Eric Arthur Blair,
I completely understand where you are coming from. When I was in High School I remember my Economics teacher saying something to the effect of "If you think state-sponsored tyranny is bad, wait until you see corporate-sponsored tyranny!" However, I discounted it because I was young and - as most youngsters are - I was pretty enamored with capitalism and really believed that what was good for business was good for the economy and that what was good for the economy was good for the people. Then, I grew up and started seeing case after case of business being the cause of human misery rather than the cure for it. Then, more recently, I started seeing case of case of big businesses wholesale "letting go" (a cute euphemism for "firing") of exceptionally qualified and honorable workers - who had given their all for "the corporation" - simply because the corporation viewed their wages as an unacceptable cost of doing business, and in a shortsighted way of returning even more immediate profit to the shareholders, figured that the more they "let go" the more money they could make. I guess they either forgot or didn't care that the employees were the fundamental reason why the corporation made any money in the first place. When they finally did figure this out, they started replacing the displaced workers from the cheapest sources they could find. Never mind the basic economic edict that "In the end, you get what you pay for" - they were not interested in any long-term profit or concerned with any previously written or implied contracts made with their American employees. Business was business and they shouldn't take it personally... Then I saw the documentary "The Corporation" and it solidified my understanding that I had in essence grown up and, as is typical of the older generations, I began to better understand that - as you wrote about above - the extremes of Capitalism and of Communism are equally bad and the best you could do was to try to find the middle ground. Both of them are very powerful forces to tend with and that as with all very powerful forces they need to be held in check by each other - sort of a Yin and Yang thing. Unfortunately, I do not think I am alone in my initial misunderstanding of the inherent evils of rampant capitalism as it concerns the health and well being of its citizens. My children are now grown up and on their own. However, they are saddled with unbelieveable burdens of debt from MY generation's profligate spending and our legacy of financing that debt on them and their children/grandchildren. Our national debt BEFORE this current war - which by some estimates might end up costing them 2 Trillion Dollars before accumulated interest - was obscene and an embarrasing "gift" to our children. Rather than sacrifice for the good of the children as my parents and my grandparents did for me, I have inadvertantly spent their future wealth "to live the good life". Seeing Ken Burn's new documentary showing the sacrifices made by the American citizens in WWII and then comparing them to the "sacrifices" being made by the current generation for our children is certainly an interesting comparison IMHO.

jimmyt -

I liked what you said in your last post. As a citizen of Holland, I understand NOW, after almost ten years of experiences since my being an adult, that all nations throughout the world needs to declare neutrality and take care of their own inside their nation in order to survive as a nation and culture. The world is too small for nations (such as the USA) having the claim that they themselves rule sovereign nations.

Hey Mookie, I didn't mean I'd WELCOME China or Russia coming here after the smoke clears. I just believe that is what is going to happen. This insane "Starfish" Bush, has brought us from having a sound economy to the brink of a depression and if he attacks Iran it will occur sooner.

If any don't believe there will be anarchy and wholesale killing for food when this depression hits, they haven't thought it out. It will be Katrina, magnified ten thousand times and no one to stop the mayhem once it begins. Blackwater troops may have some food for awhile, I don't expect a lot of assistance from them or police forces, National Guard troops or anyone else. It will be survival of the fittest. And will we be eating stray cats? Indeed, dogs, cats, pidgons and rats. It issn't my idea of fun or Democracy. We will decay from fascism to anarchy in a very short time frame. I Don't like it or wish it on us. 'Starfish' has done it.

Eric Arthur Blair - great post. I've been telling people for a long time that the difference between Communism and Capitalism is that in Communism the government owns the businesses and in Capitalism the businesses own the government, but I never quite saw this idea to its logical conclusion.

Interesting discussion here from all sides.

kem:
i live next door to an ice cream parlor and a mexican restaurant..americans are very large and getting larger every yr. have you factored in the extra 30 billion or so
pounds we as americans have stored in the past small while..

holymoly:
i am not gonna eat your cat..i don't like meat..
'n i agree doom is a possibility, but most likely will
not happen (at least to all of us) and certainly not me!!

i thought the 50's (born in '44)
were kool (grew up in a small town in northern nevada)..
felt i could reach for the stars..
ken

I do beleive we will have our freedom when the depression hits MOOKIE. It will be every family, or every well supplied cult for themselves. There will be ample parties also, politcal an otherwise, millions of gangs roaming the land until they run out of food. The best armed will end up ruling, unless China, and or Russia comes to save what's left, __ after the smoke clears.

canuckchuck, you must be so proud as a Canadian to be apart of the great English Commonwealth, such a noble and glorious nation those English, bringing goodness, and kindness, and compassion to every land they conquered for the last 400 years, with Canadians dutifully following, to be used as cannon fodder in all their noble conquests.

Exactly. This and the "INTERVIEW WITH INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST SEYMOUR HERSH" at SPIEGEL ONLINE

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,508394,00.html

say it like it is.

For the good of our nation, impeachment must be placed back "on the table."

While I hate all wars at least this one was one where we could see some good come of it. We did help release people from the terrible grip of crazy/evil men. Since then, America has lost it's way with wars. Now I really think we will live to see the day WWIII will start. It is just a matter of time till someone drops one and then others follow. Humans seem unable to learn how to live in peace. I think it is because some have so little and others have so much. I don't know. Maybe it is just our nature and we were really believing in pipe dreams when we thought "all you need is love". Apparently all you need is a few bombs.

Perhaps the most significant difference between the America of today and the America of two generations back is that corporations now tightly grip both our government and our individual psyches through media and advertising. Can you imagine the days of actually electing Harry Truman when virtually no one had a television on which to see a campaign ad? Harry was in some ways akin to Dennis Kucinich, and though some of us might like to elect Dennis now, it can't be done in today's environment. Barack Obama has a slightly better shot, but not really too good. And corporate influence has much to do with the reasons why.

Hillary, like her or not, is perceived by betmakers as at least "possible", so some corporate money gets behind her as a "hedge" in the event she gets elected.
Some of her same contributors will also be giving to Giuliani or Thompson, just in case. This leads some to believe, ahh, nuts, they're all the same. It doesn't make any difference.

Well, they're NOT the same, and who is president makes a huge difference, sometimes in dozens of little ways that don't make the news. A president enforces the laws through IRS, DOL, the attorney general, cabinet officials, and very importantly, by appointing the new members to the Supreme Court.

We have watched George Bush and Dick Cheney selectively enforce against citizens and in favor of corporations for nearly 7 years. The effects will take years to undo, at best, and another round of it for 8 more years with Giuliani or Thompson might very well be like concrete shoes put on American families (and American singles) for a permanent swim in the proverbial lake.

If the viable alternative turns out to be Hillary, please support her. If it's Barack, support him. But please don't waste votes and energy on yelling that none are any good and you want another Nader failure.
That's how we got Bush, and the same dumb game, if played again, will get you Giuliani or Thompson, (neither of whom, by the way, even bother to call themselves "compassionate", just "conservative.")

And don't forget the best thing about WWII: the Marshall Plan -- the American determination to put Europe back together in a way that brought out the best of the European character. Or, rather, characters, since every country in Western Europe was encouraged to recover as much of its cultural uniqueness as possible under the circumstances. The aim was to create a Europe whose chief export would no longer be war. It produced the EU which, despite the many temptations to make Europe just another predatory capitalist superstate, is struggling to hang on to its humanity and thus is one of the bravest projects on the planet.

And don't forget the Neuremberg Trials and the United Nations, which gave us international law -- the first law of which is that war is illegal. The UN was thought to be a hundred-year project. Yet barely 60 years later we've all but abandoned it for yet another greedy, violent imperialist project whose aim is to keep the White Man in charge.

Those were the days. Saving 'tin' foil from gum wrappers for the war effort (dropped as chaff over Germany). Saving tinsle from the Christmas tree because none was for sale. Playing in the stacks of black market tires in a neighbors garage. Gas rationing to save the tires because so much of the rubber trees were in enemy hands. Saving bottles and cans just to teach conservation. Listening to radio plays on the Victrola during the evening blackouts. The lights were dim and the electric clocks ran slowly during the day only to catch up at night. Saving bacon grease. The aroma of leaves burning in the Autumn streets. Those were the days.

We still ration gas due to outragious pricing. How many of us can afford to eat bacon anymore? Brownouts and burning bans. Around the clock infomercials. Something went wrong. Did we lose the war?

Understand your reasoning FCCM, you are correct about impeachment, it MUST be placed ON the table, but not BACK on the table, for it was never on the table. Kicinich tried, but Conyers and Pelosi have effectively insured it will ROT on Conyers desk.

In my mind, Conyers is a criminal for violating the law of our land, OUR Constitution, which Bush refers to as a G-D piece of paper. No one has legally challenged Conyers on that most important issue. Bush is an insane criminal also and has the full approval of our Congress to run amuck, do as he pleases and proclaim he is acting with the direction and approval of God. The God of the Milky Way was evicted from Heaven years ago.

Since Starfish GWB has been our king, he has bankrupted us and led us into an unjust and disasterous war and has only just begun to fight. Our National Debt is near the ten trillion dollar mark and the dollar is floundering, we are on the brink of a depression, the likes of which has never been seen in all of recorded history.

What is so damned incredible is, our Congress must be able to see what is occurring, yet they fail to do a single thing to put a stop to the madness. The elected are evidently not communicating with one another. "What we have here, is a failure to communicate".

I also blame our media foremost, for not printing and voicing the truth, it is self evident of what is happening to America, which indeed, was once a decent and powerful nation. It seems as if all who have the power to wake up the majority of Americans, don't know what to do, or have been bought off, or are afraid to act.

Articles such as this well written one by Bob Cesca, are seen by only a few. The Americans will awaken, but it is difficult to do anything productive, when one wakes up and the entire house is engulfed in flames. When the depression hits, there won't be an America. Within a month or less, our country will be a flaming mess with thousands of warlord led gangs in control. Any who don't believe that, are not accepting the truth. The clues of an American Armageddon are clearly obvious.

Im not sure I buy into this 'America was good' rhetoric. We were very happily dealing with the Nazis and profiting from that war machine till pearl harbour happened and we were forced to get into the war. Also we nuked Japan when they were on the point of folding anyways. We didnt have to use nuclear weapons but we did anyways to basically test it out and show our dominance. Its too easy to look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. We are and have been an imperial power for the last 100 years or more.

This is getting ridiculous. Comparing the illegal occupation of Iraq first to the Vietnam War, and now World War II? Please. For the Bush Administration to nostalgically compare what is transpiring today to World War II is beyond a stretch, but wholly disillusionary, and in fact, as the author says "the comparison is total horseshit." Here is what will be written in the history books "the George W. Bush Administration was by far the worst in American history" (and it would not be far off the mark to say the same about this Congress). If you really want to compare it to any other time in history, and even then it is a stretch and insulting to historic figures during those times, MAYBE the beginning of the Gilded Age in 1870, or perhaps during the presidency of James Buchanan. But in reality, the George W. Bush Presidency (I have an incredibly difficult time saying and believing that because he never was nor is my President) really ought to be placed in a category of its own: Presidents and pop-up books.

Who can save the good still left in America before it is too late?

America was united during WWII, agreeing about the cause of the war.
Imperial Japan sneak-attacked Pearl Harbor (before informing us of their declaration of war). Hitler's Germany declared war on the USA.
In both cases America saw the direct and potent threat because it was there, because the other side initiated it.

Iraq never attacked the USA, never threatened the USA, never declared war.
Some of America saw a direct and potent threat because this government lied and said that there was.

There can never be whole-hearted public support for a war of choice. Especially a stupid one that isn't even being paid for. Too many people see the hypocrisy, the greed, the insanity.
The rest of the people won't see it until the inevitable catastrophe occurs.

And here is todays military...

Listen to the 'commentary'... disgusting.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QCyzvTJguCs

And these 'fun loving' boys will soon be coming home... bet you can't wait for them to date your daughters and sisters.

Don'tcha just feel proudern'shit.

Bob Cesca calls his article into question is the first sentence. he is captivated by ken burns. the man who only included the hispanic contribution to w.w.2 under duress. cesca also calls up the idea of manifest destiny and american exceptionalism by using the word awesome. Edward W. Wood Jr. in a book called "Worshipping the Myths of World War II: Reflections on America's Dedication to War" stated the four myths of w.w.2 which are 1) The Good War. 2) The Greatest Generation. 3) We Won World War II Largely on Our Own. And 4), When Evil Lies in Others, War Is the Means to Justice. yesterday is not today and glorifying the past does nothing for the present. whether the metaphor is used by cesca or neocons

Basically he's commenting on the golden age of the American Middle Class (and the most frankly 'socialist' era of American History) -- 1939 - 1980 (roughly)

Bob,

Your heart attempts to be in the right place. Many would say the same of GWB.

You still don't get it.

Your glorification of past wars and "sacrifice" is what drives the numbskulls of today. Our war in the Pacific was to reclaim and defend our colonies of the previous century. The acquisition of these colonies cost hundred of thousands of lives. The re-acquisition cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

The SECOND world war in Europe was just a continuation of the first - which was over colonialism and how to divide the spoils of the world by the ruling elite. The only thing that changed was the names of the governments, the levels of mechanization of death and the individuals who got in the way.

I am sorry to tell you - soldiers are terrorists. It is what militaries do. They terrorize other nations and militaries. Support a military and you support terrorism. It is just how it is.

There is only one nation and one generation that has used an atomic weapon on human targets. Maybe that is the human "sacrifice" you should think about. Can Ken Burns make you feel good about that?

Absence of, or, "little dissent" is a good thing? Ken Burns and yourself should make a very good documentary on Stalin.

Once again, I am sorry. Peace is peace. War is war. The level of "sacrifice" does not equal rightousness.

gyptian is right - the only "honorable" period was the Depression and WW2. The capitalists were sweating about impending "socialist" ideas, then old brother Adolph provided them with a war. The rest of U.S. history is pretty dismal. [unless you were in the upper class. They're still sucking the patriotism and glory out of WW2 - heroes, warriors, blah blah.

I do NOT believe America started the second world war SEEDEEVEE. In fact we stayed out of it as long as possible. After Japan attacked us, with no prior warning, Germany declared war on the United States. Of course we could have just sat back, done nothing I suppose and continued to much our popcorn while watching the war progress on Movie Tone News when we went to see a double feature movie. How often should one get smacked in the head before they strike back? But this disasterous war with Iraq, is nothing but war crimes committed by America.

American Myth Used To Be Really Goddamn Awesome!
by Ramsay Mameesh

"I've been nauseated by Ken Burns' The War this week and it struck me how deluded Americans remain."

I grew up on the same myth that Bob Cesca did, America saves the world from evil, and if everyone were like Americans the world would be a better place.

It's hard to let go of myths and face the truth. Myths are warm and comforting. The truth can be cold and hard.

Bob, America was founded on genocide and slavery. Our economic growth has been, and continues to be, dependent on the domination and subjugation of foreign countries and peoples. No myth, no matter how we try, can escape that truth.

Aren't you sick of celebrating war? I find Ken Burns' production sappy and jingoistic - and not nearly as good as the "Civil War".

Bob, Did you see the episode about the Phillipines? The one where that poor cute little white girl, kept a diary, while imprisoned with her family by the Japanese? The documentary mentions that her family was rich and owned a sugar plantation. Know how they got that sugar plantation? Forty years earlier the U.S. military killed 100,000 Phillipino's when they resisted the U.S.'s imperialistic take-over of the Spanish colony. That's right Bob, the Phillipino's wanted freedom, but instead they got to work like indentured slaves on sugar plantations - not for the Japanese but for U.S. That didn't make the show, did it Bob? No, because it doesn't work well with the "Myth".

Another truth Bob? Hitler was rolling over Europe, killing Jews (we turned back a boat load of Jews, many of whom ended up in concentration camps, not in the show either), England was being bombed, the Japanese were raping Asia, and Americans didn't give a damn! That's right we didn't care, didn't want to care, we were sick of European wars, and weren't interested in another one. The stupid Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, well you know the rest of the story, you can watch the documentary to find out.

Fire bombing Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki,killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, were those really necessary to win the "good war", like the myth says?

I'm sick of war, I'm tired of talking about war, celebrating past wars, debating future wars. Bob, read Orwell to understand, how constant war and past victories, are utilized to control the people.

America, the myth, is dying. And nothing you or, anyone else writing here, can save it.

Since you like to use expletives in your writing, and before anyone jumps down my throat, for trying to shatter the myth, let me just say:

My uncle received a Purple Heart in France, as a tank commander, for Patton. My great-uncles, were in the navy, and fought the Japanese in the Pacific. My grandmothers family village was exterminated, in Checkoslavakia, for resisting the Nazis (a movie was made about it).And my great-grandfather, was hauled off by the Gestapo in Nazi occupied Hungary, for flying an American flag from his balcony on the fourth of July. So, I can say and write whatever the fuck I want about the "Good War."

Cut the "Good War" crap out, it doesn't help in any way, prevent the "Bad War" from happening. All wars are bad - even necessary ones.

Ramsay

I agree with gyptian-unfortunately. A more dispassionate and objective review of American history will show un-necessary wars and an expressway of broken promises that start with the American Indians, African-Americans extending themselves via "Manifest Destiny" to Mexico, the phillipines(Mark Twain poignaniant essay on how American troops -25 in number massacred 300 women,children and elderly hiding in an extinct volcano crater was incredibly moving), Cuba (atleast twice), etc and now to Iraq.

Within the last 4 decades since the end of world war two (the so-called Golden years of a GOOD America-- we have had undeclared wars on such 'threats' to humanity ranging from Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Grenada, El-Salvador, Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Columbia, Panama (again more than one), Iran with the placement of the Shah, Iraq with the placement and displacement of Saddam Hussien, not to mention Lebanon.

Don't get me wrong - I am not a 'hater' but I do recognize the fact -that too many of us -simply choose to "forget" the multiple wars and usurping of democracies instigated, supported, planned etc by the 'greatest" country in the world. None of this is NEWS - and quite frankly Chomsky's -"Hegemony or Survial" is but one tome that has AMPLY documented the fact that the only people who don't know this is Americans.

This is only partly due to the illusion of free speech but I am sure more emphatically due to wearing spectacles that are heavily tinted with nationa pride and fogged over with the condensation of lies meeting the cold air of truth. At some point- jingoistic movies, and gross exaggeration of half-truths tend to wear off -its like advertising in some way - after a ceaseless barrage -the individual shuts down and realizes that the grains of truth are ever fewer and ever smaller.

This is not to say that this does not DEFINTELY apply to other so-called civilized countries like Belgium (the Congo), Germany and France (too much too list), Russia, Australia, Japan etc. However- one must realize that these injustices have been supported by the best fertilizer a government can have - which is indifference to the consequences to others (even if it means we are talking in the billions of souls) -in order to have the house, white picket fence , two car garage with 3 cars and the requisite 2.2 kids.

Feel good propaganda.
The truth is, and yes it sucks, is that only TWICE in its history have American soldiers truly fought for freedom. First, the American Revolution and second, the confederate soldiers for their freedom as per the Constitution.
All the other wars were business/banker wars. Period.

Now go ahead and parrot the Nazi evil, Soviet threat, Communist threat, yada yada.

Think about it and the truth, not what you want or need the truth to be.

RICHM, I won't say you are full of shit, don't wish too be as obnoxious as you are with your one sided comments about the thousands of Americans who died and or who were seriously wounded fighting Japan and Germany. Certainly the Russians fought bravely and they suffered greatly from Hitler's war. They didn't win the war all by their lonesome though. They didn't lose thousands of bomber crew members who bombed the German industrial complex to the stone age. Russia didn't have to fight massive sea battles and lose thousands of men to submarine warfare, men bravely taking supplies to England and Russia. Russians didn't have to land on the shores of France and then fight across France to gain entry into Germany. They didn't fight the Germans in North Africa and Italy. If America had not fought in World War Two, Hitler could have easily won and Russia would have been part of Hitler's Thousand year reign. If Russia hadn't been in it, the war would have dragged on for another year or two.
So stow your one sided bull, it was a world war and everyone who fought the Germans and Japanese deserves th e full credit due.

KEM: Sorry, the US gov't knew Pearl Harbour was coming. They had broken the Japanese 'Purple' code months before, and had been listening in as it were for the entire planning phase. Pearl Harbour was ALLOWED to happen, as the US gov't needed an excuse to expand it's presence in the Pacific and retake the Phillipine Islands, as well as spur the economy by rebuilding the soon to be mothballed Pacific fleet battle ships. Battleships that had been proven to be catastrophicly vulnerable to aircraft, and they needed an excuse to appropriate funds to build aircraft carriers.

Should we mention that Henry ford, icon of American capitalism, agreed with and supported the murderou policies of Hitler. Bush's own grandaddy sat on the Board of IG Farben, maker of the Zyclon B gas used in the death camps, as well as being Hitler' banker. He was censured by Congress for trading with the enemy.

During the war, advanced Nazi aircraft were shot down and inside the cockpit was flight instrumentation maufactuerd in Kansas. The LATEST flight instrumentation.

Adn after the war how many Nazi scientists were snapped up during Project Paperclip? The same scientists who had operated in the death camps. Or worked slave labour to death in the rocket facility in Penemunde. The iconic, archetypal 'rocket scientist' Wehrner von Braun was one such.

The US participated in the firebombings of Dresden, Hamburg and Rotterdam. Acts of war and horror that killed more people than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Except in Germany, the victims weren't flashed into vapour. They slowly roasted and suffocated.

"It's like saying a doofus villain like Solomon Grundy is the next Lex Luthor."

**Ah yes Solomon Grundy. I prefer Gorilla Grodd myself.
Bob--I admire your geeky affection for DC Comics, but real life doesnt work like a comic book(well, maybe an Alan Moore one).

If you want a story about super heroes fighting and a more realistic and honest portrayal of war, try the Iliad by Homer.

Tired, old Republican lie that needs to be retired: "We didn't ask for this war. We were hit on 9/11" (because BushCo ignored the many warnings).

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The GOP liars think we're all stupid.

Since the subject of my post is Republican lies, here's another whopper: "Canadians come here for medical care so they don't have to wait to see a doctor." haha

Snowbirds from Canada may occasionally see an American doctor when some of them are here for a few months during the winter, but that doesn't mean they hate their socialized medicine.

I've been to Canada several times on vacation, and the Canadians have told me they are very happy with their health care system and do not want anything like American health care.

By the way, I know plenty of people who have told me here in the U.S. that they have to wait several weeks to see a doctor. That's what the right-wingers approve of; not enough doctors available so that exorbitant rates can be charged for services when a patient is finally seen.

Kem Patrick,

Did you read my post? I don't recall saying anything about who started the war. In fact, I specifically said "The SECOND world war in Europe was just a continuation of the first."

But it is good to know what you "do NOT believe". Perhaps you should read some history on what was occurring in Asia before "Japan attacked us, with no prior warning". There is that little thing about our previous invasion of Japan by Commodore Perry, our WWII-era blockade of raw materials into Japan, etc.

Our national ignorance is no less today than it was before. Perhaps, with study, you will understand that the German and Japanese people were fed the same "How often should one get smacked in the head before they strike back?" propaganda.

Hi Galen. You are correct, except for one very important thing. Roosevelt didn't know WHEN Japan would strike, and although the code was broken, not everythng Japan planned was broadcast over the radio airways. Rossevelt did not have suffecint intelligence to start a war with Japan, nor did the American public wish to become involved in the war in Europe. Roosevelt and Marshall did have enough intel to warn the commanders of Pearl Harbor, they should elevate their security and prepardness. Of course that had been done months prior to Dec 7, 41. The military became compalcient and never dreampt Japan would launch an air attack against Pearl Harbor. General Billy Mitchell did, he predicted it, __ but no one, or very few listened.

my grandmother can no longer buy bacon because it's too expensive.

Ramsay ... excellent post.

The people living under the British empire did not and cannot see the difference between the Germans and the British. You have to look at it from a totally different view to understand it. WW2 was a 'good' war for Americans and the British but it did not 'save' the world. All the heroics by the Americans in WW2 was to save themselves maybe and the capitalist system. 60 years ago if you asked a Philipino or an Indian if they preferred the Germans or Americans/British they would have looked at you in disbelief !

What you all forget is the tremendous support for Nazi Germany that existed in the US - just google 'German-American Bund'.

It was not even just the industrialists and other notables - Ford, Lindberg, Walker(yes that Walker). It was a very large organization. My father used to talk about its influence. There are those who say that if Pearl Harbor had not happened, the US would have joined the war on the side of the Axis.

Even being at war with Germany made no difference to some corporations. After all the Walker side of the Bush family bank represented the 3rd Reich until late 1942.

Much of this is documented in a book titled "America, Inc. - who owns and operates the US". This book is a good background for the current corporatist environment. I first read it 35 years ago.

Mintz, Morton and Cohen, Jerry S. "America, Inc.: Who Owns and Operates the United States." New York: Dell Publishing, 1971. 424 pages.
Morton Mintz, a Washington Post reporter, and Jerry S. Cohen, former chief counsel of the Senate Antitrust and Monopoly Subcommittee, teamed up in the 1970s to write two blockbuster books -- America, Inc. and Power, Inc. -- on corruption in the U.S. Both cover the same territory: bribery, profiteering, special-interest lobbying, politicians, regulatory agencies, monopolies, concentration of power in the media, white collar crime, lack of accountability, government and corporate secrecy, influence of big money on elections, the national security state, and self-dealing in the professions (doctors, dentists, accountants, banks, unions, insurance). Both also use the same technique of making a point my naming names and giving specific examples culled from news accounts and other sources.
Remember, this was the 1970s when corruption wasn't an issue in America. Two decades later the infrastructure is collapsing, the economy is sick, and the shrinking middle class is wondering how their kids will afford an education and be able to buy their own homes. The dollar value of the examples provided in these books provokes barely a yawn these days -- after the deficits, savings and loan scandals, junk bonds, and golden parachutes of the 1980s. But Mintz and Cohen saw it coming, and it's not their fault that no one addressed the issue while there was still time.
ISBN unavailable

Ken Burn's stuff is pro war propaganda and is sponsored on PBS by Mobil Oil. His take is simply that WW2 was 'the good war' that all other US wars have tried to also be, but have simply failed to measure up. We were tough back then, he thinks, and righteous. All this is the familiar US academic rewriting of history though.

The reality waas far more nuanced. In fact, it was the Chinese and Russians that took the bite out out of our enemies, and then the US jumped in to promptly betray the anti-Fascist Resistance everywhere.

Then we turned on Russia and China and fought them for decades, threatening to use nuclear weapons to destroy those peoples.

We also backed up the Portuguese and Spanish fascists for decades after 1945, and backed the racist South African White Apartheid regime and the Zionist oppression of the indigenous population of the Middle East. This was all a grand continuation of the 'good war', was it not?

Some folk at my local Justice and Peace group also liked this PBS nonsense. They saw it as somehow being antiwar! I just don't get how so many liberal folk can get led around so easily on these issues? Painting a picture of war as being nasty yet somehow necessary is not my idea of a Peace theme.

I watched "The War". I was a child during WW2 and watching the program caused me to remember things about it.

Our current war, contrary to Bush's claim, is nothing like the second world war. While it is true that we were never bombed, everyone was involved with the war.

We saved everything. I remember that it was my job to flatten the tin cans. I would take them outside and jump up and down on them. We bundled up newspapers and other paper, saved string (I have no idea why), and gave away clothes that got too small. Everything was rationed - gas, food. Since there was so little gas, we walked almost everywhere. As little as I was, I and my bicycle basket were used to bring home groceries. There was a sign at our local grocery that would never be there now. It said, "Ladies, bring your fat cans in on Friday." Yes, we saved grease. It could be used in munitions.

There with small banners in windows with stars on them. The number of stars indicated the number of family members in service. All of us knew someone who had been killed. Our neighbor's son went down with his ship. I remember trying to figure out what it was like to be "buried at the bottom of the ocean".

We had an army camp nearby. After church on Sunday, any soldiers that had come to the service were sent home to dinners with church members. Southern Indiana was certainly not integrated, but there were black soldiers and, since they were our boys in uniform, they were included.

Everyone was happy when the war ended. I had a special reason. I liked to listen to my programs on the radio. I remember the "Long Ranger" was one of them. If my father was home, we had to hear the war news instead. It was never the news, but always the war news. When the war ended, I thought there wouldn't be any more news and I could listen to my programs.

The idea that Bush would try to compare the "War on Terror" with this is disgusting.

If the US had joined the League of Nations and the world had united against Hitler early on there might not have been a WWII.

Hitler never won more than 40% of the German vote. He could have been stopped if there had been an EU

But that generation was very racist and nationalistic and xenophobic. Plus they had arranged for extreme punitive measures against Germany after WWI, which created an atmosphere that led to a second war.

But the greatness of the time was the Marshall Plan and a restructuring of the German government and the school system, that changed the German culture. (A hint for how to change Iraq)

Fighting in a war indicates a failure. War should be avoided and not glorified.

Where are the films glorifying the Marshall Plan? Hmmm?

Galen, I agree. History seems to support that FDR planned for Pearl Harbor, allowed it to happen, all because he wanted to come to Britian's aid. His motivations were good, I think--he saw Hilter taking over the world and Churchill was constantly asking for help. Still, FDR had to convince a pacifist nation to go to war. While it is true that the Japanese tried to pull a sneak attack, it is also true that the U.S. had cut off her oil supply and expected her to retaliate. It looks like the commander at Peral Harbor was the only one not informed of what was going to happen--and he was made a scapegoat. It is hard to accept this, just as it is hard to accept that 9-11 was an inside job--but if it looks like a dead rat and smells like one, it probably is one. Don't get me wrong, the Japanese were absolute savages in WWII (their soldiers), but that is no excuse for Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Those scientists wanted to know what those bombs would do to pristine targets--targets that had never suffered war damage. My dad fought the Japanese in the Philipines and was on his way to invade Japan. He was not looking forward to fighting the Japanese on their soil, and when they dropped the bombs, he knew the war was over. So, he believed to his dying day that the bombs probably saved his life and the life of his buddies. This, at least, is what they were told by our government--although there is evidence that the Japanese would have surrendered without dropping those bombs--and if not, surely one bomb would have done it instead of two.

If someone were to cut off our oil supply like we did the Japanese, well, you know what would happen--just the threat of not controlling oil has brought us the current "conflict" in Iraq. Years ago, when I was very young and travelling in a Grayhound Bus, I met a young man from Japan. He was seeing the U.S. We tried to talk through a dictionary. He tried to tell me that Japan was justified in bombing Pearl Harbor, but I was so brainwashed by the school system, I couldn't even listen to his defense. When I became an adult and began to self-educate, I began to see that he had his points--I was just too brainwashed to listen.

Soo, while my father thought he should join the army at 18 and go make the world safe from Hitler (and was sent to the Pacific instead), Bush's granddaddy and the American Corporations were getting rich off of Nazi slave labor and by providing funds to Hitler. Funny little world isn't it? It is what happens when you are fucking brainwashed and are played like a fiddle by those in power. So shut the fuck up Ken Burns about the "good war." There is no such thing!!! The Bushes still rule--get admitted to Ivy League schools, run the CIA, join their Skull and Bones secret societies--worship their own devils. Farm boy's kid just tries to get an education and eek out a living in some way that doesn't screw others over--hard to do in this country.

Also, I am tired of the educational system lying to us. I was never told in school that Bush's old granddaddy, Prescott Bush, was Hitler's banker--the more things change the more they stay the same. I was brainwashed about "the good war" and then, during Vietnam, we were told to make reports in civics class--if you didn't toe the line and say we were stopping the Commies in Asia, you would get a big fat F. So, please...I'm just sick of glorifying war when the bankers and corporations got rich off of it, and all the poor old farm boys like my dad did the fighting. (But we have to give George, Sr. credit for being a fighter pilot, don't we?) At least he was not a chickenhawk like Cheney and dubya.

Quit glorifying war!!! I say again. Instead, get the truth out. Buy a kid Howard Zinn's "Peoples History of the United STates." Do something for truth. Educate someone about Operation Paper Clip--bringing the Nazi scientists here to continue their "work" even if it be psy-ops. Fuck Ken Burns and Saving Private Ryan, too! If the economic systems of the world hadn't been fuck-ups making the rich richer and starving the German people, Hitler would not have had a snowball's chance in hell of coming to power. If people are starving, they will fight. The German people were starving and Hitler seemed to give them a way out. I am so tired of all that smug bullshit we were taught in school about how the Germans are a "warlike people" and we are different, because we are the good guys and we wouldn't do stuff like the Nazis did. Well, Bush and Company have sure blown that theory out of the water, hasn't they? The only good thing about Bush is that he has forced this country to take a look at its smugness, if nothing else. I never ever want to hear anyone ask again how the "good Germans" could have allowed such a thing to happen. I suppose the answer is, the same way the "good Americans" are allowing what is going on in Iraq.

We need some Truth in History like we need a real investigation into 9-11. We need to know what happened to bring about WWII so that we can work to prevent it--but, of course, we know, don't we? IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY. It is always about the bankers and the Bushes and the Haliburton's and the Black Waters and the fighting over resources that one side has and the other one wants--lusting after things that are not ours.

Galen September 29th, 2007 2:22 pm [KEM: Sorry]

"The US gov't knew Pearl Harbour was coming. They had broken the Japanese 'Purple' code months before, and had been listening in as it were for the entire planning phase. Pearl Harbour was ALLOWED to happen, as the US gov't needed an excuse to expand it's presence in the Pacific and retake the Phillipine Islands....."

CORRECT.....CORRECT.....CORRECT.....
_____________________________________________

This Article describing Bu$hCo's destruction of America's Character for all the aforesaid reasons is another reason for IMPEACHMENT ON THE TABLE....

RICH M. You are incorrect, You gave us your ("NEWS FLASH" ___ Russia WON The War.) Russia did NOT win WW11 nor did they do MOST of the fighting, __ you are full of it on that score.

The war in Europe was not just Russia fightng a land war against Germany. The 25 million dead in Russia was the direct result of Joseph Stalin___ signing a non-agression pact with Hitler ___ and planning to take the spoils of war. Beware signing a pact with the devil.

I do take unbridge with ANY who state Russia WON the war and then some may give death figures to prove a ridiculous point. Most of those dead in Russia were civilian casulties and the 'total fault' of Stalin, they were not all deaths of solders, sailors and airmen, fighting the Italian and German military forces. ___ Ours were.

Had we not entered the war, the best estimates by those who spend their lives studying such, firmly believe Germany would have won the war in Europe and very well may have had atomic weapons at the same time, or before we did. Do you think or believe they may have just tested them?

Your assertions that the Marshall plan wasd only for our benefit is wrong also. The Marshall plan was designed to do exactly what it did do, help to bring Germany back to where it should have been, had Hitler not squandered their econony on war materials, and to help France back where they ended up, a world power who could contribute to the good of all of humanity. That was the plan, it didn't all go according to plan of course, once the politicians and crooks got into it.

holymoly

There may also be something in human nature that relishes war and glorifies it. A film about the Marshall Plan sounds boring to many but a film showing fighting in a war is viewed as exciting. (but I can envision a film about the people living during the Marshall Plan that could be quite interesting...with many human interest stories possible)

Anyway imo it is the many young men who love violence that can also be a part of the problem with humanity choosing war to settle disputes to gain power and money. They want the excitement of war.

I'd rather return to the 1450s and insure Columbus didn't make a second voyage.

"Most of those dead in Russia were civilian casulties and the 'total fault' of Stalin, they were not all deaths of solders, sailors and airmen, fighting the Italian and German military forces. ___ Ours were"

So I suppose by this logic we are not to blame for the 1 million Iraqi deaths in the last 4 years. They are civilians and dont count. We should however really be outraged by the 3000 marines who died fighting a horrible dictator. Wow !! There is no cure for American logic.

And bringing Germany and France back to power is supposed to save 'humanity' !!! I have a headache ...

I'm trying to figure out why people celebrate and glorify war in this country. Is it because greedy old men get richer and young men feel powerful killing defenseless civilians? Or maybe because the weapon$ manufacturer$ of the world's strongest military don't want their products to gather dust in storage? Gotta keep those bombs moving, eh? Would people in the U.S. be so gung-ho for war if the country wasn't the world's superpower? To me, all reasons are just plain evil. Just curious....

Galen, thank you for your informative posts. I watched the youtube video. It makes a person wonder why the soldiers are so very ecstatic that they killed people who have never harmed them -- in a country that was and is no threat to the U.S. They must be sociopaths.

The Soviet Union DID bear the brunt of the fighting with the Wermacht during World War II, killing almost 3/4 of all the German soldiers killed during World War II. Of course, like most statements, this isn't really the whole story.

For instance, the Soviet Union was Germany's chief Ally during the first 2 years of the war, urging the Fuhrer to "destroy the decadent Western Democracies" (Molotov 1940).The last day of peace, June 20, 1941 saw over 400 trainloads of material sent to support Nazi Germany's war effort. In addition, in the two years before the Germans attacked, The Soviet seized half of
Poland, 1/6 of Finland, 1/3 of Romania, and 100% of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.

other forgotten facts:

- The soviets knew about the planned Japanese attack against the United States and Britain before it happened due to their spy network in Japan.

- The Soviets killed FOUR TIMES more German civilians in the first 6 months of 1945 (two million) than were killed in five years of bombardment by the Americans and British (500,000).

- The Soviets murdered virtually the entire Polish officer corps at Katyn forest in 1940.

- The Soviets were "put on wheels" by the shipments (at great cost) by the United States and Britain.

The Soviet Union Did fight heroically during World War II. They did so, however, only after being attacked by their chief ally- Nazi Germany.

To RuthK (9/29 3:07p)

Thanks for sharing your memories, and correctly noting that Mr. Bush doesn't serve us well if he tries to solicit support for one war by comparing it to another, when they're quite different from each other.

WWII, as bad as it was, at least had an end because it was fought against regimes that could fall and be replaced. The idea of a war on "terror" is a concept that can be constantly redefined, and other than staying on to police every location that has Muslims who are mad at Western culture, it is very hard to know where any end might be found.

Same people,selling the same shit.

Role of the Russians
Would anyone agree that the war was "won" if by anyone, by the russian tanks on the field of kursk
much of the "shared sacrifice " was propaganda, eg the drives to get ordinary citizens to collect scrap metal were just a propaganda stunt to get the citizenry involved
don't forget, many people were, until pearl harbor, isolationists
And above all, just we have abandoned the people of darfur, and Kennedy abandonded the Biafrans,FDR did precious little to help the jews.

I did't say that GYPTIAN, I was replying to the remarks of another blogger. I don't believe ANY deaths of non-combatents due to any war are justified, not one. So please don't assume.

I also didn't write that helping to bring France and Germany back from destrction would insure they would "save" humanity. I wrote they could contribute to the good of all humanity, (which is what I would have desired and believe General Marshall wanted to see that also. Do you suffer from a reading comprehension disability because of headaches?