother and then pleads for mercy because he is an orphan."

You are obviously right that they risked arrest and were arrested as part of this act of civil disobedience. To call them dishonest is a bit absurd. To equate it with someone who commits murder is some pretty heavy hyperbole.

To me, since civil disobedience is so much a valid part of how we engage as citizens, going back to our founding revolutionaries, and certainly including the brave acts used by civil rights leaders, we should recognize it in the court. Since most often civil disobedience has been used to call attention to serious problems, I think the courts should allow testimony about the motivation for an act of civil disobedience. Just because they don't doesn't make it right.

We have learned a lot from those who have had the courage to use civil disobedience to raise our consciousness and to activate our consciences to change the abuse of power or to change our laws to lead us to become a moral people.

So they weren't just expressing an opinion. They were carrying on a tradition of brave witness in the presence of an evil that can't be exposed by letter writing or any other expression that can be easily kept from the public's eye. It's time the court allow testimony that can identify the "offense" supposedly committed as one of civil disobedience, filling a need to call the nation's attention to an evil that violates our nation's definition of what is good or that requires us to change our laws to move us back to the ideals that motivated all of us through history to want this nation to be a beacon of justice and hope for the world.

And I think torture certainly is an issue that requires the kind of witness they have given. God has blessed us through them.

So, to all who put down Nader and put down Priests, your continuing support for the undemocratic system in the u$a is incomprehensible, instead of opening debate and allowing everyone to participate and actually trying to work towards real change and democracy, you end up becoming Stalin.
To those who are friends please check out www.tortureontrial.org
and also http://southwestwitness.org/?page_id=3
I hope to see you all at the SOA or at Ft Huachuca!

one of the great mistakes of the left was to abolish the draft. we should have insisted on a truly universal draft. there is a reason why the founders insisted on a citizen army.

Coyotita:
"If they hadn't used Huachuca as the backdrop for their action in trying to stop the torture, I for one, would not have known what the business of Huachuca in Arizona is."

Precisely what they intended. And utterly irrelevant to whether they were legally justified in doing so. Despite the fact that you WOULDN'T have known, you COULD have known- through research, by them running an ad campaign, writing a book, etc. However, all of those routes are more difficult or costly. They reach more people by tresspassing and being arrested, and getting in the papers for it.

The law allows you to break it when it is immediately necessary to do so to prevent another, more serious offense. But there will be no immediate results on torture from either their purported intent of delivering a letter, or their real intent of spreading the word. And since both goals could be accomplished legally, their arguments as to whether or not what is taught at the fort isd legal is irrelevant.

If they came across a man being tortured, and rescued him, then the legality of that torture would be relavent as a defense against attacking the officer who held the victim. There was an immediate danger, and an immediate result of their actions. The only question remaining is whether the action they stopped was legal or not. But here, there was no immediate danger (that there actions would have stopped, at any rate.) COmpare it to a citizen who observes a murder, and then shoots the criminal in the head as he flees, wqhen there is no further immediate danger. It may stop future crimes, but would not stop any crime in progress.

As for my "interest in defending torture", I haven't. I referred to it as a crime, you'll recall. I'll do so again.

My interest is in clear, HONEST argument Arguments on the legality of torture have no place at their trial, given that their stated intent would not have prevented it, and their attorneys knew it. Having a noble goal does not excuse law breaking except in rare occasions. The ends do not justify the means. However, far too many people in this forum let what they wanted (an end to torture) get in the way of their thinking. They were willing to allow a breach of the rules we've created to live by in order to get what they want. NOT acceptable.

Also, the priests were dishonest. They were there to get arrested and create awareness. To be martyred, if you will. The letter was only a pretense. However noble their cause, they trespassed, intending to be arrested, didn't obe orders to leave, and then fell to their knees to pray (on another's property) to complete the illusion of innocence when they were arrested. It's the anger you feel at the dishonesty of a man who murders his father and mother and then pleads for mercy because he is an orphan.

