Israeli Air Strikes Killed Civilians Indiscriminately, Rights Group Says
Hezbollah presence in villages exaggerated, Human Rights Watch report concludes
JERUSALEM - Human Rights Watch has condemned Israel over the conduct of last summer's war in southern Lebanon, saying hundreds of civilian deaths stemmed from its "indiscriminate" air strikes and that evidence of Hezbollah fighters hiding in villages was exaggerated.
In a report that followed a lengthy investigation during and after the war, in which researchers spoke with hundreds of villagers and local officials and even examined tombstones in graveyards, the human-rights organization said they found about 900 civilians died in the 34-day conflict, many of them while hiding in their homes or trying to escape.
Though officials credited Israel for warning civilians to flee ahead of air strikes, they said that was not enough to absolve the army from failing to double-check for a civilian presence in subsequent attacks.
"In pretending they had left, it then lowered the threshold for military attack. It was too ready to pull the trigger," said the group's executive director, Kenneth Roth, at a press conference in Jerusalem yesterday. "[It is] a pattern of killing that amounts to indiscriminate fire."
The report, which examined 94 Israeli air and ground attacks resulting in the deaths of about 510 civilians and 51 combatants, is the second lengthy investigation from the group released in the past two weeks. An earlier report, examining Hezbollah's tactics against Israel, harshly condemned the militant organization for its rocket attacks on civilians in northern Israel.
But a press conference scheduled for a Beirut hotel had to be called off when Hezbollah called for large demonstrations outside.
"It perhaps isn't surprising that Hezbollah didn't want the public to hear Human Rights Watch's findings," Mr. Roth said. "That kind of obvious censorship effect is not the activity of an organization that is confident that it acted lawfully. It is the activity of an organization that has something to hide."
In investigating Israel's actions in Lebanon, Mr. Roth said they determined that about 250 Hezbollah combatants were killed in 34 days of conflict, about 100 of those in Israeli air strikes and the rest from ground operations - a number drawn, in part, from examining "martyr" inscriptions on tombstones as well as numerous interviews.
The group acknowledged that some of those interviewed might have felt pressure from Hezbollah: "We are not naive about the political sympathies of many of the people in southern Lebanon," Mr. Roth said, adding that interviews were conducted one-on-one and sometimes confidentially to try to ensure honesty.
But he said the groups of dead brought to hospitals or found in crushed buildings tended to be either all civilians or all combatants, reinforcing the findings that Hezbollah rarely hid among villagers to fire their rockets.
One notable exception in Human Rights Watch's findings was in the case of the Awada family in Aitaroun, in which an Israeli air strike killed nine members of the Lebanese-Canadian family. Villagers told researchers they had seen Hezbollah fighters firing rockets 150 metres from their home. However, the family, was found to have no link to the militant organization.
Israeli officials have refuted the report's accusations, citing overwhelming evidence of rockets, launchers and bunkers that were found in and around schools and hospitals as well as residences.
"This is a situation where Hezbollah was embedding itself," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev, who also said the rights' group should question the validity of interviews with south Lebanese residents, given local constraints. "To say you couldn't find evidence says only that - that you couldn't find evidence."
The rights' group made a list of recommendations that call on Israel to review its military policies, on the Lebanese government to investigate Hezbollah's tactics, on the United States to investigate Israel's weapons use, on Syria and Iran to stop transferring weapons to Hezbollah and on the UN to establish an international commission of inquiry.
More concretely, it has also offered to appear before Israel's Winograd Commission, the government's own inquiry into the events of last summer, now expected to deliver its final report by early next year.
© 2007 CTVglobemedia Publishing Inc.
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65 Comments so far
Show AllSorry Pax4all, I just don't want to read people who agree with me. Vets actually represents the views of many people I know, most of them Jewish. We can't begin to grapple with a problem unless we know where people are coming from.
"They'd run amuck, rabid, killing a thousand Arabs to get even for one Israeli."
Which is exactly what they do - indiscriminate bombing, collateral damage, intentional helicopter gunship attacks against 'terrists' holes up amazingly smack in the middle of a wedding party somehow ...
Israel kills a disproportionately higher number of Palestinians in this occupation.
Israelis kill Palestinian children routinely. And they get away with it. If the shoe were on the other foot and Palestinians killed Israeli children, what would Israelis do? They'd run amuck, rabid, killing a thousand Arabs to get even for one Israeli.
If America wants a Zionist homeland so badly, may I recommend giving Beverly Hills, Miami Beach and parts of Chicago and Brooklyn for such a homeland; and let the Palestinians live in peace without Zionist intereference and oppression?!!
Noam Chomsky and his wife recently toured the devastation that Israel caused Lebanon, and a book has recently been published on what they (and others) saw.
http://www.amazon.com/Lebanon-Surviving-the-U-S-Israel-tag-team-of-aggression/lm/R1SU0WK06L94DZ/ref
Hi All,
I am reposting this from another thread. We have a big problem here that needs to be discussed. There is another article on CD about Israel provoking Syria. Since they are done with Iraq and Lebanon they are on to then next target see below.
