Due to the cheapest foods in the US being laden with a literally toxic of combination sugar, fat and empty calories, it is difficult for the poor to buy healthy food. Thus, malnutrition in the US often manifests itself in the form of obesity.

Otherwise, dwatkins charcterizations of the US poor are nonsense.

Poverty in US is measured by the landless and debt-riddled nature of most of its citizens. Since the cost of obtaining real equity outright is inflated so high, accessible -- if at all -- only at retirement, we spend our whole adult lives as working stiffs or face forcible eviction.

How is it that someone can at least have a roof over his head by selling fruit in an open market in some countries, whereas in the US you need to have a graduate degree and work for a Fortune-100 to get real equity before the age of 65?

Since our middle-class and working-class (same thing now) have very little in the way of real equity, real right to live anywhere without facing eviction, they're forced to work or else face homelessness. Where can you live in the US on such a modest cost-of-living that you could make a living as a poet, a philosopher, a small market gardener, hundreds of occupations that are still alive and kicking in much of the so-called developing world?

I wish people would stop spreading the myth that the corporate media helps to widely push out the junk that comes from the Heritage Foundation because "lazy men who run the big newspapers and TV networks" "never questioned a word".

This myth creates the false hope that if we just educate these lazy men, then the corporate media will suddenly stop pushing this stuff out like its true.

Of course, years and years of watching the corporate media push every pro-war message and censor and refuse to cover any anti-war message puts a lie to this myth and helps to kill the false hope that just one more criticism or letter to the editor will magically solve the problem.

Face facts. The corporate media are doing exactly what they want to do. They push pro-war messages from pro-war groups like the Heritage Foundation because they want to. Given the way corporations work, someone has decided its better for the bottom line of the corporation (which often include many companies besides the media outlet) if the corporate media helps spread this pro-war message.

For example, take NBC. NBC is owned by GE. GE is one of the worlds largest defense contractors. Do you really think NBC helps to push pro-war messages because the men who run the news operations are too lazy to check facts?

The same will go with this poverty story. The corporate media will push it because its in the overall best interests of their owners to deny the poverty being created by corporate policies and also to try to blame the victims of those policies for what's happened to them. Quit trying to spread the myth that its because they are too lazy to question the story.

The problem is we have you keep hearing that the economy is doing great.

Well it's not doing great for anyone who makes less than $100,000 a year.

Bush has said that only in a America can a person work 3 jobs. It's a beautiful things.

WHY should a person need to work 3 jobs to make a living. And why he think this is a GOOD thing to have to do ?

~Future~

I just read the Hertitage Foundations Poverty report!
A pauper my self, I called 7 numbers, MAine to DC., to find they ( At Heritage ) Were ALL out to lunch!
OK I just became a journalist! These people need to be refuted, blocked in their foolish fantasies!
My Robert REctor break out with a combo of herpes, scabes, and allergies to 100 different kinds of food!
Yeh I have 2 TV's one of them an analogue, color sony my husband bought in 1968! ( works better than the newer cheap radio shack one a friend gave me. It gets 1 station; ABC local, I just LOVE the religious programs on Sun am!

Poor Americans, they say, have a "weak work ethic."

That explains why Bush is such a poor president.

Who won the french revolution, the have-mores or the have-nots?

Let the have-mores accumulate until they're bum-rushed by the hungry shelterless have-nots who hold nothing but hate and hope, ultimately leaving the have-mores swinging by the neck on a rope.

Poverty is not relative. Poverty is absolute. You either have the basics for survival, or you don't. If you do, you're not poor. To say that fat people with apartments, food, Medicaid, air conditioning, cars, etc. are "poor" is silly. Many of the so-called poor live like certain aristocrats of old, living comfortably without working, contributing nothing (except perhaps trouble), as parasites. Now, if you feel poor because you don't have as much as the people across town, well - that's not poverty, that's envy. Envy is a vice. Put it in TS file and send it to the chaplain.

Anyone her who think that real, old-fashoned poverty doesn't exist in the US needs to get out of their suburban enclave, come to my town, Pittsburgh. Just get on the 86B bus and ride it out through Homewood-Brushton and back. You will see poor people who work quite hard - exhausted from two or three jobs - cannot afford a car, live in leaky-roof old houses or apartments - many with gas shut off for some parts of the winter because they cannot pay the bills. A few houses burn down and people die when they must use heating arrangements when the gas gets shut off.