Good cause. But dishonest reasoning.

Thank you Ralph Nader and Ralph Nader supporters. Your non-votes for Al Gore in 1999 made it possible for me to fool the American people that I somehow won a narrow election. Your wasted votes in Florida have made torture possible in the US of A.

Do not fear. This is the age of knowing. Some of these truths are hard to accept for some people but it is better than living chained in a cave watching shadows.

Valsmith:"Of course, we all know that their REAL purpose was to be arrested and convicted, to drum up publicity for their cause. At which they have apparently succeeded. But even arguing against illegal government actions doesn't give you license to use any property you desire as a pulpit."

Coyotita: If they hadn't used Huachuca as the backdrop for their action in trying to stop the torture, I for one, would not have known what the business of Huachuca in Arizona is. I am grateful to them for exposing it -- something that couldn't have occurred if they had merely placed a stamp on a letter.
And I ask you, what is your self interest in defending torture and the people who order it?

I remember when the republicans were parading around eveywhere bragging about torture. They couldn't get enough of it.
Now that their president has pulled the rug out from under them-yet again-by denying the fact that we have tortured, and that we do torture; all I hear from the GOP regarding torture, is the sounds of crickets chirping. Pathetic.

Huachuca; pronounced wa-chu-ca.

You would never guess what goes on there by driving through it.

During World War II, a special US Army intelligence unit made up of Japanese-Americans, the Military Intelligence Service (MIS), conducted interrogations and other intel tasks.

They used persuasion, empathy, communication and treated prisoners of war decently and with respect, according to reports.

And, they had good results during the war in the Pacific, and later in the occupation of Japan.

More on this in ...

"Eastwood, Spielberg have one more angle to cover in Iwo Jima films"

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=21191

- - -

"Secret WWII Army Intelligence Unit Has Lessons for Us Now"

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=3312

Do Something! October 27th in a major city near you. Vets for Peace and United for Peace and Justice mobilization.

Would be nice to see the Church finally join secular humanists in calling for respect of civil liberties and basic human dignity, even to those who -- we think -- may not deserve it. That makes us better than them.

Tenizing wrote, "The courts at all levels routinely refuse defense arguments using illegality of the war in Iraq, violations of international law and other similar, well-founded, grounds for nonviolent civil disobedience."

The courts refuse to allow such arguments in defense because generally the actions which they are used to justify are at best only tangentially related to the alleged illegalities. The priests purpose was to stop torture, an illegal act. However, their (stated) immediate intent was to deliver a letter to the commandant. This could have been accomplished with a letter, at the cost of a stamp, as bildad's post above shows. Since there was a legal way to accomplish their stated purpose, the court was probably unimpressed with their justification that illegal torture made their trespass to deliver the letter a necessity.

Of course, we all know that their REAL purpose was to be arrested and convicted, to drum up publicity for their cause. At which they have apparently succeeded. But even arguing against illegal government actions doesn't give you license to use any property you desire as a pulpit.

Tenizing, I can only interpret your post to mean that when the government does anything wrong, any illegal act which does not cause physical damage is acceptable. But the legal priniciples of justification only apply to neccessary acts, and since those priests had a multitude of ways to voice their opinion, it is no justification to say they had to trespass to get their voices heard. Illegal acts cannot be justified simply because the actor needed people to pay attention to him, no matter how good his motives or his cause.

BILL BRG - "Intelligence" is not really desired by this administration. Why else would we have a leader whose lack of intelligence is so obvious? What's really valued is the sadistic power to punish and the self-talk that informs the powerful that he is on a mission from God. Together, they overwhelm rationality and compassion and justice.

The intelligence-gathering done in WWII was so effective because it relied not upon brutality, but sharpness of intellect. No wonder there is so much brutality in Iraq and Gitmo, etc. Brutality begets brutality.