The article is about Israel provoking Syria. Here is the grave danger in that. Syria and Iran have a mutual defense pact, which would mean that Iran would have to come to the military aid of Syria as well as the US being pledged to support Israel militarily. This means a Middle East regional wide war and WWIII and America caught in the middle along with our troops. Bad news very very bad news. Israel is determined to launch a war against Iran and get the US in by hook or by crook.
All:
Please don't respond to vets. You're not going to learn anything when it responds, so you're just lending legitimacy to its comments by addressing them. (I've been guilty of this myself in the past, but will no longer.) It has a right to post whatever it wants, but you are just rewarding it when you acknowledge its comments.
Thanks in advance.
Zionism is, in essence, anti-semetism and promotes anti-semetism as well. It is an anathema to Judaism and an insult to a culture with progressive history.
The US ruling class has used Israel to do it's dirtiest work and Israel has used Jews to undermine criticism and to work behind the scenes for it. The whole filthy mess must end and the best way for that to happen is for the US to stop finiancialy underwriting Israel and end all aid unless it ends it's apartheid system and recognizes all Palestinians as equal citizens or pulls back to it's 1967 borders and recognizes a fully independent Palestinian state.
Plenty of Jewish people are sick of the Likud and Kadima parties in Israel so being tired of Israeli gov't policy does not make one an anti-semite. It sure as hell makes one a fedup taxpayer though!
"We should not be promoting Antisemitism"
Being anti-Israeli policies is NOT being anti-semite. Do not confuse the issues. The AIPAC and all other Israeli lobbies do a darned good job of mashing it all up so as to squelch any protest about Israeli policies in the middle-east.
This is very similar to the republican line about being unpatriotic if you are against the Iraq war !! They milked that for a helluva long time didnt they ...
http://arabisraelipeace.blogspot.com/2006/09/john-stewart-on-israeli-attack.html
The US+Israel= NOT a prayer for the PALESTINIANS. Why it has to be the US the only outside nation trying to solve the Palestinian genocide?. Israel needs the FAT cow , solving the palestinian problem would mean no excuse for Israel to continue bleeding the US tax payers to the tune of almost 7 billions $$ per year. Where has the United nations been all these years?, Europe looks the other wAY.
iT IS TIME FOR A NEW COALIITION of Arabe and European countries to take over the solving of the problem,and if Israel does not try to work with these countries to try to find a way to peace,well then an international boycott is due, just like we did to Iraq,CUBA, and now thinking to do to Iran.
We should not be promoting Antisemitism, which unjustifiably condemns all Jews, even those who are speaking out against these atrocities.
What we should be doing is placing the blame where it belongs at the feet of the great Decider.
Without the psychotic maniacal blood thirsty fool this country put in the white house this type of behavior by the warmongers in Israel could never have transpired.
While it is true that the voters of the USA and Israel are ultimately responsible for selecting there leaders it is difficult to denounce everyone in there respective countries when only a slim majority stands between a sane policy and an insane policy, which is what we now have.
With few exceptions I have never seen such callous wanton killing of innocent people in my 6 decades on the planet.
And no it is not a far stretch to compare the current government of Israel with the Nazi party of Germany.
This does not make one an anti Semite, it merely points out the obvious that the theological regime in charge of both dysfunctional countries are definitely now employing Nazi tactics.
Remember "Quit India"? (India is doing better than ever, now, BTW)
Why not "Quit war"?
"Quit taxes"?
"Quit lobbies"?
"Quit mainstream"?
I say we have a campaign for QUITING our ADDICTIONS to social paradigms that are destroying us!
Are you with me?
Q
The fact that Israel got its ass kicked by Hezbollah says a lot. Israel is armed to the teeth with every imaginable modern weapon (courtesy U.S.) and a supposedly highly trained army of assasins and yet coudlnt manage to defeat a fairly well organized guerilla army like Hezbollah.
Israel as always was and is the provocateur as is evident by the events of the last couple of days in Syria. Our client state is doing our bidding.
Who would have imagined that in 60 years the zionists with the help of western powers would create a State that is singularly responsible for all the carnage in the middle-east.
Dump Bush well if CNN says it must be true especially when it comes to Wolf Blitzer, a fair and reliable source, it must be true. Wolf Blitzer wouldn't put a spin on the Middle East...no....never!
The again this is the same Wolf Blitzer who excused Jonathan Pollard's spying with a book he wrote and formally worked for AIPAC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Blitzer
The late Edward Said on the Middle East:
http://tinyurl.com/2wh6xl
Dump Bush:
"Human Rights Watch has condemned Israel over the conduct of last summer's war in southern Lebanon, saying hundreds of civilian deaths stemmed from its "indiscriminate" air strikes and that evidence of Hezbollah fighters hiding in villages was exaggerated."
"But he said the groups of dead brought to hospitals or found in crushed buildings tended to be either all civilians or all combatants, reinforcing the findings that Hezbollah rarely hid among villagers to fire their rockets."
You might want to read the article before you comment.
Zionism is the worst thing to happen to the Jewish people since their enslavement by the Pharaoh.
