ok,

my apologies again. sorry stateless your still there just further up the page. I had to go back and refresh my mind as to what was written and found that you were not clueless. my fault.

forgive me. thanks.

terryb, and anyone else who ever shows up here.

"stateless" aka "clueless" had written a little diatribe on god and christ. I was responding to that as I have been chasing after several other of the comments that were written here which went off on a tangent.

but "statless'" manic cries for help got deleted by the invisible hand that roams behind the visible world of this common dreams site. lordy. . .as they say in the southeast.

personally, I'm a "forgive them for they know not what they do" kind of person otherwise.

uh. . .that's. . .nevermind.

jesus was a good MAN. one of many.

stateless

"As for the god speak: there is no god, and if Jesus were alive today he'd be in Guantanamo."

ok arguing the god part is fruitless.

but if Jesus were alive today he'd probably live in America. that would be tortuous enough.

jesus christ parts of this discussion were torture.

Hey Cindy, haven't you heard?.......... Laura's main apperal is a set of blinders!

The single thread that connects all the events weaves through the Public Relations companies that have risen to power in the years since Bush Senior. Ever since the Hill & Knowlton escapade where they tutored a Kuwaiti princess to lie and bring scorn on Saddam and his henchman by lying about their throwing of babies in incubators to the floor in a hospital, the right-wing agitators learned how to manipulate the people and get their way with zero interference. Similarly, when Dubya hired former Austin cocaine dealer and co-founder of Public Strategies (Paul Begala being the other co-founder, we witnessed how the sliming of those who opposed them would effectively neutralize the opposition and today we have a Democratic opposition obsequious to the point of complete capitulation. Yet no one has addressed these low-lifes and how they can be made to pay for their crimes. Most Americans don't understand how simple it is to get the results Karl Rove orchestrated and until it is spelled out for them, we will see a continued deterioration of our rights.

Geoff29,
Sorry, I didn't understand most of your response to my comments( I don't know the difference between representations of reality and reality itself, because the latter is inaccessible to a merely human intelligence. Nonetheless, experience, observation and reason allow us to select representations that are valid to some higher degree than others. All systems of knowledge were not created to be equal.)
But you are right that main point of the article is the hypocrisy of Laura Bush, not the value of the bible as a representation of reality.
George Galloway gave a striking example of Mrs. Bush's hypocrisy and ignorance in a speech I heard on alternative radio about a year ago. She said that when she hears the recordings of the cell phone calls made by the doomed persons in the WTC on 9/11, she remembers why we are in Afghanistan and Iraq. Mr. Galloway pointed out that Afghani widows don't have cell phones to cry out to any ear that would listen as they're being bombed into oblivion from 80,000 ft. Maybe only victims who are from "us" deserve compassion and concern. Mrs. Bush's smack of a racism and classism she isn't even aware of.
More's the pity.

Much appreciation to those who responded to my "progressive" question, geoff29, pacplyer, uncommondreams (as usual a very insightful, and well written comment), Daniel David, valsmith and others.

As geoff29 says I too "find solace in this site". Knowing that there are people like you writing, thinking, ranting, connecting, gives me hope that it may not be as dark as it appears. If it does all fall apart then I'm confident that there will be enough of us around to rebuild, then again maybe we shouldn't wait for it to fall apart, just rebuild now.

note to Claudius:
my tailgate sports: "he that is not against is for us" - JC (Mark 9:40)

speak out against this madness.
silence=complicity.

Cindy woke up, but she had to suffer personally before she could do it, which is the most common way. The question is whether she would have woken up if her son had not died? I doubt it. Why did she allow her son to join the army? Why did her son even think of the army as a choice? Why couldn't he have worked at MacDonald's like many others do? The problem is one of education and the mood in the American country. America is a country of violence, born and sustained through violence. She grew up in this atmosphere and did not question it until it impinged upon her personal world. This is normal.

Cindy,
great story. By now you see there is no difference between the two parties. You thought that the democrates were the answer to stopping the war. You got thrown out of Nancy's office. The problem we have is with the powerful in general. What little poeple think and feel does not matter anymore. When the majority wants to change something in our contry and we vote and it passes, all it takes is one judge to dissagree. The will of the people means nothing. Your a mother, but now in california, you can't say mother in school. Do you agree with that? The world has gone mad. Everything we have been taught by our Mom and Dad's is being destroyed by a bunch of freeks.

Dave

Thank you Cindy for responding to my question. I have yet to get a response from the Kucinich campaign about Pelosi. And I apologize for the quotes :)

As you can tell from this site alone Americans feel more frustrated then (I've ever seen). We see and feel more things going wrong and can envision little recourse, and our faith in our own system is... almost lost maybe? If more citizens would be citizens like you. (AHEM, CD READERS)

The one thing we can do (and you are) is participate. I plan on running for office in the next few years- if only to get a question or two in the 'debate'. I've said before that a win takes a lifetime, a loss can happen everyday. (in other words freedom takes constant vigilance).

Good Luck!

The comments of Cindy are truly inspirational.
As for the god speak: there is no god, the bible is just a collection of stories that try to explain the unexplainable, and if Jesus were alive today he'd be in Guantanamo.
Sadly, there are plenty of don't-give-a-damns out there like Laura. It just saddens me when I see the young being brainwashed by their fascist parents.

NMBill,

bravo!

I accept wisdom where ever I find it. No one belief is complete in itself.

I try to understand the meaning of life by absorbing what others feel. If it makes sense, I make it part of me.

The crime is thinking your way is the only way.

Cindy,

Right to the point, again -- as usual.

Those who try to put Cindy down as a person speaking outside her area of expertise, both underestimate her analytical abilities and skill at connecting the dots.

