The Whine of Voracious Liberals
Does the extremism of some progressives spell danger to delicious evolution? Well, yes
I hear it nearly every week in response to nearly any column that has anything to do with me daring to say I appreciate or admire or moderately wish to commend some sort of progressive movement or corporation or product, one that appears to be creating some sort of good in the world, moving things forward or upending the status quo or infuriating the religious right and making you think/shop/screw anew.
I get the e-mails. And there is, by and large, a general outpouring of agreement, understanding, clarity. There are also lots of healthy disagreement, discussion, valid points of contention. There is the requisite tiny hunk of phlegmy, grunting hate mail from the turgid and the monosyllabic and the neoconservative. Well and good and lovely.
But then there's this other hunk, a surprisingly large and very whiny group of responders who invariably say something like this: It does not matter that Company X has made impressive strides in environmental awareness or product design or gay rights or whatever the hell you're talking about. It does not matter that maybe you're a little bit right and this is a slightly revolutionary thing you mention.
It is still not enough. Company X has Serious Flaws. Product Y still kills trees in Bangladesh. CEO Z hates kittens and wears fur mittens and once said something mean about transsexual midgets. Therefore, you are completely wrong and I cannot believe you support this company/idea and this must mean you're a capitalist idiot Audi-driving hypocrite and I'm never reading your column again. Unless I do. So there.
Specific example? Sure. I recently wrote a big pile of words in tentative but still enthusiastic praise of the Whole Foods juggernaut, a fascinating and innovative mega-grocer led by an equally fascinating, contradictory jerk/genius of a chief executive, John Mackey, half cutthroat libertarian mega-capitalist and half spiritual yoga-loving employee-supporting industry-upending revolutionary.
Here's where it got ugly: While most readers generally agreed (or thoughtfully disagreed) with my assessment that the positive changes Whole Foods is forcing upon the otherwise rather toxic American grocery universe far outweighed the scattershot negatives, a significant chunk were, if not furious, at least sneering and bitter and dissatisfied, wailing to me that, oh my God, didn't I know John Mackey is, for example, anti-union? (Well, yes, I did.)
Well then, didn't I know he used questionable business tactics to buy out Wild Oats? Didn't I know Whole Foods has shoved some mom 'n' pop grocers out of business and didn't I know some small organic farmers don't like their buying power and didn't I know that not everything they offer is totally organic and by the way haven't I noticed their stores are staffed by way too many grungy sullen tattooed hipsters and aren't tattoos and nose rings totally ugly and gross? Uh, sure.
And finally, didn't I know that this one time Reader X got some horrible customer service and Reader Y once encountered snooty patrons and Reader Z can't believe I like them given that they sell bananas imported all the way from Guatemala and therefore Whole Foods is detestable and hateful and blah and blah and blah?
It was like reading a stack of letters from your nasty, drunk hippie grandparents. It was like having a potential lover suddenly slap you for no reason and then tell you their laundry list of impossible needs and STD precautions and all the reasons you can never touch them again, despite how you never really wanted to in the first place.
And here's why: Such letters are all too similar in tone and attitude to the stance of the fundamentalist Christian right, the bitter and perpetually unsatisfied throngs for whom no behavioral law is strict enough and no relationship is unhappy enough and no repressed homosexual desire is self-hating enough.
Let's compare. Because I also recently wrote a piece in celebration of the glorious downfall of the Godmongers in America, the end (at least for now) of the radical Christian right's influence over a wary and dogma-stomped society.
I cheered the collapse of the insufferable "family values" fundamentalist groups that, until recently, controlled much of Congress and yanked Bush's puppet strings and have done so much damage to women and gays and science and love and sex and hope, lo, these past seven years. (Check that: 2,000 years. But that's another column.)
The reason for their glorious collapse? Insatiable zealotry. The fact that, no matter how far to the right BushCo shoved this nation, for this hardcore base of fear-drunk evangelicals, it was never enough. They want nothing short of the complete destruction of gay culture, abortion rights, the end of the separation of church and state. They want, in short, absolute sexual, ideological, and moral lockdown.
To which I responded: Yay! Because ultimately, this sort of rabid zealotry spells certain defeat. Such moronic groups have the seeds of their own destruction built right into their impossible worldviews. Brutal absolutism is their one fatal flaw. So long as it exists (and it always has existed), progress and evolution will always win.
It's an obvious parallel, to see an uber-progressive left that, while encompassing an entirely different ethos (extreme openness and egalitarianism versus extreme clampdown and religious ignorance), still resonates with the same kind of impossible standards of behavior. It's like demanding that the whole world instantly turn into one big PETA rally. There is just no way. I mean, thank God.
Whole Foods is but one example. I've heard the same outcry when I praise, say, Apple product design (which, I admit, is nearly always). It happens when I suggest CFLs are a small but terrific environmental advancement (but don't I know they contain trace amounts of mercury and disposing of them might possibly be a problem in 10 years maybe!?)
And it happens, perhaps most disturbingly, when I write of fitful political progress. It happens across the liberal political blogs, where otherwise well-informed, intelligent commentators will screech that they were once, say, a Barack Obama supporter, but then they heard him say one single thing that sounded "too political" or that wasn't in exact accord with their pet issue of (nukes/war/gays/health care/porn/medical marijuana), and hence they got all pissed and disgusted and now they hate hate hate Obama and are voting for Dennis Kucinich. I mean, please.
On the one hand, I get it. We want to hold progressive companies/people to a higher standard, especially if they want to market themselves as these high-concept change-the-world do-gooders. We, as conscious, informed, progressive consumers have every goddamn right to keep their feet to the liberal fire, and what's more, this zeal has often resulted in a given company/person responding positively. (Ref: Apple's impressive green initiative, Whole Foods working more closely with local farms, et al.)
But ultimately, this sort of excessive, all-or-nothing liberal zealotry will only result in the same dangerous fracturing as always befalls the extreme right. Yes, it seems fairly obvious, but it bears repeating, over and over again, especially as Dems gain more political traction and we head into what will hopefully be a far more enlightened, juicy, and balanced era, where gays marry and wars end and dolphins dance and trees sing and President Jobs gives everyone an organic iPhone.
What, too extreme? Sorry.
Thoughts for the author? E-mail him. Mark Morford's Notes & Errata column appears every Wednesday and Friday on SFGate and in the Datebook section of the San Francisco Chronicle.
© The San Francisco Chronicle
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99 Comments so far
Show AllDamn right Whole Foods is killing small local health food store business! Eugene is putting a whole foods right next to Kiva which is my favorite of many local health food stores. Taxpayers are going to finance it too, monopolies always get socialist handouts because they are pathetic and evil.
outerbeltway--"None of you outraged Progessives offered to lift a finger."
Oh great master ... tell us what we need to do and we will follow. Now FO. Progressive is the new Liberal. Its just another moniker. How do you know what people do and have been doing ? Just because you put out a 'call for action' do you really believe people are gonna fall over themselves to do your bidding ? Are you an idiot ?? Do you know what it takes to organize even the smallest of protest rallies or camnpaigns ? I give up ...
Sonofpowerslave
Rightwing religious fundamentalists reject evolution; they reject any view of the earth that does not conform to the tale of its creation in Genesis; the science of these last two subjects is "outlawed" at rightwing religious colleges.
Rightwing religious fundamentalists have faith that the Apocalypse is coming very soon now. This is their "science", comprised of some very strange writings in the book of Revelation, none of which, apparently, are taken literally by the religious rightwing. I mean, where are the horses, horsemen, chariots, and sea dragons of the apocalypse and all that stuff? Are they keeping the deceased Cecile B. DeMille on heavenly retainer to supply them?
rafalah:
"The fundamentalists not only don't believe in science, they want it outlawed."
Can you cite (name, time, place, publication) an example of one fundamentalist who wants to "outlaw" science.
"Other than the crazy fundamentalists, who supports the Republican platform?"
40% of Americans do, which is the "minimum" Republican vote. They do so for many reasons, gun control, immigration, taxes, being three of them. Insulting them undoubtably makes you feel much more smug about yourself; unfortunately, it will not get them to change their minds. Reasoned arguments might...
It took me a bit to get a handle on why I responded with such a visceral feeling of gut turning disagreement to Mr. Morford's article.
I think it comes down to this: He is arguing as if both the Left (the reasonable and the unreasonable) and the fundamentalist Christian Right (as well as the political party they control, the Republicans) BOTH have the same goals and the same stake in the outcome of what has happened in America, post 2000.
They don't.
The fundamentalists not only don't believe in science, they want it outlawed. The fundamentalists not only don't believe in global warming, they don't really care. See, Jesus is on His way back and according to all the hype of the Timothy LaHaye books, He should be rounding Jupiter about now...
