In Rudy's fantasy world Betrayus may be "An American General who is putting his life at risk". In reality Betrayus is brown nosing all of the people to assure a lucrative retirement that will get him at least a lucrative job with a "defense" contractor, will probably get him a lucrative book deal, and may even result in fullfilling his dream of becoming president.

The standard practice for the Bush team and some cohorts in congress has been to brand those who disagree or question their policies as unpatriotic, and even traitorous. They continue these intimidating ssaults against those who question the logic of continuing the course in Iraq. Now that the opposition has fired back with some accusations (albeit minor by comparison)--they cry foul.

One case in point is the unprecedented character assassinations against Senator Max Cleland, a decorated triple amputee Viet Vet with an outstanding senate record. These assaults were in response to Mr Cleland's sponsorship of an investigation into the causes of 9/11, which was opposed by Bush. Among other things, they displayed his picture with Bin Laden and falsely demeaned his war record, even saying it was his fault for stepping on the mine. Sadly, these tactics succeeded in unseating Senator Cleland by a person who avoided military service and was compatible to Bush's secretive policies. Despite its impact and importance, this deceptive assault was hardly covered by the mainstream media. No republican has even expressed regret for this outrage.

The most frightening aspect of these manipulative character assassinations is not they are used, not their severity or deception--but that they have worked.

Blame falls on apathetic & gullible voters who succumb to such rhetoric after helping plant this arrogant zealot in office, and our legislators who have defaulted their duties by allowing themselves to be intimidated into permitting such dangerous impairments to our democracy.

The louder they yell is an indication of the effectiveness of the tactic.

Yeah, Hagel's words were really damning for the Petraeus posturing. I wrote a similar article a couple of days ago on my New Hampshire Primary blog. Check it out.
http://www.threeqblog.com

This is the same old default to "Support the troops". It's such BS. If the people really supported the troops the war would have been over long ago. Our government doesn't care anything about the troops. It's about money only.
THEIR PLAN IS TO KEEP THE NATION DIVIDED.
As long as the nation stays divided they can continue to reap the war profits, violate people's rights, and subvert the Constitution.
While we argue about soldiers, OJ, Britney, Iraq, Iran, and hypocritical senators, our nation is being stolen from us.
We've got to find a way to come together as Americans. I sincerely hope we can somehow break this spell of Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Liberals, Conservatives and Progressives. We can only win back our country as a team; as Americans. We can't do it divided.

All this Fascist badmouthing finally convinced me to send some money to www.moveon.org

"GOP Goes Crazy"

It is really a state of being for the GOP

"With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power. "
Henry A. Wallace

The actions of the GOP are such that one is not out of line calling it the Fascist Party.

Betrayus may be "An American General who is putting his life at risk".

It seems that this American General is putting his soldiers at risk with a mission that is illegal.

To be fair, I'll say I thought the ad was kind of dumb.

"General Petreus or General Betray Us?"

Kind of childish, isn't it?

A simpler, more elegant way of expressing the same message (and avoiding the backlash) would have been to adopt a more mature slogan:

"Will Gen Petreus betray us?"

Moveon.org's jeering shcoolyard taunt just makes them look foolish, and I feel it's a waste trying to defend them from the Republican noise machine. Actually, both sides look pretty silly over this...Moveon for commissioning the dumb ad, and the Republicans for whining about it so much.

Memo to Moveon: next time you feel like plunking some serious change down on an effective (and non self-destructive) ad, give me a call. I'll do a better a job at half the price.

youngturk39,

I have to agree. Whether the withering fire in response to the ad was really deserved or not, it must have been expected. And if Moveon management has reason to know their ads will go through such highly critical analyses and any weaknesses or flaws will be magnified a thousandfold, it is grossly negligent on their part not to run such proposed ads through several rounds with competent analysts on their side beforehand to scrub them clean and preclude them from becoming easy targets.

"The actions of the GOP are such that one is not out of line calling it the Fascist Party"

McCain, having chuckled about bombing Iran, calls for the deportation of citizens for very loudly criticizing an army officer, as the little Eichmanns everywhere shout that "freedom isn't free" and that we owe our freedom to people wearing uniforms. Absolutely it's fascism.

