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The Latest Revelations of Lawbreaking, Torture and Extremism
Much outrage has been provoked by the generally excellent New York Times article this morning revealing the Bush administration's recent violations of legal restrictions on the use of torture and other "severe interrogation techniques." And, in one sense, the outrage is both understandable and appropriate. Today's revelations involve the now-familiar, defining attributes of this administration -- claims of limitless presidential power, operating in total secrecy and with no oversight, breaking of laws at will, serial misleading of the Congress and the country and, most of all, the shattering of every previous moral and legal constraint on our national behavior.
But in another, more important, sense, this story reveals nothing new. As a country, we've known undeniably for almost two years now that we have a lawless government and a President who routinely orders our laws to be violated. His top officials have been repeatedly caught lying outright to Congress on the most critical questions we face. They have argued out in the open that the "constitutional duty" to defend the country means that nothing -- including our "laws" -- can limit what the President does.
It has long been known that we are torturing, holding detainees in secret prisons beyond the reach of law and civilization, sending detainees to the worst human rights abusers to be tortured, and subjecting them ourselves to all sorts of treatment which both our own laws and the treaties to which we are a party plainly prohibit. None of this is new.
And we have decided, collectively as a country, to do nothing about that. Quite the contrary, with regard to most of the revelations of lawbreaking and abuse, our political elite almost in unison has declared that such behavior is understandable, if not justifiable. And our elected representatives have chosen to remain largely in the dark about what was done and, when forced by court rulings or media revelations to act at all, they have endorsed and legalized this behavior -- not investigated, outlawed or punished it.
A ruling by the Supreme Court in Hamdan that the President's interrogation and detention policies violated the law led Congress to enact the Military Commissions Act to legalize those policies. Revelations that the President and telecom companies were breaking our surveillance laws led to the legalization of much of that program and will soon lead to amnesty for the lawbreakers. With regard to all of the most severe acts of illegality, no criminal prosecutions have been commenced and no truly meaningful Congressional investigations have been pursued.
And the more that is revealed about the deep corruption of this administration, the more protective our political elite becomes of the administration, the more insistent their demands become that nothing be done (see Fred Hiatt's attack today on Pat Leahy for his "irresponsible" refusal to confirm Bush's Attorney General until the administration discloses information regarding their past lawbreaking and firings of prosecutors). And the more our political elite defends the administration and demands that nothing be done, the more our "opposition party" heeds those demands:
Backing away from a fight with the White House, Senate Democrats are suggesting that they will not hold up confirmation of President Bush's nominee for attorney general, Michael B. Mukasey, despite differences over Senate access to documents involving Justice Department actions.
In a letter to Mr. Mukasey made public Wednesday, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont, said he would go forward with the confirmation hearings without the promise of the documents.
The committee had for months been pressing the White House for access to files and e-mail messages about last year's firing of several federal prosecutors for what Democrats maintain were political reasons, and about legal justifications for the domestic eavesdropping program run by the National Security Agency.
All of these subversive and grotesque policies -- the Yoo/Addington theories of the imperial presidency, torture, rendition, illegal surveillance, black sites -- began as secret, illegal Bush administration policies. But the more they are revealed, and the more we do nothing about them, the more they become our own.
It is vital to emphasize here that these revelations are not obsolete matters of the distant past -- something we can all agree to leave behind in the spirit of harmoniously moving forward. The torture, detention and surveillance policies in question are still the formal and official position of our government -- and thus can be applied with far greater vigor not merely in the event of a new terrorist attack, but at any time.
The current policies of the U.S. Government still include, in undiluted form, the Bush administration's theories of unlimited presidential power; the lawless powers of indefinite, due-process-free imprisonment even of U.S. citizens (as applied to Jose Padilla); the use of black sites; the asserted right to spy on Americans with no warrants or legal constraints. None of that has gone away. We just decided to accept it. As the NYT article said about the administration's torture memos:
But the 2005 Justice Department opinions remain in effect, and their legal conclusions have been confirmed by several more recent memorandums, officials said. They show how the White House has succeeded in preserving the broadest possible legal latitude for harsh tactics.
All of the solemn "debates" and hand-wringing and anti-torture laws that were passed have changed very little, because the administration knows that there is no political will ever to enforce any of that. They know that the political and media institutions intended to impose checks on their behavior will never take any meaningful stand against what they do, no matter how blatantly extreme or illegal.
In response to a post I wrote last month ago regarding the press's reverence for Karl Rove, NYU Journalism Professor (and excellent media critic) Jay Rosen argued that much of the Beltway's acquiescence to the administration's lawbreaking and radicalism is due to their sheer inability to comprehend and internalize just how extreme it all has been:
But I would recommend to Glenn some other factors that deserve consideration if we're trying to explain the collapse of the press under Bush, Cheney and Rove.
The most important of these is that journalists and their methods were overwhelmed by what the Bush White House did -- by its radicalism. There is simply nothing in the Beltway journalist's rule book about what to do, how to act, when a group of people comes to power willing to go as far as this group has in expanding executive power, eluding oversight, steamrolling critics (even when they are allies) politicizing the government, re-working the Constitution, rolling back the press, making secrecy and opacity standard operating procedure, and repealing the very principle of empiricism in matters of state.
The press tends to behave because it does not know how to act, in the sense of striking out in a new direction when confronted with a new fact pattern.
Previously, that's what I believed, and I think that is what accounted for the meekness among our political and media class when these abuses first began to emerge: an inability to comprehend, really to believe, that our government had become this extreme, so blatantly indifferent to even the most minimal legal and moral constraints. One does not expect an administration to imprison U.S. citizens with no process, or to proclaim explicitly the right to break the law, or to systematically adopt policies of torture. For that reason, it is not surprising that it would take some time for the reaction to catch up to the full extent of the wrongdoing.
But we are now way past the point where that excuse is plausible. Anyone paying even minimal attention is well aware of exactly how radical and corrupt and lawless this administration is. We all know what has happened to our standing in the world, to our national character and our core political values, as a result of the previously unthinkable policies the Bush administration has relentlessly pursued. Ignorance or incredulity can no longer explain our acquiescence. Accommodating and protecting the lawbreaking of high Bush officials is widely seen by our Beltway elite as a duty of bipartisanship, a hallmark of Seriousness.
It isn't surprising or particularly revealing that there were not immediate consequences for these revelations. Our political system, by design, works slowly and methodically. The Founders purposely imposed significant hurdles to undertaking the most significant steps (such as criminal investigations of high Executive officials or impeachment) precisely to ensure that such actions were taken deliberatively, not impetuously. It took two-and-a-half years for the much simpler Watergate scandal to lead to what would have been the impeachment of Richard Nixon. The failure to impose immediate or even rapid consequences, while frustrating to many, would not really be a cause for legitimate complaint.
But when it comes to Bush's extremism and lawbreaking, we're not imposing consequences slowly. We're not imposing consequences at all. Quite the contrary, we're moving in the opposite direction -- when we're not affirmatively endorsing and providing protection for that conduct, we're choosing not to know about it, or simply allowing it to fester. And the more that happens, the less that behavior becomes the exclusive province of the Bush administration and the more it becomes our country's defining behavior.
This could still all be reversed. The NYT article today reveals new facts about the administration's lawbreaking, lying, and pursuit of torture policies which we had decided, with futility, to outlaw. The Congress could aggressively investigate. Criminal prosecutions could be commenced. Our opinion-making elite could sound the alarm. New laws could be passed, reversing the prior endorsements and imposing new restrictions, along with the will to enforce those laws. We still have the ability to vindicate the rule of law and enforce our basic constitutional framework.
But does anyone actually believe any of that will be the result of these new revelations? We always possess the choice -- still -- to take a stand for the rule of law and our basic national values, but with every new day that we choose not to, those Bush policies become increasingly normalized, increasingly the symbol not only of "Bushism" but of America.
Glenn Greenwald was previously a constitutional law and civil rights litigator in New York. He is the author of the New York Times Bestselling book "How Would a Patriot Act?," a critique of the Bush administration's use of executive power, released in May 2006. His second book, "A Tragic Legacy", examines the Bush legacy.
© Salon.com



47 Comments so far
Show AllIt seems to me the calculated strategy of Bush/Cheney has been and is to simply overwhelm us with outrage upon outrage.
Three or four years ago, I noticed B/C would throw something totally bad against the wall. Then, before reactions could be formulated and presented, there would be two or three or more outrages, some related and some completely not.
Maybe we could assign different people to react to each of these serial crimes.
COMarc (13) wrote:
"The goal [of torture] is always to prevent resistance to economic policies that otherwise would generate a great deal of resistance."
COMMENT:
Economic policies that favor themselves are always the motivation of those who manage to gain power. What is confounding is that the underlying economic policies of all nations, especially noticeable in the US, haven't long been resisted by the masses the policies exploit. Citizens continue decade after decade to elect people to public office that exploit them. Continue to fail to follow Jefferson's advice to change the system if it isn't serving the people.
Economic policies of most, if not all nations, are meant to favor those who make such policies. Propaganda, custom, and the laws made by this class of policy-makers enable them to get away with this fraud, and if these means don't prove adequate, force is employed. Using force and intimidation to keep in place policies that enable the few to live off the labors of the many is at least as old as ancient Ur where servants/slaves were killed and buried with the nobles to serve them, presumably, in some "next life."
In the UK, the masses still allow their royal parasites to continue to suckle on the wealth of the workers. In the US the equivalent of the royales are the rich and famous such as:
1. those of the owning class that "give" the masses jobs using the means of production that the owning class obtained from the common wealth through various means including theft, fraud, inheritance, wars for profit, and of course the laws their wealth allows them to have written to get and keep the means of production.
As the means of production tends to remain in the hands of the same class, generation after generation, they are the equivalent of the peerages of earlier times. Today's masses, the workers and wage-slaves, are the equivalent of the servants and slaves of old.
As with the Hammurabi Code, there are separate laws for the owning/ruling class and the masses, some of these are written such as the corporation-as-person fraud, tax loopholes, and laws that give the owning class monetary fines representing only a small percentage of the money they have made by defrauding others.
Example from the Hammurabi Code:
"If any one steal cattle or sheep, or an ass, or a pig or a goat, if it belong to a god or to the court, the thief shall pay thirty-fold; if they belonged to a freed man of the king he shall pay tenfold; if the thief has nothing with which to pay he shall be put to death."
Then there are the unwritten laws in the US that let the rich and/or famous get away with various crimes including deaths caused by deliberate failure to provide safety for workers which is murder, or the mass-murder from wars they direct their government to engage in for their benefit.
2. The other equivalent of the old Euro royales are those of the rich and famous entertainment class the masses can venerate as so many in the UK venerate their royales, as indeed even the mass gushing over Princess Diana revealed. Ravel's Pavane for a Dead Princess was played hundreds of times during the weeks after that woman's death, the talking heads on TV babbled on for weeks, the magazines were filled with her life and death. And she wasn't even a Princess of the US!
The entertainment "royales" get what is often monetary-enhancing publicity for crimes such as illegal substance possession, and little or no jail time, whereas the jails are crammed with the poor and unknown mostly black and brown people. The common folks in juries even let the rich and famous get away with hands-on murder with knife or gun.
Yes, we willingly allow our modern peerage, the owning and entertainment classes, to exploit us, and if some of us protest the exploitation, the peerage still has their dungeons and torturers to intimidate us.
The United States is not "the home of the brave": it is the home of the complacent and cowardly. Until the masses give a damn, it will remain so.
Kristina,
I'd like to see Europe's ultimate response when America finishes going to fascism. Oh wait, I forgot they're taking economic BRIBES from the US !
Listen carefully to the parsing of the language.
'"This government does not torture people," the president said.'-AP story, 10-4-07
In every torture-related story, the press line has been, in effect, "the US does not torture." Not DID not torture. Not NEVER HAVE tortured. DOES NOT torture people, as in right now this week.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions from the wording.
Welllllll, thanks to the pelosiviks, the leaders have carte blanche to 'protect' us.
I still cannot how the Dem leaders sleep at night by allowing Cheney and Bush to remain in office and keep ordering our government agencies, including the mercenaries, to commit state-sponsored terrorism in the rest of the world.
And have 1/2 the US population saying "helluva job, Georgie".
and 'democracies' do not start wars either...
> Listen carefully to the parsing of the language.
> '"This government does not torture people,"
Of course not. It's probably been outsourced to Blackwater or a company we've never heard of and never will. Or another government.
Besides, waterboarding is a 'professional interrogation technique', not torture. I've come to the conclusion it is not possible to convince some people otherwise. One torture advocate told me that he could withstand waterboarding so therefore it couldn't be torture.
unkanny: You might not crack with the first dip (water-boarding) but I'll guarantee you that your body will rebel when faced with the second dose - that's what torture is all about anyway - using the body to defeat the mind. Of course, crazy people will say anything to stop the next assault - but the mind becomes so confused that it cannot separate reality from the nightmare. That's why victims will parrot anything they've heard - doesn't mean the information is accurate, just that it's somewhere in a person's memory.
The problem isn't just with the torture - it's all the lies people tell to cover up what they're doing - eventually, they can't tell truth from fiction either. Torture destroys both the victim and the perpetrator - in the end, nothing worthwhile is gained. Evil begets evil. The only 'cure' is to stop the evil - and we can only stop the evil coming from our own side. A society built on lies become paranoid, delusional, and self-destructive. Sound familiar?
I have never believed any of that rubbish about the US being the primary force for good in the world. I was raised by a politically astute parent who, as far back as the 1950s, had no illusions about the American imperial impulse behind the Cold War. However, I must confess to a certain amount of difficulty in wrapping may brain around the issue of torture. I guess I`ve always believed that Americans would draw the line there. I guess one never stops growing up.
the next logical step for bush and co is to declare martial law and make himself president for life, not unlike comrade putin, but for different reasons.
let the beltway get their minds around that if they can, the enormity of that, because it is close to being realized.
martial law because it has a) always been in the plans and b) if bush were not in charge (and i use that term guardedly) the chances of being tried as a war criminal increase exponentially.
why did fema, so impotent in new orleans, spend all the time, energy and money to build 800 prisons in the continental us?
i wonder who they plan to stick in there?
maybe the few patriots left in the continental us.
as glen points out above, no one is going to say very much.
GG knows most of our media is controlled by the five families, one of which continues to reign as our #1 defense contractor, another of whom unabashedly enables and supports all things Cheneybush. In an actual Democracy, real reporters and real journalists and real technicians would cease enabling the enablers - you know, like, quit. No workers, no FOXaganda. No UAW, no cars. Get it? If $20 dollar-an-hour guys are willing to sacrifice for principals, the much better paid media sellouts should be bailing in droves, which would force change.
But it might require you hold out on that Halo 3 purchase you shouldn't even be considering if you're over the age of 15...
In a country where the lynching of blacks was seen as entertainment only a few decades ago, the public's apathy related to the issue of torture should come as no surprise. Toss in all the mega-violent video games young people have been devouring for a decade or so now, and you have the foundations for the USA's continuance as an amoral society, which is exhibited to the world through American Exceptionalism.
I would posit that less than 1% of the adult population of the USA behaves morally; probably less if "little white lies" are also considered immoral. I'm being immoral right now by using my computer to contribute to global warming even though my utility is the only one in the country that doesn't emit CO2 as a primary byproduct of electricity generation; this is because electricity is fungible--what I'm using now could displace some fossil-fueled electricity somewhere else. So being moral is hard work; I would say next to impossible.
Pan et circus! That's part of the problem-too many people want to be passively entertained. They don't want to participate in the world or think about anything.
I think the so-called "reality shows" are a great example of the problem. These shows are as fake and contrived as you can get.Yet people still seem to think they are reality.
When people start confusing TV with (or maybe choosing it over)reality, that's a problem.
We need more people who care about the real pain of real people! More people who want to be responsible citizens of our country and of the world.
Everything is connected- the war hurts the economy which hurts all of us. Yet the media portrays everything as if it were disconnected! The newscasters put on their "sad face" for the bad news and then in the twinkling of an eye they have on their "happy face" when they talk about something happy! Not enough people want to take the time to say "Hey wait a minute. This___ is really BAD! Why did it happen? How can we keep it from happening again?" By then we have heard the 30 second's worth of "news" on that topic and we are in a commercial break and someone is trying to sell us sleep medicine.
Wonder why we can't sleep?
The point I'd disagree with is that 'we have decided as a country not do to anything about this.'
That's not entirely true because today's political system does not represent the will or the values of Americans. The problem is that the political class in both parties no longer listens to Americans nor reflects their views. This is especially obvious in the Democratic Party. One expects the Republicans to be evil assholes. The feature of today's politics is that the Democrats protect and the defend the Republicans despite the opposition of the members of their party and voters as a whole.
I just pray the lesson has sunk in that if you want this to end, you have to vote for someone other than either the Democrat or Republican.
PS .. the people get very involved when they see they can make a difference. The feature of today's politics in America is that the people can not make a difference. Why go to a protest when you know most Americans won't even know about it due to corporate news blackouts and when you know no politicians give a damn that a protest even occurs? Take a look at the fall of the Soviet Union as an example. For years people did very little to change the system. That's because they could not change it. The only thing trying to change it did was to get the heat of the security services on your head. But then, suddenly and very quickly it became apparent that action by the people could change the system. That was when you saw hundreds of thousands of people out protesting and the whole system collapsed quickly. The same is true in America. If the actions you can take can not change things, then it makes sense to focus on your own life ... even if that does cause activists to whine about you. But the day it becomes clear to Americans that they can do something to cause change, you'll see Americans act in the millions.
Lynching of blacks was seen as entertainment in the 60's or 70's???? What do they teach in school these days?
I love the constant fantasy out here that Bush is going to declare himself president for life. That's a good one. The funny part is that he's obviously sick of the job and counting the days till he can leave office. The man has never held a job for 8 years straight in his life, he wants to quit and go hang out at the ranch and drink beer. The last thing he'd do is to do declare martial law and stay president.
"You might not crack with the first dip (water-boarding) but I'll guarantee you that your body will rebel when faced with the second dose - that's what torture is all about anyway - using the body to defeat the mind."
Been reading Naomi Klien's latest book. She does a wonderful job of talking about what torture is all about. I strongly recommend everyone read this book!!!!
In general, it does two things. One is for the person being tortured, it basically tries to wipe the personality clean. Its based on the MKULTRA type research at McGill. Torturers try to reach that state so they can then 'reprogram' the victim into someone that helps them. The CIA manuals talk clearly about reaching this state and recognizing when its reached. That's when the torturer can get the victim to renounce all they've believed in.
The other thing it does is to serve as a lesson to others. Ie, they may not really care what information they get from the victim. Instead its a very public lesson to anyone else to shut up, don't organize, keep your head down etc. In that role its just very brutal and sadistic without any real hope of gaining any information. The message is to obey the police state or else this happens to you.
This is why police arrests are always very public affairs designed to shock the neighborhood. Its why they happen at night with lots of sirens and flashing lights. The police aren't shy about people knowing what happens. In fact they want the whole neighborhood awake and in shock at the fact that one of their neighbors is being dragged away for prison and torture.
And she makes the clear point this doesn't happen in isolation. The goal is always to prevent resistance to economic policies that otherwise would generate a great deal of resistance.
Thanks Glenn. Excellent, as always.
One point that I think has been overlooked, however, is the vastness of the attacks on our Constitution, freedoms, rule of law, and EVERY aspect of our government. I know that I personally get overwhelmed to the point of immobility at times. Everyday, and I mean EVERY DAY, there are new revelations or evidence presented in the media, of some new atrocity by our government. I can't even keep up! And this is just the stuff that is reported. This deluge of information doesn't even count all the stuff that is being covered up by the MSM.
If I read about one more investigation, one more "strongly worded" letter, one more subpoena, or one more hearing, or one more anything else that I know will never be followed up on, I may scream! This is a Constitutional crisis!! Is Congress asleep at the switch or are they complicite? I feel so impotant. Every time I get really focused on the latest outrage, I'm inundated with yet another outrage!
I guess what I'm trying to say is that because of the vastness of this assault on America by our own government, most reasonable people, after a period of time, reach their limit. The pain is so great and the ability to effect change so small, the rational reaction for self preservation is withdrawal. It's not depression anymore. I guess it just becomes resignation of some sort. The next bombshell is deflected with "Of course. That's just what I expected from this bunch of criminals". The outrage withers. Even the tears won't come anymore. It's like something died inside.
I don't know how great reporters like Glenn keep going. They try to keep the spirit and the rage alive. The others have just given up.
I'll never be one of the sheeple, and I will continue to fight for as long as I can. Folks like Glenn and the contributors here at CD keep me going for now. But I HAVE become resigned to the fact that the shit is going to hit the fan in the not so distant future. Attack on Iran? Economic collapse? Something horrific is going to happen force people to wake up because it will be their ONLY means of survival. In the meantime, I'm stocking up on enough food and supplies to last me and my dogs at least 3 months. And I am forming very close bonds with my neighbors. Together, maybe we will survive this catastrophy. The important thing is that we all hold on to our humanity and our vision of peace for all.
Thanks for listening.
PS COMark: You were posting while I was writing. You made a lot of the same observations from a somewhat different prospective.
I again hearken back to post-election 2006, and the buzz-kill of Pelosi and Reid's immediate and unequivocal assurances to the Ruling Class that impeachment and de-funding the Iraq "war" were off the table. It makes the bile rise even now, writing it.
But the blogs abundantly expressed reassurances from loyal Democrats-- the same ones who now urge, often snarkily, that voters stay the course and get behind the most promising Democratic candidate to enable a Democratic Dawn of Correction in 2008. The story went: look, the Dems obviously have only a razor-thin and tenuous majority, given the perfidous Lieberman and Tim Johnson down for the count. So impeachment doesn't really make sense.
Well, we'll move on without a few hundred withering words about the pernicious effects of reducing high principle and constitutional duty to a political calculation. Plan B involved a bit of rope-a-dope. What the Dems could do to strike the blow against the empire for which they were elected was use their committee chairmanships to launch aggressive investigations into the staggering totality of political and financial depredations wrought by the criminal warmongers in power.
Waxman; Conyers; Leahy-- all experienced, tough, savvy, and aggressive senior politicians. And there's no doubt that Waxman, at least, goes great guns. But the wheels of the bus go 'round and 'round, and there's no sense of the promised passionate attack on the corrupt misfeasors who've raped the Constitution and mortgaged the treasury to corporations, the wealthy, and a perpetual Death Star of a military juggernaut.
Last I heard, Leahy was offering to back off on investigations into the hydra of improprieties in the Gonzalez DOJ if the president would refrain from putting forth an obvious phony or ringer for DOJ. And now he's caved on compelling the WH to release requested documents.
Even the prosecutions of troops involved in atrocities and other heinous, felonious behavior seems to be slip-sliding away. Even the bad apples are getting off, and there's no indication that anyone's pushing to revisit the chain of command in the pursuit of justice.
So I suppose you might say that I'm not at all sanguine about the status quo and prospects for reviving social justice in our prolapsing empire.
"the more that is revealed about the deep corruption of this administration, the more protective our political elite becomes of the administration, the more insistent their demands become that nothing be done . . . And the more our political elite defends the administration and demands that nothing be done, the more our "opposition party" heeds those demands"
To this add a passage from Chris Floyd's blog "Empire Burlesque"
As we have noted before – echoing the powerful arguments of Arthur Silber – the Democrats are doing this because they want to."
http://www.chris-floyd.com/Articles/Articles/Lost_in_the_Roar%3A_War_Alarms_Drowned_by_Beltway_Bloodlust/
That's what I'm on about! :(
If all this is happening, then why is Europe just standing there while the Geneva Conventions is going down in FLAMES ? Is it because of those "free" trade BRIBE deals between them and the US that's keeping them in GIRLIE mode ?
When I first started reading this article I thought 'We are having one of those no shit moments".
But this statement runs deep and I personally believe it to be the truth..
"All of these subversive and grotesque policies — the Yoo/Addington theories of the imperial presidency, torture, rendition, illegal surveillance, black sites — began as secret, illegal Bush administration policies. But the more they are revealed, and the more we do nothing about them, the more they become our own."
-- All Americans stand together and we'll beat them.
COMarc - "he wants to quit and go hang out at the ranch and drink beer. The last thing he'd do is to do declare martial law and stay president.
-- The only trouble is, he doesn't make his own decisions. He's not capable of it. Daddy Bush and Cheney and the rest make his decisions for him. The more pissed he gets at them the more they fill him full of tranqilizers. I've had that fear for a long time...that there won't be another election. There will be another disaster like 9/11, they'll call their asinine red alert, and then we'll be finished.
When I first started reading this article I thought 'We are having one of those no shit moments".
But this statement runs deep and I personally believe it to be the truth..
"All of these subversive and grotesque policies — the Yoo/Addington theories of the imperial presidency, torture, rendition, illegal surveillance, black sites — began as secret, illegal Bush administration policies. But the more they are revealed, and the more we do nothing about them, the more they become our own."
-- All Americans stand together and we'll beat them.
COMarc - "he wants to quit and go hang out at the ranch and drink beer. The last thing he'd do is to do declare martial law and stay president.
-- The only trouble is, he doesn't make his own decisions. He's not capable of it. Daddy Bush and Cheney and the rest make his decisions for him. The more pissed he gets at them the more they fill him full of tranquilizers. I've had that fear for a long time...that there won't be another election. There will be another disaster like 9/11, they'll call their asinine red alert, and then we'll be finished.
Morality is a very subjective thing.
The problem with this morality argument that zoya and Karlof make, to me at least, is that it is just as unsophisticated as the propaganda coming out of the neocon war machine: things are only "right or wrong," "black or white," "moral or amoral."
Indulge me a minute here, will you? I submit that every moral statement is relative and depends on the perspective of the one making the moral value judgment.
For example: Some redneck neocons, are convinced, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it IS moral for Bush to torture a few terrorists, than let a whole city be subjected to a WMD attack. I myself felt that way right after 911 before facts on the internet changed my mind about what really happened.
For example: extremists feel it is NOT moral to eat animals. Others feel it is NOT moral to have interracial marriage, to use recreational drugs to worship pagan gods, etc.....
So I reject this blanket morality argument, that there is only one way to percieve viewpoint, and suggest you quit trying to vilify all Americans simply because we've fallen under the iron boot of despotism. We are victims as much as you are. Whatever we did wrong to get us here is irrelevant. What we need now is you to not condemn the society as a whole (even if you are right.) We need you to reach out and offer support, sympathy and a way to derail this "long train of abuses" that we are all experiencing.
I think, that everybody deep down knows that torture is an evil thing. Your assertion that they are desensitized to it, because the whole society plays violent video games or watches it in video I will concede. But what can we do?
Laying blame at common self-absorbed American citizens may assuage your emotions, but it does nothing towards bringing them on board or forging a worldwide alliance which can avert more death and destruction.
pac
Congress needs investigation and impeachment and cut off of the money for the illegal occupation of Iraq. Until that happens it is just political masturbation.
Morality, we are told in the immediately preceding post by pacplyer, is a subjective and relative matter.
If that were the case, we might as well close down Common Dreams right now and go home and be happy or miserable little moral relativists, as our circumstances may be. If what is good and right is merely relative to a given subjectivity, then there is no recourse against might, save countermight. In that case, Honorable Bush, who obviously thinks that might not only makes right, but also is right, carries the day.
What about the golden rule, i.e., the rule that commands, do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you? Most, if not all religious traditions adhere to some version of this rule. I suppose you don't pacplyer.
Think about this grave matter again...
I think impeachment is a dead issue because of the lack of will on the part of the Congressional Leadership. But that leads me to ask how we go about approaching the International courts about bringing War Crimes charges against our government, Blackwater, and the Pentagon.
I know we refused to join the World Court because Bush was afraid he'd face charges, but I don't think the Nazis and Japanese Governments were willing participants in their trials, so why expect this criminal crew to acquiesce. What does it take? Can Al Jazeera, who's cameraman is near death from a hunger strike in Gitmo bring charges?
What about some of the Iraqis or Afghanis?
Surely someone has the standing and the guts to haul this Administration into the International Legal Forum. The Hawaiians filed charges of an illegal occupation against the US in the World Court and WON the case [but couldn't enforce the finding]. There must be some way for the injured parties [and they are multitude] to do the same against the US and Bush.
It's gone far beyond the pusillanimous voters [far less then 50%] of the US citizenry. The people of much of the world are equally adept at ignoring the criminality. Has Britain stepped up? the new French Government? Maybe Canada will live up to its reputation instead of hiding behind NAFTA.
Except for the Muslim Nations and the members of the Bolivarian Revolution in Latin America, the Western World and industrial powerhouses are sitting this one out. Maybe the attraction of a religious Crusade still works in the 21st Century, if it's backed up with money and guns.
Unfortunately, under the increasing dominion of huge multinational corporations backed by their praetorian guards (the U.S. military), the only an elite form of democracy is allowed.
A popular democracy would reintroduce environmental, consumer, and workplace health & safety protections, nationalization (healthcare for example), more extensive spending on health, welfare and education, gut NAFTA and other free trade agreements, increased infrastructural repairs and maitenance, and expanded social security coverage.
Of course, to get the dough needed, the general population would have focus on the enormous military, intelligence and other forms national security expenditures.
In fact, many neocons and their allies have recently been promoting the view that the capitalist economy is rational while democratic governments that actually reflect the popular will are irrational. Thus, the capitalist economy must protected from the irrationality of non-elitist, democratic governments.
What irrationality? The irrationality of economically powerless people fighting to protect themselves from the economically powerful.
When governments subsidize, bailout, cut the taxes of the wealthy and their corporations, contract out no bid projects to private firms, these giveaways only make the corporations more economically and politically powerful.
As a result, the open space within civil society for democratic actions continuously contracts.
Eveningland, "Morality, we are told in the immediately preceding post by pacplyer, is a subjective and relative matter."
And that is absolutely true. But Right and Wrong are not dependent on 'morality. Just because the mores allowed both slavery and lynching in America, that never made it right. It just gave the contemporary citizens a cop-out at the time.
Torture is wrong. If you brutalize a person to the point it becomes acceptable to him/her, it will still be wrong. Bush can re-write his definition of 'torture' to the point of saying as long as they don't kill someone on purpose it's ok - and he has. But that doesn't mean he's right or that he won't pay sooner or later.
NYU Journalism Professor (and excellent media critic) Jay Rosen argued that much of the Beltway's acquiescence to the administration's lawbreaking and radicalism is due to their sheer inability to comprehend and internalize just how extreme it all has been...
This strikes a chord with me, whether it's the answer or not. Nancy Pelosi's decision to "take impeachment off the table" was not a decision made by someone who realized just what this administration has done. The highflown Democratic talk about "reaching out" to the president and the Republicans reminded me of someone who thinks a tea party is a good way to decide the fate of a murderer, rather than arrest, prosecution in court, a trial, and sentencing.
You don't "cooperate" with liars, warmongers, torturers, dictators, and despots. You don't treat them as though they're the slightly daft little lady down the block who just needs a cordial welcome to your home to become a full-fledged cooperating member of the community. The Bush administration must be laughing its head off at the Democrats.
What's with them? Are they so close to the trees they can't see the deadly forest? Do they need the distance from Washington that we citizens have, where the full degradation and destruction of our country is vividly visible?
You'd think that even if they were unable to comprehend what the Bush administration has done and how urgent it is to undo it, they'd pay some attention to the voters, who by now are screaming with rage, fear, and frustration. Are they so self-centered and insulated that they can ignore us and really think we don't have anything important to tell them and are just being incomprehensibly oppositional? What DO they think about the citizen protests and anger?
They'd damned well better wake up.
Democracy Now! had the white house rep speaking to reporters today, she claimed that each signatory to the Geneva Conventions interprets it in their own way.
This is a speaker for your government?? What next? We are sorry 'cause we are stupid?
What a disgrace, absolutely disgraceful, those people are criminals.
EveningLand said:
"What about the golden rule, i.e., the rule that commands, do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you? Most, if not all religious traditions adhere to some version of this rule. I suppose you don't pacplyer."
Apparently not: the Christian religious right is currently in charge of the U.S., advocating the most bloody holy war for oil we've ever known. The Jewish and Islamic religious are in full kill mode. Frankly, the only religion I'm impressed with (that cherishes a golden rule) is the one the Burma Monks have: at least they adhere to their own scriptures. Unfortunately, it doesn't have much short-term sway against the empires of Might (Cheveron.)
I am not endorsing the fact that your species cannot agree on a common frame of reference for morality.
I am just trying to paint the morality argument as it really is: superficial, and without possible concurrance by others.
I am only trying to get you to see that negative attacks on mainstream Americans assailing their people or society as not "moral" will not be recieved the way you want it to be. Pointing a big finger at the pawns for having their constitution shreaded by military strong men, is doomed to fail. Quit blaming the victim.
I feel the more sucessful tact is to approach it from a standpoint of survivablity. The fact that fallout is a very real possibility in the upper atmosphere should nukes be used offensively. Even the self-absorbed Wal Mart Shopper will have pause if they realize this evil is in their future if they don't do something. We all have common dreams to survive.
Common Dreams means finding common ground, not labeling someone's country immoral.
This golden rule "feelgood" happytalk is utopian nonsense, and will never reach a hard-core neocon.
I could be wrong about all this, but that's my opinon at this point.
Best wishes,
pacplyer
EveningLand said:
"What about the golden rule, i.e., the rule that commands, do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you? Most, if not all religious traditions adhere to some version of this rule. I suppose you don't pacplyer."
Apparently not: the Christian religious right is currently in charge of the U.S., advocating the most bloody holy war for oil we've ever known. The Jewish and Islamic religious are in full kill mode. Frankly, the only religion I'm impressed with (that cherishes a golden rule) is the one the Burma Monks have: at least they adhere to their own scriptures. Unfortunately, it doesn't have much short-term sway against the empires of Might (Chevron.)
I am not endorsing the fact that your species cannot agree on a common frame of reference for morality.
I am just trying to paint the morality argument as it really is: superficial, and without possible concurrence by others.
I am only trying to get you to see that negative attacks on mainstream Americans assailing their people or society as not "moral" will not be received the way you want it to be. Pointing a big finger at the pawns for having their constitution shredded by military strong men, is doomed to fail. Quit blaming the victim.
I feel the more successful tact is to approach it from a standpoint of survivability. The fact that fallout is a very real possibility in the upper atmosphere should nukes be used offensively. Even the self-absorbed Wal Mart Shopper will have pause if they realize this evil is in their future if they don't do something. We all have common dreams to survive.
Common Dreams means finding common ground, not labeling someone's country immoral.
This golden rule "feelgood" happy talk is utopian nonsense, and will never reach a hard-core neocon.
I could be wrong about all this, but that's my opinion at this point.
Best wishes,
pacplyer
It can happen today or tomorrow; it is just a matter of time before the first dissenters suddenly start to disappear.
pacplyer, you hit it right on the head. All the talk I've been reading around here, full of hate and accusations, eternally pointing the finger at one and then the other, usually at Americans in general, will only increase the violence and serve to keep us apart.
Now, of all times, we need to stand together, cast aside our differences and fight this insanity. There is no reason why Christian and Jew and Muslim Americans can't stop their infernal bickering and stand together. There is no reason why Democrats, and Republicans, Greens and Libertarians can't stop their infernal bickering and stand together. The North and the South, East and the West, city dwellers and mountain folks, farmers and environmentalists...
If we don't we just may find ourselves in that red alert and then it will be too late.
It will be too late.
Just a thought experiment:
If somebody would shoot Bush, declare himself president-for-life, declare himself immune from prosecution for shooting the previous president and so makes the whole cycle towards a banana republic complete, just how would the mainstream media react to this ? And if the person doing the shooting would be Cheney or some other Republican maniac, would their reaction be any different ?
The reaction of apathy from the (mainstream) American public to all these outrages is just plain pathetic.
Glenn,
I added one more comment to the Post's comment posting list for the Hiatt editorial, as follows.
"My count is 2 for and the rest of the above against. Those are good statistics that I believe reflect a change in the state of mind of at least a segment of a reading and politically engaged part of the US population. There are always a few boneheads who will agree with a boneheaded editorial such as this, but at least they are being marginalized and not driving the political and electoral process."
That's more or less 60 to 2. It's heartening to notice this allignment in favor the position that Senator Leahy has held to up until now. I hope Leahy has a plan to make this a real confirmation hearing.
anney October 5th, 2007 11:53 pm
An excellent post, one of the best I've read.
Lobo Gris
Folks honestly, watch "America to Fascism" and it will all become very clear to you. This has been a planned, slow deterioration of your freedoms and rights. You've been robbed by the robber barons (Federal Reserve, IRS) of your gold and now they are after your freedom and soul. The brass ring for them is One World Governement, we can all have RFID chips and enjoy our serfdom. Why do you think they want the borders open? They don't want borders anywhere. Are you aware there is no law that requires you to file a 1040 or pay federal income taxes? They collect one TRILLION dollars a year of our hard earned money to give the bankers. It's not used for the Commonwealth. Please watch the movie if you get time...Here is a link
http://tinyurl.com/2xl433
anney, I understand what you are saying but what most fail to realize is Congress is complicit. They know who runs the show and they know rocking the boat results in drowning...watch the movie and you'll understand, link is above...
So what are y'all going to do about it? Express some more outrage through a blog? Maybe stage another small peaceful march in a "free speech zone"? Maybe wait till Nov '08 and replace the current occupant with more of the same and call it a triumph of "democracy"?
I apologize if I seem so cynical, but this modern protest is not working. I continue to read Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", which today seems so prescient.
Oh, and remember that the Wiccan golden rule "Do no harm" predates and is far less constraining than the golden rules of and ignored by the modern fabricated religions of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.
pacplyer ( 22) wrote:
"Laying blame at common self-absorbed American citizens may assuage your emotions, but it does nothing towards bringing them on board or forging a worldwide alliance which can avert more death and destruction."
COMMENT:
I believe that laying blame on the common masses is absolutely essential to making any real change. When the politicians are blamed, the masses think that going to the polls and changing a few politicians will make things all better. They won't. Even the well-meaning folks that want so badly to see Dennis Kucinich as president are deluding themselves that would make a fundamental change. The Congress won't change, the greed of the investment class won't change, and the system won't change unless the masses take over.
Democrats, Republicans, and politicians within those parties come and go and the slaughter of peoples in other lands continues, and the exploitation which funnels the wealth made by the workers up to the ruling investment class has continued unabated.
Until the mass of citizens accepts that they, and only they, are to blame for the government they allow, the wealth will continue to flow upward, and the blood will continue to flow down.
karlof1, "I would posit that less than 1% of the adult population of the USA behaves morally"
-- And where do you get that statistic, karlof1? I know lots of Americans and they're mostly good people. I would posit that you're a fucking hypocrite and a moronic one, at that.
Advocate, "Until the mass of citizens accepts that they, and only they, are to blame for the government they allow, the wealth will continue to flow upward, and the blood will continue to flow down."
And does that include you and I, Advocate? Or do we escape the blame?
Advocate, "Until the mass of citizens accepts that they, and only they, are to blame for the government they allow, the wealth will continue to flow upward, and the blood will continue to flow down."
And does that include you and I, Advocate? Or do we escape the blame and the responsibility?
My read on the Democratic leadership in Congress is that it is immobilized by two emotions: lust for control in 2009 of the imperial presidency that Bush/Cheney have created, and fear that before that goal is achieved, Bush/Cheney will unleash another 9/11.
It's a Mad Hatter's Party, that's what it is....
Yep, the Queen's Cards just snapp their fingers and all these charges go away........ and now it's "OFF WITH YOUR CITIZEN'S HEAD!" instead.
I have had quite enough of this tumbling down the rabbit hole chit....... Everything's upside down! It's an evil empire!!!! An outlaw congress lead by an Madd Hatter executive branch (except Cheney, he's only in that subset when he wants to be......)
It's worse than criminal, IT'S SINISTER!
How are we going to stop this behavior!
By realizing that: There is no Democrat party. There never was. It's all a CEO wonderland charade to keep us from realizing that Dems and Repukes were folded up into the Fortune 500 tent a very long time ago.
I don't even trust Dennis K, to keep his campaign promises.
We haven't even been voting! The fiends always win by one or two percent. But even the loser would grow the government and take the contstitution hostage because that's what Wall Street elite will tell him to do....
Uncontrolled Capitalism, with absolute power, corrupting Absolutely!
Boycott!!
Cancel all your services, subscriptions.
Default on all your obligations.
Save money for the coming conflict ahead.
pac "white rabbit" plyer