Guns Take Pride of Place in US Family Values
Shirley Katz is not afraid to fight for her rights. Last week the schoolteacher, 44, went to court in her home town of Medford, Oregon, to protest at her working conditions. Specifically she is outraged she cannot carry a handgun into class. 'I know it is my right to carry that gun,' she said.
Katz was in court in the week that someone else took a gun to school in America. This time it was a pupil in Cleveland, Ohio. Asa Coon, 14, walked the corridors of his school, a gun in each hand, shooting two teachers and two students. Then he killed himself. Coon's attempted massacre made headlines. But a more bloody rampage, the murder of six young partygoers by Tyler Peterson, a policeman in Crandon, Wisconsin, got less attention, even in the New York Times - America's newspaper of record - which buried it deep inside the paper.
Guns, and the violence their possessors inflict, have never been more prevalent in America. Gun crime has risen steeply over the past three years. Despite the fact groups such as the National Rifle Association (NRA) consistently claim they are being victimised, there have probably never been so many guns or gun-owners in America - although no one can be sure, as no one keeps a reliable account. One federal study estimated there were 215 million guns, with about half of all US households owning one. Such a staggering number makes America's gun culture thoroughly mainstream.
An average of almost eight people aged under 19 are shot dead in America every day. In 2005 there were more than 14,000 gun murders in the US - with 400 of the victims children. There are 16,000 suicides by firearm and 650 fatal accidents in an average year. Since the killing of John F Kennedy in 1963, more Americans have died by American gunfire than perished on foreign battlefields in the whole of the 20th century.
Studies show that having a gun at home makes it six times more likely that an abused woman will be murdered. A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack. Yet despite those figures US gun culture is not retreating. It is growing. Take Katz's case in Oregon. She brought her cause to court under a state law that gives licensed gun-owners the right to bring a firearm to work: her school is her workplace. Such a debate would have been unthinkable a few decades ago. Now it is the battleground. 'Who would have thought a few years ago, we would even be having this conversation? But this won't stop here,' said Professor Brian Anse Patrick of the University of Toledo in Ohio. Needless to say, last week the judge sided with Katz and she won the first round of her case.
It is a nation awash with guns, from the suburbs to the inner cities and from the Midwest's farms to Manhattan's mansions. Gun-owning groups have been so successful in their cause that it no longer even seems strange to many Americans that Katz should want to go into an English class armed. 'They have made what was once unthinkable thinkable,' said Patrick, a liberal academic. He should know. He owns a gun himself. Even the US critics of gun culture are armed.
To look at the photographs in Kyle Cassidy's book Armed America is to glimpse a surreal world. Or at least it seems that way to many non-Americans. Cassidy spent two years taking portrait shots of gun owners and their weapons across the US.
The result is a disturbing tableau of happy families, often with pets and toddlers, posing with pistols, assault rifles and the sort of heavy machine-guns usually associated with a warzone. 'By the end I had seen so many guns and I knew so much about guns that it no longer seemed unusual,' Cassidy said. He keeps his in a gun safe in his home in Philadelphia. 'This turned into a project not about guns but about a diverse group of people,' he said.
At the cutting edge of weapon culture remains the gun lobby and its most vocal advocate, the NRA. Founded in the 19th century by ex-Civil War army officers dismayed at their troops' lack of marksmanship, the NRA has transformed into the most effective lobbying group in Washington DC. It has scores of lobbyists, millions of dollars in funds and more than three million members. It is highly organised and its huge membership is highly motivated and activist. They can have a huge influence on politics.
In 2000 Vice-President Al Gore supported stricter background checks for gun-buyers and the NRA organised against him, describing the election as the most important since the Civil War. It spent $20m against Gore in an election ending in a razor's edge result. Its influence was especially felt in Gore's home state of Tennessee, which he narrowly lost to NRA gloating. 'Their vote can select the President. They don't get to pick who goes to the White House. But they can tip the balance,' said Patrick.
Democrats have learnt that lesson now. Many shy away from gun control issues, wary of taking on such a vociferous lobby group. In the 2006 mid-term elections the NRA was able to back a historically high 58 Democrats running for office. Every one of them went on to win. Such influence over the past three decades has seen the NRA fight a successful campaign against new gun laws. It has in fact loosened regulations, spreading the ability to legally carry concealed weapons across 39 states. And this has all been done in the face of a fight from anti-gun groups, backed by much of the mainstream media. 'Politicians are so afraid of the gun lobby. They run scared of it,' said Joan Burbick, author of the book Gun Show Nation
But the key question is not about the number of guns in America; it is about why people are armed. For many gun-owners, and a few sociologists, the reason lies in America's past. The frontier society, they say, was populated by gun-wielding settlers who used weapons to feed their families and ward off hostile bandits and Indians. America was thus born with a gun in its hand. Unfortunately much of this history is simply myth. The vast majority of settlers were farmers, not fighters. The task of killing Indians was left to the military and - most effectively - European diseases. Guns in colonial times were much rarer than often thought, not least because they were so expensive that few settlers could afford them. Indeed one study of early gun homicides showed that a musket was as likely to be used as club to beat someone to death as actually fired.
But many Americans believe the myth. The role of the gun is now enshrined in mass popular culture and has huge patriotic significance. Hence the fact that gun ownership is still a constitutional right, in case America is ever invaded and needs to form a popular militia (as hard as that event might be to imagine). It also explains why guns are so prevalent in Hollywood. Currently playing in US cinemas is the Jodie Foster film The Brave One, a classic vigilante movie of the wronged woman turning to the power of the pistol to murder the criminals who killed her boyfriend. Foster's character is played as undeniably heroic. 'There is a fascination with guns in our culture. All you need to make a movie is a girl and a gun,' said Cassidy.
But this worship of the gun in many ways springs from economics and social problems, not the historic frontier. It took mass production and mass marketing to really popularise firearms. The Civil War saw mass arms manufacturing explode in America, including making 200,000 Colt .44 pistols alone. It saw guns become familiar and cheaper for millions of Americans. The later 19th century saw gun companies using marketing techniques to sell their weapons, often invoking invented frontier imagery to do so. That carries on today. There are more than 2,000 gun shows each year, selling hundreds of thousands of guns. It is big business and business needs to sell more and more guns to keep itself profitable. 'They will do anything to sell guns,' said Burbick.
But there are deeper issues at work too. The gun lobby's main argument is that guns protect their owners. They deter criminals and attackers whom - the gun lobby points out helpfully - are often armed themselves. Some surveys estimate there are more than two million 'defensive' uses of firearms each year. But others say that this argument is a shield, using guns as a way of deflecting harder arguments about how crime is caused by economics, poverty and racism. 'The argument over guns redefines a lot of social issues as simple aspects of crime,' said Burbick. She argues that a way to make Americans feel safer from crime is not to arm them with guns but to tackle the causes of crime: urban poverty, joblessness, drug addiction and racial divisions. 'We have to take back the language of human security. To talk about solving those social issues in terms of safety, not just letting the gun lobby control that language,' she said.
It is a powerful argument. Critics of America's gun culture often point to other nations with high levels of gun ownership - such as Canada and Switzerland - but much lower levels of violent crime. The fact is that America itself is equally divided. Patrick lives in a quiet, rural part of Michigan just across the state line from Ohio and the town of Toledo where he works. 'I would be amazed if anyone within four miles of me did not have a gun,' he said 'But our homicide rate is zero.'
Then look at where Cassidy lives. He has an apartment in Philadelphia, a city that is just as flooded with guns as Patrick's rural idyll, but also suffers from inner-city social ills. It has a stratospheric murder rate. 'There is a murder here every day. This is something that America has to come to terms with,' he said. Yet the differences do not lie with the simple existence of guns. Both places are full of them. They lie with the root causes of crime and violence, such as poverty and drugs, that blight many big cities. Guns seem neither to be totally the problem and certainly not the solution.
However, that is a debate few in America are having. In the meantime, the gun culture is so firmly entrenched and society so full of guns that there is little prospect of it retreating. Even those who advocate much tighter laws have long accepted defeat of the ideal of creating a society where guns are rare in public life, or even completely absent. 'That notion is absurd. There is no way to de-gun America,' said Patrick.
To cap a grim week, as Katz was winning her court battle in Oregon police in Pennsylvania were giving details of a raid on the home of a teenager who was plotting to attack a school. They found seven home-made grenades and an assault rifle. His mother had bought it for him at a gun show. The boy was just 14.
