The Shock Doctrine
A film by Alfonso Cuaron and Naomi Klein

short video see below:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/video/2007/sep/07/naomiklein

Yeah Peaceman, TV was both entertaining and fun and we could trust the news. What we see now in our many of our troops and many of our politicians, is a reflection of our society.

Perhaps someday, the next generation will reverse it. ____ If they have a chance.

KEM PATRICK: Terrific memory! I didn't remember which show Desi and Lucy aired first for the debut. Lucile Ball was my favorite female and Jackie Gleason my favorite male comedians. If you can find a copy of "A BISHOP'S CONFESSION' by the late New Jersey columnist and writer, Jim Bishop, he tells a funny story about Gleason and an even funnier one about the singer, Louis Prima.

Everybody looked up to Edward R. Murrow in those days. And he was on MSM! Also, KEM, when we had just the big three (CBS NBC ABC) remember the evening commentaries by Eric Sevarid, John Chancoller, Walter Cronkite, Huntley and Brinkley, Howard K. Smith and Roger Mudd? (sure you do) They didn't need a teleprompter either. Anybody invent a time machine yet?

UN-common-dreams: I agree. Not only the media moguls, but the movie and tv moguls have saturated the industry with unnecessary amounts of violence and gore, all for the sake of 'realism.' Isn't there enough in 'real life?

plaza Toro says:

An order that a soldier deploy to Iraq is a legal order, notwithstanding that the war was illegally started and continued, and he/she must obey it. An order to shoot civilians in a house in Haditha is an illegal order which he/she must not obey and should be prosecuted it he/she does obey.

To say that all US soldiers in Iraq should be prosecuted for war crime merely because they have participated in invasion/occupation of Iraq is to make the pawns pay for what the commanders (up to Bush) have done."

Yes, well-said.

But let us work toward the day that young men, some, still with fuzzy chins and cheeks, are not confronted with such terrible decisions.

#
UN-common-dreams September 6th, 2007 3:38 pm

Think I got it right. My brief missive hasn't come back since sending at 4:37 p.m. EST, 59 minutes after you posted last, as above.

Computers ARE a trip, aren't they?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

citizen 1

The illegal war is not something you prosecute soldiers for. You prosecute those who started the illegal war - ie Powell (who lied), Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld. You prosecute soldiers for offences they commit - ie Haditha, Abu Ghraib, My Lai.

Just as I don't regard you as a criminal because your criminal President has plunged the whole world (not just your country - the USA but the rest of us as well) into this abyss that will plague my grandchildren although they are not Americans and, unlike you, had no say in electing this peabrain, just as I do not feel you should be punished for what your President has dishonestly had your country do, the soldiers who have been misled should not be punished for what their commander has done.

Indeed, on your logic, I and every other non-American on the planet is entitled to ask that you be prosecuted as a war criminal because you (generically as an American) have supported a political system which allows a corrupt peabrain such as Bush to be elected and lead the world into this illegal war - the same system which allows the corrupt Congress where your Democrats are not prepared to impeach Bush - which shows what their real selfish position is.

Bush and their commanders have taken advantage of your military and betrayed their trust by using them for a war that is not legal. But, no more than you, military people do not get to make the decision about how they are to be used. Read my earlier posting re the bargain - soldiers give obedience in return for commanders not misusing them - which includes not using them for illegal wars.

And lets keep this conversation in the realms of reality. Any civilian who has actually gone and openly/blatantly broken the homeland security law to which he/she strongly objects and exposed himself/herself to real prospect of prosecution for that breach can credibly advocate that soldiers should disobey military orders that are, in themselves, not illegal. When they disobey they expose themselves to court martial.

An order that a soldier deploy to Iraq is a legal order, notwithstanding that the war was illegally started and continued, and he/she must obey it. An order to shoot civilians in a house in Haditha is an illegal order which he/she must not obey and should be prosecuted it he/she does obey.

To say that all US soldiers in Iraq should be prosecuted for war crime merely because they have participated in invasion/occupation of Iraq is to make the pawns pay for what the commanders (up to Bush) have done.

cee, I agree with much of what you say and wish to respond in greater depth but I am heading to the mountains for a few days, air out my head a little. It will be tough, no computer, no phone, just the trees and mountain air. What I want to explore can be summed up with a story that Ram Dass, Richard Alpert, told years ago.

I'm paraphrasing;

He was out playing frisbee with a friend when the thought occurred to him,

"the world is full of suffering people, there's famine, war, and hardship of all kinds..........do I still throw the frisbee?"

The dilemma of "doing" vs "being" I've wrestled with my entire life.

Cee you again online.

A-ok, rebelnow - we're complete.

But to tell you the truth, that's why I said at the end of what I wrote: "As the sages say, Sometimes it is time to SHUT UP! LOL …"

I DO feel the agony every morning as I wake up that our world is in the most acute danger it has ever been in, and the suffering and losses to so many not only continue, but more is planned by those who lead the country of my birth, which once upon a time I believed, as did most here and around the globe, that even if we had done terrible things in our history, we continued to move forward with perhaps the best possibility for helping to achieve a peaceful, caring world more than any other nation because of our strength, power and prosperity.

Once upon a time there were presidents ... FDR, Harry Truman, Dwight David Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy ... who really cared about THE PEOPLE and had global visions of how it all could be. Lyndon Johnson's "War on Poverty," if you see the documentaries' documented results in the short years that that was in effect were marvelous for the poor and disenfranchised and people of color, but LBJ was too insecure and pressured to let go of the Vietnam War ... and Jimmy Carter, addressing the nation in his cardigan sweater to demonstrate how you could stay warm when you turned down the thermostat and help out in the oil shortage because of the embargo. It was not publicized much, but THE PEOPLE responded so fully that there was an oil glut. And then Carter got caught up in the hostage shenanigans which we now know was orchestrated, in part, by very familiar names and faces. And both of those Presidents came along when the Music had almost Died for one and had Already Died for the second.

Yes, I do write a lot, and offer various items that might be helpful or help create more awareness and more understanding. Folks on the Board sometimes snipe at each other ... usually an ego thing ... and play "gotcha." We really can't afford that now.

Right at this moment because we are THE PEOPLE we need to make bridges to each other, even on a Board, because everything I read about what's planned, what's coming tells me We're All We've Got to resist, turn things around, make it better ... and that ain't easy and most of us don't know what the hell to do to create our own Surge, our own Revolution.

At this time, most of the old ways don't work, not with a closed-system media, not with the weapons against us from police and security forces, not with a shredded Bill of Rights and dithering elected officials, not with a pill-popping, material-diversion-entranced/ uninformed population, not with a pResident, VICE pResident and COMPANY that is tethered to the vicious Zionist-powered Israeli government that that last, taken all together, is the most destructive, power-mad, ignorant, stupid, unevolved, misguided, greedy, unfeeling, and self-serving cluster of creature-folk with NUKES at the ready that has ever been in history.

So I reach out in my own way to all of you here and on other message boards, ... and I'm doing it again, because I care so deeply and because it's a desperate situation, and I know WE ... you and me ... are our own best hope to connect, spark each other and maybe get some fire going. I've picked up some sparks from many and with them and my own, keep contemplating how to build the fire.

Refrain: "As the sages say, Sometimes it is time to SHUT UP! LOL …"

peace and fire and peace and thanks, rebelnow et al.

Cee: a little more work needed on that 'Robert DiNiro accent' methinks! ;) And I hope the invite to mail wasn't too enigmatic? I'd like to discuss a few things 'off board' as it were. Stay bright, UCD/UK.

Cee, apologies if I offended you. It was very late and I was tired. There is so much to read on the C-D website with all the articles and posts, it's overwhelming sometimes. The Shakespeare quote came to mind midway through reading about the child male/female studies you were referring to. Maybe it's best if I'm tired to let some thoughts go without posting them. I'm somewhat new to this process and still learning about posting etiquette, if there is any. It's not my intension to offend good people like yourself. Though there are some posters I'm all too happy to tangle with, you are not one of them.

I agree, "Beginners Mind...every moment".

Peace as well to you Cee Miracles.

TO: rebelnow September 6th, 2007 3:16 am

"Brevity is the soul of wit". Shakespeare

Just a suggestion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You talkin' to me"? [in my best Robert DiNiro accent]

How 'bout ... for brevity: "We're gonna hunt 'em down. We're gonna get 'em all ... dead or alive!!!!" GWBush ... 9/12/01

Let's see ... currently the INVASION / OCCUPATION has been going on longer than WWII and is projected to continue maybe to 2012 ...

How 'bout Tolstoy's WAR AND PEACE and SHAKESPEARE's incredible output and James Joyce's ULYSSES and the U.S. TAX CODE?

I'd rather take time to thoughtfully explain my position to someone who perhaps misread what I initially stated so that we end up with mutual simpatico. It's called peace-making whenever possible.

Many responses I've read are long; longer than a few of my current ones. If what I'm reading seems tedious, I have choice to skip to the next comment. But I don't suggest to someone that what they have said is too long or too short.

When Salieri convinced the Austrian Emperor that Mozart's work was not up to snuff, the Emperor looked confused, but Salieri pressed on, until the Emperor struggling said [likely because he not want to look the fool] ... "Well maybe ... maybe ... YES! This composition has ... YES! It has TOO MANY NOTES!"

