Ambrose Bierce said it best:

Christian, n. One who believes that the new testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

I dreamed I stood upon a hill and, lo!
The godly multitudes walked to and fro
Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad,
With pious mien, appropriately sad,
While all the church bells made a solemn din --
A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin.
Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below
With trranquil face upon that holy show
A tall, spare figure in a robe of white,
Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light.
"God keep you, stranger," I exclaimed, "You are
No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar;
And yet I entertain the hope that you,
Like these good people are a Christian too."
He raised his eyes and with a look so stern
It made me with a thousand blushes burn
Replied -- his manner with disdain was spiced:
"What! I, a Christian? No, indeed! I'm Christ."

Sir Melvin Cleophus - Nobody was burned at Salem. Everybody who was executed was hanged; hanging was the most common form of execution for witchcraft, not burning alive. However, those who were hanged or otherwise killed (as by torture) were cremated to deny them Xtian burial and resurrection.

Siouxrose, the number of people executed for witchcraft was more like 50,000 (source: Timothy Hutton). The overwhelming majority of those executed by the various inquisitions were judged guilty of HERESY, not witchcraft.

LET'S DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT....

"The problem is the extremist christians are much more motivated to expand their influence than moderate Americans are to stop them." (Comment by Happy Days)
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Anybody want to join a group in front of CHURCH PROPERTY and hand-out some free biology, mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, geology, sociology, psychology, and particularly, comparative religion, books??

CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA area - anywhere within 50 miles! (Or organize one in your locale.) Let's see what happens. Relatively new textbooks are cheap or free at used bookstores (you probably have some stored, too) and the reactions will be unforgettable!

I'll build a list - send email to coordinate, to:: plenum222@yahoo.com

Anybody with an available video camera should come, too.

Leroy, you haven't disappointed me at all. You have simply dismissed the beliefs of millions and millions of Jews and Christians. That is your right. However, to say there is no record of these people is not correct. We have document after document dating from first century A.D. which incorporate the writings of people who walked with the desciples and attest to their veracity and the veracity of their writings. One can reproduce the whole book of the Revelation from letters from first century pastors of churches--this is where they quote "our Brother John" in bits and pieces, and other books are similarly confirmed from that time frame. Used to be, we were told that one couldn't date the scriptures back very far at all--yet when the Dead Srolls were found and began to be assembled, we find the entire book of Isaiah is exactly as we have it today. There are also Jewish writings that refer to Jesus--who as it says, went into Egypt and learned many acts of magic with which he duped the people. It was also thought that he was the illegitimate son of a Roman solider. Sooo--while this is not very flattering, it does point to a description that someone just like you would write up if they had knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth. The writings of Josepheus are bandied back and forth where some people try to claim the mentions of Jesus are inserts by later Christians--scholars come down on both sides of this matter.

It is always amazing to me that people think the desciples had really something to gain--right, almost all of them died as martyrs--which, I am sure you know means "witness." They died for being witnesses to what they saw and for speaking about it.

As for their being no record at all of Moses or the exit from Egypt or the plagues, Immanuel Velikovski uncovered an interesting landmark which is referred to his writings--a stone in Egypt that outlines the plagues. I don't have a copy of Velikovski's book in front of me, but even if you disagree with his overall interpreations of astrological data--and BTW, many of the things he has predicted--such as the atmospher on Venus--are right on point--whereas Carl Sagan missed it by billions and billions and billion of miles. I like Carl Sagan, don't get me wrong, but when someone is right, they are right. Velikovski has been proven right about the atmosphere on Venus. Suffice it say, that his rummaging through the ancient records of the world is pretty darn exhaustive. So I get tired of hearing folks say, myth, myth, myth--when there is probably more eye witness accounts recorded to the existence of Jesus Christ than to many Roman rulers. As I say,

So-called skeptics like Michael Shumer of "Why Peple Believe Weird Things"--I think that is the name of his book, make a good living out of debunking--which amounts to nothing more than saying: I don't believe it because it doens't make any sense to me. Yet they never refute actual evidence. I laughed out loud when I read the first chapter of his book and he took on Hal Lindsay for interpreting some of the prophecies. Yet it was not Hal Lindsay who interpreted the scripture, it was the Bible itself. It went something like this: And the angel said, these bones are the whole of house of Israel, (remember the old spiritual song of "ankle bone connected to the shin bone"--this is section to which he was referring) and in the last days she will become a mighty army. Now, Shumer said Lindsay had no right to interpret that scripture that way--I say Shumer, take it up with the angel--he is the one who said it--Hal was just quoting him. But debunkers are a strange group. They just say myth, myth, myth when facts are staring them in the face. If you deny something exists, you dont' have to take responsibility for how you treat it.

jonjoe, good points.
I have heard the Buddhist scholar Robert Thurman talk of how Buddhism transformed, over time, a warlike peoples, i.e. the Tibetans and Mongolians, into a realtively peaceful and spiritually conscious people. The argument is often made that Buddhist cultures, with some exceptions, are generally peaceful.

It is often pointed out that Christianity is the cause of such brutality in western culture, but I have often wonderred if it's Christianity or just the culture? Maybe all the horrible atrocities in the name of Christ would have been in the name of any made up godlike historical figure or ideology?

jonjoe, good points.
I have heard the Buddhist scholar Robert Thurman talk of how Buddhism transferred, over time, a warlike peoples, i.e. the Tibetans and Mongolians, into a realtively peaceful and spiritually conscious people. The argument is often made that Buddhist cultures, with some exceptions, are generally peaceful.

It is often pointed out that Christianity is the cause of such brutality in western culture, but I have often wonderred if it's Christianity or just the culture? Maybe all the horrible atrocities in the name of Christ would have been in the name of any made up godlike historical figure or ideology?

Christians have contributed to the sufferings of many in the past and the present and no doubt will continue to do so in the future. But to insist that Christianity is the problem is stupid. Why? Because there has never been an institution in the world that has never engaged in wrongdoing. That goes for countries, governments, ideologies, philosophies and religions. They all start out with high hopes and aspirations until dumb human beings start screwing things up. Many Westerners look to the East into religions like Buddhism hoping to find something better than what they have in the West only to find that Buddhists have engaged in the same kind of mindless violence that plagues everywhere else. (I know because I lived in that part of the world for half my life.) It's a sad fact of life. Thankfully, there ARE millions of religious people who do practice what they preach. Unfortunately, they are not the ones who are drawing attention to themselves.

Sorry to dissapoint you holymoly, but yes, I have read most of the Bible and studied its historical provenance considerably. Probably more so than you have. The original gospel texts are of dubious origin, come too many years after the alleged life of Christ to be of value as anything other than an ancient equivialent of urban legend, and all of those who have edited them and/or translated them into English have had questionable motives and extreme bias. There is no reason to trust these documents as historical fact. There is no evidence that there was ever an exodus of Jews from Egypt led by someone called Moses. There is no evidence of King David. There is no evidence of Yeshua of Nazareth.

The conversation began with a discussion of the impacts of a theologically based organized group exerting influence on the US Military, which began as a strictly secular organization, (without a standing army) and has evolved into an argument about the "truth" of the christian religion. This devolution of our dialog is representative of how by changing the debate, the purposes of a covert group can be achieved.

The data in at this point appears to support the premise that: certain fascist hyper Christian groups have control of large parts of the US Government, 2 That US foreign policy is being influences significantly by those of this paradigm, 3. The financial powers are using these hyper christians as the industrialists in pre war Germany used the Nazi's for their advantage. 4. The majority of the American populous is quite possibly unable to awaken to the threat to it's fundamental well being, and currently unable to even asses what they once theoretically had, thus no knowledge of what they are in the process of losing. 5. Our hope will come from the rise of China, possibly Russia, the emerging networked social capitalism of the EU, and the necessity of global community connectedness and cooperation arising from the simultaneous arrival of environmental tipping points of global warming and economic tipping point of Peak Oil. Once a large part of the playing field is under water, then we will truly start playing a whole new game.

mikecorbeil, I don't get it. You say that end-times Christains are a bunch of dupes and false prophets. Yet you refer us to a book by Coleman which seems to coincide with the end-time believers exactly.

I mean, you have end-timers believing that there is a sinsister bunch trying to bring about a one-world government to usher in a one world-leader (anti-christ). Your Coleman author, who reminds one rather of a John Bircher, says there is a group of evil bankers who want their aims hidden as they secretly move to form a one world government and do away with soverign nations.

End-timers are dupes. Your guy is what, a prophet???

It is no secret to anyone who has studied history that the Treaty of Versaille served to bleed Germany dry and set up conditions for WWII. If you don't want to study history, look at the first episode of the Young Indiana Jones, a TV series that aired years ago. I don't think it is a big secret anymore that the IMF is used to bring down governments--but it is used to bring down socialist governments more than any others--and Coleman seems to think it is the SOCIALISTS who are behind these bankers. Need I remind you that when Kissinger and the CIA helped overthrow the legally elected government of Chile and "decided to save the Chileans from themselves" causing the death of Allende, the IMF was used while Allende was president to punish those people for trying to implement socialist policies, you know, like sharing the wealth a little. After Pinochet was installed, the IMF couldn't be more generous. As one ill-informed right-winger from Chile asked me: "Well, if Allende was so great, how come economics really improved under Pinochet?"

I have just started reading the book, but I fail to see so far, how you can say the Christian end-timers are just a "distraction" and "false-prophets." One thing I would disagree with Coleman about right off the bat, FDR was not a socialist. FDR set about trying to save capitalism from its corrupt, useless, rotten self. FDR put into play a few policies so that the people would not completely revolt against their masters. I would hardly call low-wage WPA jobs as a massive move toward socialism--regardless of what right-wingers think. It is more a safety valve to keep hungry people from rioting in the streets. The elite always take the pressure off just enough to avoid a taking down of the whole system which is what the great depression deserved.