They also try to cover up the fact that ANY of us has the right to interject into what goes on around us. What we have is a duty to our fellow humans that we mouth not only our opinions, but that we can also back up what we say.

How many well-paid, well-respected "experts" or "pundits" have proven themselves so very wrong on major issues time after time. What they have, that Cindy lacks, is the "right" to make public statements in traditional media, because they back and have the backing of media's corporate owners. In fact, it is THOSE who, in trying to salvage their own reputations, cause ever-greater damage to the rest of us, by their frequent ignoring of reality.

sheesh ... what [all of you] just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!

JohnR

One might just as well say that Hitchens also muddies a perception of the world? For all anyone knows?

By the way it was Matthew, not specifically the BIBLE, being quoted here you are confused. Perhaps that text, the bible, can be misinterpreted. Perhaps it's fiction. That's irrelevant.

However, were Matthew and Christ not representative of caring people according to the descriptions you find of them? Surely you can make the separation between representation and reality? Though who knows given what we are forced to read in the papers nowadays.

It's quite probable that Christ would agree with you on the irritations of dogma. I've been informed from other posts on this site that he may have been a bit of an anarchist. hmmmm. hopefully in the chomsky way.

It doesn't seem to me that religion and whether there's a god or not are being debated here. That is being intruded into the discussion and is annoying.

What seems to be under discussion is the various aspects of the concept of hypocrisy at this current moment in time and space, and with the problems and entities we are grappling with. Seems to me that Matthew is alluded to as bringing up a good psychological aspect of the problems related to hypocrisy.

The separation between church and state are kind of strictly adhered to in these forums, for the most part.

I'll add my two cents to the definition of progressive debate-

progressive- Favouring or promoting progress

Of course, remember, "Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative."

"rebelnow" asks us to define who the progressives are and what they (we) hope to accomplish. I'd settle for a short list:

1) Corporate personhood reversed and/or re-defined
2) Supreme Court filled with KIND constructionists
3) Fairness Doctrine reinstituted in media
4) Social Security repaid its Trust Fund
5) Taxation sufficient to invalidate Pareto's Law
6) Cable TV sold only by flat fee per channel
7) Campaign finance laws that cannot be circumvented
8) Health Care socialized and avaiable to all
9) Usery laws reinstated

If we really had these things, a lot of other things we debate here would go away too.

Who cares what the bible says? It's a work of fiction. Christopher Hitchens is right to assert that it only muddies our thinking about the world. Tyranny must be opposed on all levels by all caring people, because it is anathema to the development of happy and healthy people. We know that much about human nature thanks to the scientific work of such luminaries as Freud, Maslow, and Fromm. We know that because of the development of the scientific method over the past 500 years --by departing from the superstition and dogma characterizing religious thinking.

She don't care, Laura Bush is made of wax.

jagrio:

it's not clear where your exasperation is coming from exactly?

I've always found that a good place to start for the western mind is Montaigne's "In Defense of Raymond Sebond." Kind of requires you to think though. . .thinking is a good thing????

perhaps it's all just words words words.

It probably isn't a nice thing to say about the First Lady Laura Bush! But, I think she is like most rich people in this country. She was raised in a glass bubble where all the ills of the world never penetrated or effected her. So, she and her husband both are disconnected from reality and void of all feelings for other humans. She doesn't have the ability to sympathize with anyone except maybe her immediate family. Her husband is the same way. They have never lived in the real world with other people. They see themselves as being far above us looking down. It's easy to criticize someone else's faults and take the attention off of your own sins. It just goes with the territory when it comes to people like her. Most of us ignore the poor woman. She reminds me of a mindless drugged out zombie who has no identity of her own. Her only claim to fame is the moron she is married to. When you look at pictures of her she looks totally zoned out. I really feel sorry for the woman being married to the Anti-Christ! It must be rough knowing your mate is throughly hated!

THERE AIN'T NO FUCKING GOD!!! send your proof to jagrio@bayland.net i'll keep all the proof in a thimble...if you can fill it up!

Misunderstanding Chevon 's involvement in Buurma is like miisunderstanding many of the Bush ites actually kissing Saddam's Hussain hand. Can anyone name a few of those people?
And how about today people just like those are kissing the leader pf Pakastan's behind.
I wonder when they will declare war on him? Most likelly not until we nuke IRAN.

rebelnow @ 10:41 pm:
"Everyone talks about "progressives" as if they know what that means. Could someone please explain it? This progressive web site seems to have a share of disgruntled and angry democrats, former angry "never again" democrats, former republicans and now converted socialists, leftists, a few libertarians and anarchists, some greens, some Naderites, etc."

dear Rebelnow: My take is on this is that 'Progressives' are a progression ON, -from what went before. Ergo: we are thus a 'mixed bag'.
We *have in common* that we see the status quo needs altering, and we strive to find the appropriate answers.

Meanwhile / in contradistinction to this, the conserve-atives generally seek to conserve the old, the outworn, the corrupted and etc.
In brief, *Progressives = change ::: conservatives = stasis.*

And yes Rebel, individually we come from many disparate schools of thought, so there is often a disparity of views, but overall our impetus is that we NEED big changes.

All life, including human life, (and thought) needs to EVOLVE, but some 'relics' fatuously try to halt evolution, -like King Canute of old. These die-hard intransigents are not our foes, but our challenge.
- That's the bad news'! :(

-but the good news is that ALL human minds are mutable, not one is eternally fixed, -only temporarily *Foxed* ! :)

In that thought I find encouragement that, -with enough of the right sort of EFFORT on our part, we will assuredly effect big changes in the world. Spearheads of movements always struggle the hardest (vide, eg: the Women's movement, from the Suffragettes onwards) -or consider the hardships endured by Mandela, Ghandi, the black civil rights leaders, et all...