Mozart was told this. "Which notes?" he allegedly said.

peace ... brother/sister Rebelnow

Matt-waisanen:

I have nothing (positive or negative) on troops. But I do have something against troops who willingly (yes, at this stage of game you must be brainless to suggest that you have been fooled) commit war crime (yes, invading and occupying a sovereign country on false pretense, and causing death of innocent civilians as a result is a war crime). So, yes, I repeat, our troops in Iraq are war criminals.

Bring our troops home and prosecute them for war crimes.

Interesting how you justify war crimes of US troops by blaming everyone else. Is lobotomy a prerequisite to becoming a (US) soldier?

Matt-waisanen:
Thanks for your post. I have compassion for how it must feel, -for soldiers to have 'given their all' to their country, - only to then discover that it is / was all pretty much a con to begin with.

And yes, the striving to act in a 'heroic' way is admirable, -a great thing, but what a cruel trick for any government to play on it's people, when that laudable impetus is tapped into merely to enact their bizarre, shambolic nightmares of totally unnecessary warfare.

What a blessing to the world it would be, if all that *human energy*, at present expending in harming others, was instead devoted to *HELPING* our fellow beings! ~ Just imagine that!! :)

– As Buddha pointed out, "Violence is misdirected energy."

You write: "And it is political suicide to suggest that we need to cut military spending. How did we get to that point?"
~ Good question.
I feel that we 'got to that point' because those with a deformed vision of what life is all about have taken their philosophy from 'the darkness' and not from the *Light*. Humanity's greatest teachers have taught that we ought to respect LIFE and all living creatures. But seemingly whilst the likes of us (eg) here at C-D can somewhat tune into that message and live in accord with it, there are others born with some darkness in them which has them run counter to such respect for Life, and so they work with a passion to unpick goodness, and goodwill, and this results in the awful mayhem we see in our world today.

This battle between 'light' and 'dark' - was it ever thus? Maybe so, but still, -your final line is pertinent either way: "Treat the disease not the symptoms."
This is not easy work, due to it's many convoluted complexities and the woeful intransigence of the conservative mindset, but it's absolutely essential, - and achievable, once we renounce our societal addiction to nonentities such as piffle TV, sports overdosing, inebriation, mindless consumerism etc, and give our full focus to the work in hand...

Cee Miracles, a kindred spirit, like to discuss a few positive/creative bits outside CD? Perchance an epigrammatic missive: deepart 2000 (arroba) hot mail. Tanx for yr posts, UCD x

I am someone who has experience within the military. Most of the above posts seem to be non-sympathetic to the soldier who has been placed in a world that most can only imagine.

First, let us get one thing straight: War is an atrocity. You go to war with the warrior's creed and the utmost honorable intentions. Yet, inside of its inhumane conditions, you are faced with the ultimate moral dilemma. War is also a failure of diplomacy. Any critiques as such are thus more appropriate to those that have failed at their diplomatic jobs.

Why do some join the military? The warriors creed? Honor. Discipline. To serve a purpose. Defend something to which we hold sacred? Ideology that many of us signed up to live by. Yet, we were all fooled. My subjective experience of the military is that it has become nothing more than the strong arm of government sponsored corporatism.

Still, many of our young people seek out the hero's journey. They yearn to serve a purpose. And within our industrialized labor system, there is very little chance at completing a hero's journey or at accomplishing a sense of purpose. But that is what keeps recruitment numbers high.

We criticize the very world that we participate in creating.

World War I chemical weapons are used to fertilize the corn that feeds the beef that many of us continue to eat on a daily basis. If you really want to prevent another Iraq, stop eating hamburgers unless you know the person who raised it. Walk more. Stop using fertilizers. Support your community farmers. Write to your legislators for the development of renewable energy, even if it means a windmill in the distant view of your precious bay. Use less energy. Buy fewer new cars. Buy less material goods period.

War IS an atrocity and we are enablers. US military budget is larger than the next 14 biggest spenders COMBINED. And it is political suicide to suggest that we need to cut military spending. How did we get to that point?

There needs to be less focus on isolated situations within the inhumane constructs of war and more serious critique of the collaborative willingness to continue with our so-called "way of life" that encourages our diplomats to make war the basis of our economy.

Treat the disease not the symptoms.

To Damon13 - we have gotten off the specific topic, but I'll answer your last post just to finish up on our discussion, and because in many ways, our discussion has relevancies to TROOPS DISREGARDING RULES and committing atrocities.

Reply by: damon13 September 5th, 2007 9:16 pm

"Cee Miracles, wow you replied to me in straight-forward and pleasant manner. I will do the same."

Well, of course ... I took your bashing good-humoredly because it's fun and I enjoy the opportunity to further define what I have said and to answer the points you make so we can understand what the other is saying better.

"I used the term "New Ager" because that is the one most known for people who preach non-western spirituality in today's society. I'm sure you have heard of the term. It's a mainstream negative term for those who practice a number of various spiritual practices all inclusive. I'll get back to the negative part."

As you undoubtedly know because you do a lot of reading that many so-called New Agers offer very substantive ideas and experiences that we can all learn from. I look at it as I read another's way of thinking, feeling, being in relation to Spirit as finding another facet in a diamond, and I usually say, WOW, I never saw it/thought of it that way before, and then I grow some more and understand more because a different viewpoint or approach is another part of the hologram. Yes, sometimes the New-Age movement gets so commercially crass, and some of the offerings are at a very local-self level that become self-indulgent rather than broadening the viewpoint and understandings. Spirituality For Sale is a contradiction in terms. However, religions jump on that bandwagon often, e.g., buying indulgences to get out of purgatory or hell or whatever ... 'nuf said.

"I too have read probably almost all the offerings since the 60's and I agree it's valuable stuff. I especially love Carlos Castenda. But I have several problems with it's admission into public life and political spheres."

[Have you read John Perkins' best-selling book, "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"? and his other books having to do with shamanism that was part and parcel of the somewhat double life he was leading until he couldn't do it anymore?]

The first being, that it is counterproductive to change soon. You have to admit that we live in a society that sings the praises of a predominately white male christian society. Espousing anti-anglo, femine-superior, non-christian values will only fall on deaf ears. And while I don't think you are really like that, buzzwords such as "Mother Earth", "Non-native" and "Patriarchal" are the fastest ways to get the general public to dismiss you.If your desire is to be one of the first to proclaim new alternatives and be subsequently hussed, that's one thing. But if you want to change the "now", a different strategy needs to be in place.

I speak on a Board or to people I meet about this stuff if I perceive a certain openness and sophistication. I live in a rural, bible-belt community, very provincial and heavy-duty mind sets, so I am careful because I have to be and it's just smart. Many, with very rigid upbringings are afraid, never question even if they might want to, and get defensive very easily. But then there are others where you sense leaky boundaries and they are both scared of their own teachings/learnings and hungry and ready perhaps to hear something else. I find ways to relate, and it has always been that most people find me easy to talk with because I share my own stories, including foibles and screw-ups, without a qualm. I like people and trust people essentially and that comes through, although as the years have gone by I have gotten more "street wise," but I truly believe that the majority of people want to do the right thing and are good at heart. [Shucks ... I'm sounding like an advertisement for the "Diary of Anne Frank." But I DO believe that.]

"Now all about the man bashing. And it's probably going to end as a men are from mars and women from venus. You make some comments about some not so complimentary generalizations about men. Funny enough, intelligent men do the same toward women, we just tend not to say anything. But aside, honestly, wouldn't it be better to unite, than to divide, in this context. i.e. progressive ideas concerning health, safety and progress. From your reply, it isn't the feminine/masculine principle you have problems with, it's rather the linear/holistic that bothers you. I couldn't agree more."

I love men actually. I enjoyed and loved my own father deeply, and we were very much on the same wave length, and likely that is why. ... And yes, you're right in your last sentences. I have realized for a long time that men have tremendous pressures on them to conform to a particular macho and "success" model. An interesting study with about a thousand tots not yet a year old, half being female, half male, found that the male babies were far more emotional than the female babies when the mothers were told to just stand in front of their children a few feet away after playing with them and assume a poker face. [The babies were on a table or counter in slanted back-rest, bucket-seat type thingees.] When the little girl babies couldn't get attention or response from the mother, they whimpered a little and showed some distress, but then began to examine their hands or play with the belt and buckles they were strapped in with or examine the ceiling or the room, and they were fine and seemed to be enjoying themselves. The boy babies, on the other hand, seemed scared and upset and began to cry and got very emotional and some went ballistic and were sobbing and screaming, squirming and thrashing around. And it took some of them ages to be comforted and calm down. [Studies, as I have argued sometimes, seem somewhat immoral, can leave scars and the "trials" should be aborted sooner rather than later.] But it became obvious that boys needed more attention and assurance, than the little girls, were far more emotional, dependent, and less creative about taking care of themselves by finding ways to comfort or enjoy themselves.

Maybe because the mothers and the little girls were the same gender, the little girls did not feel the loss of the mother's attention so acutely. They could see the mother and therefore, they could still see themselves, so to speak. But the boys couldn't identify in the same way, obviously. Also likely it's partly maturational. Girls "get it" faster than boys in elementary school ... up to a point ... and then the boys, depending on their upbringing, I guess, begin to surpass the girls in different ways because other studies indicate that boys are naturally more adventurous and the girls are more content in their familiar circles and with their familiar toys and other possessions. The "nesting instinct" is there. Women's Lib used to say biology is not destiny, but I know myself well, and a good part of my feminine biology/physiology has contributed to my destiny, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

But we program little boys of tender age not to cry, not to express particular feelings ... because that's being a sissy and not being Clint Eastward or a little soldier at 1 or 2. I see Dads doing that all the time with their sons. BE A BIG BOY! STOP CRYING! The Dad seems embarrassed. To save his own face, then he gets angry with his boy, tells him he's a sissy, and sometimes then threatens to smack him or does smack him or gets him home and hits him with a belt. What if boys were treated as tenderly as girls initially and their emotionalism was accepted and worked with? Likely then they wouldn't shut down so much later on in life trying to be Mr. Tough Guy on top of all the problems, and operate with restricted and denied emotions. Shaming a little boy who is crying creates men wearing masks who have been shut off at the pass so to speak. And that makes for a much more limited life and emotional life that affects wives, girlfriend, other family members, children, co-workers, etc., and is truly detrimental to relationships of all kinds, including those with the greater human family of nations and individuals.