No wonder that there's such a marked difference in what our U.S prisons produce: check out the recidivism rates from those prisons where rehabiltation is the focus and the sick ones that are predicated upon punishment. We're doing it to ourselves, folks.

I am gladdened to see the Catholics writing about what the Catholics are doing for peace and justice. We don't hear enough about it to strengthen the men and women who call themselves the people of faith to act on that faith. I believe that homilies and sermons are today, void of examples taking place around us of faith in action.
Thank you Mr. Quigley for this article, and I know that the two priests are not alone in their cells, that they walk with Jesus, and that God is pleased.
Would that today, at least one person reading this out there would take up the cross and stand up for those victims of this administration who are strewn all over the place, from those working for the government and are afraid to speak up about unlawful activities taking place under their noses, to the vets that come home and suffer with their families, from what they have done and have seen in Iraq. And it goes without saying the victims of war in the Middle East, and the many held in Guantanamo.
How can two men, Bush and Cheney, cause so much misery and destruction?
When the reporters at the press conference asked some pointed questions, and tried to pin Bush down, you could see Bush's true colors, as the newsmen backed down. Evil is hard to confront, but not impossible.
God bless those two priests. Where are the Nuns? Where are the Bishops? Where is the Pope?

Bush couldn't answer the reporter's question when asked what torture meant to him.

He doesn't know, but he condones it. What a guy!

I see that there are immense problems with the priorities of authority in this country. I cannot understand why all of this phony pandering to the dangerous status quo has not already eroded by people such as judges who should be intelligent, considering the positions they occupy.

Thinking about this got me to thinking about the 2000 election where there were a number of people who were excluded voting rights because they bore names similar to convicted felons. I truly believe that prisoners and convicted felons should have just as much a right to vote as anyone else in the country. They may have wronged society, but at the same time, they may also be political prisoners or victims of a policy that forces them into hellish living conditions that force their hands in order to survive.

Think about a nation where fascism becomes so wide spread that a good percentage of the population resisting the tyranny would be jailed. It should then be imperative while there still is some semblance to democracy, to give them the rights to vote in order to be able to affect the kind of government which persecutes them.

If they had had the rights to vote in 2000, Al Gore would have been president today, and the US would be leading the new decentralized, egalitarian individualist, environmentally, democratically and socially friendly revolution which is now ripe and ready to happen.

One last thing, demand a paper trail for our votes before it is too late. Don't let them fool you.

SHEEHAN is a Shoo-in for President if she wants it!!!

(Though there will be that pesky minority of loud mouths who will sling truckloads of mud, we will have to fight them tooth and nail. This is still our country and in the end she is the right answer to Bush's 8 years of "You are not the people.")

And even in prison for having trespassed and disobeying an order to stop (praying), these two true men of faith will do much good in prison.

I don't know what a federal prison is like but I do know the other. Their fellow inmates will be given a chance to talk with these two men and learn. Believe me, in jail, many prisoners turn to religion for solace. For a very few, it continues and they never commit a crime again. For the vast majority, once back on the outside, they will return to what they know best.

But my point is that they will be able to do an incredible amount of good during their stay in prison. Unless the gaurds keep them on lock down, they will be able to talk to and listen to so many men who need guidance. My guess is the biggest thing that they have to fear would be the prison guards. If they're assholes, like the majority of prisons guards are, they will be the only ones to give these two men a hard time on the inside. The prisoners will treat them with respect. You can count on that. Unless, again, the guards get involved directly or indirectly (by using other inmates). Hopefully the prison guards treat them right.

any body see Frontline last nite???? justice in america is a very 'fluid' concept... with those at the reins deferring to our lower nature of fear, based upon the 'new' religion of 'Patriatism'.