America's worst shooting sprees
Virginia Tech
Seung-Hui Cho a Korean American, was a loner who scared classmates. In April he killed 32 students and staff, then himself, at Virginia Tech, the worst US school shooting.
Amish killings
On a Monday morning in October 2006, truck driver Charles Roberts opened fire in a school in Paradise, Pennsylvania. He killed five children, then shot himself.
Columbine
Colorado misfits Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris assaulted their high school, Columbine, in April 1999, killing 12 students and a teacher. They then committed suicide.
Luby's massacre
In October, 1991 George Hennard drove a truck into Luby's Cafe in Killeen, Texas, shot dead 23 people and injured another 20 before shooting himself.
'Going postal'
Patrick Sherrill, an Oklahoma postal employee, took a gun to work in August 1986, shot 14 staff, then killed himself.
McDonald's massacre
In January 1984 in San Ysidro, California, James Huberty killed 21 with an Uzi and other guns at a McDonald's. He was killed by a Swat sniper.
Texas tower shooting
In 1966 Charles Whitman murdered his wife and mother, then climbed a University of Texas observation tower in Austin. He shot and killed 14 people before police shot him.
© Guardian News and Media Limited 2007
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76 Comments so far
Show AllItem #1 - There has been not ONE scientifically valid and reliable study done that proves even a medium correlation between increased gun control laws, and reduced crime. In fact, all the studies I know of show either a null effect or show a slight correlation towards less gun restrictions reducing crime.
Item #2 - The article above indirectly references certain Kellerman studies as well as the book:Arming America, both of which were shown to be completely worthless trash. Hell, the Kellerman one's easy to nullify from here, seeing as he didn't check to see if there was a difference in deaths between legal gun owners and gangbangers, which there most certainly is.
Item #3 - The urban black community in the US commits violence at a rate over 3 times what their percentage of population comprises of. Moreover, their victimization rate is about the same, thus generally proving that it's not a faulty justice system that is causing the disparity(Unless you believe that black victims accuse other blacks to shield their white attackers). It has been that way pretty much ever since after MLK died and Johnson introduced his Great Society and the civic black leaders turned from solving problems and trying to advance themselves not at the expense of others, to putting the blame for everything on whitey.
Item #4 - If you have even a quarter decent machine shop you can turn out a mediocre full auto subgun, sort of like the MP44, within a couple of hours. More if you have several people working at a time. Thus, even if all the current guns out there were to mysteriously vanish, the black market would quickly supply new resources. Anybody who believes otherwise obviously slept through US History when they were going through 1900-1930.
Item #5 - In point of fact, if you just look at white violence rates, we're only a little bit higher than the bloody UK, and in some categories far below. *cough*occupied home invasions*cough*
Item #6 - The only reason New York doesn't have a much higher murder rate is not because of it's gun laws, but because it has the highest amount of police per capita of any major city in the US.
Item #7 - The current supreme court case, Parker v DC, will at the very least if it reaffirms the individual rights view if the 2nd amendment(which is the only rational view to take of it unless you fail at English grammar) most likely void many federal level gun laws as they become subsequently challenged in court. And it will severely reduce the BATFE's power structure.
Currently listening to - Stand my Ground, Within Temptation
Dear WmC
Yes. You did clarify there was a difference. And you did clarify that you believe me to be a "gun hugger".Even tho' I never said anything that would imply that I , "deny the obvious reality about the dangers guns pose in and to a civilized society..."
I would only add that a civilized society, "is based on oppression abroad and repression at home." Civilization is not all the good stuffI was brought up to believe it is. But that's a totally different topic. (?) I agree that we are in an addicts bind as a society. Yes.
You asked:
"Do you think it's merely a coincidence that we are only developed country with the death penalty, the highest rates of incarceration in the developed world, the only country to allow concealed weapons to be carried among the citizenry, the highest rates–by far–of gun violence, and a foreign policy that's based primarily on military force? Or do you think the phenomena are related and all part of the same pathology?"
No. It is no coincidence that we are the only "developed" (what are we developing?),I would rather use industrialized, country with the death penalty. We worship death as a culture. Literally. As has been mentioned up thread. "Repression at home".
Highest rates of encarceration in the "deveploped" world? No. No coincidence. The prison industrial(there's that word again) complex is huge business. Halliburton anyone? Repression at home.
Only industrialized country to allow CCW? No. No coincidence again. We love our ability to dominate, oppress, repress, and kill. That's how we got to be who we are. Where we are. We stole it at gun point.
Highest rates of gun violence? No. No doubt ther is no coincidence. It is our culture. We are insane. This is my belief. I'd love to discuss if any and/or what ways civilization demonstrates any semblance of sanity. Anyone?
Foreign policy...? "Oppression abroad".
Definitely all the same sickness. Same pathology. maybe I would call it "civilization huggers".
Thank you
-Glen
A minor correction, punkass, I was careful to distinguish between gun owners and gun-huggers, who are irrationally, emotionally and almost religiously tied to their weapons and who refuse to admit that they pose any danger to society. The same way I distinguish between social drinkers and alcoholics.
But I also meant the concept of addiction to apply to US society in general and to its policy makers. Do you think it's merely a coincidence that we are only developed country with the death penalty, the highest rates of incarceration in the developed world, the only country to allow concealed weapons to be carried among the citizenry, the highest rates--by far--of gun violence, and a foreign policy that's based primarily on military force? Or do you think the phenomena are related and all part of the same pathology?
Sorry WmC....
Dislexia I guess...
Dear WcM-
You said:
"The problem here is not generating effective solutions. The real problem the addict's refusal to acknowledge he HAS a problem, whether in reference to drugs, alcohol, gambling, fossil fuels, or guns. Once that self-awareness dawns, progress can occur."
Obviously there is truth in this statement. Being a recovered alcoholic/drug addict (15 years sept 28th), believe me I know. However, I just purchased my first firearm ever 2 months ago. I'd hardly call myself addicted to guns. I think one of the problems in our discourse thusfar is that we are apparently talking about a couple of different ones - problems. I know there are gun addicts -My father in-law, the right-wing evangelical christian whose wife bought him a new gun for christmas to add to his collection for instance? Hello? Picture this: 50 something white male strutting around in front of the x-mas tree, fondling his new weapon like a giddy little boy.....what would jesus do?
So yes. They are out there. But I will continue with your addict comparison. Your reasoning suggests that all gun owners are the problem.Or at least, your previous tone had some emotion behind it to appear that that is what you were saying. This would be very much like saying all drinkers are alcoholics. Or all pot smokers are drug addicts. Look, more folks die from alcohol related stuff in America than guns. Or what about smoking? Or Automobiles? Or?......
Now I'm not trying to minimalize. There is definitely a violence problem in our culture. But, to chalk up everyone who owns a gun as the problem so simply, just isn't very reasonable. Your solution seems to be aimed at helping everyone to give up their gun addiction, which I'm sure many could benefit from....but not everybody needs this solution. Just like all drinkers don't need to go to Alcoholics Anonymous all gun owners are not the rabid macho paranoid blood-thirsty killers you seem to be painting them as.
I am not one of these people. And to stereo-type, which many have done in this thread (and which I'm not immune from doing...)is the very same type of bigotry that we accuse the not-so-progressives of doing all the time. I think we all can do better in regards to this.
Now to the problem(s) I was asking for a solution to: Blackwater,police state,surveillance, patriot act, fascism.
I guess it would help if we all understood what each other was talking about. Me being a new, first time gun owner in my 40 years of life, obviously could not see that you would see me as addicted to guns. How could I? And so the "solution" quitting my gun addiction went right by me. Conversly, I was talking about resistance. Or perhaps" Resistance! Two different conversations (or more)in the same thread....no wonder it was "incoherent". We're all just talking, and few of us are listening. Or hearing.
Hopefully, we are able to see each others point (all of us), to where we can identify what each other is saying, what our concerns are, that it's not quite as simple as a "just do this one thing and it'll will all be okay"...type of reasoning, and hopefully have compassion for each other, no matter how absurd some of us can be.
I am a gun owner. Not because some piece of paper says that I can, but because I'm afraid of the fascism that is here, right now, and is gaining strength. I am kinda hoping that we have learned what happens when people don't fight fascism. Can you say "good americans"?If we don't think it's here....now who's in denial?