And, of course, I'm not talking about all men here. But particular cultures, especially ours with the particular male icons we have celebrated for so long, has hurt the full personal development of most males to have that healthy, holistic balance of male-female principles. Not to measure up to that "HE-MAN" model and also not to meet various cultural standards of SUCCESS! creates frustration, and frustration is acted out or released in such things as domestic violence, pornography, child molestation, getting off vicariously watching fights, football, hockey, the more violent the better, ... all the way to dropping bombs on other people, ... because the poor guys can't talk about their emotions, their feelings, their hurts, their own longings ... because it's a SISSY thing to do and they always have to prove themselves as REAL MEN. Their original shame and being shamed, if unaddressed, leads to shameless behavior because there is a wall of denial around their naturally loving and needing-love, tender hearts.

And a number is done on girls too in the tweener, teen-age years. I know that one. BEHAVE! A good girl acts thus and so ... Always smile; don't be angry, etc.

A Light Bulb moment! ... Perhaps this is why veterans often look back on their war years as something special, and do talk about the closeness they felt with their buddies. In the intense climate of war, with all the fear, excitement and occasional triumphs, the men ARE brothers and fathers to each other, and they share deep feelings frequently that I cannot do in ordinary societal living. They loved their buddies, and they often can say that or allude to that comfortably. They cover each other's back; share tight quarters, and see each other every day for most of the day. They'll do something spontaneously and truly noble to save and protect a comrade. All of that is an expression of love, and sharing a war and a battle makes that possible. WOW! And when they get home, they go back to the poker face and don't like to talk about it much because nobody can understand like the buddies they loved and miss for the rest of their lives.

"On to noah's ark. I'm surprised you didn't see the subtly of this. Christians HATE HATE HATE when people of alternative faiths include biblical references. And as an agitator I couldn't miss the opportunity. I, too live in the woods,seriously in them, in Montana. Lots of deer and turkeys, occasional bears and even a mountain lion."

Well, I didn't see it as a Noah's Ark reference. It's what I live in except for the elephants. But I never encountered that kind of HATE, HATE, HATE except on the word EVOLUTION. As one Christian man said to me angrily and menacingly, after he asked whether I was saved [and I always say, yes, or definitely], "I hope you don't believe in EVILution," and on and on he went ... Depending, in such situations, I usually beat-feet as subtly and kindly and as rapidly as I can.

"Oh and the "Star Wars" comment, I love what you wrote in your reply. Cheney is soo Darth Vader. I'm surprised I haven't seen it done on Saturday night live. So why did I bash you on it? Simply on intellectual inconsistency. When any of us is making a serious point about atrocities, the things that deeply affect the human psyche, our souls so to speak, media metaphors , no matter how true, seem contrite."

"Contrite" means penitent or repentant, and I know I wasn't feeling that. Perhaps you felt that I was soft-pedaling or making light of the atrocity topic, but I really was just flying in my own space and for me, the Star Wars images bridged or flowed from what I was saying and was an appropriate metaphor. My style as a person, as a very verbal person and as a writer and as a creative being in different media tends towards the creative colorful, the sudden shifts to side paths that lead back to the main road. I think and see on many levels. Which does not mean, however, that I always get it exactly right. I don't.

I have written papers that are so scholarly that reading them years later, I have a hard time at first understanding what I'm saying because I was pushing at the intellectual limits and wrote in the preferred style that is dry, precise and impressively, meticulously complicated and ordered at the same time. I got A-plusses. But when I'm free-styling, free-floating, then I'm more inclined to let it all flow and sometimes with a sudden shift to the intriguing side path for a moment or two. I got A-plusses and publication for that style too. I talk the same way. We're here. ... Oh, let's go over there for a moment." Not in so many words, but in my own unique processing. Elements of surprise generally turn up in my free-style, more informal writings.

"So too finalize. While I support an individual's effort for spirituality or even an atheist's quest to find meaning, ultimately, each of our own realizations do NOT make it "de facto". It is the element of human hubris, that I, in my annoying way, try to fight."

One's experience is one's experience, Damon. And some experiences do not lend themselves to explanations. They just are, in the broadest sense. Because of particular experiences, one knows that one knows that one knows that one knows ... etcetera ... what one did not know before. And in particular realms or dimensions, one cannot impose these unexpected gifts of knowings on others. As it has happened through centuries, trying to do that often creates havoc because always there are arguments about what does this scriptural passage mean? "It means this." "No, it means that!" "We must take it literally." No, it's metaphorical." ..... As the sages say, Sometimes it is time to SHUT UP! LOL ...

Beginner's Mind ... every moment ...

US war criminals (aka US troops in Iraq) in action. They are definitely not demons, but simple war criminals

Cee Miracles, wow you replied to me in straight-forward and pleasant manner. I will do the same.

I used the term "New Ager" because that is the one most known for people who preach non-western spirituality in today's society. I'm sure you have heard of the term. It's a mainstream negative term for those who practice a number of various spiritual practices all inclusive. I'll get back to the negative part.

I too have read probably almost all the offerings since the 60's and I agree it's valuable stuff. I especially love Carlos Castenda. But I have several problems with it's admission into public life and political spheres.

The first being, that it is counterproductive to change soon. You have to admit that we live in a society that sings the praises of a predominately white male christian society. Espousing anti-anglo, femine-superior, non-christian values will only fall on deaf ears. And while I don't think you are really like that, buzzwords such as "Mother Earth", "Non-native" and "Patriarchal" are the fastest ways to get the general public to dismiss you.If your desire is to be one of the first to proclaim new alternatives and be subsequently hussed, that's one thing. But if you want to change the "now", a different strategy needs to be in place.

Now all about the man bashing. And it's probably going to end as a men are from mars and women from venus. You make some comments about some not so complimentary generalizations about men. Funny enough, intelligent men do the same toward women, we just tend not to say anything. But aside, honestly, wouldn't it be better to unite, than to divide, in this context. i.e. progressive ideas concerning health, safety and progress. From your reply, it isn't the feminine/masculine principle you have problems with, it's rather the linear/holistic that bothers you. I couldn't agree more.

On to noah's ark. I'm surprised you didn't see the subtly of this. Christians HATE HATE HATE when people of alternative faiths include biblical references. And as an agitator I couldn't miss the opportunity. I, too live in the woods,seriously in them, in Montana. Lots of deer and turkeys, occasional bears and even a mountain lion.

Oh and the "Star Wars" comment, I love what you wrote in your reply. Cheney is soo Darth Vader. I'm surprised I haven't seen it done on Saturday night live. So why did I bash you on it? Simply on intellectual inconsistency. When any of us is making a serious point about atrocities, the things that deeply affect the human psyche, our souls so to speak, media metaphors , no matter how true, seem contrite.

So too finalize. While I support an individual's effort for spirituality or even an atheist's quest to find meaning, ultimately, each of our own realizations do NOT make it "de facto". It is the element of human hubris, that I, in my annoying way, try to fight.

Doug Lago September 5th, 2007 12:28 am
The POINT.

Ditto on that.

Supporters and enablers of the Bush-Cheney Crime Syndicate believe it's perfectly okay to kill innocent Muslims including women and children -- even though they have no ties to terrorism.

al-Qaida was not in Iraq before the U.S. attacked it; however, Bush and his loyal backers LIE and say "THEY have been blowing up our embassies and boats." It was NOT Iraqis who blew up any embassies or boats -- it was the Israelis that attacked the USS Liberty in 1967:

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/March_2004/0403009.html "To add insult to injury, Congress, to this day, has failed to hold formal hearings on Israel's attack on this American ship. No official investigation of Israel's attack has ever permitted the testimony of the surviving crew members."

The right-wingers lie so much that I'm surprised they don't try to blame the Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh on the Iraqis. Perhaps they'll get around to it in a few years with their revisionist history.

Another lie they repeat is that "We're finding weapons little by little in Iraq," to try to justify the WMD claim. More lies: "Iraq planned to attack the United States." What shameless liars. And tell me, what country doesn't have weapons to defend themselves with??

PEACEMAN, yes indeed, the very first Playhouse 90 show was (Requiem For A Heavyweight), which gave us some wonderful lessons in love and humility. There was little violence in TV then, it was not allowed, some favorites were, I love Lucy, Jack Benny, The Jackie Gleason show, Dianna Shore with, see the USA in your Chevrolet and others like that. On the news we had the Walter R Murrows, who nailed Senator 'tail gunner' Joseph McCarthy to the wall and stopped his Nazi like investigations. By and large, The press was free and truthful.

President Truman ended racial discremination in the military and America was stepping onto the road towards being a true Democracy. We sure didn't stay on the road very long and now we're mired in the mud in Iraq and the road to Democracy is in the far distance.