I feel we are at the sharp end of a movement which, -if we fast-forward to (eg) 50years hence, we'll see that it all IS worthwhile.

That's why I so often counter 'I give up and am gonna crawl into a safe little hole' posts here, with a differing view, - one which recognises that our *VISION and dream* must not be thwarted or damaged, or we lose the fight for a better world at the very first hurdle.

**Commitment and persistence** is integral to ensuring that we, ( the Progressives) win out, and not the devil-worshiping clan of Bush and those like him.

I've not once given up since I was in my late teens, nor shall I, -ever!
I am just a tiny little drop in the ocean, but I'm aware that there's a million other 'drops' alongside me, and together we make a powerful WAVE, a powerful tide pushing against the puny sandcastles of those whose vision is rusted, busted, and terminally broke.

Sister Cindy advises: "Buy some eyewash, Laura."
Too late, sister, the Bush-wife is too immersed in HOGWASH, (and other animal-related products!) :)

How could Mrs. Laura Bushbaby live in such close proximity to the Murderer-in-Chief, and still be sane? ~impossible! I think she's probably been dutifully 'instructed' to say what she said about Burma, as an adjunct to the *100% Hypocrisy Machine* which she is very much a part of...
_________________

COMarc @ 1:26 pm:
" Every picture of Bush these days screams that he's sick of this job and wants to quit. Even with his month-long 'vacations', this is still the hardest he's ever worked at a job in his life."
~ Too darned right, friend COMarc!
We ought never forget that this satanic little madcap is bone idle, work-shy, and utterly irresponsible in every way possible. He yearns to get out of the Ovalium Office asap and just go fool around in his playpen once more, sucking on his bottle(s) and munching pretzels in front of the slob-out daytime TV channels.

CeeMiracles: (-good to 'cee' you back again!)
"We have to become our own leaders right where we are standing rather than look to those governing us who fall so short and so often seem ...so incredibly stupid and incompetent."
~Yup! and:
"Seems sort of pathetic that a few hundred... tops 1,000 people in the world are able to control 6.3 billion of us. Don't you think?"

~Yup again!
This is a point I've made a few times here. I think this realization, {once it *REALLY* hits home in human consciousness} is going to be the stick which loosens the rock (of change) - which is then an *unstoppable force* as it thunders down the mountainside, ~ scattering outworn thoughtforms in it's wake!

This concept must scare the pants off the 'Fools on the Hill', ~ they know only too well that we outnumber them in our many millions!

At present 'the Leaders' only have a semi-secure tenure / position of being guarded by their paid thugees, *but* ~ if the mindset of those guardians were to be 'modified' and a shift in consciousness gave rise to the guard's *enlightenment*, (and then a subsequent ditching of the fools they guard) then we would see a wonderful turnaround...
This has often occurred before, in other countries / times and climes, so is by no means an impossible dream.

++++++++++++++++++

Some may disparage the work done on places like Common Dreams, but I see it differently:
It is not nothing to help change the consciousness of humanity.
- Indeed, it is EVERYTHING!

If we, -through our writing (and other activities) successfully alter the way many of our fellow beings think, and help them to real-eyes that they have been duped by their leaders, then *we* have less work to do, = others will then play a greater part in the important revamping of our world...

The above may be poorly expressed, but I hope it makes some sort of sense?

Onwards and upwards dear Co-workers!
xx

"Buy some eyewash, Laura."

Sorry, Cindy. I'm an ophthalmologist. Upon careful examination I have found nothing physically wrong with the eyes. It's a dead brain. May I suggest sending the patient to the sanitarium at Crawford, Texas for brain surgery. There is 0.0000000001% chance of recovery.

Little Brother...you beat me to the punch. You are correct in saying, that if Laura can stand lecturing other nations in Human Rights abuses then she 'ought' be culpable in her direct and vocal associations of supporting her husbands abuses: what should be obvious abuses perpetrated by an administrations she would have intimate knowledge of...and then playing a direct vocal role in potentially diverting attention away from Bu$hCo Human Rights abuses to third parties..

Pac: How about some proper Musolini neckties for the entire Bushco junta? After a suitable public trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity that is...

Great submission Rebel:

Rebel said: "Everyone talks about "progressives" as if they know what that means. Could someone please explain it? This progressive web site seems to have a share of disgruntled and angry democrats, former angry "never again" democrats, former republicans and now converted socialists, leftists, a few libertarians and anarchists, some greens, some Naderites, etc. I'm trying to find a commonality, is it anger at the status quo? What are progressives trying to build on? Is it a movement in search of a voice? If so what is it saying?"

pac: I like what my Thesaurus says about progressives: It's anybody who's unhappy with the single CorpRepublicrat party.
Thesaurus
2 progressive views modern, liberal, advanced, forward-thinking, enlightened, enterprising, innovative, pioneering, dynamic, bold, avant-garde, reforming, reformist, radical; informal go-ahead. antonym conservative, reactionary. noun: he is very much a progressive innovator, reformer, reformist, liberal, libertarian.

We progressives should consider coalesing into the Green Party. No other issue besides the end of the war is going to pick up as much steam as Increasing temps and melting poles. Everybody with a thermometer on the porch knows it's getting worse, knows the gov is lying about the severity of it.

United we Stand.... Divided we fall.

Neocons are united in profit and war.

We need to be united in the breakup of these huge companies and redeployment of the military on a mission of stopping further emmissions into the atmosphere. These Pure Preditory Capitalists are not going to self-regulate themselves. As long as they bully congress and put puppets in the white house, all we are going to get is a fresh crop of crooks in gov every election.