That's B.S. Israel was looking for and invented a provocation to destroy Lebanon because Lebanon was out-competing industrially and commercially it in the region. How many Israelis were killed by Hezbollah launched rockets before the Israeli invasion? Hezbollah's very existence is a result of prior Israeli aggression in Lebanon. It is a defensive organization which is why it has support among Lebanese who rightfully fear Israeli aggression.
Sorry folks, but Hezbollah was continually raining rockets on the Israeli civillian populace and then hiding among civillians. CNN showed a clip of a Hezbollah rocket launcher being pulled out from a garage under an apartment house, firing rockets at Israel and then scooting back to the underground garage. The people living in that house knew of the rocket launcher, what Hezbollah was doing and chose to remain there. Israel struck the rocket launcher in self defense.
Unfortunately I am sure some Lebanese civilians were killed, but they chose to allow Hezbollah to hide among them when they attacked Israel. Multiply the same behavior all over Lebanon. These people put themselves in danger. They supported Hezbollah.
There is nothing to blame Israel for.
Addendum to the concept, Everything is negotiable, even life:
1. Act of violence (edging)
2. The lag time between the use of violence and possible punishment, reaction or repercussion is used to move forward through negotiation.
3. If negotiation is successfull, real legal redress can be surpressed, including in the case of death caused by unneccessary or even illegal use of force by governments, inside or outside of a national jurisdiction.
The inherent problem in here is the idea of negotiation in modern politics, government and life in general.
The idea has emerged that everything is negotiable.
This idea is in direct conflict with the legal concept, somewhat absolutist, that man is guaranteed certain things such as life, liberty etc. under the law.
In human history the law has attempted to move forward, creating certain absolutes, axioms that have tried in Western humanism to guarantee individuals greater security from physical violence and other forms of harm and violation.
But, business moves forward on the concept of negotiation. And it is the spirit of negotiation that has captured the governments charged with upholding certain legal ideals, axioms and absolutes.
What happens is this.
1. Violence occurs (as part of a negotiation).
2. During the time it takes for law to step in negotiations take place, and continue in the press. This process of negotiation may even alter the perception of the law, and the original act violence.
3. Negotiations take place in the courts over the law, and in the governments legilatures and executive areas.
4. During the entire period, violence continues to cast a strong shadow over negotiations, thus making it an effective tool for those, perhaps not directly culpable of the violence. And it goes on to affect those not even directly involved. (Actually, this has a lot to do with the idea of terrorism.)
All of the governments today are guilty of this tactic of negotiation, using human lives, to reach political, strategic and financial goals in a competitive global marketplace. Greed is the underlying fuel. Fear is the exhaust, creating the suction for this juggernaut of killing.
Some day people the world over, including Israelis and Lebanese, Americans, Chinese, Russians, English, Germans, Italians...Everyone, will again wake up to the idea of living with law by general consent. To live with laws that guarantee humans certain dignities amongst themselves regardless of economic or natural conditions.
This is the basis of human dignity. It is not guaranteed by an God. It is up to us, to man and woman, to humankind, to create its own dignity, by creating and living by a merciful and just system of law.
It's a great shame that Israel should allow itself to become involved in a type of foreign policy that can be accused of lacking the application of the above principal of the law, which should in reality be its greatest heritage.
I can only hope that some day people will again raise our standards up towards the ideal.
Life should not be classified as a negotiable quantity for governments to expend such as is now happening the world over.
It is true that Israel does a few good things and it is false that AIPAC runs the US. That said, nothing good Israel does can justify the sheer brutality of it's actions in the region or its genocidal policies toward Palestinians. Israel is a major liability to the US and we need to take responsibility for it. We should demand the cutting of funds to it as a terrorist state unless it withdraws to its 1967 boundaries, disarms its nuclear stockpile and ceases all provocations.
dcbeltway -
Olmert anouncement from june that Israel will expell refugees made a lot of waves and resentment within the Israeli public.
Here are some recent development on the israeli aid to Darfur refugees (Two articles from September 5th)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6979843.stm
Israel is to grant citizenship to several hundred Darfur refugees who are already in the country.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3397639,00.html
Israel to donate $5 million to Darfur refugees
Foreign ministry receives recommendation to donate millions in aid, equipment to victims of Darfur genocide
Take a moment to look up Israel's economic contribution to the people of Earth and you will see that Israel is a welfare state that could not possibly function or even exist without the massive amounts of aid supplied by the USA.
Who, really, owns Israel? Who is directing orders to test weapons of mass suffering on the Palestinians? Who supplies the weapons? Who supplies the aid?
And people wonder why I stopped paying taxes.
Religion is why black conservatives vote for rich white racists.
I just recently finished reading part of the Old Testament dealing with the genocide commited, on command from some imaginary old man in the sky, when 'Israel' took the 'promised land.'
Tell me again how this isn't about religion.
Their history is one of conquest, genocide, murder. It has been and remains religious. Draping a secular flag on it does not change history. Maybe we should be grateful for those old rags, the 'Holy Bible' and the Torah. They tell the truth, even if they approach it from the pov of the victorious.
As for war in general, war all over the globe will NEVER end so long as we (humanity) believe in nationalism and do service to the bitch goddess Greed.
Israel + U.S. = Indiscriminate murderers!