The soldiers made a crown of thorns, and put it on the head of Jesus, and it hurt, and He bled. And He was whipped. And mocked. And then the torturers forced Him to carry His heavy death instrument a mile, and Jesus fell three times before the occupiers enlisted another man to carry Jesus's cross. And then the soldiers drove nails through Jesus's hands and His feet, and placed Him high above the crowd in a public torture ritual, in the company of two thieves. We know that the Romans deliberately designed the cross so that no one would die quickly, but would be displayed in pain for many hours until death. And they nailed what was to them a falsehood above His head which read "King of the Jews". And the soldiers gambled for Jesus's clothes.

Torture is an abomination of what we hold sacred.

The words of Fr. Kelly are like an arrow, aren't they? "We will keep trying to stop the teaching and practice of torture whether we are sent to jail or out. We have done our part for now. Now it is up to every woman and man of conscience to do their part to stop the injustice of torture."

I just got out of prison in June having served two months for crossing over the line at Fort Benning last year. And you know something...I have this dream...I dream that all 22,000 or so who show up at the gates of Fort Benning and WHINSEC (former SOA) all of us climb the fence or crawl through or just pick a point with no fence and walk over....kneel down and pray. What can they do, arrest all of us???? I have this dream... that this sentence of Fr. Kelly's pricks our consciences and all the excuses of why we can't act fall away...That somehow, some way these women and men of conscience take back our country from the "Corporate Interests" that make up our policies of torture and "National Secruity."

I just read in the NY Times today that the UN proposed a resolution that would abolish life without the possiblity of parole sentencing for young teens and children...the measure was voted upon and the results were 185 to 1...the lone dissentor...you guessed it...USA! Having spent my small time in Federal prison, I know the "corporate interests" that fuel the Prison Industrial Complex. Just as it is "Corporate Interests and National Security" that fuel the training of Latin American soldiers and police in the ways of torture and extermination...

Yes they killed MLK and Jesus and Ghandi...but can they kill all women and men of conscience?!?

the federal court in Tucson = Bush's little Eichmanns???

Notice how nonviolent peace activists and anyone who wants to help the oppressed are either imprisoned or assassinated by the warmongering right-wing U.S. Nazi fascists: John Lennon and Martin Luther King Jr are two examples.

John Lennon, like MLK, was under surveillance by the CIA and FBI. They followed him around and tapped his phone under President Nixon's orders -- because he advocated peace.

Thank you, Fathers Vitale and Kelly. An international court needs to rule on torture or else all the treaties and laws are toothless.

Father Vitale, in trying to bring forth torture evidence, reminds us that the court was in fact, an accessory to torture after the fact by denying its admission.

For the court to deny admission of torture eveidence,Fort Huachuca, its connection to torture manuals and training is much like a court denying the proscecution the right to admit into evidence prior crminal acts of the defendant.

Some recent statements by WWII interrogators who were dealing with higher level prisoners brings some reality to the false arguements used to justify torture under the Bush Administration.

Some remarks on interrogation by people who "never compromised their humanity". They included people who lost family members to the Nazis.

(Seen in several sources) For six decades, they held their silence.

The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."…

---------------------------------------------
From Grant Perry, Huffington Post-

In 1944, Sergeant Rudy Michaels got a lesson about torture. The lesson was simple and straightforward: The U.S. doesn't torture. It's against the rules and it doesn't work, period. Michaels' instructors weren't just regurgitating a sentence or two from an Army manual. They were training an elite group of soldiers on how to get useful information from Nazis. Michaels had a personal stake in squeezing information from captured Germans. A Jew, he grew up in Leipzig, Germany and escaped to America in 1938. His family made it to England later that year. But there were friends and relatives left behind.

After completing his interrogation training at Camp Ritchie, Maryland, Michaels went back to Europe, landing on Normandy beach with the U.S. 5th Armored Division. Soon he was on German soil, interrogating Nazi POWs.

Now 92, Rudy Michaels can't believe what he's hearing in his adopted country more than 60 years after the war. Michaels listened to George Tenet on 60 Minutes in April as he tried to justify "enhanced interrogation." And he heard only one of 10 Republican presidential candidates call it by its real name -- torture -- in their debate on May 15th. Michaels has heard enough.

