F the military. F the moron in cheffe. Disgusting indeed is the whole bunch of bad excuses of representatives. This country is totally fd up. Hopefully one day a nasty virus escapes one of the military laboratories and takes care of all those militarists and their supporters. Only a dead soldier is a good soldier. F war. All those brain dead people with their 'reasons' to build up the biggest military power in the history. Well I am looking forward for all these asholes to starve to death with their missiles stuck up their asses.
Regarding move-on.org. Greetings from Hitler, Goering and Goebbels. They are all alive and well. They got the bodies of busch, cheynee and betray-us this time.
Somebody mentioned what appears to me to be the greatest insult to any educated human being. Where was the 'condemnation' of the Swift boat asholes? Where is the condemnation of the mainstream media that dishes out bullschit 24/7. Like CNN today: 'Dictator in Columbia University'? What else has to happen for America to wake up, huh? My advice is to immediately surround the WH and arrest all those criminals for known crimes. Furthermore unilateral dissolve of the armed forces/military industrial complex, confiscation of all assets of those terrorists and a modernized version of the constitution that includes protection of the citizenry from fascist corporations and their ludicrous water carriers called politicians and representatives.
For me all is lost.

This is for Garbo46 and anyone else who has not gotten the message yet:

That's DemocratIC Party to you!

So simple.

You stinkin liberals. How dare you smear the report of a General, a man who has dedicated his adult life to the service of his country? We spent months building up the character and reputation of Gen. Betray us. We gave you anticipation and continually told you that the White House had nothing to do with his content. We spent much time and effort to make his lies better fool the people. Then you come along and start asking the questions that Katie Couric was afraid to ask. Shame on you to dare to exercise your free speech. We condemn you! Yes, condemn you move-on. And our little rat Betray us condemns you to.

The dems that voted to condem MoveOn are as misguided as the good general. From now on, when the Dem. Senatorial Campaign Committee sends their fundraising e-mails to me I will send them back with a note about the cynical behavior of these callous politicians, and refuse to give. Maybe, if they don't get our $$ and votes they may reconsider their spineless behavior.

What's disgusting is what this country has done to two countries that never posed any danger to us.

What's disgusting is that this administration is not in prison

What's really disgusting is that many of us continue to cling to the delusion that the Dims are "our party" instead of working to build a viable independent alternative.

thanks to this fascist vote petraeus will go down in history as "general betray us."

the only decent way out of irak is to admit a huge, criminal mistake, commit to pay war reparations and simply leave.

increasingly i feel bush & cheney are plotting a coup.

why did they waste time on such a stupid matter? taking an ad to a vote? brings worthless to a new low

So if General Petreus came up to me and asserted, "The sky is purple!" and I responded, "No, I think that's not the truth. I think it's blue"...

that means I'm anti-American.

So now being supportive of our military personnel means that ALL MILITARY PERSONNEL ARE INCAPABLE OF BEING WRONG...?

So "Support our Troops" is another phrase for "If someone's in the military, always believe whatever they say."

Amazing stupid bullshit.

Everyone knows that the Bush Regime went over the report before the General read it. He's just another "perfumed prince" of the Pentagon. Everyone knows that.

What I find funny is that the right-wingers love to dish it out but they can't take it when it's fed back to them. How's it feel you yellow bellied fascists? The Swift Boaters get Swift Boated -- Scream you fools --I love the smell of right wing fear in the morning.

Kristina40 sez;
'...The most obvious question everyone here has missed is simply this…Don't they have more pressing issues to vote on?..."

I think that because for most of them,their political careers are their MAIN and ONLY concern, one could say that they do not.

Another tear in the constitution. How do you like the Generals in make-up? Its a good "made for TV" shot. They look so.... GAY! What an acted out scene! This is how we lose our freedoms, folks.

One wonders whether we'll see another resolution which connects the final dots. There's talk of the KBR encampments, the executive orders with regard to martial law triumphing over habeas corpus, extraordinary rendition, etc. And now the condemnation of political ads.

Only one more dot remains: a bill which connects such ads as aiding & assisting the "bad guys" who don't respect our freedoms -- and political imprisonment to anyone who actually takes advantage of our freedoms. Kafka and Orwell are rolling over in their graves.

The question is, when they start arresting people do you get a second-chance to prove loyalty and do a little sieg heiling, or is it Abu Ghraib without Passing Go?

claudius and mastershake - that's EXACTLY why I discontinued my previous support of moveon.org. folks - there is no future with the democratic party.

i have on several occasions already informed my two democratic national representatives - moran and webb - that they will NOT be getting my vote - EVER. moran refuses to sign-on to any impeachment legislation, and webb - well, he voted YES yesterday and his rotation legislation is a cop-out. if he truly wants to end the war he can filibuster the next funding bill. he won't, of course.

A+ h buchman
Thank you!

Gee, where were these people when Swiftboatvets were doing their damage?

Oh, well. At least when Democrats screw us, they use Lube

TheLorax

Who`s to vote dear?

Do you work at the counter at the DMV?
Or just the complaints desk at city hall?

Kristina -

These guys couldn't decide on the time of day. It's a miracle they could even come to a vote on this.

Now they've assaulted free speech. Nice job to our useless Senate! Every Senator that voted against free speech should be voted out of a job as well.

The Senate approved a resolution condemning the ad and *all attacks on members of the military* by 72-25.

Zeig

HAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It`s that simple. Next thing you know they`ll be voting to change the colors of ole glory to red, white, and black.

HOW MUCH IS IT GOING TO FUCKING TAKE FOR YOU PEOPLE TO WAKE UP TO REALITY. IT`S NOT THAT IF YOU START FIGHTING YOU`LL BE PUTTING YOUR ASSES ON THE LINE. YOUR ASSES ---ARE--- ON THE LINE. THE LESS YOU FIGHT THE MORE CHANCE THEY HAVE OF PUTTING IT WHERE THEY WANT TO.
-----------------CAPISH??!--------------------

The most obvious question everyone here has missed is simply this...Don't they have more pressing issues to vote on? Why are they wasting their time and by proxy, our money, voting on bullshit like this? I'm absolutely outraged by this. Also, why didn't anyone ask Gen. Petreus' Commanding Officer what he thought of his testimony? For that matter, what he thinks of the General?
I can give you a hint in the form of a quote from Admiral Fallon himself, he called him "an asskissing little chickenshit"...I suppose we are only supposed to be reverent of Military commanders that agree with King George...

This action on part of the Senate is an inexcusable atack of free speech.

But, I hope thet everyone remembers that until the NYT ad, MoveOn's opposition to the war was virtually nonexistent, and to the extent it existed it was only over it being a "mistake" rather than a crime.

MoveOn, particularly it's leader, Eli Pariser, also prohibits any criticism of Israel.

Hopefuly MoveOn may learn a lesson from this - they can pretty much sell-out, and kiss-up to the political establishment, but in the end, they will get slandered by the reactionaries, then shunned by the very sold-out democrats they supported anyway.

Just ask the similarly moderate Michael Moore.

MoveOn can take a lesson from this and build a genuine populist revolutionary movement, starting with full support for the Kucinich campaign, or they can just compromise their position further, move further to the right and kiss-up to these democrats like an abused dog. Considering that MoveOn's behavior is just spitting image of of taht of thedemocrats, they will almost certainly take thelatter course.

The answer to 'dreamertoo's' questions:

Bush, Cheney, others in their administration, misguided, unpatriotic
Congressional republicans, democrats, and republocrats, adided by
media personages like Wolfe, Tuck, those shopping mall-high fashion news readers . . . Amazing that not one of them seems to care about life . . . All of them relate news indifferently, often smiling, even giggling on a person's tragedy as if it's all so inconsequential . . .

mastershake,

Progressives have no chance to elect a president in 2008 they could be enthusiastic about, and symbolic votes for third parties and boycotting elections have done absolutely no good in the past and I cannot imagine how they could do so in 2008. So to me the rational course of action is to vote for a Democrat provided that Democrat is committed to working toward public financing of campaigns. That would be progress, though admittedly not much (patience is one of the greatest virtues, though of course the patient must be aware they can be taken advantage of). The other choices, third party and boycott, might make one feel good, like an opiate, but they have virtually zero chance of applying pressure for any progress of any sort in 2008.

On the other hand, if it is Hillary, I would take a long pause even if she did promise to push for public financing. She is one of the least trustworthy Democratic candidates I have seen.

And of course there are choices outside of voting (besides the passive boycott), but I would not discuss those on a public forum.

Who put our troops and their families in harm's way?
Who is keeping our troops and their families in harm's way?
Who is defying the will of the American people?

MoveOn.org did not order our troops into Iraq.

Who here plans to vote democrat, and for hillary/obama/edwards in 2008?

Can you please explain to me why?

I thought the MoveOn ad could have been done more intelligently, but it serves no one's interests but the Republicans to help them change the subject and to demonize an outspoken anti-war organization. The majority of Americans are anti-war so the Republicans are desperate to marginalize those who express anti-war sentiments to convince most Americans that being anti-war is out of the mainstream and borders on treason.

Can't the Democrats at least pretend we have a two-party system? Can't they reframe the debate to get people to ask "Why do Republicans hate democracy and love war?"

It would be nice to know which of the Dems that voted for are up for election, I'd bet not too many of them. Mine voted no and he's up for re-election. Sometimes I see his voting lines change when his 6 year stint is about up! We won't get change if we don't change the faces. The Iowa Repubican (I'm sure) voted for it, but he doesn't have to run this coming year, and is protected, for now. For the next 3 voting cycles, I feel, we need to remove whose in office, no matter how they have voted.

A radical right-wing self interest group is responsible for the despicable and irresponsible use of our hard earned tax dollars.

I wrote to my senator (a Democrat who voted to condemn MOVEON). I pointed out that TV commercials promoting the war are worse.

I noted one TV commericial that has a soldier speaking for the war while in the background there is a picture of the twin towers being attacked. Since Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, I asked why he wasn't condemning the underhanded lies in this commercial.

I will not pay one more dime in federal taxes until we are out of Iraq! Nothing is going to change until the money stops. Democrares don't have the spine to stand-up to the Bush administration and cut funding , so I will, the only way I can.

Maybe this vote is just more evidence of an impotent Senate unable to check an imperial Presidency, like you see in all those movies about Roman dictators, the real power being in the executive branch and loyal military leaders.

Calling Moveon.org a radical left wing group shows just how far out of touch and to the right the so-called leadership of this country is. This is just one more example of how intolerant Bush and his regime is of any criticism. It's the same old you're with us or against us BS. (I'm especially disappointed to see that Leahy of VT went along with this nonsense. He is generally a voice of reason in the Senate.)

And I agree with others: What a collasal waste of time to take this up as a matter of debate on the Senate floor.

This is a typical, and effective, Republican strategy. The goal is simply to repress criticism. They can no longer repress criticism of this Republican administration on Iraq, so now the administration is trying to make it the "military's" war.... they (the administration, are just sitting back and taking the advice of the military leaders.

And, of course, the military is above reproach.... although the Republican adminstration itself is laying the blame for this fiasco at the feet of the military.... I heard a Republican pundit on TV recently say that "we finally got the right team in there and they are showing progress...." meaning of course that all that went before was simply a result of flawed, ineffective military leadership.

I'm not sure what the problem is with the Democrats.... they get beaten with the same stick over and over and never seem to perceive the pattern.

Of course Petraeus can be criticized.... maybe calling him "Betray Us" isn't the most sophisticated approach.... more like Swiftboating (very effective evidently). However, this Republican administration has had nearly 7 years to weed-out all non-"yes men" in the military leadership, is hyping localized military suppression of violence that cannot be sustained as signs of "some progress" and distracting public attention away from the fact that their Goal-Post is constantly moving and the bar for success has been lowered to ground.

Petraeus is playing a part in the deception by sugar-coating more dire statements he accurately made earlier, and dutifully moving the Goal Post into the next administration so Dubya doesn't have to concede failure.... laying the groundwork to propagandize failure in Iraq to the policies of what likely may be a Democratic administration in the future.

At the same time, he is underscoring his claims of success by withdrawing the surge troops at a time when he has to withdraw them anyway.

Perhaps Moveon.org could be a little more circumspect in how the do things.... but they certainly shouldn't shut up, and the Democrats shouldn't ask them to.

In-your-face confrontation is exactly what is needed with the Republicans, and that is the thing they fear the most.... because their whole ideology is smoke and mirrors.

I wrote my initial comment without reading much of the above commentary; the quantity was a bit intimidating. I'm glad to see Paul rethinking his stance on the tasering. But, the reason I'm back is one comment stood out: just a simple restating of the 1st amendment with the key phrase "Congress shall make no law" -- i.e. they just violated the Constitution, not just in principle but in fact. I like the idea of voting for Kucinich (I've been rethinking my own compromises); but shouldn't we be encouraging him to give up his futile identification with the Democans?

Okay, so the dems can condemn the practice of free speech, but they have been silent on the tasering of someone practicing free speech. I'm done with them. And Obama just sat it out--that's as good as they get?? Bowing to some limits on free speech, F*** 'em.

i support the true military heroes, the 40,000 plus who have refused to go back and remain compicent in this illigal genocide, by defecting. moveon.org were right on the mark. the whole bush admin. have betrayed us.

I am having a deja-vu moment regarding a vote by the Senate after a trusted general gave testimony. Ah yes, Petraeus reminds me of General Colin Powell (he of the MyLai whitewash) and Powell's serious sack of shit so stinkily spread before the UN General Assembly, to justify the BushWar with Iraq... or else the war would be an International War Crime and a Terrorist Act by the US. How did that turn out by the way? And now guess what? We got ourselves another sack of shit, only this time happily spread out for the fawning cretins in the US Senate, mostly the same suckers that fell for Powell the first go-round. MoveOn's ad meant to shame Petraeus into telling the truth and not betraying we the people with more crap from BushCo, and for the Senate to be more skeptical. It didn't work with these corporatist rats, neither on the general or on the Senate. Well, the dog-and-pony show is bought-and-paid-for, so rather than do something noble, the Senate votes to condemn FREE SPEECH! And it does nothing about the criminal war that it continues to fund with our money EVEN AFTER the General's LIES were exposed for the fraud they were, and I mean the Powell lies providing military-man cover for the Bush Crime Family BushWar. Same thing happening now, and the same Senate doing the same kow-tow to Bush. America is dreadful sick. MoveOn is just saying maybe America should see a good doctor. Keep on keeping on MoveOn. Thank you.

How far left are the democrats going to lean asks GARBO, are you kidding, compared to international standards the Democrats are right wing the rest are just plain fascists.

To have a democracy the whole political spectrum has to be represented and the USA doesn't come anywhere near to fullfilling that criteria. What you have in the USA is an Autocracy with very strong religious overtones. The religion keeps the rank and file in line along with the complete blackout of real news and it works. In recent years because of the extreme measures a stronger control mechanism is required so 9/11 and the threat of terrorists was introduced and the focal point of that terrorism is OBL who is in fact an ISI operative, that is why he is still at large.

Wake up people the USA has been hijacked.

It might be worthwhile to reform the full political process that continually brings out the worst in people. I am very concerned about the survival of our species. If we (humans) continually and naturally move towards fear and anger instead of the realm of love and understanding, we are going to annihilate ourselves fairly quickly now.

I'd be interested in a discussion about how we might somehow be able to participate effectively in our own evolution.

Our politicians are so bad there are no more adjectives left.

urthsong September 20th, 2007 11:37 pm

"I suspect that a few of those posting the idea of not voting or voting for tiny minority candidates are working for the Republican machine."

And I suspect that there are more than a few are shills for the Democrats trying to perpetuate the duopoly that has so ill served the country and the American voter.

Want real change in 2008? Vote third party. If the almost nine out of every ten voters that are mad at the Congress and the President would vote for what they really believe in then third party candidates could indeed win.

To expect change by continuing to vote for Republicans or Democrats is sheer folly.

One definition of insanity is to keep repeating the same actions over and over while each time expecting different results.

Lobo Gris

My initial reaction to this article and the 136 prior commentators was , hahahahahahahahahahahahah
hysterical laughter.
........then.....I saw, Canadian dollar and Ruppee gain against the greenback..........
ha huh hhh,,,,,,,oh
Move On has gained the attention of THE SENATE?????? the only semblance of a "peoples" action group with some umph behind it.............gets rebufed by THE SENATE???????
wasn't there a bill passed recently allowing the DISGUSTING decider to declare groups like Move On "terrorist?"
Oh dear.
I know people in India.......I'm ok.

The time for POLITE REASONED ARGUMENTS with OUR "LEADERSHIP" IS OVER!!!!!!!!!!!

I was angry at this waste of time and I wrote my senator:

Dear Senator Feinstein,

I read the news today that you voted "to repudiate an ad from MoveOn.org" regarding Gen. David Petraeus. I am very disappointed with your vote. Is this not America? Do we not still have rights as Americans to voice our dissent with this terrible war in Iraq? Sure David Petraeus is in the military, and we should support those who are risking their lives in Iraq, but we need Accountability!! Why should we not ask questions from a man who is shaping the war in Iraq to make sure what he is saying is accurate and the best policy for America?!!

Malthus2 September 20th, 2007 11:32 pm

"MoveOn just put a lot of good politicians in a tough place with this ad. Freedom of speech is good but so is common sense and decency."

That is exactly where a lot of our politicians need to be put. All of the broken campaign promises, and the public statements stating one thing while voting the opposite need to see the light of day. This ad and the subsequent vote and furor did just that. It let us know exactly where each of them stands.

We need more of that, not less. Kudos to Moveon.

Lobo Gris

meconopsis -

I think you misunderstood my rejoinder to your post.

I was being sarcastic -- not toward you, but about Bush's deception.

I think Bush's Executive Order is BS. Unconstitional. Fascistic.

Alembic

veive September 20th, 2007 7:48 pm

"Golly gee. Looks like Petraeus is real popular with our Senate. Unfortunately our Senate wouldn't get a 25% approval rating from the folks they're supposed to be representing. Bush and Congress are rated only slightly lower than whale feces"

Actually the latest poll out two days ago put the Congressional approval rating at 11%. It may be even lower now with the vote on the Moveon ad.

As for the vote, I am glad our Senators exercised their free speech right also, which is what it was because it was simply an expression of condemnation with no legislation attached to prevent Moveon from running ads, because it allows us to really find out where each of them stands. Vote accordingly when they come up for re-election.

Lobo Gris

Alembic- Understood! I just hope you are correct.....

Citizen65 -

I want to believe that you have decent personal values.

But some of the premises in your post say otherwise. You seem to be trying to exhort citizen loyalty to the US Armed forces at a time when those armed forces are obeying executive orders that are unconstitutional and in violation of international treaties the US has signed-on to.

The Nuremberg trial verdicts credibly established as global moral benchmark, that soldiers, whether grunts or generals, receving orders that contravene accepted principles of international standards of human decency, and their own national laws, have a moral obligation to disobey such orders.

You may be a fine American from an earlier generation, but you don't seem to understand the monstrousness and illegality of what your government is doing. Nor your moral obligation to see the present reality, and decisively oppose it w/o waffling or rote-patriotic sentimentality.

Democrats are such perennial suckers for Republican patriotism-baiting...always have, always will. This vote should be instructive for MoveOn - doesn't pay to kiss Democratic ass. How little it takes for Democrats to go nuts trying to juggle a perceived hot potato. Then there's Obama coming through as the phony he truly is.

meconopsis -

Bush's executive order was a little more subtly fascistic than your rendering.

It didn't declare such protest, etc. automatically illegal.

Instead it gave the Executive the power to declare such actions illegal in the name of National Security Determinations, etc.

If this neat little distinction hadn't been made in the EO, it wouldn't have passed even present-day Constitutional muster.

Try to understand: By breaking-down the Prez's new power into sequential procedural steps wholly within Executive determinations, our Constitutional rights remain fully assured.

Confused?

Well then, if you still don't understand, just OBEY. That'll do.

Move On Put your Ad money where your mouth is...here's the man! Help him get elected!
September 19, 2207
"When you consider that this war was based on lies, when you consider that Iraq did not attack the United States, that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction, it is an urgent matter of national morality to determine what the appropriate response is," said Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH).

"It is time for us to start talking about the legal responsibility of President Bush, Vice President Cheney and all the other war architects who built a case for the war based on lies.

"The very essence of America's credibility in the world is at stake. Our highest elected officials should be held accountable for actions that resulted in the deaths of more than a million innocent people, particularly when those deaths were based on demonstrable lies.

"It is very important that we start to ask serious questions about accountability. Just as no individual has the right to take another individual's life, no nation has the right to kill innocent people in another nation. No leader of the United States--in the name of the United States--should be permitted to wage aggressive war with impunity.

"I am preparing a resolution that requests the House meet in the Committee of the Whole to investigate the matter of civilian causalities as well as U.S. troop casualties that have occurred in Iraq. The resolution will recount that the war was based on lies. It will ask the House to consider action, including possibly preferring criminal charges against individuals who in the Administrative conduct of office were directly responsible for the war and the consequent loss of life.

"A grave injustice has been done to the people of Iraq and the people of the United States. More than one million lives have been lost. Families have been destroyed. Social networks have been ripped apart. We have had many soldiers killed and injured. This must be acknowledged.

"On a deeper level, the inquiry I am proposing relates to who we are as Americans and what we stand for. I refuse to believe that the American people—people of intelligence and good heart will not want to see justice done. There must be a measure of justice brought forward so that this deep stain on American history is removed," Kucinich concluded. "We must seek the truth, wherever it leads."

A true race to the bottom.

Of course this bunch has crouched behind barricades & beneath fighter-jets zooming over their heads while singing Gawd Blehhss Uhmurrica at every occasion the last seven years.

They have nothing to do with us whatsoever -- they have as much in common with us as the French or Russian aristocracy had with their victims.

I can't even be outraged -- I watch these bathetic bunch of crawling wretches with utter DISGUST. The devil wouldn't want them picking fleas out of his arsehole, no matter how much practice they've had with Chickenshit George and Lipless Dick.

Obama, you are only vp material.
and the Republican from Texas Cornyn is shameless in his ambition. He deserves to be driven from office.

All the rest: you need to know that repudiating the ad is repudiating voters. Just who do you listen to?

It's easy to separate the wheat from the chaff. Vote for liberal Dems, NEVER for conservative Dems. Support MoveOn!

This summer Pres. Bush signed into Law, a Presidential Directive, making it illegal to talk or march or protest against the Iraqi war, or do anything that would undermine the progresss of the war. (The White House-recent Presidential Directives.) He also signed one which bypasses the Congress and House, in the event of a "National Emergency" declared by him, giving bush, cheney, and the head of homeland security executive priviledge to impose Martial Law. The Pres used to have to have to have approval of the house and senate. You have no rights according to bush and his swine. Swine dont like sheep or cattle. They will heard them into pens for slaughter.

Even though the most basic problem here is that the wealthy media are intimidating all our politicians and thereby running the country, this IS a complex and difficult issue which informed & responsible adults can honorably disagree about. No one should expect the commanding officer of a major military offensive that was misconceived in the first place and isn't going well now to speak so publicly in an objective balanced way. His primary responsibility is to the troops he leads to be positive and optimistic. But in our democracy civilian politicians choose the missions and must bear the responsibility for faulty choices, not the troops that are attempting to carry out the civilian's orders. It was disgraceful of Bush to ask General Petraeus to do his dirty work on the Hill and it was disgraceful of the Democrats to agree to it. This violation of civilian control of the military just weakens both our military and our democracy. General Petraeus's report should have been taken in closed session where only his own personal reputation and career would be on the line - not in this very public forum where the entire relationship of the American people with its military was put at risk. We may now still be the unquestionably most powerful military force on the planet and in history but it is foolish to think that there won't be real and serious challenges ahead - or that we don't need to be careful about weakening through misuse and abuse the American people's opinion of, trust in, and support for our military. Challenges and missions will come and go. The military must remain - strong, trusted, honored, subordinate. And if we compromise our democracy with lies and abuses in the process of "defending" it, that also dishonors the military men and women we have asked to give the ultimate sacrifice.

I'd also like to suggest that there is an effective means of being heard in this wealthocracy that hasn't been tried yet and that is a week long general consumer spending moratorium or boycott by the 70% of us that want an end to the mistake in Iraq - like a general strike, but much less risky for workers - and pretty easy to pull off with a little planning: fill up your car & your frig the week before and stay home as much as possible and don't spend or talk to any business about spending any money for a week - maybe beginning the day the Senate starts hearings on the Iraq Supplemental - or the day the Senate is to vote on it - let an umbrella group like United for Peace and Justice pick the exact timing and them and us and MoveOn get the word out. Go ahead and pass the regular military appropriation bill for the next year, including the Iraq funds in it, but don't give Bush the supplemental funds for Iraq that he's asking for. Show the Democrats that 70% of the American people WANT THEM to vote against Iraq military appropriations and they may then be emboldened to REPRESENT US once again and take back control of our democracy from the wealthy media.

What do you all think?

A condemnation of dirty pool from the group that brought us The Swift Boat Slanderers? I don't think so.

This vote was no small matter.

It showed which of the senate democrats may be capable of recovering a smigeon of their street smarts and backbones, and which of them will apparently choose forever to remain dough-headed, wretched Quislings.

A symbolic resolution vomiting this much reeking hypocritical murderous bile should'be been easily boomeranged back on its perpetrators and used to make mincemeat of them.

But god help us: even the 'brave' democrats who impolitely voted against it, weren't brave enough to be THAT impolite...

There was no accusation in the question the ad posed, just a simple question.

But I digress.

I accuse the President of the United States, of betraying the people of the United States, by intentionally presenting reasons, known to be false, for an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.

I additionally accuse the President of the United States of various high crimes and misdemeanors, including but not limited to, aiding and abetting the willful murder of innocent, unarmed, men, women and children.

I accuse the President of the United States of committing multiple war crimes by instigating a criminal conspiracy to perform a clearly illegal 'preventive' war of aggression, and the illegally seizing of a sovereign nations natural resources.

I accuse the President of the United States, and the Congress of the United States, with betraying the will of the people, and bringing shame to the nation in the eyes of the world.

Stuff like this that will help hand both houses over to the repugs big time. The Dems seem to be going out of their way to piss off their base big time. So much so that much of them will now all but stay home on election day.

Nice going dems.

When did "condemnatation" become a legislative act. Does this ad now go to a special leislative hell and suffer the flames of eternal torment? What are the legal results of "condemning" an ad. Will they also be swiftboating the ad.. or will that be the responsibility of other political ad -makers.

Thank you Move On for representing me. My " elected representatives " can't seem to get a grip on what doing the right thing could possibly mean. As many times as I've tried to give 'em a clue, they just refuse to get it. Being polite and correct doesn't fase 'em in the least. Maybe we have to just go for it your way and stop pulling our punches. Guess they think anyone who doesn't have their head up their ass is leftist, guess if they can live like that they think we all could survive in a polluted world.
I'd rather keep my head up high. PEACE!

Is it obvious yet that the Dems are completely and utterly worthless!? Could they care any less for our troops' lives and Iraqi lives that are lost everyday for nothing more than to line the pockets of greedy, lying war criminals! Four years of this crap and these bloody jokers are voting to condemn a freakin' TV commerical?!

Amazing, just amazing

Better not talk about a person with this reputation.....

General Petraeus was in charge of the Security Transition Command at the time that the Iraqi procurement budget of $1.2bn was stolen. "It is possibly one of the largest thefts in history," Iraq's Finance Minister, Ali Allawi, said. "Huge amounts of money disappeared. In return we got nothing but scraps of metal."
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/13/3814/

The man wants to run for president someday!

Kind of shows the DSCC argument that electing more Democrats fixes everything is utter BS. The reality is that Bush is not a lame duck and gets everything he wants despite Democratic control of both Houses of Congress because there is bi-partisan support for the war and the trampling on civil liberties. Remember the big hoopla over Tester, Webb, Casey, Cardin and McCaskill? The have voted the same way those whom they defeated would have voted on opposing the troops by funding the surge and most of them voted for the Trample Civil Liberties Act 2. Now this.

Can anyone tell me the names of Republicans who voted for a resolution to condemn the Swift Boat ads? Or who voted to condemn the smear campaign against Max Cleland? WAS there even such a resolution? Shame on everyone who got scared into voting for this one. It is really a bad day for the Dems when Billary has more male intestinal fortitude than 27 of her colleagues.

I wrote the following to Diane Feinstein who voted in favor of the resolution:

I am writing to express my dismay with your recent vote to "condemn" the speech of the public policy organization Moveon.org. In my opinion, it is neither the United States Senate's responsibility nor prerogative to "condemn" the speech of any individual or organization.

In spending time and energy on such a vote, what Constitutional duty is the Senate fulfilling? Clearly, according to Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution, the Senate has no enumerated power to judge the speech of United States citizens. Are taxpayers really expected to pay the salaries of Senators so that they might opine on the speech of various individuals and organizations?

As they say in the workplace, don't do personal business on company time. Your opinion may be valued by some, and you have a legitimate right to express it on your own time; but since when is it the business of the Government of the United States to express opinions on American citizens' speech?

Regardless of your personal opinion of Moveon.org's ad concerning General Petraeus, your official duty as a United States Senator is to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, no more, no less. You can reasonably be accused of neglecting and abusing your duty by using your office to engage in Constitutionally irrelevant acts such as Senate Resolution 315.

Your timely response is awaited and appreciated.

Sincerely,

David Powell

Support our troops, stop the war!

No one is suffering more now, America, than your troops; don't turn your back on them.

Be brave America; be strong; be free.
America's leaders have shamed themselves, but the American people have not.
The world is counting on you, America, to do what is right.

America's leaders have shamed themselves, but the American people have not.
America's leaders call their citizens, 'cowards'.
Don't lose heart America.

America's leaders have shamed themselves, but the American people have not.
America's leaders laugh at their citizens and the world.
Hold on America, the world needs you now more than ever.

America's leaders have shamed themselves, but the American people have not.
America's leaders threaten new acts of shame.
Love your country and be courageous, America; stand by her.

Be brave America; be strong; be free.
America's leaders have shamed themselves, but the American people have not.
The world is counting on you, America, to do what is right.

Since when is our military a sacred cow? And since when is free speech denied, and our opinions slandered? I'll tell you when. When we (yes, WE) stood back and watched in horror -- immobilized -- as the rightwing Christian evangelical crazies headed by the Pat Robertsons, Newt Gingriches, Tom Delays, et al., began to sow the seeds of hate among their base, and made them the most powerful interest group this country has ever seen.

And you wonder why our spineless Democrats don't speak out? They, too, are cowed by these people and their tactics. All of us are, if truth be told. Over the last 10 years or so, we have been made to feel ashamed by this authoritarian group of religious demagogues to scream to the world that we are LIBERALS and PROUD of it! WHY?

Because they have equated our liberal thinking with anti-Americanism, and made most Americans think this is so. Their pitch has been extremely effective. They are well-organized and well-financed. They have denigrated us, dismissed us, and truly have set out to destroy us. WE are their enemy, make no mistake. They are loud, bullying, and have captured the attention of the media, whether it be FOX or the rest. They are getting the positive attention; we, on the other hand, can only cower, and our protests, when we make them, go largely unnoticed by a corporate-bought media.

And when we do protest, as did MoveOn in the Petreaus ad, it's more of the same. The liberal left questions the military, and dares to speak out, the neocon warcry is "Shame on the Liberals." And the country listens! Including those Democratic senators who are intimidated by these bullies' propaganda because they are concerned "the base" won't agree. Nonsense! There are way more of us than them. But what do we do? Nothing, but bitch to each other on these pages.

I have been a liberal and a Democrat for all my 56 years. In no time of my life have I ever been more frightened by the direction this country is taking. I am ashamed of our Democrats in Congress (by and large...not all of them), but I fear that they don't have the stomach to take on this group of madmen.

I simply don't know what we should do. It is maddening, to say the least. It seems as though our freedoms have been so eroded, and our "free" press so co-opted, that unless someone like Kucinich (or even Edwards, who, at this point, is looking damn good to me),gets elected, we are done. And by the way, watch out for the empty suit, Fred Thompson. He is the next perfect puppet of the right-wing nut jobs.

I have just finished reading John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience." If you really want to know how this all happened to us, read this book. You will find yourself nodding in agreement, and saying, "So that's why they are the way they are...and the way we are."

I feel MoveOn blew it by displaying this ad. Sure we got debate, but it just gave cannon fodder to the Right wingers who seem to be all to good at making mountains out of molehills. The conversation shifted from exit strategy to moveon's play on words. It seems the critisism could have been more constructive. One flip thought though...now many more people know MoveOn exists where before they didn't!

MoveOn should start working on getting ballot access in all 50 states. And start identifying progressive, solidly anti-war candidates to run in the primaries against the incumbents who show themselves consistently to be Republicans in Democrats clothing.

If you want the Republican Party to keep control, just don't vote for the Democrats. You will get your wish. I know. It's a mess. But the computers are still being rigged. Millions more votes will be suppressed. There must be a sufficiently large difference in the votes to show up the hacking. I strongly suggest that we take a whole lot more interest in our primaries where new progressive blood could replace the Democratic jerks who have forgotten what America and our Constitution are all about. I recently rejoined the Democratic Party (I'd been registered Green for nearly seven years.) because I want a meaningful vote in the primary. I suspect that a few of those posting the idea of not voting or voting for tiny minority candidates are working for the Republican machine. I don't mean to insult anybody as I full well understand the frustration and rage. But we've got to face the reality of one party that is a total loss and the other party with the possibility of redemption by strong, active local constituencies.

It was stupid politics on the part of MoveOn.org to try to make a villain out of Petraeus. He is just a general doing his job. Bush is the guilty one who has betrayed us and the troops by this insane war. I belong to MoveOn and can forgive them. We are all human after all and make mistakes. MoveOn just put a lot of good politicians in a tough place with this ad. Freedom of speech is good but so is common sense and decency.

Today's letter to the DNC website:

I will be unsubscribing soon. All donations will be made through Moveon.org and all communications from you can come from them as well. I am sick of the spineless Democrats in the Senate condemning free speech; allowing this war to continue; allowing this president to stay in office lying with every word; the dismembering of the Constitution they swore to uphold, God, I could go on forever. Oh yeah, taking away my vote in Florida in the primary elections. In short, YOU S**K!

Support Dennis Kucinich for president,vote out all the democrats and republicans that support the terrorist war against the people of Iraq.
There are few words to waste on the political circus,the corporate news media,our electronic controlled elections, the signs are all around us of what America has become,controlled Supreme court,patriot acts,the police are waiting,the prisons are ready for all the economic slaves living from paycheck to paycheck, wow do we still have time to turn this country around?-

time to put your two bits where your mouth is.. join MoveOn.org

Twenty-two Democrats voted for this? Twenty-two?

I quit Moveon.org when its leaders denied the majority of members' desire that the organization stand for impeachment of Bush and Cheney. I will not rejoin it unless impeachment is put back on the table.

But I admire greatly the full-page ad that underscores the betrayal of Gen. Petraeus--betrayal of not only the troops who pay the price he and Bush command they pay, but of the truth--a truth Alan Greenspan spoke earlier this week.

This war is about oil, and all the blood that's flowed so far is only helping line the pockets of Bush, Cheney, Rice, and their Neocon buddies. The rich and powerful get richer, the weak and poor die.

Many of the 22 Democrats who voted in favor of the resolution condemning Moveon.org probably receive large donations from private contractor firms operating in Iraq. That's the way the game is played in D. C.

The vote bodes ill for those of us who entertain hopes that the Democrats will show some spine on the upcoming vote to continue funding for the occupation of Iraq.

What would Thomas Jefferson advise, I wonder?

--a Vietnam War vet and member, Veterans for Peace

I suppose Benedict Arnold was a great American too because he served in the military

Anyway these are the names of the senators who did not condemn a newspaper ad by Move.On

Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)

Not Voting - 3
Biden (D-DE)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)

citizen 1

The basis for the US government is corrupt. The candidates for the presidency will have to solicit ( yes like a prostitute) ONE BILLION DOLLARS each for their political campaigns.

So if your politician is not telling the truth and is not being courageous..well the system is set up for the cowards to win. If a politican is honest he will alienate voters and lose contributions and will not get elected.

Still we have to work with what we have and the above names are the best we have now imo.

I'm still waiting to hear why impeachment was never a part of the discourse! Are only republicans (especially the extreme conservatives) the only "patriots" allowed to speak up in this country? McCain's desire for the removal of Moveon to move off is akin to telling all the antiwar protesters to leave this country. The republic (not a democracy!) was founded on the ideal of freedom of speech and acceptance of differing views but we seem to have lost sight of that in the fervour created since 9/11. That is a sad commentary on the state of our nation. And aren't we still in Korea?

Hey, why stop there? Why not have an amendment that doesn't allow people to attack or criticize men & women in uniform? I'm sure that Fox News would jump on the band wagon to restrict free speech in this manner. Slowly, but surely we all know they want to restrict free speech, which will effectively, in their mind destroy the "liberal media". Viva la fascisma Americana!

The tyranny of etiquette strikes: if you want to criticize the violent deaths of around a million Iraqis caused by US (plus soon 4 000 US soldiers), be polite. Or else you're not "decent". To be complicit in the violent death of a million ordinary people (as all US citizens in principle are) is not indecent. It's "bad form" to refer effectfully to bad acts by US.

Toe the line – the line defined by US.

In Naomi Wolf's excellent article "Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps", step 5 "Harass citizens' groups" applies to this case. Step 9 "Dissent equals treason" also fits.

For more, read Wolf's new book "The end of America: A Letter of Warning To A Young Patriot".

*

At least, General Petraeus is now forever branded with "GENERAL BETRAY US". The Senate vote reinforces that. Neat.

Paul, yes yes, I know. I got a little carried away at first, the numbers didn't sink in at first but I still believe any senator voting to "condemn" an ad that attacks a tool of the worst president in American history is one too many.

The 25 who didn't vote to condemn should have first shouted out "why are we wasting time on this nonsense?" Regardless, bravo to them.

Still, I have given up on the Democrats. There is too little difference between them and the Republicans. The Democrats are controlled by the war-mongering corporations. Try to get more progressive democrats elected and the corporatists and the media will destroy them; unless there was a way to destroy the cancer that is the DNC and usher in a new era of a democratic party supported by the progressive grass roots. If someone can show me how it can be done, I will start supporting the Democrats again.

Marta, thank you for "But it's all good. Now, we all know who is a Republican in drag, and fight against their reelection".

MoveOn should keep on punching and come back with an ad identifying our "Republican's in Drag" (RID?) to be replaced by liberals with a backbone in the next election cycle.

Get the broom!

I'm writing a letter to my Senator Feinstein D-CA and tell her how ashamed I am of her for joining in this silly act. Where were the Senators when Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld were telling lies to the American public about WMD's? I think they forgot about the SwiftBoat ad's that were sponsored by the repugs. I watched Keith Olberman tonight and all I can say is "SAY IT AGAIN KEITH".

I am really heartened by all the previous comments listed here. The people truly are picking up the scent of this whole smelly affair with Petraeus. Kudos to Move On and to all the remaining "human beings" still working diligently in the U.S. Congress. Now, can someone explain to me why Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel were not invited to participate in the recent Iowa debates? I have a feeling that, because of this deliberate action, these gentlemen SHOULD be our choices for Pres and Vice-Pres in 2008!! Obviously, the "powers that be" are not smiling down upon them because they are too honest and dedicated to the will of the people. Did you all know that the very same Mike Gravel helped Daniel Ellsberg deliver the Pentagon papers to the press during Nixon's Watergate fiasco? All the more reason to support them, correct? So take heed, folks!! Keep your eyes and ears open to what's happening in our so-called democracy today!!!

I will be writing Senator Kohl a letter.

Pathetic vote on his part.

And how about that Obama? Hey, all you Obamaniacs, wake up!

peaceistruth:

And abandon the 25 Democrats who had the courage to vote against the resolution? Now what purpose would that serve? The goal should be 26, 27, 28, 29, 30...51....60.

Support the 25. Too bad they're not in a different party though. They give undue credibility to the remainder.

Free speech is free speech. The only constraint I would place on "free speech" is when it's funded for a particular political end. This "end" is not political. It concerns US policy, one that is killing millions of people, and causing undo hardship to many millions more.

Biden said two nights ago (in essence, not exact quote) that "what you heard is frustration. These people [MoveOn] are frustrated and angry. I may not agree with what they said or how they said it, but I understand why they said it. They're frustrated, we're all frustrated about this war and want to get it over with and bring the troops home as quickly as possible."

Free speech is free speech. Period.

Hagel said (again in essence) "it was shameful for the Administration to put a general in front to explain their policy. It was shameful, deceitful, and spineless of them to do that."

Hagel was exercising his free speech.