Coleman points out that the Gulf War, like Vietnam, was an illegal war as Congress never officially declared it. Well, lay this at the feet of Congress just like our present mess. If Congress cut off the purse today, which they have every right to do, there would be no war tomorrow. Coleman blames the UN for all of this which is ridiculous. The UN is not responsible for such things as the Patriot Act, it is our own spineless representatives in Congress who brings us such acts.

In fact, our main problem stems from banks allright--the federal reserve--that cabal of crooks who fit the description that Coleman has of secretive, evil bankers. They instigated the federal reserve act and the income tax at the same time--all of which was designed to keep all of us, end-timers, non-believers, whoever you are, working for the very elite Coleman purports to uncover. I would suggest your watching Aaron Russo's film on youtube. People should not be paying income taxes on their labor--the supreme court apparently defined income, as money which is invested and makes more money. Labor was something you swap, that is, an even exchange of life for money--no gain is made. Therefore, a tax on people's labor is unconstitutional and theft. I hope the Browns are successful in their efforts to subvert this unjust and unconstitutional law that steals peoples labor from them.

Leroy: it is much easier for someone to dismiss the views of others than to actually do the research. You dismiss the Bible, yet I doubt you've spent ten minutes looking at it. Like I said, we are all free to invest our time and efforts in whatever interest us--and to take away from it whatever we choose. I don't see you making any point by point criticism of the things I pointed out. I chose to spend hours and hours and hours reading the scriptures and comparing records. But, then, perhaps, if you get nothing from the scriptures, it is as I heard an old preacher say one time: perhaps you are reading somebody else's mail.

And when you use terms like "confusing the map with the territory" I would ask you, are really familiar with that phrase, and the one who coined it? I've read S. I. Hayakawa, and I'm very familiar with the phrase. You see, I like to read and study in all sorts of fields. And before I just dismiss someone's views, no matter how bizarre they seem to me, I investigate--or at least I try to. If you would do the same, you might learn something.

People like holymoly are just sad. That's a work of fiction that you're taking so seriously. Yahweh and Yeshuah ben Yosef are mythical characters of no more reality than Zeus, Krishna, or Orochimaru. Some of the words and deeds attributed to the characters worshipped by the Judeo-Christian-Muslim axis of evil are worth emulating and others are not. All it takes to tell the difference is the ability to think for yourself based on your actual experiences in the real world. Stop confusing one group's defective map with the territory.

I hope you know that you could write 10 pages and I would still only read the last paragraph. So save yourself some time. If you can't write it in 10 sentences, then don't write it at all.

mikecorbeil, good points and thanks for recommending Coleman's book, seems like a good read.

All the neigh sayers have doomed this mission from the beginning. I personally believe that this Operation Straight UP would have worked far more effectively than the surge. Just think about it.

Adamslp says:You people pretend that the Hebrew scriptures are a part of your bible, but then you claim that it means nothing. The fact is that they were only included as part of your bible as an attempt to use them as "proofs" to try to convert Jews. The new testament, however stands alone and nothing in the Jewish scriptures predicts Jesus. However, everything that Jesus taught was already part of the law. He taught nothing new as he drew from the tradition from which he was raised.

Well, Adamslp, I don't PRETEND that the Hebrew scriptures (OT) are a part of my Bible---they are, and the New Testament (NT) is validated and a continuance of the OT, in my view, and I will tell you why I believe this.

Can we both agree that the Jewish people were looking for a Messiah? Why were they expecting one? Wasn't He predicted by the Prophets? In fact, at times, they were often expecting TWO Messiahs—now why is that? If they were expecting one, then our question is not did the Old Testament predict JESUS but did JESUS fulfill the expectations of the Prophets of the OT? Does Jesus fit the description of the Anointed One—The Christ?

For example, let us begin with David, who, I believe, was a King AND a prophet. In the 2nd Psalm David, who has been promised that the Messiah will come through him, is writing, I believe, about a future time when Messiah rules from Zion:

Palm 1: Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
[8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
[10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
[11] Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[12] Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Now, if you wish, you are free to believe that David is talking about himself here. David may be referring to himself as "the Son" whom "this day the LORD has begotten." You are free to believe that he will break the heathen with a "rod of iron" and "dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." You are free to believe that "Kiss the Son" is David holding out his royal hand, but David just didn't seem like that kind of guy. No, David is talking about someone else—someone pretty special. Someone who is going to rule the world in righteousness. Someone who he has been looking forward to for a long time.

David also predicts the crucifixion in Psalm 22:

1] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
[2] O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
[3] But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
[4] Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
[5] They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
[6] But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
[7] All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
[8] He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
[9] But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
[10] I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
[11] Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
[12] Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
[13] They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
[14] I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
[15] My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
[16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
[17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
[19] But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

14-18 pretty much describes what happened to Jesus on the cross—right down to the Roman soldiers' casting dice for Jesus' one possession, a robe. But you are free to believe that this pertains to Jesus or that later followers of Christ just made up what happened to him to fit this. Maybe, once again, David is talking about himself. But I don't think so. You, like me, are free to believe whatever you choose.

Psalm 16: for those who have eyes to see, is David discussing the resurrection?

I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
[9] Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
[10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Now, you are free to believe that David is talking about himself—and he is, in that his flesh shall rest in hope because of Messiah, and because of Messiah's resurrection, David will also be resurrected in that day when those who believed will arise. Or, you can think that David walked through hell and was resurrected. I chose to believe this is referring to Messiah.

Isiah 53, before the time of Jesus, was read in the synagogues often. After the crucifixion, it wasn't read so much anymore. One of my Jewish friends consulted a rabbi when I showed him this chapter. The rabbi said it referred to all of the Jews and not to just a man. You are free to believe that , if you wish.

Isa.53
[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
[9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

You are free to believe "that by his stripes we are healed" refers to the persecution of the Jewish people and that they find their resting place with the rich and the wicked and that they are cut off, i.e. killed with no children. You may chose to believe that none of this applied to Jesus and that because "all of us have gone astray" the Jewish people go like a lamb to the slaughter and an offering for our sin, etc. etc. I believe the Jews used to think it referred to the Messiah, and for this reason, they thought there might be two: one who was a mighty king, and another who was meek and mild and who took on the sins of the world. I believe that it refers to Messiah in his two comings—one as a babe in a manager to die on a cross and the other as the "lion of the tribe of Judah."

What did Micah have to say:

2] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Well, we could say this refers to David. Of course, the Jews thought it referred to Messiah, which is how those working for Herod knew how to tell the Kings of East where to find the newborn child—they knew, because of the prophets. Mary and Joseph, in order to taxed, had to return to the town of their ancestor, David, for the census. For this reason, Mary gave brith in Bethleham. The rabbi said this just refers to the lineage—not to a town. You are free to believe that. But, what about the last part: he who is to be ruler—whose goings forth have been from old from everlasting. Does that sound like a regular guy to you?

But I am just getting started. If I were to outline all the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, then CD could not accept any more posts. Their server would be full.

You say, Jesus was not g-d. I say he was, and if the above verse doesn't give you a clue, let's try another one, Isa 9:

[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
[8] The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.

Jesus claimed to be God. So either he was a liar, crazy or He was whom he claimed to be. He says:
56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
[59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Well, any good Jew who did not believe Jesus was Messiah would have picked up stones. They knew what he meant when he said "before Abraham was, I am."
There are so many verses that foretold the coming of Christ anda Jesus is the one who fulfilled tehm—that it is hard to stop. But as the new testament says in Luke (and I am paraphrasing )about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus—not Lazarus who was brought back from the dead—another Lazarus, one who sat outside the rich man's gate and begged--the rich man died and went to hell and the poor man died and went to "Abraham's bosom." The rich man begged Abraham for a drink of water and Abraham replies: I am sorry, there is a great gulf between us and I cannot cross it. "Well then, the rich man says, send someone back to warn my brothers that they do not come here." Abraham replied: your brothers have Moses and the prophets, and if they will not believe them, it would do no good to send someone back from the dead.
Abraham here is saying, you can believe what you want. God gave you Moses and the prophets. What you chose to do with them is your business.

Just remember when old Anti-Christ flies into Jerusalem in his private 747 that there is no way he is Messiah. Zech 9:9 tells you what to look for in Messiah--certainly not an arrogant wordly leader:

9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Jesus rode in on palm sunday, as we call it, as the people lay palm leaves in his path. They called out to their Messiah and the priests and leaders of the Jews said—shut 'em up! This is sacrilege." Jesus replied: I tell you if they shut up the very rocks would cry out. Yes, he was to be proclaimed Messiah at that very time in history, even if the rocks had to do it.

But, we are free to believe as we wish.

I need to leave this country where the hell is my passport........any country (with nice weather and beaches) want to take in an American refugee???

I didn't sign up for this Judeo-Christian military corporate facist neocon nonsense wtf I am beggining to forget what the country was like before this shit.