USrael a shame for humanity
celebrity-Well things like this fuel the fire. Then Palestinians attack, and it fuels the jews' paranoia that "it" might happen again, and they go on the offensive. Imo fear plays a role in this as much as anything.
Maybe I'm insane, but if I were a jew, I think one of the last places on Earth I'd want to live in is Israel.
That's one reason why I don't support the state of Israel. It's a damn lightning rod. I don't want the jews to get wiped out anymore than I do the arabic people. And therein lies the danger. And the America supports Israel which fuels anti-Americanism.
I feel as if the elites just throughly enjoy shaking that worldwide beehive. Perpetual war for perpetual profits for people in power.
Let's give vets a break.
He may be posting from a psychiatric ward of a veterans' hospital.
vets September 7th, 2007 2:43 pm
What bugs me with the article is that no word has been said on who initiated the war.
---------------
It was a well known fact Israeli terrorists "initiated" the war so it wasen't nessessary to bring it up again.
You sure have a convenient short memory vets!!!!!!!!!!!
Israeli Air Strikes Killed Civilians Indiscriminately
Well then, it's no wonder that our Congress passed a resolution approving of Israel's war crimes. The 'values' of Zion are the same as the American government's.
Israel is not taking in Darfur refugees. Darfur is about OIL.
Briton named as buyer of Darfur oil rights
David Leigh and Adrian Gatton
Friday June 10, 2005
The Guardian
A millionaire British businessman, Friedhelm Eronat, was named last night as the purchaser of oil rights in the Darfur region of Sudan, where the regime is accused of war crimes and where millions of tribespeople are alleged to have been forced to flee, amid mass rapes or murders.
The disclosure was greeted with outrage by human rights campaigners. "From a moral point of view these people are paying a government whose senior members may end up in front of the international criminal court for war crimes," Simon Taylor, director of Global Witness, said yesterday.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Oil in Darfur Stops US Charges of Genocide
Researched by Charlene Topliff
Project Censored
Discovery of huge oil reserves in North Darfur "coincides" with President Bush's about-face in charges of genocide. The same industry that bankrolled Bush's presidential campaigns and crafted his petroleum-driven energy policy is now pressuring his administration to normalize relations with Sudan. Though the US has stated it has no "vital interests" in Sudan, dealings of US firms show otherwise. Serving as a place-holder for large US firms until inconvenient sanctions against Sudan can be lifted, Foreign investors like Friedhelm Eronat, are at the heart of a deal to secure Darfur's oil. As a result of the new Darfur discoveries, a contract Eronat signed with Sudan for drilling rights is now worth billions of dollars.
-------------------------------------------------
Here's a damn word on Darfur Refugees:
Israel to Block New Refugees From Darfur
By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, August 20, 2007; Page A10
CAIRO, Aug. 19 -- Israel closed the door Sunday on a surge of asylum-seekers from Sudan's Darfur region and from other African countries, the largest influx of non-Jewish refugees in the modern history of the Jewish state.
Authorities announced that they had expelled 48 of more than 2,000 African refugees who have entered illegally from Egypt in recent weeks. Officials said they would allow 500 Darfurians among them to remain, but would deport everyone else back to Egypt and accept no more illegal migrants from Darfur or other places.
A Sudanese refugee boy stands at a private home where he and others are being temporarily housed after crossing from Egypt into Israel, Kadesh Barnea, Israel, Sunday, Aug. 19, 2007. Israel said Sunday it would turn away refugees from the war torn Darfur region of Sudan in an effort to stop the flow of Africans across Israel's southern border with Egypt. Advocates for the refugees in Israel condemned the decision, saying the Jewish people should be expected to show empathy for people fleeing persecution. (AP Photo/Ariel Schalit) (Ariel Schalit - AP)
The announcement, raising new concerns over the refugees' safety, heightened a debate in Israel over what responsibilities a nation created by survivors of genocide in Europe bore toward people fleeing mass killing in Africa.
It was unclear Sunday whether Egypt would in turn deport the refugees to their countries of origin. Israel had received assurances from Egypt that it would not send Sudanese refugees to their troubled home country, an Israeli official said by telephone, speaking on condition of anonymity.
Egyptian police told the Associated Press, however, that Egypt would send the Sudanese back to Sudan. An Egyptian Foreign Ministry official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said Israel had sought no assurances about the future of the refugees. "Israel just said, 'Please take them,' " the Egyptian official said.
Refugees from Darfur are escaping what President Bush and others have called genocide by government-allied Arab militias against ethnic African villagers. In addition, Sudan and Israel officially are enemies, and Sudan's government has said any refugees sent back from Israel would be considered as having dealt with an enemy state and treated accordingly.
"If deported to Sudan, they will be tried for treason," said Madhal Aguer, a private aid worker in Cairo for refugees from a separate conflict in southern Sudan; a long-running civil war between the north and south killed up to 1 million people before a peace deal in 2005.
Since the 1990s, more than 2 million Sudanese have fled across their country's northern border into Egypt. Although Egypt has generally allowed them to stay, they have faced discrimination and sometimes deadly abuse, and say they find few jobs and little help from refugee agencies.