You can also go down the back roads of Greene or Cambria counties and see the same thing, just a different skin complexion and accent of English. An extended family of eight died last winter when their gas got shut off and an old electric heater started a fire.

A more relative question dwatkins is "What do people have to do to avoid poverty?" Work 3 jobs, 5? Health insurance is an average of 700 dollars per month for a single person. Try making that on minimum wage, hell, try paying it on ten dollars an hour and still have a roof over your head and a four dollar gallon of milk in your ice box. I'm sick to death of people that have no fucking clue whatsover about the hardships the average working person faces EVERY GODDAMN day in this Country. I know plenty of people that don't know how they will pay the rent next month and still put food on the table and trust me they AIN'T livin in the Taj Mafucking Hal...Lemme guess, you work a nice little job, make 50k or more a year and think everything is just great? Probably have employer paid health insurance and a fat retirment plan...Go volunteer at a food bank and shut the hell up...

Thanks for bringing that up PJD. Obesity is actually a symptom of the problem. People can't afford fresh meats and vegetables so they opt for fat laden cheaper alternatives which leads to obesity and more health problems that they cannot afford...

...and even formerly cheap staples that could substitute for meat like beans and lentils aren't very cheap any more - because they are considered "health food". And after working 80 hour a week, who has the energy left to prepare a decent meal?

dwatkins9,

I know the plutocrats love to throw around the word "envy" to explain the anguish of those with less in a land where many have much, much more, as it is intended to deflect attention away from the real issue. What causes the mental anguish is fatigue from being bullied, bullied in every aspect of life. When some have much more than others, and when it becomes impossible (at some age and education level it is impossible short of winning the lottery) for some to ever catch up, the pervasive and inevitable bullying (following a corollary of "power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely"), intended and not, by the haves of the have-nots or by the have-mores of everyone else becomes unbearable.

And in a society with an economy where there is little correlation between what one actually produces (paper-shuffling self-serving managers receive far more than brilliant and hardworking scientists and engineers) and what one receives in compensation, the unjust and unjustifiable (yet inevitable from income disparity) bullying will at some point have explosive consequences.

And lets not forget the final insult - poor people have to pay more for almost everything - food prices are higher in inner city grocery stores, the high service fees banks charge on small accounts or late payments, then those userous check cashing shops which poor poeple must use because of bank account minimums, or no bank branch at all in their neighborghoods. Then, taxi or jitney fare due to no car and inadeqaute public transit.

Then, after all this, the biggest outrage - hospitals and doctors charge uninsured people hundreds to thousands of percent higher rates than those charged to big insurance corporations and insured patients for the same procedure or office visit.

Bush has said that only in a America can a person work 3 jobs. It's a beautiful thing...

Well like the old saying, in the USA, both the rich and poor have the freedom to sleep under a bridge. And both rich and poor enjoy equal legal rights when they are caught stealing a loaf of bread!

American society has been accustomed to mistreating groups of individuals for hundreds of years.

Before the economic and political idealogical wars of the 20th century, Americans mistreated African Americans and Native Americans.

During the early 20th century capitalists attacked the poor with vengeance. When their economic system failed causing the Great Depression some counter capitalist policies where tried and those succeeded in eliminating the depression.

The mid 20th century was the golden age of economic well-being in the U.S. With most other industrialized country's infrastructure destroyed by WWII, American manufacturing industries operated at full capacity with prosperity being divided among Americans (African Americans even got civil rights).

The latter third of the 20th century saw rising American global hegemony. The capitalist, with their most prominent figure head Ronald Reagan, saw an opportunity to regain their early 20th century monopolies on wealth in America. Conservatism was their rallying cry but it was economic greed as their motivation and this economic destiny their religion.

Poverty will continue to grow in America as long as these so-called "conservatives" remain the dominant political power.

And BigPhatJay the French revolution path will not work today. The answer lies in democracy and voting, especially voting by the poor.

"Well it's not doing great for anyone who makes less than $100,000 a year."