"it is grossly negligent on their part not to run such proposed ads through several rounds with competent analysts on their side beforehand to scrub them clean and preclude them from becoming easy targets."

Part of the point of agitation is to MAKE ONESELF A TARGET. And 'scrubbing a message clean' of objectionable content renders it politically worthless. In fact, it effectively demonstrated that the rightwing screamers are people who OPPOSE the principles of the primacy of civilian authority over the military & who hate the very idea of freedom of speech.

"Moveon.org's jeering shcoolyard taunt just makes them look foolish, and I feel it's a waste trying to defend them from the Republican noise machine"

One bunch says "CODEPINK makes us look foolish"; another, that ANSWER does; yet another, that MoveOn does, and others, that Stephanie Miller's show is too juvenile & not political enough.

These complaints mainly come from the Dead Dog Democratic camp (tho' not exclusively), especially from the political consultants' cult whose members run the show. "Oh! that makes my candidate look bad -- I have to make them/us look more important!"

Never allow anyone to question the Military...that's what lead to the demise of the Nazis....WE ALL MUST BE "GOOD GERMANS"

McCain doesn't think too highly of the First Amendment, does he?

That cheap slogan was kind of the point, I'm sure. They knew it'd make a great sound byte and attract attention and get people talking about it. I don't think they really cared whether the attention was negative or positive.
They've elevated Moveon and gotten themselves a round or two on the cable news circuit, which I'm sure they see as a victory.

"McCain doesn't think too highly of the First Amendment, does he?"

We can have all the freedom we want after we have security. And to question the actions, motives, lawfulness, or effectiveness of anyone in the security apparatus makes us less secure. The only way to enjoy the First Amendment is never to use it. 'Freedom' is a fetish to be 'defended', an abstraction so immensely sacred that to act as if one were free without being dominated by its protectors is to defile freedom. Thus to be free without the assistance of the priesthood of soldiers & generals is to be against freedom, therefore, to be "with the tuhrrorists".

I hate McCain's Bullshit "No Surrender" blather.

No one is asking anyone to surrender. Who exactly would McCain surrender to?

We want the USA to admit they invaded on false pretenses, apoligize, pay reparations, and get the fuck out.

that is not surrender...surrender is when you throw down your weapons, and turn yourself over to the opposition.

The parallels between HITLER'S Germany and Bu$hCo Fascist America are striking…The use of patriotism, the use of religion, the use of propagandized Ultra Right Wing echo chambers like FOX, the use of National Symbols to promote nationalistic patriotism, using Military Generals to support obviously political agenda.....

If you look closely at the REAL undercurrents the list is becoming longer and longer....The good Germans were propagandized and/or pacified and/or too frightened and/or intimidated to protest...Sounds familiar!

Mythologist Joseph Campbell, Hindu and Buddhist precepts in general have interesting readings on the dangers and pitfalls of attachment. They've said for centuries that one can become attached to mental constructs or forms such that they become barriers to genuine realization. It's a form of mental idolatry in which the symbol becomes more important than what it stands for (e.g. flag-burning debate).

But it's clear that McCain is doing it deliberately. Like the casualty of religion before it, the First Amendment is merely something to which lip-service must be paid. To be genuine with it is out of the question. It's true that we're not a democracy -- technically we're a Constitutional Republic. But it seems to be more Republic than Constitutional these days.

These people are against democracy. They represent a form of elitist hegemony, a sort of modern-day aristocracy where the wealthy enjoy socialism funded by everyone else, and the non-wealthy toil in a sort Corporatism-Fascism.

Time and again, the Republican Party asks Americans to "trust us", in spite of the incredible weight of evidence that shows they do not deserve our trust.

What these people are really against is democracy. They don't want the little people interfering in their plans, taking their toy tanks away.

John McCain is quite blunt about it. Notice, he doesn't say "I think MoveOn.org is despicable and unpatriotic, but they have a right to voice their opinion."

Instead, he says they should be booted out of the country.

Contempt for democracy, folks. Plain and simple. And totally unsurprising. The sad thing is that many conservatives agree that democracy would be a nightmare and that the will of anyone who disagrees -- be they of the wrong skin color, social class, religion, sexual orientation -- should be banished, exterminated, marginalized.

The Republican Party is not a party that exists within the framework of a democratic system of government.

Interesting how Petraeus has moved up the ranks so quickly when I understand he has never been in combat. How can you have a chest full of medals when you've never been in combat?

Arianna, I did not like the ad either. But for completely different reasons. 1) It was juvenile. 2) It smacked of Karl Rove type tactics. 3) It pissed off moderate "swing voters" that we desperately need for next years election. 4) It made it appear that Petraeus had the option of going against his Commander in Chief.

and most of all...5) That ad space could have been used to educate the American public.

Do they realize;
That the majority party in the glorious new Iraqi government is "The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq"?
That Al Sadr, a terrorist and avowed enemy of the U.S., controls 32 votes, the margin needed to keep Maliki in power?
That we are now training Sunni militiamen to defend themselves against Iraqi government backed Shiite militias, putting us in a war, by proxy, against the Iraqi government?
That we are working on an amnesty program for those Sunnis that includes amnesty for killing U.S. forces in the past?

These are just a few of the things that most Americans are ignorant of concerning the Iraq War. And thanks to MoveOn's waste of ad space, they will remain that way.

If we should be drilling anyone, it should be the Democrats on those panels that failed to address any of those points. All they did, in my opinion, was throw softballs to Petraeus and Crocker.

It's a damn shame when the most telling question is asked by John Warner.

Dichterfreund,

There is a large and easily discernible difference between scrubbing an ad to preclude the possibility the sponsoring organization will appear juvenile and unprofessional and scrubbing it to remove its abrasive and sharp character. Moveon cannot adopt the style of Fox News or other right-wing echo chamber demagogic entities if it hopes to achieve its objectives. The right's propaganda is designed to appeal to the uneducated and the simple-minded and their attacks are by nature juvenile. The appropriate posture of the left is to attempt to inspire within the public a deeper understanding of the democratic processes at work so that they may understand the illegitimacy of the right's arguments. Moveon plays on Rove's/Murdoch's homefield by putting on an ad with unsophisticated and juvenile elements that makes it easy for the right to frame it in a manner so that most of the public will dismiss it out of hand.

On the other hand, that is not to justify Kerry or others who aid the right in attacking the ad to the press. Democrats and progressives should keep such attacks to themselves, and learn from the ad's perceived vulnerabilities.

kivals

"Moveon cannot adopt the style of Fox News or other right-wing echo chamber demagogic entities if it hopes to achieve its objectives. The right's propaganda is designed to appeal to the uneducated and the simple-minded and their attacks are by nature juvenile."

I think that George Lakoff's recommendation about 'framing' lends itself to such an interpretation -- if your political party is being trounced by the other because they have seized and framed the issues, you must use their tactics to reverse the conversation.

I agree with you that a deeper understanding of the democtraic process would be desirable -- but repeated attempts to have the conversation on this level have been crushed and oppressed. MoveOn's tactic is to turn the tools of the aggressor against the aggressor -- and in this case, it seems to have at least brought their accusations into the public discourse.

Is this the "appropriate posture" for progressives? I think that's a hard question to answer. I have trouble with Lakoff's doctrine because I think that it is inherently manipulative, and I believe that we can trust average Americans to understand democracy, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. However, the Right's echo chamber is so powerful that any attempt to oppose it with what I would consider reasonable discourse may simply be lost in the "noise." Maybe disrespectful mocking is the only way to get into the conversation.

As I was telling my friend, Petraus deserves to be mocked. He deserves social censure because he has betrayed the oaths he himself took.

TextGuru,

I have no argument with MoveOn about reframing the issue. It just seems that an opportunity may be missed to use the high ground to advantage. The right has consistently driven the dialogue to lower and lower depths but at some point that has to backfire. It did in the Schiavo case and I believe that now the obvious puerility of the right's rhetoric with regard to the war is wearing thin. You don't want to descend to their level just when much of the public is ready to consider a more sophisticated approach to the issues. I thought more focus on the parallels with Westmoreland would have been more appropriate.

Of course so much of this is guesswork. We cannot predict very well how any approach will work in the end. However, we should have a fair appreciation by now how the right and its stooges in the corporate media will respond to attacks on Bush and his policies and people.

Let the right throw a hissy fit.

We lend them credibility by giving it more press.

Hilary's answer to it by re directing attention to Bush's failures was spot on.

Re direct, re frame the debate.

This is America- we can pay for a advertisment-

what about the mud at Max Cleland or the swiftboating of a purple heart veteran John kerry that changed the regime to continue the Bush incompetence- It really had consequences.

Besides, Petraeus was not sworn in to testify. He said that he was submitting testimony which he had not vetted with the White House yet we know he talked to them daily.

What about Petraeus saying his son who is in Fort Benning is serving in Iraq next. Prince Charles could not serve - who would want to be his bunkmate? What if Petraeus son is kidnapped? Did petreaus think of that? If not, is he thinking stategy? NY Times reported that Sheik Abu Risha who was killed in Ramadi the same day that Bush gave his speech. Petreaus assured the nation that Ramadi was safe. NYTimes reported that the murder was a complete surprise to the allied forces. How much are they thinking around corners- the enemy had planned the attack very complete the NYTimes reported. maybe Petraeus was just saying that about his son to cheerlead other sons to come on over ?

I can't believe people are upset by the "betray us" play on words. Like the tasered student, people are saying "play nice" or "you might upset the swing voters" or "take the high ground." Holy frickin hell, people, we are talking about an illegal war--an invasion of a country and the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, not to mention the death and maiming of our troops. Play nice? High ground? There is no frickin high ground. There is just the bald truth. This man is lying through his teeth and being a political patsy and is BETRAYING US as Colin Powell BETRAYED US before the UN. When the U.S. went to war, they made sure that Picasso's Guernico was covered up with a sheet at the UN when they announced their dirty deed--they wanted to shut up that artist and his picture that showed the deaths of those people in that little village when the Nazi's bombed in support of Franco. High ground my ass. Quit with your middle-class bullshit. John McCain is a whore. He may have been permanently injured in the head when a prisoner of war in Vietnam, and he deserves a nice military pension, but he harbors a resentment about that--thinking that his "cause" could have been won if only some politicians had "stayed the course." How would McCain have known if the "war" in Vietnam were won or not? They kept spouting that domino crap to us back then--claiming that all of Asia would go Commie if Vietnam went--Vietnam went and the whole of Asia didn't go Commie.

Need I remind you that we have an administration that has sanctioned torture, whisked people off to concentration camps, got other governments to torture prisoners for us, have signed into existence laws providing for relocation camps for Americans (read dissenters) and you are wondering if someone might be offended by "General Betray Us". Get a friggin clue. You should shout it down and dirty every chance you get. Hey, I didn't even bring up their dirty deeds on 9/11......but don't offend. Play nice. Don't be like Rove. No one is suggesting that we turn into murderous manicas like Rove and Co. We are simply saying, tell the truth in all of its ugliness. You can't put icing on war and death and torture, anyway you serve it up, it stinks to high heaven.

How can a party that wallows in depravity and treason have any credibility when it accuses others of being immoral and unpatriotic?

I would like to redirect you to a blog where an anti war / pro war debate is occuring:-

http://www.tvweek.com/blogs/james-hibberd/2007/09/sally_field_at_the_emmys.php

At least it isnt preaching to the choir ...

Paul Bramscher September 18th, 2007 3:02 pm

"Mythologist Joseph Campbell,..(and others)....have said for centuries that one can become attached to mental constructs or forms such that they become barriers to genuine realization. It's a form of mental idolatry in which the symbol becomes more important than what it stands for (e.g. flag-burning debate)."

Well, Paul, just take a look at all those colorful military ornaments on the General's jacket. What fearful and limited five-sensory human being wouldn't be impressed with all those boy scout symbols? Don't most little boys (and some girls) align themselves with this ostentatious display of what they consider accomplishment, without giving any thought to how these symbols of rank were achieved?

Genuine realization requires an awareness of our thoughts and emotions which enable us to question why we idolize these physical symbols and the people who wear them.

Why would anyone in their right mind want to reward a military officer who inflicts pain, suffering and death on others for the sake of external power?

Authentic power comes from within and no military jacket laced with so-called patriotic symbols will change that.

MoveOn grabs some headlines. Strange isn't it? The denominator is tabloid stupidity, what did Moveon say about funding our Iraq misadventure ("we're ok with it") How does MoveOn feel about an immediate withdrawal? ("we don't support swift withdrawal")
MoveOn is a problem, like the Washington Post is a problem, 2002 was a great year to plan and go to war in Iraq in 2003. Neither had much to say against a full scale colonial expedition.
Moveon should instead be calling for a war crimes tribunal for Senator Biden, a death enabler. (after the war crimes tribunals of Petraeus, Rummy, et al.)
Where was this group in questioning of those in authority, or using too much bluntness, during the war machines saber rattle up to, during and now after 4+ years of illegality? A tabloid whimper, because they are a part of the war machine.

To HolyMoly,

Your point is well taken. This country is going down the shitter fast. We need to do something damn serious to get our government and our country back. Isn't that what the people did about 250 years ago - a little thing called the Revolutinary War? People got so fed up with KING GEORGE that they took some serious action! And we're better off for it.

The message behind MoveOn's ad may very well be accurate. But honestly it seemed to me to be aimed at an audience of teenagers. It did grab attention, but no intelligent person is going to respect that sort of prank. They could have done better.

Call Petreaus's bosses to testify immediately. Why the hell are we listening to anyone but the top brass?

Because they all, maybe, want out of Iraq ASAP? Hey, here's another idea - let's ask them!

Gail,

Quite true.

But there's a deeper fetishism or idolatry than object->mental construct. That one is easily recognized by most people because it involves a crass physical totem or fetish.

The more worrisome is the mental construct->mental construct sort, in which one construct becomes a fetishized/symbolic reference or pointer for another, and there exists great difference between the two in practice. This is undoubtedly the root cause of cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, and a whole host of illogic the right/up have managed to foster on the left/down.

Propaganda, at its core, is about symbol reshuffling. By "symbol" it's not just things like flags or medals. But also ideas and values -- and other ideas and values that they conjure up.

You can do some amazing experiments with people just on words. In many camps, the word "socialism" has been demonized. "Capitalism" is beyond question. They're programmed to generate automatic responses. But if you dart around linguistically, and discuss qualities rather than words which have been pre-programmed, you can get a very high agreement rate with the audience. They're working with a construct->construct set which has been deliberately mismatched, so you need to go in the back door.

Simonhhh @ 2:48pm:
"The parallels between HITLER'S Germany and Bu$hCo Fascist America are striking. The use of patriotism, the use of religion, the use of propagandized Ultra Right Wing echo chambers like FOX, the use of National Symbols to promote nationalistic patriotism, using Military Generals to support obviously political agenda..."

~ Yes, that's all very well, Simonhhh, ~but OMG!! ::: I just HOPE that Janet Jackson won't try to bring Amerika to her knees again by exposing her *BREAST* at a major sports event? -That could mean the end of civilisation as we know it, Jim!
;)

Well said Gail, @ 8:15pm.

Chazbo @ 3:22pm:
"Interesting how Petraeus has moved up the ranks so quickly when I understand he has never been in combat. How can you have a chest full of medals when you've never been in combat?"

~ Answer: I believe one can buy them from *War-Toys-R-Us* chazbo. -Or ask at your local army recruitment center for a set?
They come in various colors, shapes and sizes, some ideally suited for daytime wear at the golf club, or there's others which you can pin to your pyjamas for parading around your bedroom at night, - trying to impress your goldfish as to your patriotic machismo and willingness to poke small children in the eye with a pointed stick...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Blessed are the Peacemakers..."

-Although though they do not get awarded meaningless metal-medal trinkets, (on Earth) -there are higher rewards for their service to humanity elsewhere.
Christ and Buddha had not one medal to share between them. They wore their honor on the *inside* -in their hearts- where it really counts.

Anyone with a glimmer of a brain knows the whole interview was staged from beginning to end. Petraeus is a hand-picked General of George's. The man isn't going to tell the truth under any circumstances. If he did he would be out the door with all the other General's who went before him. So what are the GOP so mad about???? Their lies are no longer working??? I quit listening to a word they had to say 20 years ago! That's when I started to vote intelligently.

Well-spoken as always Arianna...

What I would like to ask of those people like Bush, Guliani and the neo-conservative talk show hosts... is "Where was this respect for patriotism and honor of all the OTHER generals that have spoken out in the past five years?"

General Scowcroft, who said invading Iraq was a bad idea and would be certain to DIVERT us for some indefinite period from our WAR ON TERRORISM.

General Shinseki, who said the invasion of Iraq would require 400,000 soldiers to do the job correctly...

General Zinni, who said "Iraq was the wrong war at the wrong time - with the wrong strategy"...

General John Abazaid who said "Our doctrine is not right. It's just not right. I mean, there are so many things that are out there that aren't right in the way that we operate for this war. And there are a lot of systems that are wrong out there that we had better fix if we're going to beat this enemy."

... or General Schwartzkopf, General Sheehan, General Swannick, General Clark and all of the others who have spoken out against the administration's orchestration of the Iraq fiasco?

Bush and Guliani have built their political futures on a foundation of gravestones... first the gravestones of the 9-11 victims, and now the gravestones of nearly 4000 of our soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

General Patraeus is helping to prop up Bush's determined goal of establishing a beachhead in the middle of a bitter and hostile land... a goal that has proven to be a fool's mission... and they are doing it with the support of flag-waving neo-con fools in the media...

Any true American should stand up and tell them NO!

So the GOP goes crazy over news ad, well hell, I thought they already were crazy.

Sure would like to see Petraeus debate Adam Kokesh over the merits of continuing the Iraq occupation. That would be something worth watching and reporting on as well, I think.

Paul Bramscher September 18th, 2007 11:32 pm

"Propaganda, at its core, is about symbol reshuffling. By "symbol" it's not just things like flags or medals. But also ideas and values — and other ideas and values that they conjure up."

Yes - and with the advancement of technology, the key players in this subversive reshuffling are on top of their game, gaining more and more control over the people and destroying their rights and freedoms while simultaneously preserving the facade of democracy.

One can only hope that the majority will realize what is happening before it's too late.

Paul Bramscher,

Good points. I have long felt that in the US, where the left is a weak and battered underdog, the left's best strategy was to stealthily plant memes that connected as many minds as possible to the contradictions of the right and to the healthy attributes of more socialistic policies. At some point when enough connections have been made, and optimally at a time of great turmoil when opinions and models of reality are in a state of flux, some political figure or figures can take advantage of those connections to fundamentally transform the political dialogue and perceptions of what is possible.

Gail,

The advancement of technology presents great dangers and great opportunities. Only the intellectually lazy or the poorly informed would feel very confident in any prediction about how this will all play out.

When is the last time a general put his life at risk...the civil war? Gilliani is the epitomy of evil and will grandstand ad nauseum on any specious national security issue...

Just hope Move On tests it's ads with "swing voters". Just preaching to the choir is good only for generating advertising revenue.

How about an ad showing the homes of the rich and maybe not so famous, who profit most from the killing.

Most politicians win elections by telling the lies that people want to hear. Worked for republicans for decades.

?Don't worry, It's always been mostly lies!?

Politics, religion, education, corporations, MSM, and the military. Did I forget anyone?

UN-common-dreams September 19th, 2007 3:04 am

Theres RELATIVES of over 1 MILLION DEAD IRAQIS that are saying right now

OH MY GOD......

Trouble is: we talk and talk to people who agree with us. We work it out in composition.

THEN WHAT?

Nothing.

"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." - Thomas Pynchon