Hi Coco, good for you babe. You haven't missed anything, except there are a few of the old re-runs once in awhile.

The US empire has to demonstrate for the rest of the world that when it invades nations and murders and robs foreigners in their own land it does it the "right" way. So a few US underlings will suffer as sacrificial lambs to prove that point? The real "joke" is on the rest of the underlings who will suffer from the effects of DU and emotional trauma for the rest of their lives, not to mention the millions of foreigners who will suffer even more greatly.

From the American military, murder and abuse of enemy soldiers and civilians is nothing "new."

It is long over due that we citizens recognize the brutality of war and the American military role in that brutality.

Indeed, we must understand and appreciate that we (the people) are responsible for letting this continue.

From the main article: "...testified he heard Burke say before the shooting, "It's payback time."
Well, it will be, -for ALL those who have acquiesced in known (or unknown / unrecorded) murders and harm to their fellow beings. No one can escape 'divine justice' (aka: Karma), which in Christian terms is the "As you sow, so will you reap" principle.

Gandhi: brilliant posting, thankyou

Cee Miracles: "What goes around comes around" -Yup! And thanks for yr passionate response to govern-mental madness.
I also agree with you when you write: "...and the New Age is not new at all. The Ancients knew and practiced all that seems such a revelation today. But it's valuable stuff..." ~ I wholly agree!

and:
" ...ancient, practical, and intelligent in terms of working with the Earth and its life forms and patterns and processes, rather than destroying, raping, poisoning, mutilating, killing, ... which is not very intelligent." ~ Spot on!

Also, excellent points you (sanely!) make about the gender roles.
Overall, from all you've written above, you seem like a good friend of mine. -I too hold creativity in high esteem and have a deep love / reference of the natural world.

jjpeter: "The "plague" will come visit us America, and it will be indiscriminate in the killing."

~others too have mentioned things along the same lines. No one wishes any nation to be 'visited' by tragedy, but Nature / God / Gaia, (call it what we will), cannot abide such abhorrent, wanton destruction of LIFE upon this tiny blue planet.

Just as with infants, a race or nation who determinedly refuses to listen to the 'Theory' (-via humanity's various Teachers) will then learn from sobering practical experience. It cannot be otherwise, or life / existence would just be a joke, (~which it very much isn't)

Peaceman: "Until we reject the macho man image, the violence will continue."
-Agree. This barbarity will continue until we RADICALLY change our consciousness. Media moguls are part of the ugly, intransigent factor holding humanity back from it's natural, healthy progression.

There is a huge amount of BEAUTY on this planet, ~ (as I write that line I have the lyrics from Louis Armstrong's song "WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD" running through my head).
And yet... here among our race we have seriously deranged madcaps who's sole aim in life seems to be to wreck every good thing in existence.

Our challenge is to try to help all those who are lost to their ghastly nightmare vision of the world, to see that there are *alternative* ways of living and thinking and being.

A slow process (!) but one of the most necessary and important things we could, should (and must) do.
And along the way, we ought at every opportunity, try to quell the torrent of violent effluent injected into our children's heads by the sordid mEss media outlets and do all we can to ensure that *wholesome* alternatives are broadcast, so that the upcoming generations won't be tainted in the same ways as before.

Cee Miracles: Great essays today. Very good!

KEM PATRICK: Three decades is an enviable record. You have a few years on me but you gotta admit that the first decade of television did have some quality shows. Remember Desilu Playhouse? For one?

BeingSpied24/7: They are not heros. Absolutely not! Until we reject the macho man image, the violence will continue. There is no draft but people join the military for various reasons. (mostly financial) If they really think they are being trained for an exciting new career plus the FTA (fun travel and adventure) segment, they haven't been paying attention. Ignorance is not bliss!

shakker: Good point. We did have higher standards in WW2. Your Dad knew right from wrong and took the moral high ground.

Um' gonna say it again, folks. Don't go to work or shop next week, on September 11. IMAGINE millions of us involved in this peaceful, passive, positive action?

AUBERON

the answer is WHAT !!!!!!!!

KEM PATRICK

i haven't had a television for 30 years because of all the violence on it. how can it not instill these traits into developing minds??? like faux, cnn etc if you bombard the sheeple with it day in and day out, they believe it in the end...........

Reply to:
damon13 September 4th, 2007 9:38 pm

"LOL, you know I hate the re-hashed lunacy raves of the "new agers", and I try to disenfranchise them from maybe the saner of us."

Thanks for the KUDOS! but why do you label me a "new ager," Damon?

My spiritual knowings/wisdoms are from my experiences, not from the Christian religion of my childhood, although my memories of my church are happy ones, and I am grateful for my familiarity with the bible and other scriptural writings as good background if we want to have a deeper understanding of history and cultures. My childhood church was also the place where I first understood what hypocrisy was. I hope you don't dismiss or knock the possibility of experiences that cannot be conjured up by the intellect and are spiritual, since that is the word we use. They just are what they are. Also I have read a great deal of offerings since the '60's, and the New Age is not knew at all. The Ancients knew and practiced all that seems such a revelation today. But it's valuable stuff. Check out John Perkins of Economic Hit Man fame and his travels with the Shuars of Ecuador in the Rain Forests and Shape-Shifting, and going back and forth in time, and spiritual healings, and all that good stuff ... ancient, practical, and intelligent in terms of working with the Earth and its life forms and patterns and processes, rather than destroying, raping, poisoning, mutilating, killing ... which is not very intelligent.

"But Cee Miracles, WOW, you really went off the deep end tonight. You got to do some MAN bashing, ..."

It's the patriarchal, hierarchical system that I'm bashing. And the fact that most men of the non-native people's tradition are limited in that their thinking is linear rather than wholistic, and they use one-half of their brain mostly for goal-oriented, allegedly rational thinking. So far I have not been impressed by the us of the rational part in many so-called world leaders. Women are rarely mentioned, although they make up slightly more than half of the world's population, but are subsumed in a general term such as MANkind. How about HUMANkind? I do interrupt speakers and others and suggest often that HUMANKIND is perhaps more inclusive.

I mean, let's face it, women have been second-class citizens [and not even voting citizens at the beginnings and throughout most of the history of our country] for how many millennia after the Goddess cultures were destroyed? and pagan, earth-mother-type women were burnt at the stake, etc., as witches by the thousands and for other reasons by a very patriarchal Roman Catholic Church. And stoned or burnt with acid even now for getting raped by a male family member, but the woman is punished because SHE violated the family honor. Now that is really rational. Wouldn't ya' say, Damon?

You know all the stuff about employments' glass ceilings, and lower pay for the same work, and stuff like it's okay to beat your wife because she is a possession, etc. ... So sure, if women, including myself, didn't feel a little testy because of all the male-oriented stuff, and an earth being destroyed by MEN in charge, when most women know that their dual-functioning brain and their ability to multi-task as a given, especially after we have kids, and work, and go to school, at the same time, and take care of the man, the house, and cook and clean, and all the rest, and our ability to experience and see wholistically and intuit because we are more in touch with our emotions, and we are more conciliatory and work together naturally without having to call it THE TEAM! ... perhaps makes us better suited to solve the world's problems? Just maybe. But then you guys like those weapons. WE KNOW WHERE YOUR MISSILE IS! [old song from The Great Peace March]. Can't you just relax and not have to be proving that you're the bigger and stronger Gorilla than the other guy? What's it gonna' take?

Men who have both a strong feminine principle operating along with their strong masculine principle ... like Jesus and Gandhi and Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Martin Luther King, Jr., ... Wendell Berry, John Lennon, Brad Pitt, Dennis Kucinich, John Edwards, for example, were, are, and would be far more effective leaders than the tunnel-visioned, lame-brained, linear-thinking male creatures that we have now. GW at times seems limited to his early reptilian brain stem and early mammalian brain. Those twenty-five or so years of real hard-drinking may have cooked the rest.

Anyway, I admire much about many men and many women, especially if it is obvious that they've got a healthy balance of masculine-feminine principles that appropriately guide their behavior and their thinking and their Being who they are and what they are. Because of unquestioned, unworked cultural conditionings, such men and women are usually somewhat rare birds.

"... you made a weird reference to Noah's ark; possums, the hawks, the elephants, the wolves, the ants, bees and butterflies and skunks,..."

I happen to live on 90 acres with lots of woods, grasslands, streams, etc. Other than the elephants I mentioned, I've learned much from the animals and insects and whatever and am close to them and the Mother who births offspring like crazy, whether plant or animal. And of course, most all of nature involves a sexual and creative process of fertilization and reproduction, and there is the balance of masculine-feminine principles operating all of the time.

"... you brought up some psychopathic animal murdering about frogs."

Yeah, Bush did that. One of his enjoyable boyhood pleasures.

"You didn't forget about MOTHER EARTH, which hehe, more resembles Father Earth i.e. scientific earth."

The earth just is. Sure if we want to study various aspects, that's scientific inquiry and the earth and sky and space are great laboratories. The creative force that is masculine and also feminine has brought it all into being. How and when ... can be hypothesized and studied, but nobody really knows where is the beginning and where is the end, and how did eternity begin, etc.

That's the FOREVER adventure.

"But how did your man hating pseudo rational mind also include a "star wars" reference? KUDOS! My mission is half way complete."