Other than the crazy fundamentalists, who supports the Republican platform? Well, the 1%'ers. The Americans who have a very personal, vested interest in keeping vast numbers of the population ignorant and working on the cheap. Yes, they might vaguely care about mercury in fish and toxic air—but they can easily afford to buy what ever it takes to keep themselves comfortable.
The flaw in Mr. Morford's rant is that he thinks those American's (loony tunes Fundamentalists and the wealthiest 1%) have the same values as Liberals (Like cranky old liberals like me).
No, Mr. Morford. We do not have to be reasonable with crazy people who are cheerleading this country to war to hasten the Second Coming (or to secure a trillion dollars worth of oil, bought and paid for by the crazy people's sons and daughters lives and the duped American tax payer).
Just because some company (insert any mentioned above) or politician sat down with a PR firm and did a cost analysis of tossing the public a bone—while they continued to crap in the water upstream, while they continued to keep slaves but promised to treat 'em real good—that doesn't mean liberals have to buy that tossed bone as the starting point of any discussion with them.
If I read my history right, liberal progress was rarely if ever, won by just reasoning and compromising. I can not recall one single liberal victory that wasn't accompanied by blood shed.
It is really discouraging to read a 'liberal' argue that liberals have to be 'reasonable'
I usually like Mark Morford's stuff, even when I don't agree with him. But I am afraid I really don't get his point here. It seems like he is just lashing out in retaliation for criticism of his centris tenancies. But what really got me was, after all the whining he does about some on the feedback he gets from some of his readers, the bit at the bottom that says "Thoughts for the author? E-mail him." I mean why bother, he obviously does not want to hear from his readership.
I basically agree with this article. Progress comes in small steps. Everything can't be fixed at once nor can everything be perfect and pleasing to everyone.
I think it is better to choose the lesser of two evils when those are the only choices, and at the same time work to get better choices.
Outer Beltway - thanks for creating your temporary online site. I emailed you confirmation of my willingness to participate, from an alternate computer account, just this morning (Monday, 10/15).
RE current exchange, above, between Daniel David and restive:
There's clear merit in both your positions. Most of us here are united by progressive goals and a wish NOT to be fooled any longer, by conservative (pseudo) Democrats.
My idea for a forum page on CD -- as longwindedly reexplained above -- is to set up a more focused CD format where this and other questions can be discussed at fuller length - and kept topically current by insertions of our own article headings.
Please give it some thought.
"restive, your road doesn't lead to a green president. That's sad, but it is very much true. Where it will lead is President Giuliani. Enjoy!"
You mean the road of resisting delusional hopes that we're not going to be back stabbed again? :P
If you had taken the time to actually read what I said, you would have noticed that what I said was:
"Are you sure we're talking about the same Democratic Party, the one that dismantled welfare, approved conservative Supreme Court judges and signed off on NAFTA? You make it sound like the Democratic Party is the Green Party. If this is what you want, more power to you - but if so, for god's sake, don't vote for Democrats or Republicans or any of these beltway losers, except possibly Kucinich. Honestly, I more than sympathize with wanting to have hope - hope is what keeps us going. What you're proposing though doesn't even map to reality. Not even close."
Furthermore, Giuliani? We're in the primaries, not in the national election. If you're wanting me to have "faith in the system," a good place to start would be to actually pay attention to how the system works.
Voting is really crappy sedative - I recommend time away from the computer instead. Maybe then you're realize that you're being set up. As I've said before, if you want to vote strategically, that's one thing (although as this back-and-forth continues, I'm really beginning to doubt that's even possible, given the level of misguided trust some folks are exercising) - but this all is anything but that.
God, enough about talking about politicians. Have fun, kids.
Oh and was he really pushing off Obama as the progressive choice, and bashing Kucinich in the same sentence? I have never even considered voting for Obama, he strikes me as an articulate used car salesman. A new kind of politician my ass!
All the "good things" listed that the Democrats will or won't do don't include getting out of Iraq or an attack on Iran or the Patriot Act or torture or the Geneva Conventions, or unitary executive power -- all of which constitute an American Constitutional crisis.
No one is campaigning on these urgent issues, no one. And if these criminal elements in America's current governmental structure are not dealt with, all the feel-good cosmetic moves the Democrats may or may not perform don't mean diddly. We're swirling down the toilet.
"Where it will lead is President Giuliani. Enjoy!"
Scaring people about the GOP worked in 1992, it's not going to work now, not after 6 years of Democratic obeisance to Bush.
Fuck me. All the guy is saying is let's not hate everyone who tries to do a good thing because they're not perfect. I hope you guys don't judge people in your personal life by the impossible standards you judge the political and business world by.
restive, your road doesn't lead to a green president. That's sad, but it is very much true. Where it will lead is President Giuliani. Enjoy!
>Democrats won't...etc
Perhaps not, but the more conservative ones (Hillary especially) will either sign off on at least some of it, or more likely, let a lot of it sail through with little or no objection - and that's being very kind. Are you sure we're talking about the same Democratic Party, the one that dismantled welfare, approved conservative Supreme Court judges and signed off on NAFTA? You make it sound like the Democratic Party is the Green Party.
If this is what you want, more power to you - but if so, for god's sake, don't vote for Democrats or Republicans or any of these beltway losers, except possibly Kucinich. Honestly, I more than sympathize with wanting to have hope - hope is what keeps us going. What you're proposing though doesn't even map to reality. Not even close.
dmia (12/14 12:41a),
Thank you!! I've been slapped silly on this site for advocating the election of Democrats, and it's more than gratifying to find another person writing here who "gets it" that doing so is the only practical alternative to electing more Republicans.
You have a good list of what Democrats won't be able to do to create our "liberals' utopia". And here's some more things Democrats won't be doing if we get them in the White House and Congress.
Democrats won't make the Bush tax cuts permanent and abolish the gift and estate tax in 2010.
Democrats won't attempt to privatize Social Security.
Democrats won't defund Medicare and SCHIP.
Democrats won't spend as much on new nuclear weopons.
Democrats won't have either a John Ashcroft of an
Alberto Gonzales as Attorney General.
Democrats won't use a Colin Powell, then throw him away.
Democrats won't appoint "strict constructionists" to the Supreme Court or any lower court.
Democrats won't put a political hack in charge of FEMA.
Democrats won't gut the SEC, FDA, CPSC, EEOC, OSHA & IRS.
Democrats won't spend time trying to bust unions.
Democrats won't ask for constitutional amendments against gays, or against any other segment of society.
Democrats will not needlessly escalate whatever they find themselves left with on the "war on terror".
Democrats will probably scrap NCLB and appropriate funds for smaller classes, the only sensible school remedy.
Democrats will not kiss the boots of insurance and credit card companies.
I could go on, of course, but hey, readers would be better advised to go back and read dmia's post again.
A lot was said there.
restive -
it's only by the sheerist chance that I snuck a final glance here, looking for further responses to what I'd posted earlier on the subject of (possibly) improving this site and maybe like-sites. I'd pretty much dropped the idea, after scant response to it, earlier.
I'll try to quick-answer some of the questions posed above, being excessively repetitive while doing so -- forgive that, please (I sometimes have trouble expressing simple ideas simply):
The basic idea I put-out earlier, on several another posts, is simple in initial intent: Sites like this - and especially this empassioned site -need another dimension that allows the OPTION for people to talk directly to each other -- including talking about ways this site, itself, can be improved and made more people-interactive; also to let posters initiate articles of their own, about political reform ACTIONS and other topics. Also, to provide a way (while protecting screen anonymity) for posters/subscribers to (thus maybe?) find out who their same-town neighbors are -which could in turn help people talk and better-organize progressive political actions, locally, face-to-face.
Altho it's roughly possible to do all this, right now with the present CD site arrangement, it's very cumbersome. W/o a more-directly interactive subscriber Forum page, the continuity of talk and strategizing, and the OPTION for local, in-person meeting, is really, almost crippled. True, another totally different site could be created by one of us, for these purposes, but it wouldn't have the 150,000 hits-per-day-headstart that Common Dreams already has - nor probably, the drawing power that CD has established (at least, not for a long start-up time.).
I don't have the cyberspace skill to even know whether this, or a new, site could accommodate the kinds of features I propose; nor do I have any idea how CD owners/editors would react to the suggestion for an open Forum page (i.e., a page more or less supervised by us CD subscribers, within pre-set, CD-approved rules.)
I DO have the distinct feeling that most of the real-world-action energy potential, on this site, just goes into the infindibulum. We participants have no way of knowing if our shared reform energy, here, is having any useful effect on ourselves or the outer world; and no way of easily finding out or discussing what to do about it. We can't even internally poll ourselves on various questions --something which could be quite useful on diverse proceedural and philosophical/learning levels
Am open forum page, added to CD, could posssibly help us cohere what's now, just an endless, UNorganized and rapidly flowing sequence of editor-given subjects and poster responses. So rapid, that even a momentary collective gelling of action-talk/planning can not stay in focus for long -- wittness this fragmented posting exchange itself....
If enough of us can agree that this too-rapid flow of communication is a site structural/functional problem, then the fist step is to ask the editors provide an open, isloated page we can go to (besides the news articles/opinion postings), where we can optionally slow down, and foucs on the various processes/ideas I mention above.
All we'ed need, for now, is a editor-provided poster-open sub-page on which posters can talk to each other about how to improve personal interactiveness on this site, free of, but not displacing, the editors' 'flow of articles' part of CD.
The editors would need to create an initial, open sub-page, a priori; the understood focus of which would be for subscribers to first use it to more finely fashion the same. Some regular poster we trust from among us, could be appointed, by provisional polling of subscriber by CD editors, as provisional sub-page supervisor (I would't want the job; I don't have the free time or the technical skill - though as a former state legislator, I do have some other, reasonably experienced organizing skills, and could help fashion ground rules for a CD Forum page, as a take-it-or-leave-it unofficial advisor.)
CD editors are probably only likely to consider this exploratory, ultimately participant-designed site addition if enough regular posters ask for it in credible numbers.
What would 'credible numbers' be, in this case? I don't know. I guess we'ed have to ask them.
Some of what I'm proposing here is groping and imprecise, granted. But enough of it speaks to something I think most of us feel: The need to try to create a closer sense of democratic flesh-and-blood community thru cyberspace.
One possible downside to everything I suggest, here, is that such an interactive website forum would make the job of government snooping agents (and similar anti-democratic forces) much easier. This is a reasonable concern, though not enough of one, for me, anyway, to be self-intimidated by it. I still am wary enough to want the OPTION to keep my screen anonymity, as many others are, too, no doubt. On the other hand -and ironically: From the little I do know of cyberspace mechanics, it's technically possible, even right now, for any electronic posting to be traced by government spying equipment, to its geographic source/street address (whether with or without a court order -- being a moot point.
But I don't see the Forum page as place where groundrules would allow posting of advocacy for clearly criminal actions. If such a forum page did expand in function and political potency, though, in the way I envision, it likely would be more closely monitored by government types. This possibility may be of concern to some, but it would not be to me, I know; nor, I suspect, to many others. While many of us absolutely want the option to retain screen anonymity (for what little it may be worth against illegally-acting G-men), this is where, I think, most of us would drawn the line between wary caution and self-censorship of our own, personal 1st Amendment rights. When you feel the need to censor youself even against your own 'anonymous' talk of political reform, you realize that that level of caution is not workable. It's fully self-defeating. It hands the country over to fascism, not only in absence of a decent bang of resistance, but also without so much as an audible whimper of resistance.
A CD Forum page may well be monitored more closely by this government's national security apparatus, than is the regular part of Common Dreams no so-monitored. This should not intimidate us. The useful questions, here, are: would such a CD Forum page be of use to us progressives? Adn how can we even discuss that, unless such a page is created a priori?
Nelson Terry
I subscribe to the Chronicle, so I read Morford's article Friday. So I'm glad to be able to speak here since the Chron isn't great about publishing letters.
I have to support Whole Foods? I can't complain about anti-union practices? I have to support Clinton?
The problem with little-step incrementalism is that it doesn't work. While time is taken to put the bandaid on your finger, they are sawing off your leg. Like Lenin titled one of his works: "One Step Forward, Two Steps Back." I'm too old for that shit. I say, "Go for the gold." Vote and work for what you want to see happen, not for the least you'll settle for.
Nelson:
Did you read my post, 1/3 of the way up, labeled "Special Announcement"? Please join the group and re-post your message above into it.
I invite all CD readers to consider joining a discussion group whose purpose is to try to find ways to make cooperation toward our Progressive goals easier, more fun, and more effective.
If you're anxious to convert your hopes into reality, this meeting is for you. Please join us, and get your ideas on the table for everyone to think about.
Sorry, but here's just another drunken hippie grandparent knocking at your door. John Mackey of Whole Foods is a committed anti-union anti-regulatory libertarian. Whole Foods isn't an institution for societal good, it is a corporation and hence exhibits the psychopathic personality that is inherent to all of that ilk. How sad that you must resort to ad hominam attack rather than offering logical justification for your accepting Mackey on balance as good for our world despite his virulent anti-unionism and his total unwillingness to contemplate governmental regulation as a necessary precursor to environmental health.
This article helps to realize that there is no such thing as moderation. Why do we have to label ourselves? To make it easier for the media to continue to inflame feelings of hate?
A great way for the so called status quo to continue is to have people on both sides of the spectrum yelling/screaming/kicking at each other.
As long as labels/stereotypes continue, there will be no progress. The best that can be done is to help others you come across in your life. With that being said, I have to go find some more people and help them register to vote...
Thanks for understanding, mairs!
I really don't want or need your permission, but it's nice to get it, I suppose.
Of course, now I know how Bart Simpson felt when twins Sherry and Terry shrieked "Ruiner!" at him. But I'll get over it. Good luck with the Lesser Evil thing, BTW.
I applaud above article because once again a progressive has the stones to give constructive criticism to his own side. To me it seems like everytime there is so much as a spark in the fire pit all the progressives dump all their wood and kindling in to smother the fire? One stick at a time people.
I need to remind all those in this discussion of a few pertinent facts:
1. The US's steady reactionary descent has not been going for at least 30 years now. It is longer-lived than any political movement so far in US history.
2. It has been going on under both Democratic and Republican presidential administrations and congressional majorities. The Clinton administration is most notable with this regard.
3. And, as far as Whole Foods, considering the co-ops, unionized grocery stores, and small family businesses that it and it's kin are replacing, it is not to be considered even incremental progress - it is quite the opposite.
Do MM, Barney Frank, Rahm Immanuel, and other Republican moles remember anything beyond yesterday, or is it they think Democratic voters don't remember anything beyond yesterday? The fact is that *centrists* - not left-wingers - have controlled the Democratic Party going back to 1992 at least, and the result has been a disaster for the country. First we had 8 years of Clinton/Gore and the Democrats couldn't even get a 0.5 mpg increase in the CAFE standard through Congress - let alone a healthcare plan - and the power of corporations and the police and military industrial complexes grew by leaps and bounds. Now we've had 6 more years of Democratic capitulations, and this continuing political imbalance has left the U.S. mired in foreign conflict and teetering on the brink of fascism.
Clearly the very last thing this country needs is for *centrists* to remain in control of the Democratic Party, and I'm sorry, but any progressive in their right mind will vote for a Republican - yes, a REPUBLICAN! - over Hillary Clinton. Progressives need to face that we live in a two-party system and there is no way to correct politics in this country until we correct the Democratic Party, which in turn is never going to happen until we sweep people like MM and the Clintons off the stage. I know some here will say *I could never vote for a Republican,* but the truth is that if you vote for Hillary or Obama or even Edwards, you ARE voting for a Republican, and what's worse, you are insuring that this country will continue its slide to the right.
All of you who want things perfect before you'll give your stamp of approval, go ahead and ruin things again and vote for Nader. "If it's not perfect, I'm going to vote for continuing things just the way they are".
Well Said MM !
I'm forcing myself to keep my knee-jerk reactionary nature in check, especially two-cups deep of organic, shade-grown coffee. I certainly hope it's fair trade!
A nice reality check this article brings. Though with the inundation of miserable world events these days, can you blame us uber-progressives?
I'll paraphrase a paraphrase from Nobel Laureate Al Gore. "There's an African saying, that if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. We need to go far. Fast."
I certainly hope all the frustration & idealism that's been building in all of us, for what seems like forever, will reach that "critical mass" sooner than later. If not, I'll try to mellow out and accept gradual change. But, somehow I doubt that'll ever happen.
************ Special Announcement ****************
For those of you that think the CommonDreams community is ready to take the next step, and build some tools that help us work as a team, we've got a meeting room set aside to hammer out the details.
I just set up a temporary Yahoo Group called CommonDreams Tiger Team. You can post to it, or join it.
To join, send an e-mail to:
cdtigers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Purpose of the CommonDreams Tiger Team
This group will develop a vision, a set of requirements, and a technical design for a communications tool that helps Progressives turn their dreams for a better world into reality. When we're done, we'll submit our proposal to CommonDreams for their review, and hopefully for implementation.
I nominate Nelson Terry or a member of the CommonDreams management team to manage this facility. I will act as interim group manager until my successor is named.
I encourage everyone that wants to help move the Progressive community into high gear to pounce on this opportunity to zero in on the key issue we face: EFFECTIVENESS.
We have a lot of great ideas. Now we need to get really good at implementation. Come one, come all!
For those of you that have already expressed a number of ideas and suggestions on this topic, may I invite you to re-post your ideas on this group, so they're all in one place, and everyone can see where this idea came from, and what the current thinking on the topic is.