In 2005, Egyptian police used clubs and water cannons to break up a sit-in by Sudanese refugees near the U.N. refugee agency. At least 20 were trampled to death or otherwise killed in the resulting melee, according to health officials and rights workers.
This spring, thousands of the refugees started moving north to sneak into Israel, in the belief it would allow them safety, freedom and jobs, the refugees said. Israel, which normally gets 700 to 800 asylum-seekers a year, received 2,300 in the first six months of the year, said Anat Ben-Dor, a lawyer at a Tel Aviv University legal clinic who represents some of the African refugees.
Nearly all of the new asylum-seekers are from Africa, including about 1,600 from Sudan, according to Israeli figures. Israel has confined some of the arrivals in prisons or in tent cities and trailer camps in the desert, and others in remote kibbutzim.
The Africans have generally crossed into Israel over Egypt's Sinai border. Most sell all their goods to pay the $300 to $400 fee demanded by local Bedouin guides. The danger is high; since July, Egyptian authorities have fatally shot at least one refugee, a 28-year-old Darfurian woman, at the border, and shot and wounded several others.
Actually Vets, I said 'relatively' not perfect. I should have been more specific, the relative harmony was actually before Zionist movement in the late 19th century..there was an influx of refugees from the pogroms during the time of those riots. Face facts, anythime one group of people moves in on another there are problems. We have it with the Latinos moving into my community, and even within the Latino community itself as Latinos from one country move in on ones from another. It is just how humans behave. It all depends on how it is dealt with and the way it was dealt with in Israel was a recipe for disaster. Both sides are to blame but with Israel it became about more than just a homeland for the Jews. Do you really thing being Jewish exempts you from the greedy land grabs almost every country has done at some point in history since the beginning of time? Ok, I got to go watch Colbert now.
The comments came from a Jewish source in Jerusalem. When you get a Arab or Hezbollah source condemning the rocketing of Israeli towns and villages and killing of Israelis, let me know, incursions to kidnap soldiers and kill or kidnap chilren. Otherwise, shut the hell up! A little balance and symmetry, please. I am damned tired of self-appointed guardians of human rights condemning Israel and not a word of criticism for Sudan for the genocide of Christians in Darfur. Who's taking in the Darfur refugees - Not Arabs, they kill them. No, it is the Israelis.
sphne -
1. Here are some less than perfect harmonious event before WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
2. I would assume that like the British of 1937, your preferable choice is to let the Jews stayed in Nazi occupied Europe. After all, "influx of refugees" is somewhat unconfortable, it may cause too much problems and unrest in Palestine, right?
Too bad the Nazi were not 100% sucessfull in their final solution. these damn Jewish refugees.
3. Some People that calls themselves Palestinians immigrate to Palestine during the 19th century, or during the first half of the 20th century, from the surrounding Arab countries.
I had a co-student in University, she calls herself Palestinian, yet he grandparents emigrated to Palesine from Lebanon in 1940. Why is she more indigenous than a Jewish refugee that escape certain death in 1940?
4. You have somewhat sterile word choice. What you call the "destabilizing effect" was a war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine which was initiate by the Arabs league, after rejecting UN resolution 181.
HEY!! - CHILL -
there's no need to promote antisemitism. Disagreeing with or opposing the actions of the STATE of Israel is not the same as being against Judaism per se. To say that it is is to fall right into the trap laid by AIPAC. Look around - there are plenty of Jews everywhere, leading ordinary, honest community-orientated lives. They're not monsters or rabid religious fanatics any more than the vast majority of Muslims, Christians or whoever. Get a sense of perspective and use rational arguement to counter the accusations of the right wings of both sides.
Forty dead is terrible, the fear and panic from random rocket firings is very meanigful to the people who experience it. However, does it justify 1000 dead in Lebanon, deliberate targetting of ambulances and leaving the battlefield littered and strewn with unexploaded ordnance known to almost selectively target children? Of course not. Get a sense of perspective and use rational arguement to counter the right wings of both sides.
Was Israel created by international (UN) agreement? YES. Were thousands of Palestinians displaced? YES. Were they happy about it? NO. Did soon-to-be Israeli terrorists bomb kill and maim people prior to the settlement? YES. Did the arab states attempt to reverse the creation of Israel and fail? YES. EVERYBODY GET OVER IT
THe most important thing is what Israel has done since - constantly creeping and creeping, annexing, isolating, stealing land, farms, and most importantly WATER. it's about the WATER. The settlers build communities in Palestinian land and constantly erode land farms and infrastructure to make the West Bank an impossible place to live and the Gaza strip little better than the Warsaw ghetto (nice ironic touch that, I think).
If people want to contribute constructively to this, then they need to make clear, fact-orientated arguements and isolate the pernicious, evil intelectual terrorists on BOTH sides, be they AIPAC or Hezbullah or whomsoever.Get a sense of perspective and use rational arguement to counter the right wings of both sides.
I question and fear the motives of the State of Israel and I am horrified by their political influence in the USA and the United Kingdom. I was born in the UK and now live in the USA. I am especially disturbed by the role of dual Israeli / US citizens in the United States Government. I am simply dumbfounded by how Americans are unaware or unconcerned about the fact that their leaders ow allegance to a sovergn nation other than the USA it's mind-boggling.