Sure it is. I make less than that, and do just fine. It's all what you do with it.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

It is a very, very lucky thing for people in the Heritage Foundation that they get to live their lives surrounded by a society of people who are a million times nicer than they are, eh?

"The party or sect that will suffer by the triumph of justice cannot exist with safety to mankind. The state that cannot tolerate universal freedom must be despotic; and no valid reason can be given why despotism should not at once be hurled to the dust."

"The apologist for oppression becomes himself the oppressor. To palliate crime is to be guilty of its perpetration."

both quotes William Lloyd Garrison 1805 - 1879

PJD, you're such a worry wort, MtnGt is doin fine on less than 100k a year so everything must be just fucking rosy...

A couple decades ago, the ultra-wealthy and the power brokers in this country caught on to the idea that if you create or gain control of a so-called "Think Tank", you could manipulate the Press to the nth degree... from hence came The "Project for a New American Century" among others.

When you know where to look for the REAL data, it is quite easy to debunk these liars and propaganda machines.

For example, our Press has been led to believe (and frequently repeat) that our economy is doing well and the unemployment rates are a low 4.6%.

Anyone who does a little research can soon learn that our workforce grows at the rate of about 1.8 million workers per year from our high schools and colleges after the attrition of death and retirement.

Anyone can easily find the information on how many workers come in to the country each year on the 8 or 9 different EXISTING work visa programs... roughly how many illegal aliens have been crossing our borders for the past six years... and how many new JOBS have been created over the past 15 or 20 years.

When you factor in the above numbers, BASED ON THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR'S OWN FIGURES, we are suffering from a DEFICIT of somewhere between 10 and 25 MILLION jobs since 2001.

That is NOT 4.6% and will easily explain why many of our Northern manufacturing cities are now suffering from over 20% unemployment!

There are many "think tanks" publishing absolute crap that almost automatically gets repeated by Faux News and eventually picked up by most of the others.

DO NOT TRUST:

PNAC
The American Enterprise Institute
The Heritage Foundation
The Center for Security Policy
Jewish Intitute for National Security Affairs (JINSA)
(Based in Washington, JINSA "communicates with the national security establishment and the general public to explain the role Israel can and does play in bolstering American interests, as well as the link between American defense policy and the security of Israel." Some of the strongest supporters of Israel's right-wing Likud Party in the already pro-Israel neoconservative circles are on JINSA's board of advisers.)
Center for Security Policy (CSP)
(CSP's 2001 annual report boasts of its influence saying it "isn't just a 'think tank' – it's an agile, durable, and highly effective 'main battle tank' in the war of ideas on national security." Securing neoconservatives' influence at the nexus of military policymakers and weapons manufacturers, CSP's mission is "to promote world peace through American strength.")
The Hudson Institute
The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
Ethics and Public Policy Center
The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies
...to naame just a few...

Good for you, Kristina, PJD and kivals. dwatkins and MtnGoat, you're as clueless as Bush and Reagan. Anyone who has lived among the poor knows what it's really like. Anyone else is just making up stories to fit their ideology. That's YOU, dwatkins and MtnGoat.

And our Compassionate Conservatives' solution to no health care, the emergency room. What a joke. You don't get care there. They tell you what's wrong and to go see a doctor, which without money up front, you can't find one to treat you. Anyway, Bush sending the poor to ERs just further clogs the system and piles up costs. What does he care? His MO is to throw money around like a drunken sailor anyway.

"it is difficult for the poor to buy healthy food."

Serious question, do you *know* this to be true or are you just guessing?

"…and even formerly cheap staples that could substitute for meat like beans and lentils aren't very cheap any more - because they are considered "health food"."

They've been 50-60 cents a pound dry weight for years around my way. I know, I buy them regularly.

Ultimately it is up to individuals to commit to healthy lifestyles including dietary choices. If a good case could be made that some poor really could use some help in how to obtain healthy food with the resources that they have I would support it.

"paper-shuffling self-serving managers"

Do you *really* think that management is a mtter of serving yourself and shuffling papers, or is there a chance you just don't understand it?

Gee Jake, I BUY food every week so yeah, I think I KNOW how much it costs, and it costs too much. Fresh veggies are outrageous and quality meat is as well. Don't even think about organic unless your last name is Rockefeller

Kristina40, tell me what you are seeing in the markets out there, give me some examples. Please.