Thank you for your willingness to take the tone of this discussion down to a more civil tone. Appreciated.
-Glen
Dear mtruth-
Not that I think there should be guns in school, but I did want to address what you said here:
"Are you people hearing this discussion? Are human beings ACTUALLY this stupid?"
I wouldn't say stupid neccessarily.Insane would be more realistic. We are all crazy. Period. Any culture that is based on continiual growth, and that will collapse without it, and that refuses to talk about it, is fricken nutso. The exploitation of the natural world will end, one way or the other. In this case, I believe that insanity can be the only reaction. Yes it's crazy that we would be talking about guns in schools. It's crazy that we would have to debate climate change, or peak oil (gee- what can substitute for oil in order that we may continue raping the planet?), or mass extinction. It's a crazy old world...
Thank you,
Glen
punkassbeeotch 12:38 pm
"You still have not offered any solution. You still have not answered my questions."
Thank you for asking, punkass. There are any number of possible solutions that have worked very effectively in every other developed nation in the world. In Australia and Great Britain, for example, gun buy backs have cut the gun violence rates along with strict controls on hand guns.
Or, Gun Violence: the Real Costs by Philip J. Cook & Jens Ludwig offer a number of solutions, many of which involve attaching the social cost or externalities generated by the gun industry to the purchase price of firearms.
Or, go to http://www.bradycampaign.org/ which recommends such things as background checks, limiting purchases to one a month, eliminating the gun show loop hole. Or,the legislation just passed in California, making it easier to track weapons used in crimes.
The problem here is not generating effective solutions. The real problem the addict's refusal to acknowledge he HAS a problem, whether in reference to drugs, alcohol, gambling, fossil fuels, or guns. Once that self-awareness dawns, progress can occur.
All school shootings and massacres carried out by males. Can we talk about this? ...Or is it just a coincidence? (of course it isn't, and we all know it)
Having a gun is all about power and control. Given history and the state of the world, men sure do have control issues. Religion and violence. Great trends that are all about power. The need and presence of these two things need to vanish before any change is possible. Before genuine peace can occur. Is it too late? Probably- but at least we could do is be honest about what is going on.
Guns in schools? Are you people hearing this discussion? Are human beings ACTUALLY this stupid?... What a shame. It is the constitution of the United States of America, it must be legitimate. Give me a break.
As for guns in schools… Well, I happen to consider myself sane so I won't even address that one.
You might want to Google the words "Appalachian School of Law shooting" to see how guns in schools save lives. I doubt you have read about this in the media, since the MSM do not allow stories that potray guns or CCW permit holders in a positive light...
We carry all the guns. Our government is the world's #1 arms dealer. American culture worships guns and violent culture. Just watch the evening news. Americans kneel before executed figures every Sunday (u know what I'm talking about). Killing is part of our wretched culture. Not just gun control, but we also need to relieve poverty, domestic abuse, mental illness and so on in order to get at the root of the problem.
As for guns in schools... Well, I happen to consider myself sane so I won't even address that one.
What a completely crazy and biased article. And don't even get me started on some of these comments. C'mon people, owning a gun is a constitutionally protected right in this country and should be. I'm as liberal as they come, but I still own several guns and hunt deer, elk and birds.
The author of this article accuses the gun lobby of using their defense of our right to be armed as a "shield" to deflect other arguments about economic, poverty and racism. But nowhere in his article do I hear these points addressed. All he does is attack gun ownership. Perhaps he's using the anti-gun rhetoric as his "shield" to avoid those same issues (i.e. if there were no guns, everything would be great, and the world would be full of brotherly love).
I don't agree with conservatives on many issues, but on this one the liberal community has it exactly backwards.
And, for Turce, since you're so against the "murder" of innocent animals in hunting, you'd better hope that you're a vegan who never uses animal byproducts. 'Cause if you're not, you're just a giant hypocrite.
Dear WmC-
You're pretty funny.
You said:
"There's not a single, coherent, logical point made by either of you."
Speaking only for me,
I addressed you specifically:
"While your stats are correct, I am unsure how these insults can be construed as constructive. Yes, we're fucked. We're caught between fascism and…well, fascism. What's the solution? Characterizing all gun owners as rabid fanatical less-than-human psychopaths?"
You still have not offered any solution. You still have not answered my questions.
What part of this do you not understand? It seems fairly coherent to me. Are you even reading peoples posts? or are you emotionally knee jerking your responses into a kinda catch-all the people with guns and yell at them syle? Can we have intelligent discourse? If there is not "a single, coherent, logical point made" in any af my statements, how ever are you able to respond?
I have not raised my voice nor have I tried to insult or belittle. Not bad for a gun owner huh? And how is the voice from the pacifistic side sounding?
Thank You
-Glen
I first thought I shouldn't comment on this but I will. Paul Bramshire is correct. This is the time for a Militia in our country. Reagan and Bush Sr. have done away with the right to have one though. This weighs on my mind daily with the news. I think schools should start dealing with anger and control issues, ways for Kids to help adults, and ways to influence your surroundings in a positive way. These thing would be easy to implement in a school setting with a little thought behind the lesson plan. Math will get you far in school but if you don't use it you lose it , but, anger management would be used everyday. If you want to give up your rights, join a church or be like the Native American fella in a Brave New World. Education will be the end of our crime rate. Compare the countries mentioned in the article with the lower crime rates and their educational level. They pass us big time.
I don't see a need to own a gun, I will try to preserve the right though. If you go into bear country you should have a gun. If you have a gun you will want to shoot it. Go to bear country and attach a bear or leave it in your gun safe. Gun safes should be law. That is a good gun control law.
I am getting more and more offended reading this.
Look folks, I grew up on a farm. I carried a .22 out there, and do once again, many years later. In between... I have carried a few others. I carried a 9mm as a UN police observer in Kosovo and Bosnia.
I saw a few things there that will keep a gun in my closet or truck from here forward. The point however, is why, considering I am a law-abiding citizen should I be punished for having done nothing. If the logic that I should have my gun taken because "he might use it" is applied here... what next? Look, I own guns. I have and will take a deer or elk here or there (no trophy mounting either), I will go out and target shoot sometimes, and most of all... I will defend human life when necessary.
If someone thinks I am going to shoot my wife or neighbor just because other people have, they can come and sit down and explain why to me. If that is the case, they better take all the kitchen knives, axes, shovels, or perhaps just straight jacket me. You can't punish an innocent person for a crime they "might" commit.
"Absolutely no guns at home. Only military and police can carry guns. Period."
Welcome to Nazi Germany. SOME of us are worried about a totalitarian police state, I suppose, while other embrace the idea.
Hold on, I think GW wants to weigh in on this;
"Guns don't.....peop..., people kill...., guns...guns don't people, people kill guns!"
Dear WmC You said:
"A gun-hugger, in other words, would be an individual such as yourself."
Ha Ha Ha. Wow. Looks like I touched nerve.
Not at all, Punkass, you (and starislon2) prove my point precisely: There's not a single, coherent, logical point made by either of you. The fact that you and he (or she) can see the "logic" in each other's non-sequiturs merely provides confirmation.
If you're really looking for humor, check out starislon's latest ramblings at 4:23 pm, where s(he) tries to argue that facts and statistics really don't matter and don't reflect reality or reveal anything. Taking a page from Colbert. Now THAT's funny.
#
Bolondvero October 15th, 2007 6:02 pm
Absolutely no guns at home. Only military and police can carry guns. Period.
You know, that is EXACTLY what the Burmese junta thinks. That is also what the Chinese government thought after Tianmen Square. I hope you are not proud of the company you keep.
Guns keep us free, period. For those of you who say "put your rifle up against the US Military or Blackwater", I say that is what the Iraqis are doing today. And, they are winning. The difference here is that three quarters of the military would shoot their officers before they turned their guns on Americans.
Someone else also mentioned the 15K suicides a year with guns. Please put that in context. Are you arguing that NO guns = NO suicide? According to that logic, Japan would have a ZERO suicide rate. Yet, twice as many Japanese as Americans a year whack themselves, and they have less than half our population. People who want to off themselves will.
Dear godlessrant-
Thanks for the understanding. You said:
"America is a violent country and not because of it's gun ownership, but many many factors."
