Oh boy, another front for Bush's friends to steal a whole lot of our money from. And another war for the spineless Democrats to go along with.

Yipppeee!

"From sea to shining sea, where is peace for you and me?"

BushCo in their abject stupidity and arrogance have really messed up that part of the world so tragically.

Interesting. The occupying force (Bush and his base supporters) are required to protect the occupied from all threats, even the PKK. Perhaps one more poke in the eye with the 'genocide' stick will push the Turks over the border. Won't our sons and daughters have fun - they can attack in any direction now. Thanks George!

If this NeoCatastrophy works as planned just think how interesting life will become when we poke China in the eye with the 'Tibet' stick. I hope we all remember where we put our old bomb shelters. Remember the old drill? Stop, Drop and Kiss your sweet ass goodby!

time is running out for Bushco.

The oligarchy just follows the money with their amoral banks and corporations leading the charge. We kick and scream righteously outraged, but continue to do business with, buy things from and own stock in them.

The Turks really feel badly about their past history with the Armenian genocide and want to enter Iraq as humanitarians. Show the world that they can do a better job at bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people than Bush.

Several questions come to mind.

1. Why are the Dems so insistent on wasting time, energy and political acuity on the Turkish genocide legislation when other matters such as defunding the Iraq misadventure are pending?

2. Do you think that there is an unspoken accusation of hypocrisy (sp?)from other countries who wonder how we can dare pass such legislation when less than 100 years earlier we committed wholesale genocide against the indian tribes within our territory for no reason more than they were on land we wanted for our 'Manifest Destiny"?

3. If Turkey invades Iraq and/or cuts off our troop supplies forcing a withdrawal of forces would not the Bushcos accuse the Dems of undermining his grandiose plans causing a US military retreat?

P. S.

The jury is still out on whether genocide occurred in spite of Armenian American claims. Much evidence exists that portions of the Armenian population was in active revolt and possibly also committed atrocities after being armed by the Russians. No one denies the tremendous loss of Armenian lives. One should also look at the number of Turkish lives lost at the same time in the same areas due to famine condtions.

It is still not clear to me and I could be wrong. I think much more research needs to be done on the subject. The bill process needed much more input from the other side. Everyone accuses the Turks odf spending $millions to prevent passage but nothing is said about the $millions spent by the politiical group wanting the bill.

As I said before there is much more concrete evidence of US government policies to eradicate the peoples who populated our North American territory. That sounds like genocide to me, but I could be wrong.

As my daddy once said: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't."

curmudgeon99 is actually correct. We are lacking the information in our history books of actually what happened during that time of history. What I don't understand is why at this particular time when Turkey is our ally and assists us by allowing us to send material, food, supplies etc. to our troops through their territory that the Democrats would be bring such a bill and at this time some 100 years later to offend them. Turkey has constitutional authority through the UN to protect the Turkoman tribe (an endangered nomadic tribe) in northern Iraq which the Kurds have been killing. Something just doesn't make sense here.

good post rebelnow, to carry the thought a little further - I thought that before the war GWB was complaining because Turkey wouldn't allow the launch of invasion forces into Iraq from Turkish soil, well this might be a little late but here is his wish coming true.

Is this just opportunism on the part of Kurds in Iraq? They have the cover of the occupation from which to attempt to avenge Kurdish massacres at the hands of Turkey.

Bush mess spreads. Why is it that Bush cannot stop the Turks, nor the european union either? Something does stink but one wonders if this is the trigger for a WW3 in that a destabilized mideast being the end game? Will we now need a draft to protect our men too from this further destabilization?

Does anyone else think it is odd that while we are supposedly trying to stabilize Iraq that another country can invade (certainly not Iran of course) while we are there and Bush can't do anything about it? One wonders if we really know what is going on behind closed doors.

In speculation...another 200,000 troops of an 'ally' entering Iraq while Bush is striving for a war with Iran? Something stinks.

Wow Genocide Deniers in this blog? It a sad day for humanity. There is absolutely no legitimate basis to deny that the constituted genocide. To question the aspect of Genocide puts you at the level of uneducated fools such as Ahmedinejad. The facts are powerful and irrefutable. International scholars all over concur that Genocide was committed against the Armenians. Whether there might have been a group of "terrorists" before that not disprove the Genocide didn't happen. The Armenians were loyal subjects of the Ottoman Empire. They were mercilessly butchered by the Young Turk government during the transformation from Ottoman Empire to Turkish Republic. There are thousands of books on the Armenian GENOCIDE. You just have not researched the topic properaly. The Armenian Genocide is just as irrefutable as the Jewish Holocaust, and if we had prevented that horrendous event and educated the world it might have been possible to stop the Jewish Holocaust. So before you make such ridiculous statements you need to do your research. Congress even stated that no one refutes that Genocide occurred but it was labeling it in a resolution that caused all this uproar (Mark Lantos) a Holocaust survivor.

So now the Kurdish area of Iraq, which has managed to maintain a relatively peaceful and secure existence during the war, is about to be shredded.

The psychopaths in the White House must be creaming their pants in excitement.

It happened people. Pure and simple. It's just been forgotten.

In fact, Hitler was once given a letter written by a German doctor that was written on behalf of the Jewish people. The doctor feared Germany would be viewed as a barbaric nation if it continued and cited the Armenian massacres as his reasoning.

Hitler laughed and asked his inner circle, "Who even remembers the Armenian massacres today?" He was right.

Thomas J. Comer

c farris October 17th, 2007 6:24 pm "Can Bush possibly be too stupid to appreciate the irony here."

Yes, he can.

Even if you defined 'irony' for him, he would stil be too dull to understand.

Even if you gave him 10,000 examples of irony, he would be too ignorant to grasp the concept.

Iraq never attacked or threatened the U.S. but Bush invaded Iraq anyway. Turkey is being attacked by Kurds in Iraq but Bush is urging restraint on Turkey. Can Bush possibly be too stupid to appreciate the irony here.