Of course it is ultimately the responsibility of the individual to make smary food choices. but, in most areas, retail sale of food is horribly monopolized - most neighborhoods in my area are dominated by a single huge grocery chain - Giant-Eagle. Then, the huge food monopolies use all kinds of dirty tricks to assure their products fill the shelves to the exclusion of healthier alternatives - aisle after aisle of junk.

So, just as we go after the dealers when addressing drug addiction, so we must hold the food indusrry at least 50% responsible for our obesity crisis among the working class and poor.

We could start with milk that's 4 dollar's per gallon. Most doctors recommend a lo fat diet with plenty of fish. I live on the Gulf of Mexico and the very cheapest fish you can find is catfish and it's 5 dollars per lb. Lean meat like skinless chicken is in that same area per lb. Corn is affordable during summer season you can get six ears for a dollar or so but corn has about zero nutritional value so go figure. I suppose you could live on dried beans and skip the veggies but that's not terribly healthy either. As PJD has pointed out, the vast majority of foods in our groceries are fatty, salty, msg and additive laden JUNK.

"The typical poor family with children is supported by only 800 hours of work during a year–16 hours per week."

Which is nearly twice as many hours per week as the Loonitary Decider puts in. Future studies by the anti-American Heritage Foundation include: "Racism in America - Liberal Myth or Progressive Myth"; "Thank God For Trickle Down"; and "How Cheney Saved America."

There is really poverty in America, and it is not the fault of the victim. But you know what, it is really beside the point; we deserve equality in this country; guaranteed housing, living wages, medicare and free college for all. What we have now is not good enough; it is slavery, and there are homeless, there are malnourished, sick, struggling people who's plight needs to be eradicated as a whole by legislating for everyone; for all of us to be equal.

http://www.dreamingearth.net

It's my belief that most of the great wealth in this country has been acquired either immorally, illegally, or unethically, therefore; I have no respect whatsoever for great wealth, and I believe that people who crave great wealth are a contemptable lot and the shame of mankind. "Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the earth."

You don't need much dairy, cut back.

Seafood is a tough one, it's always more expensive than the other proteins. I sometimes see the catfish for less than the 5 dollars you mentioned, and often I see a "cut" that they call "nuggets" which appears to just be trimmings of the filets, 2 dollars a pound. Stock the freezer when you see good prices on seafood. Canned products may be a good choice.

Here is an awesome vegatable source of Omega fatty acids. Purslane. Pick it for free, especially this time of year. Avoid places you think may be sprayed.

I regularly see poultry cuts on the bone for less than a dollar a pound. Again, I stock the freezer when I like the price. I simmer in water to cover with herbs and aromatic vegatables. The meat is done after 45 minutes or so. After removing from the bone I continue to simmer the bones for another 45 minutes. Strain, refrigerate, and you can scrape off mearly all the fat content the next day. This gives you something to cook the lentils in. Drop some of the purslane in there to wilt down, maybe some of the meat and other vegatables.

I've cut back on beef a good bit as I've noticed that has seemed to increase in price more than anything else.

"we deserve equality in this country; guaranteed housing, living wages, medicare and free college for all. "

And when we have this all guarenteed, where will be the icentive for people to produce anything? I would just fish and drink beer.

"What we have now is not good enough; it is slavery"

If you live in the US with me, you have insulted all *real* slaves, past and present.

Heritage is certainly full of hacks, and it's good to spread that message far and wide. But the author is wrong about one point: poverty is NOT relative. Amartya Sen clarified this in "Inequality Reexamined" -- poverty is an absolute notion. Heritage is probably right that for various technical reasons the poverty rate is very slightly inflated. But so what. Even allowing for a few percentage points of mis-measurement, it is still sad that almost 1 in 5 children grow up in poverty in the richest country in the world.

Heritage is owned by wealthy haves to ensure that they get to keep wealth they have and acquire even more.

For the wealthiest country on earth to have a population with at least 25% below poverty line and/or no health coverage is atrocious.

Remember:
2% of the world's population controls over 50% of the wealth.

50% of the world's population controls 1% of the wealth.

