oooh this thread is fun!

Libertarianism is a political philosophy maintaining that all persons are the absolute owners of their own lives, and should be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property, provided they allow others the same liberty. Some view that it is morally imperative that all human interaction, including government interaction with private individuals, should be voluntary and consensual. Other believe that allowing a very large scope of political and economic liberty results in the maximum well-being or efficiency for a society - even if protecting this liberty involves some initiation of force by government.

Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. It is usually considered a branch of the broader socialist movement.

Social Democracy aims to reform capitalism democratically through state regulation and the creation of state sponsored programs and organizations which work to ameliorate or remove perceived injustices inflicted by the capitalist market system.

In response to coco..
I watched the video posted as well..
not knowing what may have provoked
the police during that particular
peace gathering.

I still believe your suggestion of ALL
WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE
is EXCELLENT. So much so that I chose
to post a message to the DC CODE PINK
list hoping the suggestion could lead
to more people joining vigils and marches in the future. If you were here in DC
I would suggest you join me in singing
ALL WE ARE SAYINIG IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE
tomorrow.

EMILIEHAMILTON

i'm glad you have done something positive in the way of suggesting a song/chant. and this is a very powerful refrain if produced correctly. but it must be co-ordinated. i'm a singer so know what that means. it's no use everyone singing at different times. and the rythmn is very important too. there is also a chance to put hand clapping in there that will boost the impact. oh how i wish i could be with you. but i will go about my day tomorrow singing this and thinking of you. i looked for other relevant songs but they were too long. however just for the lyrics and sentiment have a listen to marvin gaye's 'what's going on' and 'mercy, mercy, me.' once again, good luck.

emiliehamilton:

Each organization has its own philosophy regarding the tactics they feel best gets their point across. There are many groups who DO make use of candlelight vigils and quieter protests. If CODE PINK doesn't fit the bill for you, then try something else that will. Don't expect them to change to fit your needs.

Personally, I admire Code Pink for reminding us what this administration is.....SHAMEFUL!! I don't think that can be overstated. Lying to the American people, illegal invasions and occupations of sovereign nations, rendition, torture, spying on US citizens, exposing undercover CIA agents solely for political revenge, appointing incompetent cronies to fill roles that are vital to our well-being and security, awarding no-bid govt contracts to corrupt corporations who steal and waste our tax dollars......ALL shameful. Shame doesn't even BEGIN to express how I feel about that!

Would the Mc Carthy hearings have had the same impact had Mr Welsh not stood up there and demanded: "You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"

Where is that courage today? There should be impeachment hearings going on as we speak. And someone should be repeating those VERY words!

Flower-power was as well and good, but it was paraplegic vets chaining themselves to the chain link fences surrounding defense contractors that got national attention. Keep in mind also, that the Kent State episode began as a peaceful demonstration and ended with the murder of 4 innocent students by our own national guardsmen. Several were shot in the back while running for safety, others killed while walking to class, carrying books.

Now THAT is shameful!!

but but but Sheehan and Parser and Rev. Yearwood are Very Unserious People!

How dare they pretend that the people who work for them in Washington, whose salaries they pay, are actually accoutnable to them!

Why, they might even suggest it's our natural right to change our system of government if it's not working to our benefit, like another bunch of Very Unserious Troublemakers 230 or so years ago...

neomunk, dichterfreund, dustinchicago, rabblerowzer, and others, thanks for the informative posts.
I wish I could sit down with everyone and hash out all these thoughts, questions, plans of actions etc but we are limited to these postings for now.

Dichterfruend, I'm wondering if there could be such a thing as a compassionate libertarian? or do you think that their libertarian ideals automatically make them "parasites". After reading your post about Social Darwinists I want to reread Peter Singer's, "A Darwinian Left", essay.

dustinchicago, Can we assume that the US is not a Social Democracy? What is the US defined as now? Is Bushco just a more fanatical version of a corporatocracy that has been in place for a long time?

And where would one put Nader in the political spectrum? Where do anarchists fall? left or right of libertarians? Or are they not even on the spectrum?
So many questions, so little time.

"iwarrior — The first order of concern for any plutocracy or any other authoritarian state is that the people think they have some power and are "part of the system". In our case, national elections have to look like they have some meaning. But can't you see the way it always shapes up?