In my view, things are so bad, we need to all drop our wish lists and focus on two demands:

Restoration of the Bill of Rights
Special paper ballot Recall Election of everybody in gov

Let legitimate democracy take it from there.

pac

pfutrell, Jesus is accused of using the power of Satan to cast out devils. So he says, it's well known that a house divided against itself must fall (in other words, a people that fights internally cannot survive). He is saying it's absurd that Satan should diminish his own power by casting out devils. So he says, if I use the power of Satan to cast out devils, who are your "children" (he means those among you who exorcise) using to cast them out? In other words, if I'm using Satan, aren't they doing the same? So we judge the Pharisees by their own exorcists. If they're not using the power of Satan, then I am not either, and you're just bullshitting.

HTH

Laura Bush not only commited vehicular homicide, she did it while drunk. And the young man she killed was her boyfriend. All documented in the George W. Bush biography 'Fortunate Son'. Read it.

Cindy: Reading your posts are informative and uplifting. without your well reasoned and emotion filled articles, there would be one fewer human face to this ongoing tragedy that is the Bush junta.

Power is ours... if we want to take it back.

Yeah, we want to take advice from Laura the woman who has such brilliant judgment she married an alcoholic war criminal who will turn out to be the worst president in the history of the nation.

Of course she committed vehicular homicide so she may be in the running for worst first lady.

Good one Cindy. But to her credit, I read in High Times that Laura used to sell pot.

BTW, are you supporting Gore for President?

rebelnow,

"I'm trying to find a commonality, is it anger at the status quo? What are progressives trying to build on? Is it a movement in search of a voice? If so what is it saying?"

seems to me this is like the time where we all realize the level of inhumanity has risen far beyond a tolerable or manageable level (I'm not saying we didn't see that years ago.) But it's peaking fast, it's beyond survival of the fittest because we are all in imminent and significant peril, no more than the least or strongest of us, and the powerful have us penned in and out weaponed.

The movement is, we realize we're not a "vox clamantes in deserto," but are in the presence of many human beings who share the same experiences and thoughts and visions, and for the time being that makes all the difference and probably will at some point in the future. It was no different when in the dust bowl a meal was made and you found comfort in the company of strangers and from there slowly you realized just what you had to do, but not until the moment revealed itself.

I think Cindy is testament to the idea that when the revealing moment arrives, we will be able to stand up and make our point and it will be irrefutable, owing to how we live, feel. and act. I mean, the quality of who we are that we have seen in these pages will overcome our adversities.

I'm not saying that it won't be painful, but who of us hasn't had pain or loss? For the time being I find solace in this site or sites like this. And of course in other activities that I do, and in the smallest of every day events.

Don't forget, Laura was a drug dealer before it was cool, and she supplied George and his friends back in the day. My gut feeling about her is that she's long been sleeping in another bedroom because she can't stand him. Her librarian knowledge of facts make no dent in his insane certainty that God wants him to torture people and destroy Iraq, Iran and America because God thinks oil is really important. I think she has nothing but contempt for him, but maybe I'm projecting.

Thanks Cee Miracles. The link that you provided is truly inspiring. I wish to look into it more.

Also, I do not understand Mathew. Can someone interpret this (included in a post above) for me?

[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

[27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Matt.12: 25-27

All of our "elected" are puppets of the corporations. Lara is making a feeble attempt to save the wepuck party. Not that it matters because they can just cheat again to win.
Instead of the corporations and oil companies being happy with a little-they want all of the spoils.
I am sick of hearing the corporate powers wine about the working class being responsible for everything.
Always a lot of blame and never solutions. I do not understand why the corporations do not say "there is no more profit because there is nothing left to steal.

Let me see.....according to the Rethuglicans, Ted Kennedy got away with murder and drowned his so-called girlfriend ("pregnant" according to the Rethugs), but no one is supposed to mention the fact that Laura Bush crashed into her ex-boyfriend's car with her car and killed him. Why is that? Don't you love how Democrats kowtow to Republicans all the time?! No wonder Rethuglicans are so spoiled.

It is not just Laura who is culpable, it is the American public. If we were really as decent as we pretend to be we'd be jamming the congressional emails and phone lines with demands that our civil rights be restored, legal immunity for torturers and war criminals be revoked, and the International Criminal Court be joined so Bush could be turned over for trial under an impartial, non-neocon-dominated judiciary. We'd take action against Chevron and boycott their products.

Everyone talks about "progressives" as if they know what that means. Could someone please explain it? This progressive web site seems to have a share of disgruntled and angry democrats, former angry "never again" democrats, former republicans and now converted socialists, leftists, a few libertarians and anarchists, some greens, some Naderites, etc.

I'm trying to find a commonality, is it anger at the status quo? What are progressives trying to build on? Is it a movement in search of a voice? If so what is it saying?

Sorry. CINDY was part of another sentence begun and not deleted. In other words, CINDY did not write the above post.

Again ... do yourselves a favor ...

So many people have had near-death experiences and when they emerge from them, their view of creation and the understanding of the Love and Benevolence and Power behind that creation, both within and without, is enormously expanded.

www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html

We are currently living in dinosaur-land in terms of the same-old, same-old approach to problems by those in official positions who are driven to covet and TAKE and at the same time are threatened by resistance: Attack and kill ... same-old/same-old, and then they point the finger to blame the other guy(s).

Part of the job of living, as I see it, is to expand our ways of looking at things, to develop independent thinking and not keep reacting to the same-old, same-old without being innovative in thinking and acting on our own or with others.

We have to decide ourselves what kind of world we want; how are we going to save it because it is in danger from the same-old, same-old.

We have to become our own leaders right where we are standing rather than look to those governing us who fall so short and so often seem ... most of them ... so incredibly stupid and incompetent.

Do yourself a favor ... read the above link.
It may just inspire you to think past what is such same-old, same-old.