Can't we just let the Turks have at it, and pull our troops out? I mean rebelnow has a point, the turks are well meaning folks, just looking to rid their free and democratic society from the evil Kurdish terrorists, and they can't possibly screw it up any worse that BushCo did.

As Cindy Sheehan wrote above, "the abject stupidity" of "BushCo" explains it all. Those who are behind this whole mess, such as the Project for the New American Century, may be very clever -and in fact they are achieving their goals - are not stupid at all. They know what they want and they know how to accomplish their goals. But if one steps back and looks at the overall picture, one can only conclude that this is nothing but "abject stupidity" in the sense of trying to make the world any better or safer for anyone.

No one who is rational and capaple of sober thought can deny the genocide of the Armenians. There are and have been many genocides. I don't know all the details of the history behind the Turky - Kurds situation, but I can say that I think this is another attempt at genocide.

And now, the one relatively calm area in Iraq is about to be thrown into turmoil. I guess somebody just doesn't want any area to be stable in Iraq.

All I can see is the slow movement towards ever greater killing and destruction and nobody seems to care as far as NATO, the UN, and the USA are concerned. How and when will this all stop?

Bush is not stupid. If you have not noticed he gets what he wants. He and his team understand human nature and how to use fear and to manipulate the masses. His mispronunciations are considered quaint and a middle finger to the intellectuals as he understands the general publics desire to dumb-down everything and everybody.
The Turkish kurds want a space of their own like the Iraqi Kurds, for the time being that is, have carved out for themselves in Iraq. It will be interesting to see what happens. The Turkish Parliament gave the go ahead to go into Iraq but it can be anytime within a year so I think it was a bluff to piss of BushCo because of the Armenian resolution passed by the U.S. House. I doubt that Turkey has the resources to stage a major campaign in Iraq.

Well, Quaggenbush was actually right about something for the first time in his two terms as president.

Sorry, Armenians, but it just wouldn't be cool if we went to our windows tomorrow morning, looked out and there wasn't any world.

And the Democrats who decided this was the time to advance the resolution: Did they have no understanding of what would happen?
And why would they want to make Quaggenbush look good? Any little increase to his power jeopardizes us all.
YOU CAN'T TAKE THIS UNSTABLE MAN FOR GRANTED-- NOT FOR A MINUTE!

Further, why would anyone underestimate the tinderbox quality of Iraq? World War I started when some obscure person shot an obscure somebody on a horse.

I have heard learned, pseudo-sophisticated commentators pontificate about how five years ago wasn't the right time to bring up the Armenian genocide question, or four or three or two or two into the future.

Wrong! Even a flea-brain should be wise enough to hold off and hold its breath until Quaggenbush is out of office. That would be the time to bring up this resolution.

BE SMART!

I think the events have to be brought into some perspective.

Turkey is threatening to send it's troops into Northern Iraq after repeated attacks against Turkish interests - both military and civilian by PKK terrorists based in Northern Iraq. The Turks have shown considerable restraint and have REPEATEDLY asked the Iraqis and the US authorities to stop the PKK's violent incursions, to no avail whatseover. The most recent outrage is the murder of thirteen Turkish soldiers in Turkish national territory which leaves no doubt whatsoever about the real security threat posed by the PKK to Turkey and it's people.

There can be NO comparison whatsover between the massive US led invasion of Iraq supported by many Western states and Turkey's possible invasion.

First, the US invaded Iraq on the basis of disarming the Iraqi government of weapons of mass destruction that were never found. By contrast, the Turks have a very real threat emanating from Northern Iraq.

Second, unlike the US which seeks to maintain hegemony over the region, Turkey has no territorial claims to Iraqi territory whatsoever.

Third, whereas the US invasion was a huge logistics operation involving a large scale land air and sea operation, the proposed Turkish incursion is likely to be far more limited - it is hard to see how it could lead to anywhere as many casualties - assuming it were to go ahead, that is.

I hope these hard facts help to bring the reality into some perspective.

so now its obvious-aside from the exploitation of the wedge issues-the traditional ones,and the new ones framed since 9/11 ,this administration is clinically clueless.apraxic-aphasic-even if all this present mess is part of some plan the public is not privy to,the events appear to be spinning out o control.now the boy king wants OTHER people to exercise restraint,where their vital national interests are concerned.bring 'em on? mission accomplished? like we used to say on the playground,"whatcha gonnado now,tuff guy? i understand that demonizing this frat boy president solves nothing,i've grown used to his brazen sense of entitlement,and his over-compensating swagger,BUT I'M STILL AMAZED THAT A GUY THIS OVERMATCHED AND OUT OF HIS ELEMENT EVER BECAME PRESIDENT,ER,DECIDER GUY,FOR ALL US USA AMERICANS.

The horrifying and brutal truth of the matter is that it was the Turks that were brutally murdered by Armenians, just as Azerbaijanis were brutally murdered in 1992, and are brutally oppressed to this very day by the Armenians!! Why doesn't anyone on this board actually do some of their own independent research before glibly believing the lying, anti-Turk, racist shrieks of the Armenians??

The disgusting and horrifying lie perpetrated by the Armenians to this day is a disgusting and wretched political stunt designed to paint themselves as victims, and to cause the international community to gang up on the Turks. All of the documents and photos produced by the Armenians in their propaganda all too often turn out to be photos of events in other parts of the world in a completely different time than the alleged time and place, or are completely fabricated photos, or are completely fabricated documents. On the other hand, there are mountains of irrefutable evidence that it was the Armenians who commited the most brutal and heinous crimes against their Turkish neighbours.

The Turkish academic community has made repeated invitations to the Armenians to go through the archives in Turkey (which are completely open) together, and to hold open, public hearings on the alleged genocide, but the Armenians always refuse, and instead go around the world spreading lies and political propaganda designed to harm Turkey.

References:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/
Search for "Khojaly Massacre"
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5078/account.htm

I know this is about the horrible situation regarding Northern Iraq and the Kurds, but, again, the topic of the Armenian Genocide has come up, and suffers misperception. Despite the fact that I have papers to write, I am compelled to reply yet again because so much of this history is new to many (because of H. Res. 106) and thus, we are very ill-informed. As an Armenian-American peace activist, it is a painful realization that after years of struggle against Turkish denial, the most formidable challenge today is American ignorance, and the way that Turkey and BushCo. have recently been capitalizing on that innocent ignorance. Regardless, my very real concern is that this marriage of ills will cost aged survivors to die betrayed, yet again.

Re "the history of 1915, under Ottoman rule is not clear; there is debate"

In fact, it is quite clear that a genocide took place and there is very little "debate" on the issue. Evidence exists in the form of archival records (American, Ottoman and German, to name three), legal records (few are aware that the perpetrators were condemned, in absentia, by Turkish court marshal), survivor diaries, living survivors (the few still alive), and historical scholarship. The fact that our textbooks don't provide the information (hence its uncertain) is sloppy logic, and only highlights the effects of systematic denial. While the following is not a soundly academic approach, it is the quickest, most accessible, and perhaps most shocking way for me to make clear that the "debate" on this issue is invalid, and only a result of denialist rhetoric by Turkey and BushCo.

The truth will, I hope, empower you to take a stance for recognition of the genocide (NOT on behalf of Pelosi and Democrats, but on behalf of the SURVIVORS who have made the U.S. their home and deserve an official end to the lunacy that is denial, which threatens the legitimacy of their past and personal experience). While it is difficult to fully explain, denial causes psychological trauma. Hence, recognition does serve a purpose in helping victims and survivors to heal. In short, the issue of genocide is not an irrelevant issue of the past but one that affects us all in an abstract way, and Armenians in a very particular way. There is a reason I post on here, time and time again. I am struggling, uphill, against the erasure of my past. Ignor-ance erases the ignor-ed.

In addition, consider that Turkey has had a long-standing tension with Kurds. Turkey's devastating treatment of Kurds within Turkey is another veiled issue. These events fit into a much larger context. Turkey has threatened to invade Northern Iraq for some time and is using the Genocide resolution as a way to do what is on her agenda, irrespective of H. Res. 106. This may also be a bluff as Turkey needs the U.S. just as much as the latter needs the former. In either case, don't be taken by the myth that H. Res. 106 is responsible for this because it comes at a bad time. H. Res. 106 is not new. It has been alive in Congress for many years, suppressed. The reason it is an issue now is because Pelosi, due to her Armenian constituents, has vowed to actually bring it to the floor for voting while her predecessor, Dennis Hastert – in the pocket of Turkey – has always barred it from being voted on. Hence, Turkey has threatened Armageddon and these developments are a part of the hellfire. There will never be a "right time" for this. And it ought always be the "right time" for recognition of the past. This resolution does not represent Democrats. It represents Armenians, who must be allowed to heal after unimaginable devastation and nearly 93 years of official denial. An additional point of tragic politik: Israel too refuses to recognize the Armenian Genocide, in order to highlight the exclusivity of the Holocaust, and perhaps other reasons. Stop the madness.

All horror in the world is interconnected. We cannot afford to turn any blind eyes.

Below, I will link three articles published, in the New York Times, at the time of the killings, deportations and massacres of Armenians. In 1915, Raphael Lemkin – a Jewish survivor of the Holocaust and lawyer – had not yet lived and coined the word "geno-cide." When he did coin it, though, he made explicit mention of the Armenians in his analysis, supplying a history for the specific crime that pre-dated the Holocaust. There are VERY few, if any, credible scholars who argue that the plight of the Armenians was not genocide. In fact, the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) has issued a statement supporting H. Res. 106, highlighting the seriousness of genocide denial. To date, the world has seen many genocides and countless other gross human rights violations. Those on this site are better aware of the world we inhabit. Every single victim deserves recognition and a chance to heal.

We have not yet reached a time in our human existence where such horror is obsolete, or a time when all such crime is free of denial, and are recognized (MUCH is left to be said about the plight of Native Americans on this very soil of forgotten bones and cemeteries, where we honor a slayer named Christopher). Yes, of course, Iraq is a tragedy … as have been Afghanistan, Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank, Israel, Burma, Darfur, and as will be Iran if we don't stop the war drums. However, these facts do not negate – and should not yield apathy toward – support for the recognition of one particular horror. Starting at the very beginning of the 20th century, let us work to recognize the dark side of our human history, and confront it in the present. Apathy will never bring a new day.

Let's not be dismissive of H. Res. 106, as Turkey and BushCo. demand. Instead, let's work for MORE recognition and MORE action and MORE resistance – to the utter madness of our world. Yes, Democrats are failing on Iraq but American lack of support for 106 does not protest or negate Democrats; it only betrays survivors.

Here are the three articles (3 of the countless in NYT archives):

SAYS EXTINCTION MENACES ARMENIA: Dr. Gabriel Tells of More Than 450,000 Killed in Recent Massacres. 600,000 DRIVEN INTO EXILE. [Sep. 25, 1915]
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9B00E0DB133FE233A25756C2A96F9C946496D6CF

ARMENIAN HORRORS SEEN BY GERMANS; Documents in Possession of the French Government Give Details of Atrocities. [Nov. 12, 1916]
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0DE3DF123AE633A25751C1A9679D946796D6CF

THE DEATH OF ARMENIA: Her Land Has Been Devastated and the Few Survivors Driven Out. [Sep. 17, 1915]
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0DE2DF1239E333A25754C1A96F9C946496D6CF

Here's one more… There are many but this one is particularly dreadful:

ARMENIANS ARE SENT TO PERISH IN DESERT: Turks Accused of Plan to Exterminate Whole Population People of Karahissar Massacred. [Aug. 18, 1915]
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802E6D71E3EE033A2575BC1A96E9C946496D6CF

As you look over this post, please take a moment to imagine how it feels, for an Armenian, to have to take the time to review these articles, and bring them to you. I hope this has been useful to whoever has read. Now that you know, what will you do?