The whole process is to hire a spokesperson for the military-industrial-corporate-complex and make it look like the people have a choice. It is accomplished through massive amounts of money given to the best "job applicants" for marketing, usually involving being a "voice of authority" and saying very little and only that which can be safely be enclosed, now or later, within the corporate agenda.

If people voted their views, Kucinich might actually win the nomination, but things are arranged differently, and part of it has to do with fear of rocking the boat. Fear that the edifice will come tumbling down. That's what they always hold over our heads. So, we go for the easy person, the person with few sharp edges to puncture the nice enclosed corporate womb in which we spend most of our lives. (The lie is that it is beneficent and has something to do with democracy.)

You can be sure that the corporate establishment would pull out all of the stops if there was actually a chance of Kucinich being elected.

Anyway, I don't consider it to be self-righteous to vigorously and passionately oppose living under a gang of corporate thugs and to honor with my life the principles of our republic. What's our nation worth? Maybe that's a question that should be asked."

Arry-you make good points. I don't have a problem with those who rail against the system. It's just that the author acts as if everyone can afford to get tackled by a bunch of cops and risk their well-being and jobs over this. If you have nothing to lose, great, but most people have a lot if not everything to lose if they do something rash.

A bunch of us could waltz into the White House with a bunch of guns, but most of us aren't going to make it out alive, and if we do, we're going to spend the rest of our lives in jail.

I'm not saying people shouldn't "make trouble" per se. Sure, people like Code Pink and Rev. Yearwood are very courageous. I applaud them and pray for their safety. But at the same time, we can't expect everyone to risk it all either. That's what I am taking issue with. I hate when people suggest that the majority of Americans are sans a care and a clue. They know something is wrong. The elections are around the corner.

I think part of the problem is that people are unaware of candidates like Kuchinich. They know about Obama, Clinton, and Edwards because they're all over tv. Yesterday I discussed Kuchinich with a staunch Democrat I work with, one of the few people there I can have a decent political discussion with.

He had never seen or heard of Kuchinich before.

He was like, "You know, I like that guy Dennis...whatshisname. I might vote for him, he seems like a true Democrat."

No kidding. So I told him, "Heck yeah you should vote for Kuchinich." This guy didn't even know that he ran in the last Democratic primary. And he's a registered Democrat!

"On Wal-Mart (iwarrior & Future.me) is there not a difference between civil disobedience and moral-value shopping? Everyone here needs to take a long look at their spending habits. There are always ways to shop healthier and local- and yes it can be more expensive. But what about your priorities and moral values? I've been broke and homeless- I've made it through because I am completely honest with my priorities (It is possible to eat healthier and less and spend the same as your $1 menu diet.) And because I worked it through with friends and family and kind strangers. Yes its extremely hard to go it alone- especially with kids in tow- which is why you need a strong community (which, by the way, is not Wal-Mart). And fighting a cop is not civil disobedience."

I agree with you. I myself try to stay away from big chains. I never go to Wal-Mart or McD's and try to keep my money within my neighborhood. But I also think we need to teach people how to live on that $1 a day healthy diet. Not everyone knows how to do that. That's why they go to Wal-Mart and McD's to stretch their dollar.

Fighting a cop may not be civil disobedience, but what to do if you're getting pounded on the skull with a nightstick? I'm going to try to defend myself. I'm not at all suggesting that people should go after cops. I'm worried about what the cops might do, and we all know how cops can be.

I don't know. What do you all think I should do? I live in Pittsburgh. I know there's at least one other poster here from my area.

Now you all are making me feel like I should do more than just vote. :) *sigh*

I do discuss politics with people. I've done it on other forums unrelated to politics and have taken my lumps for it. What else should I do?

I mean, I AM angry. I just don't want to get myself into trouble here. But I have a feeling that trouble is what I will find, and again, I'm getting itchy.

Help? Activism is rather new to me.

Tactics!