Seems sort of pathetic that a few hundred ... tops 1,000 ... people in the world are able to control 6.3 billion of us. Don't you think?

CINDY

"So my question is….. who is this progressive, viable, realistic candidate for whom I should vote that is not a Democrat? And by that, I mean someone who has more than a snowball's chance in Hell of winning in 2008?"

This is setting the bar impossibly high for third parties. Progressives don't support the Greens, and then complain that they aren't viable.

To try to poke the speck out of our neighbor's eye...

It's surely a crime against humility to display halopated politicians. Perhaps Islam is correct about 'graven' images.

Cindy,

thanks for chastising me in regards to my comments about Laura, in certain respects that was uncalled for.

In the same light, Federalist Capers, although I completely disagree with your interpretation on the posts and have found a good deal of hopefulness in them, in the same light as what Cindy is suggesting to us, why don't you give us your informed opinion on the issue of hope?

Or did you not read the verse from Matthew? Maybe your strictly old testament?

The selective biblical literalists like those on enjoyethebible claim to believe that "The Bible by nature also possesses absolute and final authority". They haven't read much of it though. Matthew 25:31-46, if read with the literalism they demand, would have almost every American in hell.

If the blathering scattered whining on Common Dreams represents progressive America, waht hope is there?

None in the immediate future.

Word has it that Dennis Kucinich is the guest tonight on "The Colbert Report" on Comedy Central at 8:30 pm right after Jon Stewart.

Might be interesting to watch.

As to Cindy, Laura and Bible quoting, one of my favorites of J.C.'s was when he said, "What ever ye do to the least of my brethren, ye do it to me."

First of all, I like Dennis Kucinich and have endorsed him as the best Democrat out there (running fro president). Having said that, maybe you should ask Dennis why he endorses Nancy Pelosi who blocks impeachment, funds the war and gives Crazy George more power to spy on us. And what about Iran?

Cynthia McKinney may run and then she will get my endorsement and help.

I don't think we ever give up on impeachment and I will be in Congress for two weeks while BushCo are in power and I will introduce Articles of Impeachment against them everyday...and then work to impeach them post-office, which is possible if they take any kind of federal benefits.

I never said Laura was culpable in BushCo's crimes because she is related to him, but she lies for him all the time...she is a war supporter and if she cares about Burma (which we all should) then she would speak out against the atrocities of Iraq as we all should).

I also have heard lots about her killing her boyfriend and living in the Mayflower Hotel in DC separated from George (which I would give her a lot of credit for)...but I don't believe it is credible to attack people like they attack me. BushCo has enough policy problems without going after their private lives, which may or may not be true, anyway.

It is like the neocon Rove machine and I won't sink to those levels.

And it's not a "campaign" it's a CAMPAIGN! Get used to it.

Love
Cindy

LazLong, I take issue with your assertion that "Cindy Sheehan and the vast majority of posters on a purportedly progressive website" are "apparently agreeing that Laura Bush is culpable for her husband's crimes".

Cindy nowhere states or even implies "guilt by association". She is certainly addressing the ramifications of a First Lady speaking in a public capacity-- an "official" capacity that has come to exist without any formal authority or recognition-- to deplore and criticize human rights abuses in a faraway land when her criminal spouse and his partners in crime have resolutely institutionalized human rights abuses in the name of a fictitious Global War on Terror. The question of the culpability of supporting members of a criminal regime is a agonizingly difficult one, but profoundly important, and only rarely do Nurembergs or Reconciliation Commissions grasp the nettle. Instead, the perpetrators live out their lives with no public reckoning, and their roles become marrow for scholars inclined to crunch the juicy bones of history.

But Cindy isn't imposing collective guilt here at all; to paraphrase broadly, Cindy is walking up to Laura Bush, rapping her knuckles on the First Lady's vacuous head, and trying to determine if there's anything inside besides echoes. If the First Lady is purportedly charged to express policy or opinion, and is fit to do so, certainly she is fit to be taken to task for her appalling hypocrisy. I'd hardly classify her as an "innocent"; I don't believe that, say, Eleanor Roosevelt would meekly submit to hubby's marching orders to go out there and castigate Burma as if the US political warlords have the high moral ground.

It's true enough that being a demure shill for the administration is an unavoidable part of the job for modern First Ladies-- even the term is ooky-- but it's fair to criticize Laura's cognitive dissonance in deploring the bloody-handedness on the other side of the world while turning a blind eye to the home team's depredations. You could look it up.

Go Cindy! 8)

Matthew is the place to look, all right.

[25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
[27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Matt.12: 25-27

Dustinchicago, the tone of your inquiry is half of the problem that has put America in the droll slumber it is in. By this I mean we don't need people to 'listen' to Cindy to take a particular course of action. Following what she has to say like cattle. We need people to start thinking again. We need people to massage their noggin with thoughts and come to their OWN conclusions! Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what Cindy has to say and what she stands for. But the way I see it, she is most beneficial to our society when she stirs us to ponder a situation, sweeping the cobwebs from our brain and to think independently. I liken her writings to the actions of Paul Revere, riding through town calling "The British are coming, the British are coming" She is sounding the alert for us, waking us to threats around us. Now that we hear it, it is up to each of us to use our brain and decide what steps need to be undertaken. Once this has occurred we can reach a democratic consensus and undertake the "best" solution, not blindly follow whatever dumb cow is currently leading the herd over a proverbial cliff because we don't know any better.

Each and every one of us have a duty and responsibility to become informed of events around us. We owe it to ourselves, our country and our future.

Knowledge IS power folks!

**What do you think, Cindy, of Dennis Kucinich? Many people listen to you... maybe you can get them to listen to him. Or would talking about him hurt your "campaign"?