Adamslp:
I will try to address the statements directed at me, as I am afraid that you have mistaken me and my intent:

"You know nothing about Judaism." - You are probably right to a degree. I haven't spent very much time studying the Judaism. Nor do I purport to know that much. I am primarliy concerned with philosophy.
"The Jews brought morality and spirituality onto this earth precisely because they clung to the law." - You are absolutely right there as well. Although I would argue that they are not the only people to bring morality and spirituality to the earth. Each culture develops morally/spiritually as necessitated by its environment. That the Jews were constantly persecuted by their neighbors is a hight crime, and has hightened to a degree the moral/spiritual acuity of Judaism, IMO. "They were not slave to the law." - I never said that they were.
"You people [you people? I'm just one free-thinking guy here. you people sounds rather pejorative, n'est pas?] pretend that the Hebrew scriptures are a part of your bible [it sure as sh** ain't my Bible, just another book in my library], but then you claim that it means nothing. The fact is that they were only included as part of your bible [see above] as an attempt to use them as "proofs" to try to convert Jews [I'm not interested in converting anyone to anything, I come from a long line of agnostics. What I am concerned with is philosophy i.e. the love of wisdom]. The new testament, however stands alone and nothing in the Jewish scriptures predicts Jesus. [I agree, the notion that Judaism is some sort of prelude to Christianity is one of the greatest cultural swindles of human history]. However, everything that Jesus taught was already part of the law. [disagree strongly, Christ came to overthrow. As another poster noted, he came with the sword. He told his followers to deny mother and father (tradition) and follow him.] He taught nothing new..." - uhhh, then how come Christianity is so different from say, Judaism. How come Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah? Not that there's anything wrong with that, just asking.

"Jesus was not g-d." - Never said he was. "Perhaps even the legitimate heir to the throne." - I am aware of this hypothesis, developed at length by the great scholar and poet Robert Graves. The fact of the matter is we are discussing a person for whom no tangible historical record exists. Please also remember that there were many would-be Messiah's at this period in history.
As for the notion that the Romans killed Christ, sorry but historical and philological evidence shows that the Romans merely handed him over to the Sanhedrin for punishment by his own people. You are correct that the Romans held the Jews in utter contempt. So much so that they couldn't bothered to pass judgment on such affairs. Pontus Pilate said "What is truth?" and washed his hands.

From the vehemence of your post I assume you take me for some sort of anti-Semite, and a Christian, to boot. I assure you nothing could be further from the truth. Again, I think you have mistaken me, sir.

Not too bad Holymoly.
Not bad at all!

At the risk of just "pssing in the wind" as normvincent put it above, I am going to quote godlessrant and make a couple of comments:

godlessrant says that Christianity is not a peaceful religion and folks are just fooling themselves and quotes the following:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (10:34-36)
I came not to send peace, but a sword. … A man's foes shall be they of his own household."
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

As I understand this verse, Christ was telling his followers that people would reject them and hate them when they became Christians and decided to follow Christ. Jesus constantly uses the word "sword" throughout the Bible. The "sword" he is referring to here is the rift in a family caused by putting a belief in Christ first, ahead of even loyalty to family. It does not mean that Christ wants you to kill your mother or your daughter-in-law with a sword.

Also, if you will notice, there is a verse in Hebrews Chapt 4:

12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This means that the word of God will permeate your very being and convict one and change one even as a sword plunges and cuts. Sometimes things are literal in the Bible and sometimes they are figurative. One can usually figure out which is which by studying and comparing scripture with scripture and not take the verse out of context.

So, yes, Christ is a "sword" in that he causes conflict. But anyone who follows a particular philosophy that requires your whole-hearted attention, is going to have problems with family members who want to be put first or have other ideas about how one should be spending one's time, life and to whom one gives one's loyalty.

Even at the Battle of Armaghedden, which is much spoken of these days and probably with reason, it says that all the armies of the world will converge against Israel on the plains of Megeiddo--don't hold me to the spelling (but this where the term "Armagheeden" comes from)--Christ arrives to do battle with the Anti-Christ and his armies--so this is the Second Coming:

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
[18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So, while this seems pretty darn brutal, this is, afterall, the Anti-Christ (beast) and his armies and if you read the history of this, Anti-Christ has beheaded people (the Guillotine is back in action) and killed the followers of Christ right and left (no pun intended). Christ has come to set things straight, punish the guilty, save the innocent. The false prophet is a great spiritual leader who deceives the people of the earth into following Anti-Christ by causing miracles and pointing people to worship Anti-Christ by calling Anti-Christ the Messiah.

Rant also mentions Noah and the great flood. However, if you will look at the context of that, it saddened God and he was sorry that he had made man because man had become so wicked and the scriptures associated with that, said that God felt compelled to wipe out man BECAUSE HE HAD BECOME SO VIOLENT ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH KILLING AND KILLING AND DESTROYING. Now, how ironic, you might say, that God killed because people were violent. Yes, but the Bible is filled with paradoxes, but that doesn't mean that it is not consistent. For example, it is really freaky that a few verses above that, we find that some sort of beings had intermarried with human women and had produced weird people--giants --maybe the Titans? Hell, I don't know. Anyway, it looks like some sort of DNA problem was going on and it was thought best for mankind that these be wiped out. I don't know, I'm not an expert. But I just want you to realize that there was more going on here than just a desire for God to make happy and kill folks.

And as for all those who think they are doing the will of Christ by being mean to others and murdering others and doing freaky stuff in the name of Christ, he realized this and warned about it and told them to look out for the day of judgment:

Matthew Chapt 7:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And a bit further down in that same chapter, he says that he will divide people calling themselves Christians into his sheep and the goats. The sheep on the right because they did what was right and the goats go on the left to everlasting damnation.

Now, you will say again: how can God send someone to everlasting damnation? He won't. The people who go to everlasting damanation can call on God at anytime--it is just that they don't want to. In the Book of Revelation, it says that when stars are falling from heaven and all kinds of end-of-world weird stuff is going on, these same people will shake their fist at God=--sort of like Satan in Milton's Paradise Lost--and curse Him. Satan says: tis better to serve in hell on one's feet than in heaven on one's knees.

A lot of folk believe that, and you gotta admit Satan's character in Paradise Lost is a heck of a lot more interesting than the one Milton calls "the only begotten Son of God" who comes across as not very interesting and kind wimpy.

But this is just my take. If I'm pissing in the wind, so be it.

Brilliant and painfully funny commentary.

One minor point that has not been addressed.

The Bible and the "Christian" institutions of Europe evolved over a long and bloody period of time following the fall of the Roman Empire. When the Romans lost physical military control they devised a system of politically motivated mind-control for the benefit of an aristocracy not unlike America's current oligarchy.

Bush and the turd blossom have raped the working poor Christian voters convincing slaves to vote for their masters.

Organized religion, as opposed to sincere spirituality, is a method of crowd control. Just another way to lead the sheep to the slaughter while picking their pockets.

A curious Iraq war crime detail is that Iraqis incinerated by the burn of a depleted uranium round are affectionately called "crispy critters" by Christian soldiers, not unlike those burned at the stake during the inquisitions.

Pray for peace !

Good point jdpst44. The Golden Rule is really utter nonsense because it presupposes that everyone wants the same things.

Imagine Person A who loves to sit in a quiet corner and read and Person B who becomes a neurotic mess when there's no one to talk to. If Person B applies the Golden Rule to Person A there will be conflict, not harmony.

Or, to take things to an extreme, picture a masochist attempting to apply the Golden Rule to everyone they meet.

Even the Reverse Golden Rule of Asian philosophy suffers the same defect. The only rule of this type that would work is "Do unto others as they would be done unto."

Gail, I've been watching the series and it is quite good. I have to work tonight so I will miss the "Christian" episode. I might catch snippets of it while at work though.

"At another time he says all you have to know is do unto others as you would have done to yourself."

What if a person hates themselves?

did the "christian freedom packages" contain a supply of crystal meth, the the phone # number of a good gay "masseuse"?

if your relationship with your god is supposed to be a personal one, what is the purpose of organized religion?

Americans may be the most religious people but they are because they are afraid to die because they do not practice their religion.
People who say they are religious are usually the evilisest people you will meet.
While people who say they do not practice religion but are good people are the nicest.
Hypocrites each and every one of them.

"God's Warriors"
by: Chritiana Amanpour

The third and last part of this 3-night series will be on CNN tonight at 9:00 pm, eastern time.

Tuesday was "Jewish" Fundamentalist Warriors
Wednesday was "Muslim" Fundamentalist Warriors
Thursday, TONIGHT, will be "Christian" Fundamentalist Warriors

Armanpour did a lot of research on this series and it is well worth seeing.

The Christian right is well on its way to establishing a theocracy in America. Their forward thrust is greatly underestimated. Americans are the most religious people in the modern western world and they are constantly dumbing down if this is possible.

here's a question: why don't all you "peace-loving" Christians change your name to something else? "Jesus people" or something. so that the rest of us can tell the diff b/n the vast majority of apocalyptic cult fantasists and the slim minority who claim to follow the "true jesus."

Obeiwan, and Godless rant-- Christianity is a non-violent religion. The New Testament goes against all the violence in the old. And when Jesus says he turns son against father etc. it is because the new way of peace and non-violence goes so against the religions of the day and human nature in general. At one point Jesus says, forget an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, if someone strikes you turn the other cheek. At another time he says all you have to know is do unto others as you would have done to yourself. Humans just have the ability to pervert ANYTHING.

Gandhi summed up the Christian religion:

"I like your Christ. Your Christians I do not like. They are so unlike your Christ."

If Heaven is to be full of these people, I'll be QUITE relieved to go elsewhere.

If Jesus were alive today, the first thing He'd do is change His name.

Peace to you and yours.

Money and religious fanatics of all ilks are the root of all evil. It is truely incredible how religious zealots, regardless of faith, think they're somehow making the world a better place by preaching their intolerance of anyone or any idea that differs from their restricted world view. It's not only disgusting, it's going to be the end of us all.