Note: as you read about the killings of Armenians in the NYT archives, you will also learn about the wonton killing of Greeks and Assyrians under the Empire. Scholars are coming to realize that, in addition to the Armenian Genocide, there were similar murderous campaigns against other ethnic Christian minorities (but this was not faith-based; it was ideology-based Pan-Turkism). For more on Greeks, one may do well to search an author by the name of Thea Halo, who published her mother's story. Thea is the descendent of Greeks who were slaughtered beside Armenians, in the Ottoman Empire. For more on Pan-Turkism and the transition from Ottoman Empire to the Republic of Turkey, see Taner Akcam's "From Empire to Republic" and, his most recent book, "A Shameful Act." Akcam too is in danger: www.akcam.info.

For a telling glimpse of Turkey's recent response to H. Res. 106, here is an article that was published in Zaman, a Turkish paper. It provides a scary view:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=124835

I tried to be brief but I realize this is quite long. May you all forgive me.

Peace,

E.S.M.,
ArmenianNonviolence (@gmail.com)

PS: The post by "timefortruth" is a good example of Turkish denial. I shall not respond directly but I do have a deep sense of compassion for such examples of denial. The government of Turkey includes denial as a part of her middle-school curriculum and suppresses (and in some cases assassinates) discussion on such taboos. What timefortruth fails to note is that Turkey has, in the past, banned conferences like the one Turkey now rhetorically offers. There is no need to research further. There is no "debate" and websites like "tallarmeniantale" only serve to quell our possible reconciliation, based on an accurate account of the sad history our people have shared.

Okay, I am responding directly… timefortruth, aside from the Ottoman Generals who organized and sanctioned genocide, 20 refused to participate. They were demoted and hung. Sadly, while there is some documentation of those men, their stories are largely left untold and unknown, because of the official denial. I wish we knew more about those 20 heroes. They are the key to peace between people like you and I.

ArmenianNonViolence? How dare you claim to practice non-violence! You are at best a scam artist and a miserable coward, trying to profit from the ill-gotten sympathy of the people of the world.

Those links you post are to New York Times articles written in 1915. America was at war with the Ottoman empire at this time, and American newspapers routinely demonised the Turks, portraying them as subhuman monsters in their cartoons and articles - muslim monsters who are at war with pure, beautiful christian people. You do what the Armenian Anti-Turkish lobby continues to do - dismiss the idea of a debate because your appeals are to racism and emotional blackmail, not reason and compassion. The fact that the Armenian genocide does not appear in history texts the way the Armenian lobby would like it to appear is that serious academics unaffiliated with the Armenians or Turks are interested in the facts - they have no time for propaganda. Historians that have an axe to grind on the other hand have written thousands of pages of sanctimonious, racist lying garbage that you, sir, continue to spew forth here.

There is a european tradition of demonising the Turks in this way (I am italian by the way) - these mysterious non-christian orientals are either treated with indifference, contempt, or fear. The Ottoman empire hosted many people, who lived harmoniously within its borders. Its only during the war that the allied powers saw fit to accuse Turkey of commiting crimes against its christian subjects.

Here is something that appeared in a newspaper which at that time, would have been considered a lefty, liberal hippie newspaper:
"...Matter sent to the papers by their correspondents in Turkey is biased against the Turks. This implies an injustice against which even a criminal on trial is protected."

Gordon Bennett, publisher, The New York Herald, circa 1915

The Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Bill O'Reillys of 1915, the voices of murder and destruction then, become the "ArmenianNonviolence" liars and false sympathy gatherers of 2007. Your real agenda is the continued humiliation of Turkey, not compassion for the people in the Ottoman empire in 1915.

Hey what is all this nonsense by the Turkish Parliament?

They sound a lot like our Congress.

It was really ironic to hear Bush tell the Turks that invasion was a bad idea and they should resort to diplomacy.

They must know by now that we the giant super power of the world are the only ones allowed to invade another country.

Gee I wonder if all those peaceniks marching in the streets around the world just prior to the invasion of Iraq were right when they predicted that an incursion into a sovereign nation would quickly escalate to other countries in the region?

Poor George he is so bewildered and confused by the turn of events in the Middle East.

He was told and he believed that America is the most powerful nation in the history of the world, so why are we having so much trouble with third world camel jockeys?

Because he was sound asleep during history lessons about the collapse of the British Empire and the more recent attempts by America to conquer Vietnam.

Here is all the evidence that you need to see that Turkey treats the Kurds badly.

We treat them so badly that they have equal rights to their Turkish brothers.
We treat them so badly that they have their own newspapers and tv stations.
We treat them so badly that they have their own schools.
Their lives are so bad that they have to vote in the country that they live in.
We treat the Kurds so badly that when Saddam was gassing them we took them in.
Terrible Turks sent food, medicine and clothes to them and built them tents and houses so they could have a roof over their heads.

After the French President's wife claimed we did not do enough for them, she was going to save them herself. It turns out that she only took in only a handful of educated, economically well-off Kurds to France. After a short while, these same Kurds asked if they could return to Turkey, saying that they were being forced to stay in sub-standard accomodation while in France.

Kurds are being so mistreated that the Turkish parliament is full of Kurdish MPs. Whats more, Turkey has had 2 Presidents that were Kurdish.

After writing all of this I can see how people think we mistreat Kurds.

Ah yes Turkey is such a bastion of freedom and democracy, with laws like this:
"Public denigration of Turkishness, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and three years."

Makes me want to drop everything and move to Turkey.

Correction:

"Whats more, Turkey has had 2 Prime ministers that were Kurdish."

Should read:

"Whats more, Turkey has had 2 Presidents that were Kurdish."