It's almost as tho' everyone has forgotten "Bowling For Columbine". Really, from a country saturated with guns, to video games, to movies, Michael Moore does a fairly decent job at debunking these "reasons" for the excess of gun violence in the US of A. I almost expect someone to blame it all on Heavy Metal or some such nonsense the way some of this vitriol is going.
Not that we quite understand all the reasons for our apparent violence. But I don't believe shouting at each other is leading towards understanding either. In my world, shouting is a precurser to violence.
Thank You.
-Glen
""Absolutely no guns at home. Only military and police can carry guns. Period.""
i certainly hope that's sarcasm. otherwise a nice stay in Myanmar might change your mind
Thanks Glen, great post. All this stuff calling gun owners psychopathic nutcases is turning me off bigtime to the "progressive" movement. Every time i see an antigun article on here, i cringe, because i know there will be volumes of people hurling insults at legal gun ownership and legal gun owners. i know it's easy to blame and easy to blame the NRA, etc, but doesn't get at the root of the problem at all.
America is a violent country and not because of it's gun ownership, but many many factors. Why is our grotesque, violent entertainment industry never attacked? i'm so sick of these attacks on us, that's why there's a fair amount of people who'll never want to be part of any progressive movement. it's just as extreme on the left as it is on the right. Progressives, ever realize that gun owners might be with you on a lot of issues but if you continue these labels, they'll wind up voting "repugnican" anyway?
Dear WmC
You said:
"A gun-hugger, in other words, would be an individual such as yourself."
Ha Ha Ha. Wow. Looks like I touched nerve.Thing is, I wasn't even tryin'.
Dear Bolondvero
You said:
"Absolutely no guns at home. Only military and police can carry guns. Period."
You're kidding right? Sarcasm? The last folks I trust are cops. Why would I feel safer if they have guns? And then the military? There are alot of those folks who blindly follow the orders of...ultimately...politicians. Nope. Don't trust them either. Or feel safer. Now. There are tons of good folks in both camps. But, it is not a soldiers duty to question orders, nor is it a police officers.
I dunno...If your serious, I think you might be living in fantasy. This ain't "One Adam Twelve" anymore.
Thank you,
-Glen
I always wonder if 'the people' in the first amendment are
the same 'people' in the second.
Absolutely no guns at home. Only military and police can carry guns. Period.
WmC:
10:14 AM
Thank you so much, for what others have described as your 'insults', and I would add, truly conescending remarks, to my comments on this thread at 3:15 AM.
I find them truly 'gut-wrenching', and more than that: mind-altering-in-the-extreme. I will never,eve,leave earth again for even one uber-second, with either body, mind, soul, or one iota of 'touchiness', or, for that matter, my sister's piece of scrap-paper bearing the one-and-only true-grit signiture, of the "Duke", himself.
I can see you like numbers, but I will resist my gut, and not call you, or anyone like you, a 'number-hugger'. Go figure.
Even though, you do say: "..30,00 Americans die per year by gunfire: about half by suicide and about half by accident and homicide. On the other hand, justifiable homicides with a gun typically average about 100 per year throughout the entire country." I guess that settles that! And it took LESS than two minutes too.
Will, not exactly. I would modify the 30,000 figure by proclamation. No one I know, asked to come into this present, perfect, state of ours, but many are violently opposed to staying here, or even there. You might even consider it some people's right to pursue happiness. And a majority of the people, in the state of Oregon, seem to agree.
So now the figure drops down to 15,000 according to your own figures, for both accidental demise and homicidal demise, and since you don't indicate just how many are accidential, I-didn't-know-the-gun-was-loaded, demises, and how many are the result of gang-shooting, police/criminal shootouts, extreme domestic mayhem, robberies gone-bad, robberies gone-good, etc., I guess we'll have to let New York CSI figure it out.
Speaking of altered states, does it seem strange to you, as it apparently did to Mendo Chuck, who mentioned it, in this very same thread, that Senator D. Feinstein carried a concealed-weapons-permit and assumedly, the equipment which said permit permitted, while seeking laws to deny law-abiding citizen's right of gun ownership?
And what would your 'statistics' say about that?
Or, if more folks would have had firearms in the Warsaw ghetto, would there have been more jusifiable homicides, but fewer accidental homicides, more suicides, but less mayhem?
Or, as punkassbeeotch (12:43AM) again, in this same thread, points out, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Christ all embraced a pacific dogma. Two were assasinated, and one was crucified.
I will be so bold as to argue that the people who opted for the 'showers', over charging the electrocuting fence, wave after wave until the fuzes blew, are less worthy of respect than it's-going-to-be-a-hot-time-in-the-old-work-place-tonight crowd, but of course, that's just my gut-mind speaking.
As you seem to want to frame this discussion as 'emotion vs intellect', I would ask you this:
Were the 2000 election 'results', the result of NUMBERS of votes, or the "truthiness" of the Supreme Court.
You may not like the Supremes, but you must admit, they have a lot of Gold Records.
By way of closing, and since I never-again want to be accussed of "truthiness" or "gut feeling" to "fashion" my responses, I will include some numbers here, based on common knowledge, as in, 'everybody knows', which as everybody knows, is also a song, sung by Leonard Cohen: About 50,00 Americans are killed via the automobile each year, not counting the collateral damage, of deaths by environmental degradation, produced by fossil fuel dependency. Maxhemust (10:47 AM) also on this thread, says 30,000 human being world wide, die every DAY, from hunger/malnutrition.
starislon to WmC:
Please let me know if you believe my response is 'un-gut' enough to meet your criteria for "truthiness". Maybe numbers never lie, maybe not.
Did Gore 'win' in 2000? Was a homicide victum dead right to venture out into the light of day or the dark of night unarmed? How many homicide victums were armed, and how many not? Does no one have the right to defend themselves?
How does it go: Liars, Damned Liars, and Politicians? Or, is it: Liars, Damned Liars, and Statisticians?
I get so confused trying to hear my gut-speak, maybe you know?
Would you live in Las Vegas, Reno, or Atlantic City? Just guessing.
It would be great to see millions of Americans marching to Washington with their weapons (shotguns, rifles, pistols, rakes, hoes, and/or shovels) in their hands - to run off all the bastards from the halls of power.
Power to the people - true justice, democracy and
horror to the oligarchy!
Just for your information, punkass, I do not assume all gun owners fit the definition of "gun-huggers". Gun-huggers are those who deny the obvious reality about the dangers guns pose in and to a civilized society, about the costs they impose on the US (last estimated to be $100B per year) and who are incapable of discussing the issue on a rational, coherent basis. A gun-hugger, in other words, would be an individual such as yourself.
Thank You punkassbeeotch or Glen . . . .
I appreciate real progressive input that at least tries to maintain life on a "Live and Let Live Basis . . . Good Luck to You and Yours.
There are those that forget the original settlers, invaders, whatever your definition may be, came here seeking a better life. Now we must make our better life where we can. Unless of course someday in the near future one can find a way to live on the moon.
Dear Anney-
I can totally relate!
You said:
"Never have had such thoughts before in my long life!"
Me too. I never thought that I'd relate to the " when the government comes to take away my rights, I'll be ready..." camp. I mean jeeze, I did reports on gandhi and MLK as a kid in school....what happened?
I don't think it's bad to have new thoughts. The old paradigms just don't fit anymore. New ideas for new situations.So many people i talk to desire an escape to elsewhere, usually somewhere off the grid, more natural, etc. This speaks more to our human nature i believe, than the "what can we do to save/preserve capitalism" zeitgeist that we see in much of the so called "green" movement.
Thank you,
-Glen
==I do not think it a bad idea to prepare.==
I agree, though I've never owned a gun in my life. I've been playing around with the idea lately, wondering if there's any lawful means left to stop America's slide into fascism. I've also been thinking about leaving the US for an island in the South Pacific. Never have had such thoughts before in my long life!
Dear anney-
You said:
"But the Iraqi constitution doesn't say that..."
I didn't even know they had a constitution...but....
I care not what our constitution says either. Sorry. This system doesn't work. Period.Can you say "failed"? Our system - capitalism,which many willingly interchange with democracy - can only support itself on continual growth. In a finite universe, obviously this cannot happen. So, we are in collapse.Running out or "resources". I want my gun not because of a piece of paper. I want it when in case this collapse gets so out of hand, then I may be able to resist whatever oppression may ensue. I am mainly referring to the very possible reality that you mention of "it coming to that" whereby I would then have the opportunity (responsibility?) to form or join said armed militia here. And so while I am not fanatical about preparation (nor overly paranoid), I do not think it a bad idea to prepare.