Let's not forget the origin of Christianity as we now know it. Emperor Constantine and his historian/propagandist Eusebius cyinically used a meteorite event as an excuse to become Christians and take charge of the religion. They organized the Council of Nicea to carefully censor and rewrite the Bible into a useful tool for political purposes.

Under the Romans, Christianity became a top-down control system in which the slaves were brainwashed into believing that as long as they didn't make trouble in this world, no matter how bad things got for them they would have eternal bliss in Heaven. All emphasis was placed on the miraculous birth and miraculous resurrection of Jesus while all other aspects of his teachings were swept under the table, particularly the ones about the rich selling all they own and giving it to the poor.

If you want to see what Christianity could have been, read the Gospel of Thomas.

They're not christians they're cultists. They gave up their free will. Muslim extremists are not any different.

Anyone out there sick of these people?

Where is science?

Where is tolerance?

Where is the enlightenment?

Violence should always be the last resort. But people are allowed to defend their rights.

And Christian's really wonder why American's are developing a bad attitude toward their religion!

the bible is full of violence. this is business as usual for christianity. the god in the bible is the biggest mass murderer in the history of mankind. how can anyone worship him-her- whatever. personally i do not believe in violence.... do you?

"rebelnow August 22nd, 2007 2:07 pm

"..the Rapture is not a viable exit strategy.", true enough, but it sure as hell is a viable "entrance" strategy, seems to be working quite fine for that! Who said they want an exit strategy? Today Iraq, tomorrow Iran, then?…. Ashes, ashes, we all fall down! "

I don't think it's either 'exit' or 'entrance' strategy; it appears to be one or the other to some or various people, but there's a lot more to all of the warring than apocalyptic religious beliefs.

That "stuff" is all mainly used for purpose of distraction, because the real war makers and profiteers don't want to be exposed, and they know that all of these so-called "end times" "Christians" are NOT but what Jesus called 'false prophets', and are profitably useful. So, to be as little obvious as they can possibly ensure for themselves, the top rulers, war makers and profiteers, like having noise makers, attraction or attention grabbers, and therefore distractors like the Christian lunatics referred to in the article and who clearly are NOT really Christian.

Sure, some of the team of the top war makers and profiteers may indeed be of these lunatic "Christians", but they're not representative of all of these people.

Highly recommended as a MUST READ is this book (Dip. by Decep., by J.C., 1998), for which the PDF is downloadable via this Google.ca search link.

Carefully reading that book, people will learn of what is really going on in terms of the non-obvious; what is not happening on stage in front of our eyes and for us to see and hear, i.e., witness or observe, etc. I've only read up to and including chapter 5 so far, but am very glad to have come across the book (for the first time just a few days ago) and highly recommend it. It really should be treated as a MUST READ.

( Btw, in case any readers of this download and read this book, and like it enough to create a html copy from the PDF and for posting publicly, I suggest visting the author's website and reading his coypright notice, before posting copies. The website is very easy to find with a simple Web search, or, and while I'll omit clearly giving the url here, in case WordPress or CD again censors another post of mine, the url is his last name with '300' appended and completed with .com. He strictly forbids posting of his books, without permission anyway.

I don't know how 'fair use' applies in this kind of case (a book), one way or another, or at all; but I figure that PDF download links posted publicly are not the same thing as posting the contents of the PDFs. )

People should be able to easily enough see, with reading this above book, that the religious zealots, the [false prophet] "Christian" Zionists and the similarly false "Jewish" counterparts, evidently are mostly stage show distraction, more than anything else; and profitably useful [dumb animals], to boot, for extra "icing".

I definitely despise those religiously heinous, lunatic, psychopathic, etc., people, particularly their ways and statements, and them trying to influence govt; but I intuitively know that they're not the worst part of all of this, and that is that part that REALLY BOTHERS me MOST, much more. After all, if it wasn't for the latter, the real and secretive rulers, then the religious nutcases wouldn't even have a stage to act like goons on and from which they can distract the mass public.

Part of the art of deception is the minimally occasional use of the tactic known as distraction, diversion. I think we can all agree on that, and that pretty much everyone has heard of this art and tactic; yet too few people seem to have learned to critically keep this deception tactic carefully in mind when analysing circumstances in which deception may actually be an element.

Dip. by Decep., that is, diplomacy employs the "art of deception(s)".

It's strongly involved with respect to the North American Union and the SPP, definitely including what Bush, Harper and Calderone have already said and will or may additionally say about their totally secret talks Aug. 19-21. It's all secret, and all verbal, not documented, as says this article. The NACC headed by 30 top corporate elite and some advisers very much decide what will and will not be with the SPP.

That's again about big business, and natural resources is definitely one of the big industries involved.

They always figure that the best strategy for them is to fill us in only on an "as need to know" basis, and to make sure that that means us knowing as little as possible.

Elementary.

Religion ... religion's got two major functions in human society.

The primary one used to be placating and controlling the natural world through entities and agencies called "spirits", the unseen entities that brought plague and prey in equal measure, rain and drought ...

The second one was acting as social cement, controlling the unruly and complementing the basic support functions of the hunter-gather existence.

The function of controlling the natural world seems much less relevant these days, because as it happens, we humans of the "West" have spent the last few centuries mastering some aspects of nature and assuming we've got the whole thing under control.

But as our world has grown smaller, and much more filled with other people, religion's use as a social cement has grown, along with its flow-on effect, that of a social barrier to the others.

Hence the hatred/s. And it doesn't matter who is hating who. It's always easier to blame "them others" than to think hard as to why, and offer a suggestion as to why not?

But the second choice offers more possibilities, and much more hope.

Speaking of the Left Behind series, I found this site:
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/index.html

You might like to take part in its comments.

There have been a number of really insightful and enlightening thoughts posted here. Thoughts precede actions. Where's the action? Which of us will declare the revolution, and back up the declaration with action? Speaking the truth to power, without backing up the words with action, is worse than useless; it's dangerous. Which of us will quit supporting the status quo with our tax money? Which of us will actually start or join an intentional community or organize our blocks into actual 'neighborhoods,?' Which of us will forgo that second income so that one parent can stay at home and home-school our kids, arming them, with truth and by example, for the long struggle that lies ahead? Which of us who are able financially to stay at home, will care for the children of single parents? Which of us will use the strong emotion engendered within us by the ideas, attitudes, and events that are destroying our social contract, to fuel ACTION? It's way past time to take to the streets...and STAY there until truth and justice can be restored? Non-violent demonstrations will be taking place all over the US during the next few months. Join in if you can, but realize that it's what happens AFTER the demonstrations, AFTER everyone has gone back home, that will determine how successful we will be at beginning the revolution. Re-read the Declaration of Independence, and listen to what it says to you today. Let's hear from some of you about what you're DOING...unless, of course, you have no FAITH in the possibility of real democracy, and ultimately, no FAITH in yourselves as empowered agents with free will and self-responsibility. Blessings to all.

I've read several translations Bobbi Dykema Katsanis. Also I read the apocryphal texts and I've read some of the texts where parts of the patchwork philosophy came from and have seen some fragments almost word for word copied into the canonical OT texts. That just means to me the authors of the OT texts lived in their own age, were well read and learned. Which then means their own texts also belong in their own time.

Personally, I do not subscribe to the theory that Jesus really existed as a (historical) person. I see it as a made up character, a literary device with an appropriate cue name, most of his "story" being lifted out (midrash) of OT texts. Some believers see that as fulfillment of prophecies. Christian ideas were nothing original, key elements have been selected from older mythologies. Even later ideas that came into existence in the debate to suppress rival christianities, like for example the trinity, one of the least believable theological constructions, aren't original to christianity. At the moment I'm trying to figure out whether the so called founder of islam actually ever existed. There seems to be fair ground to doubt that too.

Of course I know that my position isn't exactly the most sympathetic and if you ask me I prefer "moderate" christians who fancy christianity to be peaceful and humanitarian and all that anytime, and these ideas are also ingredients of the texts, it isn't quite a clear black and white picture of Hollywood dimensions, but I feel much for the argument that "moderate" christianity gives cover to fundamentalist or if you prefer extremist zealots, even if they are each others number one enemy, because they both see the other as the greatest danger to corrupting the most dear they hold.

Similar struggles, but much sharper and at the fringes much more violent can be seen inside the muslim world. Hinduism and buddhism also aren't exempt.

Once you are "saved" you will no longer question the plan of your "saved" masters, who somehow believe that they are not safe and must protect themselves with violence, lest they be crucified... because they know that if the second amendment had been around when Jesus was alive...

Within the very best lies there is a kernal of truth; foremost in worlds history of lies are the writings within the Judeo Christian Chronicles and the people who say they believe them without question are the kernals from which so much of this worlds misery and destruction have sprung.
Within their pages are universal truths but man not content to just allow truth for truths sake has so perverted them to fit his own version of Godhood that the levels of his polutions hide the truths.
Te present version of those holders of "Their Truths" recognizes no sin man can commit except denial of the Holy Trinity, as they lie cheat and steal in an attempt to bring back that Trinity by doing the job that trinity was supposed to do, mainly kill all unbeleivers of the Trinity.
That the trinity beleivers in "Their Truth" do not come right out and admit that they will also kill the ones who wrote the first lies for not telling the lies of the second writings is part of that no sin except the sin philosophy.
Today the first liars need second liars help in killing off another group that threatens to expose both their lies with ther own version of "Truth" means the other can commit no sin as they lie and use each other just as long as the first truth does not have to fear immediate destruction by either side until after they rid the earth of the third writings.
All this lies and misery stemming from those lies means that someday somewhere, presently it is a big field within I*srael, they will all meet to see whose lie is the best lie, winner take all.
May they all lie in rest and be Left Behind so the rest of us can finaly have some peace and quiet that many thinkers wrote of within those writings but because of their ignorance and hubris were hid by them from rest of world.
Money is the root of all evil, or so they say, and power corrupts absolutly, well they earn, as a group just in Us, some 450 billion tax free dollars a year and that amount of money leaves them feeling that they absolutley are Gods Chosen ones and can buy all the power they need to prove it.