However, you've got to hand it to them, these Israelis - they have cracked it - they have the USA in their pockets and twisted around their fingers. They are in control, no question/ If people are unhappy about this then stop whining and DO SOMETHING. Start by going to local election candidates and asking them if they have dual or only American citizenship. Make it a democratic issue. Organise, research, lobby and VOTE.
Israel was one of the few countries which had close relationship with the racist regime of South Africa during the apartheid era. It supplied nuclear technology to that regime. So it is not surprising that Israel killed innocent Lebanese. Israel and its "contract killer" (the US) are known for these activities. The bombing of the building where Lebanese women and children were hiding and killing more than 130 of them says it all.
The report of Alvaro de Sato, United Nation's Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, gives a detailed account of the atrocities of both the Israel and its "contract killer".
I would say the people that had been living there for centuries tending the land and raising children are the indigenous ones. Didn't we already go through how many people have occupied that land during the thousands of years till now? There were thousands of Jews in Palestine living in relative harmony with the Arabs way before 1948. I don't have to tell you the history of your own country, it was the influx of the thousand of refugees from WW2 that had the truly destabilizing effect.
TheLoraxm - I must disagree with you. The conflicts in the middle east are about religion.
Religion is the main engin behind most wars.
You will not have that many wars if people we see what is common between them, instead of what is different.
Israel is Bush's bitch. They do as they're told.
The Arab countries won't let them in, yet they never protest nor think about attacking Saudi Arabia. They,like Bush seek out the weakest link and begin their special cleasing propaganda.
Vets -
Whether the killing was initiated by Hezbollah or not is irrelevant. The conflict simply exists.
Both sides are wrong to continue fighting.
The Jews STOLE the Palestinian land and declared their independence. Several Arab nations immediately attacked them. (Sound alot like what America did) Israel exists because the Arabs LOST the Arab-Israeli conflict. Yeah I know that's tough but hey, when you lose you have to accept your loss. Land boundries were established and neither side respected their boundries.
Israel has the money and is guilty of manipulating conditions in Lebanon in an attempt to keep Palestinians living in squalor. Arafat was a horrible leader and incited the Palestinians to violence against Israel in retaliation.
This is a perfect example about how violence does not solve problems. Palestinians throw rocks, Israel shoots bullets, Palestinians blow up trucks, Israel shoots rockets...
It is mindless insanity.
Murdering people is not a philosophy of Islam nor is it a philosophy of Judaism. Since neither religion embrace war and death, the conflict cannot be about religion. It is a land boundry dispute. Until both sides agree to discuss the matter openly, come to terms on an issue, stop accusing the other side of 'who started it', and stop killing people it will never end.
TheLorax - Bombing civilian is always bad. It doesn't matter what is their nationality, religion or skin color, and on which side of the border they reside.
The war in Lebanon was triggered by the Hezbollah. It should have not started in the first place.
I would prefer to read reports by human rights organization such as Amnesty international, or Bets'elem who condemned both sides for war crimes. And not double standard reports of Human Rights Watch, who blame one side, while ignoring the other side's action.
gyptian - "Arent you the one who wanted the entire Palestinian population slaughtered to 'make way' for the suffering jews !!"
No, I never said so.
gyptian, Lies? Me? Have said anything different than the truth?
Are you denying the fact that you have once said that 80% of the Israelis who are not Liberals - should be shot? (80% of 7.2 million Israelies is ~~6 million)
Do you want me to start with comparisons between Nazi Germany's Holocaust and the War in Lebanon? (Who was the aggressor, how many people dies, how many rockets Jews fire at Northern Germany, existence of extermination camp and gas chambers, mass executions, racistial laws etc.)
If you want, I challenge you to do the comparison - Then we shell see who of us is the liar?
The European Union body EUMC - (European Monitoring center of racism and xenophobia) have already concluded what type of people telling accusation similar to yours (comparing Israel's action to Nazi Germany's action)
If interested, I can sent you the link. Or you can google it yourself by typing anti-semitism & EUMC
As Zoya would say here comes the pissing match.
So one good bombing deserves another right Vets? For every Jew they kill lets kill a hundred Palestinians! The world will be much better then! Everybody pick a side and start killing!
Ah...Zionism in it's purest form.
Ah vets ... was wondering when you would crawl out of your cave and start spewing the lies and accusations. Arent you the one who wanted the entire Palestinian population slaughtered to 'make way' for the suffering jews !!
Religion is the answer!?
What bugs me with the article is that no word has been said on who initiated the war. No word had been said on the war crimes that the Hezbollah committed in Northern Israel. (4000 rockets on civilian targets, 40 dead civilians, 2 million refugees)
A coin have more than one side.
Non of the war crimes would have been committed in the first place if the Hezbollah would have left Israel alone in peace. Or if Lebanon (The Lebanese army) would have assume control over all its territory.
gyptian September 7th, 2007 1:20 pm
"Israel seems to have absorbed a lot from the Nazis, ethnic cleansing, mass murder, indiscriminate killings, land grab all under the pretext of democracy or some such crap."
