Is Spineless Better Than Evil?
This guy's sign at last week's peace rally on the St. Paul Capitol steps really connected with a lot of people. But is the answer that clear?
Considering the slick double-talking of Minnesota Politician Norm Coleman, for example, whom we were able to recently capture on videotape (posted here), artfully dodging and deflecting our questions about why he won't vote to end the occupation of Iraq, how can we even distinguish between what's evil and what's just spineless? Coleman says his is not double-talk, it's "middle ground" and certainly many "fair and balanced" (and lazy) reporters willingly print what he tells them.
But Coleman happens to be one of only a handful of neocon-leaning Senators who co-sponsored the Kyl-Lieberman amendment which passed (once its worst language was removed) and could pave the way for Bush to launch a massive bombing attack on Iran. You know, the bombing that neocon Norman Podhoretz "hopes and prays for"and secretly urged Bush and Rove to begin not long ago. The letter Coleman currently sends out containing his views of "U.S. policy on Iran" is so full of double-talk, that it's hard to figure out what he's saying, but it's probably significant when he inserts "the President may take necessary actions to defend American Security, but Congress must authorize these actions within 60 to 90 days, or the forces must be withdrawn." Certainly 60 to 90 days is enough time for another promised cakewalk to turn into a new quagmire. Then Congress will get involved? Haven't they learned that starting wars is a lot easier than ending them? Or do they really not care at all about this country's national security?
Hardly on "middle ground", Coleman supported the amendment BEFORE the bill's backers were forced to take out its most incendiary language, including a provision "to support the prudent and calibrated use of all instruments of United States national power ... including diplomatic, economic, intelligence, and military instruments". Sen. Dodd, on the other hand, correctly pointed out that it takes little to "give this President a green light to act recklessly and endanger US national security. We learned in the run up to the Iraq war that seemingly nonbinding language passed by this Senate can have profound consequences. We need the president to use robust diplomacy to address concerns with Iran, not the language in this amendment that the president can point to if he decides to draw this country into another disastrous war of choice. We shouldn't repeat our mistakes and enable this President again."
As an aside, the only consolation in the terrible 76-22 vote on Kyl-Lieberman's bill which helps pave the way for Bush-Cheney's plan to bomb Iran was Minnesota Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar's "NO" vote along with 19 other Democrats and Republican Senators Hagel and Lugar. A number of us had been writing and calling her to "stand tall" and resist all the pressures, fear-mongering and special interest groups; but instead, to vote her conscience and do what's right by the Minnesotans who elected her. The small group of 22 Senators "standing tall" yesterday, not giving their go-ahead to "War President" Bush's third war, could not help but bring a lump in my throat as it rekindled memories of the late Paul Wellstone's brave vote in October, 2002. Wellstone was the only Democratic incumbent facing a re-election challenge who voted "no" to the Iraq War along with 22 other Senators. The late Minnesota Senator apparently even defied recommendations from his own staff who wanted him to do the easier thing politically and just go along with the vote authorizing war on Iraq. Wellstone was threatened with loss of his re-election only a few weeks away--to none other than slick politician Norm Coleman. So how tough was Wellstone's decision to vote his conscience under those circumstances?! (And if I may digress on a personal note, seeing Wellstone vote against authorizing a war that I knew to be totally unjustified and based on lies was the epiphany moment that changed me from having reflexively voted for Republicans most of my entire life.)
So the 22 bipartisan votes evidencing spine are proof, on a couple of levels, that this guy's sign is not entirely correct. But polls do show public approval of Congress is down to 11% and there is that common perception of the Democratic majority in Congress being spineless.
Which brings us to the question: IS spineless better than evil? I hate to keep lecturing about this but as an ethics-teacher, and this hopefully being a teachable moment, . . .
Spineless IS better than evil. But spinelessness is characterized by silence and silence is complicity. Inaction is also complicity. The Kitty Genovese stabbing incident exposes how and why bystander apathy works. It is not true apathy but only (temporary) denial of an ugly, unpleasant truth (that a woman's screams could possibly mean someone is being stabbed right below one's window, in one's own alley) and (temporary) confusion as to what to do about it. People are unprepared for such relatively unusual (and horrible) events. And this accounts for both their lack of initial vigilance as well as their inability to react quickly. So in the Kitty Genovese case, thirty eight otherwise good people ignored the sounds of a woman being stabbed but it wasn't because they didn't care. It was primarily because they hadn't practiced for such an event. They hadn't previously carefully considered what to do in such a situation.
Perhaps the most profound lesson of the last century's most horrible event, the Holocaust was: "Thou shalt not be a victim. Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander." The man judged to be smartest of the last century, Albert Einstein, similarly said, "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." These quotes certainly don't mean that any one bystander is worse than any particular perpetrator or evil doer. What they mean is that the perpetrators are few in number while the bystanders are many and could easily stop the perpetrators if they only tried. Unfortunately this sad lesson of history seems to be repeating and, Holocaust museum sign nothwithstanding, few remember it.
I know one thing. If Paul Wellstone were alive, he would have been proud of Senator Klobuchar and the other 21 Senators who are not in denial about the potential disastrous consequences to giving another green light to this "war president." I bet Wellstone would also be calling for all bystanders to immediately report for duty to stop the Bush-Cheney-Lieberman and other neocon war hawks from launching their third war in six years.
Coleen Rowley is a former FBI agent who now speaks publicly to various groups, ranging from school children to business/professional/civic groups, on two different topics: ethical decision-making and "balancing civil liberties with the need for effective investigation." She is an occasional blogger for Huffington Post.
© 2007 Huffington Post
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118 Comments so far
Show AllAs long as we accept the false choice of corporate-approved candidates and parties, we'll get tweedle dee tweedle dum. Is spineless better than evil? In an abstract sense, yes, but in a practical sense, they work together and have a symbiotic relationship. They both are illustrative of the fact that corporate conglomerates are the true ruling powers. The spineless/evil pols dance around as though they were principled individuals, when in reality they are little more than sock puppets representing the media-military-industrial-complex.
The whole system must be overturned. A revolution will come. That, or let us all lie down in darkness and die like a nation of spineless cogs. Let us strive to make it a nonviolent one. This corrupt and rotten political system has gone way too far into evil to be susceptible to being reformed adequately.
VAGreen,
Thanks. And you're right about me. I am indeed a well-intentioned voter, and indeed we are stuck in a system that offers mostly lesser-of-evil choices.
Obama talks much about voting our hopes, and if he could actually get elected, I think he would talk more about them not only to us Americans but to the world.
'Twould be a nice thing to hear, even if only marginally likely.
Daniel,
Thank you for your comments. I think that you're a well-intentioned voter stuck in a bad system, not a plant for the DNC.
I can understand the appeal of voting for the lesser evil in 2008. My concern is that lesser evil voting gives us worse and worse choices in the long run.
If we adopted instant runoff voting and proportional representation, we could eliminate this problem and all feel free to vote for our hopes rather than our fears.
Lobo Gris
Yes, I checked it again, and Iran's missles don't have a 7500-mile range. I converted kilometers to miles wrongly.
The Iranians did say this earlier this month:
Iran threatens missile attacks on US targets
This means America's allies in Europe, in addition to all the other consequences you mention. Seymour Hersh believes that Bush/Cheney are moving right along on their plans for attacking Iran in a series of In/Out bombing forays.
My favorite bumper sticker of the last few election cycles:
"VOTE FOR SATAN! Why choose the LESSER of two evils?"
My favorite bumper sticker of the last few election cycles:
"SATAN FOR PRESIDENT! Why choose the LESSER of two evils?"
Cause if the "us of a" attacks Iran, lets just be honest about it upfront -- this attack is about gaining control of resources particularly the oil. The whole Iranian "nuclear threat" talk is obviously of no substance whatsoever, and for that matter, same goes with all the "terrorism-fear-creating-mumbo-jumbo" talk. All the talk/spin is just a smokescreen.
So anyhow, if you agree with this -- that it is about the resources -- then what it says is: It is OK to steal. It is OK to murder. Thats 2 of the 10 right off the bat, and i betcha the other 8 won't do that well either. Does this make sense?
So if it is OK for the country of the us to do this, then it might as well be OK for any entity to do this. Why not? Why does one country get to do it and the others don't especially if that one country is just going to bully one after another? For that matter, why does it even need to be countries that we are talking about. Lets just have a "freeforall".
Anyhow, i'll stop this rant for now, but i know in my heart if the "us of a" attacks Iran that changes everything as far as my plan is concerned.
Oh how i pray for Peace.
Peace,
Ken Hausle
anney October 1st, 2007 9:21 am
Speaking about the lesser of two evils scenario
"I think it probably will work, since the average voter who doesn't watch anything but the MSM will probably vote Democratic because of their desire to see the troops brought home from Iraq. As others have said, who else are they going to vote for?"
Mabe it's just wishful thinking on my part but when I see an 11% approval rating for Congress and a poll that shows that barely half of all voters think the current politicians can handle either domestic or international issues it gives me hope that others are waking up.
As for Iran we can't attack them with troops, we don't have any left. We can barely maintain what is in Iraq right now. Not to mention the fact that Iran is a much larger country than Iraq and has a much larger population. If Bush does foolishly attack Iran it will have to be with air strikes only.
As far as I know, and I keep up with military matters, Iran has no capability to attack the U.S. directly on the North American continent. They do have the capability to attack us in Iraq and Afghanistan. They also have the capability to close the straits of Hormuz which they sit astride. 20% of the world's oil passes through that strait and closing it would likely cause major disruptions in the world economy. We might very well see gasoline go up to 5 to 10 dollars a gallon and the price of all goods would go up since just about everything in the U.S. is shipped by truck and when fuel prices go up their costs due also which are passed on to the consumer. Bush could delay it some by dipping into the strategic petroleum reserve to ameliorate prices but whether he could do that for a long enough time to reopen the strait with a hostile Iran sitting astride it is open to question, to me at least.
Lobo Gris
For me (and i think for many others), we are starting to doubt this whole "of america" myth. If the us attacks Iran in any way, don't you think that will basically be the "nail in the coffin".
Didn't Jefferson say something about Revolution being "healthy" to cleanse the spirit. Something like that. Anyhow, Revolutions always start off small, but then they can rapidly (in the blink of an eye so to speak) and exponentially spread.
I don't think the US is going to attack Iran. If we do, it just shows how low we have gone.
Ken Hausle
Charlotte, NC
Lobo Gris
They seem to think that they will get the White House and Congress in 08 by default along with a little nudging of the "we are less evil than the other guys" ploy. I don't think it's going to work this time.
I think it probably will work, since the average voter who doesn't watch anything but the MSM will probably vote Democratic because of their desire to see the troops brought home from Iraq. As others have said, who else are they going to vote for?
By November 2008, I believe Bush will have been authorized to attack Iran with bipartisan support and probably will have already done it, and the Democrats will say they now have to send in reconstruction forces to rebuild Iran, all those mercenaries making billions from US wars. Maybe put in permanent bases and a huge US embassy there, too.
What really worries me -- from all accounts Iran has the capability of a long-range attack on the US to retaliate against an illegal strike against them, quite unlike Iraq. Check out Iran's weapons capabilities -- there's a lot online about them. For sure, the US troops in Iraq will be sitting ducks and suffer terrible casualties since they're in easy striking distance of Iran. As we all know, Iran's right next door. The "bipartisan" legislature may be biting off more than Americans can chew.
The Democratic collusion in Bush's ongoing war plans and profits literally makes me sick.
anney September 30th, 2007 9:54 am
"Something's really WRONG with the Democrats and Republicans, and no amount of "soothing" by the Democrats is going to move me. Just actions."
I most certainly agree, I feel the same way and that seems to be what they just don't get. They seem to think that they will get the White House and Congress in 08 by default along with a little nudging of the "we are less evil than the other guys" ploy. I don't think it's going to work this time. They are going to have to take some real action if they want enough votes to win.
Lobo Gris
1. I agree that the Dems haven't done all they can. And it is true they can't break a filibuster. We need to elect enough, probably 9 and 10 for sure next election. And for sure a Dem Prez no matter who. The Supreme court is on the verge and one more conservative on it can undo everything that is still intact. And that will last for another 20 years. I don't contend this is more important than lives being lost isn't the most pressing issue, but it is important to realize that one more wingnut judge and they will overturn not just Roe v. Wade, but Social security, medicare, most large social programs. Remember Social Security only survived by a 5 to 4 vote in the 30s despite a court that at that time was liberal. Think of the damage that could be done, millions of seniors in poverty, no healthcare for them. Medicaid, Schip. If you don't think that the right wingers won't push for all of this as they become more and more emboldened, you are wrong. If you listen to right wing talk, their overall objective is to totally overturn the new deal of FDR, the new society of the 60s and 70s of the war on poverty, medicare, etc.
The electorate in the last 7 years has made the Dems extremely gun shy and the constant lies from prez and repugnets do echo across the land and it is unfortunate that this still resonates in the red states. I live in Georgia and hear the wingnuts exicited that this can occur in our lifetime; Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia are licking their chops for just one more wingnut Supreme court judge and we can begin. Justice Breyer, liberal is 87, Ginsberg, Stevens, and Souter in their 70s DANGER! DANGER! DANGER! Roberts, Alito, Scalia, Thomas, just licking their chops for one more wingnut
We must support the Dems and nurse them along no matter what!!! Don't vote for any 3rd party candidates, don't sign any petitions to get other candidates on the ballot in any state. THIS COMING ELECTION IS THAT IMPORTANT.
REMEMBER DIVIDE US AND THEY WIN!!!!!!.
VAGreen,
Thanks for a touch of balance. Methinks too that some arguments here are so vehement, even off the wall, that some closet conservatives are getting jollies out of tagging a little grafitti on a progressive place.
As for me being "sent out" by Democrats, not so. I don't even like Democrats all that well. I just know that the alternative is Republicans and I'm very weary of what they have done to our country (since 1981.)
Daniel David
ira shanel September 30th, 2007 11:51 am
"The Democrats are not monolithic, the Republicans are the Borg and will follow their leader even if it means renouncing their values. How can you call Kerry, Murtha, Murphy, Webb or Sestak spineless when they all fought bravely for their country? You all sound like Repugs, baselessly smearing fine people just because you happen not to agree with them."
While the Democrats are busy being ideologically diverse, the Republicans are busy kicking our butts. I'll bet Bush is very happy to have enough Democratic votes in the House and senate consistently to make his agenda look bipartisan.
"If you haven't noticed, Bush started the war, he's the commander in chief, every death is on his head."
The Democrats who gave him the authority to attack Iraq are responsible as well.
"Is Robert Byrd spineless? He railed against the war from square one, as have most of the democrats."
To his credit, Byrd oppposed the war from the start. Unfortunately, many Democrats supported the war and limited their criticism to how Bush was fighting it.
"Methinks Anney is a Republican plant sent to stir up discontent."
Progressive discontent with the Democrats is hardly an invention of the Republicans. More Republicans approve of this Congress than Democrats. It's time to break with the failed two-party system. Go Green.
"How can you call Kerry, Murtha, Murphy, Webb or Sestak spineless when they all fought bravely for their country?"
Have they had the courage to join the Peace Movement? It is very easy to do justice; it is very difficult to do right.
Now is the time to end the American involvement in the genocide in Iraq.
Now is the time to end the "War on Terror"
Now is the time to exercise the Bill of Rights.
Now is the time for Universal Healthcare that's free for everyone.
Now is the time to get back the rights and property stolen from the American public.
How bad does it have to be before US citizens are willing to really act? Myanmar bad? Since we won't be inconvenienced, nor will we be put out of our SUVs or mega mcMansions. Our government instructs us to support the "war on terrorism" by "going shopping." I say we support our troops and wake up the powers that be by putting our wallets and credit cards away for a week, or a day, and let our "leaders" hear the power of the purse strings. Be patriotic, observe "Not one Dime" day on Friday, 11/23/07.
Mistake. Bush doesn't have plans to invade Iran but attack it from the air and sea.
Ira,
What did Pelosi do to anger you?
Pelosi took impeachment off the table from the get-go. THAT's why she's at the top of the list.
Furthermore, the Democrats were elected a majority in 2006 because they promised to fight the Bush administration's agenda. You want to know why so many people are angry at the Democrats? Why haven't you been listening? The Democrats have betrayed their base by giving Bush everything important that he wants.
The principle is the same as a mother beating up a kid and the father says, "Wait! I'll get this stopped." But then the father goes in and joins the mother. Exactly the same principle. You KNEW the mother was a bully because the mother never pretended to be otherwise. You didn't know the father was a bully, too. It's worse because he'd been bullied too, but said he'd stop it.
FWIW, I have a list of Democrats that I like, too. During my life, I've worked with Democrats on several issues, doing research and helping craft state statutes to be presented. Some at the national level that I've even met.
It's just sad to hear such anger directed at them when Bush is so much more deserving.
It's even sadder that Democrats have voted for the Bush agenda. They were the only hope America had for stopping Bush. They were the body elected to stop the crimes, and they not only just stood by, they joined in.
Believe me, I'm not the only Democrat who's left the party because of the way the Democrats have voted during the last two years. Thousands of newspapers and TV articles/reports have discussed the phenomenon of Democratic "spinelessness", some sympathetic, some not. I don't think the Democrats are spineless at all though. Nobody held a gun to their heads. They voted the way they wanted to vote. And the party bears the blame for that. If they'd stopped Bush, they would have gotten the credit for that, too, even without being monolithic. You'd be overwhelmed with votes for the Democrats in 2008, a landslide, a mandate, a final end to the Republican grip on government.
And about this that you said earlier:
...there's no unanimity of opinion on war funding...
But there's unanimity among the Democratic base and probably an even larger group that the Iraq war has to end, and no attack on Iran. A firm date for an end to the Iraq war is all that's needed. There will be chaos no matter when the US withdraws. The funding for a withdrawal plan can be hammered out after the date is set. Instead, we have no end to Iraq in sight, additional funding for Iraq, and now the Democrats have joined the Republican sentiment to focus on Iran as Bush's illegal invasion plans of that country continue to unfold.
It's close to unbearable for me to watch the Democrats cooperate with the Bush agenda. They don't represent what's strong or has integrity anymore. They act as if they don't know Bush isn't to be trusted. They act as if they don't know that he won't "cooperate" with anybody. That's just stupid in my book.
What did Pelosi do to anger you? I suspect that it doesn't hold a candle to the sins of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzalas, Rice, Pace, and the Republicans. I like Nancy, she's a grandmother, a stateswoman, thoughtful; I can't put her in the same league as Bush. The President has committed so many atrocities that I have no anger left for my party. I like so many dems, Murtha, Kerry, Sestak, Webb, Murphy, and especially Henry Waxman. Bush has made us so cynical we eat our young out of suspicion. I trust the democrats, so I'm willing to let them err occasionally. It's just sad to hear such anger directed at them when Bush is so much more deserving.
ira shanel
Well, think again. I've been a Democrat all my voting life, and I'm 67 now. Until now. The treachery is committed by those Democrats who support the Bush agenda, not those Democrats who don't. And Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leader, is at the top of the list.
You don't seem to realize how urgent it is to stop the Bush machinery RIGHT NOW. He's planning to attack Iran now with Democratic blessings, another illegal war. He's trashed the Constitution. I really don't understand why progressives aren't raising hell and making havoc. Just sit back and let everything happen, huh?
Well, NOT ME!
It's just that not every Democrat thinks like you, and there's no unanimity of opinion on war funding, and with the thin majority they have any divergence of opinion makes them not able to stop the war. The men I mentioned aren't chicken hawks like Bush and Cheney, they are brave men who only have America's best interest at heart. Have not Kerry and Murtha spoken eloquently and often on the futility of the war? Have they not dedicated their lives to making ours better. Being a senator or representative is not easy, and their sacrifice is rewarded with constant criticism. Why has it been reduced to "you wont do what I think you should so it's better you loose?" First they're called traitors by the Republicans and then cowards by the left. That dog had already swallowed so many chickens by 2006 the Democrats were lucky to save an egg. It's total hyperbole to say the Democrats will give Bush everything he wants. Just because you're frustrated that the ship of state takes a long time to turn is no reason to blast your own allies. Methinks Anney is a Republican plant sent to stir up discontent.
The Democrats are not monolithic
Why not? A majority monolith was exactly what was needed.
How can you call Kerry, Murtha, Murphy, Webb or Sestak spineless when they all fought bravely for their country?
What does their service in the war have to do with the way they vote now? Why did the Democrats defeat the best in their midst who were speaking up and standing out against the Bush crimes from the beginning? They left the brave ones standing alone. They're still doing it.
Why do the Democrats think they deserve anybody's vote when they vote Republican? There's a reason Congress gets an 11% rating among Americans, which is lower than it was before the 2006 elections. It's because the Democrats have failed utterly at honoring the covenant they made with their base.
It's the Democrats who are whining now, promising in the face of outrage against them that if they just get a larger majority in 2008, then everything will be set right then. In the meantime, it's okay if they go along, since they aren't monolithic of course, so they'll vote with the Republican minority to give Bush a majority vote on everything he wants, illegal wars, attacks, invasions, perpetual war, the Constitution in a shambles, the whole evil plan.
The Democrats let the dog in the henhouse.
The Democrats are not monolithic, the Republicans are the Borg and will follow their leader even if it means renouncing their values. How can you call Kerry, Murtha, Murphy, Webb or Sestak spineless when they all fought bravely for their country? You all sound like Repugs, baselessly smearing fine people just because you happen not to agree with them. If you haven't noticed, Bush started the war, he's the commander in chief, every death is on his head. Is Robert Byrd spineless? He railed against the war from square one, as have most of the democrats. Why don't one of you whiners run for office if you think it's so easy? Hillary will make a GREAT president, and Bill the best 1st man in history! Your pointless complaining is like people at work grousing about how stupid management is while happily accepting a paycheck from the jerks. These are politicians and you act amazed when they are political. Yeah, vote Green and put Giuliani in office and keep going backwards.
Lobo Gris
Daniel David's excuses for the Democrats are far too late. The Democrats should have been listening even before the 2006 elections, but the results went to their heads with devastating consequences. You're right. The only way the Democrats can regain their base before the 2008 elections is to stop the Bush agenda. I don't have much hope for that.
What the Democrats did that was so treacherous was decide to go along with the Bush program if they believed they couldn't win by opposing it and claim, like Bush, they need more soldiers to win the war, when the troops already there aren't even fighting but are colluding.
The Democrats never promised the voters they'd vote against the Bush agenda only if they could win. They were elected to fight that agenda, win or lose.
I really was excited about the 2006 Democratic win until Nancy Pelosi announced that impeachment was off the table. That left me stunned. But then I thought the Democrats must have some other kind of plan to grab hold of the White House agenda, block the crimes and turn the country in a saner direction, winning when they could and vociferously announcing their opposition again and again if they lost on individual bills that were important.
Then I was vastly relieved to recall that Nancy Pelosi could just not send any of the criminal bills to the floor for a vote. That was how to defeat the Bush criminality and I thought THIS must be the plan. And that wasn't the only maneuver available to the Democrats, either.
Stupid me!
The Democratic betrayal of America is no less shocking to me than Bush's betrayal of lies and crimes. In fact, the Democratic betrayal is even more lethal: they'd promised to fight the Bush administration's illegal goals, and that's why they were elected. They didn't fight. Instead, they went along if they didn't think they could win.
They've put themselves in a terrible position by setting precedents. Unlike some others, I can excuse the Democrats who authorized Bush to invade Iraq, simply because I believe that Bush and Cheney lied convincingly to Congress as well as to US citizens. Some have said they wish now they hadn't voted for that authorization but they believed Bush. I don't think many people believed an American president and his administration would deceive us on such a criminal scale, so any doubts at that time were often set aside. But I would have expected ALL those who bought the lies to publically repent and never vote for another Bush item.
But it didn't work out that way. We all know Bush et al are liars and lawbreakers. Congress certainly knows that. They can't claim they were lied to and bought the lies anymore.
America can only conclude that the Democrats support the Bush program because they've supported it.
It's taken me a long time to reach this point, though I've become more and more concerned as time has passed. I was, in fact, writing the Democrats in 2004 warning them at the time that the minority Democrats were looking really bad, that they needed to stand up and be counted, making loud protests, even if they were in the minority. Only Feingold and Kuchinic were publicly stating progressives' outrage about Bush's Iraq lies, FISA, torture, and the mess that existed at the time.
Something's really WRONG with the Democrats and Republicans, and no amount of "soothing" by the Democrats is going to move me. Just actions.
anney September 30th, 2007 8:34 am
The Democrats just don't get it. They need to have and act on policies that will appeal to the voters that they want to represent, rather than sending out people like Daniel David to try to convince us how truly terrible the alternative will be.
Lobo Gris
Daniel David said: Punishing the Democrats with defeat in 2008 just advances the cause of the Republicans and gives Rush Limbaugh a podium from which to boast that he told us so. Mad or not, we're going to have to live with the results, and you're not gonna like 'em.
First, nobody has to advance the cause of the Republicans by voting for them in 2008 -- the Democrats have already done that, and THESE are the results nobody likes. A Democratic election loss in 2008 because the Democrats voted to support the Bush agenda since 2006 would not be a "punishment" but a consequence of their submission to the Bush agenda. Why try to change things again since the 2006 change made no difference anyway?
Second, why on earth are you more concerned about what Rush Limbaugh says than the outrage of Democratic supporters who will not vote for Democrats again? I certainly won't. And am I outraged? Yes, even more than at the Republicans. You see, the Republicans didn't promise to change things if they won in 2006.
Face it, the Democrats have lost a huge portion of their base by supporting Bush's warmongering and vandalism of the Constitution. I wrote letter after letter, begging the Democrats to put impeachment back on the table, stop Bush's illegal warmongering and spying on Americans, and even asked them to consider something quite alarming: that their base was losing faith in them because of the way they were voting. All I ever got were boilerplate "thank you for your concern" responses and continued requests for money. I've no doubt that thousands of other Democrats did the same thing and got the same response.
Just watch after the elections. We'll see if the Democrats win, and if so, whether they right the wrongs that the Bush administration has committed -- get us out of Iraq, keep us out of Iran, repeal the FISA mess, repeal Bush's Executive Orders authorizing torture and faith-based initiatives and Bush's gazillion signing statements. If that happens, I'll gladly say I was wrong.
But I don't believe it for a minute. See, that's what happens when Democrats don't keep their promises with the voters.
alembic two - you don't sound too sweet to me.
I don't know how long you have been around but in previous discussions many solutions have been put forth for various issues political and otherwise. However, if you are looking for "business as usual" type solutions that are easily palatable, then good luck cause you ain't gonna find em.
But i will give you this. Two common themes running through many of my posts are: diminishment of the federal government and implementation of appropriate technology.
Ken Hausle
Charlotte, NC
#
Daniel David September 29th, 2007 9:22 pm
"anney,
Punishing the Democrats with defeat in 2008 just advances the cause of the Republicans and gives Rush Limbaugh a podium from which to boast that he told us so. Mad or not, we're going to have to live with the results, and you're not gonna like 'em."
Mabe the Democrats should do something to merit our support rather than just demanding it because they are the lesser of two evils.
Lobo Gris
Ken Hausle -
Does you gooey, probably drunken, fatuous babble ever, ever end?
Can you never hazzard some specific suggestions as to HOW?
Will you ever risk offering a realistic analysis that's not coated in petrified sugar?
Try.
Sweetly,
alembic two
anney,
Punishing the Democrats with defeat in 2008 just advances the cause of the Republicans and gives Rush Limbaugh a podium from which to boast that he told us so. Mad or not, we're going to have to live with the results, and you're not gonna like 'em.
Now mind you, i so do not mean "pretend we are somewhere else and forget about what has happened". No, what i mean is we need to go back to a place and time of foundation because this country of the US of formerly A (my sentiment) is so so on slippery ice that is melting faster every day. Melting away.
Peace,
Ken Hausle
Yeah and if you want to learn more about the democrats go back to when they started -- Jackson and Van Buren i think it was. "Swept the Nation".
When Jackson got in the "white house" he was supposedly "a man of the People", but this man didn't even know what it meant to be "People". You know, like the People who were here before the Europeans arrived. This speaks to the underlying foundation of the democrats, and i think it is high time they got their due.
Plus Jackson, Houston, and this sick fella named "Clay" as well as some few other fellas and ladies were all mixed up in the mix. It all happened around the 1830's and i think that this is the time we need to revisit, and maybe we can get back to something of hope.....
Peace,
Ken Hausle
Letter Sent to the New York Times
From: John Walsh
Date: September 16, 2007 9:49:05 AM EDT
To: letters@nytimes.com
Subject: Frank Rich's column
To the editor:
In an otherwise excellent column today (9/16/2007) Frank Rich perpetuates the myth that the Democrats do not have the power to end the war because of an inevitable veto from Bush.
Nothing could be farther from the truth. The war demands funding, and a new supplemental funding will soon appear before Congress. That can be filibustered in the Senate, with only the 41 votes or abstentions required to sustain a filibuster. At that moment the legislation is dead. There is nothing to veto so Bush must come back with an acceptable bill. At the same time the Democrats could submit legislation to bring the occupying troops home quickly and safely. Let Bush veto that if he dares. There is already a national petition drive for this at FilibusterForPeace.org and every Senator has received a copy of it.
In the House one person Nancy Pelosi can accomplish the same thing. She can simply refuse to bring Bush's supplemental requests to the floor. In this she has veto power as surely as the president does.
So let us not hear from the Democrats that they do not have the power to end the war. Clearly they do. One must conclude that the Democrats support it. They pay for it and so they own it.
Sincerely,
John V. Walsh, MD
Professor of Physiology
University of Massachusetts Medical School
john.walsh@umassmed.edu
When the Dems lose, every individual loses...
I think that losing would be the absolute best thing that ever happened to the Democrats. Nobody anticipates now that things would be any different with Democrats in 2008 than it has been with Republicans. We already have proof of that. It's time politicians learned to respect the voters and their promises to the voters. And that respect may be born only at the cost of an election.
You must not be aware of the anger of those of us who placed our hopes on the Democrats in 2006 and elected them as a majority in both houses. The hope was not for some cosmetic political reason, but for the survival of our country, the Bill of Rights, the Geneva Conventions, what has made America great.
They didn't even try, as somebody said above.
Lobo Gris (9/29 12:15a) doesn't get it that it's okay for the Dems to lose if they "deserve" to lose. When the Dems lose, every individual loses, even Lobo Gris.
johncpt (9/29 1:44a) may have been the smartest guy in the room.
RE Congress:
We pretend to elect them, and they pretend to represent us.
RE campaign finace reform:
Eliminating money differentials in elections would flip the pancake of democracy, I agree.
But getting the spatula under the pancake, in order to flip it, is the trick.
You'd almost certainly have to amend the US Constitution to structurally resolve 1st Amendment/Free Speech definitions that currently equate spending money with exercizing free speech -- best summarized under US Supreme Court decision Buckley vs Vallejo.
Then, you'd need a statutory process that somehow equalized money's influence among pre-nomination contenders in Primary Elections -- currently open to anyone who simply pays a filing fee. (theoretically doable, but lots of daunting legal and logistical problems, here.)
Then, you'd need a statutory equalization formula for the nominees' campaign spending amounts (somewhat easier to do, maybe.)
But you can't do any of the statutory stuff until the Constitution is first amended to define federal elections as being outside the free speech generalities of the 1st Amendment.
NOTE: Constitutional amendments take a super-majority of both House and Sentate, PLUS 3/4 of state legislatures, to pass.
In order to get the Constitution amended in this way, you'd need a new Congress of super-enlightened, honest people who believe in democracy.
Possibly complicating IRONY: If there were enough honest people in politics to reform the system this way, many citizens would say the huge work of reform isn't (therefore) needed any more.
I agree we should keep trying to limit Money in politics, but doing this in the US is almost as hard as doing the back stroke in a swimming pool filled with MAYONNAISE.
I.e.: Technically possible, but almost requiring Divine Intervention (from a god that allows millions to die in earthquakes, concentration camps, etc....?)
Absolutely nothing will change until we have taxpayer-funded elections instead of corporate election funding. We all know that, don't we? And does anybody believe Congress would vote to end its corporate campaign funding? Citizens should have control of some Congressional doings and benefits, like salaries, expense accounts, pensions, and campaign spending, etc.
Well, I know what I'd do in the best of all possible worlds. No corporate funding at all. No more 527 groups, which have helped and harmed candidates (i.e., Move-On & Swiftboaters). Unfortunately, you can't ban the liars without banning the truth-tellers.
To level the playing field, every candidate for national office would receive a predetermined amount of taxpayer money which may be used for campaigning. Candidates would not be able to use any other money for campaigning, and their expenditures would be published. Criminal charges would be filed against those who violated the limits. The amount of taxpayer money would depend on the number of voters in that candidate's potential district -- House, Senate, or Presidential. The more voters, the more money.
Campaigning would take on a whole new focus -- how to publish the candidates' position on issues and reach as many voters as possible with the amount of money available. Corporations no longer at the financial helm.
Lobbying, I'm torn about, but eventually I think I'd come down on the side of allowing it, since no corporate money would go into the campaign coffers. Constituents need to have access to their representatives, and that would include businesses. I'd also change the meaning of "lobbyist" to include non-corporate groups of citizens with particular concerns, such as pollution or the environment or voting rights, etc.
There are other scenarios for the best way to structure taxpayer funding of elections, but to be honest, I don't think Congress would touch it with a 10-foot pole no matter how it was structured.
alank: Respectfully, I disagree. I love that warm fuzzy feeling that democracy in action gives you. Been there, done that for years! Before congress will listen, you must get thier attention. Get from behind your safe computer, organize, put down those cardboard signs and pick-up something substantial and start the million patriot march. That will get thier attention and protect the Constitution for future generations!
The conversation that ensued was better than Crowley's article. I have nothing to add other than to thank the following for adding such illuminating content to this discussion: ANNEY, DICTENFREUND, JEFFREY COURIORN, PETER C SCHMID, LOBO GRIS, OREGON CHARLES, RICH M, CRUX PUPPY and KEN HAUSLE (in my humble view, this was your best posting to date)!
Spinelessness enables evil.
It is worse than evil because it knows better, but it accepts it. Spinelessness is abdication of responsibility.
IMPEACH
IMPEACH
IMPEACH
Defend the Constitution: IMPEACH
Get behind (or start) and Impeachment movement in your region, and keep working at it. Make so much noise locally that our "representatives" feel that they have more to lose by NOT impeaching.
John Nichols of the Nation says we should keep on trying for impeachment right up until Jan. 20, 2009. It is our one chance to put things right constitutionally, and it is to that document, not to "the flag" that all officals take an oath to defend. It is up to us now to try, even as we work to build alternative politics.
Become so vocal and visible that local citizens get beyond the I-word taboo and have impeachment become a household word, seen and discussed everywhere. Break the chain of fear and helplessness.
1. Get friends and neighbors to see this is a seminal patriotic democracy issue of saving the Constitution and country like in 1776. (So they can justify it to themselves and their peers, and they can identify with old, deep symbols of America)
2. Let them feel that more and more people are "getting it", that this is a growing popular movement to prevent an autocratic police state from taking root in our country. (be part of an awakened and patriotic, but abused majority of determined Americans)
This is the formula for success.
All our actions have to go to building those two scenarios. Even more than directly contacting representatives (which must still be done, and incessantly), we have to work on creating an overwhelming public tide of civic, street, and internet fervor that breaks the media barrier, which THEN makes all those earlier (and continuing) appeals to representatives take on new urgent vigor when they see on which side their bread is buttered.
Suddenly all those old messages (which they have ignored, but kept) become their justification for action. It just takes one special moment, one dynamic public speech or act by a respected figure, which justifies the urgency of Impeachment for saving America, and they will go for it.
We do this with public displays, introducing impeachment resolutions at the city, county and state level (wherevwer we can find at least a few supporters on the inside), and constant badgering of our Federal elected officials. Force any and all candidates to make statements on defending our Constitution by impeachment.
THAT, to me, is the Game Plan.
Organize people. Your Constitution, the very foundation of America is under attack. Get from behind your computers. Trade in those card board signs for something more substantial and start the million patriot march. Its time folks, protect whats yours. America!
"Spineless IS better than evil. But spinelessness is characterized by silence and silence is complicity. Inaction is also complicity. The Kitty Genovese stabbing incident exposes how and why bystander apathy works. It is not true apathy but only (temporary) denial of an ugly, unpleasant truth (that a woman's screams could possibly mean someone is being stabbed right below one's window, in one's own alley) and (temporary) confusion as to what to do about it. People are unprepared for such relatively unusual (and horrible) events".
I have just started reading Naomi Klien's new book " The Shock Doctrine the Rise of DISASTER CAPITALISM".
This is one of the subject she is writing about. How government use shock situations like 9/11 to implement radical new economic and political programs, while the general public is still in shock and cannot respond.
It is a natural human response to go to denial about a situation that the human mind is not ready to deal with, e.g. 9/11.
That is of course, when the Bush administration seized the opportunity to implement their plans for Iraq, under the guise of fighting terrorism..
I highly recommend Naomi Klein's new book to everyone
Jeffrey Courion September 28th, 2007 12:59 pm - Great post. I have comments on these two bits:
** Humanity is complex — unless we are destined to be programmed in some way to align to a singular order — not that far out a notion. **
My response: I don't think we are "destined to be programmed" (who would be the programmer????), but it seems probable to me that there may be aspects of our genetic (or maybe even some other) code that manifest in times of crisis. Sort of like a built in "species preservation" mechanism, which even as it occurs we remain and perhaps will remain unaware of. Who cares, if it exists, as longs as it works, is what matters -- wouldn't you say?
** ALSO, within the ranks of humanity — are fierce, loving forces who have strong backs and determined visions. They don't crave power or headlines — they are everyday people — leading ordinary lives — and do extraordinary things. This needs to be the focus of the leadership we promote and support among us and from us. **
My response: I wholeheartedly appreciate this sentiment. The thing is in most situations those who have these attributes also have no desire to get involved in the sleazy, slimy, back-room, egocentric politics of today. This suggests to me that the time has come for a complete overhaul of our system of governance so that true leaders can emerge and real progress can be made for humanity.
Given all the ecological and societal crises that we are now in the midst of, is it not obvious that turmoil is only going to increase and "business as usual" will only exacerbate the problems? Thus, it seems to me the question is as follows: As a country, is the United States capable of implementing the revolutionary changes that are now called for or will citizens of the country remain observers of the fall into ever increasing chaos, dissolution, and decay?
As it is, the decay has already gone pretty far, and there will come a time when even if we wanted to implement revolutionary change for the better it will be too late to do it on anything but a local scale. Ironically though, this may be what is best anyhow. Ultimately the complete dismantlment of federal government in a sort of "secession by default" that occurs almost spontaneously in different localities at different times as a method of returning some order that is proper and respectful of life.
Cause lets be honest. What good has the federal government done for any of us lately? I can't think of one thing, and every day i wonder if and when we will awake from this nightmare that doesn't need to continue anymore.
Peace,
Ken Hausle
Charlotte, NC
I think as responsible citizens of the U.S. democracy we need to be realistic/pragmatic about the goals we set. While probably all of us involved in the commondreams message boards would like nothing more than to see Kucinich as president, Nader as vice, Cindy Sheehan as speaker of the house, and so forth. But if we are honest with ourselves at the current state of our body politic this scenario is about as likely as JC himself returning to usher in an era of world peace. So I think we should take what Daniel David is saying seriously, and consider which democrats we CAN strongly support rather than constantly bashing them for spinelessness, etc. Although it is sadly true that our democracy is already largely bought by corporations, it is just not the case that there is not a huge difference between republican and democratic governance. Let us work together for piece-meal change and put the dreams of pie in the sky overnight revolution behind us. I'm not suggesting that we give up our most cherised ideals and aspirations, but just that we be more realistic about the hard work and time needed to reach those goals.
Pacem in Terris.
Wellstone died in a plane crash under mysterious circumstances. Many believe that he and his party were assssinated due to evidence of a strange local electrical disruption and a too rapid deployment of "authorities" at the crash scene. It is a difficult thing growing a spine when you and your family members might be targeted for an "accident". There was also the deadly 2001 anthrax mailing attack that fully incapacitated the Democratic leadership of the Senate for five months, preventing any opposition to the four unconstitutional portions of the PATRIOT Act. Several negative mentions have been made about Kerry when that student was tazed. I saw three different videos of that. All included Kerry saying they were good questions and that he wanted to answer them. Kerry said later that he was unaware of the tazing in the back of the auditorium. Apparently, he was out of earshot and couldn't get a view of what was being done unlike those with video equipment nearby. (I understand that the young man was given an intern investigator job by Greg Palast.) People stand by because they think that the authorities (guards) are doing their jobs. How does our society readjust to the fact that many police are being trained to attack citizens who challenge authority, even peacefully? Florida seems to be one of the places where that training has been concentrated using Homeland Security funds no less. Leading up to the 2003 Free Trade Conference, the Bush administration poured millions of dollars into training Miami police for riots. When all they got were peaceful protestors including retired union members, violence was done and people were arrested. It's the mindset. Sort of like the time Secretary of Education Paige had a freudian slip calling members of the National Education Association "terrorists." What do we do when facing the facts is too painful? We deny them.
Correction from previous post.
For more info on the tactic and logic of switching to Green registration as a means to pressure Congress and put them on notice, go to:switch2green.org.
Neomunk -- it makes much more tactical sense to re-register as Green NOW, not later. Switch back temporarily 4-6 weeks ahead of the primary if you so desire, then switch back. Switching now can give Dennis and all progressives a boost, because the growing Green numbers say where you stand on major issues:
1-end this illegal war now
2-impeach both Cheney and Bush
3-Safeguard our Constitution and rights
4-single-payer universal health insurance
5-safeguard women's rights to privacy, choice and equal treatment
6-normalize Labor's right to organize
7-Get big $$ out of Elections and politics in general
How's THAT for definition? Does it describe YOU?
Well, those are all Green official positions! The "spineless Dems" can't even muster up the vertebral fortitude to support ANY of those things you want. So, what the hell are you doing there supporting the DLC-run machine -- to do more damage?
Why not let your REGISTRATIiON describe you as well. THAT way there is no mistaking those who HAVE real defined positions --and THAT helps all progressive candidates to make their case for what the People want. Why not help build a non-corporate politics of sanity and inclusion?
We cannot afford to wait any longer for the Democratic Party to "come around." Oh, they CAN come around, of course. They came around to accepting preemptive war and illegal wiretapping.
Stop the denial already. That nostlgic image of the Democratic Party supporting Labor, Women and Minorities is just a bullet on a sales pamphlet for a new breed of Bait 'n' Switch politics which only ensures corporate control of our whole system -- from news to politics to nutritiion to education to healthcare to warfare.
Sad. Sick, even. But this is how it works: it's a one-two punch.
Neocons lead Republicans to take everything in sight into their control. DLC owned and operated Democrats are in charge of taking all of the outraged and pissed-off people and keeping them busy and politically neutered.
Thik about it. Have you seen one single progressive measure actively promoted by that Party in 40 years? One truly progressive (or antiwar) candidate given party support? Whom do they silence? Michael Moore, Murtha, Feingold, Dean, MoveOn...YOU!
Just knock on doors, make phone calls, send money. THAT is the role of "the base."
This goes WAAAYY beyond "spinelessness" and even beyond "enabling." THIS my friends, like it or not, is COLLUSION of the worst sorts. It has to stop. It is taking America down by offering False Promises instead of Leadership and Resistance in a time when we really ARE under attack -- domestically.
Republicans lead us like lemmings right over the cliff of human and planetary lawless disaster. The Democrats hold hands, sing songs and instead lead our children over the same cliff, just a few years further down the road. Same cliff. WE need someone to say: "Walk Away from the EDGE! Go the other way! The road to recovery is paved with cooperation, love and respect, not hatred and blind certitude -- certainly not hedge funds."
If any of them come to their senses and want to stop the destruction of our Constitution, let THEM join and follow others like the Greens who actually KNOW where they want to be headed.
Attemps at trying to reform that Democratic beast or (chuckle) "hijack" the the Democratic Party have already failed miserably for decades. It is not going to miraculously work now. Enough of that BS. All it does is waste time and run out the clock without accomplishing anything, like setting a new People's Agenda. Accomplishing THAT will fall to a new party that starts fresh with that People's Agenda as its operating principle. That is today's Green Party.
>no chance this will ever change until the revolution which probably won't happen until the next depression and even then i wouldn't count on it
you never know. look at Argentina.
The reality of the two-party system is that it is pure theater..expensive theater, but theater none the less...as long as we continue with privately financed elections the public will not be served...the military-industrial complex finances both the republican and democratic parties and whoever pays the piper calls the tune.....no chance this will ever change until the revolution which probably won't happen until the next depression and even then i wouldn't count on it
Its about love and its about trust. Its about people who fight for you, and people who don't. Trust the person who will stand beside you and fight when you are fighting for you lives. Trust the person who gives you a hand when you are down. Do the same for others. Your heart will guide the way.
Just spent 24 hours in airports and airliners with Naomi Klien's latest book for company. Read it! She presents with remarkable insight and clarity what's been happening over the last 30 to 40 years.
This is why I disagree when I hear the Democrats say 'it was a mistake' when they talk about action like selling off the public media and licenses to the corporations. That was part of what had been built in this country in the 40 years or so after the Great Depression as a bit of partnership between a government its people. It was a firm line between a philosophy of government that believed in a partnership with the people and that a government had to serve the people .... and the current model where all assets that were built are to be sold off to the corporations.
The Democrats were well paid for selling out the Republic and the entire concept of government being a partnership with the people. It most certainly was a mistake. I'd go so far as to call it treachery. But what I'm not buying is the Democrats now coming to me and saying 'oh, it was a mistake', and then asking me to help put them in power. If it was a mistake, then they need to make it right. I don't see them trying. Watch actions not words. Hillary holds big fundraisers with Rupert Murdoch. Nuff Said.
Trust your heart. Trust your instincts as to what's right and what's wrong and who's on your side and who isn't. Watch actions, don't listen to words.
The spineless ones, aka the also evil ones, just voted $9,000,000,000.00 of our money for more war, death, destruction, imprisionment, torture, etc, etc, etc in Iraq.
Words don't count. Actions count. You are either for Bush or against Bush. And when you vote more of our money for more war you aren't with us.
There are only 15 people in both Houses with the convictions and character to vote NO. Don't be fooled, there's only two votes. These are the ones with heart.
In the Senate ... Feingold.
'The "no" votes in the House, all cast by anti-war members, came from one Republican, Ron Paul of Texas, and 13 Democrats: Oregon's Earl Blumenauer, Missouri's William Clay, Minnesota's Keith Ellison, California's Bob Filner, Massachusetts' Barney Frank, New York's Maurice Hinchey, Ohio's Dennis Kucinich, Washington's Jim McDermott, New Jersey's Donald Payne, California's Barbara Lee, Maxine Waters, Diane Watson and Lynn Woolsey.'
--http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=237751
Support these people, but also ask them to help support building a party anda movement to stop this. It ain't gonna be the Republicans or Democrats.
What a bunch of pathetic fools we are. Is spineless better than evil? How can it be if it's a complete illusion. There is no such thing as spineless, once you actually look at what is meant by the term. The more you examine the term the filmier it gets, until you don't have anything left but bullshit. Isn't it interesting that democrats always seem to find a way to destroy their chances to win decisively enough to overcome the dirty-tricks republicans plan for we losers. Notice how certain people on this list are absolutely thrilled that we asked this moronic question about spinelessness, because they know they can make headway against us, and bring us a step closer to defeat in '08, and do it with our own permission. It's useless to make clear any number of things about political reality, such as, that the democratic party leadership, must consist of members that reflect "all" of the views of "all" of the democrats, and not just the views of the most liberal democrats. There are a huge number of conservative democrats in my party, and their views "must" be reflected in their representatives in Congress and the Senate; otherwise the democratic party will be a much smaller party, and be less able to stand up to republican bullying than we are now. But you're too busy making fun of Bill and Hillary, just as your republican masters have brainwashed you into doing; too busy attacking yourselves for not being "progressive" enough, even though a moron will tell you that the dem party is as big as it is, precisely because it has a considerable conservative element, and that element must be represented by demcocratic leaders. So instead of forming a common bond with your conservative brothers in the democratic party, and discussing your disagreements rationally and reasonably, you pretend that conservative democrats don't exist, and listen to the deceitful garbage you hear from media republicans, telling you that democrats have become too liberal a party, and that has meant that we're too polarized, blah, blah, blah. The reality is, that moderate democrats have ceased to get a hearing in our party, and are demonized by the repbublicans in media, as too liberal, and by "us," as spineless. In fact, it's the republicans that have moved so far to the right, that they make the conservatives in our party "look" like liberals, and make the liberals look like rabid communists. Stop buying the garbage you hear on CNN and FOX, and learn to respect "all" the members of your party, and you'll get the kind of country you claim you want, and, stop pissing off any chance of getting it, because you show contempt against, and mock huge elements of your own party. Republicans want nothing more, than to see us destroy ourselves; stop obliging them.
jp
Daniel David September 28th, 2007 4:59 pm
"I hope people with hot tempers can actually produce Democratic votes. If not, it's loserville, again."
If the Democrats want to win they need to win over the most people by representing the people that vote them into office. Instead they choose to represent the lobbyists and special interest groups and then tell the voter through people like you that we have to vote for them anyway because they are not as evil as the other guys. That is always a losing scenario for the voter regardless of which party wins. Fortunately people are waking up to what is being done and I don't think it will work this time.
The bottom line is that if they choose to ignore the people they deserve to be in loserville as you put it.
Lobo Gris
The parsing of the Kitty Genovese analogy strikes me as sophistical. The apathy was the result of not caring and had nothing to do with the novelty of the situation. If you care, you get up, part the curtains, see the crime, call the cops. If you don't care, you ignore the unpleasantness and try to forget it. It is less about spinelessness than about caring.
Why this condition of extreme detachment exsts is another question.
This not-caring is fatal, to Kitty Genovese, and to our Republic. It may be temporary, but it will persist until it's too late to do anything about it but cry over the blood in the streets.
Political spinelessness = not caring about the Republic.
Woody, in a post above calls Al Gore "Al Whore". I voted Nader in 2000, and I was also disappointed in Gore's failure to show great leadership and stand up to Jeb Bush and the Supreme Court, and the media. He proved to be less than a super hero, and this failing allowed a brutal criminal regime to take the levers of power.
What do you do when, as a true believer in the rule of law, the Supreme Court breaks the law?
Al Gore, in retrospect, can see what's going on now if he was at the time overwhelmed and confused and weak-in-the-knees. You have only to read "The Assault on Reason" if you need proof.
This Republic has fallen into the hands of a criminal cabal that has successfully trashed the Constitution and put in place the framework for authoritarian government. Daniel Ellsberg, an American hero, has noted, somewhat belatedly, that a coup has already taken place and the next stage of that coup threatens to be enacted. George Bush is not simply an ethically and intellectually challenged individual incapable of normal human empathy responses, he is an unindicted criminal who has successfully evaded the consequences of his behavior throughout his life. He is the fruit of a rotten family tree.
This is not a time to be arguing about political process and party politics, it is a time to be thinking clearly about the Republic itself. Voters rarely do that. Most are like the blind men feeling the elephant. Elections are often driven by isolated issues, tails, ears, legs, trunks, but not the elephant itself. This is an election that is bigger than the Iraq War or health care.
If you don't have in your own mind a detailed image of that Republic and something of its history, if you don't know your Constitution and cannot explain specifically how this administration has violated the Constitution, if you cannot explain why the action of the Supreme Court in 2000 was a betrayal of its Constitituional role, then your vote has little meaning. You need to read Al Gore's book, "The Assault on Reason". That's a start.
Political realities are starkly defined, but you may not truly realize that. You may think the pendulum is swinging back to the left. You may believe we'll muddle through like we always have. You may be consoling yourself with some comfortable nostrum. You may hear the screaming and carrying on somewhere outside, down in the alley, but it's not Hillary Clinton getting mugged, it's Hillary Clinton and George Bush et al mugging the Republic.
This is actually a single big issue election. That is the Constitution and the rule of law.
Let's reject both of these evil parties. Congress and the senate are just a sham anyway. They don't seem to have any power. There is a secret government that is not elected that is running things. They have total control of practically every media source from movies to radio to TV to public broadcasting. It's worse than Pravda because with Pravda everyone new the whole thing was phony. Our propaganda machine still has a lot of people fooled, thinking they are actually getting the "news".
Yes they are spineless and will be reviled for all of history for people to see.
The Repugs are laughing their heads off watching the Dumocrats operate. Repugs win everything whether they are majority or minority. The Dumbs are like a football team that is scared to kick or throw the ball, and just lay down on it every play so they won`t take a chance of losing any yardage. They even let Lieberman write the bills that the Repugs want passed and then put them through with a big vote YES. Notice that Hagel, a staunch Republican, had the guts to vote NO. If you didn`t see this disgraceful fiasco of a Congress it would be hard to believe it really happened.
Not sure what her point is but here in Minnesota we have had a few good senators Wellstone and McCarthy are two of them. Amy needs to fully prove herself. Coleman sucks period, he was a dem but what is the diff anyway ? About this sign in St Paul why not show the one that said, " Vote for Dennis " or a different one that read " All House Members are up for re-election in 2008 get all new ones. about 30 some senators get new ones, one Pres get one with brains." A friend of mine had that last one. As for spineless vs evil ? we do not have to have one or the other. We can have gutsy and good, but if dem then barely and closer to green or socialist or a people's party. Not a remake of the rich.
Tetti_tatti, You smokin dope man, I had to go to the top and make sure this was the same article after reading your post. Please enlighten me as to what great feat Pelosi and Reid are pulling off? Pelosi has given all the spineless Democrats cover not to get on board with impeachment of at least Cheney so the world sees us a citizenship compliant with our Nation's illegal wars and bullying of other Nations.
Typical lying nonsense from the Huffington Post, another 'spineless Democrats' article. Democrats have a lot of spine. It takes a lot of BALLS to pull what Pelosi and Reid have been pulling. Mainstream blogs like HP sell the false the idea that there's actually a difference between the parties.
Well, there is, at least with Republicans we know where we stand. Democrats have cooperated with Bush for 7 years now. They had at least 40 Senators since 2000, they could have blocked EVERY ONE of Bush's criminal enterprises. Instead they did nothing. And yet, they pretend to be an opposition party. Shame on Democrats and shame on Arianna Huffington for propagating more lies.
COMarc
I agree. As I said, I don't buy this spineless nonsense. There are a lot of things the Democrats could do that wouldn't take a great deal of courage. It is, indeed, a cover-up for the fact that many are voting exactly as they want and using the Republican attacks or the lack of a veto-proof majority as cover.
As for me, the mistakes I wrote of that the Democratic leadership made refers not to Congressional voting, but to such things as the party allowing the right to buy up media outlets to the point where they have a vitual monopoly.
That was a mistake - and it hurts all progressives.
"spineless" per Websters 7th Collegiate: 1. free from spines, thorns, or prickles; 2a. having no spinal column: INVERTEBRATE 2b. lacking strength of character : WEAK.
I'm pretty sure this article's title is using the term "spineless" as defined in "2b". Given that, to re-phrase the title's question with some further definition:
Is it better to be lacking strength of character (to be weak) than evil?
I'd say no. It is not better to be weak than evil --- particularly as we all witness suffering of innocence.
Here is a solution alembic two -- lets stop the war we are in now and lets not start any new ones. Simple huh?
Peace,
Ken Hausle
I like the comments by Oregoncharles, RichM, and Nader2000. My opinion is that corporate Democrats (true progressives excepted) are not spineless. They are courageous. They have the courage to support their true constituents—their rich donors. They are standing up strongly against the progressive and semi-progressive citizens who want the occupation to end and who want more progressive domestic, foreign and electoral policies.
I prefer a two-party strategy: work for progressive growth inside the Democratic Party and strengthen the Green Party. There are over 20 progressive caucuses in State Democratic Parties. There is a Congressional Progressive Caucus. There is a Green Party with over 300,000 members. All are progressive. (The CPC has about one third, say, 20 to 23, true progressives.) I agree with replacing the corporate Democrats with progressive ones. And I like helping the Green Party where we can. In my state we wrote the progressive caucus bylaws so that members could be in either or both parties: Green and Democratic, or be independent. We also did not have an age limit, so HS age people can join.
Let's get going. YOU can make it 21 states that have a progressive caucus in a US state. (Or if you have one already, join it and make it grow.)
I wish people would stop talking about 'bad decisions' of Democrats. Along with their 'spineless' qualities or about how they 'cave' or 'retreat' all the time. That is all just the backup mythology behind the third-way nonsense they used to run with. It still all supposes that they would want something different from the world they've helped to create if they could just have a magic wand or something.
That diverts your vision from realizing that just maybe the Democrats are doing exactly what they want to do and how to do it. Or, I'm sure they'd love to be completely in power and dominate the White House and the Congress. But that doesn't mean your world would be much different, because they just want to put a very slightly center-right spin on the same basic policies that the Republicans push. That's for purely selfish reasons of power hungary politicians more than its to benefit the people in any way.
When a mistakes are made, leaders can be changed, consulting strategists can be replaced. But when a group continuously follows the same policies for 20 or so years, both in and out of the White House and the control of Congress, then you can start to ignore their hollow-sounding claims that they had a 'bad strategy' or 'spineless' leaders. That's just BS to try to make people stick with them for just a little while longer and hopefully not notice that they start illegal wars, commit war crimes, and outsource your jobs over to China just like the other guys.
Republican = Democrat = We get screwed
Republican = Democrat = War
Democrat = Republican = Corporativist Government
Spineless is the necessary accomplice of evil.
Dems, Repugs, mearly the two heads of a single venomous viper, the body of which is stuffed with the stolen treasures of the public wealth and trust. Every dragon has it's soft spot and it's up to us as a people to find it and thrust a poisonous spear into it as deep as we can.
I continually hear that the Democrats can't do one thing or another because they haven't the votes. Well, the Reublicans are just as slender a minority as the Democrats are a majority, and they still manage to run the show.
As has been said:
Force the Republicans to filibuster: let them explain why they are hanging up legislation - and while they're at it, why 'filibuster' is suddenly a respectable word again and whatever happened to the 'nuclear option' threatened when they were in the majority and wanted no trouble from any of the few Democrats who might have wanted to prevent a truly scurrilous bill from being passed.
The Democrats might not have the votes to overcome a veto, but that doesn't mean that they can't pass and submit bills that might be votoed anyway - then just pass them again and again and again, until Bush figures it out - (or somebody explains it to him) - that nothing at all is going to get done until he signs **something**. A even better tactic would be to present 'worse' and 'worse' bills for Bush to sign - getting farther and farther from what he might find tolerable. A few rounds of that, and what might happen?
The Democrats could make a big noise about the **obstructionist Republicans**, as well. Even in today's media, a big enough stink still gets someone's attention. "The obstructionist Republicans are trying to thwart the people's will!" would make a pretty good battle cry. (Someone might even be able to see that it is only the flip side of the old Republican salvo against the Dem minority.)
All the Democrats would have to do is follow what the Republicans did when they were in the minority last time. (Of course, they'll have to scream more loudly, as the media are not very responsive to the Democrats.)
But the bottom line is, just because you can't get a veto-proof majority, that doesn't mean you have to run in the other direction and jump on board the Republican ship. Voting with the Republican minority is simply not excusable in any way or under any circumstances.
Their phony excuses are no more than cover-ups for the fact that these Democrats far too often want to cast the votes they do. I can't believe this 'spineless' nonsense. Go down fighting - it's not as though it would actually cost you your lives, (unlike our troops whom you will not bring home).
Finally, perhaps some in the Democratic 'leadership' will admit that it was a huge error not to buy up media but let them fall into the hands of the Republican Noise Machine, and will agree that it is past time to change course. This Noise Machine did not simply spring up overnight. This is one outcome of decades of truly bad decision-making on their part. Go to http://www.consortiumnews.com for articles on these screw-ups of the Democratic 'leadership.'
All I can say is to quote an old saying, "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing." Said by Edmund Burke.
11 % approval rating - just like the two guys running from the bear, to save your life, you don't have to run faster than the bear, just faster than the other guy.
get it?
proud of Senator Klobuchr?????? Should I laugh or cry? She voted for the FISA law and she voted to condemn the MoveOn ad, while Iraq burns our money, $100 million a day, or is it $700 million a day? This is all beyond me...
RichM writes:
"The real requirements for being elected to Congress include being acceptable to the local power brokers & media in your area. Often you must also be well-regarded by the Democratic national machine. And you need plenty of money — something true progressives often don't have, while successful business people have lots of it. Those "unofficial" requirements mean that in effect, all candidates must be (or appear to be) members in good standing of "The Establishment." There's very little room for dissenters or mavericks; every step of the way, there are various filters designed to weed them out."
That's what you need to get the support of the forces you mentioned. Yes, that's usually how it works in the primary elections, and in the general elections, too. All these reasons that you say prevent progressives from winning the Democratic nomination are the same reasons that prevent them from winning office as Greens, Reds, or anything else.
There is one more big reason why progressives cannot win outside of the Democratic Party: The candidates that do win the major party nominations get lots of support not only from special interests but also from loyal party voters. Many voters will not want to give their votes to candidates they expect to lose, even if they like what those candidates say better than what the major-party candidates say. Third parties lose, lose, lose and lose. You cannot build a party that way and amass enough support to start winning.
However, if you think that grassroots organizing from the Left can become a significant force in American electoral politics, you can use it within the Democratic primary process and begin to have some influence even before you are able to capture elections, and capture Democratic nominations even before you are able to win general elections, and win offices and power long before you would ever be able to do that as a third party, particularly in view of the fact that the latter is something you would never be able to do.
When you start with a false assumption then your entire discourse becomes useless. And the false assumption is that "the democrats are spineless".
But in reality the Dems are doing exactly what their constituents are asking them to do.
Here again, there is an assumption that the working Americans are the constituents of the Dems. But in reality their constituents are: military industrial complex, big money and the Israeli lobby.
Now go back and revisit everything the Dems have done since we invaded Iraq. It will be pretty clear that they are not spineless but very courageous and determined: in spite of overwhelming opposition of American citizens the Dems have continued their course of not ending the war, and not prosecuting this administration for war crimes and shredding of our constitution.
Really, I am not being ironic here. Think through what I have just said, and you'll see it all makes sense. Democrats are bold, determined and steadfast.
frank1569 September 28th, 2007 5:43 pm
"Spineless = passive aggressive evil.
Still evil, just more annoying."
You nailed it, Frank!
Eleanor Roosevelt once said:
"POVERTY IS AN EXPENSIVE LUXURY. WE CANNOT AFFORD IT."
The evil and spinesless are both corrupt and impoverished!
For me, spineless is worse than evil. It is deceptively evil in that they pretend not to endorse evil but in actuality they do. Like a priest who preaches compassion while molesting the children.
The Iran war will be Pelosi's war. What a hopeless Speaker she has turned out to be. I have talked with a member of the SF DCCC and he believes that she still has about 60-70% of the Democrats there on her side.
The Democrats have become accomplices to the Bush regime and we are only seeing the beginning.
If you ever wondered why the Democrats constantly roll over for the Republicans, there's some background here.
It isn't cowardice. It's a death-wish.
Oregoncharles
Bill Clinton did all that, but all anyone remembers is the robust economy at that time.
Money talks.
I am a registered Democrat. I will be voting in my state's primary election next year, and I will be voting for Kucinich.
If Kucinich does not get the Democratic nomination then I will have considered the Democratic party's ideals too far removed from my own and will therefore re-register myself as either Green or independent. I know I am not alone.
There's a message here, and that message is simply whatever political maneuvering the Democrats have relied on to pull 'swing' voters (assuming that was ever even a real consideration, whatwith the fat corporate donations rolling in) has backfired miserably.
Democrats are losing voters over this, and they HAVE to know it by now, right? Are they counting on enough 'swing' or 'I-hate-Republicans-now' votes to make up for the large (and growing in direct proportion to political awareness) chunk of their base they are disenfranchising?
Pretending to fight while holding one hand around your back and using the free hand to slap yourself around (vis-a-vis MoveOn's Betraeus fiasco) isn't a political strategy for success. I promise.
What HAVE the Democrats done to deserve my continuing support? Rised the minimum wage from atrocious to merely ludicrous? Voted twice to make war with Iran easier? (Don't give me any bullshit here, they made Iran an official terrorist sponsor state and BOTH (IIRC) AUMF bills allow Bush to attack a state with such a designation.) What else?
Oh, they can't beat a filibuster. Okay, they have methods of doings so actually (like making the Republicans actually FILIBUSTER instead of just saying 'no, it's fine, we know you'll filibuster so we won't bother') but let's assume that's too hard. Let's talk about the nastiness they keep passing. What possible excuse can you have for the further slide of civil liberties at home? What POSSIBLE universe could it be just fine for Kerry to stand there watching (and joking, the demented bastard) a guy get tased for asking uncomfortable questions nervously?
See, that's why you've lost me and others like me, and will lose many more. I started this post nice and calmly, now I'm pissed. You cannot win elections when your base thinks about what you've done as the majority party and gets pissed about it. If that's some revelation to political science, then we need new political scientists (sic).
Calls for teamwork fall on deaf ears when the team stands only for looking better than the other team. If you're not going to fight (yes, FIGHT, as opposed to the dramatic roll-overs I've been seeing) for my interests then you cannot possibly receive my vote to be my representative (that's a very important word, contemplate it) to our social-contract-forum.
*sigh* The worst part is, the Democratic party apparatus really doesn't care what I think other than an indication of how successful their marketing has been. If any of them read this, they'll just look for holes in my antipathy to exploit in a new ad. AT MOST, they'll try to find a catchphrase that really moves me. It's all marketing now. What happens when the marketing is the product is the marketing?
Vote sanely and you'll get me back. Kucinich is sane, demand your party apparatus give him a real shot. Once people get to hear him over and over the shear simplicity of his common sense politics will win you millions, possibly tens of millions.
Give it a shot, you can't do much worse than you are now. Unless a slide into a unitary executive with top-tier corporate councilors is what you want, and you're just trying to distract me while you make the final preparations. The fact that anyone reasonably sane could not be SURE that that isn't the case speaks volumes in and of itself.
Spineless = passive aggressive evil.
Still evil, just more annoying.
I think RichM may be beginning to "get it" that you still have to win an election -- per most recent post above. Hooray.
'Nader2000' (4:38 pm) writes, "The Democrats in Congress are people who, 1) won a Democratic Primary and 2) won a general election. Anyone can run in a Democratic primary for nomination as a Democratic candidate. Absolutely nothing prevents progressives from organizing to challenge "Blue Dog" and "spineless" Democrats by running or supporting progressives with spine....So stop whining about how spineless or what a mixed bag the current crop of Congressional Democrats are, and start working to REPLACE THEM"
- No, you left out most of the real requirements. (If it were nearly as easy as you make it out to be, isn't it odd that we always wind up with a collection of almost uniformly corporatist/militarist/imperialist Democrats?) The consistency of that outcome alone tells you that your theory bears little resemblance to reality.
The real requirements for being elected to Congress include being acceptable to the local power brokers & media in your area. Often you must also be well-regarded by the Democratic national machine. And you need plenty of money -- something true progressives often don't have, while successful business people have lots of it. Those "unofficial" requirements mean that in effect, all candidates must be (or appear to be) members in good standing of "The Establishment." There's very little room for dissenters or mavericks; every step of the way, there are various filters designed to weed them out.
Any "progressive candidate" who says that military spending should be markedly reduced will immediately be attacked as being "soft on national security." Any candidate who says that big corporations are receiving "corporate welfare" from the federal government, and that this should be stopped -- this person will be attacked for being "anti-business." Anyone saying that he or she opposes illegal US wars will be charged with not supporting the troops. If you say you think Bush & Cheney are war criminals, & should be impeached, you'd likely be condemned by local media (& the national Dem machine) as being "rude, inappropriate, & probably mentally unbalanced." If you criticize the destructive aspects of capitalism itself, they'll just call you a "throwback to the Communist era," & your views will receive no coverage whatsoever.
In other words, all positions that define a real "progressive" are really off-limits. THAT is why there is not more than 18 or so Democrats in Congress supporting Kucinich's articles to impeach Cheney (and so far, none that are trying to impeach Bush). That is why ALL the Dem leaders go along with Bush's wars, condemning MoveOn, & the current build-up to the bombing of Iran (not to mention torture, last month's revoking of the 4th Amendment, stolen elections, Gitmo, habeas corpus, & so on).
Thanks Woody. Good points.
Well, I certainly attracted some vigorous debate from several above who think I'm a buffoon. But I'm not eager to see Giuliani or Thompson appointing the Supreme Court for 8 years while bully-mouthing around and continuing our presence in Iraq/Iran for 5 decades instead of 5 years. Regardless how strongly you feel about this or that, you still have to win the 2008 election in order to have anything. And it's still the older conservative crowd that actually turns out at the polls. And many of them hate Hillary anyway. So I hope people with hot tempers can actually produce
Democratic votes. If not, it's loserville, again.
The sign the man carries is not stupid, but the essence of sublime. I feel your pain, brother.
Daniel David, This is so pathetic I can hardly find the words to answer this. It sounds exactly the same as the 2000 election mantra, We have to vote for "Al Whore" because he is the lesser of two evils. While it is a fact that "The Whore" won the election by over a half million votes, he ran such an abysmal campaign, where it was almost impossible to distinguish between him (Al Whore) and "The Idiot", dubya. In the debates they were climbing over each other they agreed on so many things. In one debate, they agreed with each other 34 times!!!! 34 TIMES!!!!! And of course, one of the greatest americans who has ever lived, Ralph Nader, was crucified as a spoiler, an egomaniac, a criminal, etc. etc. Well everything he said, turned out to be true, EVERYTHING!!!!!!! "There isn't a dime's worth of difference between the two parties". It's really a one party system when you think about it. There are still quite a few, many, many, demopublicans, who still blame Ralph for everything that's going wrong today! Now you talk about DENIAL!!!! This is beyond SICK, it is the most TWISTED excuse for ineptitude, wait I correct myself, it is COMPLICITY. Everything, and I mean everything, that "the idiot", cheney,and these evil, twisted MAD DOG neo-cons have done, was done with the absolute conscience complicity of the demopublicans and no amount of whining and lies will convince me otherwise. Plus, it's out there for everyone to see. It's open source material.
I have been voting my conscience since 1996, and will continue to do so, if I vote at all. It is the only way that any change can happen, outside of complete armed revolution, which has as much chance of happening as bush becoming a rocket scientist. Pretty goddamned slim I'd say. Change from voting has about the same chance. Because if someone like Nader does win, he'd be assasinated
at the swearing in ceremony in all likelihood. In the first month or two anyway. It looks pretty bleak. But as someone wrote a week or so ago, I'm just going to try and be the change I'd like to see. Americans seem to be too busy shopping, worrying about what was in Anna Nicole Smith's refrigerator when she died, obsessed with which one of these cut-throat, back stabbing son of a bitches is going to win survivor, watching movies about a rat that cooks, (a cute rat though!), condemning an ad supposedly belittleing the military, while hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's are dying, our sons, daughters, and cousins are sent off to a war to be killed and maimed, that was started on lies to GET THE OIL from Iraq. There isn't enough money to insure our children, but there's enough money to give the haliburton's, bechtel's, blackwater's, over 500 million a day!!!!!!! This is beyond sick and twisted!!!! Yet, the american people kick back and watch another episode of some
of the most mind numbing, intelligence insulting shit you could ever dream up.
Somebody please help us.