The Christian Right has been forming strong ties for thirty years and got a foot hold during the Reagan era. They remind me of a plague and I can't help but wonder just what it is that infiltrates their brain: an ether, or some mysterious fume that kills their brain cells. Believe me, these people can be dangerous as well as wicked if you disagree with them. When they approach my door, I say get out of here. And they reply, have a nice day. And I reply, I was having the time of my life until you right wing wackos knocked at my door. Throw them all out. I think they must be mad. I know they make me mad but still I wonder, just what happened to their mind. Or did they ever have a mind of their own.?

These are things I believe:

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Bumper sticker

"Right is right, even if everyone is against it; and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it." William Penn

"As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it." Dick Cavett

"The world in which you were born is just one model of reality. Other cultures are not failed attempts at being you, they are unique manifestations of the human spirit."
Wade Davis

"It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value." Arthur C. Clarke

Cartoon Mesiah -Christ fought against the Jewish "Church" of his time, and agains Jewish Law and tradition - and hypocrisy. He was the world's first great revolutionary in a truly political sense. His "render unto Ceasar" bit was an indication that he was not concerned with Rome, but with his own people, the Jewish people, and what they could achieve morally and spiritually if the were free from the Law and simply loved their neighbor as they loved themselves.

You know nothing about Judaism. The Jews brought morality and spirituality onto this earth precisely because they clung to the law. They were not slave to the law. They loved it. You people pretend that the Hebrew scriptures are a part of your bible, but then you claim that it means nothing. The fact is that they were only included as part of your bible as an attempt to use them as "proofs" to try to convert Jews. The new testament, however stands alone and nothing in the Jewish scriptures predicts Jesus. However, everything that Jesus taught was already part of the law. He taught nothing new as he drew from the tradition from which he was raised.

Jesus was a part of the times in which he lived. He lived in a world which was dominated by Rome. The Jews were the curse of the Roman empire. They hated the Jews for not cooperating with their subjugation. From the time the Romans replaced their rightful king from the Hasmonean line with Herod, an Idumean, not a Jew, the Jews wanted a rightful King back on the throne. It certainly seems that Jesus was that man. He was certainly well connected. He had people in his entourage that were associated with the resistance. As the above postings show, he encouraged resistance.

Jesus was not g-d. He was just a man. Perhaps even the legitimate heir to the throne. That was too big a threat to the Romans. After the Empire started to crumble and Chritianity started to spread, The Romans couldn't very well tell their people that they killed their own "g-d," so they blamed it on the Jews. The rest is history.

Thanks tbonez, yes my point is that there's always talk of how the right wing has "subverted christianity's peaceful intentions", but can one say the bible is peaceful after a little run thru it's pages?

for example the slaughter that happened after looking in the Ark:

1st samuel 6:19

6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.
6:20 And the men of Bethshemesh said, Who is able to stand before this holy LORD God? and to whom shall he go up from us?

"because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men:"

not killed for murder. not killed for rape. not killed for child molesting. killed for "looking into the Ark"????

over 50,000 people killed for looking in what was essentially a box? gimme a break? this is peacefulness? please tell me what crime was exactly committed? the god of christianity is NOT peaceful. how come christians are quick to quote psalms and some other verses in the OT, but neglect to explain how this is "loving" or just?

there are many fine christians and thankfully they don't follow everything that is in this ancient book. "good book"? how is it really good?

godlessrant
I could not agree with you more. I think all religion is written to appear to be wholesome and just ,when the text is actually laced with violence and wrath, but always to the none believers.
Religion = Divison plain and simple.
Cartoon Messiah
"There was only one Christian, and he died on the Cross."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Could not be closer to the truth. Only Jesus new who he was and what his relationship to God was. All this stuff has been passed down, written and rewritten.
Plus should it be taken literally of figuratively?

Perfect example of what godlessrant quoted:

I came not to send peace, but a sword. … A man's foes shall be they of his own household."
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Does this mean literally he came with a sword to slay his fellows a pit people against their families?

or
does he figuratively mean he came to break down the establisment and pit your beleifs(or his new ones) of you godly connection to the beliefs of you predessesors?
So it is a slippery slope, but that is what I have been saying. Religion divides period. You either believe this or your out. We must all find that inner guidance or we're doomed
Peace

IGNORANCE IS NOT BLISS, IT IS UNFORGIVABLE!

What you see today is a result of a well-planned dumbing down of America, that went into high gear toward the end of the Vietnam era. The ruling class hired the pros to manipulate the public . They set up so-called think tanks, paying big money to "intellectual" experts who wrote books and articles for newspapers and magazines, made appearances on tv and radio shows and the lecture circuit, promoting the neo-liberal, right-wing doctrine of corporate godhood backed by the military and police agencies. When they realized the power of invoking Christianity and "god" in their crusade to turn the public into non-thinking automotons who would adhere to such a pious philosophy, the power elite had cause to celebrate. Hence, this article on Common Dreams.

"Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" and, "eternal vigilence", and one of my heros, the great George Seldes whose book "NEVER TIRE OF PROTESTING" has become my motto.

Peace and Harmony, Love and Compassion, and Understanding, to all in the world.

Oebi is right i'm afraid.

jesus wasn't really peaceful:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (10:34-36)
I came not to send peace, but a sword. ... A man's foes shall be they of his own household."
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

the bible is filled with murders of entire cities. a man onan was killed just for spilling his seed outside of his dead brother's wife. 50k plus people were killed just for looking in the Ark.

almost the entire world was drowned in noah's flood.

and on and on and on. and if we don't believe, we are destined to be boiled forever in god's eternal wok pot "hell"

Loving? honestly, folks is it? read the bible, i mean really read it, and don't ignore the OT as "the old law".

frankly i am sick of hearing that christianity is a peaceful religion. it is NOT. peace loving christians have thankfully taken only the good parts of the bible.

these violent games are just a continuation of what is in the bible.

"There was only one Christian, and he died on the Cross."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

There is nothing so absurd a distortion and inversion of the teachings of a great soul by such petty and base creatures as the Christian "Church". Christ fought against the Jewish "Church" of his time, and agains Jewish Law and tradition - and hypocrisy. He was the world's first great revolutionary in a truly political sense. His "render unto Ceasar" bit was an indication that he was not concerned with Rome, but with his own people, the Jewish people, and what they could achieve morally and spiritually if the were free from the Law and simply loved their neighbor as they loved themselves.
That someone should struggle and fight constantly for more temporal power, more riches, and yet be absolved and forgiven by Christ by going to Church on Sunday is the greatest lie of that power-hungry institution.
The sad fact is that I doubt that the elites of America who take advantage of this particularly fanatical and dangerous strain of Christianity really believe, and certainly don't anticipate with any pleasure, the thought of an apocalypse. After all, those in charge are convinced materialists, and the idea of losing their material possessions in some world-spanning cataclysm of biblical proportions is anathema to them. They also must certainly realize that, if this shit is real, then as they are sinners of the highest order, they aren't taking part in any rapture!

The funny thing about beliefs is they have to be defended. They need all this dogma and rules and regulations to defend them. Truth on the other hand doesn't. Truth stands alone never needing to be defended but just uncoved. I've always said it is better to beleive in nothing and go from there, than to believe in something that was imposed on you by others. Only then can you uncover what truely resonates with you. Ive always liked the following line from Bill Hicks:

"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration … that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather.".

Every day brings new stories that strain my credulity. Is there no end to this descent into hell?

Here's a REALLY scary thought: It is March 2009, President Hillary has pulled the troops back to the "perimeter" of Iraq admidst howls of outrage from the Right Wing Noise Machine that she has "lost" the war. Tens of thousands of disgruntled veterans who've been playing this stupid game are sent home and discharged into a sputtering economy that has no decent jobs for them.

Shake well, and TA DA, a REAL fascist movement emerges right here in the homeland.

That's the agenda here.

What Bible are YOU reading, Oebi Wan? The Catholic Church until fairly recently may have required mindless obedience, but Jesus Christ most certainly does not. He shared his wisdom with his followers in the form of parables, encouraging them to think for themselves.

Try not to confuse the medium with the message. Better yet, try going straight to the source: the Gospels. Other posters have commented eloquently on the need to differentiate between fundamentalist "Christians" and the more faithful kind so I won't elaborate on that, except to say that I appreciate the fact that the blanket anti-Christian rhetoric has toned down considerably on these pages in recent weeks.

Many Christians, including myself, are appalled by groups like the one described in this article, and consider their actions the ultimate breaking of the commandment to not take the name of the Lord in vain, by using the name of Christ to foist on others the worst kinds of arrogance, hatred, violence and greed.

Jesus told us that anyone who failed to care for the poor and hungry would not be welcome in his kingdom. I wonder what he'll do with people who call themselve Christians and CREATE additional suffering in the world???

This type of video game is merely a form of brainwash. Desensitizing the act of murder, slaughter, toture and destruction. Since we are not winning the hearts and mind we will slaughter the enemy in the name of Jesus. Then god will come down and take us to heaven because we are Christian beleivers. We are on the side of God, Gods army, so we will go off and kill other children of God because um... because um... because umm... oh because they believe in god too, but he is not the right God!!! blah...blah...blah..Humans can justify just about anything, except for taking reponsibility for their own actions.