Coming from someone who in the past called for the genocide of 6 millions non-liberal Jews in Israel, there is some hypocrisy in your comment - wouldn't you say?
celebrity September 7th, 2007 12:56 pm
"It seems there's damn good reason to be anti-semitic these days. Israel + U.S. = Indiscriminate murderers!"
NOT SO FAST.....Extremist Zionistic agenda linked to the Ultra right wing Likudists which a silent majority of Israeli Jews object to. If Fox CBS ABC etal aired typical Haaretz media Americans would be better informed as to the local dissent of criminal military tactics used by the IDF in Lebanon......
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 was passed. It stated that "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination". The resolution 3379 was rescinded in 1991 by the Resolution 4686. This issue is discussed in length in the article on anti-Zionism.
Since 1948 most Jews have continued to identify as Zionists, in the sense that they support the State of Israel even if they do not choose to live there. This worldwide support has been of vital importance to Israel, both politically and financially. This has been particularly true since 1967, as the rise of Palestinian nationalism and the resulting political and military struggles have eroded sympathy for Israel among non-Jews, at least outside the United States. In recent years, many Jews have criticized the morality and expediency of Israel's continued control of the territories captured in 1967.
There are a number of critics of Zionism, ranging from Jewish anti-Zionists to pro-Palestinian activists. Some of the most vocal critics of Zionism have tended to be Palestinians and other Arabs,[citation needed] many of whom view Israel as wrongfully occupying what they view as the Arab land of Palestine. Such critics generally opposed Israel's creation in 1948, and continue to criticize the Zionist movement which underlies it. These critics view the changes in demographic balance which accompanied the creation of Israel, including the displacement of some 700,000 Arab refugees, the displacement of 600,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands, and the accompanying violence, as negative but inevitable consequences of Zionism and the concept of a Jewish State. Critics of Zionism, such as Joseph Massad of Columbia University have asserted that Zionism is a form of racism, both in its support of Israel as a Jewish State, and in its continuing policies such as the Law of Return.
While most Jewish groups are pro-Zionist, some liberal and Haredi Jewish communities (most vocally the Satmar Hasidim and the Neturei Karta group), oppose Zionism on religious grounds. Other non-Zionist Israeli movements, such as the Canaanite movement led by poet Yonatan Ratosh in the 1930s and 1940s, have argued that "Israeli" should be a new pan-ethnic nationality. A related modern movement is known as post-Zionism, which asserts that Israel should abandon the concept of a "state of the Jewish people" and instead strive to be a state of all its citizens.
Too bad US of I will veto any condemnation in the US. ISrael will say that there were 'terrorists' in those buildings. There are terrorists everywhere according to Israel and Bush. Everyone that disagrees with them is linked to AQ, Hamas or Hezbollah. I bet tthat Megaphone software is blaring right now for the Nazi Israeli supporters will be out here in force soon. Vets being the first.
Regev and Rumsfeld must have gone to the same school of logic.
Look What You've Done!"
AIPAC Congratulates Itself on the Slaughter in Lebanon
By JOHN WALSH -counterpunch-
"My fellow American," Howard Friedman, President of AIPAC, begins his letter of July 30 to friends and supporters of AIPAC, "Look what you've done"! After warning that "Israel is fighting a pivotal war for its life," by which he means Israel's wanton slaughter and all-out destruction in Lebanon, Freiedman condemns "the expected chorus of international condemnation of Israel's actions" and Europe's call for "a cease-fire immediately." Then he exults: "only ONE nation in the world came out and flatly declared: Let Israel finish the job. . That nation is the United States of America--and the reason it had such a clear, unambiguous view of the situation is YOU and the rest of America Jewry." (All emphases in the original here and below.) Here I must take issue with President Friedman since I bet that most Jewish Americans, in contrast to the AIPAC crowd, were horrified by the slaughter in Lebanon. In fact if anyone other than President Friedman wrote this, he would be accused of fabricating a Jewish plot and labeled a nutty conspiracy theorist and scurrilous anti-semite.)
"How do we do it"? President Friedman asks a little further on. The answer is "decades of long hard work which never ends." Not only is it hard work--but it's eternal. However, President Friedman is not content with generalities and gives us some of AIPAC's trade secrets. Here are two notables:
"AIPAC meets with every candidate running for Congress. These candidates receive in-depth briefings to help them completely understand the complexities of Israel's predicament and that of the Middle East as a whole. We even ask each candidate to author a 'position paper' on their views of the U.S.-Israel relationship--so it's clear where they stand on the subject." (Would it not be great to see these "position papers"? I wonder how many candidates would release them? And what do the candidates get for all this effort? A pat on the back?)
"Members of Congress, staffers and administration officials have come to rely on AIPACs memos. They are VERY busy people and they know that they can count on AIPAC for clear-eyed analysis.. We present this information in concise form to elected officials. The information and analyses are impeccable--after all our reputation is at stake. This results in policy and legislation that make up Israel's lifeline." (Another way to read this is that the pea-brained hillbillies who make up most of the Congress can be led by the nose if the memos are simple enough. Testimony to this fact enters my mailbox, as I write, in the form of a must-read interview with Noam Chomsky, which details just how distorted the discussion of Israel and the war on Lebanon has become in the U.S.)
