Thanks Galen for your post.

Fascinating!

That marauding commander Perry shelling Japan prior to the war.... Wow... somehow that little tidbit was left out of my American History textbooks!

And we have the audacity to condemn the Japanese for omitting in children's history books the history of the bomb dropping in Japan ending the war!

It seems selective memory is part of military myth, more often than not; and that the omissions are dependent on the nationality of the historian writing the textbook!

As to who was more sinister in war from crimes against humanity : the allies or the German Axis; I'd say all of them.

When reflecting on these questions of horror with the British Army in India, soldier George Orwell concluded that "all imperial empires tend towards such actions" and surmised that once over there, there was just no way to stop it.

IMHO, the only way to stop it (Iran, Iraq) is to de-fund it. Let's De-fund Wall Street.

pacplyer

"All is fair in love and war." - author unknown

Galen, Thanks for your beautiful comments about Japan. I, too, like eastern civilization. Some of the deepest thoughts and most profound spirituality can be traced to ancient China.

There are plenty of yuppies, I've seen them, who complain about environmental stuff, and then drive SUVs. And plenty of people who live for the bigger and the better plasma tv.

There are also lots of poor people in this country who can't put food on the table. The middle class is disappearing fast and most of it can't afford health insurance. We shouldn't need health insurance. It's all a big scam. Oh, how I long for the good old days, when doctors would visit you when you were sick.

To many others of you: Socialism is not a cure for fascism. It's just more government control.

OH, duh on me.."That marauding commander Perry shelling Japan PRIOR to the war" I didn't catch that part. Ouch!!!

SteneB: My apologies.

SteneB, no offense meant to you. Nothing's wrong with being clean. Being sterile is a little weird, that's all.

The entire Marsahll Plan was a single typed page in a letter foremat. Essentially it read, we Americans would assist the people of Europe, with rebuilding their infastructures, and rebuild their farms, oil refineries etc. We would pay for the damages. Not very complicated, no strings attached.

Regardless of what bad deeds we had done in the past, Japan intended to attack us since the early 1930s and prepared to do so. They finally did attack us and Roosevelt had little choice but to respond with going to war.

To believe that after Japan had conquered Asia and Hitler Europe, that they would not come to take North and South America, is both naieve and ludicrous. For one thing, they had a lot of Jews to eradicate, Blacks to murder, Chinese to murder and we had tons of the worlds nation's gold bullion, safely stored at the West Point depository and Fort Knox. Had we not entered the war, the German's advanced technology would have flourished and they would have ruled the world. If you were a white, Anglo Saxon, with pure Saxon blood lines, you would have had a chance to survive.

Germany would have developed atomic weapons. Once they felt they were losing the war, they gave their technology to Japan and sent materials to Japan, via submarine, to build atomic bombs. That top secret info by the way, is something Truman was aware of, when he decided to use the atomic bombs on Japan. He did NOT know how close Japan was to having atomic bombs ready for use. Had we stayed out of WW11, Germany would have had them before 1945. We delayed them when England bombed their heavy water facilities in Norway. Had we not been in the war, Britian would have not been able to bomb anyone by the year 1943. Sorry, Roosevelt made the right decision and I was glad he did. Some people are not.

KEM: How reasuring for the poor guy burned into a shadow on a wall...or the children whose eyes melted and ran down their cheeks when they looked at the blast...

Ooops.... just got to Galen's retraction.

Well, anyway the point is the same. Whether you actually shell or just point guns at people, it's still terrorism, isn't it? Doesn't it make the city terrified when you park a gunboat offshore and start making demands? Trading demands from CEO's?

Or is it patriotism?

From the perspective of the military man, and the family of the soldier back home it's patriotism.

So let me make the next conclution, and ask for arguments from all of you, pro or con.

Almost All American wars were caused by American CEO's worried about the profitablility of their trade.

Therefore, it follows, CEO's are the real cause of war.

Plausible?

pac

Hmm - philosophical answer - if a tree falls in a forest and one is there to witness it - does it matter?/

This is the point - revisionism - is resplendent in it's force because there are so few witnesses that actually walk around with "documentation" much less testimony.

Most of what you know is propagated deciet- where the application of "mass' psychology precedes and supercedes any philosophical enquiry.

Is it a LIE - that most of the words for we use in english for abstract tools came from Mslims - such as
:
AL-gorithm
AL-gebra
AL-cohol
not to mention the abstract mathematics of repetitive patterns in confined spaces which have obtruse applications that have been verified after wasting billions on 'educated' fools who assiduously train themselves to 'think'.

Is it a lie that the early german philosophy and applications of mathematics were 'borrowed' (I am being SO SO Kind) from the hindu texts called the Veda's. That philosophers of German origin such as Neitsche and Shopenhauer chose to revise ancient wisdom found by another CULTURE as their own works and interpretations - you may add Immanuel Kant as well as the write Herman Hesse.

Is it a lie that words such as Brahmans (although preceded by the word Boston), Karma, etc were in coinage and usage not only as words of a foreign language but key levers to to understandig the scope of life - BUT - their people were 'barbaric' or 'savage'.

Is it a lie that the ethereal concepts of ecology and honour werepracticed in the US before there was a US? The understanding thatthere is a futility in land ownership, the understandig of currency (Wampum)??!!?

Is it a lie - that the Mayan civilization eclipsed the Roman civilization in every way - including mathematics and engineering - did the romans even have a binary system or a base 20 system of mathematics?!?!

No - it is not a lie - BUT you can make people believ it did not exist- hence one CAN NOT LIE - but ONE CAN "CREAT" A lie and love it like an only child where - the greatest love is not for the child but the egocentric pathological love of seeing "yourself' extednded in time- even though it is NOT you- but they have your 'eyes' your smile and all that requisite false attachment and rational of possession.

The modern day culture is a strip club - and the gathering place is the colisseum which today is known as the stock market.

Regardless - truth is never extinguished - it is only distinguished.

Pacplyer: At least I'm willing to say a 'mea culpa'...

Yes Galen and how sad it was for the 1,100 men who finally ran out of air in the sunken battleship Arizona and the American prisoners of war, who were beheaded by the Japanese, for daring to fight back against their holy Emperor. Ever hear what they did to the nurses they took from Midway and the Phillipines?

Yes, war is not pretty, but we didn't start it, in spite of the opinions of some. I save my tears for our men and feel very bad for the Japanese, whom I came to admire and love when I was stationed there for two years. The people are just like us, just like the Iraqis, just like Mexicans and Africans and Indians. We are all the same, we are all brothers and sisters. Does anyone honestly believe, that the Germans or Japanese military would NOT have used the atomic bomb on you, on us, if they had the opportunity during the war? If any say yes, they are not being fair, logical or sensible. ___ Case closed.

Goddamn Awesome alright: Strange Fruit Hanging from the Poplar Tree and the Terrorism of White Supremacy; The Alien Exclusion Act; The many laws put in place so Japanese, Chinese, and Jewish American citizens couldn't buy homes. All; the wars of conquest for corporations during the age of Dollar Diplomacy as documented by Smedly Butler; The Holocaust of Native Americans; The wars of aggression against Mexico, 1846; Spain, 1898; 1950, Korea; 1958, Indonesia; Cuba, 1962; Haiti and Dominican Republic many different times, etc. And there's so much more. Too bad this isn''t at the top of the comments to provide some needed balance to the article.

The United States of America is a dirty, rotten, disgusting, filthy Empire and has been so since its inception. That's what I've learned from studying its history for the last @30 years. What's happening now in Iraq really isn't too much of an abberation given past behavior. And as most now understand, the DLC has NO motivation to withdraw; rather, it has all the motivation to stay and pursue the Victory that's eluded Bush to this point, And YES, they want war with Iran too. The frontier border that once was the Ohio River is now the Persian Gulf.

If Cesca really had balls, he'd have come right out and said, "When you peel back the onion of Bush/Cheney you find Hitler/Goering."

Yeah Pacplyer, the point was, the person referred to it as an invasion.

Now, I cannot speak for you, but if I or one of my family had been shipwrecked and ended up on a Japanese Island, then put in prison forever, treated like a sub human, I would applaud the ship's captain that threatened to fire if my captors refused to discuss my release. Flip the coin, that's the other side of it.

Hmm - so how - HOW would you explain the expansionism of Buddism from Afganistan to Indonesia/China andJapan - with out the use of Armies or navies?/? How would you be able to explain the ethos of sacrifice and duty that perpetuated iself for centuries with out any ostensible evidence of wars??
Yes - I know - through the only prism you have - mercantilism. But is that true ?

What does this HAVE to do with your question abot Japan usng the bomb or anythig like that? Well - I would say - that when you are able to lift yourself out of yourself and be someone else perhaps things look different.
No doubt it is acknowledged by many that Japan WAS the first Asian nation to embrace the tenets of western civilization - and so it would NOT be surprising that they were the first asian civilization that would suffer from its side effects - such as imperialism and war mongering extending not only with in its borders (the Shogunate) but the desire to dominate resources and peoples outside their borders (colonialism).

The key point - as stated by many older cultures - is that it really doesn't work. As noted- slavery is not new - but the sheer disregard for the humanity of its captors belongs solely to the europeans- god bless your heart ;). Yes - I hear the all too ready and ill conceived reply about thearabs - but LOOK at their societies - particularly the saudi's, morroacans etc - and you find no nooses hanging from trees in high schools - no matter how HARD you look.

Did you notice that out knowledge of the world stops mysteriously when it comes to mankind at around 1500 BC- yet we can go back to the age of dinosars at about millions of years BC ?!!? Not to mention the creation of the earth !!

Why is that - you think?
Perhaps it would be too painful to look past that for certain cultures?
Perhaps?
I know - you can go back - to the so-called establishment of Judaism. Well - it is a lie - because the oldest recorded writing on the face of the earth is Indian - . Therefore if writing is seen as the highest evidentary 'proof' of historicial record - then guess what - you guys are new comers - especially compared to the eygptians- amongst MANY others.

It is CURIOUS this oversight of logic and common sense - I know - you have this grand oral history - sacred and "special" which allows you to bypass the VERY laws of logic - that you have written for other cultures./

What is the POINT - I am sure you ask. Simply - the point is YOU don't know - neither do I - what we do understand is that the chain of causality is tied to aspiration and desire - and culture defines those - now and perhaps before it meant domination, death for 'others', subjagatio and destruction - but certainly we would be more than arragont - to say that is is the primary foundation of life - say like Oxygen - which is only 20 percent of the atmosphere - all though we think it is the BE ALL and END all to US.

KEM PATRICK - the case is not yours to close

KEM, I think we can agree that we are barbarians smashing and looting the temple of nature.

How sad that we regard murder and suffering as great accomplishments, and reward those who would see our childrean starve.

Western society since the Industrial Revolution was a statistical blip powered by oil and lubricated with blood.

We reach for the stars, saying we need to srpead into the heavens, because we have no other choice. Resources are too limited, the enviroment is turning on us, and overpopulation is becoming too great.

We used up the resources. We poisoned the air and water. We breed ourselves like rapacious vermin.

We do have a choice. Live small. Live local. Build communities, not weapons. Sing, not scream. Cherish diversity instead of harbouring hate. Build for the long term. Think of your childrens children. Plant a garden. Raise a child who never needs to ask 'Why do they hate us?'

I own several instruments, none of which I play very well. Yet. But I am willing to learn. I am willing to speak truth. To apologise when I am wrong, and to always say 'I don't know'.

THAT, I feel, is what is truely awesome.

On the eve of an invasion of Iran, wouldn't it be great to get those PBS liberals all warm and fuzzy about war. There's a reason that first thing those in power want to control is the media, you know.

Let's see how World War II and Iraq compare:
Save us from an evil person? Check.
Make the world safe for capitalism, oops I mean democracy? Check.
Stifle dissent? Check.
Conceive of a noble, altruistic, humanitarian plan (Marshall, Iraqi Oil) that would turn into another global market? Check.
Become an imperialist world power bent on controlling markets and resources? Check.

How will Ken Burns portray Iraq? The same way he presents WWII – as a great war with a noble cause. Look how he has even you believing it. As for any alternative view, it will be duly censored, kept off the airwaves and who knows, maybe even the filmmaker jailed for making terrorist movies. It's been known to happen, you know. Which reminds me of an old joke going around Poland under Communism: Two prisoners in the Soviet gulag are working and talking.
"So what did you get?"
"25 years."
"Wow! What did you do?"
"Nothing."
"That's impossible. For doing nothing you only get 10."

The most fucking important thing, Bob, is not that little list you made; it is to KNOW YOUR HISTORY! You might start with Howard Zinn's analysis of World War II in the People's History of the United States. Don't let our hatred of the Bush administration and our desperation and helplessness force us into putting wars into categories of good and evil. THERE ARE NO GOOD WARS, except the wars against social and economic justice.

I stand corrected. If you wish to reply, please do. I do apologize. In fact I would aslo like to write something before I retire. BTW seedee, please don't tell us you are going to say "yes" to that comment.

IYAMWUTIAM, You certainly are. After reading your posts, It is over my hed now. Guess it's time for me to seek professional help. Bye~~

In so many cases, non-military efforts, if applied , could have preventedwars. Someone was always making money supplying arms and/or goods/material essential to the war effort.

There was an embargo in the Spanish Civil War, but it worked rimarily to starve the Spanish Republic's efforts. US firms sold scrap iron to Japan, US corporations and their subsidieries sold chemical and weapons to Iraq.

My mother , who was a riveter in WWII was told to redo wings that didn't pass muster. None of them were ever satisfactory upon repair. When she asked why they do it, hersupervisor said, "If a lot of peopel do a little, a lot gets done." The real reason, cost-plus, where the manufacturers were billing the government for cost-plus. At least FDR said, I don't want any millionaires being made from this.

Bush is having semis back up to the US Treasury and get loaded up 24/7. This money is going to harm our democracy (what's left of it), put money in the pockets of his corporate cronies and political allies, thereby further weakening our democracy.Did I mention the havok being unleashed on the planet andits people?

Man, this ongoing debate on WW2 history is amazing. Time for my 'two cents' worth of history as I've studied it.

First- Sweden was neutral during WW2, as was Spain, Portugal and Turkey (Turkey declaring war on Germany only towards the end).

Second- Quisling was from Norway, not Sweden, and the pro-Nazi leader from 1940-45 in Norway.

Third- Both RichM and Kem Patrick are right in their positions on the 'Marshall Plan', but remember, the capitalist aim was to rid Europe of any type of egalitarian rule by socialists, communists, anarchists, etc. and set up anti-Soviet Union governments, thus starting the bogus 'Cold War'. The CIA did spend much money in France and Italy after the war to defeat leftists in elections.

Fourth-The U.S., Britain and The Netherlands did cut off Japan's oil supplies before Pearl Harbor, as the increased military spending of the Red Sun was of great concern. And the fact that they had invaded China in the 1930's and killed, tortured, raped, and pillaged millions of people. Wasn't the 'Rape of Nanking' in 37?

Fifth-As for Prescot Bush, the Walker clan and other American industrialists and financiers,many of them liked Hitler and Mussolini because both of them were anti-union, anti-progressive and pro-corporate leaders. In the beginning, when Adolph and his clowns were marching around spreading their philosophy, few people took them seriously, but when the German industrialists learned of Hitlers hatred of trade-unionists, they showered him with money for the brown shirts, flags, and whatever was needed for the parades and rallies. The great George Seldes whom I have mentioned several times on CD wrote about this during the 1930's when he was a journalist in Europe. ( FREE SPEECH TV has a two-hour program on Seldes )

Sixth- Years ago, on a PBS show on WW2, an old Luftwaffe pilot was being interviewed and said that the "Americans were lucky, because the majority of the German Air Force fought on the Eastern Front against the Soviets". Again, all who fought against the Nazis helped in the allied victory, but I'll have to back RichM on this one. Over the years, I've researched civillian and military deaths in WW2, and I don't think anyone on this planet has the correct number by countries, as the statistics differ. Even the Jewish victim numbers may have been inflated in the death camps by commanders wanting to impress the madman in Berlin. But why I am backing RichM pertaining to the Red Army winning the war. The facts support themselves. Germany had the best army in the world. They had defeated and occupied 12-16 countries from 1939-41 and by all news accounts of the day, the 'German Superman' appeared invincible and a dark cloud hoovered over Europe. To quote Paul Craig Roberts, Hitler's hubris was attacking the Soviet Union. General Zhukov of the Red Army had some bold tactics and was willing to sacrifice as many men as necessary in order to crush the German advances. The Battle of Stalingrad proved the Germans could be defeated and they were at that pivotal battle. Again come the statistics.??? Between killed and wounded in that ONE battle, the Russians/Soviets had 750,000 casualties, and the German, Italian, and other axis troops had approximately 400,000 casualties- that is killed and wounded, with about 90,000 Germans under General Von Paulus surrendering, rather than being killed or maimed, which only 6,000 were released after the war. Now, in ONE battle scene, the Soviet Union lost more people than the United States did in the Atlantic theater of war and the Pacific theater against the Japanese. The Red Army KILLED the most Germans. And also took the MOST casualties, and as reluctant as the pro-capitalist/corporate press was even then, the Americans back home and the Europeans over there were relieved that THE RUSSIANS WERE COMING TO THE RESCUE. KEM PATRICK, you are absolutely right that our troops fought bravely as well as the other allied forces and the resistance/partisan fighters in doing their part to stop the Nazi menace.( all roads lead to Rome ) It took a concerted effort and it was well worth it.

Seventh-You have all said it better than me, but lets not squabble too much with each other. The past is the past and we have to deal with American Fascism now.

Ezefler: Love your little posts...I've said it before. I'm also an anarchist somewhere between Christ and Emma Goldman.

Holymoly: (guacamole) This 1:40 am posting is very good, and while I'm at it, my special compliments to you for the porn article comments on the Bill Kristol stuff. ( comments? More like a magazine article. I think you stated your case well, but in spite of the differences of opinion, sister SIOUXROSE is on our side. ) I'm a trade unionist ( united we stand, divided we fall ) and we have got to stick together. All of us are a teeny weeny bit of America. The vast majority of our fellow citizens are still in the dark ages and WE have got to bring them up to date.

May Peace And Harmony Prevail All Over The World

P.S. KEM PATRICK: You have my respect, brother. Also, have a great enjoyable vacation.

Daniel David September 29th, 2007 12:27 pm

Here's a novel idea for you. How about the Democrats doing something to merit our support rather than just demanding it because they are less evil than the other side.

Lobo Gris

iyamwutiam September 30th, 2007 3:19 am

Did you notice that out knowledge of the world stopps mysteriously when it comes to mankind at around 1500 BC- yet we can g back to the age of dinosars at aboutmillions of years BC ?!!?

Why is that - you think?

------------------------------
iyamwutiam,

Superb point that one! And your posts are riveting. I really appreciate the perspective, it is not typical in these here parts. Thank you for it. Do you have a website, or one you might recommend?

btw, I've always enjoyed Hesse's Steppenwolf and Siddhartha. But could not understand how he came to write Siddartha. Now I think I get it. Some say that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". But perhaps it's (sometimes) plaigerism, theft, or copyright infringement? ;)

-----------------------

kajtek September 30th, 2007 3:25 am

On the eve of an invasion of Iran, wouldn't it be great to get those PBS liberals all warm and fuzzy about war. There's a reason that first thing those in power want to control is the media, you know...

-----------

kajtek,

I love your passionate indignation. And "PBS liberals"? Brilliant! And yeah, if you don't know your history, then you don't know where your'e coming from. nods to Bob Marley

Must sleep now, gnite.
sweet dreams all.

Good points KEM PATRICK,

But Jezus,

headaches/reading diabilities, diet/beavers

That's twice you made me spurt coffie all over the keyboard! :0

Cheers all,

pac

I've only seen the first 1.5 hours of the Burns WWII extravaganza, covering the leadup until about mid-1942, but I've carried away these observations from it so far:

- "The War" was, of course, just and necessary. Without question. Groundwork laid from the first frame. Clearly targeted for an audience that already believes it and needs to believe it. It's allowed at the start that the war may not have been "good" - that's the bone the audience is thrown to allow ourselves to believe all the other myths.

- It was mainly fought, on the American side, by gentleman-farmer types and well-meaning and basically wholesome, if sometimes undisciplined, kids, who if they lived through it, went on to become reflective, gentle, or sometimes appealingly feisty old folks in softly-lit living rooms.

- Not much needs to be said about things like why, for example, all those American soldiers and landholders were in the Philippines in 1940. And the explanation for Germany's and Japan's motivations for conquest is schoolbook boilerplate given about 5 minutes - I'd expect much more from a 10+ hour documentary.

- No delving into US financial involvement in Hitler's regime leading up to the war or during, or discussion of the US administration's desire for an excuse to attack Japan.

Burns had an adulatory appearance on Maher Friday night, with no tough questions.

Mookie, did you measure the surface bacteria count on tables at restaurants where you ate in Sweden? You said it was "sterile" there. I think that beats eating in a dirty, greasy spoon with flies and roaches, but that's just my preference. I'd much rather be in a clean country than a dirty, littered one.

Anyone remember the statement "WAR IS HELL"?
Yes every war fits that description.
Now ,that we got that out of the way lets look what the author of this article was trying to convey to us.
Most everyone made teriffic sacrifices to win this war.
Even the Black ,Spanish Speakers and the downtrodden Native Americans all went and fought dying equally for a country that was for whites only.

Rosie The Riveteer? We seem to have forgotten that women accross the USA only got the right to vote in 1920.Even today the powers that be are tryiing to control womens bodies. They still isn't an equal work for equal pay.
Now the good stuff and the point the author was trying to make.
We as a country banded together made sacrifice after sacrifice. Bought War Bonds to try to keep that war on a pay as you go basis.Propaghanda? On radio and in the movies?Perhaps many items were amplified but few outright lies. Look what the Radio and Movie stars did for the war effort. Every chance they got they put their good name for the WWII cause . They volunteer for service .
They went on radio in at least 3 differant entertainment programs to entertain our soldiers whereever they were. It wasn't just Bob Hope that went to the war zones.
And then all the sacrifices the people at home gladly made. How can anyone discount them? Remember we were just coming out of a Depression yet. To save Bacon greese for the cause?Think of yourself too young to serve and maybe your father and older brother overseas fighting. And your mother tells you to take that can of bacon greese to the store,
If anyone says they wouldn't feel someting after handing that can of drippings to whoever didn''t feel that they were contributing perhaps a bullet or two that might well save their father or brother then you are just lying to yourselves.
Whatever Ken Burns does yes it is to sell popcorn ,but with that popcorn you recieve knowledge that either has been forgotten or purposely disguarded because the powers That Be have their power because the We that Was united in WWII now are almost hopelessly devided.
We actually believe that FDR's programs were nothing but pure socialism? Yet it was greed and unrestrained capitalism that gave us the great depression.

You know WE have the power this very second to come together much like we did in WWII.
We can unite and save this greedy world from itself,or we can just sitback holding ouur ground on stupid little points and watch the human race along with most of the other of Earth's creatures go out of existence.
What will be left of this earth may look like today's Mars for our nuclear and biologiccal weapons will be used to fight for the last drink of fresh water or the last foodstuffs.
You schlors know how easy it is to start a war . It seems this is the only thing the human race is quite good at .

I close with another old saying probably not the right wording but here it is.
" We Constantly Repeat Our History Never Leaning From Past Mistakes"

Why do Americans constantly have this urgent need to be seen as "awesome", "great" etc? The "Bund" was the second largest Nazi party apart from the German one, after all.

Not everything was as noble as portrayed, the reasons for joining the war weren't that 100% noble either, and this eternal "Man, are/weren't we great/good/superior/awesome!" is just nauseating.

Trying to be a decent country is more than enough. Hardly any country has ever been awesome, except in the eyes of its misinformed own citizens, aka jingoism.

Believing in one's moral superiority because only a portion of historical facts ever reach the American public, let alone American TV, is not a good starting point for any honest self-appraisal.

Sure America is today viewed by many people as the main global agressor but it's not like Imperialism is America's territory alone. Having been born and raised in Ireland I have found that here also our politicians spew the same crap from their mouths and our educational system (well history)is aimed at making us feel like the poor oppressed (which we were but...), noble to the end and fighting for ideals against the evil British (sound familiar?).

I then take a look at what the Irish did when abroad and oh boy the same values that were fought for here were very much denied too local people when we left this country. Too much chest bashing and flag waving that has for a part gotten us to this point in global history. How can I feel patriotic about a nation that caused so much destruction
(many early american settlers involved with the massacre and damn near extinction of the native americans were Irish, then there was Austalia too)? Perhaps I should look too my parents, but wait a minute one is German with Polish and Russian roots and the other is American with Native American and Irish roots.

Yes be proud of your culture and your hertiage but not when it comes at the expense of others. Very few individuals are satisfied with politics of their own countries, try talking to some Polish people, perhaps Spanish or Italian (where the Prime minister owned about 95% of the media), how about the French? The undercurrent of disillusionment that appears to be growing in the States is not limited to that country alone in Europe too people are begining to realise just exactly what a century of pure materialism and runaway corporate greed has cost us and that seems to be our humanity. One does not need to be religous to understand basic human compassion, tis one of the big flaws of any such organizations to asume such.

If by some chance we can stop acting like a bunch of bickering nations and start acting like a species there might be hope for us yet. As long as we cling to old hatreds and outdated ideals wars for profit will be created by a rich few and fought by the the decieved many. Give people an ideal to stand for, stir up nationalist feelings of pride and honour and they will fight those wars or in this day and age just something to fear will do.

As iyamwutiam pointed out look about how little we actually know about what we call ancient history. The Romans most advanced civilization on earth, hardly. With systematic and brutal agression they managed too almost completely destroy a variety of european civiliazations and guess what? Most of what we know of that period of history was written by the Romans themselves (not trying to demonize the Romans and downplay some the things they did acomplish, just using them as an example of how history is mutable), the same can be applied throughout history to which ever culture was dominant. Going back after BC we really know very little and what we do know gets revised fairly often.

Hmmm going off a bit too much there, one good rule i think works is don't post things you wouldn't say to somebodies face, the internet can be very impersonal.

Cryptonomicon

What the White population, o.k., some of the pundits, don't understand is how sacred the warrior is to the Hispanic population, that is the part that sees the world through indigenous eyes. When Ken Burns opted to exclude them, then defended his decision by saying, make your own documentary, it was a slap in the face of the Mexican-Americans (or Latinos, if you perfer)who as a community fight our wars. Ken Burns and others need to know that the world has changed, and if refuse to work cooperatively with people of color, they diminish their own work.
In terms of these Republican oppressor years, we all have suffered tremendously, true, but what has been spotlighted is the enormous ego-driven attitude that White people of the intellectual kind are the only ones that matter. People -- it is not all about you!
I'm sure some will miss what I am saying, so I'll spell it out: in the past, it wasn't so great for Chicanos and Blacks; now it is just as bad for everybody, because this has become about class, as in Bush's upper class friends and family. That leaves the intellectuals and artists and scientists out. It doesn't feel good, does it?
The antidote is to learn and evolve. Not all of us want to go back to the good old days; we await a new dawn.

What needs to happen immediately is for Nancy Pelosi to hold a press conference, apologizing to the American people and announce that Impeachment of both Bush and Cheney are ON THE TABLE. Either that, or we must call for a national boycott of the 2008 election.

Coyotita September 30th, 2007 8:25 am

"Either that, or we must call for a national boycott of the 2008 election."

I don't think that a boycott would work. There is no lower limit on the number of voters that would negate election results unfortunately.

I think a much more effective tactic would be mass resignations from the Democratic party with the same people re-registering as independents and a massive e-mailing campaign threatening to vote third party in 2008.

Lobo Gris

Peaceman: thanks for ticking off all of your points in a rational, informative fashion. Good synopsis of WWII.

Yes, I tend to be verbose in my postings--something I need to work on. Yes, I know Siouxrose is on our side. They say we write as much to understand as to be understood, and the comments I made on the porn article were definitely that for me. Did you notice the "shock value" in places? Did I really have to be so descriptive? No, I was thumbing my nose at middle-class values and making a crude point. I'm still confused about this issue, and I am constantly torn between loving middle-class, and lower middle-class values and hating them. I just thought it was very interesting to be accused of being a man who didn't get it when I posted comments about porn. It would be as if you made a remark about peace and a man retorted: "all of you women folk just don't get it. If you had to face what we men face..."then she seemed to get upset when I informed her that I am a women. She had a certain idea about me (man) and it was disconcerting to discover it was wrong. It could be that my postings were from a male perspective, but it just seems that we get all worked up over dirty words and porn, and I wonder how much of that is due to our "brainwashing." Yet, I do like a "civil" society and, and I still like "manners"--but then I quickly despise the manners that keep us phoney and crazy--those who get all offended by dirty words will be the first to defend our actions in Iraq, say. Crazy, screwed up world with crazy screwed up people.

It seems that people give dirty words and porn too much power--like being naked. We take something rather benign and make a big deal out of it. But then again, maybe it is a big deal. See? I'm still confused. I am still trying to fight off my brainwashing--so what values do I keep and which ones do I attribute to brainwashing and throw off? My mother used to say the worst thing she could think of was a woman who smoked, drank liquor, and used profanity. Sorry, mom. Every now and then I have to sprinkle in profanity, even though I could write forever without using it. So, you see, Siouxrose isn't the only one with issues, and sometimes issues just clash. But I know she is a good person, and I enjoy her posts. I'm just sorting out. Sometimes I'm just a guy who just doesn't get it. (ha!)

Iyamwutiam; Velikovski thought the petro rode in on the back (tail) of Venus when she was a comet and before she was captured as a planet. Even if you don't buy his theories, his book "Worlds in Collision" is a fun book and a good read. Velikovski predicted what the atmosphere of Venus would be like, and he was right--whereas, Carl Sagan and other prominent astronomers got it wrong--interesting. Velikovski used ancient records and "myths" to support his theory of the path Venus would have taken across the surface of the earth--it corresponds to the greatest concentrations of petrol. Again interesting. Dinosaurs, algae, or comets, how can we know?

All we can be sure of is that the oil comlpanies will lie to us. Our government will lie to us. As Stephen Segal said in one of his cheesiest lines ever: you can take that to the bank, the blood bank.

Error: I should have said Phil GRAMM in an earlier post, not Graham.

annemarie j

Every peice of art or peice of writing has a point of view..

when does the point of view become propaganda?

Morgetnthau ( in FDR's cabinet) wanted to punish Germany again ..like what was done after WWI..and he wanted to turn Germany into an agricultural nation..which would have created severe problems for Europe ..because Germany is a center for manufacturing for the European economy

THE ALTERNATIVE TO THE MARSHALL PLAN:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_plan

A film could show the American self interest of a plan to help Europe and still convey the idea that the solutions are not in war. The Marshall Plan was peace building and I think you should be supporting that kind of approach. Simply put...revenge does not work, forgiveness does.

A film about the Marshall Plan could also show the discussions in FDR's cabinet about what to do with Germany after WWII and show how those decisions affected the daily lives of people in Germany and in Europe.

That whole episode in history of what to do with Germany after the war is very interesting. And the solution they found seems to have worked. Germany is a peaceful and wealthy nation.

What we need is a good old fashion revolution. But thats going to take good old fashion patriots. Get out from behind your computers and get back to the streets! A million patriot march will do far more than a million person posting!

The MARSHALL PLAN WAS GREAT! (cry to cyberspace)

War always indicates a failure. WWII could have been avoided.

WWI led to WWII because of the punitive financial restrictions placed on Germany when it lost WWI

If the US had placed more punitive restrictions on Germany after WWII then imo that would have created the environment for yet another war

INSTEAD the US set up the MARSHALL PLAN ..which led to a peaceful end of a war

The historical emphasis by Burns and others should be on the success of the MARSHALL PLAN..
NOT on the the failure of yet another war in Europe. (WWII)

THE MARSHALL PLAN
(a potentially great film)

Read this and see if this would not be interesting as a movie...its as interesting as Watergate or Advise and Consent

This story has a communist spy (Dexter White) and the anger of the Jews towards an attempt to exterminate them. Plus the lives of millions of people in Europe hanging in the balance ..as Washington decides what to do about the defeated Germany

Morgenthau had been involved with saving the lives of Jews who would have been killed in Nazi Europe and had seen the Concentration Camps, so he was intent on punishing Germany.

Germany had been involved in many wars in europe and had a militaristic and nationalistic culture.

And somehow through all this political intrigue and human emotions for revenge...

the US set up the MARSHALL PLAN and followed through on the Christian view..To LOVE YOUR ENEMY (easier said than done...but done with the MARSHALL PLAN...)

Revenge does not stop war.
Revenge creates a cycle of violence. (thats the theme for the movie)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_plan

Secretary of the Treasury Henry J. Morgenthau Jr. convinced Roosevelt to write to Secretary of State Cordell Hull and Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson saying that a U.S. occupation policy which anticipated that "Germany is to be restored just as much as the Netherlands or Belgium" was excessively lenient. A better policy would have the Germans

"fed three times a day with soup from Army soup kitchens" so "they will remember that experience the rest of their lives."

[20] Morgenthau was the only Cabinet member invited to participate in the Quebec Conference during which the Plan was agreed to.

The fact Morgenthau's attitude towards the Germans aligned so closely with Stalin's may have been influenced by his close friend and advisor, Harry Dexter White who was indicted by the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee on a charge of passing U.S. Government secrets to Moscow in 1948 but who died of a heart attack shortly after testifying before the House [21]

Roosevelt's motivations for agreeing to Morgenthau's proposal may be attributed[citation needed] to his desire to be on good terms with Stalin and to a personal conviction that Germans must reckognise that they lost the war. At the Tehran Conference in late 1943, Stalin had proposed that at least 50,000 and perhaps 100,000 German officers should be executed. Roosevelt's son, Elliot, enthusiastically agreed. The President remarked that perhaps 49,000 should be enough [22] When Churchill became enraged at these comments, Stalin quickly assured him that they were joking [23] Roosevelt was presumably joking, but at the Yalta Conference the President said that he was feeling "very much more bloodthirsty towards Germany" than earlier and indicated that he hoped Stalin would again "propose a toast to the execution of 50,000 officers of the German army" [24]

The Morgenthau plan faced strong opposition within Roosevelt's government. Henry L. Stimson, Secretary of War, said he had "yet to meet a man who was not horrified at the 'Carthaginian'-attitude of the Treasury. It is Semitism gone wild for vengeance and will lay the seeds of another war in the next generation."

skip

Secretary of State Hull was outraged by Morgenthau's "inconceivable intrusion" into foreign policy. Hull told Roosevelt that the plan would inspire last ditch resistance and cost thousands of American lives. Hull was so upset over the plan that it prompted his resignation from the administration.

View "Easy Rider."

Not to jump in here inappropriately (because i know this has been a very serious discussion with considerable and genuine passion), but........

If there is going to be talk about going back to an earlier time, then i would like to vote for around 1830. The railraods were just starting and the "robber rail barons" hadn't yet emerged. Plus, some shameful decisions were about to be made for which it would be nice to revisit.....

.....returning from dream.......

Anyhow, Kem, i can relate to what you are saying, but it doesn't need to be a "free-for-all" - does it?

Peace,
Ken Hausle

As this article seems to imply that America is a nation that sees its greatest character manifest thru war.

purvis ames September 29th, 2007 8:27 pm
"Let's just remember that that was then and this is now. A film glorifying war at this particular moment made by a jerk-off financed by GM and GE is nothing short of a piece of Leni Riefenstahl style Nazi propaganda. The relentlous promotion of this latter day version of "Victory at Sea" is disgusting and depraved."

Agree with this, except I feel the need to point out that Leni Riefenstahl had more class than Ken Burns will ever have. (Watch "Olympia" some time. It's a thing of beauty.) Ken Burns "The War" is a total whitewashing of history. He brings in an African-American veteran and a Mexican-American veteran to say, essentially "Well, it's true that we weren't treated very well, but, it was better for us than it was for our parents so I guess it all works out for the best." He makes mention of the fact that FDR's son was serving and that, wow, wonder of wonders, he was an officer who was willing to eat with his men! As if that is something that should even bear mention. As if officers shouldn't be expected to eat with their men in a supposedly class-less society. And don't even get me started on the white colonialists in the Phillipines and the complete dismissal of the Eastern Front in Europe…

hp September 29th, 2007 9:03 pm
"If any asks why we died, tell them that our fathers lied."
Kipling
"We destroyed the finest people in Europe. We fought on the wrong side."
Patton
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch."
Ben Franklin

Great quotes! Where'd you find the Patton quote? That's classic!

However, I should point out that the Ben Franklin quote works better in its entirety, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

BillB September 29th, 2007 10:48 pm
"Sorry but I had trouble gettng past the first part, WW2 never happened it was war from 1914 to 1945 just took a coffee break is all." And "War is only about making some rich fuckers richer."

Absolutely, dead on! This bears repeating!

I don't want to get into arguing over the details of the WWII mythology as it can be discussed ad nauseum with little resolution. However, the key problem with that mythology is how it continues to be used by the powers that be to justify what they do. If Ahmadinejad can be turned into a Hitler in the popular mind, everything up to and including nukes can be used against him (and his people) with impunity because of the WWII mythology. That is why these little arguments, though they seem like digressions sometimes, remain important.

As to how to combat that mythology, I always have to fall back on recommending books. (Movies and TV are useless mediums for such.)

Here are some good ones:

"A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn
"The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy
"The Origins of the Second World War" by A.J.P Taylor
"Saving Private Power: The Hidden History of 'The Good War'" by Michael Zezima
"Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century" by Jonathan Glover
"No Simple Victory: World War II in Europe 1939-1945" by Norman Davies
"The Fire: The Bombing of Germany 1940-1945" by Jorg Friedrich
"The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West" by Niall Ferguson
"After the Reich: The Brutal History of The Allied Occupation" by Giles MacDonagh

They all have their strengths and their weaknesses, but they all have thought-provoking perspectives on WWII.

like pacplyer i have found this blog to be very thoughtful and entertaining and informative. it got a lot of people's juices flowing, well done all.

its refreshing for a cad like myslef to see profanity in the text.

about pearl harbor, here is a link to r b stinnett, author of "day of deceit".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stinnett

in the blog, Ramsay Mameesh's post was the first salvo i noticed and upped the intensity of the debate.

i have become fascinated by the american mythology, and its power and stubbornness in disallowing any open debate on the iraq war, here's a link to a great article that appeared here at cd last week, well worth the read, "glued to our seats in the theatere of war":

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/21/3986/

i grew up in the fifties when there were a lot of vets around and everyone knew that they were brave soldiers who had been through hell.

many were not "right" in the head as a result of their experiences and many could not talk about what they had been through.

we respected them for their achievements and for their sacrifice.

what gets me about the men in the burns film is how open and festering those wounds still are for those men, even after 60 years. the burden those memories placed on these men is incomprehensible - and was difficult for their families i am sure.

"the best days of our lives"

http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9506E1DC1E38E53ABC4A51DFB767838D659EDE

a film made in 1946, chronicling the return of three vets was, for me, a crushing and compelling denunciation of war as an act. i saw it many many years ago and i have still not gotten over it.

today we see high suicide rates, the highest ever, among our vets returning from iraq so we can be sure that, like vietnam, we have imprinted horror on these men and women today. a horror that will affect them for the rest of their lives.

in addition to our military deaths (and the iraqis), we also see a high rate of profound injury (involving the loss of limbs and sight etc) among our vets.

the sheer cost of this escapade in dollars and lives has hurt this country beyond any metric i have seen discussed anywhere.

we need to stop waging war.

for sure, we need to band together to stop the next war with iran.

scott ritter has made that case here on cd:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/27/4134/

daniel ellsberg's piece here on cd the other day:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/27/4131/

talks about bush completing a coup in 2000 when the supreme court conceded the election to bush. he also warns about bush's upcoming coup d'etat, that will be even more damaging to our country.

i have seen and written about the similiarities between germany in the 30's and the us today and while the comparison has been overblown at times, there are commonalities.

most germans felt that the nazis were doing a good job of it even well into the war. the homeland was made whole in retaking the lands lost at the end of the first world war. nationalism was rampant.

although the gestapo was successful in destroying most of the meticulous records prior to losing th war, the remaining documents demonstrate a high level of participation - among he general population, in the purging of not only jews, but communists, socialists, and intellectuals.

also, like bush, hitler was not a "details" guy. in fact he was a lazy bastard given to sleeping in til noon, or two if he was in the his country retreat as he often was. sounds like bush heading on down to crawford for a month here and a month there, don't it?

hitler would tell his acolytes what he wanted done and often made it clear that he didn't care about how they did it.

he led his country into absolute ruin and i strongly feel that if we do not reign bush in he will do the same.

let's stop the war with iran.

Just an off topic note. No history in western world before 1500BC? Ever hear of Thera/Santorini? The volcano that wiped out the Minoan culture and may have been a factor in the Exodus and plagues in Egypt. I would bet it damaged most of the Mediterranean coastal cities then.
Concerning 911 anyone that has not Googled "loose change" or "911 mysteries" needs to view those 2 videos. It seems that a Bush and a Walker were key execs of the security co for the WTC where 3 buildings just Happened to fall straight down on 1 day. I watched them with a skeptical, but open mind. I still get chills on the implications have in store for us Americans.
BTW the supply ship used during the bay of pigs fiasco was named "Barbara." The operations code name was "Zapata." I am quite sue there is just a coincidence that GHW Bushes oil company at the time was called Zapata Oil. His 2 planes he flew in WWII were named Barabra and BarbaraII.
War is caused by 1 reason. Greed.

holymoly: Thanks for the reply on my WW2 synopsis. Before I address the other issue, I left out some important information last night, as it was late and my mind was groggy. Never having learned to type, I use one finger so my comments aren't too long.

Brigadier General Herbert C. Holdridge, a West Point graduate who worked at the Pentagon during the Second World War ( wasn't the First World War the war to end all wars?...hmmm ) told some relatives of mine back in the 50's or 60's that by 1944, the Japanese knew they would be defeated and sent envoys around trying to negotiate an 'honorable' surrender so the fabled Hirohito would not lose face with the common folk. But the American people were working around the clock, the Great Depression was over, and industrialists and bankers were making money and preferred to keep the war in the Pacific going for another year. ( I posted similar comments about this a few months ago on another Common Dreams article, but this is the first time I mentioned General Holdridge, whom my relatives admired very much. Again, it was his 'inside' information and one person's opinion. )

Now about the 'ooh la la' comments. Hope I don't sound presumptuous, holymoly, but I believe I understand the point you made on the other article pertaining to porn. Personally, I'd rather watch a 'dirty movie' than a movie glorifying violence. In our snail-like growth in self-developement and self-government, too many of us still find excitement in war and murder, and the American people were literally glued to their tv sets watching the American blitzkreig in the early days of the invasion of Iraq and the third phase of our crimes against humanity over there.

The underrated ( my opinion ) writer Henry Miller had a zest for life and compassion for all of humanity, and was way ahead of his time when writing about sex. I read five or six of his books and two that I highly recommend are 'AIR CONDITIONED NIGHTMARE and THE COLOSSUS of MAROUSSAI. I'll take D.H. Lawrence, Henry Miller, and James Joyce's sexual stories any day before a Tom Clancy novel. ( I haven't read Clancy, but saw a few movies. )

Throughout history, repressive societies seem to condem sexual activity EXCEPT for making babies for eventual cannon fodder and as workers for the owners of commerce and production. Look at the Afghan Taliban's repression of women. And the moderate Muslims? Slightly better but still opressive. And 'our' Republicans? One sexual scandal after another. They truly practice the adage of "do as we say, but not as we do". and the synonym for Republican is Hypocrite.

I guess there never really were any 'good ol days', but some of the most sensual women I ever knew, smoked, drank, and used profanity. The first two I could except, but the cuss words...not from females, as they are the positive force in nature. Us 'he-men have an excuse, as we are the negative force, but any woman will tell you they'd rather hear a guy speaking with the elegance of Oscar Wilde than Tony Soprano. I second the motion. There is more goodness in SIOUXROSE and YOU than all of the Republican women put together.

imagineusa: Hey now, you know the peaceman has been stressing the 'GENERAL STRIKE' of all working people. Walk off the job for peace and restore benefits, etc. the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and rescind and make null and void everything that Cheney's puppet has enacted, starting with the Patriot Act. Shut the country down and you'll get results.

My eyes are tired and my finger is too.

Too many letters to read! So far I can endorse Cryptonomicon and to a great extent...holymoly. Shoot, there might be 10 others I've overlooked with this number of responses!

Re 9/30 8:09 am
I know exactly what it feels like, Coyotita. Like meritocracy. Not one bit of improvement. Actually more ominous. Races are gettin played against one another. Yep, to read these posts one might think its the default mentality that "WP of the intellectual kind" are the only ones that matter. A good portion of the letters here, however, do not come from anything close to the intellectual zone. My advice is not to jump to generalizations re karma. Get the analysis right. I mentioned Keynes and trade and no one's said didly but holymoly. Nevertheless, whether he was black, white, Hispanic or white AND intellectual...gotta tell ya that without William Appleman Williams I personally would have gleaned a lot less understanding of the big trade-casino that contributed greatly to so much trouble. You say it's all white hubris--I hope Guinier can expand on that a little for you. Go beyond the intellectuals. Go beyond the wonks. If you stay angry at any race it's just one more person who won't be pressuring these cats by speaking the truth they're too narcissitic to care about.

Re 9/30, 1:40 am
holymoly you are right in there with 90% of what you say. The following I think you should ditch as it takes too much energy to prove and scares off those we must convert:
"...the evidence points to their involvement on 9-11."

Your economics discussion IS what the Burns thing lacks. Yep, posters here barely mention the so-called revisionary history germane, which despite the encouraging number of responses, nevertheless for me is possibly indicative of a scary ignorance level...though some posts might be astroturf. Mookie is out to lunch re FDR.

Don't know why the "meritocracy" link in my last post doesn't work. Just found this url for same...
http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2006/0106guinier.html

Greed yes, and there have been times when it is almost impossible not to be involved in war. That is both true and untrue today. The U.S. is invloved (unnecesarily)by choice, through greed. The Iraqis have no choice and must fight to survive, or become enslaved in Pax Americana.

The Burns documentary (imho) is what it is. An attempt to document orally the experiences of ordinary people who witnessed and participated, before they are all gone. The airing of this work at this time is both unfortunate and unavoidable. KB wanted those he made it about to see it before they passed, as I saw posted, 1000 do each day. However, could give the impression KB and Florentine are adding to the current war fever. Guess it depends on what you percieve in that footage of death and destruction.

Vince Lawrence: Good points. Burns thought about making this documentary long before Bush and Congress invaded Iraq.