While i'd love very much to meet Bush in private for say....5 minutes or so, it's this system that is destroying everything, not one man.
Thank you,
-Glen
punkassbeeotch
== I am unsure if the vast majority of gun owning Iraquis were a part of some organized militia until there was a need for it.==
But the Iraqi constitution doesn't say that " A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Ours does; people may keep and bear arms in a well regulated militia. Nothing is said about a right to own guns for one's personal use, just for groups of people to protect the security of their free state.
It may come to that if Bush isn't stopped...
Dogma
I am hearing a lot of dogma.
I assume most people here are self identified as being "progressive". It's not really progressive to get stuck in an ideology tho' is it? It's stagnation not progression.
This "all people who own guns are psychos" attitude is at the very least judgemental, and at the extreme it's bigotry. Not something one would expect from "progressives".
Here are some quotes I'd like to challenge from the comments:
"Gun crime has risen steeply over the past three years." Obesity has risen, alcoholism has risen, population has risen...hello? I love thes "there are more" fill in the blank "happening today than ever" statitics. Population is yet another issue that not many are willing to discuss.
"...gun-toting Americans are more passionate over this issue than EVERY other issue.." well, I must be an anomally as I own a gun and there are plenty of other issues that I find more important. How may I count the ways?
" I cant wait to see all these "citizen soldiers" defending their homes with pistols against attack heliocopters and fighter jets and tanks…" I can't wait to see you defend yourself against all of this with nothing at all....
"Well there you have it, every gun toter has a reason." Isn't that better than not having reason? Call it a reason or an excuse...whatever. I'm sure you have a reason or an excuse for having a toaster or WTF-ever, does that make you an appliance fanatic? Maybe you're a toaster toter with an excuse?
"This is not a denial strategy but rather a recognition that Ghandi, MLK, Christ, Mohammed, Buddha Gautama and millions of others knew/know one thing. We cannot learn what we need to learn when there is violence and fear in our hearts."
It is a denial strategy to pin these guys up as THE solution. Dogmatic pacifism is still dogma. I'll post it again: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/10/366194.shtml
"The president of NRA sums up the American societal values..." Hmmm... perhaps. But not mine. Let's try not to attack all Americans here shall we? It's just so darned prejudiced.....not very "progressive" of you eh? Almost sounds like fear. Besides, Europe has there own NRA's too.
"Guns will never become the solution to any problem." Clearly this is an unthinking statement. At the risk of being repetitive: African American slave rebellions, The warsaw ghetto, viet nam, The Battle of the Little Big horn, the american revolution, Iraq...just to name a couple. Guns were/are the solution for many of the survivors and resistors of oppression. As they are today as well. Where are you getting your information please?
"One reason for gun ownership is fear.." Absolutely. How comfortable are you with say.....Blackwater? Sure my 9mm won't be much against that type of force, but what will you be using? Your fists? Buddhist mantras? What?
"The natural state of mankind is tribal war." Wrong. Where are you getting your information? Perhaps this is true for civilized man. Or if what has been characterized as war for pre civilized man is what you're referring to.....wrong again- hardly anyone died in those "wars".
"The strong will always dominate the weak if they can get away with it. This is historically true, and remains true to this day unless I have missed some subtle evolutionary sea change." Note the use of the word "dominate". Spoken like a true member of a dominant culture where non-dominator paradigms cannot even be considered. This way of life is not and has not been the one true way for human existence. History is not representative of mankind- 10,000 years of "history" vs. hundreds of thousands of years of human existence. Hello? Who writes history? Who does it benefit to write history in such a way as to negate the importance of any other way of living that differs from civiliztion?
"Hell in some states you can kill someone and get away with it, you just have to suspect someone is going to do you harm" Wow. I hadn't heard that one. Can I have a reference please? Jeeze. That does sound scary.
"Do the right thing, be a man." Ha Ha Ha. Right on! Nothing like an appeal to my masculinity. Ha Ha Ha. Looks like you've about solved all the problems of this country.....all the way from...where are ya located?
"This obsesession with guns in America borders on psychopathic. I don't have a real problem for folks owning guns to perhaps protect their property.." Property? Jesus. That's psycho. You're gonna kill and or die for property? Nice.
"For a lot of them, it's more important to have a gun than it is a good paying job, health care insurance and any number of issues. They will go out of their way to slit their own throats to keep that damned gun rather than open their eyes and see they have been screwed for years by Republican's!" Huh? I've never heard of anybody republican or not, who would rather slit their own throat....I think you're being a bit emotional in your statements here?
"Leave it to gun-huggers, of course, to rely on their gut feelings and/or "truthiness" to fashion their responses" While your stats are correct, I am unsure how these insults can be construed as constructive. Yes, we're fucked. We're caught between fascism and....well, fascism. What's the solution? Characterizing all gun owners as rabid fanatical less-than-human psychopaths? You seem almost rabid yourself in your unbiased critique.....
"The vast majority of gun-owners sure don't belong to a well-regulated militia,..." I am unsure if the vast majority of gun owning Iraquis were a part of some organized militia until there was a need for it.
Look. It seems like we're getting bogged down in balck and white, wrong and right discussion. C'mon people. Is it really that simplistic? I think not. Please, let's try not to cling to rigidity, fear, and fixed beliefs in our attempt to discuss "progressive" solutions or any kind of solutions for that matter. Please?
Thank you,
-Glen
This may be hard to believe, I know, but this is true . . . At least according to a study requested by Congress in 2003.
Last year more Americans were killed by prescription drugs than by guns, AIDS, suicides and terrorists combined. How about 1,730,000?
Marc Kaufman, Washington Post Staff Writer
Medication Errors Harming Millions, Report Says
July 21, 2006
"Based on past studies, the panel estimated that drug errors cause at least 400,000 preventable injuries and deaths in hospitals each year, more than 800,000 in nursing homes and facilities for the elderly, and 530,000 among Medicare recipients treated in outpatient clinics. The report said the actual numbers are probably much higher. Drugs that are perscribed correctly."
If you don't want to own a gun fine . . . .
Just don't tell me that I can't . . . .
However if you need help you can call 911 and wait 15 to 20 minutes to upwards of an hour in some places. There is NO LAW that says that the police have to protect you. If you doubt that just ask any Law Enforcement Officer . . . .
The police investigate crime after the fact . . . .
When the politicians give up there right for protection then I will consider giving up mine. Ask Senator Feinstein about her Concealed Carry Permit that she had while she was seeking laws that would deny me my right of ownership. When the news got out about her CCW permit she switched to a Federal Permit that is denied the likes of the us LOWER Class citizens. Please explain why her life is more important to protect that mine, or your own for that matter . . . . . Are you less important than your elected official?
The New American magazine reminds us that March 25th marked the 16th anniversary of Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes.
The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982.
And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998.
Lobo Gris
----
Look at Switzerland & Canada. Both places have lots of guns per capita (similar to US rates), but they don't have problems like ours with violence. Why not?
The Swiss politicians serve & help the people, not just the rich. At the root of the frustration and anger that results in violence in the USA is selfishness, greed, & corruption.
The US political and economic systems are rotten to the core. They're like cancerous tumours that suck the life force from all who they touch.
-------
We mustn't forget that over 800,000 Iraqis have been killed and over a million crippled for life as a result of the US invasion/occupation of Iraq. Also, around 30,000 people die of hunger/malnutrition everyday - many of them are victims of USA's economic hit men. The hands of our most powerful leaders are soaked in the blood of innocent people. The USA is the champion of horror - both at home and abroad.
==============
What's going on in the world?
http://www.Share-International.org
Every time there is a mass gun murder in the US, the media there get themselves in a twist figuring out just why it happened. Rarely, if ever, is the mass prevalence of guns blamed as a cause. What a bizarre society and how dare it try to impose its values on the rest of humanity. DEMOCRACY! FREEDOM! Humbug.
starislon2 @ 3:15 am said:
"That would mean more than 7,900 Americans per year, for fifty-four years, would have had to be killed by American gunfire, and I don't beleive that is the case."
Earth to starislon2:
Two minutes worth of research would have revealed the fact that approximately 30,000 Americans die per year by gunfire: about half by suicide and about half by accident and homicide. On the other hand, justifiable homicides with a gun typically average about 100 per year throughout the entire country.
