"Hating any collective-group for its bad-acts is rather-meaningless while it is conflicted with another's bad-acts."

Which is precisely why i stressed that being anti-zionist or anti-israel does not mean im anti-jewish (i have some jewish in me which ofcourse doesnt mean a thing as far as im concerned).

Apologies for 'long-windedness'...the of the overall-topic (its under-pinnings and common-rationalizations) make jingoistic/finger-pointing/selective-judgment more part of the problem than any 'solution'.
While the application of 'love' may, in fact, have a salutary-effect upon such bad-actors (such as Pol Pat/Hitler) at some point-in-time, that was not my advice. "Hate behavior rather than actors" was my 'not-winded-enough' plea that: 1)One should not paint all-other members of any of the many 'groupings' they may belong-to due to the actions/crimes of individual-actors -- unless those behaviors stem-commonly and generally from such an affiliation [hate, if appropriate, Nazism/Fascism/Nationalism...hate-not Germans or Christians or paper-hangers when reviling-Hitler]; and, 2)One must look to all factors resulting-in and leading-to 'hateful behaviors' for any hope of understanding origins sufficiently to prevent more-of-same [simplistic 'hate' of actors rather than deeds most-often produces cause for many-repetitions].
The Ethicist or Progressive best-acts against, or inspired-by, the Actions themselves (while restraining/'punishing' perpetrators, whose nature/affiliations are Secondary) rather than 'picking&choosing' which criminal 'Means to an End' is Justifiable, or at which point-in-History one starts 'counting' [criminal-acts can only be Justified (though never-lauded) when greater-harm/criminality would result without that-action, or it is in _Proportionally-Restrained_ self-defense]. I stressed the point earlier (and, hopefully, throughout) that all Individuals are equally-capable of 'good or bad' actions -- as directed by that individuals Nature/Nurture & perspective of Historical-experience -- serving varied self/societal-Interests. Hating any collective-group for its bad-acts is rather-meaningless while it is conflicted with another's bad-acts.

"Hate behaviors rather than the actors."

ok i skimmed thru ur long-winded thread ... very interesting ... but this above statement stumped me ... so we should love hitler but not his behavior, we should love pol=pot and not his behaviour ? Im having a hard time with this ...and

"My point being that we all need to quit ragging on the Israeli's or Palestinians, BushCo or neo-anythings"

Sorry but this is horseshit ... even as israel commits these crimes on a daily basis and we continue to inflict a fresh holocaust on the Iraqis (3 million refugees, 1 million dead) , we should 'quit ragging' on bush and the neo-cons. Maybe you should get up off your ass and do something about it ...

pacplyer,

I have visited America only twice in my life, so I am not intimately familiar with the nuanaces of what is going on in your country.

I find it interesting how I could be "categorized" so easily as being on one "side" or another.

Just out of curiousity - how many "sides" are there, and which one do I fit into?
(I am not being sarcastic, I really would like to know)

I stand by my comment - using the author's own definition of "demonization" I submit that is exactly what she is doing, in her protest against "republicans". At least logically - on the surface - Like I say, I don't understand the political nuances. (spelling!!)

I certainly have great sympathy for the people of America. Everyone in your country seems to be acting strangely - I know I stopped watching American news about a year ago as it quite suddenly became "Opinion with a little bit of news". And what news there was always "Breaking News" or "This just In..." It became way to .... edgy ,,,, I liked Walter Cronkite.

By the way, why would you say the "world is about to burn to the ground." According to the news I watch, the world has a few problem areas, but I don't get the impression the world is on the edge of some armegedon.

"We ARE back in Nazi Germany, but for entirely different reasons."
What "different reasons"?

Fascism appeals in primarily Industrialized-countries when most-needful of Nationalism, Racism, 'State-Religion' Parochialism/Fundamentalism, Patriotism, 'Exceptionalism', and-related "these Justify my selfish needs and actions"-Mythos -- especially when the public-acceptance of such benefits the Imperialist-leanings or enrichment of economic-interests/Corporatism, which then enable the Propagandizing and 'security-giving' figureheads establishing it. Damning other's-Interests as 'threat', while aggrandizing the Interests of the supposed-'better' public/country/race/religion/whatever, by any-means, leads both to such 'demonizing' as-discussed and to the target-population surrendering their efforts/money/votes (and Rights/Sovereignty) to elitist-perpetrators promising Protection/Interest-Advancement, while 'recognizing/sharing their unique-Greatness'. Fascism, therefore, isn't an aberration that 'rears its ugly head' due to the sole-manipulations of 'rare or insane-geniuses' like Hitler/Mussolini, or merely the out-of-control greed of corporate-entities or other wealthy-'chess-masters'. It is just an exploitation of one of many two-edged swords reflective of evolved Human-Nature, arising from our familial-cum-tribal-cum-societal abilities to extend our instincts for Survival. If not 'dysfunctional', we all raise our young to identify-positively with family, then (in a non-Tribal Western-culture) our varied societal-hierarchies (be they ideology or nationality, religion or party-affiliation, race or creed). Oh, as individuals, and to the degree we can attain 'higher-order thinking' and personal-success, we may have the luxury to become objective regards these identifications and 'loyalties' -- and less-prone to the manipulations of Fascism and the-like, while more-able to separate our chosen Ethos and standards from the Mores we learned them from. However, when stressed by an outside-threat, real-or-imagined, we'll all seek the security of these extra-individual 'tribes' that offer succor and gain.
So Fascism is but one-means or path for those who would exploit any 'group' expediently -- the more-so if there is 'outside-threat', either convenient or contrived (if none are at-hand).

To the degree Fascism can succeed in a nation-state, those who would institute it must appeal to a cohesive and popular-'identification', as opposed to an 'enemy' (within or without) who 'threatens' that favored-group. The Italian/German-Fascists had both separate and shared identifications for appeal: the lost Roman-'greatness/Ideals' for the former, and Aryan-'purity/superiority' for the latter, but both claimed Christian-'righteousness/morality', and certainly both hugely-exploited Nationalism as self-interest. Conveniently, too, both exploited a shared-'Enemy', as well -- "Godless-Communism/Creeping-Socialism". [Resulting in the varied Nazi-sympathy/alliances among the well-heeled Capitalists and anti-Union/Socialist/Semite lower-classes, alike -- in the US and elsewhere]
Although some Industrialist/Banking/Capitalist-Jews were welcome-supporters early-on, they were mostly-Secular and 'closeted'-Zionists, and thus 'non-threatening'...unlike the majority-Jewish future victims. These were to become the the focused-upon 'internal-Enemy' -- due to their Eastern/non-Aryan origins, Union/Socialistic-leanings, identification with the Leftist-Revolution in demonized-Russia, their 'suspicious' failure to blend-in to Bavarian-culture and tendancy to benefit financially from their own/Separatist unique-culture/Identifications, etc. Jews and Zionists were also commonly-hated by 'Nationalistic-Germans' for their perceived-role in drawing the US into WW-I after the Balfour, and Jewish-representation in the ruinous/post-war Reparations imposed on a losing-Germany, not to mention assumptions of 'International-Jewry' behind Banking-involvement in following-Depressions. Millions of Jews became Fascistic 'prime-victims' within Germany, as easily as the Japanese were 'concentrated' in the US -- and for similar-rationale of 'immediate-threat' (in Germany after the Reichstags-fire, and the US after a 'sneaky' Pearl Harbor).
Unlike in the US, those so-incarcerated within Germany were exploited by the growth-obsessed Militant-Capitalists and industries [with considerable Western-acquiescence] -- as virtual slave-labor (whose former-wealth was also conveniently confiscated). A holocaust arose only after the inevitable dehumanization of an 'incarcerated-enemy', including non-Jewish/German Communists, Gypsies, homosexuals, 'defects', and Slavs [which, as the War progressed-Eastward, would eventually become the largest-group of such victimization of the 'Holocaust' -- in no way mentioned-here to minimize these horrific-crimes against Jews]. No 'Final Solution' was commonly waged against any camp-victims until late-in-war -- when victims were less-'useful' and eliminated as 'witnesses' when the war looked-lost. In fact, a large-number if unknown percentage of the deaths in camps was attributable to effective Allied-bombing in the last many-months, which lead to mass-starvation within camps -- when there was little-enough resources for the 'good-Germans'.
No one 'knowledgeable', however, would deny that the Holocaust was an obscene-crime against Humanity -- against innocent Slavs, Jews, and all the other-victims of organized-hatred and selfish-elitism. As for the subsequent Jewish 'ownership' of this dubious 'Holocaust-honor', regardless whether _only_ one-million or six-million so-perished [Slavs may have numbered beyond ten-million], the Jews understandably clung to this harm in demanding "Never Again" (and who, sane, cannot agree with them?). It is also understandable and in their interest to use this rationale to good-effect, among their scant other post-war resources and options, in establishing their 'Homeland' [albeit 'again'] -- insuring Diaspora-Jews anywhere (as a religious/cultural-group disinclined to lose their identity into a host-country's majority-faith or culture) would have at-least one nation to flee-to, should "Never Again" fail.
The downside, of course, is that such a Nation, bought-or-wrested from the Muslims there, insured a worsening internal/external 'enemy' and 'threat' in the mid-East (in which many Muslims had, in WW-II, allied with the Nazis -- thinking them the 'lesser-evil' to international and prior Zionistic-intents and already-painful Anglo/Western-colonialism). And then Israel, enabled by ColdWar Western-friends and donations/influx from same-nations, came to have the talent and means for Nationalist-pride, awash with group-identity, Mythos of 'God-Given' and historic-'Rights' and Past-Wrongs, and all the other elements that so lend-power and effectiveness to any Fascistic-movement. If and when Israel 'leans to the Right' when achieving her legitimate-Ends, no matter how well-or-understandably motivated, she risks "the Abyss staring back" [as does the US, or any nation-state -- for that-matter], and becoming a Fascistic-monster and security-state herself, such as Germany fell prey-to.
This true-danger of Fascism is the shared human-nature that enables it to be 'useful' (even in a country like Germany -- a very-civilized Democracy before-and-since that terrible-mistake and 'profit-taking').
"It CAN happen-here", in Israel or Iran, the US or anywhere. It requires only Pride and Threat, and their misuse by an power-seeking Elite. To defuse it requires populations/members to 'temper' or step outside of those otherwise-convenient and 'securing' affiliations of Religion or Nationalism or Racism and the-like, and recognition that we/they are essentially "all-one", and that gains at anyone else's expense ultimately visits us with equal-costs and off-sets (and 'should').

I think Joyce knows-this [based on her reference to "demonizing Palestinians"]. Progressives (and others) need to know and insist that no one-group/one-side is free from vulnerability to prideful self-interest or fear of Others becoming the tools of Fascism -- resulting in harming others 'not us' when it profits or 'seems Just' as revenge.
[My point being that we all need to quit ragging on the Israeli's or Palestinians, BushCo or neo-anythings, Libs and Cons, and start seeing all-humans as connected but individual members of MANY-groups, all of us equally prone to bad-acts or nobility, crimes or Justice. Hate behaviors rather than the actors. Division serves 'Interests' that are NOT our-own, in any real or lasting-sense. Though less expedient and profitable in short-term, victory or redress through diplomacy and compromise (Peace WITH Justice) is always preferable to Fascistic-Imperialism]

tech2,

me thinks thou do protest too much. 70 percent of the nation describes themselves as Christian, largely in charge of all three branches of government so you are hardly being persecuted. Sounds like you feel guilty for all the death and destruction your born-again president has committed in the name of your faith.

And this is not by any means solely a Liberal web site. I am a financial conservative, along with a number of others here. We just don't want to see the world burned to the ground in a sad attempt to execute a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Perhaps, if Joyce Marcel could hear herself, she might realize that the next group to be demonized is the American Right-Wing Evangelical Christian need I say "terrorist".

Just because you are "reacting" to an injustice, does it make the the method somehow acceptable??

If, ultimately, this is the American way, To Demonize!, then I predict that after Bush gets out of office, and the political system again "centers itself", being Christian in America in the 21st Century will be like being a black man in the early 1900's, or a gay person in the 20th century.

To the liberal, however, such exculsion of a minority will be "justice". And if it happens to be flavoured with a just a taste of "revenge" in giving back to those evangelical terrorist a "taste of their own medicine." It will be okay.

Is that the American way?

What was it that the jews did that pissed everybody off?

The jews I know have never even made me a little unhappy with them.

"many of the self-proclaimed 'progressives' here on Common Dreams like to demonize the Jews. Looks like we've come full circle and are back in Nazi Germany again." aafke

We ARE back in Nazi Germany, but for entirely different reasons.

Condemning the murderous actions of the Israeli government DOES NOT automatically make you anti-semitic or anti-jew. But ofcourse we all know that the ONLY people who've suffered these last 4000 years are the jewish people.

I HAD to comment on a few things which I feel are always misrepresented - because few people actually think about non-documented pseudo-facts laid out before them time and time again - until they reach gospel status (pun intended).

First - the birth and subsequent movement to Canaan from Sumeria (Iraq) by Abraham(acknowledged progrnitor of Judaism) has been supposedly placed at 2000-1800BC (since they felt that was far enough down the road to antiquity to proclaim: being the oldest and wisest culture). So far no persecution. They moved to FROM Canaan to the Gaza and the New Kingdom of Eygpt around 1600BC due to famine (also documented)- again it s an amazing thing how now of these 'facts' are EVER held to the rigor that 'other' cultures must endure- but hey -I will play along.

This is VERY important because most of the Pyramids were built BEFORE 2000 BC- in addition scholars from Sweden to Harvard there is increasing evidence that the Pyramids were NOT built by slaves (http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/070391.html). However - the time line is pretty clear thay many "Jews" were there from 1600-1200BC (again according to Western Scholors). Again we can say no persecution. This of course calls in to question the Cecil DeMille 'version' of history in terms of "Let my people go".

As an aside- the word Semite and its linguistic origins - are not solely and exclusively be relegated to adherents of judaism - as it was a root language that embraced Arabic, Aramaic (native language of Jesus and Assyrians); Canaanite (Palestine); Eritrean (Ethiopia); Hebrew; Phoenician or Punic; and South Arabian,Ge'ez, etc.

Therefore - atleast from a an evidence based, scientific approach - it is very difficult to find a 5 millenium pattern of persecution much less one millenium.
None of this is meant to bring rancour or incur misplaced anger, doubt or anything that can be vaguely construed as negative. The point is the article is termed "Demonize this" and therefore we must be careful about demonizing or allowing something to be demonized.

Dear MeAlsoToo:

I am sure you make valid points (?) - however - it would help a LOT - if you used paragraphs with spacing and perhaps frame the cornacopia of information a little better - so that we readers of many posts may find it easier and more comprehensible.

I would hate to see your passion and input be brushed aside or missed due to a lack of structuring that may aid people in appreciating your input.

Tonyo___ Great poem!! No doubt it will go down as the new style of American Literature. Some of the ideas may be on track, but one can`t help but think we need a good manure spreader to handle some of these posts, so they are not as effective as they might be. Some expressions are better used when you hit your thumb with a hammer or similar occurrance. Before I get labeled a prude, you should know I am a farmer and stockman, and we are not known for sissified language, but there is a time and place for everything. Just for fun, try sometime to express yourself and leave out all the junk, it is actually possible to do.

make mine a double,tonyo,ive been saturated with this bullshit, since kennedy was assassinated and george senior took over...this is the very same enemy within,that we fought against 40 years ago...i am still waiting...

Right on Tonyo ! the time for "nice" is over !

I must admit that even though I am progressive. I hate various groups, although I can generally get along with individuals of those groups. I know hate is strong word, but I do hate the fundis, the repubs, rednecks, and the english. Why do I hate them, its because I think those groups are trying to take down what makes this country great, and they are doing a damn good job of it.

We are becoming a valueless country, hate is not a value. They hate us and it blinds them to what is happening in this country. OF course my hate tends to do the same thing, but lets face it we progressives have the jackboot at our necks, and a little well placed hate is a tool they play so well and we back away from.

Of course as a people out of power, hate has the solid chance of back firing on us, making things worse. It is only the powerful who can use hate as an effective weapon without the fear of immediate reprucusions. Hate is such an easy tool, and one for cowards like all the chicken hawks who got is this mess in Iraq.

We on the other hand, if we are to prevail, must take the couragous step of non violence. Standing up against the crazyness, without falling into its tactics. Its alot harder to stand up to the powers that be, most activists have the same courage that soldiers have going into battle. More must join the battle of right before we turn into Burma. What we lack is organizing principles. We progressives are all over the board, and at times hate natural allies as much as the oppressor (I am sorry to say the woman's movement has been probably the worst at this kind of dividing hate)

I wish we could just get over our progresive differences and realize our children are in for hell unless we really come together now.

How does one comment made by this guy about the waste generated along the border by illegals (which is true, by the way) incite this diatribe against the entire Conservative movement? I think they're a bunch of jokers too, but this article is just too over the top to take seriously. They do enough real things that are worthy of criticism; there's no reason to take a relatively innocuous comment and twist it into something it isn't.

HEY andersdl Are you out of your fucking mind? So now your demonizing the south. You know, some of us down here don't like whats going on in this country as much as you from the great East. Remember where georgie boy and his family really comes from. West Texas, I don't think so, try KeneeBUNKport Google prescott bush.

I have had just about enough of this
bullshit. What bullshit, you say?
The caluny that states impeachment is
off the table for this son of a bitch
of a president. The outright lies that nafta
would keep illegal immigrants in mexico
because of the jobs for all who want them.

The horseshit that Sadam Hussian was a
threat to the world, so their goodless
pursuit of oil and world domination can
continue unabated. This is called anger,
frusration, and rage.

No more politeness, to a motherfucker
bush or cheney or powell or rice or any
of the other merry band of cutthroats and
enablers that allow these lies to continue.

No more decency for anyone who contiues
to harm the people of New Orleans with
their excuses or tough shit, I can kill
you because I am a cop and law and order
is absolute. Well, all cops Who think that
way and all who agree, fuck their mother
in a tree. They are all liers and sneaks
so they have to hide the justificatio of
their actions.

Anyone having a problem with these beliefs,
can contact me anytime. I have plenty of
facts to backup this rage against might
makes right. The only one mightier than all,
if it exsists, is god. So if one is mightier
all, let's shoot this bullying motherfucker
and see if the bullet is stopped unnatrually.

If that occurs, then shut the fuck up.
We're done. So, if one are not god or one
of his acolytes, then one has no right to
do anything to anyone unless they are in-
sulted, wrong or lied a hand on first.

"In 1910, recreational marijuana use was introduced to United States when large numbers of Mexicans immigrated due to the Mexican Revolution. Anti-drug campaigners claimed that terrible crimes were a result of Mexicans who used marijuana." (Wikipedia)

Next week, Lou Dobbs will explain exactly why Mexicans are solely responsible for the global warming hoax. And abortions. And gay marriages. And also tacos.

sLiMsHaDy-

I HAVE been to the south lately and although I agree that it has been overrun with ex-pat Yankees, those ex-pats have been predominantly right wingers.

My observations that you commented upon are pro-South and pro-states rights (keep in mind that states rights were a major plank in George Wallace's 1968 presidential campaign platform).
If citizens of the South want a Dubya Constitution, secession would facilitate that. Just let the rest of us live under the pre-Dubya Constitution.

Wouldn't it be best if conservatives went on a hunger strike as long as those illegal immigrants harvest food for the table?

By the way, if it was good enough for Saddam, it's good enough for George!

andersl-

Have you been down south lately? It's been long overrun by former yankee suburbanites. All of the anti-south crap that gets spewed on this site can be disheartening, especially when there are no sections of this country that don't comport in the same manner. Demonize this!

DEFINITELY PENIS size!

Another right-on-target column, Joyce! I may disagree with you about Hillary Clinton's politics, but what you say about the continuation of the hate and bias is so true. The subtle ways we continue the hate seems to never stop. The so-called "jokes," cliches, cartoons, etc., keep the prejudice rolling. Now, our relatively new e-mail form of communication is a special tool for getting the hate flowing around the country and the world.

I have seen lots of bias and hatred in my 68 years. I'd love to see true world peace before I die, but I don't think it will happen. Maybe my grandchildren will be the generation that will evolve us to a place of peace. The Earth needs for us to stop hating so that we can begin to repair the damage we have done to Her abused body and to our own souls.

Until Talk Radio clarified for Republicans that they had better build border fences before immigrants' babies (as American citizens) grew up to vote on the liberal side forever, the conservatives --even after 9/11 and the advent of terrorism--had little interest in building fences. In fact, many conservatives seemed to like not having fences in the way of the back and forth flow of cheap labor to benefit corporations.
Now, though, some (not all) conservatives seem to like fences, and may like even better fancying themselves as environmentalists on the theory that fences might reduce litter.

All that was ever needed, of course, was a special national minimum wage of about $15 (maybe $20) per hour for any labor performed by any non-citizen in this country --treating the resultant far fewer immigrants as real "guest workers" (a name they like anyway.)
Enforcement could have been all done through paperwork via IRS and DOL using mis-matched Social Security numbers on tax withholding. You hire an undocumented immigrant, you pay an that person the minimum "guest worker" wage for every hour now, or you pay the difference on every hour to government later as a fine--as mismatches are discovered. With no statute of limitations. The immigration magnet would have been magically de-magnetized (without hate).

But, alas, one of Murphy's Laws says that "sensible solutions must always be uniformly opposed." So instead we're building fences we're ashamed of--unless of course, they reduce litter.

There is no need to partition into 5 or 6 countries. Just undo Lincoln's big mistake (not letting the South secede) and that will solve most of the problem. If the South was now allowed to secede they would no longer control US politics like they have for the past quarter century.

Allowing secession would not mar Lincoln's legacy as he never gave a rip about Southerners having slaves. The only reason he would not let them secede was his well founded fear that California would join them.

It is unlikely California would join them today.

The U.S. lost it's soul years ago! The obvious solution is to break it up into 5 or 6 Independent countries. Stop the madness, support the Secessionists!