Rally Against War & Injustice

When: Friday, October 19, 2007, 5PM - 6PM
Where: Corner of Fifth & Liberty, Ann Arbor (In front of the Federal Building)
What: Join the folks who rally every weekday rush hour at this site to protest the war in Iraq. Committee to Defend Catherine Wilkerson signs and banner will be provided.

This Friday, the Committee to Defend Catherine Wilkerson is going back again to its anti-war roots. As you may know, Dr. Wilkerson is charged with two crimes for assisting to protester who was rendered unconscious by police at a protest against Ray Tanter. Last year, the American Movement for Israel invited Ray Tanter, PhD, to speak at the UM. In his 1998 book, Rogue Regimes, Tanter admitted to being an unindicted co-conspirator in the illegal Iran-Contra arms deal. In October, 2002, Tanter told the Michigan Daily that the coming US invasion of Iraq would be "an antidote" and that there would be no backlash. "Arab people won't go crazy, Muslim people won't go crazy. They'll roll over because they hate Saddam Hussein." Vanity Fair reported that in a speech in late 2005: "Tanter went as far as to suggest that the U.S. consider using tactical nuclear weapons against Iran." During his UM presentation last year, Tanter advocated reversing the State Department's designation of the Mujahedeen-e Khalq as a "foreign terrorist organization" so that they could receive funding to expand their terror campaign in Iran and bring about a "civil war."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Meet Dr. Wilkerson and Watch An Injury to One

When: Thursday, November 1, 2007, 6PM
Where: Downtown Latte (a free trade coffee house) located at 44 S. Saint Clair in downtown Toledo, OH
What: Meet Dr. Wilkerson and watch her son's award-winning, 53-minute, documentary film, An Injury to One

See Peter Rachleff's review of An Injury to One in the Monthly Review here.
From the First Run/Icarus films web site:

An Injury To One
A Film by Travis Wilkerson

AN INJURY TO ONE provides a corrective—and absolutely compelling—glimpse of a particularly volatile moment in early 20th century American labor history: the rise and fall of Butte, Montana. Specifically, it chronicles the mysterious death of Wobbly organizer Frank Little, a story whose grisly details have taken on a legendary status in the state. Much of the extant evidence is inscribed upon the landscape of Butte and its surroundings. Thus, a connection is drawn between the unsolved murder of Little, and the attempted murder of the town itself.

Butte's history was entirely shaped by its exploitation by the Anaconda Mining Company, which, at the height of WWI, produced ten percent of the world's copper from the town's depths. War profiteering and the company's extreme indifference to the safety of its employees (mortality rates in the mines were higher than in the trenches of Europe) led to Little's arrival. "The agitator" found in the desperate, agonized miners overwhelming support for his ideas, which included the abolishment of the wage system and the establishment of a socialist commonwealth.

In August 1917, Little was abducted by still-unknown assailants who hung him from a railroad bridge. Pinned to his chest was a note that read 3'-7'-77", dimensions of a Montana grave. Eight thousand people attended his funeral, the largest in Butte's history.

The murder provides AN INJURY TO ONE with a taut, suspenseful narrative, but it isn't the only story. Butte's history is bound with the entire history of the American left, the rise of McCarthyism, the destruction of the environment, and even the birth of the detective novel. Former Pinkerton detective Dashiell Hammett was rumored to have been involved in the murder, and later depicted it in Red Harvest.

Archival footage mixes with deftly deployed intertitles, while the lyrics to traditional mining songs are accompanied by music from William Oldham, Jim O'Rourke, and the band Low, producing an appropriately moody, effulgent, and strangely out-of-time soundtrack. The result is a unique film/video hybrid that combines painterly images, incisive writing, and a bold graphic sensibility to produce an articulate example of the aesthetic and political possibilities offered by filmmaking in the digital age.

"An astonishing document: part art and part speculative inquiry, buzzing with ambition and dedication. Takes us from the 19th century to the eve of the 21st, from Butte as land of frontier promise to Butte as land of death and environmental destruction. He wields avant-garde graphics and archival ephemera like a lasso, and his shots of modern-day Butte are allusive still-lifes that defy time and place. This is stirring, must-see stuff."—Austin Chronicle

"A deft, ambitious exercise in old-school socialist agitprop crafted with the precise mulitmedia flair of a corporate Powerpoint presentation, Travis Wilkerson's AN INJURY TO ONE retells the gritty class struggles of the previous century through smoothly contemporary digital means."—The Village Voice

"The most exciting documentary of the season. Passionate, persuasive, and beautifully designed, AN INJURY TO ONE is a model of coherent political filmmaking as convincing in its liberalism as its formalism."—The New York Sun

Mrs. Bush, like the silent good Americans, pays lip service to human suffering until it is a member of her immediate family.

When your neighbor does not have health care it is a shame; when you do not have health care it is a crisis.

When will we see that we are the other people?

Enlightened self-interest means that helping others is helping oneself.

bp63..laura takes another vacation in dubai with all the other elite royals,how pleasant....

Thank you Cindy. That was as coherent and peaceful as ever.

I am surprised to see both Cindy Sheehan and the vast majority of posters on a purportedly progressive website apparently agreeing that Laura Bush is culpable for her husband's crimes. I did not know that being a family member of a malefactor made one complicit in the malefactor's actions; however, I'll be sure to inform the Israeli army. I'm sure they'll be relieved to hear that the families of suicide bombers whom they've been punishing all these years actually did have it coming.

People, if we become angry and willing to hurt innocents just because it's a way to get to our enemies, we're no better than the people we fight. If we're going to fight for justice, we have to attack those who work injustice, and ONLY those. We can't go after their families, no matter who frustrated we get.