What a misery-filled world we live in...

timefortruth wrote: "America was at war with the Ottoman empire at this time, and American newspapers routinely demonised the Turks, portraying them as subhuman monsters in their cartoons and articles."

Nope. America was neutral at the time and would be for another two years. I also happen to have seen newspaper stories from the 1850s supporting Turkey against Russian aggression in the leadup to the Crimean War, so the media have not always been anti-Turkish.

Would it be offensive to point out that the Turks have not only repeatedly slaughtered the Armenians (e.g. in the 1890s under Abdul Hamid) but also created "Turkey" by totally destroying Greek civilization in all of Anatolia and the European area from Constantinople (Istanbul) to Adrianople (Edirne). They turned the greatest cathedral in Orthodox Christianity, Justinian's Church of the Holy Wisdom in Constantinople, into a mosque, and then more recently into a museum. There were still some Greeks in Smyrna and Constantinople when the Ottoman Empire fell in 1918, but the Turkish Republic has taken care of that. It's pretty much what we did to the American Indians between the Rio Grande and the Canadian border except there are no Greek reservations or tribal rights. If the Turks want to pass an anti-genocide resolution against the U.S. or the Mexicans want to condemn the U.S. aggression of 1846, I guess that would be fair too.

No one should assume that the Turks are simpletons. They have been looking for whatever excuses they can find to ignore the wishes of Washington and to invade Northern Iraq. Of course the proper retaliation against a US condemnation of the genocide of the Armenians would be a Turkish condemnation of US genocide of Native American Indians and enslavement of Africans. But instead the Turks will use such a condemnation of the Armenian genocide to gain support for an incursion.

It does make me wonder what is going through the minds of the Democratic leadership. They cannot pass any resolution condemning our monsters in charge but they can throw stones, likely leading to even more harmful chaos, at a reputed ally whose history is no more dirty than our own.

Here is a no-nonsense explanation of what is going on in Turkey. The Turkish economy was weakened by a massive earthquake that struck Istanbul in 1999. 20,000 dead. Thousands of buildings damaged. A lot of people left without a roof over their heads. Massive damage to the economy. In 2001 the Turkish economy went into a nosedive. Corporate pundits in Turkey blamed centre-left PM Bulent Ecevit for starting the crisis (which is nonsense... the economic crisis had been coming for some time and Western bankers went after indebted Turkish businesses like a pack of hungry wolves). A lot of the secular middle-class lost its economic power. The supposedly Islamic conservative AKP (in reality an unashamedly pro-business party that tries to model itself on Christian conservative parties in the West) won the election in 2002. In 2003 the U.S. and Britain barged into Iraq with complete disregard for Turkey's national security concerns. Some time later the EU unilaterally declared the divided island of Cyprus EU territory and European conservative media started its "Turkey is not European. Turkey is a poor muslim country unfit to join the EU" campaign. Rightwingers Sarkozy and Merkel got themselves elected on a populist "Turkey doesn't belong in the EU" campaign line.

With Turkey weakened on all fronts, the Kurds started their independence rara and violence again, the Armenian diaspora in the U.S. and France cranked up its "Turks are Genocidal criminals" efforts again. U.S. media painted a picture of Turkey as constantly looking to "meddle" in Iraq for its own gain, even though Turkey never even came close to an intervention. Greece found much merriment in seeing its historical enemy brought to the brink of ethnic division and being put on the Holocaust pedestal alonside the Germans. The final straw for Turks was Rupert Murdoch buying TV channels in Turkey and supporting anti-secularist islamic conservative sentiments and Nancy Pelosi pushing an Armenian Genocide bill to appease the Armenian diasporra in California.

What you are looking at right now is not some two-bit strategic move on the part of Turkey. The Turkish public - secularists, lefties and righties - is voluntarily lining up behind the Turkish Armed Forces to push the Armenian, Kurdish, Christian conservative and Greek Orthodox assault on Turkey's history, foreign policy, geographic integrity and economic and political sovereignty back.

Whatever plans the U.S. and EU were making for the "new Turkey" they've been trying to pummel into shape are off the table now. Ataturk's modern, secular republic is learning to stand up and walk again after nearly seven years spent in a passive coma. The Turkish public probably won't take any more shit from Western powers, lobbyists or investors from this point forward either. Too much sovereignty has been lost. Too much damage has been inflicted to Turkey's culture, history, social structure and political standing in the world.

philos,

Thanks for that. It was entertaining and informative.

Hey folks there is genocide in War and all this "Victum of genocide" envy is a distraction planned or not from getting down to the business of ending the cause of Genocide... which is the cause of terrorism also (our present preoccupation and excuse for more War)....get it folks, the freakin cause is the racket of War!!!
Yes this genocide envy is a distraction that only fuels more hatred and War.

Come on folks, if our freakin congress can't get it together to call the wiping out of millions of American Indians worse or at least just as bad as any other genocidal war then they are more stupid (or cunning) than Bush.

Here we are long after this is history and too late to do anything about but open old wounds that just distract us from ending or at least lessening the cause of all the genocides and near genocides or Shock and Awe War Crimes of any kind (and they are all equally horrible in the end), we are just helping the War Machine stay in business...

Now go do something to help or something that helps somebody or some animal on the Planet, OK?

This distraction is total bullshit!

Oil. It's about oil.

Turkey with it's huge, underemployed population and lack of adequate supplies of oil needs it. The US convienently defeated and then disbanded the Iraqi army and even more convienently destroyed Fallujah. Our claims to be in Iraq to protect the people is repeatedly proven wrong by our public insistance on passage of the "oil law."

The oil law pretty much gives Iraqi oil to US corporations.

The US military is bogged down in Iraq and it's troops are at the limits of their stamina. The Turks, like every other armed forces in the world, have been taking extensive notes on how Iraqi resitance fighters have ground down and decimated the US army. A confrontation with the Turks will NOT happen.