LOL @ Io Q. Lellity September 6th, 2007 5:16 pm
"guaranteed housing, living wages, medicare and free college for all. ... dreamingearth.net ..." Keep dreaming, Q. Lellity. This is not the USSR.

jakenewton September 6th, 2007 5:20 pm: "You don't need much dairy, cut back." What about my two primary-school aged boys? They should cut back, too? You see, my former husband beat both me and them and I have to work two jobs in order to pay the rent and get them to school and get them to the doctor when they are sick because my former husband doesn't pay any child support. Why don't you come on over and tell my sons that they can't have milk.

"Again, I stock the freezer when I like the price." Sounds like you have a big freezer - one that has room enough to get "stocked". Or maybe you have two? Wow - it'd sure be nice to be able to afford two freezers - or even a bigger fridge. It'd be nice to be able to afford the higher electric bills, too. It'd be even nicer to have the spare cash to stock up when I like the price. But, you see, one of my two jobs (the higher paying one) just got transferred to a cheaper employee overseas. The company said that there was nothing that they could do - they had to save money, you see.

So, I guess my boys will have to cut back on the milk that you seem to think that don't need. I'd still like you to come and tell them. OK? Just tell them that they didn't need it anyway.

Not my story - but the story of someone very dear to me.

"Well it's not doing great for anyone who makes less than $100,000 a year."

How about... anyone making under 35,000 a year!

I know folks who make less than 30,000

If you work even at a 12.00 an hour job.. it is tight...even if you rent...

and that is in the midwest.. Forget about on the coasts...

I wouldn't mind even making 40,000 dollars a year.. That would pop me up a lot more.

I am having to be really frugal right now... paying a mortgage... I don't have any extra to save right now.. and barely anything extra to really go out and enjoy meals out or a vacation or an event or two during the summer.

I am trying to refigure out my budget... but it sucks having to be THAT frugral... and I don't buy makeup for myself I bought a few items of clothes this past year for the first time in several years.. I turn out lights everywhere i go. I have incorporated compact flouresants.

I watch how much water I use.. I don't have cable. but I put that into my phone/internet bill which is 100 dollars.. Which is exorbinant!! BUt I feel I need access to the Internet to survive. I don't need Cable.

If I am going to look for a job, or inquiry about a job or network or work on my resume etc.. I need a computer and I need regular email access that stuff is expensive. And many STILL don't have it.

It is an expense i feel is not really a luxury but a neccessity.

So.. Yeah. I am on that just barely scraping buy end... I have a friend who makes more than me. Has 2 kids and a decent job and though maybe she could have made somewhat of a better choice housing wise.. she is having to go through bankrupcy...

I am trying to be frugral.. and it is f**** depressing as hell.. but I am told to quit whining and be grateful for that!

I have a masters degree too!! IN Library Science. Lot of good that has done. Few years ago there were massive cuts and a LOT of librarians got fired and many branches closed and hours were cut.

I would have probably been one of the ones let go... I am working medical records.. yahoo.

but I want to be an artist and a writer... that is what fuels my passion... and makes me happy.. but it aint gonna pay the bills...
sigh

"stock the freezer when you like the price". Yeah. Iowairish has pointed out some of the assumptions embedded in that very offensively ignorant post.

Time for a book break - "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America" by Barbara Ehrenreich. Check it out. Or, of course you could just try living on a minimum wage and see what great nutritional choices you can make to stock your nonexistent freezer with.

"So, I guess my boys will have to cut back on the milk that you seem to think that don't need. I'd still like you to come and tell them. OK? Just tell them that they didn't need it anyway."

I'm confused, are you trying to make the case that dairy is essential to human health? I am sure that a lot of people here would dispute that. Your freind should do some research or get some consultation on this, and if they really need the dairy I am sure it's worth every bit of $4 a gallon. Good luck, but this certainly wasn't the point I was trying to make.

Someone ignorant enough to think the "old days" were somehow "good" is likely to be so uneducated that they don't realize I'm not talking about the ussr, but Scandinavian-style social democracy which is democratic and has proven viable long-term.