Amazing... and this is a place where the reasonably intelligent hang out to read and blog? It seems that most don't "get it" yet. When it comes to Religion, which is, by definiton, faith-based (i.e. non-rational) there is NO Rational arguement FOR or AGAINST. It is all merely pissing in the wind.
Moreover, this is more than ample evidence that - despite the unbelievable Love and Creativity and Compassion and Beautiful Music and Stories and all that is Best in relatively few Humans - the rest of the 8 Billion are nothing but rampaging, raping, murderous, and dangerously INSANE Apes that somehow escaped from the Zoo of Africa !!!

It's not the teachings of the the Galilean master that are in question; a reading of his Sermon on the Mount tells us of his universal call for peace among all men.

Its only in the brooding, egotistical cauldron of the mind of men that His sacrifice was twisted into meaning he died for OUR sins for eternity. He didn't. Yes, his life is an inspiration and a model for us to hope we could obtain someday ("ye shall do greater things then even I") but his sacrifice on the cross was to take on the Karma of his disciples, to cleanse them (prepare the vessel to contain the enormity of cosmic consciousness,) that they would be ready for his return visit, three days later and the moment when he would confer upon them the Holy Ghost. Once anointed with the vision of eternal life, and having removed the lie that is death (that the soul-consciousness DOES live beyond the body), they then had the internal knowledge and thus the courage, to face the certain death that would visit them as they went out to preach the "good news" in a dark and cruel world.

How far has "religion" twisted this truth, as can be seen any Sunday in "Christian" churches and on the TV every night as charlatans and hawkers of fairy tales and fables scam the unwitting of their small finances to visit suffering on all who dare speak truth to power.

To Sir Melvin and others who have expressed such vehement anger:

When you refer to Christians as "scum of the earth" do you include in that Father Roy Bourgeois, who leads the annual protest at the School of the Americas at Ft. Benning, GA? Or how about the hundreds of people each year, a great many of whom (perhaps the majority) are Christians, who go to that protest? Are they the scum of the earth? And does the epithet, in your mind, also apply to Dr. Martin Luther King, who, of course, also was a Christian?

The point I'm trying to make here simply is that Christianity, like pretty much anything else, including other religions, is largely what you make of it. Father Bourgeois, Martin Luther King, the liberation theologists of Latin America--all these have made of it something good. Pat Robertson and all the other minions of the "Christian Right" have twisted it into something evil. But of course, that such a twisting would occur was predicted by no less than Jesus himself--who said there would be "false prophets" purporting to be his followers, who would "come in my name", but who in reality would be wolves in sheep's clothing.

Jesus' teachings were very similar to the Buddha's--compassion, nonviolence, love, mercy, and understanding. Try and remember that, and don't let your thoughts be tainted by some who purport--deceitfully--to be his followers.

This type of missionary program where you bomb and occupy a country then give them Bibles is a slightly different approach than Jesus used to gain followers.

I don't think we should blame Jesus for this problem.

Please do not deride all Christians and think they are all on the same page...

There are a lot of good Bible-believing Christians who do not believe the theology of the West vs. the rest/Islam, etc. It's not Biblical.

There are many Bible-believing Christians who disagree with the Israel-only theological agenda, as not being true to the Bible or prophecies. We also have not forgotten that Jesus was peace-loving and against the use of force. (Which the "Left Behind" game seems to contradict!)

I read in the Bible that Jesus treated with respect those who held different theology, even "erroneous" theology, but didn't denounce their religion. Rather, he simply said, "Someday you will worship [God] in both spirit and in truth."

Again, please do not attack all Christians. Not all so-called Christians follow Christ (ironically).

apocalyptic fantasies are part & parcel of the judaeo-xian-muslim scriptural tradition. but there are two interesting features about the US: it's foundation as a "city on a hill," as The New World (promised by the prophet Isaiah, i believe), and all that puritan crap somebody pointed out above. the 2nd thing is disappointment w/that new world: the US declares itself the end (destiny) of humanity (fukuyama's end of history and the last man nonsense); such an end is very, very disappointing. the glorious New Jerusalem/Promised Land is a bitter joke. so that end of humanity is in danger of literally becoming the end (death) of humanity.

these fundies are whackos and there are different factors involved, but one of them is profound disappointment w/the myth of America.

More like Right Behinds, Eternal Farces resurrecting the rupture among the children of Abraham for miserepublican FUNDAMENTal missions.

AMANDLA says, "The Christian right (and the menace it presents to civilized society) is pretty much ignored in the US because it is a popular, widespread mindset in this country." This is a MOST inaccurate statement, when it has been the Christian reich/right that has delivered the nation to Bush. THAT is his voting block!
URTHSONG says, "Spirituality is good. It is when authoritarian cult mind control is practiced, isolating people from others and putting a stop to questioning and tolerance, that religion becomes twisted and harmful. Those who blame all Christians..." I have been to unitarian churches and I agree, they are a very enlightened environment. The same CAN be said of certain sects, but this is apples to oranges, friend! This discussion would not be necessary if this very dark, aggressive and SAVAGE species of Christianity was not being consciously fomented as a means to rev up soldiers for a "holy" war. Sure, it's about oil, the failing US dollar and a host of other issues; but tired soldiers will fight harder if they really think GOD has something to do with the battle. Besides, this phony sense of impunity eases the amoral act of murdering OTHER simply because their identity has been drummed up into an enemy fiction.
POET: One of your best postings and obviously I agree.
I would LOVE to see religion lift minds, hearts and actions but when it is being USED for the opposite purposes and when MILLIONS go along with this tide, then religion must be challenged. Here religion is being used for the purposes of WAR.
REBEL NOW says, "When we learn to drop ALL ideologies this murderous psychosis will end." This is a solid statement, one to which I whole heartedly agree. However, since Europe has the greatest footprint of aggression upon the world, and since Europe has largely followed some version of Christianity, although one can find violence in just about every world culture, NO singular religion has as much blood on its hands as the Christians. The two fiercest images that come to my mind include the BURNING of women accused of witchcraft, a disgusting sadistic spectacle that purportedly killed over a million women. This is religion? Second, the way the indigenous were "converted," or otherwise tortured for failing to accept Jesus as their savior. As if Christ would have validated the diabolical levels of brutality done in his name. I realize the Jews in Israel are using equally disgusting aggressive tactics, and that many Muslims are capable of violence, too. If societies taught peace we would probably see a max of l0% of any population show violence, but when religion justifies violence in its own name, then we can see upwards of 80% of populations become sheep following one another over a moral cliff. THAT is the place US society has come to... BECAUSE it is the zealots who are fueling a presidency that is BENT upon war and destruction. The TRUTH is the only thing that can break this spell, and if we have an interest in living, in releasing this planet to new generations, we'd better speak the truth about this or a 21st century crusade armed with nuclear weapons and the pathetic concept of a big bang, could indeed replicate quite a big bang and take most of us along.

As posted on Huffington, last Sunday, great read ----

"Current events have inspired me to read old texts. From the translation of
Alexis De Toucqueville's Forward to The old Regimen and the French Revolution
(Stuart Gilbert translation from 1955)

"For in a community in which the ties of family, of caste, of class, and of
craft fraternities no longer exist people are far too much disposed to think
exclusively of their own interests, to become self-seekers practicing a narrow
individualism and caring nothing for the public good. Far from trying to
counteract such tendencies despotism encourages them, depriving the governed of
any sense of solidarity and interdependence; of good-neighborly feelings and a
desire to further the welfare of the community at large. It immures
(Definition: confines within a wall) them, so to speak, each in his private
life and, taking advantage of the tendency they already have to keep apart, it
estranges them still more. Their feelings toward each other were already
growing cold; despotism freezes them.

Since in such communities nothing is stable, each man is haunted by a fear of
sinking to a lower social level and by a restless urge to better his condition.
And since money has not only become the sole criterion of a man's social status
but has also acquired an extreme mobility--that is to say it changes hands
incessantly, raising or lowering the prestige of individuals and
families--everybody is feverishly intent on making money or, if already rich,
on keeping his wealth intact. Love of gain, a fondness for business careers,
the desire to get rich at all costs, a craving for the material comfort and
easy living quickly become ruling passions under a despotic government. They
affect all classes, even those who hitherto have seemed allergic to them, and
tend to lower the moral standards of the nation as a whole if no effort be made
to chack their growth. It is in the nature of despotism that it should foster
such desires and propagate their havoc. Lowering as they do the national
morale, they are despotism's safeguard, since they divert men's attention from
public affairs and make them shudder at the mere thought of a revolution.
Despotism alone can provide that atmosphere of secrecy which favors crooked
dealings and enables the freebooters (Definition: A person who pillages and
plunders, especially a pirate) of finance to make illicit fortunes. Under other
forms of government such propensities exist, undoubtedly; under a despotism
they are given free rein."

And while there are strong parallels, there are two significant differences
between then and now. First, the "peasants" (as De Tocqueville calls them) of
today don't know how to deal with hardship; and second, the internet has
availed us of powers of association and knowledge which was not then available,
for at least this moment.

...not to be crass or crude or anything.

Military Religious Freedom Foundation?

That phrase reads like a Republican wingnut orgasm.