I think about this a lot. It seems that the previous tactics of the antiwar movement have been met with limited success. Massive rallies in Washington were temporarily scrapped for supporting getting Dems into Congress and were then scrapped for many small local actions. Some people have been practicing civil disobedience by occupying lawmakers offices, but it receives little media attention outside of the internet. When activists like Code Pink do get media attention, they are framed as "wackos" by the media. We have already succeeded in changing public opinion and getting a Democratic Congress, but it has not accomplished our ultimate goal of ending the occupation of Iraq. What should our tactics be? Should we follow Code Pink's lead despite the media's spin on it? More polite approaches seem not to have worked. What can we do that will not make us marginalized but allow us to be a force that cannot be ignored by Democrats or Republicans? How can the people stop the war machine? How can we create our own frame for the issues and our actions instead of letting the media and Congress frame them for us?

In response to Emilie Hamilton's post and my previous ones, how do we walk the fine line between being labelled "angry liberals" and "stupid hippies"? Taking the kinder gentler approach suggested by Emilie might work well or it might lead us to be ignored entirely. Ideas?

I have been criticized in the past for comments I have made concerning "religious persecution". I have stated that the great majority who claim to be persecuted for their religion, were in fact being persecuted for being obnoxious. I think we may have come full circle here. I have contacted MoveOn.org, and the HuffingtonPost both for their idiotic, counterproductive moves made in the past week. Has everyone forgotten that we are going to need the votes of the moderate "swing voters" next year? Petraeus did not "betray us". He simply followed orders given to him by his Commander in Chief. However, MoveOn decided to "shoot the messenger", and piss off people that we desperately need. If we become Karl Rove clones, what makes us any better than them? How much more impact would that ad have had, if instead of lampooning Gen. Petraeus, it had been used to educate people that the majority party in the glorious new Iraqi government is named, "The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq" (SCIRI)? Or that now, another function of our military is training Sunni militias to fight back against the Iraqi government-backed Shiite militias, basically putting us in a war by proxy with the Iraqi government. Or that under Saddam, 30% of all marriages were mixed Shiite-Sunni, and now they have 2 million refugees, and another 2 million internally displaced, from sectarian violence? We need to educate, not ridicule. The facts are on our side. However, our "liberal main stream media" is doing a piss-poor job of getting them out to the American public. MoveOn missed an opportunity to do that, also. I don't know how many we have left before GWB starts WWIII. Do you?

iwarrior -- Thanks for the reasonable, level-headed response. :-)

I don't know the answers, but we will have to go ahead on partial knowledge and well-thought-out assumptions because action is necessary.

My own opinion is that there are times when progress toward our goals appears to be bogged down, lost in a swamp of wrong turns and misassumptions. To me, it seems we have reached that stage. The anti-Constitutional, anti-citizen, genocidal, global imperialist program just keeps running and moving forward, encased in the corporate propaganda/media glitter and diversion, fueled by a flood of money flowing into the political system.

That being the case, it is time to push it, probe it to reveal itself. That's what Code Pink and others are doing. I'm sure activists can think of numerous ways to shock the beast. Now, we'll make enemies, but there will be flashes of truth (and revelations of courage) that we will hope are not lost. (It would be good to target big media, too. No free rides for the corporate troops and courtiers.)

It is getting late and far into the time for serious civil disobedience. Cindy Sheehan is absolutely right.

Locally, you can push for significant resolutions and initiatives. (My own community passed a resolution stating that when the "PATRIOT" Act is in conflict with the Constitution, local officials are directed to follow their oaths of office and support and act in defense of the Constitution.) Some people think these kind of things are unimportant, but I don't agree. It's action of the people on a basic level.

The subject covers a lot more territoty, of course.

This for Reggie Brown and others:

ANY citizen-soldier who "follows orders" without exercising his/her citizen duty to uphold the precepts, ie rejecting orders that are in fact issued by criminal traitors to those precepts themselves is....

... a TRAITOR guilty by the factual evidence of commiting TREASON against the peoples and the precepts of the USA.

As in the majority of the paid liars squatting in what may once have been OUR Congress, as in what once may have been the house we let to OUR executive at one time. As in the entirely despicable whore, Gen. Petraeus.

Are we quite clear now?

REAL citizens, REAL soldiers, REAL Marines are the citizens, exveterans, as well as serving members of our armed forces who are openly and publicly opposing the enemy to human rights and the precepts of human brotherhood by any means at their disposal, at any given moment in time.

Three Cheers for the Republic!