Each time, I reacted to the hypocrisy and also to the idea that torture is justified because these are such tough guys. In my opinion, the tougher they are, the less likely you are to get anything of value out of them by using force... The first time I saw one of the Gitmo guys in an orange suit in shackles, I thought what the hell are these people doing? They're not going to get anything useful out them.

To Michaels and the other "Ritchie Boys," as they came to be known, it was made "absolutely crystal clear that we weren't supposed to touch prisoners." It proved to be good advice. One of Michaels' closest friends, fellow Ritchie Boy Morris Parloff, was awarded a Bronze Star for the report he produced on interrogations conducted in Aachen, the first large German city to fall to the Americans. Parloff, now 88, later became a prominent psychologist and advisor to the U.S. Army on group psychology. He says the Aachen report holds up today.

The practicality of how we got information was very sound... The establishment of rapport was the main point... if they thought you were interested in their experiences, they were more likely to talk. If they thought you were just trying to get information, they wouldn't give you anything. The first thing we learned about interrogation was that you have to make it clear that you already have a lot of information.

The Ritchie Boys scared their interrogation subjects with psychology, not physicality. Virtually all of the Ritchie Boys were Jewish, and that turned out to provide a psychological advantage, says Parloff.

It was always an intellectual game... They are scared shitless -- now they're facing a Jew. I depended on them recognizing me that way -- I never told them directly -- but by very subtle means.

Rudy Michaels says the Ritchie Boys often employed another psychological ploy.

We used to say in German [to one of the other U.S. soldiers], 'Son, do we still need a few people to send to Russeland - Russia?' They would answer, 'Yes, we still do.' By that time, the prisoner's face was ashen. We discovered that early on.

Of course, the Americans didn't actually send the German prisoners to Russia. "Extraordinary rendition" had to await the arrival of George Bush and Dick Cheney, as did American disregard of the Geneva Conventions. The Ritchie Boys were taught, says Michaels, that the "Geneva Conventions were honored and part of the deal... The Germans certainly were not abiding by the Geneva Conventions. We didn't say 'they're not doing it so we don't have to.'"

After the war, Rudy Michaels spent decades as a lawyer, judge and law professor. But when he hears about the U.S. engaging in torture, the question of its legality doesn't always preoccupy him: "I keep coming back to whether or not it's legal or not - but it's simply wrong."

The Ritchie Boys were the subject of a 2004 documentary by German filmmaker Christian Bauer.

Compare this to Gitmo- A former trainee with Osama Bin Laden's camps went in to the prisons at Guantanamo and said 90% of the prisoners were people in the wrong place at the wrong time or very low level combatants with limited knowledge.

That some of those "90%" were tortured, all held well after their lack of intelligence usefulness was determined shows that rather than being interested in intelligence (duh1- couldn't help that pun or myself), Bush, Cheney,Rumsfeld, Rice and their fellow criminals wanted to punish the Iraqi people en masse.

The Bremer edicts included de facto extralegal status for the mercenaries of Blackwater and fellow soldier fo fortune companies. The commission of crimes with impunity. That Erik Prince (of darkness) said, " What was I supposed to do? Flog them?..." He's a lying bastard who should be extradited along with Bush etc. for international criminal hearings. With or without them there.

The other anti-civilian attacks of all sorts by US and US supported allies including the mercenaries are war crimes and as they are international crimes are not pardonable. Attacks on journalists, kidnapping of doctors and other medical personnel as happened in Fallujah are also crimes. Did I mention the use of white phosphorus and cluster bombs?

Thank you once again, Fathers Vitale (Louie) and Kelly. Keep the faith in these difficult times.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of what the US has become, there are more sorprises of civil rights errosion. Do not give any money to any politician running for president,it is a waste all around, they are the reason we are where we are now. Kucinich-Ravel may offer a chance. just in case do not build the wall in the borders, keep the canadian border open . I do not know if to lugh at this mess or let it kill me.