Well, good. Creative people, creative artists ... including science fiction writers, painters, musicians, film directors, and all the rest always have a leg up into the future. They both intuit what's coming as they create and also help shape the culture. Creative people, creative artists are generally visionaries. Some are aware of it; some are not. Leonardo DaVinci and his flying machine sketches;Jules Verne ... hey, the Nautilus came into being; Ray Bradbury and the Martian Chronicles; and StarWars ... and that's a truly old and classic story ... the Polarities ... good and evil and everything in between. The bionic heart and bloodless visage and strange, controlled voice of Dick Cheney with that heavy breathing ... Darth with thinning hair; Richard Perle ... slither ... if ever a serpent came out of a tree and hissed to tempt someone to destruction and to destroy or that strange closing-in room with the serpentine creatures under the water ... So many of the Robotic generals ... Hey, it's StarWars time ... and the heroes? and the heroines? and Obi Wan Kenobi? Fill in the blanks.

KEM PATRICK September 4th, 2007 9:47 pm

It's o'possum in my dictionary, but understand possum maybe used by the undereducated oafs and highly educated "new agers".

LOL - It's both opossum and possum in my dictionary, but if the proper name is opossum, which I know it is, then 'possum is correct because the apostrophe indicates the omission of a letter from a word. ... And I mentioned 'possums because I'm currently feeding a 'possum couple who hibernated in my shed and on the porch, as singles, in the winter, perhaps have had their children who might have moved on already to parts unknown, but Mama and Papa have hung around fairly close this summer. A very dry spring and most of summer, and then enough rain to start the budding and the blooming and now the early apples and such are available, they'll not be so hungry. But we're sort of used to each other. [Now how is that for a once-upon-a-time New York City, born and bred gal?]

Well, I've been writing up a storm today, and this is a bit of an aside, not necessarily appropriate to the topic, but it was fun.

And, DAMON, did you get my last message a while back when you bashed me a bit? I answered a day later when I went back to that essay to check the comments.

In the meantime, fellas, when we do more Firing of the Grid later on this fall, just stay open. Anything is possible. - namaste ...

In Macbeth, Shakespeare wrote, "We but teach bloody instructions, which being taught return to plague the inventor." In those brief lines, Shakespeare eloquently sums up what bushcon has tries to achieve in six + years of incompetent, clumsy, criminal, arrogant governance.

The "plague" will come visit us America, and it will be indescriminant in the killing.

I maintain the stance that the US soldiers should all be subjected to an international war-crime trial. I cannot bring myself to see our troops as war heroes, because the war itself is an illegal, criminal war, a war of aggression, against a country that had "nothing" (Bush's word in this context) to do with 9/11 (a false flag attack), an imperialists' war launched by an empire.

Bush will go to heaven, ___ hell wouldn't have him.

The ideo-tainment industry already provided all the indoctrination needed for these young men & women. It didn't begin with "24" -- for years they've seen how "tough" interrogation is the way to go in order to 'save lives'. Every single show, every single film tells them that legal procedures are a fussy waste of time, that the bad guys always ues technicalities to walk, and that the only justice comes when someone grabs a gun from an officer, or a cop decides to disregard the idea of innocent-till-proven-guilty -- they KNOW who did it -- and the same is true whether it's a law show or a film about a brave commando going after "terrorists". This shit has been produced by Hollywood for the last thirty years; "Dirty Harry" provided the prototype.

This is the physical expression, in police & military power, of the de-regulated capitalist state. Taxes & regulations, in this sadistic fapitalist fantasy, are restraints on noble entrepreneurs who only want to be free & happy; a person who wants to rigorously tax wealth is the equivalent to those who want to prevent armies from "doing their jobs" -- a tax regulator, like an international criminal tribunal, can only abet the 'terrorists', the 'criminals', who are trying to harm the good people; and only running roughshod over legal limitations can one be the super-savior, the one who comes to save the day.

damon13 writes"I was wondering if there were any commenters out there that had some first hand knowledge of similar war 'mob mentality'?

Personally no, but I recommend J. Glenn Gray's "The Warriors, Reflections on Men in Battle". Gray was drafted in 1941, the same day he was granted a PhD in Philosophy from Columbia. His book is a personal, and philosophical treatise on his experiences in WW11. As Hannah Arendt writes in the forward it's about..."'inhuman cruelty' and 'superhuman kindness', not as stereotype opposites but as simultaneously present in the same person, (for "war comprises the greatest opposites into the smallest space and the shortest time")...

I have had numerous conversations with people who have fought in WW2, the Korean War, and the Vietnam war, and nearly every one has a horror story of some kind, from watching their buddies hack the heads off dead enemy soldiers and removing their gold teeth, to exhausted fighter pilots strafing civilians just "for the hell of it", to using white phosphorus indiscriminately to burn up anyone and everyone in their way. The horror stories in war are endless.

It still remains to be heard, what stories these people will bring from Iraq. They will not be pretty. The troops will be scared for life. They will be haunted by the nightmares they are now participating in.

I believe in personal responsibility and I don't excuse their behavior but I hold their so called "superiors" (from the commanding officers in the field on up to Mr Bush) primarily responsible. This madness is truly reprehensible, and Mr Bush and his accomplices will have blood on their hands for a very long time.

Look in the mirror Mr Bush. The devil is your enemy and he is you!

The POINT

Is that none of this would be necessary if the criminals in charge of this country hadn't gone into Iraq in the first place. Every atrocity, every murder, every act of torture, every car bomb, every starved child all started with the same set of lies and propaganda that brought Hell itself down upon the people of Iraq.

Pointing out how soldiers act under stressful conditions is nothing new. But if the soldiers are to be punished then surely some punishment should go to the people that put them there to begin with. Hitler never shoved anybody into the gas chamber himself you know....

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

George W. Bush and Co. are turning everyone mad.

saywhat said: "Remember Vietnam? All the same.

How very true. The Mai Lai Massacre (Colin Powell helped cover up) was only one of many. VC captives were questioned in helicopters and then thrown out. A village suspected of helping the VC (they had little choice) could be bombed or napalmed and troops would then come in an kill anything that was still moving. Similar things happened in Laos and Cambodia via the Nixon/Kissinger secret bombing campaigns. They were never charged with war crimes. ETC.

One important consideration is what part RACISM plays in these situations.

Despite their crimes, we did not torture German WWII captives of deliberately kill German civilians or kill thier children by denying them the essentials of life such as clean drinking water. Perhaps we saw them as being like us as white Europeans ?

The racist American history of violence started with crimes against Native Americans and centuries of crimes against blacks which finally slowed down in the 1960's. ETC.

Change is possible. The Germans refused to join us in Iraq and the old Imperial British are pulling out. The French learned their less in Algeria and Vietnam. Time will tell.

Morals and humanity are not usually lost all at once. Slowly, the military, society, leaders act in such ways to chip away at the morals. Later upon reflection many of these people who have acted outside their own moral standards suffer.

My father was in WW2. Years after the war he didn't talk about the glory but about how they went into the homes abandoned by the people trying to run from the war. He was appalled that they burned the furniture for fuel and ripped off the doors to use as covers for the fox holes. He always felt bad that they destroyed things that the retreating German army had not destroyed. He was trained and reinforced in his belief that American soldiers held themselves to a higher standard.

From what I see of this professional army and mercenaries they have set their standards very low and are pushing lower all the time under the leadership now in command.

A soldier's oath is to obey all lawful orders. That means that a soldier has to know the law---i.e., take responsibility for him/herself even though in a uniform. That's what makes a democracy's army different from the others...the only thing. And Vietnam tried to say: This can only happen if you take part, if you personally consent to do it. So once again, out of lack of teaching, out of deliberate forgetting, young men who want to serve end up doing the dirty work of empire

It's o'possum in my dictionary, but understand possum maybe used by the undereducated oafs and highly educated "new agers".

LOL, you know I hate the re-hashed lunacy raves of the "new agers", and I try to disenfranchise them from maybe the saner of us. But Cee Miracles, WOW, you really went off the deep end tonight. You got to do some MAN bashing, you made a weird reference to Noah's ark; possums, the hawks, the elephants, the wolves, the ants, bees and butterflies and skunks, you brought up some psychopathic animal murdering about frogs. You didn't forget about MOTHER EARTH, which hehe, more resembles Father Earth i.e. scientific earth. But how did your man hating pseudo rational mind also include a "star wars" reference? KUDOS! My mission is half way complete.

What ever happened to the wining of hearts and minds.

We need a major revolution.... the world can't wait much longer.

... and how many times did I hear from various pulpits throughout my former lives before I woke up about MAN [sic] being God's crowning creation? ... and all the nonsense because we are conscious beings we are superior to the "animals"? ... and MAN [sic] gets to steward,oversee, RULE everything and anything that moves or grows? ... and as the interpretations go to harness and tame NATURE?!
[Fat chance on that last. Katrinas to the 7th powers and tsunamis may be comin' globally one of these days because of our stupidity.]

At this point, I'll take my dog, the 'possums, the hawks, the elephants, the wolves, the ants, bees and butterflies and skunks over the "noble huMAN," with the exception of particular early and currently extant indigenous peoples who understood and still understand that everything is interdependent; everything that is created is part of the whole, the Oneness of things, and humans are just part of the process, but because humans do have a particular kind of consciousness, they can consciously honor all of CREATION and THAT which has been CREATED.

GWB has often talked about US of the West as "civilized," and those others? ...well, we have to teach them democracy and about freedom and how to be civilized. Every time he talked about our being civilized, I pictured him as a kid enjoying the bloody explosions after he stuffed firecrackers in the mouths of frogs. NOW he has his new-style HYDROGEN BUNKER-BUSTING NUKES which he chortled over not too long ago. I'm sure he gets off on the thought of those bombs entering MOTHER EARTH and the explosions that will take out not just nu-klar hardware and laboratories in Iran, but the Islamic religious leaders, that nasty Iranian president, the whole Iran militia and the workers and their families and children. SHOCK AND AWE ... THE BLITZKREIG ... THE LIGHTNING STRIKE ... DE JA VU ... ALL OVER AGAIN! and Israel then gets to finish off the Palestinians, and Syria and Lebanon ... just enough to bring the last two heel ... [and you Saudis might want to watch your butts too] and then the Middle East will be LIBERATED ... and control of ALL THE OIL IS OURS! REALLY BIG celebration at the Bohemian Grove next summer in California and just before that the august attendees of the BILDERBERG GROUP will likely toast each other with the finest champagne.

Someone said it above. The most vile collection of psychopaths are in charge. Absent any decency, normal human feelings, without compassion or empathy, shallow and ignorant of history and culture through the ages, they crave power and wealth and dominating and that, obviously, is what turns them on. Maybe there should be random "stings" in the White House and Congressional bathrooms just after arguments and votes to continue THE SURGE!

Of course, these alien beings [and it is Darth Vader time, folks] want the armed services to produce killing machines. They could care less about these soldiers and their victims. The soldiers are but to use; the victims are in the way. That's all. Of course, none of them of the White House Gang have been to war. As Cheney said, when asked why he was deferred so many times and did not serve in Vietnam, ... "Well, I had better things to do."

What goes around comes around, and it does seem we are coming down to the wire. Many marvelous human beings out there; some right on this message board ...

For those of us who see clearly, and sometimes around corners, we just have to keep on keepin' on with whatever we are doing to stop the madness and turn the page to a new and really different chapter for all humankind and all the living things and the Mother herself.

It is quite clear that most journalists and commentators do not understand that rules of engagement (ROE) are not the law but guidance on how to put the law in practice. That ignorance is evident whenever journalists start babbling about rules of engagement - as thye generally do whenh speaking to military people about recent purported atrocities. And I have even seen people who should know better showing the same complete ignorance when they described the Geneva Conventions as rules of engagement.

ROE, in their true and non-perverted state, limit what a soldier may do even though the law may allow him/her to do more. The law limits what a soldier may do by prescribing what he/she may lawfully do. The ROE then impose further limits within what may lawfully be done. ROE cannot, in a society which stands for the rule of law, authorize people to perform illegal acts. The Nazi Commissar Order and Commando Order equate to ROE which purported to authorized soldiers to act illegally - but they were promulgated by a regime that did not stand for the rule of law.

And for lawyers to say the "rules of engagement are clear .... in favor of soldiers" demonstrates what appears to be a complete lack of comprehension of what ROE are meant to be or do. And if the lawyers do not understand the nuances of what they are dealing with there is little hope for a trial which deals with the real issues. Their uninformed statements also create sufficient confusion of the real issues to allow those up the command chain to remain unaccountable.

Further, if perception of hostility (alone) merits deadly action (against civilians and those out of combat) under the ROE (as the lawyer(s) is/are reported as saying) then the ROE are illegal. Alternatively, if that is what the soldiers perceive them to mean that, then the soldiers' training is abysmal and the trainers/commanders are culpable for that lack of training.

It is just as well the US did not sign up to the 1977 Protocols - had it done so the US military would have had an additional treaty based obligation to train its soldiers in the law that applied to their trade. As it is, as part of the bargain made when soldiers take the oath, commanders have an obligation to arm their soldiers with all those things that will reduce the soldiers' exposure to harm. One of the harms to which a soldier is subject is the risk of prosecution if he breaks the law in the performance of his duty. Commanders are therefore obliged to provide soldiers with legal skills to ensure that they act legally and are therefore not exposed to risk of criminal prosecution (putting aside completely the fact that soldiers who are poorly trained in this area are likely to go out and kill/maim/rape/rob people who are supposed to be protected - people who should not be touched as they are not part of the fight - that the decency and rule of law we say we are defending mandates that we should not harm - and the soldiers are doing it in our name)

By way of explanation, when soldiers take their oath it is a bargain. They will give that obedience to orders that is necessary if armed forces are to be effective in combat in return for which their commanders (in the US case all the way up to the President) will not betray them by sending them into illegal war or exposing them to any greater risk that is necessary in the national interest. Illegal orders are another matter - a personal matter. Going off to fight in an illegal war is not something for which soldiers are culpable - that is something for commanders. In order to have a viable military you cannot have soldiers questioning legality or desirability of any particular conflict in which they are to be involved and that is why there is that bargain attached to the oath.

If the US is not going to train its soldiers properly in relation to the issues outlined in the article then perhaps, as Pheneger implies, publicity is the answer. Publicity of heavy penalties may (as Voltaire said about the 1757 shooting execution of Admiral Byng on the Monarque in Portsmouth harbour following his court martial for, essentially, losing a battle)be of value "pour encourager les autres".

Just remember the bush administration is run by simple but extremely evil and vile people that support war, killing, and torture at home and abroad. These are the vilest, foulest rulers to ever have usurped power.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. - Aristotle

What apsolute madness,we send our yung men to camps to learn how best to kill people. Then we try them for not doing it the right way,as if bombs pick and choose who lives and who dies.Iraq had a better country with Saddam as thier leader than with the BUSH CRIME FAMILY leading the way killing thousands in oder to save them.

I got an email from ROBERT JENSEN who has just published an important book that explores pornography in its relationship to male violence. Sounds fascinating. (I'll retrieve and post the title later...)

There is a problem here. These cases are barely the tip of the iceberg as far as the number or civilians killed by occupation forces. Though difficult, we must not only try and concieve what that means but admit it must be true from all the evidence.

Right now in Afghanistan and Iraq the majority of casualties are those hit from the air (largely unreported). There has been a 600% increase in air attacks through the surge with the busiest airport in th4 world just North of the iraqi capital. Neither country has any air force. The Taliban are killed in Afghanistan by NATO and under the UN mandate the coalition of the willing are killing insurgents in Iraq so we don't have to fight them on our shores.

'Don't you see? Can't you people see? These people hate our values and our freedoms. They are evil and must be defeated. 'Bring em on' cause we are ready for them. "You're either with us or against us". We support the democratically elected governments and support the people's choice. We have no wish to remain or to steal their resources. We are a peace loving peoples of the international community who support the security forces of the respective governments in their fight against international terrorists. In short we love the people being free at last and we will stay the course. Believe you me this war against terrorism will go on forever if necessary, but we will not shirk our responsibilities. Just remember what happened when we left Vietnam before the job was done and words like "re-education camps" "boat people" and "the killing fields" were introduced to our vocabulary. Well not on my watch as Commander in Chief, War President and The Decider. No not on my watch by golly!.' GBA

JJPETER: I agree about the karmic rebound.
KEM: Good points regarding how violence permeates our culture beginning to inculcate tender minds in such insidious ways.
GANDHI: A lot to think about. I appreciate your informed postings.

Gandhi
I agree with everything you said. However, the reason the bush administration declared the war on the innocent Iraqi people was not to bring them freedom; we have no freedom in America. It was money and greed. The money that can be made by the defense contractors (the bush cronies) and the money that can be made by the oil companies (more bush cronies). There are mysterious complex situations we must deal with, however; this is a very simply one, with simply reasons, and simple motives.

""Wars are messy by their very nature. These are dangerous circumstances, and the fog of war is out there," said Pheneger, who served in Vietnam. "But it's perfectly obvious that there is no rule of engagement that would authorize someone to kill someone in custody."

I remember seeing precisely that in a cheesey SF tv show that aired a couple of years ago. The macho "hero", a Major, shot the captured enemy through the bars of his cell. In the next episode, nothing was said about it. Nothing at all. He was promoted to Lt Col.

This is how the heroes of stories, whom
adolescents regard as role models, behave.

Add to that something else - much angst here about the gun cult in teenage gangs in the UK. And as I heard a news story about it, I drove past the poster for a movie, The Shooter, which featured a big, black hand gun.

The whole of our society is rotten with these violent, vindictive, vengeful fetishes.

We were the country who invented the type of war using civilians as cover. Remember our minutemen heroes firing heroically from behind trees, fences etc. killing the Redcoats as they retreated into their 'green zone' (Boston). Then they melted away to their civilian homes and took shelter among the anonymity of a civilian populace who supported their efforts to toss the occupiers.

The Brish Army and their mercenaries committed torture and 'search and seizures' reminiscent of our Iraq tactics. Of course the heroes and their allies were known to scalp the Brits.

Nothing about warfare changes - only the point of view.

I was wondering if there were any commenters out there that had some first hand knowledge of similar war "mob mentality"? Do soldiers really lose a sense of right and wrong in that environment. Does military training really brainwash you into not caring about killing people? And what goes on in a newly recruited person's head? Don't they know what to expect?

A "Let the Bodies Hit The Floor" mentaility is what is instilled in them. Add to that there is the unbelievable psychological strain that most people are not capable of handling.And there you have it, a cold and emotionless killing machine that has no remorse for their actions.

They are also convinced that they are 'killing for jesus'

The orders come from the top in the military everyone knows that. If you want to believe the wars crimes Hussein committed do you think he was the one that actually killed/gassed the people? No just like in Germany the leaders are the ones responsible, however, in the case of the German Nazis as opposed to the Bush Nazis; Hitler was a decorated war hero, not a gutless reservist dodger, but then that is the typical MO for the staunch bush lovers, they were too gutless to go to war themselves however now that trillions can be made from this war they are for some reason changed their minds about war.

From M*A*S*H:

Hawkeye: War isn't Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse.

Mulcahy: Why do you say that, Hawkeye?

Hawkeye: Simple, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell?

Mulcahy: Sinners, I believe.

Hawkeye: Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is full of them.

let god sort it out, you can't trust the military hierachy. they are as crooked as bush, cheney and their thugs and are skimming and stealing lots of loot from this so-called war. so the pentagon and bush administration doesn't care in the least unless the money stops flowing. To the pentagon and bush, the soldiers are merely expendable assets, just as the innocent civilians. In war, our military can get away with murder. but remember,that's what they're trained for: to kill.

I do not believe the article was refering to the type of firefight you describe Walter. Intentional murder and or torture, and a close at hand combat firefight are two seperate issues.

US soldiers are continued to be portrayed as "saints", and "liberators" not only by the US and western media but also the general public, even after their barbaric and demonic crimes came to light. These are the ones who went to Iraq to "liberate" Iraq and bring "democracy" to the Iraqis. Why the public in the US and the west not able to accept the REALITY is because of their delution about their superior values. This reminds me of the words of Jules Harmand, the French advocate of colonialism: "It is necessary, then, to accept in principle and point of departure the fact that there is hierarchy of races and civilizations, and that we belong to the superior race and civilization, still recognising that, while superiority confers rights, it imposes strict obligations in return. The basic legitimation of conquest over native peoples is the conviction of our superiority, not merely our mechanical, economic, and military superiority, but our MORAL SUPERIORITY. Our dignity rests on that quality, and it underlies our right to direct the rest of humanity. Material power is nothing but a means to that end." It is this mindset in the US and the west that is falsifying and distorting the evidence of crimes and genocidal activities of the US soldiers, and the ravaged lives of Iraqi innocent victims. Without an iota of shame or remorse, still majority of the American public and the media think that the US is a SOLUTION to the IRAQI PROBLEM. Why? Because from childhood they are BRAINWASHED about their superior values!!!!!!!! So they continue to live in that delution, believing American myths about themselves, their soldiers, their political leaders, and their country in general.

Let me present you this story that appeared in www.rawstory.com

"A US Marine was ordered to execute a room full of Iraqi women and children during an alleged massacre in Haditha that left 24 people dead, a military court heard Thursday.
The testimony came in the opening of a preliminary hearing for Marine Sergeant Frank Wuterich, who faces 17 counts of murder over the Haditha killings, the most serious war crimes allegations faced by US troops in Iraq .
Wuterich, dressed in desert khakis, spoke confidently to confirm his name as the hearing to decide if he faces a court martial began at the Marines' Camp Pendleton base in southern California.
The 27-year-old listened intently as Lance Corporal Humberto Mendoza recounted how Marines had responded after a roadside bomb attack on their convoy in Haditha on November 19, 2005 left one comrade dead.
Mendoza said Marines under Wuterich's command began clearing nearby houses suspected of containing insurgents responsible for the bombing.
At one house Wuterich gave an order to shoot on sight as Marines waited for a response after knocking on the door, said Mendoza.
"He said 'Just wait till they open the door, then shoot,'" Mendoza said.
Mendoza then said he shot and killed an adult male who appeared in a doorway.
During a subsequent search of the house, Mendoza said he received an order from another Marine, Lance Corporal Stephen Tatum, to shoot seven women and children he had found in a rear bedroom.
"When I opened the door there was just women and kids, two adults were lying down on the bed and there were three children on the bed ... two more were behind the bed," Mendoza said.
"I looked at them for a few seconds. Just enough to know they were not presenting a threat ... they looked scared."
After leaving the room Mendoza told Tatum what he had found.
"I told him there were women and kids inside there. He said 'Well, shoot them,'" Mendoza told prosecutor Lieutenant Colonel Sean Sullivan.
"And what did you say to him?" Sullivan asked.
"I said 'But they're just women and children.' He didn't say nothing."
Mendoza said he returned to a position at the front of the house and heard a door open behind him followed by a loud noise. Returning later that afternoon to conduct body retrieval, Mendoza said he found a room full of corpses.
In cross-examination, however, Major Haytham Faraj suggested a girl who survived the shootings had identified Mendoza as the gunman, sparking an angry reaction from prosecutors.
"The girl in question already identified another Marine," Sullivan stormed. "This is completely unethical, inappropriate and has no basis in fact."
Mendoza had given similar testimony during a preliminary hearing against Tatum earlier this year.
Investigating officer Lieutenant Colonel Paul Ware, who is presiding in Wuterich's hearing, last week recommended dropping murder charges against Tatum, describing Mendoza's evidence as "too weak".
Prosecutors allege Marines went on a killing spree in Haditha retaliation for the death of their colleague in the bomb attack.
Defense lawyers will argue that Wuterich followed established combat zone rules of engagement.
A total of eight Marines were initially charged in connection with the Haditha deaths.
Four were charged with murder while four senior officers were accused of failing to properly investigate the killings.
Of the four Marines charged with murder, two have since had charges withdrawn, while allegations against Tatum are also expected to be dismissed."

Many of these troops were trained in violence before they were out of fifth grade. Violence is supreme in our video games, comic books, movies, television shows, ultra boxing etc. Even in our sporting contests, from little league to the professional ranks, violence is a daily occurance, who in the years of the 1950s and before, would have ever thought pro baseball or basketball players would be involved in mass brawling? How sad it is, to witness little leagers giving a fist filled uppercut when they hit a home run or win a foot race. ___ Violence begets violence.

When killing another human becomes routine, ___ it will destroy the mind and the soul. It should be unimaginable, that school children would mass murder their classmates and teachers, many times we have seen that disaster occur over the past few years, and or hear it was luckily avioded at the last minute.

We Americans have always cerished our freedoms, our right of free speech and of what is appropriate, and or legal to project in our visual and reading materials. __ Did we perhaps go too far? And those like Doctor Spock,___ never spank a child.

What we are now a witness to with many of our troops in Iraq, is an eye-opener reflection of our society. History repeats,___ remember the Roman Empire.

All the above excellent comments. Any chance anybody in congress or any generals agree? I've given up on the Bush cabinet.

Dennis for president!

If members of the Occupier's military did this on a regular basis to my people, I certainly would know who the Enemy was and what they thought of my people. US citizens presume along in their Innocence and Exceptionalism. They don't really know who is murdering/killing in their name. You can be sure news of incidents like these spreads quickly in Iraqi communities. The son will remember, the grandson and the granddaughter will remember. Their hearts and minds will remember. How many memories are there already? Ten thousand? A hundred thousand? Do not be surprised what Enemy Formation will bring. Theirs and ours. And now, let's all look away from Iran and what our Leaders have in mind for us there.

You go to war with the secretary of defense you have, not the secretary of defense you'd like to have.

I posted this article some time ago. Since I feel that it is relevant to the present topic, I am posting it again.

"War Psychiatry And Iraq Atrocities: How Killing Becomes A Reflex"
By Penny Coleman
22 August, 2007
Alternet