President Friedman's letter continues with more headliners: "Unfortunately, our work has just begun"! "Hizballah must be defeated." And finally, "The war is a diversion"!!!! This last section argues that the war in Lebanon is a "distraction," to "divert attention away from Iran's nuclear weapons program"! (In case you haven't noticed President Friedman loves exclamation points, which leads one to wonder whether a good dose of lithium might not be in order.) But this "analysis' is hopelessly confused since Israel started the war on Lebanon using a minor border skirmish as an excuse - as Chomsky points out in the interview alluded to above. It leaves one wondering about AIPAC's analyses. Are they "clear-eyed" as Friedman claims, or wild-eyed?
President Friedman closes with the exhortation: "Now is the time for us, American Jews, to stand up and tell our elected officials that they must demand Iran halt its pursuit of atomic arms." In other words, next stop Iran if AIPAC can swing it. And in that lies a great danger. The Bush administration is losing ever more of its base and only the neocon establishment and AIPAC remain securely in its camp. (Even some of the born-agains are deserting.) With the November elections coming, Rove and Bush desperately need AIPAC support, and so they may be even more susceptible than usual to its demands for going after Iran. Indeed this is a dangerous time.
John Walsh can be reached at john.endwar@gmail.com.
He thanks President Friedman for much of the material in this article, which is taken directly from his latest fundraising letter to AIPAC supporters and members.
How is it possible that Israel's flattening 100 ood buildings in the suburbs of Beirut, ostensibly to attack Hezbollah command center, didn't generate universal condemnation and calls for immediate ICJ proceeding to punish such an obvious war crime?
Oh wait, just remembered Condi's press conference in Israel, the one where she was drooling in glee over event that were "... the birth pangs of a new Middle East", whehe she proudly proclaiming "We will prevail".
Right, so kinda made it a US sanctioned flattening of the Beirut suburbs, no? Yeah, of course... my bad, never mind.
Israel seems to have absorbed a lot from the Nazis, ethnic cleansing, mass murder, indiscriminate killings, land grab all under the pretext of democracy or some such crap.
Israel
They couldnt tell the difference between a wooden horse carrier and a hi tech US communications ship-after several fly overs on a clear day-
they bombed UN outposts by mistake
and they accidentally dropped hundreds of thousands of mines into Lebanon before they pulled out last summer.
Oops.
The One True God's chosen people?
More like the One True God's Keystone Cops of the Middle East
lol
unless...they deliberately attacked a US navy ship
and deliberately bombed a UN outpost
and deliberately dumped mines into lebanon
But they wouldnt do that would they?
After all they are the only Democracy in the Middle East and we know that Democratic countries dont go around killing..especially by mistake.
It seems there's damn good reason to be anti-semitic these days. Israel + U.S. = Indiscriminate murderers!
Vets, it is the collective punishment that people have a problem with no matter who is doing it. Israel just has more power and money to do more harm and they are backed up by big brother USA. The whole problem with Israel is timing, the rules for displacing indigenous people changed drastically from when America was colonized. There is even a big difference in how the Indians of the Western USA were treated compared with the Eskimos a couple of decades later. Also, the Palistinians had some backup with surrounding nations to complicate things. Israel really just should have gotten the hell out of those occupied territories while they had the chance, there would have been problems but not insurmountable ones we have today. It would eventually have eased with each generation like it has Northern Ireland.
sphne - I have two questions.
1. Who are the indigenous people? Those who were expelled and come back 1750 years later? or those who lived in the country when this comming back took place?
I agree with you that Israel made many mistakes after the six days war in 1967.
kathyodat - The numbers you are talking about are not accurate.
the ratio is NOT 10 Kids for every soldier. Unlike Palestinian suiside mobmers - Israel does not target non-combatant. (Many Palestinian Kids were killed, but they were not the target + on some cases Palestinians used Kids as suicide mobmers which put them as combatant)
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp
Since the last round of conflict started in 2000, the number of Palestinians who were killed by Israel is ~ 5,000. About half of them were armed militant (not kids). The number of Israelis killed by Palestinians is around 1,200.
Well - If American main stream media is biased 10:1 in favor of Israel. CommonDream is biased infinite to 0 in favor of the Palestinians, since CD have published 0 pro-Israeli articles.
I once sent an article about new revolutionary technology for producing cheep Solar Energy in Israel. Yet CD chose not to publish it. Probably because it might have put Israel in a positive light.
"NOT SO FAST…..Extremist Zionistic agenda linked to the Ultra right wing Likudists which a silent majority of Israeli Jews object to."
So, where is the silent majority? what have they been doing? Just being silent??
The whole world has run out of patient with Israel and its silent majority of Israeli Jews.
vets, the representation of this conflict is being distorted by the American press. The following link shows how the corporate media is skewing perceptions about what is really happening. It's also a fact that every time an Israeli soldier is killed, they retaliate by killing 10 Palestinians, mostly children. They also are using repressive policies, such as their "fences" and water grabs and bulldozing olive groves. There's plenty of blame to go around, but it's the Palestinians who are poor and landless in this situation.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html