You can write the Commanding General to voice your indignation at this outrage:

ATTN ATZS CG
US ARMY INTELLIGENCE CENTER
1903 HATFIELD ST
FORT HUACHUCA AZ 85613-7000

Or the

Directorate of Information Management:
ATTN IMWE HUA IM
US ARMY GARRISON
2133 CUSHING ST STE 1606
FORT HUACHUCA, AZ 85613-7008

Or E-mail:
HUAC.webmaster@conus.army.mil

Hmmm... HUAC ... that sure sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Or the Garrison Commander:

ATTN IMWE HUA ZA
US ARMY GARRISON
2837 BOYD AVE
FORT HUACHUCA AZ 85613-7001

Would anyone like to see Bush and Cheney questioned by these trained interrogation thugs?

We could have public water boarding of these two homicidal maniacs until they reveal the truth.

Now then Mr. President and Mr. Vice President did you intentionally lie to the American people to justify the invasion of a sovereign nation?

Oh so you refuse to answer?

Lets try another approach, strip them naked and get the dogs out, I want the same specially trained goons who intimidated the prisoners at Abu Ghraib to interrogate these two honorable clowns until we find out the truth.

Of course to sadistic brain dead humans like our President and his VP it is quite easy for them to say we do not torture, simply change the definition of the word so it encompasses the barbaric way we treat prisoners and that way they can legitimately say we do not torture.

Help, I am stuck in a country that is quickly destroying itself and there is nowhere to go since the entire world now hates Americans.

We have a "president" who is not President, a little man who does not listen, will not listen, does not care that he stole his office, does not care that he is shredding the Constitution, does not blanch at condoning torture while transparently denying that he does -- what CAN we do? I look at the list of contributors to this and other Web sites, the people who are attempting to spearhead change, and I see prominent names, many of them -- and yet there seems to be nothing we can do. Priests are arrested for acting like real Christians, and they go to jail, while fake Christians in their Megachurhes in Alabama cheer on the torturers. Bush and Cheney commit treason by outing a CIA agent, and yet they pay no price.

My question, then, is how do we make them pay the price? How do we make them feel the pain of consequences? Do not be deluded: the sovereign government of the United States of America was overthrown by election fraud and a judicial coup in 2000; since then the junta that performed the coup have been consolidating their power. What are we going to do? What does love of our country and of our Constitution demand that we do?

I don't have the answers. I'd like to say, "Let us gather in the millions around the White House until the criminals inside are brought out and delivered to jail cells!" But in all honesty, can I afford the time away from work? In the 60s we were propelled by students, students who had the will and the freedom to get out and get right in the faces of the bastards. Today's students would rather listen to rap music and fiddle with Ipods and wear silly clothing. Maybe we have the government we deserve.

"The priests were arrested while KNEELING IN PRAYER halfway up the driveway to Fort Huachuca in November 2006. Both priests were charged with trespass on a military base and resisting orders of an officer to stop."

Resisting Orders to stop what? Stop Praying?

When George W Bush is finally placed on trial for Crimes Against Humanity, (and rest assured that he will be) I will pay anything for a front row seat.

This judge should be put somewhere he can not harm anyone else. God damn this country. Of course the whole concept of god is only slightly more ridiculous than having gwb as leader of the so-called free world.
Sorry I have to vent every day to keep reality from driving me insane. Unfortunately, we live in a world crawling with the insane.

Justice is a game in the USA. The most corrupt people have the most power & prestige.

Our rotten to the core establishment has in the past made more of an effort to conceal it's disdain for international law.

So now more people see that the Goliath USA has no conscience. Who could be surprised?

=========================================================
"I swear by the God of my parents, I swear by my nation,
I swear by my honor that I will not allow my soul to rest,
nor my arm to relax until I have broken the chains that
oppress my people through the will of the powerful.
Free elections, free land and free men,
horror to the oligarchy."