Leave it to gun-huggers, of course, to rely on their gut feelings and/or "truthiness" to fashion their responses.
As I have noted in other "gun control" threads - being armed has saved my life. I have had my house broken into by an armed (knife) intruder. He became very cooperative when faced with a shotgun. Took the police almost 15 minutes to respond to the 911 call.
canuckchuck
=="A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."==
To what militia do gun-toting individuals belong? Who regulates these gun-toting individuals? That's what I wonder.
There are several definitions of "militia" and the one closest to what I think the founding fathers probably meant is this:
"a body of citizen soldiers as distinguished from professional soldiers."
The vast majority of gun-owners sure don't belong to a well-regulated militia, and America is frightened of militant groups that do own guns. Most gun-owners operate all on their own.
I do think people should be allowed to own guns for hunting in some parts of the US.
It's why a lot of people like my son vote Republican! For a lot of them, it's more important to have a gun than it is a good paying job, health care insurance and any number of issues. They will go out of their way to slit their own throats to keep that damned gun rather than open their eyes and see they have been screwed for years by Republican's! The Republican's have used the gun issue for over 40 years now to rake in the votes. These people never seem to wise up to the fact they are being manipulated. When if most of them would use their brain they would figure out. There isn't any way the government is going to get everyone's gun. Can you for instance imagine the tremendous cost of such an operation to the taxpayer? Hiring enough people to go door to door in a nation of how many million people and collect guns. The cost alone would be prohibitive. Not that most people would give them up anyway. The gun owners are not being realistic on the issue.
if were serious about decreasing crime, we'd legalize all drugs as a priority. crack, heroin, mdma, meth or whatever; available now at your local pharmacy with a prescription, without the increased cost---and dubious purity---which naturally result from prohibition laws. drug crimes aren't about drugs, they're about easy money. take away the dea markup and watch the number of shootings, carjackings and armed robberies plummet. (it might also have a salutary effect on our foreign policy, as clandestine ops would have to go on budget.)
as to defending ourselves from jackbooted fascism, i would argue that we might already have succumbed to such a fate were it not for the huge uncertainty posed by a heavily-armed populace. keep your powder dry, and keep the bastards nervous.
I grew up on a ranch, and have been around guns my whole life. They are in my closet now, two rifles and a shotgun. I see no reason to give them up. Maybe that makes me an insane, stupid person - I don't care.
This obsesession with guns in America borders on psychopathic. I don't have a real problem for folks owning guns to perhaps protect their property.. or to hunt...(although do you REALLY need a high powered rifle to kill that deer????)
But here in Cincinnati, where we have had a carry conceal law in effect for the past couple of years.. our gun violence has NOT gone down.. it has gone UP.. SO that "study" that said that if you allow EVERYONE to have a gun , gun violence will go down is bs.
I am sorry... this carrying gun thing is really getting to be psycho. If you feel the need to carry a gun to protect yourself in school (which sadly seems to be sometimes the case..) then there is something WAY wrong in our society. It isn't going to be solved my MORE guns.. All you do with that is say. YEs problems can be solved by more guns.. Instead of looking at WHY kids are going into schools and shooting their classmates. Uh.. that is pretty psycho and what are the stressors behind that. ??
You really think that a Teacher carrying a gun on her person is going to prevent gun death? So our schools and our towns become the Wild West... where justice is met out by a gun? WOW... how evolved we Americans are..
NOT.
It is really a psychopathic illness. My stepfather had 3 guns in his car.. it got broken into and 2 of the guns ended up on the street. I criticised him for having those guns in his car in the first place (they were going to a PLAY!) and he got all defensive and said "oh yeah.. blame the victim!"j ...
The man has 2 hands and 3 guns.. he couldn't take the guns in the theatre... yet these gun nuts raise their voices in protest about their RIGHTS.
WHat to be an insane person?
I don't want to live in the Wild WEst or someplace like Iraq.. Yeah.. that is fun....
This country has been populated by a bunch of insane stupid people!!
I don't know the background of the author of this piece, maybe he's been protected by his position.
Maybe he believes what he says, it could be.
I don't know the basis for his claim that since November of 1963, more Americans have
died by American gunfire than perished on foreign battlefields in all of the 20th century, but he doesn't give a source, and even if he did, I wouldn't believe it.
American war casualties in the 20th Century, according to Wikkepedia, are 430,146.
That would mean more than 7,900 Americans per year, for fifty-four years, would have had to be killed by American gunfire, and I don't beleive that is the case.
And to put that claim in perspective would only require a quick look at yearly national automobile fatalities. I believe it's somewhere around 50,000 per year.
Not that domestic gun-shot fatalities are inconsequential, either to the victums, their families, or the nation at large.
But maybe we should also count the number of lives, saved here in America, by firearms too.
I know it's difficult to say with certainty that one's life has been saved.
When someone pulls their car into a driveway, and two men with drawn knives jump into the back seat, known neither to the driver, or the driver's passenger, do the ones with the knives have murderous intent?
When the driver pulls out a pistol, causing the two strange men to dissapear, faster than they appeared, did he save his life, or his passenger's life, or both their lives?
Maybe the men with knives were only going to ask for a contribution to their favorite non-profit institution, maybe not.
I have had more than one bullet coming my way, unarmed out in the country, I have been held-up at gun-point, while unarmed twice, and was the only one, unarmed, in the car mentioned before.
I have never been accosted while armed, which just may be a coincidence, then again, maybe not.
I think the author of Guns Take Pride in Family Values should try to try-on the broader view, the world wide picture if you will.
Just how many people have been killed by governments (local, state &/or national), verus how many people have been killed by their fellow citizens?
Pick any period of recorded history for your comparison.
Do you trust our present government? Should you?
It's a sorry state of affairs when people have more trust, in long-gone Sam Colt, than in present-day George Bush, or any other once and future king, but it's nothing new.
White Rose, maybe you should work on yourself and fixing your own country.
Do the right thing, be a man.
USA can change, overhaul public education make it a genuine education, provide the health care that everybody requires, create social housing for those who need it, put a cap on inheritance tax, completely shut down all factories involved in small arms manufacture, tax the living shit out of the 1.5 or 2 percent of the population which is at the wealthy end of the wealth scale.
Declare war on oil based technologies become a world leader in alternatives. And shut down your religious schools they are hot beds of fundamentalist activism.
Thanks for this, Paul Bramscher, \"Here we go — another anti-second amendment article.
Yes, disarmament is a good idea. Lets start at the top, not at the bottom. Until politicians start defending the remaining bills of rights, it is not prudent to willingly give up #2.
After the onslaught of Bush and failure of the Democrats to actively oppose him, we're supposed to warm up to the idea of a state monopoly on firepower?\"
Took the words right out of my mouth, Paul Bramscher. Truth is they want to disarm us with all this propagandistic crap. I\'m not laying down and dying for Bush or any Democrat asshole..or anybody.
Well, most of what you said made sense, anyway. -- It is never prudent to willingly give up #2. And the state we are in now is a prime example of why we should NEVER give up our 2nd amendment.
People who live in the country may have different needs (shooting varmints) than those in the city. Some people want to protect themselves against robbers etc. Others like huntiing for various reasons. Others are rightfully afraid of the government. I personally do not like guns and do not own one but I can understand easily why one might.
Considering America is the most powerful nation on earth, with its citizenry owning more guns per capita than any other country why is it exhibiting such paranoia about its borders, giving up its civil liberties for unattainable security? Hunting rifles for hunting is one thing the other firearms are tools for threatening to harm or harming someone. Once you start that game it always escalates particularly with the NRA demagogues fueling the fears. Hell in some states you can kill someone and get away with it, you just have to suspect someone is going to do you harm, wow haven't we come along way with that 2nd amendment!! God and Guns and no guts is more like it.
Happy Days, mind you, Sweden (and Finland, where I come from) actually have a pretty high guns per capita count due to lots of hunting weapons in the countryside. Personal firearms are really rare though because nobody bothers... and "bearing arms" out in public is banned.
You can certainly own one though, and theoretically, defend your home with it, shoot intruding government officials with it, etc... :) -- I'm pretty happy with the concept of public out in the open spaces being areas where it's the police that maintains order instead of people turning it into a shooting range where it's everyone for himself. Most violent situations here are about drunk guys brawling, and when you're sure there are no weapons involved, intervening without risking someone's death is a much more reasonable proposition.
