I hear the frogs singing and find it very soothing. Sometimes they're so loud, you can hear nothing else. I spite of some criticism in my earlier posts, I don't think Dan Rather is the problem, but he was some how associated with it. As they say, if you lie with dogs, you're going to get fleas.

All around us we have sentinel species. Sentinel species are the things that are affected first when they are changes. Not to long ago while visiting an office, the receptionist had frogs displayed all over her computer. I told her, "hummm, I like your frogs". She told me, " I like these frogs (stuffed ornaments) not real frogs." I said, "well you know frogs are a sentinel species, they are a living indication of the quality of an environment". Then I asked, "when was the last time you saw a real frog". She couldn't remember seeing a real frog. I thought to myself how sad, she probably has never heard them singing after a good rain.

Dan Rather told the truth in a lot of different ways, sometimes by what he didn't say.

I remember his election coverage in 2000, where he aired a personal glimps of G.W. when he was told that Florida was going to Al Gore (that was latter corrected). What a moment of truth, the look of G.W.'s face.
It was priceless.

Thanks Dan!

Paul Bramscher -

About 90% of people who post on this site use names other than their own. And you want to put a pox on all of them?

Please re-explain why. I don't understand your reasoning, from what you said above -- nor why you directed your comment to me, in particular.

For what it's worth, I think it corrupts this site if people use multiple screen names to post opinions under one name and then praise or argue for their own submissions under a different name. Or to post viscious ad hominem attacks on other posters, under cloak of anonymity.

How much of that actually happpens on this site is anybody's guess -- unless you have inside info.

Beyond these likely misuses of nomes de plume, I think there certainly can be, and are, valid reasons for maintaining one's annonymity, just as there were such reasons for the authors of thousands of samizdat tracts that flooded the USSR underground before the principle of glasnost became something other than a likely retribution trap for Soviet dissenters.

The constitutional right of average citizens to freely discuss non-violent political reform, or to expose and condemn the lies of our government in a public forum, without fear of having to account to some manner of national security police, now or in the near future, has become problematic in America in the past 6 yrs -- as you surely well know.

While highly visible dissenters may still feel that they're momentarily protected from the growing threat of direct or indirect retribution for having expressed their dissent (precisely because of their established visibility), other dissenters, whether just-regular people or people who've been on the inside but never had, or no longer have, such protective visibility, increasingly don't feel this assurance.

So, for the moment, in these kinds of freer-wheeling online contexts, many of the latter choose to (try to) remain anonymous for fear of possible local retribution, or future interrogation or arrest in the name of national security, etc.

Such personal concerns are no longer unreal or paranoic for presently-vulnerable dissenters. They're quite real, as government police actions
have shown.

I, personally, continue to act and write under my legal name and up-front identity in my local area, with the seeming advantage of having earlier been a fairly high-placed elected state official. But, since I came very close to loosing my present quasi-public job several years ago, and also having received threats of physical harm against myself and my family -- simply for my local OPED letters against Bush/corporate America -- I don't candidly opinionate in the same manner anymore.

My local newspaper OPED letters now tend to stick to the veridical facts that indict the Bush Administration, and I go easier on jawing my personal impressions of why America's popular culture, and our political system, is fast becoming irredemably corrupt. But people don't like to hear it generally. For some, you threaten collapse of their denail psychology if you speak too openly and credibly - and such people are willing to threaten and perhaps act-out harm to you, for this.

Accordingly, even my more candid personal impressions on websites are now rendered anonymously - for these same reasons.

If you, Paul Bramscher, are in a more secure personal position, economically or physically, to render all of your opinions up-front and under your own name, then good for you. I too hope to get similarly secure. But I'm not so, now.

Meanwhile, you're in no legitimate position to second guess the rationale for the website anonymity that I -- or anyone els here-- chooses to employ -- without (at least!) coming to know more personally the CD posters you want to put your Pox upon.

If you need to know more about me, personally, please post your reasons, here. If they make sense to me, I'd gladly be open to getting in touch with you, personally; even to discuss, further, why all of us may need to abandon website anonymity, sooner rather than later.

But so far, your argument to me, for Poxing anonymity, only insensitively projects on to me the personal security you feel about yourself, and says percious little about the personal secutity concerns that I and others here may face and rightly be concerned about.

That said, what I take to be your deeper point about personal courage, when end-game push finally comes to end-game shove, isn't lost on me.

If and as the political situation in our country begins to nose-dive into what I judge to be legal legitimation of untenable police actions against such citizen dissent as is left to us, I'll need no prompting from you or folks like you to act with all anonymity left behind.

Needless to say, those of us who are especially vulnerable to survival-undercutting retribution, and who have families to care for, are hoping that such a final, wide open, personal jeopardy can be obviated by our present efforts. And if you feel the need or right to mock this concern, please don't bother to respond.

If you intend to respond, please let me know why you felt it necessary to isolate me, "logos.nine," as recipient of your website moral imperatives.

And please be ethically consistent enough to open yourself to personal questions by me, here on this wbsite, about what else YOU are doing, besides posting on this site, however virtuously you judge yourself to be for having done so, under your legal name. Your personal website really only explains your advocated political actions for others as a projection based on your personal circumstances; it fails to provide practical solutions for those of us whose loss of website-dissenter anonymity may well threaten our ability to provide survival necessities for ourselves and our families.

I want to believe you're not really this solopcistic.

Well-meaning regards for now,

logos.nine

The AP story is a case in point.

Rather's piece did NOT "rely" on the documents whose provenance is questioned. They could have been omitted without changing the thrust and scope of the story.

Another wrong point not seen in this article but becoming part of the copycat misreporting: bloggers did NOT prove the documents were forgeries. They pointed out that certain typewriting advances had not yet been made by the date of the documents, and they were mistaken about that. They had indeed been made, by IBM Selectric, the typewriter with the little interchangeable ball fonts. Nobody has proved the documents were forgeries; they just can't prove they are authentic, the author being dead and all.

A material omission: the secretary who can't recall typing them CAN recall Killian SAYING everything they contain. This is not inconsistent with an honest soul being heavily pressured and trying to escape down the middle.

It was a mistake not to confirm the provenance of the documents more thoroughly, but a minor one. The story itself was solid. Rather went for overkill and got blowback.

logos.nine,

I raised my concerns. You can google my name and see hundreds of posts in the pre-blog era of the venerable usenet. But how many other people, even on forums like this one, are courageous enough to even post under their real names? I've hoped for the past 10-15 years that my doing so would encourage other ordinary people to come out. For the most part, it's not happened. A pox on everyone who hides.

We have is a handful of academics (Chomsky, Zinn, etc.) some "professional activists" (like Hightower, Klein, etc.), personalities (Nader), etc. But it all tends to be high-level, high-profile, somehow-sneaked-through-the-MSM-sieve individuals. None is doing this without some financial gain.

There aren't enough ordinary people who care, or have the courage, to say what's right for its own sake alone -- or for the sake of everyone.

Yes, truth is the issue. And some of you are able to discern it and the rest are still confused.

If all Americans and the rest of the world for that matter are to receive truth in the media, then the public need to be equipped with better tools to discern truth. The slick propaganda machine doesn't help. You want to get people knowing truth, then you have to first equip them with the sort of analytical tools that enable them to discern truth from fiction.

Truth informs, enlightens and makes sense. It increases understanding and clears up confusions. It leaves no unanswered questions. It is verifiable. It can be and is substantiated.

Truth today is stretched so thin that nobody knows what to believe any more. So until you can demonstrate what is believable, and equip people to grok and not be duped, then you will continue to have an environment that is able to duped, and which is.

Critical analytical thinking is essential as a tool of life for any individual who would be free.

Educational systems today are not designed to equip students to be critical thinkers, though much is said about this, and it is a purported aim, the truth is that not enough time is given to analyze information critically and verify or determine the workability or truthfulness of what is being force-fed at high pressure into receptive minds eager to learn so they can get a job and start recouping a return on the investment that their education represents. The very pace of life and the volume of information makes it difficult to ingest, let alone, assess and verify value.

Morselization of the news is one of the factors that denies the public the information necessary to determine truth. But, the very fact of morselization should be an immediate flag for the public to raise and lead them to doubt the veracity of any message broadcast.

This is just one step that needs to be taken: equip your children with the tools to know truth on their own terms. This is not a matter of preaching of asserting your own truth over theirs. It's a matter of equipping them with analytic tools, intellectual devices if you will that enable them to determine the degree of value in any fact offered them for consumption. How to verify? How to determine value? How to determine relevance? How to determine the existence of agenda, or bias of any kind? These are the sort of things that need to be focused on if you want to have people equipped for and demanding quality information, and disparaging and ignoring biased, and ill-founded information, spin and propaganda.

Once people know how to determine truth and its value they will no longer be as capable of being duped as they have been. The very fact that they have been so duped for so long is an indicator of the need to develop and teach such tools. What are the mechanisms of deception? How do they work? What does it really mean to know, to understand, to have certainty? How does character assassination work? Why is it used? Why is the truth one man communicates truly for the benefit of others more important than what a crowd believes to be true? When does the viewpoint of a majority have no value, and how can you know that this is the situation? How do you find out what isn't there to be seen, but whose lack is only felt, or surmised? How do you know the facts don't fit?

Truth and honesty have to have value in society and that society has to be representative of truth, protective of truth, assiduous in correcting false facts and injustices at every level. The mythology nations embrace, has to be founded in facts and history has to be corrected, when it is found to be false, because that history is what becomes the mythology of a nation. Nations have to have and reflect the sort of integrity they desire in their citizens and in the media who serve those citizens. When nations discover the mythology they teach is toxic to their survival, then they must have the courage to set the record straight. Then and only then does that nation and society provide the example to its individual constituents of the value placed on truth and honesty.

Punishing and disparaging whistleblowers instead of rewarding, admiring and supporting them for revealing the information they have discovered that serves society and saves lives does not serve truth. Treating truth tellers as scum, and failing to reward and recognize them and the value they bring to society sends a clear message from that society to its constituents of the value of truth and honesty in that society. Failing to apprehend and punish those whose lies have been proven demonstrates that such a society is corrupt, decaying, and rotting. When power has been vested and is found to be corrupt, to fail to stop that power from continuing its corruption is the act of complicity and equally corrupt, if not worse. When good men and women do nothing they are themselves corrupt. There can be no equivocation, prevarication, or procrastination in such circumstances for that too plays into the hands of corruption. Indeed that America today knows its president and his Badministration have lied and manipulated truth to serve their own ends and that of their corporate masters, and that Americans do nothing to set that situation to rights, is the defining moment of American character in the world. And so the world has learned that Americans and their ideals are corrupt and their words empty of value and meaning.

You must act on truth or it has no value. Not deliberate, pontificate, prevaricate, obfuscate and be paralyzed by fearful doubt. To do any of these things is to devalue truth, and demean honesty. This does not mean that one should not investigate and build evidence. But once truth is known, it is time to act. Lose that moment to act, and you become yourself the enemy of truth, honesty and justice.

America, the world knows your Constitution is no longer of value to you, for you do nothing effective to defend and protect it, even though you know that it has been corrupted by the Badministration. You await an election, when the last two are well known to be corruptions of democracy; orchestrations of such despicable deceit perpetrated upon all who love freedom and not just upon your own once great nation, now the faded light and beacon of freedom's ashes to all people who desire liberty and the opportunity to realize their full potential as human beings that was once, the American Dream. Every moment that the Badministration remains in power is a testimony to the weakness and resolve of Americans, and that makes each who does nothing an accomplice in Liberty's death, and a betrayer of the Constitution you each are sworn to defend, for you all took the Oath of Allegiance.

George W. Bush is not an American. He is certainly not keeping his presidential oath. He is duplicitous, just like his "read my lips" daddy, and he is leading the Duperpower; the nation that blatantly lies to the world, demonstrating the absolute corruption resulting of its absolute love of power. Your nation once attempted to impeach a president for a little pleasure, that his own wife forgave him for. George W. Bush and his Badministration lied to the world and took your nation to war under false pretenses and no impeachment or justice action is taken. Why should anybody trust you America? Your concept of justice, rightness and fairness appears skewed, lost and twisted, a perversion of all that is good and true and decent. George W. Bush promised to bring morality back to the White House, he has done nothing moral in his role as president. He is your most immoral and corrupt president.

But duplicity has become the way of life in America, and this is why you are having such trouble acting upon truth, even when it is known. America is a paralyzed nation, incapable of acting upon truth even when a few journalists have the integrity to report truth in service to democratic journalistic ideals. Life is not always black and white, and it is difficult in the media climate existing in America today to know the full truth of Dan Rather's story. But that he is taking action to address influence, is courageous and a step that is American and does serve those ideals that made America great. Would that more of you would take such action.

CBS spokesman Dana McClintock did not return an after-hours call seeking comment Thursday. He has called Rather's complaints "old news" and said the lawsuit was "without merit." A spokesman for Viacom declined to comment.

"Old news" Dana McClintock hides from the facts. The Corporate Government Propaganda machine needs to be ended.

So what can be done with people like "Old news" Dana? They are so easily bought and sold in the "free market" of "red light district journalism."

Hi, KEM PATRICK, you said, "The problem here in America lies not quite so much with the newspapers.."

The editor of the New York Times, back in the mid-19th century once made a comment about what a bunch of hooey was printed in his own paper, due to political interference.

Also, Thomas Paine was not a journalist. He was a radical pamphleteer. And, Americans do not trust their government. We of all people have more of a distrust for big government than any other people ever have.

RE the purity of Dan Rather's motives & timing:

It's fair to say he could have spoken out sooner; more directly while still CBS Anchor; not waited till he became a corporate scape goat, to turn on his bosses, etc.

But it's also fair to say that many more of us regular citizens could have raised hell sooner, too -- in our own smaller ways, as we saw our country slipping into fascism. Yet, how many of us progressives did that, ourselves -- or even do it now?

Granted, Rather, because of his position, had a greater obligation to speak-out sooner. Okay, he's not a perfect moral creature. But at least he's showing pretty good courage now.

But to condemn Rather at this point - while there's still time for his candor to make a difference -- to me smacks of a self-defeating kind of left wing Calvinism which I see all too much of on this site..

The fulller measure of Rather's concern for democracy will henceforth be seen by how well he uses his visibility to keep actively fighting against the dire threat he now indicates he's aware of.

Go on the public speech stump, Dan, and do it free of charge. And, if you win your $70 million law suit, put that money, too, where your mouth is. Otherwise, maybe your critics will be proved right.

VanishingEarth September 22nd, 2007 7:13 am
"The Bush Dynasty would engage in a vendetta with Mr. Rather from that point on. Mr. Rather reported on the Bush 43's questionable military record (or lack thereof) and he was summarily excommunicated. This was not just happenstance."

peacemaker September 22nd, 2007 9:50 am
"George W Bush is a monumental bully....I suspect he always has been one. He bullied his way into the White House the first time and everyone let him. He bullied his own party members with threats of GOP funds being cut off if they didn't toe the mark. He bullied politician's into going to war with the threats of being called 'Un-American', 'unpatriotic', 'aiding and abetting the enemy'....kept the mess going for five years....threatening all dissenters....muzzling the American people with threats & intimidation.....

Both excellent posts....

I don't want to bore readers with more of my unwelcome insights...but here goes the parallels or similarities with Hitler's Germany, again this is the 2007 Americanized version....
From:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/osssection3pt1.htm

(24) This has enabled Hitler to make full use of terror and mobilize the fears of the people which he evaluated with an almost uncanny precision.

(25) He has the capacity for learning from others even though he may be violently opposed to everything they believe and stand for. The use of terror, for example, he says he learned from the Communists, the use of slogans from the Catholic Church, the use of propaganda from the democracies, etc.

(26) He is a master of the art of propaganda. Ludecke writes:

"He has a matchless instinct for taking advantage of every breeze to raise a political whirlwind. No official scandal was so petty that he could not magnify it into high treason; he could ferret out the most deviously [unreadable] corruption in high places and plaster the town with the bad news."

His primary rules were: "Never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; NEVER ACCEPT BLAME; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will BELIEVE A BIG LIE sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later BELIEVE IT!!!!!!"

FROM:
"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/
It has been proved that Adolf Hitler suffered from idiopathic Parkinson's disease...Professor Max de Crinis established his diagnosis of Parkinson's disease in Hitler early in 1945 and informed the SS leadership, who decided to initiate treatment with a specially prepared 'antiparkinsonian mixture' to be administered by a physician. However, Hitler never received the mixture, this implies that the SS intended to remove the severely diseased 'Leader'. Two different character traits can be analyzed in Hitler's personality: on the one hand the typical pre-morbid personality of Parkinson's patients with uncorrectable MENTAL RIGIDITY, EXTREME INFLEXIBILITY....On the other an antisocial personality disorder with lack of ethical and social values, a deeply rooted tendency to betray others and to deceive himself and UNCONTROLLABLE EMOTIONAL REACTIONS. This special combination in Hitler's personality resulted in the uncritical conviction of his mission and an enormous driving for recognition."

MY comment here: Untreated alcoholism will lead many sufferers to develop Parkinson's Disease in latter life with advancing symptoms as a pre-onset condition...There are SIMILARITIES with Bush's erratic behavior of late and I am not suggesting Bush has Parkinson's Disease.

LASTLY, [you will be glad to know]

IF WE DON"T UNDERSTAND HISTORY WE ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT.....

CBS has a sordid history of caving into right wing demands.
Unfortunately it was Edward R. Murrow, as acting vice president of
CBS news, who fired a number of liberal comentators at the behest
of CEO Bill Paley, and counselled remaining staff to take a loathsome
loyalty oath- the only major network that made the taking of such an oath contingent on employment.
Among those Murrow fired was William Shirer, this in l947, just
five years after he authored award winning dispatches from Berlin during the
second world war. 1947 was the year Shirer wonthe Polk award for his
very popular news broadcast and commentary. Future generations know of him
through the authorship of his famous tome, THE RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD
REICH. There are several chapters on the censorship of American news in
his memoirs, TWENTIETH CENTURY JOURNEY VOL. III. Leave it to say he was very concerned by the fascist drift of the large news networks.
Shirer felt Murrow waited to long to take his stand against the
right wing and McCarthy, and that the delay had the effect of destroying
independent reporting at CBS.
Dan Rather he viewed as a light weight without the courage of his convictions. This too in TWENTIETH CENTURY JOURNEY.

Dan Rather, imho, never did any substancial reporting since he was heir apparent to Walter Concrite. He had a cushy, powerful job that he enjoyed, so, he took the corporte perks and lived the New York life of ease. That, I believe was what caused his ratings to sag: I know I turned him off for his simple-minded distillation of complex issues that deserved deeper analysis.

Suddenly he had to share the throne with Connie Chung. Remember? This forced him to do anything to get his ratings up, and that mindset, I think, is what got him on a collision course with the Bush Crime Family. He was already on their financial hit list. But I beleive Rather is kind of a Benidict Arnold. I don't trust him at all not to cut a deal to save his own skin.

The only thing ballancing his enormous greed is his enormous ego. And there is the only hope we have that Dan will stay the course and put the country ahead of his bank account. But I'm not holding my breath.

How about it Dan?

You talked the talk. Now can you walk the walk?

The Jury is still out on you Mr Anchorman.....

It is unbelievable how this explosive potentially damaging news story that Dan Rather courageously broadcast became such a discombobulated distortion of the underlying truth, which is that G W Bush used his fathers political influence to get special treatment and was able to avoid going to Vietnam.

This type of arrogance and chicken hawk mentality should have been a deal breaker for the American people and a sure bet that he could not win (re-election) under a cloud of cowardice and special privilege but the story backfired under skillful right wing propaganda.

Hopefully this lawsuit against the biased CBS corporate lackeys who favored a republican victory in 2004 will finally get a fresh airing without the right wing magicians using smoke and mirrors to distort the facts.

In everyones haste to discredit Dan Rathers "unsubstantiated" allegations we have forgotten that no one has yet told us where in the world W disappeared to when he was in the National Guard and was supposed to go to Vietnam??

Forget about the minutiae and the petty insignificant details regarding whether some documents were forgeries or not the important question still remains where were you George and why did you refuse to serve in a war you wholeheartedly supported?

Thanks Dan Rather for bringing this important issue back to the publics attention you were right to try and expose the hypocrisy of this man and his minions I hope you have better luck with them this time around.

I agree with Dan. He was unjustly removed from his job at CBS for political reasons. CBS should have stood up for him and started the fight for restoring our democracy. We are headed in the wrong direction and losing our rights. The current administration is following a plan based on fear to mandate the loss of our liberty, engaging in an illegal occupation of Iraq and initiating a "SS" type of "non-military" militia named Black Water. I feel like I am living in Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany. All the signs are there, but no one is listening or reporting it.

How many of you would risk your paycheck to back up your statements???? There aren't many out there who would let's face it! That's asking way to much of the average journalist to slit his own throat even though he knows he is not reporting the news and sucking up to big Corporations who are in turn sucking up to the White House.

George W Bush is a monumental bully!!!! There is no way to get around that sad fact. I suspect he always has been one. He bullied his way into the White House the first time and everyone let him. He bullied his own party members with threats of GOP funds being cut off if they didn't toe the mark. He bullied politician's into going to war with the threats of being called 'unamerican', 'unpatriotic', 'aiding and abetting the enemy' and numerous other threats! He has kept the mess going for five years now the same way by threatening all desenters! He has effectively muzzled the American people with threats and intimidation. So you tell me? You expect some poor journalist to stand up to this monumental bully when he is standing virtually alone. That is expecting way to much from the average person. They are like everyone else they have to make a living! Why should they when very few people in this country seem to care what the truth is anymore. They are happy to believe all of George's lies. Apparently 42% of all American's still believe Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11! That is sad! In a country that has so many sources of information. That people have chosen to dumb themselves down by listening to Fox's latest version of the truth!

i never once heard any of those from the bush camp deny the contents of the story. the spin was directed to whether or not the document was authentic, not the contents. anytime they were asked if the contents were true or false, they would never answer, and always divert back to the authenticity of the document itself. as to bush going awol. GUILTY as charged.

If anyone in television has been victimized by the Bush Dynasty, it is Dan Rather. After a now famous interview with Bush 41 in which Mr. Rather asked some very tough questions, Bush 41 had this to say: (does it sound familiar?)

""Well, I had my say, Dan. [Rather] makes Lesley Stahl look like a pussy. The worst time I've had in twenty years of public life. But it's going to help me, because that bastard did not lay a glove on me. I'm really upset. You can tell your goddam network that if they want to talk to me, they can raise their hands at a press conference. No more 'Mr. Insider' stuff."
--George Bush to CBS after the interview.

The Bush Dynasty would engage in a vendetta with Mr. Rather from that point on. Mr. Rather reported on the Bush 43's questionable military record (or lack thereof) and he was summarily excommunicated. This was not just happenstance.

I hope Mr. Rather's suit gets tons of media coverage, and since he has nothing to lose, I expect nothing less than the corrupt shenanigans and the heavy handed tactics used to smear him to be plainly laid out for all to see.

Thank you Dan Rather.

Why did he feel the need to throw...

"the journalists who run news organizations and who report the news fight hard to protect the independence of the journalism, and most of the time succeed.""

...in the mix?

That's an overstatement to the point of just wrong.

I read that Rather learned that the investigator hired by CBS was actually hired to get something on he and the producer. The hiring took place after Rather offered to hire an investigator out of his own pocket but was discouraged by CBS with the assurance that they were hiring one. That would make me angry enough to sue. At the time, reporters in the know said that the documents had figuratively "Rove's fingerprints all over it." Rather had the facts and the witness. Everybody forgets that. A Texas source was set up by a woman who disappeared. The source lied about his source saying that it came from the National Guard days. Rather had expected CBS to get an expert validation of the documents. They reflected the facts as the investigation showed them to be. That's one way to get rid of a newsman of Rather's stature.

I am glad that Mr. Rather is doing this. Once the heavy hand of the corporation smacked him down, he felt the sting that the rest of us have felt for some time now.

But don't think Rather is alone. Anyone who works for corporate media AS WELL AS other multinational corporations is a potential victim.

You may even be part of the problem if you work for these corporations, the ones that your portfolio manager tells you to invest in.

Golden handcuffs are fine (I guess) until the corporation decides you're crap and you must go.

Soviet media was propaganda but people there knew it. In Union Soviet of America -- people are so brainwashed that they even can't understand that the "mainstream media" is propaganda for corporate controlled governement. Capitalism is result of the same historical thinking that created "communism" and fascism. Capitalism is a threat to democracy and if we have chose between two -- then better capitalism go.

Earth to Americans... Edward R. Murrow was the head propagandist of the US Information Agency when it was first established. He is no saint.

It's about time that we started to get the straight scoop on the corporatizers and their corporatocracy - - thank you, Dan Rather! Where do you think the neo-cons are getting all their support and their fire power? It is time for we "little people" to unite and return the government to the people so it can be for the people and by the people instead of all the special interests.

I'm curious how Rather's legal team calculated 70 big ones. Lost wages? So if he was paid $70,000,000.01 we're to assume he'd have gone along, and still be shilling for D.C. power-brokers, AIPAC, etc?

I mean, how much of this stand is principled, and how much is personal?

Its just tat people are getting tired of the way media distorts news. Who the hell cares if OJ is in conflict about some of his trophies. But what do we get day in and day out. It will be interesting after Bush- Cheney leave office to see how the VP ran media operations out of the White House. unfortunately we won't find out till they leave office.Rather won't ever find out through discovery his premise the White House will insure that kind of data is of a protected nature.

If Dan Rather is a great journalist, William Shatner is a great actor.

Rather has always been a mediocre blowhard corporate shill. It's no wonder he got burned with some crudely forged documents. There was lots of other evidence out there to base the story of Bush's nonservice in the TANG, but rather than give credit to the journalists who'd unearthed it, Rather relied on what he could portray as his own original investigative reporting.

Now he's back to stand up for "democracy" against "big corporate and big government interference and intimidation in news", and along the way try to collect $70M. If I were in the jury I'd find in his favor, for 70 cents.

Wildlander September 21st, 2007 9:06 pm

First off, thank you for your in-depth response. I am inclined to agree with your assessment of the GB military service and Rather's pursuit of it; and, I pretty much figured that Bush's negligence of duty was basically true and that Carl Rove went around the country cleaning up the records. However, my posts are addressing the contention that Rather did not speak out against the corporate control of the MSM throughout his career and NOT Rather's courage against an administration that was sure to retaliate. If you read all the posts I made on this thread that is clear. Furthermore; your personal hatchet job you did on me in your original post is reminiscent of Carl Rove's tactics and don't serve your credibility very well. If I wanted to make the same type of baseless accusations about you, I could say that you and Dan Rather are one in the same. But I think he is smarter than that.

Screw the website 'The Nation'.

A better one is the Huffington Post.

The Nation is pro bitch Hillary. The Nation is pro-turncoat democrat.

It was already well documented that Bush used his family status to enter the Texas Air National Guard to evade real military duty, and then even abandoned that champagne unit. These documents revealed no new information, and would certainly be exposed as fraudulent.. This could only lessen the political impact of his shameful military performance while providing ammunition to discredit his opponents – hence improving his re-election bid.

All indications are that this apparent fiasco had been a set up, manipulated by Karl Rove, the genius of such schemes.

I watched Rather for years knowing full well he wasn't reporting the facts, the day I saw him with his new crew/buzz cut saying he would follow wherever this Prez led.I turned off the tv. and only turn it on now to watch Bill Moyers or music specials ( I subscribe,to the Nation, In These Times, Extra! the New Internationalist,Counter Punch, Progressive,Guardian Weekly last and least the New York Times daily and our daily Gannett rag I listen to Air America Radio, Democracy Now all day long and occasionally to Progressive Radio. So it's the truth is out there just go get it? Turn off the damned tube, especially now that you know where the news is coming from.

I have found the best volume of the best investigative journalism ever! Tell Me No lies. John Pilger. Stories about several of the Investigative Journalists he has known whoes stories have not been permited to be told. Edward R. Murrow, etc. great read.

zhongman,

>And, when had he come out and announced that >influence before he was fired?

Here are teh sequence of events as they occured.

Dan Rather goes against the Bush Administrations wishes and interviews Saddam Hussein.

In the resulting political attack, he then spoke his mind outside the US in a Britian interview. In that interview had this to day (and many more things aginst the administration):

Dan Rather: "It is an obscene comparison - you know I am not sure I like it - but you know there was a time in South Africa that people would put flaming tyres around people's necks if they dissented. And in some ways the fear is that you will be necklaced here, you will have a flaming tyre of lack of patriotism put around your neck. Now it is that fear that keeps journalists from asking the toughest of the tough questions, and to continue to bore in on the tough questions so often. And again, I am humbled to say, I do not except myself from this criticism."

He said much, much more that damaged the Bush Administration.

Here is one of many links to that interview:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/05_may/16/dan_rather.shtml

When Dan Rather came back to the US, he stated that while he was here under Bushes rule, he would conform (for fear of his careeer and his life). Now some here have nefariousely used that against him, but it was meant in a sense of rebellion. He loves his country for what it once was and he has to survive here, so while he spoke out in Britian he was saying he would keep his mouth shut while here in the US. But the damange was done and they went after him. And he fought back by going public with the investigation of Bushes military career. And for that they brought out the big guns and destroyed him via corpro-govenmental infleuence over big media. Note that they NEVER disproved or found Bushes records.

The people of this country instead of staying focused on the disservice of George Bush, they followed the big media piper and fell in line to the focus on a few documents and they allowed themselves to me mislead in tracking down the real documents that would have proven Dan Rather right. Those documents were never found because during the confusion, intentionally created, they took that moment of confusion to destory Bushes records.

But the point is, Bush was never ever able to justify his time and his improper behavior and AWOL. Now I am certain they will fabricate those documents now, but only after Dan Rather makes it an issue again. The fact that they have not come forth the last 4 years will be proof that any such documents now will be nothing but propoganda fabricated to support Bushes reputation.

At the time, there was not enough time to fabricate pro-Bush documents. And so they had to take the heat of Bush and put in on Dan Rather. The had to discredit the messenger. And the gullible witless people of this country fell in line behind the brainwashing corporate media. It is enough to make one puke. But you have the sequence of events here now and I hope you all will take another look.

Dan Rather spoke out against the Bush Administration a year before this issue of the Bushes military service. He became a target, was set up, and took a fall for the truth. And the people, like a mob, allowed themselves to be led to one of the greatest disservices of this nation by not following through on the service records of Bush. The real issue was never resolved. The American people allowed themselves to be sidetracked and coerced to take down the truth teller - Dan Rather.

Now I have given you the proof you asked for and I have explained the comment Dan Rather4 made about stepping in line behind Bush. He stated that with a real sense of "agaionst his will". But otherwise clearly spoke his mind in Britian to the international community.

-Wildlander

LOL canuckchuck, is there really any question as to whether Bush is a draft dodging coward? Anyone that would even entertain the thought otherwise is a fool or delusional. He's never done an honest day's work in his life and he never will.

Even in todays stories about Rather, they are refuring to the "discredited report on Bush's Military Service"

The story was never "discredited"...it has been questionsed by SOME, but never proven to be untrue. The documents have been questioned, the secretary of Bush's Commander at the time says they are real, but they have never been proven to be false or forgeries.

Bush's military service record is still mysterously "missing in action"

this to me says the story is true until proven otherwise

Why is Rather coming out with this now? Why not three years ago, seven years ago, or longer? He knew it the entire time and finally came out with the truth! So why is Tom Brokaw not coming out with the truth? Why is Wolf Blitzer not coming out with the truth? Forget Bill O'Reilly (I never considered him a journalist anyway). Hell will freeze over before he ever comes out with the truth! And even then he will try to spin it! More importantly, what is Dan Rather going to do with $70 million? He already is a multi-millionaire. If he engages in philanthropic endeavor to restore journalistic integrity and objectivity, then I will praise him. But I am not going to hold my breath.

Somehow both this story and this discussion bring to mind what my long ago Russian professor told us during class at least once per semester. She told us that we have more propaganda here and it's more tightly controlled than what she remembered of the Soviet Union, and that this was in many ways scarier than the propaganda of the Soviets since with the Soviets you knew it was propaganda but here we pretend to have freedom of speech and that the media tells the unvarnished truth. Worth mention, I went to college during the last bit of Regan's second term and part of the first Bush's Presidency - and my professor was a die-hard Republican party member who'd left the Soviet Union under Stalin near the end of WWII.

Not that I expect anything to come of Mr. Rather's suit, it's nice but scary to hear someone in the media admit she was right.

Thank you, Dan Rather, for standing up to be heard when it is neither popular nor rewarded. You have caved in the past and we hope that you are able to redeem yourself to some degree here. Heck! At least this story will be forced back into the consciousness of all those Amnesiac Americans who so conveniently forget! Lest we forget, GO DAN!!

Well said Peter.

Thank You Dan Rather. If more journalists would get off their prostituted backs and tell the truth for once, this country would again become 'great'. As it is, the USA sadly has to settle for powerful. All things are cyclical. When the 'powerful' is all gone; and it will be, there will be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth.
God Bless you, Dan Rather.

I disagree Ruth. ___ Not always. Thomas Paine was never controlled by the Government, or the king. Napolean feared the press more than a thousand cannon, as he so well put it. Then years later, a couple of young reporters dug up the Watergate story and it 'was' published. Edward R. Murrow told it like it was, he stopped "Tail Gunner Joe". Remember that Rat SOB who was a fore-runner of Karl Rove.

The problem here in America lies not quite so much with the newspapers, it lies 'mostly' in television news, which is controlled by a handful who do the corporate dance. Of course I'll admit, they often just read us the newspaper.

Most Americans get their news from TV, if they don't click off after getting disgusted with half of the hour long programs, taken over by stupid commercials that sell HEAD-ON__ apply directly to the forehead, then five more selling insurance or some new drug, and warn us it might cause a heart attack, stroke, or blindness.

The problem is the citizens are not informed of the truths, of citizens who work hard, come home and relax, turn on the boob tube and either listen to half truth newscasts or something that is less depressing. We are no longer a reading society and we want to trust our government and so many do. Then if they're also members of a church, they likely will believe ANY who say they're born again Christians, including presidents. Maybe I'll just shut up here before I piss someone off.

I'm glad he's making a public issue of this, but it's rather hard to take him seriously. Did he just realize that the government and media have been in bed together? Where has he been? It didn't seem to bother him for the 44 years that he's been collecting millions of dollars for spouting corporate propaganda. It's only when he's off the payroll that he finally speaks up. Nevertheless, as I say, it's good he's finally speaking up. Better late than never, I suppose. I presume that, now that he's developed a conscience, he'll be donating a good chunk of his millions to the millions of Vietnamese suffering birth defects from Agent Orange (which he never reported on), or the millions of Iraqis who are now homeless. But I wouldn't hold my breath. :)

BTW, on an historical note, CBS and the Bushes have a very long relationship. In 1932 Prescott Bush, while working at Harriman-Brown Bros, was the lead man in arranging CBS' initial public offering.

Regardless of ancient history;

It is a good thing that Dan Rather came out to speak at this time.

WHY?

Because:

(not in order of importance)

a) He's a household name. His name recognition is and has been big for decades.

b) When a household name says something, the sheeple listen.

c) As a larger-than-life figure, his speaking out will help others feel more confident in disclosing past abuses such that compiled, could incriminate the criminals at hand in a wolrd court of somekind. (Better and orderly affair than one where we the sheeple get slaughtered by retribution from the rest of the planet. Or maybe not.)

We don't seem to learn much until we get the "life-altering-event" experience to take notice of something or other.

Whether it's revenge or not, it can only be of benefit to the rest of us if we are willing to see this event for the positive aspects it has to offer.

There is NOTHING new here.
All media in all countries of the world have ALWAYS been controlled by their "governments".

The offices of independent publications have, since heaven knows when, been raided by "government" offcials, e.g. police.
Independent journalists have been found murdered...they were digging too deeply...

Even in "ancient" times people were not allowed to voice their opinions freely.

So again: nothing new here.

Ruth Benderall.
whitepatches@verizon.net

My husband went to law school with Dan Rather and we have followed his career forever. I believe he is very knowledgeable, but also very sincere and a loyal American. I hope he does get a pile of money out of this - he was wronged and he deserves it!

What did Rather do that was so out there? The only thing I can think of is he told Greg Palast that the news people stopped doing investigations after 9/11, because if you did so you'd get a tire hung around your neck. But he admitted that he went easy on the administration. So, I mean, it's nice that he realizes he was a tool, but that doesn't really change the past. It only confirms what we already knew.

don't forget that rather had the balls to tell the truth about bush's service, or shoiuld i say nonservice. now he is getting villified by some of you who keep harping about the msm. it cost him his job. i tip my hat to him.

I really loved it when Rather told the world about bush's obfuscation at military duty,,,and wish like hell he had never capitulated...at least he would have gone out standing by truth.....seems a bit late for the substantive truth ....wish he had done this long ago.

It's pointless to argue with this government. I turned off the MSM nonsense that we get from the Ministry of Truth. They can take their propaghanda and shove it up their collective Memory Holes as far as I am concerned. The time for talking is past.

Wildlander September 21st, 2007 2:03 pm

CBS has been under the corporate influence for a long time. Maybe Rather should be given kudos for trying to change the system from within. But you convince me that he moved to the top of that corporate media organization without a clue as to the kind of influence it was exerting over it's news content. That wouldn't make him a very good journalist now would it. And, when had he come out and announced that influence before he was fired? Your comments concerning my post display an emotional content that avoids the issue as I see it. He spoke out about the corporate control of the media only after he left his job. If I am wrong on that point, I invite you to show me were he did. I support Rather's actions and hope he is effective in prying-off the stangle hold that corporations have on our MSM. I don't watch it anymore, do you? By the way, I post only under this handle and I would be quicker to call myself an idiot than any of the people who know me. However, you don't know me.

"could not autenticate" is a HELL of a lot different than "forged"

From what we have seen of this sorry excuse for a president, let alone a human, I don not doubt that Bush was AWOL and drunk most of the time.

Even REGAN called him a "ne're do well"

Richard Thornburgh was Bush Senior's AG. Impartiality, give me a break. This crap of Republican Party over truth and patriotism, against democracy and popularism has been going on a lot longer than the Shrub has been in office. It started with the dregs of the deposed Nixon Admin consolidating into their cabal of neo-conism and raptor capitalism.

"The Mainstream media really represent elite interests, and what the propaganda model tries to do is stipulate a set of institutional variables, reflecting this elite power, that very powerfully influence the media." -Edward Herman

======================

"The media is the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses." Malcolm X

======================

"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is that numbers of people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war, and millions have been killed because of this obedience. . . Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of
poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem." Howard Zinn, "Failure to Quit", p. 45

====================

"It is part of the general pattern of misguided policy that our country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in an artificually induced psychosis of
war hysteria and nurtured upon an incessant propaganda of fear."
—General Douglas MacArthur, Speech, May 15, 1951

=======

"One reason that propaganda often works better on the educated than on the uneducated is that educated people read more, so they receive more propaganda. Another is that they have jobs in management, media, and academia and therefore work in some capacity as agents of the propaganda system--and they believe what the system expects them to believe. By and large, they're part of the privileged elite, and share the interests and perceptions of those in power. " Noam Chomsky

A good short article:
Propaganda American Style by Noam Chomsky
http://www.zpub.com/un/chomsky.html
================

Media Education Foundation
Elite Propaganda
THE MYTH OF THE LIBERAL MEDIA
The Propaganda Model of News

Watch/Listen to free 60 min. video:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6435.htm

Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky demolish one of the central tenets of our political culture, the idea of the "liberal media." Instead, utilizing a systematic model based on massive empirical research, they reveal the manner in which the news media are so subordinated to corporate and conservative interests that their function can only be described as that of "elite propaganda."

x
xxx

Here we go again. I wonder PJD if you are just a second email account and anonymously supporting your comments under your zhongman account?

You see folks, this is how the real trolls work. They sign up with two accounts under two different names and then use their second account to give a false voice and false second individual perception in support of their own previous posts.

PJD and zhogman is likely one and the same person.

Now, PJD, why did you complete blow off the Hussien interview? Rather did that against the expressed wishes of the Bush Administration. And the talk he gave to the press corp against the Bush administration. Did he say the things you claim he did. I doubt it, give me your references. But even if he did, it was early on when he like everyone else was fooled. And he got pissed when he found out he was used and why he turned it around. He fought back.

So PJD, put it where the son doesn't shine.

-Ken

Wildlander, it appears that you are the troll defending Rather. Rather was a corporate shill. That he is only able now, to suggest the emperor might be a bit inappropriately dressed, from the plush comfort and security of retirement is very definition of cowardice!

Are you forgetting the time he gestured a salute through the camera to Bush and said "anything you want me to do for your war on terror, I'll do it, Mr. President!"

If the media was smarter and braver--when they got threatened by a government or corporation that says do as we say or we will cut you off.

Just speculate.
Start doing stories that say: sources have suggested that this and that.

Bad stuff. Just say it isnt confirmed.

Canada wants to do that with the seal hunt--preventing protesters from witnessing it. So, the protesters just need to use older footage and say: this is going on right now. The government is blocking witnesses.

For the government to prove its not the case--they would have to let the protesters on the ice. Censorship only works if enough people let it work.

Dan Rather knows he will not win this fight. The courts themselves have been corrupted by corporatism. His purpose is to serve as an example for the rest of you. He was wounded severely and now he is healed enough to take the front lines again. Do you charge out to stand with him? Or hide as cowards in your bunkers? Rather is THE example of courage... one of the few remaining true Americans in this country. He is standing up for what he believes in knowing he will be crucified. He is not only a hero but a true Christian of the highest regard. Compare his Christianity to the satanic Bush-Cheney christianoty that takes the name of Christ to corrupt it with violence, bloodshed, lies, and turn the world against the name of Christ.

It is clear he is not doing this for himself. He knows the lawsuit will fail. He is going to take another hit in the hopes he gives America courage to stand up as one People.... to turn this country around.

So the question is, are you just going to keep sitting there reading the news? Or are you going to do something about it? Are you gonna run and hide when Rather is taken down again? Or are you going to be a true American hero and fight for him?

You see, heros are defined not by commands of their superiors but by independent action for what they feel is right in their hearts. Are you a crowd follower or a hero?

So which is it? Are you an American? Or a weak spineless twit?

Freedom is not free. It must be fought for. It must be died for. Each generation has their part to play. And so far, this generation has been AWOL. And if this country fails as a true democracy, it will not because Rahter lost again, but because you would not try, you would not stand up for liberty. The lack of integrity of the people themselves is why this country will fail.

It is funny how some people will sell their soul to the devil for money to do the troll work on these forums. In particular, when they know their grossly incorrect message will not be well recieved, they act like a supporter but throw out damaging tidbits of ideas to implant in peoples minds.

Take zhongman above who posts that Dan Rather waited till he was fired to speak out. What a lie. HE SPOKE OUT WHILE HE WAS THE ANCHOR AND WHY THIS WHOLE THING BECAME NEWS.

Zhongman, I would call you an idiot for trying to plant this lie that Dan was a wimp and only spoke out after he was fired. In truth, he spoke out and lost his job WHILE he was anchor. And because that truth is so blatantly apparent, you are an idiot not for trying but because you though we fall for it.

Speaking out when he knew his job would be threatend demonstrates the greatest courage of all. He KNEW his job wouild be threatened in the previous interviews and actions. He spoke out against Bush in a meeting of journalists. He went and interviewed Saddam Hussien against the White Houses wishes. And for that he was targeted. And when the heat got hot, instead of shutting up, he went public with Bushes record. He fought back against all odds. He is a hero of the very highest regard.

There is not a greater American, there is not a greater patriot in this country than Dan Rather.

God bless Dan Rather and God Damn this country under hilterish corporatism (aka, Bush, Cheney, etc). I would rather see my country nuked of the face of the earth than see it head down the road Bush-Cheney and the corporate elite have taken us. And for that, I am willing to give my life for what this country once was but is no more.

At this pont motives do't matter. I am just glad that someone is finally doing something. Let us also not forget that Rather on pedestal or not (which he earned by the wa), was one of the few if not only journalist and major one at that, who attempted to eleborate on Bush's scheme of lies regarding Bush's military record. It was a set up and they got him. Had he survived perhaps others would speak out.

No matter what you think about Rather he is pointing out a truth that is much more danagerous to our country than the above ad hominen attacks. Let's focus on the issues of corporate and White House abuse of new on public airwaves. Therein lies the fascist problem.

If I owned the newsrooms, I would influence them. What should we expect?

We have allowed the government to be ruled by corporations. What did Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt and so many others warn us about that? ____ Fascism! In Websters, under that word it reads, ___ see Nazism. Well, we have arrived folks, ___ Bush's eagles have landed.

I sat in a meeting in 2002 where 2 journalists - 1 TV and 1 newspaper - volunteered the information that representatives of the Bush administration were visiting news orgs and giving them instructions on how to cover the news or lose all access to govt info.

They also each cited instances when a news story detrimental to either Bush, Israel or in praise of Muslims generated threats by corporations to pull advertising over the story content.

So in many cases this has become a way of life.

A good example is in many of today's papers the headline reads:
"Democrats fail to pass anti-war legislation despite unpopular conflict in Iraq"

A more accurate headline would be:
"Republicans block passage of anti-war legislation despite unpopular conflict in Iraq"

The first gives impression to casual reader that the war is due to Dems. the second correctly describes event.

What ever it takes to get this out in the open I am for. Even then I seriously doubt that the general public will understand. Look how many still believe that Saddam was behind 9-11. What makes anyone think that Dan Rather will make a difference. About all this will do is get him a settlement, out of court, for a large amount of money. Then he will go away. I certainly hope that it takes on a more important and larger reaction but only time will tell. See if this is still news in 3 months . . . then we can see where this is going. But meanwhile don't hold your breath.

Sorry Dan,

I can't sympathize with you. It is too obvious that your enormous ego took a major hit and you are retaliating because you are embarrased.

I always like how Bill Moyers describes the mainstream media as not necessarily always biased to the right or the left, but it is more constructive to think of the mainstream media as "stenographers to power". Taking official word, not questioning or seeking truth, and passing it along as fact.

This case is most certainly disturbing and it is good that Rather has the courage to stand up for this. I'm interested to see how this plays out.

Edward R Morrow tried to fight the take over of the "news" from the corporations. He was let go.

Everyone has sold out. "News" corporations are entertwined with defense contractors, big pharma, the auto industry, you name it. They are all kissing each other ass so they can get that next bonus and remodel their kitchens with granite and stainless steel or buy the next S class.

Fuck the truth - there is BUSINESSS TO ATTEND TO - GOD DAMN IT!!

It appears that being pushed off his pedestal has given him the motivation to rail against what he used to cooperate with. Corporate take-over of the media didn't happen this year; and, it seems that as long as he was on top, he was willing to look the other way. I am however happy he is using his notoriety to bring attention to the masses of this problem.

Rather has the rest of his life to work towards redeeming his own name and stature but it will take more than then the efforts of one man to correct the biased, manipulative nature of Corporate run information and news where profits determine right and wrong.

Everybody knows that G.W. Bush was a war hero in Vietnam so where does Rather get off trying to indicate otherwise? And if it wasn't for H.W. Bush the United Sates would have lost the 2nd world war. I think our government should have it's own journalists to report the news and to write history. Whoops, it already does!

With very few exceptions almost all MSM journalists are corporate whores.

Always blame others, e.g. the "government". How about blaming the journalists, who have been sucking up to the government and misinforming the public?