No one needs dairy to live; it causes all sorts of disease, and actually, the cow is a single mother just trying to get milk for her kids as well; they were slaughtered, but yours are so fucking important that I guess we'll forget about the fact that livestock causes global warming; your kids don't need to live past thirty, do they? After all, what would they do without a toxic disease-spreading glass of parasites and cow blood daily? Why, they might have to drink juice or water instead; and oh, I just can't think about them turning to bizarre vegan sources of nutrients, such as beans or peanut butter; those exotic health foods aren't even available at most stores.

"I am having to be really frugal right now"
"I am trying to refigure out my budget…"

Please do some research or get some professional help with this. There are plenty of books on budgeting and personal finance free at the library, plenty of online sites. I am sure whatever fee you might pay a pro if you were to go that way would come back in implementing different strategies. Most of us go through this stuff, and we are often too close to our situation to think objectively about it. Good luck to you.

Lazy journalists ?

You must mean complicit partners in crimes against humanity.

Most are cancerous corporate hacks putting lipstick on the corpse of our democracy.

I have known several with real integrity and all lost their jobs and had no choice but to find another way to make a living.

Will there ever again be another Hunter Thompson ?

I've heard from someone who volunteers at the Salvation Army soup kitchen that more and more people are eating lunch there every day.

Have any of these condescending, pompous ignoramuses from the Heritage Foundation ever been to a Native-American reservation? I think not. It's a bunch of BS that they're all rich from the casinos.

Once again the war against the working class is sold American style.

Upon Leaving Office Bush ought to spend the rest of his life seeking redemption as a Ward assistant in Hospitals serving those wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Ward assistants may perform the following tasks:

make sure that an adequate supply of clean clothing and linen is available for the patient and that soiled items are removed and cleaned

assist in maintaining stocks of linen and non-medical supplies

assist in lifting and turning patients and transporting them in wheelchairs or on movable beds

clean rooms such as bathrooms, showers, utility rooms and offices and clean interior windows

mop and buff floors, vacuum carpets, remove rubbish and linen and dust all areas

clean equipment in the pan room such as pan trolleys, buckets, pans, bowls, suction bottles and tubing, commodes, wheelchairs, seats and rinse trays
clean patients' lockers and tables

distribute and collect food trays, check food orders and replenish refrigerator supplies

accompany patients, who are ready for discharge, to the central waiting area

transport equipment, X-rays and patient records between wards, departments and theatres

transport deceased patients from wards to morgue

assist in emergencies and patient restraint.

Ward assistants work rostered shifts which include night and weekend work.

They are on their feet for most of the day. In large hospitals, ward assistants work in a particular department such as outpatients or maternity. In smaller institutions, they may assist in several or all departments."

Believe it or not capitalists out there, some people are motivated by ideals higher than money.

If not, we would have no teachers. Who in their right mind would saddle themselves with massive college debt only to make less than six figures (maybe if you get a job in a million dollar home area and stay there for 35 years) their entire lives guaranteed? Turns out, some of us.

But yes, money is a motivating factor when it is tied to survival. As PJD pointed out, insecurity of finances can lead to death through many avenues, whether heart disease from fatty foods or fire of a heating aid.

This is why (among other reasons) the urban schools, who pay incredibly poorly, have such high turnover rates. Teachers who may choose to try to live healthier, warmer, safer, cannot afford to take such jobs. They may seek out jobs that pay mildly more, simply to ensure their health and safety. Who can blame them? Well, the urban poor I suppose, but this is more an educator's paradox if debated in depth than is relevant to the discussion.

Yet there are still massive amounts of teachers (despite an overall shortage), because many people are motivated to "waste" their tuition money on education instead of becoming a CPA. If you would sit around and fish all day if your economic needs were secure, fine. I would not, and neither would many others. I would spend mine teaching every kid I possibly could, stress free(impossible now), and therefore a lot longer and better(I am still damn good, :) ) than I am able to right now.

Maybe then we could have children (and therefor adults) whose dreams were no longer amassing as much private capital as possible in as little work as possible.

Sorry, kind of off topic, the one comment set me off.