I understand what you're saying about the Congo, where your argument certainly carries weight, but Finland is not the Congo, and I'm really glad it isn't. It's all about the escalation of force, and the added sense of fear and paranoia it induces in people when you need to look out for he possibility of someone trying to put a bullet in your head. Weapons also lower the treshold to killing -- killing someone with your bare hands is psychologically actually quite difficult. A lot of people can't do that. Pulling the trigger is much more easy, and this is why deaths increase with the number of easier to use weapons.
An interesting point to consider for all those gun nuts who look down at us conformist pinko Nordics... at least in Finland we've got universal conscription, while the most macho yanks have never actually been near the military. ;) All males here have been taught how to fire an assault rifle. I'm pretty sure if someone tried to set up some fascist dictatorship, we'd have organized, trained military resistance up among the civilian population pretty quickly...
A gun is a tool, like a knife or saw or shovel or screwdriver. Irresponsible use of any tool can cause harm and death. They must be handled with responsibility that is all. And I think they are necessary to our bottom line freedom, do you really trust our leaders to give you your freedom? Are the women in the Congo free without guns? The people in Myanmar?
It is too bad that our world is still so barbaric, but it is.
Sweden seems pretty swell without them, but how many countries are that placid, educated, and civilized?
well said Paul Bramscher, yet another anti-gun article. also thanks advocate.
it's all the fault of course of the fascist, NRA, gun owning, arsenal crazed nuts literally trying to suck peace from the earth! let's all throw our guns away, sing kumbaya in a big campfire and have a warm fuzzy feeling as we rely on the police to protect us all the time. Let's not discuss the tons of violent, disgusting hollywood films that glorify murder. let's ignore the articles where gun ownership saved someone's life.
As the piece points out, other societies have high levels of gun ownership without the same level of carnage. The problem is with the alienation created by the crass, hyper-consumerist, patriarchal and unforgiving culture that exists in the U. S. Alienated people, that are not mentally strong to begin with, will always find a way to lash out at their real or perceived tormentors. Gun laws dis-empower us not the lawbreakers. Laws can only work when they are created and couched within a healthy and sound society. Otherwise, they tend to become a weapon of one class against another and so become a cruel joke.
While it may be true that hand-guns and rifles may not be a match for attack helicopters and tanks, it sure beats a blank. Iraqis, if nothing else, have shown what a people, even lightly armed, can do against superior forces using 4th generation warfare tactics. The writer of the piece, perhaps on purpose, only emphasizes one aspect of the constitutional right to bear arms. It must be remembered that the founders had just finished beating off the British and understood that a central government, as is now the case, can turn tyrannical. Thomas Jefferson put it this way:
"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that his people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms…The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
and Abraham Lincoln saw it this way:
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it."
and
"The people are the masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it"
Just imagine how the American Revolution or, non-Revolution to be more exact, would look today. The American colonists would engage in peaceful protest against The Stamp Act, for example, and the Red Coats would give them a "warm" welcome. People on the Left cannot seem to grasp how power works. They seem to think that power lies in voting, pressuring the political leadership or narcissistic forms of protest. But anybody who has lived in a rough neighborhood understands that you either fight or get took. The crackdown in Burma is a perfect as example of peaceful protest meeting hot lead. The results are in now; the hot lead won. The lesson is not only that ruthless people cannot be swayed by appeals to reason or morality, which is a central underlying assumption of peaceful protest, but also that when protest fails, many people can wind up dead and, perhaps, more importantly, since there is no longer any help for the dead, a whole generation can be demoralized and terrorized in to submission. The bottom line is that the only rights you have are those you can defend. Again, the current sorry state of our Republic (sic) shows this. Clearly, a mass movement is necessary at this point. However, it must be prepared to win, as Malcolm put it, "by any means necessary." The American colonists understood this, so should we.
I agree with Paul. Some unpleasant facts need to be considered:
• The natural state of mankind is tribal war. The strong will always dominate the weak if they can get away with it. This is historically true, and remains true to this day unless I have missed some subtle evolutionary sea change.
• Civilization is an artifice. The society of gentle souls who people this blog live in a happy, orderly, sheltered society carefully crafted over centuries of European jurisprudence, maintained by standing armies and policemen with glocks. But the peaceable kingdom is not the default reality among our fellow hominids. In most parts of the world you'd be insane to give up your guns. Lethal power both protects and oppresses us. I don't like this, I just think it is true in the sublunary world.
• American society, inasmuch as both cops and robbers are living out their cowboy fantasies, is a potentially very dangerous place. The fabric of our society is a card house of non-existent money which could collapse at any time, leaving us unprepared to repel the innumerable people who today have blood issues with us.
When everybody in the world throws their guns into a big pile, I'll be there. Until then, distasteful as it may be, I'm reluctant to give up my corporate share of lethal power.
WTF: I also live in a remote place. I decided some time ago not to be afraid of animals. The last animal I killed was in 1957 and it still makes me sick to remember it. I think the official advice about mountain lions is to chat them up. I can vouch for the effectiveness and educational value of this from personal experience.
One reason for gun ownership is fear, but for some people it is cultural. I was up early this morning flipping through the channels and there was this hunting show on. The host took such obvious pride in having shot an antelope and followed its trail of blood to where it died. I thought it was bizarre and grotesque, but obviously many people get a thrill out of killing something.
Many gun owners are like this guy. They want to save their heritage and culture, and their idea of manliness is tied up in self-sufficiency and not being afraid to kill. To each his own, I guess, but here in the urban landscape the reasoning is completely different. I think the risk of violence or the threat of violence is extremely rare in a person's life, but it only has to happen once, maybe twice, before you either fight back or flee.
Barn Burner October 14th, 2007 4:59 pm used my admission that I own a gun as demonstrating that every gun-toter will have an excuse. I will not argue with that. But I will state that a baseball bat will not save you when set upon by 5-6 feral dogs (only in your wildest dreams or Hollywood will it prove otherwise).
I do not know what the answer is to the out-of-control US gun culture. I was trying to demonstrate that there are 2 sides to the issue. Remember, never criticize someone until you have hiked 5 miles in their moccasins.
Some kids you've got in class when you need a "well regulated militia" to keep then under control.
Well, perhaps you do, if they are armed as well. :)
Why should politicians, celebrities, and wealthy individuals have the right to be armed ( via bodyguards ), while the rest of us can be unarmed victims??
Thank you, but I refuse to be a victim.............I'll keep a loaded .38 at the bedside and use it responsibly. That is my RIGHT and I think my life is no less worthy of preserving than the President, King, or anyone else.
Who was it that said power comes from the barrel of a gun?There are to many guns in the communities to put the tooth paste back in the tube. Just make sure that the left is not out matched!What a sucky option,but here we are.
Here we go -- another anti-second amendment article.
Yes, disarmament is a good idea. Let's start at the top, not at the bottom. Until politicians start defending the remaining bills of rights, it is not prudent to willingly give up #2.
After the onslaught of Bush and failure of the Democrats to actively oppose him, we're supposed to warm up to the idea of a state monopoly on firepower?
WTH says:I should point out, however, that I own a gun, as I live and hike in a remote area with mountain lions and feral dogs. I pray that I never need to use it for I wish to never harm any creature.
Barn Barner says: Well there you have it, every gun toter has a reason. A baseball bat would probably be as effective against those wild animals and faster on the draw.
Oh yes, Barn Burner. A baseball bat is so very much more effective against the feral dog that is killing my lambs than a gun, when I'm at the top of the pasture, he's way down at the bottom and even a high school track star couldn't run him down to whack him with your baseball bat. Get real.
That being said, like WTH, I don't want to have to use my .22. And I don't see why people need assault-type rifles that would stop a rhinoceros, or punch holes through armor plate.
This reminds me a little of an old Chris Rock routine. (I think it was him who did this.) He suggested that instead of controlling guns, you should control the ammunition - the bullets. Like cars, which are essentially inert without gasoline, guns are basically non-harmful if they've no bullets. (Although I suppose you still could use it as a blunt object, though.)