================

Oath used by Hugo Chavez (when he was 28) and some of his revolutionary friends.
(Page 80, !HUGO! by Bart Jones)...

http://one.org/

The very worst representatives of the USA have been torturing people since the barbaric genocide of Native Americans. They habitually cloak their dark deeds in cheery words that paint a picture that is the opposite of reality.

Our top leaders like Bush & Cheney have "understandings" with the most powerful ones who work from behind the scenes. If people like Bush were to stray too far from what his bosses want, he'd probably get the same thing that JFK got.

-----------------------

"I will never apologize for the United States of America. I don't care what the facts are."

George H. W. Bush, then U.S. vice president, referring to an American ship that shot down an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians...

==========

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com

-------------------------------------

"The time for war has past.
Man must change or die.
There is no other course."
The World Teacher

Can anyone tell me the name of the USDCt judge in Tucson who conducted this case and imposed sentence?

Madrid,

The peace actions in Palestine/Israel and in the US are from a few non-political groups. They are socially engaged in prayer and vigils at places like the Bangor Nuclear Base, School of the Americas, Nevada Test Site and many other locations. Rarely reported in newspapers or any mainstream media. I would hope that someday the populations of Israel and the world would realize peace. These are heart-felt feelings 'words' do not even come close to expressing the fact of a peace that is possible.

These two men are conscience-committed to do something aboout the practice of torture; and as Father Kelly says, "We have done our part, now it is up to every woman and man of conscience to do their part to stop the injustice of torture." I ask muself, what am I committing to? I pray for the strength and the grace to DO SOMETHING!

Gilberto,

Nice sentiments there, but give us some evidence that Jewish citizens of Israel want a just peace with Muslim Palestinians. I have been following that conflict for 12 years now and I think I am right when I conclude that Israelis think of "talking peace" as a good p.r. move. When it comes to actions though, it is "expand the settlements, no holds bar."

Don't link to some Israeli peace group either-- I know they exist, but they are mainly ignored by the general population. I want to see statistics that shows the Israeli population really wants peace. In reality, the only western country's citizens that really want war with Iran are Israel's citizens by a solid majority (70%).

The courts at all levels routinely refuse defense arguments using illegality of the war in Iraq, violations of international law and other similar, well-founded, grounds for nonviolent civil disobedience. Justice here is in the hands of the lawbreakers, the torturers and warmongers, the corporatists; it is seldom if ever "blind" or on the side of the righteous in these kinds of cases. The legal system is basically another arm of tyranny by the state, in collusion with megacorporations, rightwing ideologues, rogue law enforcers, mercenaries, and their ilk. As such, it seems reasonable for genuine defenders of freedom to ignore the legal system whenever necessary, and imho by any means short of violence against property or people.

Fr. Steve and Fr. Louis have made a strong commitment to serve the suffering and be peacemakers from the teachings of Christ. Buddhist in Burma and Buddhist in America walk and drum for peace. Jews in Israel pray for peace with Muslims and here too. Their compass is the heart of compassion for our humanity and relieving the suffering of our small planet. These are not a few humans but many on this planet who know that peace is Possible. Please witness and act in your own way for peace. Governments, politics and monetary systems have failed us all.

"We have done our part for now. Now it is up to every woman and man of conscience to do their part to stop the injustice of torture."

That about says it all, doesn't it? It really is up to us. You and me.

Good for these two priests! We should all take the courage of our convictions this far, and maybe we will pretty soon. Trespassing is a nothing conviction, particularly under these circumstances. Will the Pope support them?

The US does NOT torture. They use "enhanced interrogation techniques". Just ask Pres. Bush ("We don't do torture.") Oh, and by the way, the only country currently using chemical weapons and other weapons of mass destruction is, you guessed it, the good ol' US of A.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1134673789364675735&q=hidden+massacre

With apologies to Dostoevsky for borrowing from his Grand Inquisitor, if Christ returned to America the result would be the same: "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar."