"The Americans will always do the right thing... After they've exhausted all the alternatives."
Sir Winston Churchill

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
Benjamin Franklin

"America is a large, friendly dog in a very small room. Every time it wags its tail, it knocks over a chair."
Arnold Toynbee

"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
George Orwell

"What luck for the rulers that men do not think."
Adolf Hitler

iyamwutiam .. brilliant !! like annemarie said ... riveting !! i am certainly with you ...

As for KEM ... sorry ... we all have skeletons in our closets. It seems as though you desperately need to believe in the 'good war' theory for personal reasons.

Its been great sunday morning reading so far !!

As for old winston
""The Americans will always do the right thing… After they've exhausted all the alternatives."
Sir Winston Churchill "

Wasnt he the idiot who refused to talk to the 'naked fakir' Gandhi ! And i suppose the alternatives mean murder, slaughter, conquest and imperialism.

Hey, lay off old Winston. He may have been many things, but "idiot" wasn't one of them. Give 'em hell KEM.

Here's a few more gems from "old Winston":

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

"We have got all we want in territory, and our claim to be left unmolested in the enjoyment of our vast and splendid possessions, mainly acquired by violence, largely maintained by force, often seems less reasonable to others than to us."

"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes."

"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes." -- Winston Churchill

Yeah ... what a cuddly pooh-bear old Winston. Motherf*#$er should have been castrated like his fellow imperialist fuckbuddy Adolph.

On the Constitution of the United States of America.

IT'S JUST A GOD DAMMED PIECE OF PAPER!
- George W Bush

gyptian: Sorry to see your anger on KEM'S comments. In spite of British transgressions against the people of India...can you imagine what would of happened if the Nazis were there instead of the Brits? Do you think for one moment they would have tolerated Gandhi and his peaceful resistance?

Second item worth mentioning. You said 'we were doing business with the Germans. Yeah. That's capitalism for you. I mentioned it above. You are correct about the atomic bombs on Japan. I wrote about it some time ago on another CD article, quoting the Norman Cousins article on the defunct Saturday Review magazine article in 1975.

There's no question that we as a nation also commited atrocities described by other posters. Two wrongs don't add up to one right in any arithmetic. But Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany had to be stopped. They commited too many atrocities on a large scale.

Tell me to shut up, that's fine, but the left loves finding fault with each other and can't seem to unite, while the ruling class stays together in spite of any differences.

Example...The Spanish Civil War. So many different leftist factions which couldn't agree on how to take on the right wing and eventually lost.

Brothers and sisters, don't let your pompous egos divide us. The only thing that counts is HERE and NOW!

Stop all the B.S. and come together,NOW!

America used to be great when? This country has never done a single thing out of altruism. The only time we help people is when we disproportionately benefit like with the IMF and World Bank. This country was founded by rich white people for rich white people. People may think that this country used to be great but stealing land from the natives while committing a double genocide on them and African slaves is nothing to brag about. Slavery still exists in this country as well, not to mention the ubiquity of wage enslavement. White people have nothing to be proud of outside of technological achievements. Those technological achievements, however, have been used only to kill, steal and enslave and destroy the planet. I may have been born here as a descendant of slaves but I am not of here. The chickens will always come home to roost.

WHAT?!?!?! WHEN WAS THE USA "AWESOME"???

When it was killing the Natives and stealing their land?

When it was killing the British and stealing their land?

When it was killing the Canadians and tryng to steal their land?

when it was killing the Hawiians and stealing their land?

When it was killing the Mexicans and stealing their land?

When it was killing the Philipinos and stealing their land?

When it was sitting on its ass in the late 30's and early 40's and letting Hilter steal all of Europe and murder the jews??

When it finally reluctantly joined the worldwide fight against fascism, only because the land it stole from the Hawaiians was attacked by the Japanese?

When it was kiling the Vietnamese and TRYING to steal their land?

when it overthrew the legitimately elected government of IRAN and stole their oil?

When it was killing the South Smericans by proxy and stealing their economies?

Certainly not now when you are killing the Iraqis and trying to steal their oil.

RULE #1....NEVER BELIEVE YOUR OWN HYPE.

"America Used To Be Really Goddamn Awesome"

America is Now Really Goddamn Awful.

And I'll tell you the reason: Soviet Union. America was scared shit of communism, and consequently it acted like a socialist government catering to the welfare of the people. A few decades ago a visitor to America would have said, "Hell, if America is this good, who would want to go communist?" Now, with the Soviet Union gone, there is no competition, and the capitalists are revealing their true nature and face.

mookie said:

"ezeflyer, thanks for your input. But, the opposite of authoritarianism is not liberalism unless it's classical liberalism. Modern liberalism is left-wing nutville.

Thomas Jefferson was the prototypical classical liberal or libertarian in the US.

Jefferson and Patrick Henry were liberals, real liberals.

Jesus was an anarchist."

Calling modern liberals left-wing nutvilles strengthens the argument that the right resorts to creative name calling when it can't refute facts.

Libertarians here are right wingers and conservatives all. They believe in the "freedom" to concentrate wealth and power to dictatorial extremes.

All conservatives are authoritarians. They violently oppose change, are greedy, fearful and reactionary. Jesus was their opposite; he was a liberal. He was progressive, generous, brave and peaceful. He believed God was the supreme authority. Anarchists are anti-authority. Jesus was not an anarchist.

Over 200 comments so far, jesus christ, and I make a habit of reading the comments more studiously than the articles at common dreams. But common dreams does itself a disservice for publishing anything by huffington post. So my mistake, and I often make mistakes, was reading the trash in the first place.

Fortunately, there seems to be a consensus running through the comments here that people essentially get the drift of the idea that Ken Burns' thing on world war 2 is probably this kind of sentimenatal dream state like thing that most of his other documentaries that I observed were like.

I took a course in college called, ideology in film. the gist of which is great pieces of cinema, as well as theater etcetera and so forth, are beyond ideology.

The following is a great line from Renoir's Le Regle du Jeu (the rules of the game) which captures a moment in time from life in the 2nd world war era.

"In a magnificent scene with Christine just before the end occurs, she tremulously tells Octave, "For three years, my life has been based on a lie." He replies, "Listen, Christine...today everyone lies. Pharmaceutical fliers, governments, the radio, the movies, newspapers, so why shouldn't simple people lie as well?" "

There's a good article about the film at counterpunch - http://www.counterpunch.org/sonnenberg02052005.html

Intelligent people were able to see then what intelligent people are seeing now. Ken Burns has probably created a fantasy world which sweeps you off your feet. I haven't seen it. I don't intend to.

Previous post:
Coyotita September 30th, 2007 8:25 am

"Either that, or we must call for a national boycott of the 2008 election."
------------------------
I don't think that a boycott would work. There is no lower limit on the number of voters that would negate election results unfortunately.

I think a much more effective tactic would be mass resignations from the Democratic party with the same people re-registering as independents and a massive e-mailing campaign threatening to vote third party in 2008.

Lobo Gris
--------------
No, I do believe that a call to boycott the 2008 election would resonate with the folks of color. It also makes sense, since voting Democrat gets us zilch; that is why I call on Nancy Pelosi to call a press conference and apologize to the voters who gave her and the Democratic Pary a mandate to go to bat for us, and it has taken so long to do her job. She should then announce, loud and clear, that Impeachment is ON THE TABLE!

when this administration and all of it's unpunished war-criminals finishes dismantling the constitution and plundering the treasury, what is going to be left to the common man besides the ruins of what once was a great nation?

a documentary about it perhaps?

Hi Bligh. Yes indeed, Winston Churchill was a true genius, a very intelligent man. He did win a Pulitzer for his book,"The Island Race" and his oils were quite good. He shoud have persued those lines. He was an exceptional orator, who accomplished a great deal in his endeavours to instill hope, faith and courage amongst the people of Great Britian in their very darkest hours. He would also listen to others, take advice and was not a solipsist. ___ He was an evil man, whose greatest concern was Winston Churhill.

Hi there PEACEMAN, how ya doin? I see GYPTIAN is still assuming, a trait often displayed by egotists and fools.

Yes Peaceman, Russia lost far more men fighting Germany than Americans did, of course they were fighting them much longer on th eEuropean lands than we were. On a size and total population basis, Poland was one the big losers of innocent people, with six million killed at the hands of Germans in WW2. The reason I am firm in my belief that Russia did not alone win WW2, is for several good reasons.

First, had we stayed out of WW2, as some rather foolish people have suggested we should have done, even after Japan attacked us and Hitler decared war on us four days later, had we not gotten into the war, Russia would have won nothing. It was a combined effort by all of the allied armies that won WW2. In addition, Russia did not have the span of control probems we had, with a four thousand mile supply line. Russia was not engaged in a war with Japan, fighting on two fronts. Russia did not fight a war in North Africa, Sicily and Italy prior to engaging the German forces. Russia did not have to make an amphibious landing upon the shores of France before engaging the enemy. There were large differences, and by themselves, Russia did not defeat Germany.

On the flip side of the coin, had Russia been neutral, had Hitler not foolishly invaded their country in May of 1941, Germany very well may have defeated the Allied forces. Had we withdrawn all of our military forces after December 7th, 1941, from every one of our scattered bases, Midway, the Phillipines, Hawaii, the Panama Canal, Cuba, etc, as some have firmly stated we should have done. Withdrawn, ignored the fact that Japan and Germany had declared war on us, isolated ourselves here on our land. What may have been the result?

There is a very good chance we would now all be speaking German on the Eastern half of America and Japanese on the western half. There would be zero jews, Anmerican Indians, African Americans, Latinos, Chinese, Koreans, Phillipinos, or many of any, who were not whites of the Aryian race on the New Eastern America of Germany. On the Westrn half of America, there would be Japanese only, with perhaps a few American females for use as sex slaves and some Mexicans and Chinese for slave labor.

Had we not fought in WW2, Roosevelt most likely would not have given an Okay to build atomic weapons. What woud the reaon be? We were not fighting anyone, but Germany would have had atomic weapons and used them when the time came to invade Great Britian and then America. So please, those who may believe we were wrong to fight WW2, please keep it to yourself and don't show all your incedible ignorance and stupidity.

WW2 was not 'Starfish' Bush's war with the Mid-East. It was not a religious war by Roosevelt who believed hae was called by God to conduct it. There is NO comparrison to this unjust disaterous war we are now engaged in. Roosevelt was not insane, Starfish is and he is also stupid.

it's not whether we should fight this or that war necessarily, it's that the pretext and basis of the entire proposition is false nearly all the time.

I don't think there would be many who would argue that there are times when it just has to be done. We may soon have to live and die for what we believe. . .

God, god's self, appearing in the bhagavad gita as the avatar Krishna, encourages Arjuna to fight, though it's his friends and relatives arrayed on the opposite side of the battle field. Ain't that the truth? what's up with god?

I agree with many of you that this has been a very interesting discussion. But we do need to focus on the present and pool our collective intelligence and energy on figuring out a way to take back our country. Last week Air Force commanders met to discuss bombing strategy on Iran. U.S. fighter pilots are training fighter pilots from Jordan and the United Arab Emirates in preparation for the bombing run on Iran. Cheney has order his minions to put together the dossier showing that Iran has been non-compliant with UN inspection and sanctions mandates. And the group Freedom Watch is setting up camp in D.C. as bulldogs to guard the Administration. I will bet the U.S. bombs Iran before or by the end of this year. The few grains in the hour glass are about to fall if they already have not. What do we do?

That's it, isn't it?
We've all know, since this war started, the support the troops was only a disgusting phrase to get people to back the illegal war.

Perhaps this could be the cathartic moment. The anti-war movement has fallen on its face. I have marches the VFP so many times and people on the way to the mall to by their "crapola" don't give us the time to notice that we are truly against killing people for now purpose.

Folks, nothing is happening! We are not changing opinions in Washington. Yes, Bush is piece of shit and all those who went along with this war to give him the political capital to push through their "winged angel" initiatives.

Let push back - the other way. Instead of a drawdown, let ask for a million people to back the actions.
Let's ask for a true Marshal Plan in Iraq. Move half the state department to the Green Zone. Oh you say, we can't afford it. I disagree. It means that people back home will have to stop buying 40k SUVs, and that instead of importing all the food into Iraq for our troops and contractors, that we will bring in farming programs and show Iraqis how to farm. We will buy the food from them and give them some purpose.

I spent last year in Iraq as a Blackhawk pilot and flew hundreds of miles everyday. Half the missions were total BS, including flying two Blackhawks to Tikrit to pick up a hand receipt. I piece of fk'n paper. Can anyone tell me what this did to help the Iraqis?

So we'll never get to pull any troops out of there. Hell Saint piece of shit Hillary even said the other night that she will try to have MOST troops out by 2013.

The Russians are saying we are going to spend outselves to death and no other countries are going to help because they know what a boondogle this war really is. But what if it was a Marshal Plan for Iraq? Would other countries help. I believe so.

But will Americans give up their SUVs?

"If the viable alternative turns out to be Hillary, please support her."

Hillary will be slightly less dreadful than Bush, but only slightly. She has no interest in seriously bucking the system that gave us the war in Iraq, and her recent vote just helped set the stage for war against Iran. And can you imagine her seriously pursuing the criminals at Haliburton and Blackwater? Electing Hilary will solve next to nothing.

Will Ameicans drive 55 MPH on our major roadways? ___ Of course not, that is unreasonable, even though it would insure we would need NONE of the oil from the Mid-East.

Will Americans study important issues and vote? ___ What? Get serious. ___ Uhhhh, I am serious.

Will Americans stop demanding obnoxious wages and benefits where an auto worker may earn up to $80 or more an hour for installing doors on SUVs? ____ Hey, what is wrong with you fella, you have a problem with me earning a living? ____ Actually, I was once a Shop Stewart in a Teamsters Union and fought like hell for the drivers. I was tough, but was never unfair with management. Outsourcing America is partially our own damn selfishness.

Will Americans stop voting for the tallest, better looking candidates, or will they listen to and vote for good candidates, like Kacinich? ___ Hey, Can't yu learn how to spel rite?

ezeflyer, Boy are you confused!

Apparently you didn't read a thing I wrote and apparently you don't understand simple concepts.

Libertarianism (see definition) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Libertarianism is the opposite of authoritarianism.

Libertarians are not right wing - they oppose the right the same way they oppose the left.

Jesus did believe that God was the ultimate authority. Anarchists are against rulers, some are against all rulers, including God, some like Tolstoy and myself, are only against human rulers. I don't see God as a ruler but I do submiss to the power of God.

Jesus was much too radical to be a liberal -- either classical or modern. Jesus was definitely an anarchist.

And, ezeflyer, most people here can see that FDR was a dictator (authoritarian ruler)

FDR -- left-wing dictator
Mao -- left-wing dictator
Stalin -- left-wing dictator

Because I am not left-wing it does not go to follow that I am right-wing.

Mussolini -- right-wing dictator
Hitler -- right-wing dictator
GW Bush -- right-wing dictator
Hillary Clinton? -- just plain potential dictator? or right-wing dictator in left-wing clothing?

Hi there CLAUDIUS. I am afraid you are correct. 'Starfish' Bush, honestly believes he is doing the work of God. He honestly believes he will insure Democracy is instilled in the Mid-East. He forgot, or actually probably never knew, how a Democracy is supposed to work. How can we stop him from attaking Iran? ___ Write to our congress people maybe? ___ How does one stop a speeding bullet? ___ We need Superman.

Iran is not even close to enriching Uranium to the point of use for fuel in a nucler power plant, much less working on atomic weapons. That is an established fact. When Bush attackes Iran, our country will fall apart. We are going to have a depression regardless, and the same will occur. The only things we can do if Bush is not impeached is hope or hide. Both of which are vulgerless four letter words.

Kem Patrick,

Thanks for the reply. I have been meaning to ask you if there are any other caves available? I have kept my eye on a choice piece of property near a freeway overpass that has some natural barriers to it and would effectively shield me from the snow and ice. I might have to flip a coin with a few homeless people, or better, share some of my food with them.

Hey Gyptian and Chicanery- If you are going to quote Churchill at least try to give CORRECT quotes.

The full quote on poison gas is as follows: " It is sheer affection to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas. I am strongly in favor of using poisonous gas against uncivilized tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to the minimum. It is not necessary to use the deadly gases, gases could be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread lively terror yet would leave no serious effects on those effected".

Not exactly a call to kill tribesmen, as was stated by you guys.

Another Churchill quote on Gandhi: "Mr Gandhi has gone up very much in my esteem since he has stood up for the Untouchables. Tell Mr. Gandhi to use the powers that are offered and make the thing a success" (1935).

As far as some of you guys trying to put WWII America on the same moral plain as Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan- You obviously don't know a thing about either.

Hello again, KEM PATRICK: Your points on the last post are valid and there were so many variables and differing circumstances in the world during WW2 that all I think could be said was to thank everybody who helped in defeating the 'Superman and the Samurai'. Franklin D. Roosevelt WAS one of our greatest presidents. Most people who lived through the 'Depression' would certainly agree with us. In spite of what druggy Limbaugh said.

I think many would agree that if we stayed out of the war, Germany would have defeated the Soviet Union, and if Russia stayed out, the Germans would have defeated the U.S.

What was wrong was the demonization of the USSR and later on China after the war. What was Stalin supposed to do? Ho Chi Minh asked for our help in building his country, after the French Foreign Legion saw a 'rude awakening' in 1954, but again, like Uncle Joe and the 'Chairman', they were commies and considered the root of all evil. You know the rest of the story.

If the comments on this article continue, Ken Burns will have enough material for his next documentary.
The Best to ya, KEM

Bligh: Churchill had his good side and his bad side. Just like any of us. I actually posted a series of quotes, mostly with an eye towards comedy as there seemed to be some need of it on this thread. I recognize that taking a quote out of context can be a dangerous thing. For instance, you could chop that Churchill quote in a differnt way and get this, "Gases could be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread lively terror". Personally, I dislike the man because of the devastaion wreaked by the strategic bombing campaign in Germany.

As to not knowing anything of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, I've been reading books on the topic of WWII for years. (I listed some of my favorites above.) In those readings, I've come to few solid conclusions about the war (it defies simple explanations). However, the one thing I'm certain of is this: War itself is a crime. Much is made of the crimes of the vanquished and their criminal aspirations. Such is always the case in war. The losers get attainted and have their heads chopped off by the new king. In WWII, they wrapped that aspect in a shroud of legality, ignoring Katyn, Dresden, Hiroshima, Vorkutlag, etc, etc, etc. It is only imperial arrogance and hypocrisy which allows Americans to ignore their own long history of atrocities, beginning with one of the most successful genocide campaigns the world has ever known, and claim a moral high ground.

I have been absolutely intrigued by this discussion about WWII. In case you don't know, there is a subgenre of SF called "alternate history" or "alternative history" and there are a bunch of novels on WWII. My favorite, though, is an alternate history of the Christopher Columbus story called Pastwatch, by Orson Scott Card. In that version, the entire US could have ended up speaking Spanish as our mother tongue.
Mookie, you have been good for comic relief. That is your intention, isn't it?

Philip K. Dick wrote The Man in the High Castle:

This blurb is from Amazon:

It's America in 1962. Slavery is legal once again. the few Jews who still survive hide under assumed names. In San Francisco the I Ching is as common as the Yellow Pages. All because some 20 years earlier the United States lost a war--and is now occupied jointly by Nazi Germany and Japan.

This harrowing, Hugo Award-winning novel is the work that established Philip K. Dick as an innovator in science fiction while breaking the barrier between science fiction and the serious novel of ideas. In it Dick offers a haunting vision of history as a nightmare from which it may just be possible to awake.

Wow, I was out of town for the weekend, and missed 200+ comments here. It's a pretty good article.

There's only one minor quibble I have, and it's something that everyone needs to be careful of. Let's call it "The Good Ol' Days Syndrome". The texture to these explanations mirror the Biblical "Fall". That is, there was some time when everything was right, and we've somehow descended. I've found the reality to be a very mixed bag, precluding over-arching generalizations. America in the 30's and 40's had its share of problems.

In the mideast, the US is the aggressor nation, the countries are all the hapless byproducts of colonial geopolitics and despotic European rule, the cultures and perhaps fundamentalist Islam are not particularly interested in "democracy" as practiced in the West, etc.

Bush is a hatchet-man for wealthy oil interests, and lacks any example of contribution to democracy at home, let alone abroad.

Von Braun tested a concept of adding a 2nd stage to a V2. It was tested and sent to the north pole, and verified by U2s. It was a payload delivery system. The Allies made sure the payload was not accomplished.
When someone is Knocking on your door, make sure you know who/why/how come, before you answer, happened.
War in the 1940s happened. Why? Greed!
Someone/someones wanted ,what was coveted.
The WIZARD OF OZ did not get what they wanted.
IRAN, IRAN, IRAN. Why is all the focus on IRAN?
DUH!
Resources.
It has always why things there happened. Power Polotics. Achminiwhatever/Mullahs/Shah whatever.
A Religious WAR has been created to bring the "final solutton."
Armageddon.
Do not pay attention to that pathetic man behind the curtain from the "Wizard of OZ." The reason the characters, in that movie, went to see the Wizard are altruistic. Unfortunately, what we see, is
pre-planned and pre-scripted. We seem, to be all characters in a play that has already been scripted, and has been for quire a while.
Nixon VS. Mcgovern, who served and who did not?
Bush VS. Kerry, who served>
Who has been bought and sold?
Watergate was Nixon afraid he would be caught, again, paid for by Howard Hughs. JMHO.
A break-in to see wjay the other side knew.
Democrats and Republicans are/have been bought and sold for TOO long by ????
Divide and conquer.
Do not look at that pathetic man behind the curtain that TOTO found while everyone was quivering too much to figure out what play was really being played to the world, on "main street/Wall St/local news at 11:00. "
Waje up America, do not let the good people allow, what happened 65 years ago in Germany.
Just my hm
I do live in the same country I Huble opinion/For what is is worth. I was born, raised, and served for America. I feel That I am/have been/ and will always be a patriot.
The latest EXECUTIVE ORDER states that if I do not agree with the "status quo" of whatever should be the agreed upon reason d'etre, all my assets will be taken from me. All it takes is another 911 type of happening. Martial Law can be invoked. Good-bye insurance policies, freedom of speech-not allowed, Habeous Corpus, however it is spelled, not there.
War is Hell. Why does it happen? Greed! Beware of sheep in wolve's clothing.
My biggest fear, all my long life, has been a Bible thumping, flag waving. DICTASTOR.
Bow down to the Haliburtons, KBRs, Black Waters!
What does Black Waters mean?
Still waters run deep.
Wake up America! Wake up.

Response to mookie (85)

annemarie j said:
"Patriotism or nationalism, is just more fanatic, exceptional, exclusive (tribal) ism if you ask me. pfft!"

mookie replied:
Maybe to some extent, but what's the alternative? One world government? No thanks, it's bad enough now as it is. Patriotism is not a bad thing, either. What would you suggest, annemarie j? Just open up the borders and invite communist/capitalist China in? How about wacko Russia or every Jihad nut job out there? Or would you prefer it if the European Union came in and took over.

Yeah, patriotism is a bad thing. The military in Iraq are defending and promoting the interests of the US in controlling Middle Eastern oil. That is patriotism.

I could live in any country that was less militaristic than the US, more concerned with its vulnerable citizens and the environment without feeling the slightest love of the government or desire to promote the interests of the country's investment class, even though I might enjoy living there more than the US or any other place.

You can have a country with the government system, economic system, and social system of your choice, the immigration policy you want, and you can prefer your choice over any other without any feeling of patriotism. Patriotism implies a love of country, defending and promoting its interests, and "esp: a soldier who fights for love of country." Re. "patriot." -Merriam Webster Int. III.

What is a country? Is it land, lines on a map, people? Patriotism does not imply the support of the land, the environment, or a body of people, especially when the body of people is diverse, and there are diverse opinions of how the body should be organized and what it should or should not do. Patriotism implies support of a government or social system or economic system that currently exists in preference to other governments, social systems, or economic systems.

I don't support the imperial government that currently exists, nor do many others. I don't support the racist, violent, consumerist, darwinistic social system. I don't support the economic system which designed to allow a very few to exploit the very many.

These systems, not the land, or the borders which are merely lines on a map, and not a collection of people with diverse and conflicting ideas, are what make the US a nation, a country. And these systems I do not support, will not promote, and would not defend.

There can be nations without their citizens being "patriotic." Patriotism is seen in "my school is best," "my gang is best," "my town is best," "my country is best." These all mean that my school, my gang, my town, and my country are better than others. Better than your school, your town, your country. "We're number one!" implies the rest of you (other schools, gangs, towns, countries) are less than best, thus inferior, thus we are better than you. That is patriotism and it is an ugly thing. Always.

mookie said:
"If you fuck with my country, I'll defend it."

And which war after WWII did any country "fuck with [your] country"?

None. Therefore, I'd guess you wouldn't have joined in any of the military actions this country has taken against other countries since WWII.

really tired of hearing folks blame nader votes for bush's coup d'etat. bush lost. both times.diebold and jeb and the supreme court and kenneth blackwell stole it. jeez.

Just some minor points, cause all the major points seem to have been made, and made very well.

Capitalism is an economic system.

Democracy is a political system.

Fascism is a political system.

Hitler's Germany had a capitalist economic base and a fascist political superstructure.

Socialism is a economic system.

The only economic system (theoretically) without a political system or a state is communism. Which has never existed.

Today, the USA has a capitalist economic system, and a developing fascist superstructure.

The capitalist class doesn't have to "know" things in order to do what is good for itself. A decision that makes them money is a correct decision.

In order for progressives to make a correct analysis of our past and current economic and political situation, an understand of base and superstructure could be important.

War is capitalism oxygen as it guarantees they make huge profits.

Wow, amazing the stuff that can get entered here in 24 hours. Anybody got a strategy other than fantasyland 3rd parties for a liberal win by peacemakers in 2008?

yipes, so many history lessons

so much to chew,

with all those heros

and demons too.

So many experts

all filled with knowledge,

makes me sad

I never finished college.

But back to the articles

cental conundrum,

"What else can you say

about that fucking pendulum?"

I used to believe in all of that WWII propaganda until I read my grandparents letters to my dad while he was serving in the armed forces.

They tell a different story. They talk about life in their community. Stories of people making up excuses about themselves or their sons in order to get them home or keep them from going to war.

I didn't realize that anybody even did that back then. They write it in a matter-of-fact manner, just relaying the hometown news..

medic6869 -- "War is capitalism oxygen as it guarantees they make huge profits."

There's truth in that statement, but what was their excuse in waging war, before capitalism existed.

And, excuse me, but communism has existed. And guess what? It failed miserably every time.

canuckchuck, I just found this: "America was "killing the British and stealing their land?"

-- What land was that?

And then: "When it was sitting on its ass in the late 30's and early 40's and letting Hilter steal all of Europe and murder the jews??"
-- So you all blame America for not going into WWII quickly enough, while simultaneously blaming it for going into the war when it did. Did I get this straight?

I think we should invite Donald Duck and Elmer Fudd in on this conversation.

Amercia has always been total crap. Even the American Revolution was really only about the rich getting taxed more than they liked. They made the part about "truth, justice and pursuit of happiness" up later to con the masses and keep their slaves quiet.

mookie. I bet that even during caveman wars, there was some bastard making a killing selling both side clubs.

It's "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." written by Thomas Jefferson and in Congress July 4th 1776.

Thomas Jefferson -- often quoted by both the left and the right -- and seldom understood.

But this was funny, canuckchuck, "I bet that even during caveman wars, there was some bastard making a killing selling both side clubs."

Canuckchuck - On behalf of my Great-great-great-great Grandfather, James Hall - a poor farmer with no slaves who was severely wounded at Germanstown- PFFFFFFT!

Coyotita September 30th, 2007 5:25 pm

"Lobo Gris
————–
No, I do believe that a call to boycott the 2008 election would resonate with the folks of color. It also makes sense, since voting Democrat gets us zilch; that is why I call on Nancy Pelosi to call a press conference and apologize to the voters who gave her and the Democratic Pary a mandate to go to bat for us, and it has taken so long to do her job. She should then announce, loud and clear, that Impeachment is ON THE TABLE!"

I certainly agree with you about voting for Democrats getting all of us nowhere, and I agree that impeachment should be on the table. I hope that Cindy Sheehan mounts an effective campaign and unseats Nancy Pelosimpeachmentisoffthetable in 2008.

"No, I do believe that a call to boycott the 2008 election would resonate with the folks of color."

That might indeed be effective.

Lobo Gris

America wasn't always total crap CANUCKCHUCK, after our Revoltionay War, most of the crap fled to Canada, where they bore their smart ass offspring so their crap would live on.

OK Kem - Now that was funny.

jazz

My father told me that during WWII he was on a bus at 18 and people looked at him funny because he was not in the military. He enlisted in the Navy. His father had been in the Navy in WWI and they preferred that branch of the military.
But from the way my father talked there was considerable social pressure to enlist.
He was in the Pacific and was one of the ones schedualed for the invasion of Japan. That invasion was stopped we were told because of the nuclear weapons used.
But who knows what the truth is anymore. There have been so many lies and distortions.

CANUCKCHUCK

I'm up in Canada and on WNED (public tv out of Buffalo) they have a program about the Canadian effort in WWII. While opposite on a Canadian channel they have a program about the CIA and the American government attempts to kill Castro. Its like watching two propaganda machines battling it out. A man who committed terrorist acts against the Castro regine, that involved the killing of innocent people, was politically supported by the Bush family (Jeb)

I hope someday we have TRUE freedom and the news from around the world is easily available to us all.

(and what cognitive dissonance that will cause in the US!!! Americans are not prepared to hear other viewpoints.)

thanks karlof and katjak, you said what i was thinking. yep. let's remember that america that never was, the way we never were, a recent history just beyond the actual memories of those now living. and then, bring it forward to those wonderful leave it to beaver days of the 50s! right. no wonder dumbya is in a fog -- he thinks THIS is the history of the us in the 20th century! we did no wrong! we never lost a war! we're a city on a hill! the land of the free, and the home of the brave!! wake up folks and read the real history of our country. we do have things to be proud of --- but it would have been a lot easier if we didnt tout ourselves as the saviours of civilization -- and then not exactly live up to it. as howard zinn has written - and said, you can love your country and still be angry with your government -- let's try to get our government right!!

Bushwa blues says: holymoly you are right in there with 90% of what you say. The following I think you should ditch as it takes too much energy to prove and scares off those we must convert:
"…the evidence points to their involvement on 9-11."

Bushwa, if 42% of the American people believe the government was complicit or allowed 9-11 to happen as a recent Zogby poll suggests, then I don't think it is out of line to mention it as EVERYTHING since that date has hinged on whether or not foreign terrorists did as this government has purported. This 42% are probably the only ones who are not on Bushes payroll, is sucking off the war teat, or just haven't bothered to investigate at all. IF THERE WERE NO FOREIGN TERRORISTS: then the paranoid Bush bootlickers cannot even begin to justify a need for a "patriot" act, jailing people of brown skin tones without trial, the whole friggin police state scenario--killing women at airports by choking them with handcuffs, all the things that make us friggin "awful" and not "awesone." Once it is PROVEN who the real terrorists are, steps can be had to punish them. The last time I looked, murder of American citizens and guests to this country was still punishable by law--approximately 3,000, but who is counting as many of them were "vaporized." Did I say "vaporized?" And you know who did the "DNA Anayslis of the vaporized ones? The same folks that purged the voter rolls in Florida of unfit "felons." If it looks like a conspiracy, and smells like a conspiracy, then call me a conspiracy theorist. I'm proud of following the clues. Oh, BTW, they would like to collect your DNA, too.

http://www.gregpalast.com/dont-look-at-the-flashrnground-zero-as-profit-center/

Greg Palast just shows the link to the company that purged the voter roles. Palast (google youtube palast and 911) says he investigated 911 and didn't investigate 911--talks out of both sides of his mouth on whether or not 911 was an inside job. He says "I investigated it, there is nothing there.: Then he says: "I don't have time to investigate but there is nothing there. Like the caption to the video asks: well, did ya investigate or not, Greg?? But his article does not refer to that.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A REAL INVESTIGATION INTO 9-11. We must agree to disagree on this one. The importance of discovering the truth about 9-11 cannot be slighted. If I am trying to "convert" anyone about anything, it is that living in a police state is no life at all and certainly not a life worth living--all a direct result of Bushes "war on terror", read planes flying into buildings on 9-11. Thanks for the vote of 90% correctness, but I think you should notch that up a bit if you are subtracting points for my mentioning 9-11. And since when does "taking too much energy to prove" justify not doing and saying what is right or what I believe to be right? If I were that kind of person, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about anything anyway--it would just take too much energy. They told me that before the war: just don't make waves. I say, overrun with waves, wash the mf's away with a psunami.