Well given the removal of either a physical or a moral constraint there is no reason why the Turks shouldn't roll over the Kurds in northern Iraq and grab some oil for themselves. After all they have a better claim to northern Iraq than the Jews had to Palestine, they controlled it prior to WWI for over 500 years.

Turkey can take those oil fields around Kirkuk and hold them. Nobody's going to stop them and they aren't going to hesitate to use scorched earth tactics against the Kurds. They've done it inside Turkey for years and aside from a few pro-forma human rights criticisms nothing untoward has happened. They have a draft and a surplus of young men of military age. We knocked a big rock off the top of the hill and now there's a rockslide; it's to#gh sh#t all around.

error

ArmenianForNonviolence wrote:

"Note: as you read about the killings of Armenians in the NYT archives, you will also learn about the wonton killing of Greeks and Assyrians under the Empire. Scholars are coming to realize that, in addition to the Armenian Genocide, there were similar murderous campaigns against other ethnic Christian minorities (but this was not faith-based; it was ideology-based Pan-Turkism)."

You better be able to explain this map, AFN. 1920. Treaty of Sevres Western powers (the "victors" over the crumbled Ottoman empire) tried to impose on the Turks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TreatyOfSevres_%28corrected%29.PNG

You see modern Turkey with territory earmarked for Greece, territory earmarked for Armenia, territory earmarked for British and French control, territory earmarked for the Kurds, territory earmarked for international control (i.e. British, French et al again).

A young Turkish officer named Kemal Ataturk came along, tore up that treaty and fought for the creation of the independent Turkish Republic, much to the chagrin of everyone who wanted a piece of the Ottoman pie. Today wee see thinly veiled attacks on Ataturk's legacy by the likes of News Corporation in Turkey, and the same Greek, Armenian, Kurdish and French clowns pushing stories about murderous, oppressive Turks to a gullible Western audience just as they did back in the days.

People like you seem to think that the pieces in the Middle East are up in the air once again, nobody knows what you are up to, and you can ride along and push for a second Sevres-style ethnic partition of Turkey again.

You're not the first pretend "Genocide" scholar I've seen. Whenever there's some international story about Turkey, you guys, and your Greek, Cypriot, French and Kurdish colleagues wave your arms around and try to make Turkey look bad in any way you possibly can. You are never short on cash or media attention. There's always some gullible audience for your underdog and oppression tales, some media outlet that wants to air this stuff for ratings.The same stink about Turkey's history gets repeated whenever the country is doing something positive - like trying to join the EU for example.

philos,

Your "no-nonsense explanation" overlooks the legitimacy of almost every grievance anyone has against the Republic of Turkey. Your interpretation basically boils down to: 'Anyone who has any problem with Turkey is self-serving and only wants to disgrace Turkey. They all waited until a strategic time and now, they're ganging up on Turkey. So... Turkey is now taking matters into her own hands and defending herself from all these liars and mud-slingers.' As Akcam analyzes in his book, "From Empire to Republic," this paranoia of the meddling West is as strong a legacy of Mustafa Kemal as is secularism. It does stem from the post-war influences but today, what remians is an outdated reinforcement of Nationalism. In the modern world, the deep structure of Turkish government has used this idea of the "meddling West" to reinforce Turkish Nationalism.

The general logic is similar to that of the National Security State in the U.S. today. Any time this Administration has a new plan, national security color codes begin flashing: orange, yellow, pink... "THEY are a threat to OUR way of life" and so on. People fall in line. Really, the claims of Greeks, Kurds, Armenians and Assyrians are much more legitimate than you make them out to be. No nonsense.

As for your accusation about cash... Here's an interesting article about how much cash Turkey is using to fight resolutions in the American Congress, and exactly how they're doing it. Again, Turkey's strategy is similar to what American corporations, like Halliburton and Lockheed and Bechtel, do to lobby for war . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/washington/17lobby.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

And this is just one example. Never mind the money that Turkey uses to fund American colleges, encyclopedias, and educational text books. You seem to be expressing denial about denial.

Peace,

E.S.M.,
ArmenianNonviolence

PS: I understand that this is a sensitive topic, but can we cut the name-calling?

Correction: As Akcam analyzes in his book, "From Empire to Republic," this paranoia of the meddling West is as strong a legacy of Mustafa Kemal as is secularism. It does stem from the post-war influences of the West but today, what remains is an out-dated reinforcement of Nationalism. In the modern Republic, the deep structure of Turkish government uses this idea of the "meddling West" to reinforce Turkish Nationalism, and rally support against anything which attempts to discuss subjects deemed taboo - in or outside the limits of Turkey's border. The oft-discussed Article 301, which prosecutes "Insulting Turkishness," is yet another manifestation of this. As many may recall, Orhan Pamuk, the Turkish Nobel Prize winner, was brought up on this charge. The charges were later dropped. Afterwards, the Republic of Turkey attempted to file a lawsuit against the Nobel Commission for awarding Pamuk the prize.

I make the correction because it would be unfair to have left out the real influences of the West, after the war. Nor does Akcam claim that the myth was made up. Rather, it does, indeed, have a historic and logical origin. The way it is used to maintain taboos in Turkey, and maintain national narratives of denial, is another matter.

Peace,

E.S.M.,
ArmenianNonviolene

Whether it's Turkey or the U.S.A., the results of mass murder are exactly the same.

Forget Halloween; the ultimate horror is already upon us.

>> As Akcam analyzes in his book, "From Empire to Republic," this paranoia of the meddling West is as strong a legacy of Mustafa Kemal as is secularism. It does stem from the post-war influences of the West but today, what remains is an out-dated reinforcement of Nationalism. <<

Multinationals have been buying everything that isn't bolted down in Turkey. Advertising agencies. Banks. Insurance companies. Retail outlets. Prime real estate on Turkey's coasts. Outdoor advertising properties. Media and Telecom assets. Formerly state owned industries like Petkim. You are talking billions of dollars worth of acquisitions, one after the other. 75% of stock market moves in Turkey are foreign investors playing the market. And you can feel corporate media censoring anything these investors might not like. 400,000 people marched to Ataturk's mauseleum in Ankara to protest against Turkey being pushed towards a mix of Islamic conservatism and Western hypercapitalism.

A single TV channel out of dozens broadcasting in Turkey covered that march live. The rest were showing basketball games, documentaries, cartoons, throwaway TV shows. You could tell that they were going out of their way to relegate it to a quick segment on the 8 o'clock news. It frightened a lot of Turks to death. "Who the hell is running our media?" was the question on a lot of people's mind. It caused an uproar. A lot of big media properties went into damage control mode for weeks afterward.

Don't even get me started on the number of journalists who've been kicked out of their former jobs for not going along with Turkey's new hypercapitalist overlords. A lot of them are working for the smaller independent channels and newspapers now. It turns out that these investors don't like people discussing whether Turkey is selling too many national assets too quickly or whether handing your economy over to anyone who trundles along with a spare billion dollars to invest is smart. They also don't want to explain why advertising in the last four years has been so focused in steering people towards credit card debt and banks have been handing out plastic like candy; why housing prices rocketing through the ceiling is good for Turkish people or what happens if Global recession hits and capital flight begins.

All of this went over the heads of Turkish people. Investors come in. Make large acquisitions. Change the tone of advertising on TV. Change the traditional ethics of Turkish media and business. Create a pundit class that backs everything they do. Push a culture of unfettered spending and consumerism on people until its everywhere and you can't hide from it anymore. Try to use their financial power to affect elections and political discourse in the country.

A lot of stuff that looked like conspiracy theory to people five years ago feels very real now. That's why nationalism is on the rise in Turkey and there is a palpably strong public reaction to what the West has been doing the last couple of years.

Changa's Revenge wrote -

Ah yes Turkey is such a bastion of freedom and democracy, with laws like this:
"Public denigration of Turkishness, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and three years."

Makes me want to drop everything and move to Turkey.

Again, some perspective is necessary. Almost NOBODY in Turkey has ever been sent to jail for this ridiculous law, the most they can ever expect is to be fined if they make racist comments about Turkish identity, and in any case the majority of people prosecuted under the law have had their cases dismissed.

Besides, Turkey had over three hundred TV stations, a thousand radio channels and more daily newspapers than any other nation other than India or the US so the idea that freedom of expression is absent in Turkey is a little far fetched. Besides, Article 301 of the Turkish constitution has been criticized heavily by all sections of the Turkish society, including the country's President, so the odds are it will eventually be repealed.

One more thing - please refrain from attacking the personal integrity of ArmenianNonViolence - he is, after all as entitled to his views as any of us. And a final thank you to Atasdaughter for setting the record straight on Turkey's treatment of it's Kurds.

Also - please refrain from attacking the personal integrity of ArmenianNonViolence - he is as entitled to his views as anybody else. And finally a thank you to Atasdaughter for setting the record straight on Turkey's treatment of the Kurds.

As I was reading all the posts i felt sick, then i felt sorry for all of you who claim Turkey is this evil nation who does the most terrible things to people.

Now the only thing i feel for you all is PITTY.

How funny it is that you claim to know more about a country I was born and lived in.

You people who have not even set foot in Turkey, know nothing about its people their culture their proud history.

I also know that there is no reasoning with people like you because you are all blind to truth.

You all sit in your high horses and give opinions on things you don't know or understand.

All you know is what you have been TOLD to Believe.

All you think is what you have been TOLD to Think.

Do you people even have your own independent thoughts?

I won't even touch on the Hypocrisy of Americans talking about Justice and Equality when they have a teriible history, regarding the treatment of American Indians and African Americans.

Why don't you apoligize to them and give their land back.

It is always very funny and amusing to hear all you people claim you know MY COUNTRY better then ME.

You can all talk until you are blue on the face and show all these articles written by people who have never set foot in Turkey, but you can not CHANGE the TRUTH.

I also know you will jump on the wagon of; OH but your own people say it and they been punished.

Well all i would say to that is every country has a handfull of rotten apples.

Their concern is not Human rights or truth but how much money and fame they can get. And also don't forget the chance to live in Europe.

Europeans open their arms and give full residents to any one who claims Turkey has done something Wrong.

Don't forget the side order of bags full of MONEY,Publishing books and Paid Seminars.
Hey they went as far as Give a NOBEL PRIZE for God's sake.

I had few of Pamuk's old books and I know you won't believe me but he was never a good Writer and still is not.

You people have it hard over there if you want to become famous or rich. You actually have to work hard.

Here the hardest thing i have to do is decide whether i want to live in Paris, London or Rome.

Once i decide all i need to do is Write a paper on how terrible i have been treated because my grandmother was Kurdish(she was a Kurd who was Proud to be A TURK)and also mention the Armenians and thats it. I am on the next flight to Paris thanks to the Parisian Tax payers.

WITH LOTS OF MONEY AND MEN WITH NO DIGNITY YOU CAN RE-WRITE HISTORY.

BUT YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE HISTORY.

I AM PROUD TO BE TURKISH. I CAN SAY THAT PROUDLY AND KNOWING THE TRUTH ABOUT MY PAST.

I AM ALSO GREATFULL TO MY ANCESTORS TO LEAVE SUCH A PROUD LEGACY BEHIND.

MAY THEY REST IN PEACE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT UNLIKE SOME OF YOU,
I DON'T NEED TO RE WRITE MY HISTORY IN ORDER TO BE PROUD OF WHERE I COME FROM.

Have a Great Day.

Atasdaughter thank you for telling us the Turkish side of the story but please try not to be too nationalistic. Remember that all nationalism, Turkish or not is bad as it tries to delegitimize the ``other''. Part of what makes free speech so great is that everyone has the chance to say their side of the story.

I would like to point out an important fact in this discussion.

Historians from all over the world concur that the acts of 1915 constitute Genocide. There is no debate on this topic in the professional community, both in the United States and around the world. Raphael Lemkin, after escaping from Poland during the Nazi occupation, coined the term genocide in regards to the Armenian Genocide. Renown genocide scholar Samantha Powers has talked about the Armenian Genocide in her famous book "A Problem From Hell." Adolf Hitler was quoted saying "Who, after all, speaks today of the Annihilation of the Armenians" when asked what the world would say about his "final solution" for the Jewish inhabitants. There are thousands of other NON-ARMENIAN, Armenian and even Turkish scholars who agree on this issue. The truth is out there an individual research will bring you to that conclusion. The Armenian Genocide was well documented by Arman Wagner's photographs, survivor testimony's and even Henry Morgenthou the ambassador to the USA in the Ottoman Empire, amongst others (missionaries etc etc). This Genocide was carried out by the Young Turk government and its intent was to eliminate the Armenian population through mass deportation, rape and torture. Despite killing more up to 1.5 million Armenians the few who did survive fled to neighboring Persia and the USA. And we live on today.

The resolution proposed in congress is in no way debating whether genocide existed in 1915, because that is as much of a fact as is the history of the Jewish Holocaust. And deniers of this fact fall into Ahmedinejads category (for he denies the Holocaust). This resolution is symbolic and necessary. Today we see genocide in Darfur and we have seen Genocide in Rwanda. It is time to take a stance on this issue and make it clear that we oppose genocide whenever and whenever it occurs.

With that said I do not have any anger towards the Turkish people. And this resolution is not directed at the Turkish people. However, I believe that the Turkish government's actions are provocative and baseless. The Turkish government has been trying to scare America and stop this legislation by putting troops on its borders, arresting massive numbers of Armenians in Turkey, bribing members of congress, instigating a law that imprisons anyone who uses the word genocide in regards to what happened to the Armenians in 1915 and watching as Hrant Dink was murdered in public in Turkey for speaking out against denial of the Armenian Genocide. The Turkish government will not send troops into Iraq as senator Lantos (a Holocaust survivor) says "The Turkish government will not act against the United States because that would be against their own interests." He goes on to say "One of the problems we have diplomatically globally is that we have lost our moral authority which we used to have in great abundance," "People around the globe who are familiar with these events will appreciate the fact that the United States is speaking out against a historic injustice. This would be like sweeping slavery under the rug and saying slavery never occurred."

Genocide is Genocide and Pelosi says that in 20 years the same argument has been used as a denial tool, the timing is just not right. This is a human rights issue. And if we cannot confront history and condemn the evils that plague civilization then we well fail in our attempts to stop the current genocide in Darfur and others that may arise in the suture. The time has come to act against inhumanity and pass this resolution.

Oil at $90/barrel.

Turkey about invade northern Iraq.

Iranians blamed for 'IEDs' in Afghanistan.

US carrier and battle groups in the Persian Gulf.

Dick Cheney must be about to bust a nut in his pants.

I'm sure you were just about to mention the 140 Turkish officers arrested by the French and British in 1920, and imprisoned in Malta, charged with perpetrating the crimes against the Armenians. Why don't you mention them? Hang on.... could it be because they were released?

Could your decision not to mention this have anything to do with the following:

1) That the documents they were handed as evidence turned out to be forgeries
2) That Aram Andonian stuffed up the forgery because the dates used on the forged documents were in a different calendar system than was used in Turkey at the time (This is the forgery that is supposed to show the Turkish government's devious and nasty plans for the Armenians)
3) That documents detailing Armenian insurrection (Armenian milita fighting against the Ottoman army) during the war were discovered by the investigators, despite claims that there was no insurrection by the Aram Andonian.

I'm sure your vehement and petulant accusations against the Turks are completely honest and honourable, and that there is no malice in your words, or hatred for the Turks.

I'm sure you're not a racist lying scumbag at all.

Armin Wegner's photos: Oh, do you mean the one which turned out to be a photo of the 1872 painting "The Apotheosis of War," which hangs in the Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow??? Yes, I can see how compelling his "evidence" is. I'm sure you're motivations are nothing but sincere and honest. I'm sure you're not trying to trick people by mentioning Armin Wegner to people who have no idea who he was.

Hitler says "Who today speaks of the Armenians?" - I'm not even going to bother with this one. This precious little piece of lying bullshit is repeated so often (with no actual evidence that this was said) that its meaningless to talk about. This is a device intended to confuse and cheapen the debate.

And the magic number of 1.5 million Armenian deaths that is shoved down the throats of unsuspecting people you prey on is particularly sickening.
The insult of this deception is deepened when you take a look at how the magic figure has changed over the years, and varies wildly depending on who is speaking, and who the speaker is speaking to. It used to be 500,000. Then it became 800. Oh, but then, that soothing, magic, lottery winning number - One MILLION! Hearing a number like that kind of makes you feel like you've won the lottery. One Million - thats a big, satisfying number. Everyone feels rich when they hear 1 million. 1 million what? Who cares! Its a million!

But hang on, 1 million, kind of sounds too made up, too clean. Why would the Turks kill exactly 1 million... killing is a messy business, you're bound to kill a bit more. 1.2 million sounds better. Add a decimal point, and suddenly it looks like its been measured by somebody. It must be accurate!! Sounds scientific.
Later, some frothing at the mouth loony shrieked 2 MILLION! It was 2 MILLION!!!
Eventually the number settled to 1.5 million a couple of years ago, and that has become the Armenian party line. 1.5 million. 1.5 million. 1.5 million. 1.5 million. 1.5 million. 1.5 million.

You can't escape.

Finally, when you consider that there were only 761,000 living in the eastern provinces at the time, the insult is revelealed a little more fully, and we can all go home.

Stop trying to convince people that you have no hatred for the Turks. You have to really hate somebody to say what you say, knowing its wrong.