Paul Harris wrote:
"Some surveys estimate there are more than two million 'defensive' uses of firearms each year. But others say that this argument is a shield, using guns as a way of deflecting harder arguments about how crime is caused by economics, poverty and racism. "
COMMENT:
Racism can cause crime, but economics and poverty can only contribute to a predilection to crime, but are not causes. Congress has a higher percentage of criminals than any slum, ghetto, or barrio of which I'm aware. Although poverty and inequalities in income, assets, opportunities, and the law can encourage bad behavior, they do not cause it. Crimes are caused by bad people whether on the street, in the boardrooms, or the halls of government.
While you're waiting for the predatory economic system to be changed which will eliminate poverty, and while you're waiting for people to stop hating each other based on their race, being armed with an "equalizer" gives many people peace of mind, justified or not.
Not long ago a woman shot her ex-boyfriend in a shoot-out when he broke into her house with gun in hand and a vow to kill her. She has her life because of a gun.
In recent weeks, also nearby, a man with a concealed gun permit, shot a man who was stabbing a woman repeatedly even though there was a crowd around. She was in critical condition but lived because of a stranger with a gun. In the famous case of Kitty Genovese who was stabbed on the street during an attack that lasted nearly an hour in front of 37 witnesses who didn't even call the police there was no stranger with a gun to save her. She died.
Get a fair economic system, uphold the laws for the general society that currently exist, and use the laws of the Constitution and International law to take the criminals in government out of society, and gun violence may cease to be a problem.
I never felt the need to own a gun or to protect myself from my neighbors. Never until until the Fascists coup. Are we safer yet?
I have to quote Gandhi:
True
1. Guns takes pride of place in the American family values;
2. Weapons of mass destruction takes the pride of place in American foreign policy (Again America has stood first in the sales of weapons in 2006)
Shocking, that American corporate gun makers are seeding war all over the world and profiting by it! For shame! Where is the integrity and resposibility in American corporate values?
But I don't believe that violence rules in our American value system/religions though. There is fear- always and only fear, that motivates people to lose reason and love for one another.
Now, the US is spreading this program all over the rest of the world in the name of profit and a strong economy - FOR SHAME!
It's time the US grew up and responsibly fixed the crises that have developed through our greed and fear. FOR SHAME!
"Carry a baseball bat when you walk in the forests or on the street, for heavens sake!"
To make America a level playing(shooting) field there should be gun shops at every port of entry into the US so visitors
could rent and carry a gun for self protection while in the US.
"Guns seem neither to be totally the problem and certainly not the solution."
Guns will never become the solution to any problem. On the flip side, if Congress doesn't grow some balls and start dealing with the social inequality issues that drive people to seek out guns to commit crimes for the sole purpose of money and survival, gun ownership in this country will soon become a major and uncontrollable problem as living-wage jobs become non-existent and people resort to crime to feed and shelter their families and themselves.
Millions of import containers enter this country without being checked for content. How many of them are full of guns and other weapons that are being sold on the streets? This seems to be one of many questions our incompetent and corrupt leaders refuse to address.
While they continue to bail out the Wall Street elites who are largely responsible for screwing up this economy and job market, the shit will eventually hit the turbo-driven fan with devastating results, making Katrina look like a lamb.
In the USA in some states even a clearly intoxicated person can buy a gun. Product safety laws do not apply to guns so that even guns like a Chinese Mac 10 ripoff that began firing when loaded are not illegal or required to be recalled.
Even though everyone is likely to run into a gun at some point in their life there is no requirement for training.
For these and other reasons lots of people are killed and injured by guns.
What gets me is that anyone is surprised.
People always thought I was such a twit because I would not allow my daughter's to play with water pistols or those imitation cowboy-type pistols you load with caps. I did not want them thinking that a pretend toy, in reality, if real murders people.
I would ask parents, if my kids were going to be in their home, if they had guns in the home. Some would get very irate at this question I posed, pissed off neighbor or dead daughter, Hmmmmm, I really could not have cared less if they thought of it as an insult.
I live in a burb of Philly, my brother lives in town, and I am in town 3-4 days a week. You have to know which parts of Philadelphia has that high incidence of murder. N. Philly, certain parts of W. Philly and S. Philly past a certain block, K & A, Germantown and more. It is not the entire city of Philadelphia. I am not saying that it is okay for the increase in murders to be happening here, just have to know where to avoid. Like any other city.
Americans are gun crazy, I have never understood this phenomenon. I do not understand hunting, murdering these animals. It sickens me that the NRA weilds so much power in this country.
The president of NRA sums up the American societal values. He said that America takes pride in "god, gun and guts". Most of the Republican presidential candidates were present in the function when he made this statement.
Guns takes pride of place in the American family values;
Weapons of mass destruction takes the pride of place in American foreign policy (Again America has stood first in the sales of weapons in 2006);
That means VIOLENCE takes the pride of place in the American value system;
Violence takes the pride of place in American Religion;
USA = UNITED STATES OF ARMAGEDDON
The bubble of fear, in my experience, has to be popped every day. Each time that is done in contemplation of the beauty of life it is done with prayer for the fearful and the victims of violence, and becomes more resilient. This is not a denial strategy but rather a recognition that Ghandi, MLK, Christ, Mohammed, Buddha Gautama and millions of others knew/know one thing. We cannot learn what we need to learn when there is violence and fear in our hearts.
It is a personal choice to journey in mindfulness and the journey of a lifetime more amazing than anything that I can possibly write. To me, this is the stage of human evolution we are in - and it is a choice. Weapons into plowshares.
WTH says:I should point out, however, that I own a gun, as I live and hike in a remote area with mountain lions and feral dogs. I pray that I never need to use it for I wish to never harm any creature.
Well there you have it, every gun toter has a reason. A baseball bat would probably be as effective against those wild animals and faster on the draw. There was 60 minutes piece done about 15 years ago where the gun totters who had used their weapons were interviewed. Most of them had shot a loved one by accident. One had actually killed a burglar with a shot gun but when questioned further wasn't really sure if the burglar was trying to just get the hell out of the house or take his gun away from him. After he got done cleaning up the brains and bone fragments from his living room he decided maybe it was easier just to get burgled once in awhile.
Didn't Michael Moore do a film on "pistol-packen" (that wasn't the title) America? I think the conclusion of that film was: Americans are taught fear handed down from father to son and by their Government. Extrapulating that thought a bit I would say that "fear" is why Americans are so easily led to war in Iraq, GW planted the fear on fertile ground.
A country that was founded on and credited with violence will never give it up. This is a country where people LOVE to watch and experience violence from children watching violent cartoons and playing violent video games to adults watching violent shows and even the wars for oil. And what about all those toy weapons that happily get advertised in those sleazy commercials? And what about all those "get tough or get lost" attitudes teenagers end up growing with? We cannot blame just the guns but instead must learn to take control of our urge to be violent if we're really going to be safer ever again.
"Like everything else, most gun-toting Americans have been brainwashed into thinking it provides them security (from criminals and the Government), when the reverse is true." - WTF
No doubt about it. Policy after policy, Americans are LOSING one freedom after another to the point that even having all the firearms in the world is not going to protect one's freedom. It's no coincidence that groups such as the NRA are awfully silent about freedom robbing agencies such as the CIA, FBI, FCC, FTC, DEA, Chamber of Commerce, etc ...
I have a feeling that most any gun control changes we get going forward are going to be guided by The Supreme Court, more than they're going to be legislated at the federal level. (Unless, of course, we get a Democratic
SWEEP of White House and Congress in 2008. Such a government might pass something, but even then, a second amendment court challenge would likely follow.)
When a definitive case finally gets there, it will be interesting to see what the five Catholics of the Court (Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito, Kennedy) will do.
Might be one of the things they fracture on. Might also be one of the reasons it would be better to have a Democratic president appointing the future judges who will someday replace Stevens, Breyer, Souter & Ginsburg.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
I cant wait to see all these "citizen soldiers" defending their homes with pistols against attack heliocopters and fighter jets and tanks...
Or does the second ammendment include IED's? and RPG's
The US gun culture is a terrible tragedy. Yet it seems to me that gun-toting Americans are more passionate over this issue than EVERY other issue we as a society must face. I have tried to speak peacefully with them, but have had to hold my tongue because they get very angry when their ownership is questioned, lest I become another of these frightening statistics. I give up. I do not know how to stem this tide. Like everything else, most gun-toting Americans have been brainwashed into thinking it provides them security (from criminals and the Government), when the reverse is true.
I should point out, however, that I own a gun, as I live and hike in a remote area with mountain lions and feral dogs. I pray that I never need to use it for I wish to never harm any creature.