American appointed political officials under the Bush/Cheney administration do not have any foresight because they believe in the Crusade. It would seem, as more of the high-ranking officers retire, the Bush administration has been busily replacing them with religious crusaders as quickly as possible. Look at General Peter Pace waxing religious over the "don't ask, don't tell" nonsense. If Bush bombs Iran, you can bet that more will resign who want no part of it. That would leave the willing crusaders to carry out the war crimes. Note to the comment about Unitarians: I am a Christian Unitarian Universalist. But we have Jews, a Buddhist, atheists, agnostics and others in our democratically-run congregation with no problem because we have no creed other than respect for all and active efforts to help others and bring about justice and peace to our communities and world. Spirituality is good. It is when authoritarian cult mind control is practiced, isolating people from others and putting a stop to questioning and tolerance, that religion becomes twisted and harmful. Those who blame all Christians in America for what the extreme right does understand nothing about the historic impact on America of Christians and Jews for positive good.

No one should be surprised that this is going on. The president has always stated his allegiance to the American Taliban segment of the population, publicly and proudly. The problem lies with a US media which continually invokes the spectre of an evil, creeping fundamentalist brand of Islam seeking to sweep away Western civilization, yet tosses all pretense of objectivity out the door by failing to note that the viewpoint of many Americans is just as religiously fanatical as the Taliban's or al-Qa'ida's.

As much as anyone in the media may boast of objectivity when reporting anything, we all convey our biases in one way or another and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, unless you're out hypocritically trumpeting your supposed objectivity to everyone.

The Christian right (and the menace it presents to civilized society) is pretty much ignored in the US because it is a popular, widespread mindset in this country. People may not like to think of themselves in comparison to the Taliban or other extremist religious sects around the world, but the truth is the truth.

While we're busy demanding that less radical Muslims reign in their more radical brethren, we need to look closely at our own situation. The Christian right (let's not forget their far-right Zionist friends) is primed for fascism, they feel very confident at this point in time, and they've always been given a pass by society-at-large.

Sometimes I wonder who has the crusade agenda...is it OBL or the right-wing Christian fundas...?

Brutality, terror, killing and pillaging is not limited to any particular prevailing ideology, religion, or tribe, it's our history as humanity, or should I say our inhumanity, going back for as far into our past as we can see. We seem to always be able to justify our brutality in the name of some fanciful IDEAL.
When we learn to drop ALL ideologies this murderous psychosis will end. I'm not waiting for it to happen in my lifetime, it may take thousands of years. Meanwhile I do what I can, but really? the killing, the maiming, the brutality will continue and there is little to nothing we rationalists can do about it except watch and shake our heads in disgust.

Cleophus

The congressman you referred to was Keith Ellison.
And he DID take his oath using a two-volume
Koran once owned by Thomas Jefferson.

Of course numerous right-wing blogs and articles,
including one by Judge Roy "Ten Commandments in the
Courthouse" Moore, called it un-American.

Four US presidents have taken office without swearing
the oath on a Bible. And various other office
holders have sworn their oaths on the Hebrew
Bible or Jewish prayer books.

Real true born again Christians do not lie, steal and kill.
Let's pray for our America.
Let's ask our Lord and Saviour to forgive us.
Let's vote for John Edwards as our next president
Let's pray and support our troops wherever they are.
I am very appreciateve of this site. Thanks for keeping us informed.

You cannot judge a belief by it's misuse. The message of Christ was not a violent message. To sum up the message and beliefs that Jesus came to teach would be this: Love and treat people the way you want to be treated and God gave us all free will to live our lives how we choose.
True followers of Christ understand these concepts and would not agree with violence of any kind carried out in the name of our religion.
Violence stops somewhere and a good starting point is loving thy neighbor, whoever they are.
God gave us free will so that we could choose how we wanted to live our lives, even if we choose the wrong things, it is our choice. So no one but God has the right to tell someone how they should live their life. It is not a Christian's place to judge or punish someone for how they choose to live, that right belongs soley to God.

"A frustrated U.S. general even ordered troops to kill every Philippine male over age ten."

That's Yahweh for you.

Siouxrose wrote:

Lately when I go about my travels and look about like some kind of detached cosmic observer, the degree to which our world has been broken shakes my soul; and then I look into the innocent eyes of my 21 month old grandson, and wonder how all this came to be, and what it is his life will have to overcome, if he like his peers is to live on this once magnificent planet.

*****************

Kivals wrote:

With all the pain in modern US society, opiates sell, and evangelical Christianity is apparently one hell of an opiate.

**********

I think both of you have yanked at the the nail of this problem (or untwisted the screw of this problem if that is your preferred metaphor)

To plagerize Edward R. Murrow's famous analysis of Joseph McCarthy, neocons did not invent this situation they merely exploited it while the moderate to progressive voices of society remained mute and offerd no meaningful rebuttal.

If you want proof recall any of the Democratic presidential debates so far and try real hard to find anything that would distinguish the likes of Hillary, Barak O, Richardson, Dodd, or Biden from the prevailing war philosophy of the current adminstration.

When and where did her royal highness Ms. Nancy Pelosi or Senator Harry Reid declare, "hell no we won't go along with this crap and let there be blood in the streets before we roll over and play dead to the mad men and women in the White House and their administration!

They are all like so many bought and paid for ladies of the night whose pimps are the well-endowed corporate interests and think-tank academics who firmly hold their rhinestone- studded leashes.

What we have is a ruling elite with a vested interest in the growing despair and hopelessness of even greater segments of the American population because desperate people isolated from any sense of community are easy targets for being sold the poisonous nostrums of intolerant scapegoating and are willing to believe any magical rhetorical crap spewed forth by their maximum leaders. (See any Bush administratiion press conference or briefing).

It is how Mussolini and Hitler got their start in post WWI Italy and Germany and uless we start turning off the TV and start reaching out to one another in moderate dialog it is how those 80 million or so brown shirts already part of the Christo-Fascist evangelical movement will be swollen to tens of millions of more voting age people.

First rule of a totalitarian dictatorship:

Believe no official statement unless it is a denial and then believe what is being denied.

Second Rule of a totalitarian dictatorship:

What they will do to gays, lesbians, abortion providers, and femninists they will do to anyone else--it's just a matter of how far down on their "to do" list you are.

Third rule of a totalitarian dictatorship:

The most effective way to oppose their activities is to form alternative commuity that support, inform, and defend one another--communities united by that on which they agree and not divided by that on which they diasagree.

How many of your neighbors do you know?

When was the last time you spoke ro any of them?

How often do you get together socially?

Do you have any ideas of how they feel about neighborhood, city, state or national matters?

Even if they are the cultural, racial, social, political, and/or ethnic oposite of you can you find something, anything to respect about them?

Until all of us can answer these questions and act on them we are just sitting ducks either waiting to come under the thrall and sway of authnoritarian movememnts or (in the alternative) to put a bulseye on our backsides to be picked off one at a time when it is the time.to do so.

There is a website called, George W. Bush is the antichrist

and another one called, liberals like Christ.

I can't seem to make links work. Sorry

christianity has been the most destructive force in the history of mankind.

The title of this article is quite intriguing. I am not surprised by either "crusade" war rhetoric, or the collusion between the US government and the Christian zealots. The invasion of Native American land itself started with that rhetoric and some of the US presidents have been fierce christian zealots.

The English Puritan revolution was justified repeatedly by biblical analogies drawn from the OT. Using a rather dubious interpretation of the book of Daniel, the revolutionaries saw themselves as "the Saints of the Most High," commissioned to execute judgment on kings and nobles. Oliver Cromwell drew a parallel between his revolution and the exodus and proceeded to treat the Catholics of Ireland as the Canaanites. He even declared that "there are great occasions in which some men are called to great services in the doing of which they are excused from the common rule of morality," as were the heroes of the OT. The Puritans of New England applied the biblical texts about the conquest to their own situation, casting the Native American tribes in the role of the Canaanites and Amalekites. In 1689, Cotton Mather urged the colonists to go forth against "Amalek annoying this Israel in the wilderness." A few years later, one Herbert Gibbs gave thanks for "the mercies of God in extirpating the enemies of Israel in Canaan." Similar rhetoric persisted in American Puritanism through the eighteenth century, and indeed biblical analogies have continued to play a part in American political rhetoric down to the present.

The presidents of the US in their "colonizing crusade" invoked the "Christian God". President McKinley said, "We're going into the Philippines to civilize and Christianize the Filipinos." He said: "I went down on my knees and prayed to Almighty God for light and I guidance more than one night. And one night late it came to me: 1) I That we could not give them [the Philippines] back to Spain — that would be cowardly and dishonorable; 2) that we could not turn them over to France and Germany — our commercial rivals in the Orient — that would be bad business and discreditable; 3) that we could not leave them to themselves — they were unfit for self-government — and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain's was; and 4) that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God's grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died. And then I went to bed, and went to sleep, and slept soundly, and the next morning I sent for the ... War Department map-maker, and I told him to put the Philippines on the map of the United States (pointing to a large wall map), and there they are, and there they will stay while I am President!"

Until 1933, 120,000 U.S. troops occupied the Philippines. "Pacifying" those "heathens" took longer than McKinley thought and brought out the brute in the soul of U.S. Christian soldiers. A frustrated U.S. general even ordered troops to kill every Philippine male over age ten. Fortunately, that order was not carried out, but U.S. troops did slay up to 200,000 Philippine men and women in three years, until overwhelming superiority in weapons and sheer ruthlessness overcame local resistance forces. Two thousand U.S. "Christian crusaders" died, as well. This bloody war on the Philippines lasted seven years, which involved massacres and the extermination of populations. The US had "civilized" and "Christianized" the Filipinos and established its control. One critical citizen satirized McKinley's war: "G is for guns/ That McKinley has sent/ To teach Filipinos/ What Jesus Christ meant."