Just send an e-mail to:
cdtigers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
And you'll get signed up, and you'll be able to see the history of the project, and all the working docs (statement of purpose, requirements, design docs, pix, etc.) that we put together to get this job done.
For those of you that are worried about security and privacy, I cannot vouch for the motivation and/or tactics of Yahoo. If you're worried, don't join. I expect our efforts to be eminently law-abiding and beyond reproach; our plan will be to simply steam-roller them with raw numbers. Sun Tzu would surely approve.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture.html
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture.html
Watch Pinter & remember what leadership means!
I am a take no prisoners vegan liberal who has been forced to compromise my principles at least a little.
To me Whole Foods is a quantum leap forward in so many ways.
I understand the negatives regarding the way Whole Foods operates but when compared to the other supermarket conglomerates they are miniscule by comparison.
Walking into Whole Foods is like going to paradise for me. Where else can a vegetarian find so many delightful choices?
An endless variety of organic produce and pies and manufactured foods made with vegan ingredients a dream come true for a 30-year vegetarian who has had to wander the desert aimlessly looking for good healthy conscientious food.
I have a problem with union busting companies especially if they treat their employees badly but from all the personal conversations I have had with Whole Food workers they seem content.
While they are not perfect in every way it is extremely encouraging to see a supermarket promoting healthy food become successful, especially in the meat and potatoes and the unrecognizable junk food America.
Anniesee mentions Harold Pinter's Nobel Lecture from December 2005 where he states:
"I believe that despite the enormous odds which exist, unflinching, unswerving, fierce intellectual determination, as citizens, to define the real truth of our lives and our societies is a crucial obligation which devolves upon us all. It is in fact mandatory.
If such a determination is not embodied in our political vision we have no hope of restoring what is so nearly lost to us - the dignity of man"
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1208-28.htm
When a real leader like Pinter speaks, our sights are set higher than the 'better consumerism' of a Mark Morford. Our visionaries keep getting shot down or ignored while the pragmatists and 'good shoppers' enjoy telling us what a great life they have. Since Morford likes comparisons and understands simple ones, here's one for him: Morford, take your favorite fluffy little article, your best one, and compare it to the above speech by Harold Pinter. Sit back with a glass of wine and consider how sad it is that your own life has been reduced to championing iPods (we know you own stock in Apple) and now praising union-busting Whole Foods. Perhaps you could reflect on how puerile you obsession with dildos has been? I don't know. I'm just one of your disappointed readers but I've never sent you a whining letter. I'm writing this for the readers of this forum and you may be one of them.
I raise my glass in celebration of Harold Pinter and his spirit.
Cheers!
A recent poll put Congressional approval ratings at 11%. It must just be progressive liberal whiners that put it there.
NOT!
Lobo Gris
Dear Mark,
You'll never make everybody happy, just be content that you have made a lot of people better informed.
Try staying away from praising mega huge gigantic multi-billion dollar corporations then you'll be cool.
FYI: you did sound a bit whiny yourself.
The forum suggestion is a good place to start and I'm all for it but what will make it different than the many other progressive internet forums?
I have suggested on too many occasions that we need to organize a real alternative platform and run candidates (nationally and locally). On the national level, there are well known and respected activists and writers we could consider. Most of us seem to be aware that the "liberal" head of the Corporate Party is useless so this is what we need to do. A CD forum could be useful in getting this started as well an instigating other acts of organization and resistance (though real organization needs to happen where the feds aren't monitoring).
Morford referred to Christian fundamentalists...my own personal problem with them is not what they believe, but the fact that they think everyone else has to believe what they believe.
He criticized progressives for the same thing, trying to make everyone believe what they believe, drawing a parallel between the Christian right and the "uber progressives" (as soon as you insert the German word it signifies "fascist").
Is this analogy accurate? Let's see. The Christian right wants, for example, to outlaw abortion, whereas an "uber progressive" wants to protect a woman's right to choose. An "uber progressive" wants to protect a worker's right to unionize, the envrionment, anti-human corporate practices...seems like a series of goals dedicated to enhancing human life and freedom for all, rather than taking away freedoms.
This is an article telling me, an "uber progressive," what I should and shouldn't believe, that my beliefs are silly and un-strategic...seems like sort of a fascist move to me. How about just respecting my right to my beliefs, Morford? I'm not quite sure what the foundation of your beliefs consists of, other than willful blindness and easy compromise.
Zealot first, flavour second.
zealot, progressive
zealot, evangelical
zealot, libertarian
zealot, neocon
zealot, "Price is Right" fan
zealot, ....... (please fill in the blank)
My life is simple, I hate everybody.
Dafoe: what, you want actual change? You whiny commie sycophant *winks* lol
All sounds good to me...
Extreme progressive, whiny liberals and on and on so there is a compartment for every shade and stripe.There is little difference between the Dems and The Reps or whatever the in term is today. The GOP has its sheep and now we have Morford who wants to have sheep for the Democrats. I view corporations with a jaundiced eye (put me in the "commie" slot on this one, a whiny commie to ark back to another age), they don't build nations they will devour them so why should we kow tow to them. If they don't work for the commonweal then remove their license to operate, after all why have a nation if you are not interested in the well being of the nation.
Change the system from a two party system to a multi party system and have a more
representative system. Stop the outsourcing done by those nation building corporations.
OuterBeltway, restive et al - a forum is a great idea, have no technical expertise to make it happen though. The slashdot model seems like it would work well..
About moderation - I'd rather there not be any to be honest, having to use a CD handle should block spam..
OuterBeltway:
"If Nelson puts out a vision statement, I'd be glad to do the first cut at producing a requirements doc. Would you be willing to covert the reqmts to a design doc, or at least evaluate slashdot (or other open-source tools) for suitability?"
Sure - if we use slashdot or some other existing tool though, we may not need that as much as a change doc, as needed. Either way, sure. :) Usual caveats about being busy blah blah apply, but I'm down.
The article is right in that there is certainly something to be said against leftist infighting. On the other hand, voting for Dennis Kucinich is not a thoughtcrime and being opposed to Barack Obama is not unreasonable.
The unreasonable thing is when the leaders of this country constantly refuse to listen to the majority of its citizens. Then they are being extremists, not us. Kucinich stands with the majority, others do not.
I can see you don't appreciate whiners.
I bet the SF Chronicle doesn't whine about you either. You must improve their circulation, being balanced,
intelligent, informed, progressive, evolved, hopeful, and juicy, to borrow some of the words in your piece, that seem to have your approval.
I count about 45 things in this piece you say you don't like, while you appear to approve of about 35.
The ones I like that you like are: Progressive movement, appearance of creating something good in the world, moving things forward, upending the status quo, new thinking, and/or screwing, agreement, understanding, clarity, healthy disagreement, discussion,, valid points of contention, impressive strides in environmental awareness or product design, yoga loving, employee-supporting, industry-upending revolutionary, progress and evolution, informed, intellegent commentators, zeal that results in positive outcome, enlightment, gay marriage, wars end, dancing dolphins, trees, and everybody getting something.
And there are a few things that you like, that I'm not so sure of.
But, of course, we do agree rabid zealotry and brutal absolutism , and exact accord, can lead to impossible standards of behavior, whether we like them or not.
As everyone knows, everyone has lists of things, at least in their heads, that they are not too fond of, and certainly I agree that some of the things you dislike, don't please me much either.
Take your mention of 'moronic groups', as an example. I have to say I'm not a big joiner anyway, but if I ever saw a group of morons, I probably wouldn't feel that comfortable joining them.
You mention sreechers, haters, whiners, wailing, grunting, those who put mom n' pops out-of-business, the bitter, the too strict, the sneering, the dissatisfied, the slappers, the drunk hippy grandparents, the uber-shovers, those with repressed desires, those of brutal absolutism, those of the dogma-stomped society, those with impossible world views, those who promote sexual, idelogical or moral lockdown(?), those who desire complete destruction of gay culture, those who desire complete destruction of abortion rights, those who harbor extremism, (so deep in their bowels that no amount of uber-zeal will ever be able to upend and expose it, either to the light of evolution, or a positive outcome of any nature) those who are pissed, or disgusted, and those with impossible standards of behavior.
Was it Lincoln who said his enemies were cheap, but his friends were thrifty?
Was not Atom energy 'the appearance of creating some sort of good in the world'? I don't think anyone puts it in a straw, with their cocaine now, do they.
Didn't George Bush, just the other day, say he wanted to 'move things forward'?
Isn't praise for the Wholefoods juggernaught, praise for the juggernaught? Isn't a juggernaught something that elicits blind destructive devotion, or, to which people are sacrificed? Isn't it an overwhelming advancing force that crushes, or seems to crush, everything in it's path?
Is impressive strides in environmental awareness or product design a car manufactuer who designs a more stream-lined car so it will go faster, and have more market appeal, or so it will get better mileage?
Can any enity that has a legal obligation to make profit from many, for the few, be progressive? Was the man who stated 'Behind every fortune is a crime' absolutely incorrect?
Would anyone say 'abortion rights could include aborting the fetus if it was possible to determine the sexual orientation, religious beliefs, or lack of, IQ, political affiliation, or any other characteristic that one or both parents deemed unacceptable?
I once met a couple who taught yoga, who offered me a free private session, so I went for it. It made me feel so good I couldn't stand it, and I never went back. Me and Edith Piaf.
Morford has it exactly right, and this is the reason why a Republican will be elected in 2008. Too many left wingers are pissing and moaning about something that Clinton or Obama or Edwards or Richardson or some other Democratic candidate did.
HELLO PEOPLE! THIS IS THE REAL WORLD! You can have 8 more years of fascism under a Republican administration, or you can have something better under a Democratic administration. A Democrat may not be everything you are dreaming of. For example.....
A Democratic administration will not abolish all corporations. (And by the way, some of us who have not yet reached employment Nirvana still make our livings from corporations.)
A Democratic administration will not provide us all with unlimited services while collecting no taxes.
A Democratic administration will not be able to make every Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, and what have in the world embrace and sing "KUM BY YA".
A Democratic administration will not enable us all to sit at home unemployed smoking pot, reading Thoreau, thinking original thoughts, and surviving from the nourishment of fruits, berries, twigs, nuts and bottled water. (Some of the lucky few will however be able to do so.)
A Democratic may not be able to cause the clouds to open up revealing angels trumpeting the coming of the risen Christ.
A Democratic administration may not be perfect.
But as God is my witness, it will be better than 8 more years of every man, woman and child in this country being forced to bend to the whims of a dishonest, stealing, cheating, racist, and just plain evil Republican administration.
If a Democrat is inaugurated in January of 2009, the status of the United States will be instantly lifted around the world.
If a Democrat is inaugurated in January of 2009, we will once again be able to look to the future instead of obsess on the past.
If a Democrat is inaugurated in January of 2009, there will be a chance for our children to live out there natural lives as opposed to being wiped off the face of the earth by a nuclear war.
And I am one left winger who can live with that.
Well, I got a chuckle out of this article.
I don't know how they are as political tacticians, but I'd think about asking the following people (off the top of my head) if they can recommend somebody not connected to either political party but who is concerned about how to get America back to its Constitutional roots. I'm sure you can think of others:
Jimmy Carter
John Dean?
Amy Goodman
Naomi Klein
Bill Moyers
Keith Olberman
I'm in for what I can offer. My only fear is that that will not be much. You'll get what I have to give though.
myscreennamehere@gmail.com (edited for spam prevention)
Restive:
If Nelson puts out a vision statement, I'd be glad to do the first cut at producing a requirements doc. Would you be willing to covert the reqmts to a design doc, or at least evaluate slashdot (or other open-source tools) for suitability? NeoMonk, do you want to participate in this?
Before we get to that design doc, we need Nelson and CD et. al. to make the commitment to review and vet the requirements, and the design, and if/when a prototype is delivered that's good enough, to do the promotional work to direct the movers and shakers of CD toward this new facility. Is "management" ready to take on something like this?
Would anyone else want to take a shot at the technical design, or the look-and-feel, or the brand, or the promotional tactics? What about coming up with a list of the top-10 most successful Progressive tacticians in the country, so we can get them on a conference call, and pick their brains? Anyone care to drop some names? I have no idea who the great talents are.
daniel david --"and then join in re-centering our country in 2008"
Wow ! Any more of these 're-centering' iterations and the entire country will be as right-wing as Carolina or some such state !!
I thought i could put up with Morford till i read his article above and he bared his vapid soul. Morford belongs to that peculiar SF class -- Socially ultra-liberal ... economically and politically apathetic or mainstream. His limited intelligence doesnt permit him to analyze anything that remotely concerns socio-economic conditions and the politics that affect it.
Mark ... this is not about you so quit whining !
If it's closeminded, it isn't liberal or conservative. It's closeminded.
"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything." G.B. Shaw
Well, the changes (from the starting point of slashdot.org) that I'd like to see made to slashcode for a forum of this type are:
New moderation categories at the LEAST. Actually, I don't know how conductive slashdot moderation would be here.
I'm up in the air about the necessity of an 'Anonymous Coward' posting ability in the context of this forum. It's fine (and needed, IMHO) on slashdot, but not so much here, I wouldn't think. We don't seem to mind owning up to our own comments here. (at least to the point of not hiding our screen names)
The categories for the main articles are nice, but (of course) need to be updated to relevant sub-categories of progressive/liberal news instead of technology.
(not a change but) I think this site could hugely benefit from something like slashdot's firehose system, where people recommend articles and the user population vote on bringing it up to the main page headline area.
...
Really though, I think slashcode would do just fine, and in fact solve a few of the social difficulties (like picking even more relevant articles) in software, democratically. One last suggestion would be a tiny IRC (or webchat, but I like IRC cause it's built for the job, not html) server for those of us online simultaneously....
Heh, in fact, that's something we could do TODAY. I don't frequent DALNet much, but from what I remember it's nick/channel (especially channel) registration and control functions could do us well. I for one would likely be a heavy lurker/chatscroller of #commondreams....
These are the kinds of things I think about when I'm scrolling through comment 56 of 118 here on Common Dreams and my eyes/brain starts to hurt from following the various conversational threads all jumbled up in a straight line.
"You are right smack on the mark. I am indeed cranky. I was appalled that the response to Nelson's suggestion wasn't nuk-le-er, at a minimum. The man deserved a grand-stand-shakin' dose of approbation. We should have stormed the field en masse."
I like your spirit. Installing slashdot or something equivalent sounds good, as does getting requirements set up. I'd add a design spec to that as well, once the requirements are nailed down.
i think this writer hits the nail on the head - the infighting of the antiwar movement in general is more than embarrassing.
we boycott each other and we expect to stop the neocon war machine.
moveon.org has been criticized for their ad about the betrayus thing, when they were, as it turns out, right about the lying bastard.
it was a newspaper ad and the response, from all sides, was ridiculous.
it is a sad statement about us all that we have no focus on a strategy to stop an unjust war but we can obsess over a an ad concerning a political general lying about a war that no one wants, for political reasons.
then a motion in the chambers to avow this liar.
i read today in the news that general betrayus could wind up being a republican candidate in the next election.
while we back stab and in fight.
then there was the anti war rally last week that had 300 attendees.
too bad they weren't spartans.
"just because someone doesn't completley agree with you doesn't mean that they are evil or the enemy."
Sure, but does that mean that WF is beyond reproach?
Restive:
You are right smack on the mark. I am indeed cranky. I was appalled that the response to Nelson's suggestion wasn't nuk-le-er, at a minimum. The man deserved a grand-stand-shakin' dose of approbation. We should have stormed the field en masse.
Neomunk: You, my friend, are the man of the hour. I can do the systems work (as can dozens of others reading this post) necessary to implement what Nelson is proposing.
The thing we need the most is a set of requirements.
Nelson, pray tell: In your nirvana of emotion-and-effort-focusing tools, what are the deliverables, the results of this system? Is it groups forming, it it decisions taken, is it policy agreed upon...what are the "intermediate results", the steps ("milestones") we need to achieve on the way toward the holy grail of coherent action across hundreds of thousands of outraged thinking people across the land?
Remember, this system has to be functionally and qualitatively quite different from CD. It won't be about philosophy. It'll be about getting agreement, assigning responsibility, allocating resources, sharing info about what works, about finding the people that are doing what you want to see done, and joining them.
Can you (Nelson) articulate a vision about what you're aiming for?
Restive and NeoMonk: Please add your 2c. Others out there that are sick of just complaining, take out your stick and whack this Pinata!
While I agree with some of the threads in this article, we really need to come to understand that extreme times call for extreme responses.
The Bush regime has possibly caused the deaths of a million civilians in Iraq since the first Gulf War, and given a new training ground for anti-american sentiment. Billions are being squandered. Nukes being moved contary to ordinary operating procedures. What's not to be extreme about, in reaction to it all? What's the "centered" response here? Perhaps killing a couple hundred thousand is okay, perhaps making a mistake with only 1-2 nukes (as opposed to 2-3 times that) is fine? And maybe just a little torture now and again is acceptable?
There are some things really worth getting in a huff about. And yes while some of the reaction resembles the rigidity of the far-right, the content and direction is totally different.
I agree with others here on the PC thing, and on consumption. These aren't binary issues (kill thousands of civilians or not, torture or not). PC and consumption are matters of degree, gradations, etc.
So there are really two classes of problems, and they warrant two classes of response. (1) The binary sort (nuke Iran or not), and (2) the degreed/shades-of-gray sort: how much energy is your household going to expend this winter, etc.
Alrighty, after a quick scout, I've returned with a little (hopefully useful) info.
Here is the URL of the FAQ belonging to the forum software I mentioned above:
http://www.slashcode.com/faq.shtml
If you're not familiar with the style of board I'm talking about, try this:
http://slashdot.org/
That page has basic instructions for installing a slashcode forum. Unfortunately I have exactly 0 experience with apache, the same amount of experience with perl and not enough experience with MySQL. I suppose I could create a virtualized linux box to try and set this up in, but I'll be groping in the dark.
Any thoughts/comments?
"This guy is pleading for action. What's he get? Read it and weep. Do you know why Progressives don't have any political power? Simple. They think eloquent bitching is somehow a substitute for action."
Hun, Nelson's post was two days ago. Could it be that you're just as frustrated as the rest of us, and as a result, getting PO'd because of it? If so, trust me, you ain't alone.
Now as for using CD as an organizing tool - I'm all for it. Also, I saw several people express support for Nelson's idea, as well as some others say they supported the idea, but that they were busy with other projects.
The best advice I saw though was to stop waiting for a green light and just do it. It's what I've come to learn with my projects - if I see something that needs doing, waiting around for people to get as excited as I am is a losing battle, but saying "frig it, I'm doing it anyway" rarely bites me in the butt. In fact, it's pretty much the key to my success as an organizer. Further, given the amount of traffic on CD, not to mention the quality of many of the posts here, it would be a very successful project.
Nelson, if you're reading this: where are things at?
OutBeltway: I didn't see that post before (I had read that article too early in the day and did not come back to it) but it mirrors something I've been thinking about for a long time. Unfortunately I don't have the needed technical expertise to implement such a design, but I -DO- have an idea where it could get it's base from.
The website slashdot.org has (in my opinion) a good format for ongoing discussions of the type we have here on common dreams. I think the moderation system would need be redesigned (or even altogether scrapped) but the threaded comment model is superbly implemented.
I THINK (pretty sure, not completely sure) that the code for slashdot is freely available as open source, and as such could be modified for our purposes here.
I'm a technical user, but I'm no coder, and don't know anything about web applications, but seeing that others think it's a good idea (I've been kicking something like this around in my head for awhile, but not necessarily affiliated with Common Dreams) I'll head out to the wild web and see if I can dig anything up. BBIAB.
Bleeeechh!
Another massive dose of impotent outrage. All these posters excoriate Morford for "selling out" to accomodation. He's a villain because he's willing to take "little steps" when it's obvious that major strides are required.
Now let's watch the fireworks as we collide two universes, shall we? Just for fun, I refer you to a parallel thread, right here at CD, wherein an intrepid poster said "hey, let's turn all that outrage into constructive action! Let's build some new CD tools that enable us to band together, and take concrete action to solve these problems. What do you say?"
The answer was a galactic, horizon-to-horizon "THUD".
None of you outraged Progessives offered to lift a finger. Ya couldn't even muster a "Hey, yeah, let's find a way to work together and get something accomplished"
So, my dear purists, I wonder if you'd consider directing some of your cosmic rage and self-righteousness beyond the realm of "posting to the choir" and actually DO something?
If you take umbrage at my remarks, and I surely hope you do, I refer to you the post made by Nelson Terry, a third of the way down the page at this recent CD article:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/11/4484/
This guy is pleading for action. What's he get? Read it and weep. Do you know why Progressives don't have any political power? Simple. They think eloquent bitching is somehow a substitute for action.
Morford is really saying that baby steps are all we can possibly hope for, because we Progressives don't have sense enough to quit complaining and actually do something about all the problems we see.
Hey, sorry for the sarcasm. I know I shouldn't use that tactic, but please, can we somehow actually do something around here instead of all this well-intentioned pontification?
'Too many words exhaust the empty center'. This is from the ancient Tao te Ching.
In this case 'center' is not political but rather spiritual locus. 'Empty' is not pejorative. In this case one might say that it means that all the words flying around have become an as yet unrecognized 'vessel', its utility is in its emptiness. Our modes of identifying conditions are in the process of moving from 'content' to description of a condition and framework. Isn't there a beauty to this?
Imperfection as noted by Traumarei is something the poor of the rest of the world are all too familiar with and of necessity patient and resilient, drawing from what is known in the quotidian. Its a journey and we're called to journey together. It doesn't happen with armament. Take heart MM.
mountaineer-Every word you wrote is in my 59 year old head. Thanks.
God, neomunk, you're such a whiner. Loosen up! :P
Thanks, restive, Dichterfreund and everyone for this rousing set of comments. I think I've just reclaimed a little of the fire I'd lost. I'll take your advice and join the fray whenever and wherever I can.
:-)
FEISAL (Alec Guinness):
"With Col. Lawrence, mercy is a passion; with me, it is merely good manners. You may judge which is the more reliable."
Robert Bolt
"Lawrence of Arabia"
And the schism widens.
Pretty soon there will be an article derisive of progressives because we don't support, cherish and worship BP and Shell, because, hey, don't you see how GREEN they are now? I mean, they have to be, that's what their PR departments say.
Yet again another Ivory Tower limo-liberal telling me that I'm just being foolish for paying attention. Telling me I'm ruining things by looking at the obvious symptoms of cause and effect.
You feel the need to capitulate and sell-out to everyone who pretends to be 'the good guys' because you don't actively see them drowning puppies in a bathtub, that's fine. Quit being so offended when people point out your naivety though.
If you think Whole Foods is great because it allows you to placate your conscience's warnings against your consumer lifestyle, all the while watching it destroy local economies in the name of 'progress', that's fine. Quit mistaking cognitive dissonance with conscientious compromise though.
If you think that the semi-moderate conservatives calling themselves 'Democrats' will somehow (against all evidence) save us from the further national degradation, environmental destruction or the widening income/power gap, that's fine. Quit being surprised when other people pay enough attention to actual events (as opposed to pundantry) to know you're lying to yourself.
And for all your snide little jabs, you still don't adequately explain how fighting for ACTUAL progress is either somehow un-progressive or somehow automatically more disruptive to progress than constant capitulation and one-sided 'compromise' to the regressive crowd.
I think the REAL question is, why do these 'moderates' insist on ignoring the fact that every progressive candidate was announced (and the pronouncement accepted and repeated) 'unelectable'? Why do these 'moderates' insist on supporting the current and even another war (as if that's somehow the 'safe' path) through their support of 'moderate' candidates? (2013 people, remember that, war until AT LEAST 2013, promised by the 'moderates') Most importantly, why do these 'moderates' continue to offer whiny (a charge Mr Morford offers in the spirit of the proverbial pot/kettle tradition) excuses for their leaders' inability (I'm being generous here) to even PROPOSE real progressive legislation and for their CONSTANT support of the neocon's CONTINUING (there's an important clue) march toward fascism.
Bahhhh, I'm tired of wasting my time with this. Most everyone who cares even a drop already knows what the political landscape looks like, and everyone has already made their choices. I'm just mortified by the fact that so many people have chosen the path of proven-ineffectiveness, proven regression, hell, proven atrocity.
Not in my name though, that I promise. Think long and hard about supporting war until 2013. Do you really want that blood on your hands? You're going to have it if you support the corporate Dems, because they've already promised you that's what you'll get. No ifs, ands or buts about it, they've already told you, and you can't spin it away. Doom and terror for another 6 years AT LEAST.
Yeah, that's awfully progressive.
Mark Morford,
Instead of feeling offended and becoming defensive (or snide) regarding the negative or critical feedback you received regarding your Whole Foods article, why not step back for a moment, try to be (more) objective and think about whether there's any merit (value, justification) in those remarks. If you don't like the heat, stay out of the "Whole Foods" kitchen. ;)
#
restive October 13th, 2007 2:19 pm
It's not a matter of us wanting perfection, or being whiny. It's a matter of us not agreeing with you...
--------------
Thank you Restive for articulating what I wanted to say.
Baby steps? Indeed! Baby steps are for babies. So is pabulum, whether it comes from Morford (a la his piece on Whole Foods), or whether it comes from a Dem or a Repub or whomever.
I consider this essay "The Whine of A Voracious Whole Foods Customer". Please! Let us all be able to have and afford whole food. All people, from all corners of this planet. Why should whole, healthy, organic food be available only to those who have enough money to purchase it? And shouldn't all food be organic? It once was.
I also wonder if the employees of Whole Foods can afford to shop there? Don't have a clue about this situation, but it's a good and valid question. Yes?
Many thanks to Restive, Conrad, LittleBrother, and others for your thoughtful remarks.
"Morford et al are asking that we slur over the definitions, blur the lines, not interrupt hearings."
Not interrupt hearings...god, the number of times I've been at a hearing where some "liberal" official was selling folks down the river, and when people balked, they threatened to have protesters arrested. To be fair, politicians from both the left and right do this - but if anything, that just underscores the point that the underlying issue right now isn't left or right, but decency or cowardice.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Needed clarities, Mark Mofford. Thanks.
I have a re-mastered CD of Kate Smith singing "God Bless America," recorded a few weeks after VJ day in 1945 - years before I was born.
As I heard it occasionally, later as a scruffy kid in the '50's, on my parents' LP machine, it filled me with a strong but imprecise sense of what a loveable national identity must be when it's Really Good. Still later I came to understand that that identity in the end has to be supra-national and humanly/humbly noble, above and beyond everything else that worldly strength might require.
And I don't mean the God references in the song; I just mean the depth of feeling in Smith's voice, and the beautiful energy of the audience, as she singingly represents what everybody then felt about the USA.
America vanquished European fascism - a madly murderous evil -- and then out of a self-imperfect but still-deep decency, it (those Americans) embraced their former enemies; rebuilt their ruined cities, and called on them to be civilized friends.
This world (including our country) is violently imperfect. But to see what America was once capable of within our gross human imperfections, makes me cry. I think it's good to let ourselves cry about that high point in our history. And then use the energy of those hot, fierce tears to fight again - this time from within - to re-ground that deeper decency we foolishly let go.
Anniesee, thanks for the link back to Pinter's lecture. His reception of the Prize & the lecture that year were gleaming islands in a very dark sea.
"I live in a Red State, Bible Belt at that. You must forgive my having needed to become somewhat wishy-washy during my few years here."
I recommend "Asphalt Jesus", an account written by the pastor who undertook a walk to Washington DC across country; the main purpose of the walkers was to engage people from many places considered to be ultra-right-wing & they discovered that many there were not in lock-step at all with the people claiming the mantle of leadership. In one case, three women in a small Bible church were astonished to discover, once they opened up, that each of them had gay sons -- but they had generally thought themselves to be alone.
It brings to mind "The Sounds of Silence" --
' "Fools", said I, "you do not know
Silence like a cancer grows'
-- and Pinter took up the imperative which had been the rallying cry of AIDS activists, "Silence equals death."
What's caused the furor against Morford has been the dismissiveness of Pelosi and Frank, which is exactly the dismissiveness all of us who've approached our Democratic reps have received -- "Very nice, now keep quiet so we can follow our strategy." While Pinter repeats in the present Thoreau's "Resist much, obey little", Morford et al are asking that we slur over the definitions, blur the lines, not interrupt hearings.
People in very reactionary communities, like the one you've been living, experience real pressure from real psychos -- look at Jena, where nutboys drove by the protestors with nooses swinging from their truck -- but writers & representatives from the most liberal cities & constituencies have decided this week to chastise anyone who outruns them, or anyone who insists that the time to advance is when your opponent is collapsing; that is not the time to compromise.
Thanks, Anniesee. Wow, comparing us to Harold Pinter, that's a fine honor. :)
What to do? Build solidarity wherever and whenever you can find it - in your community, with friends in other parts of the country or the world, on the Internet. I assure you even in the reddest of states that you aren't alone! Even if your numbers are small, you can find people if you look hard enough - and oftentimes, thanks to the Internet, not even that hard. Just be sure to keep your eyes and ears peeled, 'cause smallness in numbers can make you a target.
restive
"If giving ground to obviously duplicitous practices is your vision of adapting socialism to the realities of the US, then all due respect, I question your commitment to any kind of real socialism - even if you are from Europe. ;-D "
I wasn't referring to any particular practice, I had an overall picture in mind.
You are right - I'm on your side all the way, but what to do?
I live in a Red State, Bible Belt at that. You must forgive my having needed to become somewhat wishy-washy during my few years here.
I've just searched my Favourites file for an old article from Common Dreams which I kept and read often. It's Harold Pinter's Nobel Lecture from December 2005. Very anti-US administration, it is, and not easy reading for a lot of Americans I guess.
He ends thus -
"I believe that despite the enormous odds which exist, unflinching, unswerving, fierce intellectual determination, as citizens, to define the real truth of our lives and our societies is a crucial obligation which devolves upon us all. It is in fact mandatory.
If such a determination is not embodied in our political vision we have no hope of restoring what is so nearly lost to us - the dignity of man"
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1208-28.htm
It's what you and the other Progressives are saying, and he, and you, are right.
"I would suggest that the acid test and final judgement of any political strategy is whether it produces positive results"
This is the same strategy that guided the Democratic senators when they refused to filibuster Roberts or Alito & the Republicans then told them they would simply abolish the filibuster.
Now the strategic minimalists, who told us that filibustering Roberts & Alito would be diastrous because there would be no way to filibuster even worse nominees tell us that we need to be minilaists once again, why? Because Bush was able to put Roberts and Alito on the Court.
We have seen the results of practical strategy for the last six years, and the reality is that practical strategy, strategic minimalism, small reforms are nothing but fodder to keep political consultants in cushy offices raking in rich fees from shit candidates.
If this is just the perennial Radicals vs. Moderates, Reform vs. Revolution debate, then (maybe this is too moderate of me) I would have to say that both types have their roles to play in pushing things forward.
I think Morford's main point is rather the obsessive silliness and knee-jerk negativism that is typical of both Right and Left political extremists (but particularly of the Left given the way things are in contemporary corporate America) and that is so clearly self-defeating because it is both ineffective in itself and unattractive to potential supporters.
The maximalist, uncompromising, "principled" moral stance is most effective when you have one really big issue, not a laundry list of peccadilloes.
I would suggest that the acid test and final judgement of any political strategy is whether it produces positive results. Did you win the small reform you sought? Did your revolution lead to freedom and prosperity? Maybe you were on the right side, but did your strategy work?
Smart strategy that produces actual progress is better than holy self-righteousness. On the other hand, endless compromise and moderation that gets steamrolled by the forces of evil is no good either. It's not so much a matter of balancing as of acting vigorously and passionately and intelligently, using a strategy that works.
"I admire the passion of some of CD's more zealously progressive members, they are needed, and plenty of them. But at the same time I can appreciate it's not realistic, short of a real revolution, to think that things can change here in under a couple of decades or so. The changes required are too fundamental."
Since when is calling for 1) food co-ops 2) corporate accountability - revolution? That's pretty much hippie do-goodism combined with liberalism - hardly earth-shattering stuff. Both have been around for decades, with mixed results - but what WF is practicing is actually a step back, not a step forward, even if there is good mixed in with the bad.
rant:
This is what gets me about this centrist crap - it's framed like consensus-building, when in fact it's capitulating to power, which when said capitulation involves the far right (or "natural foods" stores that are doing business with companies that invest in Monsanto and so on), it's not just foolish, it's dangerous. None of the things that are being asked of WF are revolutionary in focus, even on paper - given the balance of power at present, that would be calling for workplace control, with an anti-capitalist economic model, as much as that is possible at present.
If giving ground to obviously duplicitous practices is your vision of adapting socialism to the realities of the US, then all due respect, I question your commitment to any kind of real socialism - even if you are from Europe. ;-D
/rant
We all deserve better than baby steps - and if we have to settle for less *after* we have pushed as far as we can, then so be it, in my view - but that's clearly not what is being demanded by Mr. Monford and Mr. Frank. Real unity calls for diversity, as well as a willingness to allow viewpoints other than your own at the table - this is *NOT* about that, it's about accommodation to corporations, to the far right, to fascism. Enough, already.
Eh. Regrettably, this time around Morford seems to have gotten caught up in the Revenge of the Accomodationists backlash that's been percolating over the past couple of weeks. Please consult the Barney Frank articles on CD for a prime example.
Beneath the distinctive gonzo crackle of his prose is the tired straw man excoriating the Evils of Zealousness and Purity undermining decent people who deserve respect and space to support whom and what they please. The "liberals" are becoming what they beheld, etc. Yawn.
Even Morfordized, this is a bogus defensive posture mounted by unapologetic lesser-evilists and enablers. If, in fact, hordes of Sanctimonious "Liberal" Asshole Purists really do take issue with Morford, I would think that he can either tell them to fuck off because he can't be bothered engaging them, or he would employ his eloquence, hold his ground, and explain why the particular criticism isn't damning to him. One of the specious hidden premises of Morford's view is that he (the Reasonable Man) is acting in good faith, whereas the Replicant Liberals who oppress him aren't-- they just want to bash him over the head and gallop over the horizon shrieking, and not improving the status quo one single bit.
The "baby steps" theory of social and political change obviously captivates some, like a cool, tinkling spring of clear water appearing on the horizon captivates a wanderer in the desert. It seems so clear, so limpidly self-evident, so obvious-- and in any case, inevitable. Without disparaging anyone's sincerity or conviction: it's a mirage. With the hindsight of history, one can certainly discern trends that developed incrementally and meandered into dominance. "Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard famously said. Persistent abandonment of principle and conscience in the service of political power does not pay dividends of enlightenment and progress, only more and more expediency and mediocrity-- that's how we got here in the first place.
Incidentally, although I personally don't have a transsexual dog in the fight, reading comments here and elsewhere from Frank and those who support his position ain't a pretty sight. The supercilious outrage from moderate LGBs castigating transsexuals, and those of us who support them, as Johnny/Janies-Come-Lately selfishly and unreasonablly insisting on making the perfect the enemy of the good comes off rather like the unforgettable scenes of desperate Vietnamese clawing to board helicopters evacuating Saigon, and getting their fingers smashed by luckier passengers' rifle butts.
"Baby steps"-- the mantra of crabs in a barrel.
"Better is good" is better only if it's part of progress toward the goal of best. The Democrats joining the Republicans to pass a terrible FISA bill and then saying "We'll fix it when we get back from recess," just doesn't cut it. If you hear a "whine", turn up your hearing aid. It's a loud cry of anger and despair.
What the political spectrum is seeing is probably a first, a very angry large base of reasonable people who feel absolutely betrayed by those they elected, when the destruction of America and its values are at stake. Many many on the left no longer trust those who are supposed to represent them, so to "compliment" candidates or companies on some cosmetic accomplishment is about as worthy an endeavor as the praise of a panderer.
It is imperative to address the problems in America -- they are urgent, and anyone who doesn't see that or take it into account is going to seem as though they're part of and supportive of those who've caused the problems.
Progress IS almost always incremental, that's true. But progress is an adjective attached to the solution of a "problem", not criminal actions. Progress goes somewhere. It isn't ever static or cosmetic, nor does it stop until the goal is accomplished.
But -- righting the destruction of America created by this administration and the underlying premises needs more than "progress". It needs immediate action to stop it, and a leisurely stroll through the motions is no answer.
Then there are the "practical" liberals among us, who would have us put ALL of our energies into the good faith basket of the padrones. Screw that shit. Independent working class organization, first, now and always. And if we still have time to vote for an occasional enlightened democrat, we will. But the days of that strategy calling all the shots are rapidly dwindling down the drain, and I, for one, think it's a good thing.
Anniesee,
"But at the same time I can appreciate it's not realistic, short of a real revolution, to think that things can change here in under a couple of decades or so. The changes required are too fundamental."
The current regime & its collaborationist Democrats are doing one good thing: they are killing off the foundational national myths that are commonly evoked to prevent the citizens from recognizing the need for revolutionary change, or even actual revolution.
The keystone of that myth is the belief that we have a unique continuity in our Constitution & that, as we've been told at the last several inaugurations, "power is handed over peacefully". The occasion when power was NOT handed over peacefully in 1861 is whitewashed as a kind of continuity, when it was an abolition of the original colonial union, of which legal slavery was a wholly integral part. Without it, there would have been no USA at all. So really the present form of government at best dates back 142 years, not over 200.
The immense public indifference to Ken Burns' latest hagiographic exercise suggests that even the WWII paradigm is starting to lose force. The menace of fascism was very real, but even without it, the US government would have chosen to fight an imperial war somewhere in order to drain off the forces impelling the country towards revolution.
Substantive changes will only be made when the national self-deceptions no longer command the imagination or the rhetoric of a significant minority. And I believe that is not as far off as it seems.
Thank you everyone from restive to conrad, for reaffirming my faith in the US progressive movement. It is not a matter of being 'whiny' or 'extremist', it's a matter of sticking to your politics regardless of where the ever-shifting 'center' lies and a matter of disagreeing with the politics of the 'lesser evil'. Even a cursory reading of history will show that the Democrats and the Republicans are basically just two wings of a business party, all Liberals (with the capital L) should read a People's History of the United States.
As an aside since when supporting workers rights become 'extremist' it's even a fundamental right under the UN Human Rights Charter (a document that's hardly the Communist Manifesto)..
Given the corrupt, obscenely greedy, ruthless, cold-hearted country we're living in today, it's amazing companies such as Whole Foods and Starbucks and Central Market have managed to stay as clean as they have.
Paraphrasing progressive George Soros: no business can succeed in America legally. Period. One just has to try one's best.
Morford hit the nail on the head with this one.
Most Progressives on CD are intelligent, accepting, people - who want to work together to make the world better for everyone. They also know that sometimes you don't always get everything that you want, that compromise is sometimes necessary, and that just because someone doesn't completley agree with you doesn't mean that they are evil or the enemy.
I have unfortunatly run into far too many of the other kind of Progressive- Obstinate, Dogmatic, Unwilling to concede even in the smallest way that the other person might be right, believing that anyone that disagrees with them is either evil or on the payroll of some evil entity.
Even worse are the last and thankfully smallest group - the hard core haters that would compare to anything the right wing could come up. Always Angry, always spouting hatred of such and such group, pouring invective and hatred on anyone they don't consider "left" enough, they would be virtually indistinguishable from some posters of "stormfront". What self-important pains in the ass.
The progressive community can either support anyone that moves, however slowly, in the right direction- or they can risk alienating the great majority of the population.
JP,
"e progressives know that the revolution is not happening next week and that "better is good" but we also know that a weak dem is not better most of the time and the delusion that they are is worse than resistance and struggle for actual progress."
It took time for American colonists to recognize that Parliament was part of the problem, not the solution; in the same way, it's taken many of us time to admit that Congress & both parties share the imperial delusions. Apart from a handful of Representatives, the vast majority of Democrats really & truly see nothing impeachable in Bush's murderous reign.
I was glad to read Mark Morford's article and recognise the feelings he describes.
My ideals are probably far left of almost anyone here - European socialist, trying to blend in with USA liberals. I've realised that I must reign in my ideals to conform with what's feasible and available here.
I admire the passion of some of CD's more zealously progressive members, they are needed, and plenty of them. But at the same time I can appreciate it's not realistic, short of a real revolution, to think that things can change here in under a couple of decades or so. The changes required are too fundamental.
As someone said above, small steps to the left are all we can realistically hope for. Too much fragmentation will bring about big steps in the wrong direction.
So Mark Morford doesn't care about workers rights or unfair business practices of large corporations as much as he cares about issues he thinks are important. If he politely said that he had different priorities, I would just view him as wrong. But this sort of attack is wrong and dangerous. What he is saying is that those who think workers rights and restraints on corporate criminality are a problem. Well, yes, we are a problem for some interests. And some other issues MM doesn't think are important: "nukes/war/gays/health care/porn/medical marijuana". What's left? It looks like all that's left is the supporting certain corporations with good PR programs.
PS I don't think all issues are equally important (porn? that's a political issue?) but to me it's a red flag when you view workers' rights as not important in the context of sticking up for a union busting corporation that's using illegal means to smash independent business competition. Everything that MM likes about Whole Foods works quite well as a PR campaign for appealing to a well defined target market.
I think a lot of this comes down to the difference between liberals who really want mild reform and think this system can be fixed and that the answer lies in trusting the Democrats with whom they identify and progressives who have grown beyond that through education and experience in the struggle and who demand real change. We progressives know that the revolution is not happening next week and that "better is good" but we also know that a weak dem is not better most of the time and the delusion that they are is worse than resistance and struggle for actual progress. Compromise, while important, is not the primary tool of progress. Struggle and a constant and critical search for truth are.
This sounds like an ABB sort of article.
Yes--be glad that a company did something right--but if youa dopt the stance of the author then you are supposed to sit back and think: hoo boy! Isnt the world grand? We can take it easy now.
No--you cant.
The Body Shop tried to do good things and was bought by L'Oreal.
You could say that happened because of this ABB mentality.
Environmentalists have got to be as determined and serious about what they want as those that are seeking the opposite.
If you are a vegetarian(and you make a sorry excuse for an environmentalist if you cant even give up meat) then you shouldnt be telling everyone to uy small farm meat. You should be telling them to be vegetarian.
If you dont believe that the world can be vegetarian then why are you a vegetarian in the first place?
You have to stand up for your principles. If you compromise on them then youa re doomed to failure(i.e. Body shop).
That's the most basic reality.
I don't understand. No one is listening to the moderate liberals, let alone the extreme ones! This includes St. Barack, who won't say we will be out of Iraq by 2013, and offers a less-than-inspirational national healthcare package. After all, he reasons, insurance company executives have to eat, too!
I can't see what the danger is of "liberal extremists" are when interests representing the very unliberal rule both political parties. All citizens need to protest
BOTH the Republicans and Democrats if they want real change. If you are not very rich, you are not living as well as you were ten years ago, whether you are a liberal or a conservative!