"In 1971, Lt. William Calley was sentenced to life in prison for his role in the massacre of some 500 civilians in the Vietnamese hamlet of My Lai. In response to Calley's conviction, Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) convened the "Winter Soldier Investigation." Over a three-day period, more than a hundred veterans testified to atrocities they had witnessed committed by U.S. troops against Vietnamese civilians. Their expressed intention was to demonstrate that My Lai was not unique, that it was instead the inevitable result of U.S. policy. It was a travesty of justice, they claimed, to focus blame on the soldiers when it was the policy makers, McNamara, Bundy, Rostow, Johnson, LeMay, Nixon and the others who were truly responsible for the war crimes that had been committed.
In 2004, the release of the Abu Grahib photographs broke the unforgivable silence in the mainstream press about atrocities committed by American soldiers in Iraq. Haditha followed, then Mahmoudiyah, Ishaqi, and at this writing, countless other instances of savage, homicidal violence directed at civilians have been reported. The July 30 issue of the Nation included an article, "The Other War," by Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian, which used interviews with 50 combat veterans to make the case that American soldiers are using indiscriminate and often lethal force in their dealings with Iraqi civilians. These veterans, the authors report, have "returned home deeply disturbed by the disparity between the reality of the war and the way it is portrayed by the U.S. government and American media." I would wager that they are more deeply disturbed by the reality itself than the way the media reports it, but certainly government and media distortions are another layer of betrayal. In a letter protesting that article, Paul Rieckhoff, president of the anti-war organization Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, made an argument parallel to that of VVAW, namely that "(a)nyone who wants to write a serious piece about the ethical lapses of the U.S. troops should start and end the article by putting blame where it belongs -- on the politicians who sent our troops to war unprepared and without a clear mission" (the Nation, 7/13/07).
I'm not suggesting that American soldiers take no responsibility for their actions. Like Rieckhoff, I would argue that we must balance outrage at criminal and sadistic acts with the insistence that we "guard against blaming this new generation of veterans for the terrible and tragic circumstances" that led to those acts. And I agree that, once again, the architects have been given a free pass and that the soldiers, who are doing exactly what they have been trained to do, are taking the blame. But I want to focus on an aspect of the situation that is never addressed in the mainstream media, and not often enough elsewhere: specifically that American troops are trained to act in criminal and sadistic ways.
Military training has been part of the experience of millions of young American men since the Revolutionary War. Prior to the Vietnam era, however, that training consisted largely of practicing military skills and learning to manage military equipment. It is only in the last half century that training has evolved into an entirely new phenomenon that makes use of the principles of operant conditioning to overcome what studies done over the last century have consistently demonstrated, namely, that healthy human beings have an inherent aversion to killing others of their own species.
Operant conditioning holds that organisms, including human beings, move through their environment rather haphazardly until they encounter a reinforcing stimulus. The experience of that stimulus becomes associated in memory with the behavior that immediately preceded it. In other words, a behavior is followed by a consequence, and the nature of the consequence, reward or punishment, modifies the organism's tendency to repeat the behavior. Today's recruits are intentionally and methodically subjected to a training regimen that is explicitly designed to turn them into reflexive killers. And it is very effective. It is also carefully concealed. The military would prefer to keep their methods out of sight because of the moral and ethical discussions, not to mention the legal restraints, which public scrutiny and constitutional debate might impose. Or so I would like to believe.
War Psychiatry, the army's textbook on combat trauma, notes that "pseudospeciation, the ability of humans and some other primates to classify certain members of their own species as 'other,' can neutralize the threshold of inhibition so they can kill conspecifics." Modern military training has developed carefully sequenced and choreographed elements of what many would call brainwashing to disconnect recruits from their civilian identities. The values, standards and behaviors they have absorbed over a lifetime from their families, schools, religions and communities are scorned and punished. Using cruelty, humiliation, degradation and cognitive disorientation, recruits are reprogrammed with an entirely new set of learned responses. Every aspect of combat behavior is rehearsed until response becomes reflexive. Operant conditioning has vastly improved the efficacy of American soldiers, at least by military standards. It has proven to be a reliable way to turn off the switch that controls a soldier's inherent aversion to killing. American soldiers do kill more often and more efficiently. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, author of On Killing, calls this form of training "psychological warfare, [but] psychological warfare conducted not upon the enemy, but upon one's own troops."
The psychological warfare that is being conducted on today's recruits is a truly disturbing indication of the worldview of our leadership, both military and political. The group identity they are drilling into these kids, the "insider" identity, is based on explicit contempt not only for the declared enemy of the week, but for the entire civilian population, with a special emphasis on women and homosexuals. In an army that is now 15 percent female and who knows (don't ask, don't tell) what percentage gay, drill instructors still rely on labels like "girl" or "pussy," "lady" or "fairy" to humiliate, degrade and ultimately exact conformity. Recruits are drilled with marching chants that privilege their relationships with their weapons over their relationships with women ("you used to be my beauty queen, now I love my M-16"), or that overtly conflate sex and violence ("this is my rifle, this is my gun; this is for fighting, this is for fun."). Aside from teaching these kids to quash their innate feelings about killing in general, they are being programmed with a distorted version of not only what it means to be a man, but of what it means to be a citizen. To ascend to the warrior class, one must learn to despise and distrust all that is not military. Chaim Shatan, a psychiatrist who worked with Vietnam-era veterans, described this transformative process as deliberate, as opposed to capricious, sadism, "whose purpose is to inculcate obedience to command."
There are any number of ways that modern training methods both support violence, aggression and obedience and help to disconnect a reflex action from its moral, ethical, spiritual or social implications, but one of the best illustrations of this process is the marching chants, or "jodies," as they are known in the services. "Jody" is the derivative of an African-American work song about Joe de Grinder, a devilish ladies' man who is at home making time with the soldier's girlfriend while the soldier is stuck in the war ("ain't no use in going home; Jody's on your telephone"). According to the military, jodies build morale while distracting attention from monotonous, often strenuous, exertion. The following, originally a product of the Vietnam era, has been resurrected for training purposes in every war since and is an example of the kind of morale building that has been judged appropriate to the formation of an American soldier:
Shell the town and kill the people.
Drop the napalm in the square.
Do it on a Sunday morning
While they're on their way to prayer.
Aim your missiles at the schoolhouse.
See the teacher ring the bell.
See the children's smiling faces
As their schoolhouse burns to hell
Throw some candy to the children.
Wait till they all gather round.
Then you take your M-16 now
And mow the little fuckers down.

Thankfully, the brainwashing has not yet been developed that will override the humanity of most American soldiers. According to the troops interviewed in the Nation, the kind of psychotic brutality described in the marching cadence above is indulged by only a minority. Still, they described atrocities committed against civilians as "common" -- and almost never punished. As multiple deployments become the norm, however, and as more scrambled psyches are sent back into combat instead of into treatment, it is frightening to consider that the brainwashing may yet prevail. Given the training to which these soldiers have been subjected and the chaotic conditions in which they find themselves, it is inevitable that more will succumb to fear and rage and frustration. They will inevitably be overwhelmed by cumulative doses of horror, and they will lose control of their judgment and their compassion. Thirty-six years ago, American veterans tried to cut through the smoke and mirrors of the official response to civilian atrocities, the version that scapegoated soldiers and ignored those who gave the orders. As then Lt. John Kerry put it, "We could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel (that it is) not reds, and not redcoats (that threaten this country), but the crimes which we are committing." The soldiers who, following orders, have run over children in the road rather than slow down their convoy will never be the same again, regardless of whether government and the media tell the truth. Nor will the soldiers manning checkpoints who shoot, as ordered, and kill entire families who failed to stop, only to learn later that no one had bothered to share with them that the American signal to stop -- a hand held up, palm towards the oncoming vehicle -- to an Iraqi means, "Hello, come here." I have heard a number of the men cited in the Nation article speak about their combat experiences, and they are tormented by what they saw and did. They want to tell their stories, not because they are looking for absolution, but because they want to believe that Americans want to know. But neither are they willing to take the blame.
They have already carried home the psychic wounds and the dangerous reflexive habits of violence that will always diminish their lives and their relationships. In return, they are hoping we will listen to them this time when they ask us to look a little harder, dig a little deeper, use a little more discernment. Or have we already arrived at a point in our collective moral development when, as Shatan predicted, "Like Eichmann, we … consider evil to be banal and routine?"

Penny Coleman is the widow of a Vietnam veteran who took his own life after coming home. Her latest book, Flashback: Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, Suicide and the Lessons of War, was released on Memorial Day, 2006.

Environment is stronger then the will.

The will to do the humane thing, is overridden by the "mob" mentality of the other troops, and the passion of the moment.

Kids they are, with guns and force and the go ahead to kill the "ragheads".

This is who our military is - this is what bushcon and the christian "right" have foisted upon the middle east.

This will be our karma - and this nation will reap what it has sown.

As usual the focus is on the Grunts at the coal face....The Higher Ups [Rumsfeld etal] slip away, retire to meretricious respectability and go unpunished....

The fish always rots from the head....

An article in Rolling Stone in Apr. 2006 by Jeff Tietz was called "The Killing Factory". It was about basic training in the army. While I won't post a link to bootlegged copies of the article (Rolling Stone did not put up the article on their site) there is enough information above for you to find it.

The thesis of the article is that basic training is designed to break the human aversion to killing other humans. It goes into detail on how this is accomplished.

One statistic that stood out was the percentage of soldiers willing to shoot to kill from the Civil War to Iraq, in the Civil War it was a little more than half, today it's above 95%

Sad natural consequence of this kind of war. These soldiers aren't saints, but they aren't demons either. They're human and like the rest of us, the environment they're in shapes them. Giving them a job of putting down the population and they will see the population as the enemy. Anyone ever advocating going to war has to consider atrocities as one of the many expected costs - a "known known" as Rumsfeld would say.

I believe that the soldiers believed that they were within their rights to commit atrocities. Remember, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Gonzalez told them so. Yes, all three are liars, but the soldiers probably were telling the truth, even if it was "just this once".

So, are we winning yet or what?

Remember Vietnam? All the same.

I am shocked that people who volunteer to be trained to kill are going around killing!
What is this world coming to?
Next they'll tell me that hunting isnt about killing wildlife for pleasure but really about appreciating and respecting the preciousness of life.

"Brevity is the soul of wit". Shakespeare

Just a suggestion.

Yea, but they told the Loonitary Decider all is good and morale is super-duper! And then they cheered!!!

The most highly trained killing force in history had him right at their fingertips... and they fu**king cheered, instead of breaking just one more little rule...

When the "rules" permit a president to get away with lying in order to justify an invasion and occupation, when the same rules permit him to drop hundreds of thousands of bombs on a densely populated city of 5.7 million (Bhagdad), and then they allow him to kill through his military over 500,000 people (including tens of thousands of little children) and to cripple at least that many more, then the rules become meaningless - and a travesty of justice.

Our so called civilization, and the 1% who own and control ~90% of it, is rotten to the core.

It's time for revolution -that will lead to government by and for the people. It's time for truth, justice and peace.

It's time for Dennis Kucinich!

read your reply "cee". I'm running out the door right now. thanks

I remember the day of the Oklahoma City bombing. The Rush Limbaughs of the world were if full-blown "it must be the Arabs" mode. They were definitely trying to drum up support for a war within hours of that bombing. They only stopped when it was a white, ex-military, rightwinger that got arrested for the crime.

"The Mai Lai Massacre (Colin Powell helped cover up) was only one of many."

'Vietnam was a My Lai every week, every other day,' as a vet in my college told me back in the early '80s.

'President Truman ended racial discremination in the military and America was stepping onto the road towards being a true Democracy.'

He also introduced loyalty oaths and started the Cold War. Ending discrimination in the military was (a) a way of providing the military with more easily expendable troops and (b) showing that we were better the the Russkies.