U.S. President William McKinley's words should echo with President Bush. Bush has confessed that he talks to God and hears His words. Like McKinley, Bush understands that the stars and stripes stand for inseparable U.S. commercial interests and Christian zealot purposes.The Christian zealots of the time praised McKinley's will in overcoming Satan (Phililippinos) with military force. Now the descendents of these zealots that counseled McKinley, push Armageddon and Rapture as themes of U.S. war policy. Few days after 9/11 President Bush called his war on terrorism as "This crusade."

The world knows that it was Rev. Jerry Falwel, who was instrumental in making Ronald Reagan as the US president. The Christain zealot crusader Billy Graham validated the immoral and unethical Vietnam war. Christian zealot crusaders like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, influence the US goverment and its polices. Everyone knows that the US mercinary company "Blackwater", which is active in Iraq and Somalia, funds some of the Christian zealot crusaders, like James Dobson. Watch Trinity Broadcasting Network,where you will see the US christian crusaders (that is, US soldiers) distributing christian literature in Iraq and Afghanistan. That means the American christian evangelism includes genocidal activities and distribution of christian literature.

The author writes that "many of our enemies in the Middle East believe that the world is locked in a contest between christianity and Islam." Who are these "enemies"? Are they really "enemies" of the US or is the US projecting "them" as "enemies" in order to occupy sovereign countries by mercilessly killing innocent people with the rhetoric of CRUSADE. It is not the "enemies" who are the CREATORS of this rhetoric, "CRUSADE" is one of the PILLARS of the US foreign policy. Otherwise it can not convince its "zealous" citizens for invasion of other countries and its genocidal activities.

Let me tell you US christianity is not the Christianity that is being practised in other parts of the world. Atleast what I understand is that the God who has revealed himself (herself) in Jesus Christ is not a BLOOD-THIRSTY MONSTER, but the ONE WHO HAS MADE HIMSELF (HERSELF) VULNERABLE AND THUS IDENTIFIED HIMSELF (HERSELF) WITH THE VICTIMS OF SOCIO-RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE TO THE EXTENT OF DYING AS A POLITICAL "CRIMINAL".

THEREFORE, THE US "ZEALOT" (AND CRUSADE) CHRISTIANITY DOES NOT REPRESENT GOD REPRESENTED BY JESUS CHRIST.

jesus, save me from your followers.

There is a local politician where I live who for forty years has been telling, and whenever possible, legislating how everyone else should live (what and how much to drink, prohibitions against gambling, sex, birth control, etc.)

He was charged today with aiding and abetting prostitution (paying for sex in a motel in a neighboring town). He has resigned as the head of some Republican linked, right wing Baptist organization.

After a lifetime of making life full of guilt and shame for everybody else (i.e. except for those who knew he was the self-righteous blowhard I knew him to be) he now is full of pleas for forgiveness and understanding.

"What you did to me---that I forgive you, but what you did to yourself---how could I forgive you that?"---Nietzsche

This illustrates sufficient of one example that Christians are the scum of the Earth. American Christians believe the falsehood that they are more righteous and vituous than Muslims, even persecute them in their own country. I recall a Muslim politician who was recently elected in the USA, yet would not allow him to swear on the Koran. If an individual runs for President Governor or any other office, they had better be the in the correct denomintion of Christianity, such as the Assembly of God or the Southern Baptists.

Genocides happened from actions that the Christians have done. These so-called Islamofascists - an oxymoron, as Americans should know, but unfortunately do not for obvious reasons sort of like how Christianrationalists would be an oxymoron as well - are doing exactly what the Christians have done during The Crusades in which the Catholics killed other Christians and Muslims. Christians by no means are experts on virtue nor in any position to claim they are more righteous than Muslims.

Remember the price paid to Jewish people for their domination of commerce and finance throughout Europe for several centuries? Remember that your demographic may suffer the same fate. A FATE YOU RIGHTLTY DESERVE! What do I mean by "fate" and "the price paid" Christians? Use your imagination, if you can. Christians throughout the world have not been punished as of yet for their involvement of initiating wars, the Salem witch burnings, the persecution of homosexuals, falsifying scientific reports, slave holders, selective reading and deliberate ignoring of their vague ambiguous and contradictory book (note that the Koran is less vague and not as many contradictions as the Holy Bible has), abuse of Government power, etc. etc.

Now some people may be offended by what I said. What I have written is not nearly as offensive as Christians persecuting and killing people associated with various demographics. Not all Christians are bad people one may say? Well not all Muslims, pagans, feminists, gay people, atheists, doctors, and witches are bad either. The United Church of Christ, the Unitarians, and other more tolerant and loving Christians are, unfortunately, in the minority. Assembly of God, Pentacost, and other fundamentalist Christian denominations represent real Christians. Obviously, the latter have more exposure in America than the former ones. Therefore their congregations are larger. So spare the defense that "I am a nice Christian who does not read the LEFT BEHIND books or believe in its theology" becasue I simply will not believe you. Most Christians in The United States support torturing foreigners, invading Iraq, eliminating Habeus Corpus, and believe that people who visit the USA for vacation should not be treated at hospitals if they are injured.

So what do you have to say for yourselves now Holy Rollers?!

The following is an excerpt from a longer posting at:

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2717

" The Christian fundamentalist and Christian Zionist worldview converges with the agenda of neoconservatives like William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard; syndicated journalists William Safire and Charles Krauthammer; and the chief advisers in the Bush White House -- Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith and Elliott Abrams, Many of these figures used to work with pro-Israel think tanks such as AIPAC; MEMBI (Middle East Media Research Institute); JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs); and the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Perle narrowly escaped conviction for trading intelligence secrets with Israel in the late 1970s, and Abrams was convicted (and pardoned by Reagan) in the Iran-Israel-contra weapons and financial scandal.

The neo-conservatives' quest for U.S. domination of the oil fields in the Middle East and of military and economic geopolitics in that region aligns neatly with the views of Harvard scholar Samuel P. Huntington, whose "clash of civilizations" theory divides the world into the West vs. the Rest. In the Huntington scenario, Islam is the force most hostile to U.S. interests -- a point of view that fits well with the "evil empire" rhetoric and the Antichrist scenarios found among the Christian Zionists. The "clash of civilizations" rhetoric often takes on theological overtones, as it did in the president's 2002 and 2003 State of the Union addresses.

The advisers around Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney are driving their views home. Anatol Lieven, writing recently in the London Review of Books, points to a 1996 policy paper "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," by Perle and Douglas Feith, which advised Netanyahu to abandon the Oslo peace process and return to military repression of the Palestinians. The policy statement was developed in an Israeli think tank, the Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies. The document seems to have played a large part in shaping the Bush administration's strategy on Iraq, and perhaps for redrawing Middle East borders according to the Likud vision."

For more entertainment, just Google words such as:

Zionists evangelical Christian fundamentalists Israel likud party

With all the pain in modern US society, opiates sell, and evangelical Christianity is apparently one hell of an opiate.

I'm sad to say, but those fundamentalist crazies apparently have read their bibles better than you.

Christianity is not a peace-loving religion, it is the exact opposite and it demands blind obedience to even the most idiotic rules, thoroughly mistrusts critical thought and despises own initiative, please read the fucking texts and read what it says not what you'd love it to say. Christianity does not belong in this time, it belongs in a multiple shattered form of opposite theologies about two millenia ago. Everything after that was an abomination or the texts are even wrong in that you cannot judge the tree by the fruit it bares. Endtime-fruit with their fingers on a nuclear arsenal. It's just surreal.

Saw a bumper sticker once that sums it up for me:

The Christian Right are not right Christians.

There's been one major monster that I've feared my whole life - the collective mind of religious zealots, and what they've done throughout history. And now that monster is quickly coming together again. I seem to recall reading somewhere that in every department of "our!??" government, there is now a "Faith Based" office, funded of course with our taxes.

MURDERER (by Low)

One more thing before I go,
One more thing I'll ask you, Lord:
You may need a murderer,
Someone to do your dirty work.
Don't act so innocent:
I've seen you pound your fists into the earth
And I've read your books.
Seems that you could use another fool--
Well, I'm cruel
And I look right through...
You must have more important things to do,
So if you need a murderer,
Someone to do your dirty work...

The data and theme of this article express the exact reason why I show such passion for this zealous form of Christianity which in my view simulates a viable "anti Christ" for its using the NAME of God as "permission to kill, sir" and thus inverting, tainting and rendering into blasphemy the TRUE teachings of Christ and other enlighened masters. Because religion relies upon faith, and because it works on emotions, those ensconced in its clutches CANNOT reason. When they are trained to believe the enemy is not worthy of their compassion, they lose any sense of their own and the other persons' humanity. This is a diabolical combination. It also dovetails especially well (creating a 3-fold easy fit) with the basic personality of authoritarian types (who want a father figure giving them recipes for life, and rules to follow. When the rules are disobeyed, punishment then becomes viable) and those who are deeply attracted to sports with their color coding, team affilitations and dramatic attachment to competition and who wins. These mindsets have taken over MILLIONS of people, people in positions of power and people that are heavily armed. Can you imagine a worse possible scenario? Oh, perhaps the way nature is responding in the palpable waves of global warming. Lately when I go about my travels and look about like some kind of detached cosmic observer, the degree to which our world has been broken shakes my soul; and then I look into the innocent eyes of my 21 month old grandson, and wonder how all this came to be, and what it is his life will have to overcome, if he like his peers is to live on this once magnificent planet.

How have we let the fundamentalist Christians, as well as the Islamic and Zionist extremists get such a stranglehold on the majority of the worlds peaceful populations? Why do we buy into their fear and hatred?
We most certainly are in a struggle of benevolent vs malicious forces but it is not Christians vs Muslims vs Jews, it's all peace loving people vs their idiotic, fanatical and out of control leaders.