And as for you people suggesting Laura Bush murdered her ex with a car, stop it. YOu sound like the Republicans trying to smear the Clintons for Vince Foster's suicide. It's just as much of a red herring, and it's just as pathetic.

Looks like she is going.

"U.S.: First Lady To Visit Mideast
October 15, 2007 19 02 GMT

U.S. first lady Laura Bush will visit Kuwait during an Oct. 20-26 Mideast trip, the Kuwait News Agency reported Oct. 15. Bush also plans to visit the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Jordan to meet with officials, medical and educational leaders and leaders of women's groups, Bush's press secretary Sally McDonough said."

visit www.stratfor.com

dmia says "Stop griping about the Democrats" "they do offer something at least somewhat better than what we have been suffering under for the last 8 years". Wrong dmia! We were suffering more than 8 years. Under Clinton we got 'end of welfare as we know it' and the horror and job of NAFTA.

Just what are the Democrats offering? I only see more of the same. I suggest we vote independent. Look up Cindy Sheehan's web site at www.cindyforcongress.org and send her a few bucks.

I am surprised to see the story of sweet Laura running down the boy friend that dumped her. I thought only cops knew that story.

All relationships are 50/50. The fact Laura is still married to a War Criminal says it all about degrees of complicity. Alternatively it could be a pathological case of DENIAL...and that ain't the river in Egypt..

stop accusing the people...accuse the devil..but if we choose to become a 'volunteer'in (its) evil games-then we really have no one to blame BUT ourselves..

The other day I saw something interesting as a group of us were carpooling to work. A young man driving one of those hydraulically lifted Dodge Ram Superdiesel trucks had two rifles mounted on the back window, and (this is really what caught my eye) a Biblical passage painted on the truck's tail gate. On I-90, a truck driver (White Freightliner) not only had Biblical Scripture passages painted all over the cab, but also all over the box trailer! Is it now popular to paint Biblical passages on one's vehicle?? Has anyone else who posts on CD seen something like that?

"Birds of a feather flock together".... Dear Laura would be as dimwitted, ignorant of other peoples sorry plight and fundamentalist racist in her views; as her nitwit psychopath spouse 'bush the inferior'.... As for her understanding over 1 million Iraqi civilians have been murdered...spousal attribution bias would have her believe ignorantly 'little georgy' told her that was discredited an' all..so don't you worry your 'pretty little head' about what those mischievous progressives banter about...

For "justice" who posted first with a biblical quote and an admonition:

"Look up II Timothy 2:15 Then go to http://www.enjoythebible.org and start rightly dividing God's word. Start handling the Bible properly as God intended to be handled."

A relevant link from www.peerservice.org [check it out ... and also below]

Thomas Mellon's experience speaks to us now: www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html

... and CINDY ... you are hitting the mark more and more. TRUTH has a way of doing that.

miracle

The IMF told the Burmese government that they had to stop subsidizing fuel and other items as part of a new loan package.

The government did what they were told.

Critizing Chevron alone is just misunderstanding the issue.
IMF seems to be slipping through this unnoticed.

dear ms.sheehan,with all due respect...how can you participate in an election...when those same powers you are so eager to join,have not satisfied the will of the people(impeachment)??i would think that your conscience would strain under the weight..impeach first...and as one of my fellow posters put it so aptly"ELECTION IS NOT IMPEACHMENT !"

laura bush is not blind,she is a partner in crime and pathetically over-medicated.i do not have to strain one bit to surmise that the smell of the illuminati is all over the monks of burma..the same overpowering smell that is in iraq and afganistan.the united states has a long and committed mission to wiping out the buddist(they were the faction,geniocided in vietnam)as the buddist doctrine of love,compassion and non-violence is the purist threat to any evil new world order.it is just one big shame that when george started his murderous run,the dalai llama not only didnt step up to the plate-HE THREW the game..guess they must have appointed the wrong incarnate,as leader..just like the whole rest of the world.jesus got so villified by the christian right in america,that he is went camping with buddha......

Laura Bush probably really does feel for the people of Burma but, as Cindy is saying, she just doesn't see the blatant hypocracy of her husbands massive murder of thousands. It shows the deep psychological disconnect that exists in the minds of these Jesus freaks. Dangerous people, them Bushies and Chaneys.

dmia,

Thanks (again) for defending the mainstream of liberals who actually reside in the Democratic party. You're right that they are the achievable alternative to the next 8 years being just like the last 7.

The story of Laura Bush's accident on a country road that killed a former boyfriend..is quite interesting. I consider anyone that supports the wars to be an accomplice to murder..she's got more blood on her hands than I can imagine.

"If you want that to happen, you'd better vote for someone other than the Democrats."

Here we go again, griping about the Democrats. My elementary school teacher told my class that if you're going to gripe about something in one breath, in your next breath you better provide a suggestion as to how to improve the situation. And during my lifetime I've found that to be true - it's easy to bitch but it's harder to fix.

No, the Democrats are not perfect. They do however offer something at least somewhat better than what we've been suffocating under for the last 8 years.

So my question is..... who is this progressive, viable, realistic candidate for whom I should vote that is not a Democrat? And by that, I mean someone who has more than a snowball's chance in Hell of winning in 2008?

I don't regret that Mrs. Bush is not usually vocal about the many problems around the world. If she actually had the habit of publicly weighing in more often on world affairs, many Republicans would assume her qualified to be the next President, and would start the Draft Laura movement to run her against the other Mrs. (Mrs. Clinton.)

Even now, the idea of a big surprise with Mrs. Bush being drafted in the race at a very, very, late date is still conceivable, even if it seems remote. The more we hear her speak out on anything larger than library advocacy, the more we should listen and be wary of the one who is said to be "the most popular Republican in America".