Ok, enough with the milk nazi's already. I've been drinking milk for 40 years and have never been sick, have no infections, am fit and healthy, my bones and teeth are PERFECT and I have a body that makes most 20 year olds jealous. Osteoperosis runs in my family so I'm going to continue to drink my damn milk. I'm also gonna skip the beans and peanut butter diet, I'd be a flatulent, fat mess but thanks for the advice. I love animals and have rescued many as well as volunteered with the Humane Society BUT we are not herbivores. We are omnivores, one glance at our teeth will tell you that. I respect people who are vegan and vegetarian but it's my belief that moderation is the most healthy choice. I don't eat tons of meat and I tend to eat more veggies and fruits than anything BUT I am putting butter on them. Too tired to address any other points right now as I just got in from work and it's past 2am.

I'm a milk-drinking (whole milk, not that .5% rat-piss), meat and potatoes guy, Kristina40.

So I feel your pain.

"I tend to eat more veggies and fruits than anything BUT I am putting butter on them.">

I admit I'm not much of a veggie lover; I'm still mired in the notion that veggies are the food my food eats. But I like a nice bunch of buttered grapes once in a while.

" some people are motivated by ideals higher than money."

I am sure most people are.

" If you would sit around and fish all day if your economic needs were secure, "

I wouldn't, but in part it's to point out that it's up to individuals to decide. The time we have here alive might be an equalizer, in that we are all running out of it no matter how rich we are. When I was recently injured and lying in a hospital bed, I resolved to try my best to understand how I should spend my time here and to pursue that. But we each have to decide for ourselves, I'm convinced of that.

I think there is a high road and a low road to this discussion of poverty.

High road

+ Notion that America should be a land of opportunity for those willing to study hard, work hard, and stay out of trouble. Hopefully, this is a non-partisan American ideal.

+ Notion that perhaps some of those that are of lowest social status in America might not enjoy the opportunity to play in the game even if they study hard, work hard, and stay out of trouble as the system currently stands.

+ Notion that we are all God's children and social class does not diminish one's standing as a human being.

Low road

+ Assigning negative character stereotypes based solely on low social class: laziness, envy, criminality, stupidity, profligate.

+ Refusing to consider the possibility that the poor do not have a reasonable shot at the American dream that is commensurate with the level of effort they are willing to apply.

+ The notion that poor people deserve their lot because they are inferior human beings.

-------------

Now, in my experience, many conservatives indulge in low road thinking. And, I'm sad to report from my personal experience, usually the last and worst of the low road approaches is the most popular. Many right wing people will readily admit that they view poor people as maggots.

If the Libertarians that post here honestly believe that the poor in this country are free enough that they can apply themselves and have a legitimate chance to realize their potential in the application of mind, body, and spirit -- well, OK, that's already a far superior stance than the prejudice that the poor not only are roadkill but should be roadkill.

Then, it becomes a matter of presenting compelling evidence that the plight of the poor in America runs contrary to libertarian principles.

iowairish--I too am a single mom--for ten years, in my case. I've been all through working two jobs--and getting evicted from my apartment because I couldn't pay the rent, even with two jobs.

When your kids are used to drinking milk, whether it's ideal as a food or not, it's almost unthinkable to deprive them of an ordinary and expected part of their diet.

You folks who have never been single moms have no idea of the scores of small deprivations and humiliations the children of single moms endure: The free lunch ticket at school, no money for fees for extra-curriculars at school, for tickets and transportation to school events, for a band instrument or cheer-leading fees so you child can participate, or for school clothes, movies, sodas with friends after school. Maybe no money for the computer and internet access that is almost essential to their education.

It would be tough to ask these deprived kids to do without milk, too.

At this point, soymilk is no more expensive than regular milk, making that an option for single moms whose kids like soymilk. Mine do--and two of my kids are vegan--making non-milk-drinking a little more acceptable to the others.

But milk is one of the least of your food-budget worries, as a single mom. The more pressing concerns are affording the fresh fruits and vegetables, and fruit juices. Another is finding the time to cook wholesome meals when you're working two jobs.

Single moms are serving their kids Tuna Helper (a concoction composed of refined carbohydrates and artificial flavors, colors, and preservatives with some nice mercury-laden tuna thrown in for good measure), because there is no time for the leisurely preparation of a vegan eggplant parmesan.

Now that I have only one job and one child at home, I make my own soymilk (costs about $2/gallon that way, including electricity), tofu, and tempeh. I grow a lot of my own vegetables. I never could have done this when I had three kids at home and two jobs.