Don't worry, there will be another election. Every picture of Bush these days screams that he's sick of this job and wants to quit. Even with his month long 'vacations', this is still the hardest he's ever worked at a job in his life.

And also, Bush has no fear whatsoever of being held accountable for his actions by a following administration. Consider these facts ...

-- The Democrat leadership in Congress is actively blocking attempts to impeach Bush today.
-- The Clinton White House already established the track record of Democrats saying they want to 'look to the future' and not following up on crimes of their predecessors. There is nothing that Hillary has said in the last 15 years that makes anyone think she disagrees with this.
-- In fact, you hear absolutely nothing from any of the top Democratic contenders about any sorts of trials or prosecutions of this administration.
-- The Democratic Congress has a proven track record in this term of passing bills to retroactively make legal the illegal actions of this administration.

So, there would seem to be no threat whatsoever of a Democrat administration doing anything to hold Bush accountable for his actions. If you want that to happen, you'd better vote for someone other than the Democrats.

what, have elections been taken off the table now too? or are they under the table?? where's that Belecosi lady we hired fer the job? whatever.

we should know that whom one has murdered or not murdered or how many is simply not discussed in polite society. you know, comme ils faut and what not. so come on in and snag yourself some beer and pretzels!

ok, no more posts here. the subject is too rife.

The Geneva Convention defines torture as ANY means of compelling the prisoner, so the case is pretty much open and shut as to war crimes. What is in doubt is if Bush 43 will allow the next election to put him in the position of being accountable for his actions.

(IE: will he ALLOW another election.)

"Story has it, it was also the lovely Laura who did in an old flame one night at an intersection on the quiet back country roads of rural texas. the most popular boy in town, I think it was. She has much inward looking to do I think."

My, that's something that was conveniently swept under tha carpet of public scrutiny. I have never heard that our first "lady" was a cold-blooded killer. Hmmm.

Adds just a tad more light on her sequestered status. Of course, it could just be that the "good christian woman" that she perceives herself to be is quietly kept in that "place" like her hubby's mom. (Barabara spoke out once against the gov't's role in the aborthion debate while "poppy" was in office... She was quickly silenced.) Guess they probably aren't willing to take any chances with Laura since she shows signs of having intellect beyond that of her superior male partner.

I'm certain every word that falls from her lying lips are carefully scripted, like her husband's false words. I think she's just a better actress than dumb-nuts.

the old cliche goes, er, behind every good woman there's a, no, behind every good man, no, well there's always a woman and a man getting fooled or something like that. It's Genesis 3:1 I think.

Recognize it - aside from all the blather that goes on about Laura Bush - the fact is simlple: She's an enabler!!! She's a fundamental part of the destruction of nations and of our constitutional heritage, and the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children. Let that enabler try to cleanse her hands of the blood that accummulates on them each each day she tries to be nice.

Was she up for manslaughter as a teenager?

she has the afflictions of Lady Macbeth.

Canst thou not minister to a mind diseas'd,
Pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow,
Raze out the written troubles of the brain,
And with some sweet oblivious antidote
Cleanse the stuff'd bosom of that perilous stuff
Which weighs upon the heart?

Story has it, it was also the lovely Laura who did in an old flame one night at an intersection on the quiet back country roads of rural texas. the most popular boy in town, I think it was. She has much inward looking to do I think.

Where are our monks?

Nice article Cindy.

For those who don't want to look it up:

M-7:3
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
====================

"He shall proclaim the norm,
lovely in its beginning,
lovely in its middle, and
lovely in the end thereof."

Gautama Buddha speaking about the World Teacher

It seems, thanks to your compilation of grievances Ms. Sheehan, that Laura Bush is either not paying attention to the rest of the world or is just plain oblivious to the suffering her spouse has inflicted on the rest of the planet. Not even in her own front yard, so to speak. or, perhaps, she is really just as power-hungry as her husband, and just as stupid.

I have to agree with you. I don't wonder where it came from, lest we forget that her mother-in-law has one of those "beautiful minds" that doesn't warrant looking beyond the magic mirror on the wall ~ which appears to be a family trait.

Having had several fundamentalist religions crammed down my throat in my formulative years, I came to recognize that the most voracious belief going for most of the fundamentalists is that in their passionate enthusiasm for making others convert to their cause and living within the confines of their passion ~ they are absolved from anything akin to breaking any human laws because their god would be pleased that they "saved" some poor slobs that were outside their faith. And then they assume the role of enforcers of the practicum in order to preserve their power over the converts' lives so they won't "fail" or whatever.

Another problem is the way in which these "passionates" assess merit ~ George nominates a cabinet member or justice of the court who has no credibility for the position yet he/she "deserves" to be accepted by the attending Congressional Committee, inorder to send them to the general assembly for an up or down vote, which he has already secured victory, simply because he/she was nominated by George, the emperor and gods' buddy.

"Because I said so" rationale for such important placement is entirely inappropriate and foolhardy at best.

The Bush conglomerate seems to think that if they don't look at something, it isn't there, and god will keep them safe from having to turn their gaze toward anything that isn't part of their "beautiful plans".

Cindy is obviously correct, and how refreshing it would be to have someone in Congress who actually has the courage to tell truth to power.

Most Americans are tragically ignorant of their country's continuing inhumanity toward those in the Middle East. If any other country had done to Iraq what we have done, we would be demanding international justice for the perpetrators, but when the perpetrators reside in the White House we hide our faces, play dumb, and go about our merry way as more and more innocents are killed in the name of freedom and democracy. this war is about oil and US imperialism - nothing more - and we are the criminals - regardless of what we might think of the Iraqis.

Look up II Timothy 2:15 Then go to http://www.enjoythebible.org and start rightly dividing God's word. Start handling the Bible properly as God intended to be handled.