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Bush League War Drums Beating Louder on Iran
It is as though I'm back as an analyst at the CIA, trying to estimate the chances of an attack on Iran. The putative attacker, though, happens to be our own president.
It is precisely the kind of work we analysts used to do. And, while it is still a bit jarring to be turning our analytical tools on the U.S. leadership, it is by no means entirely new. For, of necessity, we Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) have been doing that for almost six years now-ever since 9/11, when "everything changed."
Of necessity? Yes, because, with very few exceptions, American journalists put their jobs at grave risk if they expose things like fraudulent wars.
The craft of CIA analysis was designed to be an all-source operation, meaning that we analysts were responsible-and held accountable-for assimilating information from all sources and coming to judgments on what it all meant. We used data of various kinds, from the most sophisticated technical collection platforms, to spies, to-not least-open media.
Here I must reveal a trade secret and risk puncturing the mystique of intelligence analysis. Generally speaking, 80 percent of the information one needs to form judgments on key intelligence targets or issues is available in open media. It helps to have been trained-as my contemporaries and I had the good fortune to be trained-by past masters of the discipline of media analysis, which began in a structured way in targeting Japanese and German media in the 1940s. But, truth be told, anyone with a high school education can do it. It is not rocket science.
Reporting From Informants
The above is in no way intended to minimize the value of intelligence collection by CIA case officers recruiting and running clandestine agents. For, though small in percentage of the whole nine yards available to be analyzed, information from such sources can often make a crucial contribution. Consider, for example, the daring recruitment in mid-2002 of Saddam Hussein's foreign minister, Naji Sabri, who was successfully "turned" into working for the CIA and quickly established his credibility. Sabri told us there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
My former colleagues, perhaps a bit naively, were quite sure this would come as a welcome relief to President George W. Bush and his advisers. Instead, they were told that the White House had no further interest in reporting from Sabri; rather, that the issue was not really WMD, it was "regime change." (Don't feel embarrassed if you did not know this; although it is publicly available, our corporate- owned, war profiteering media has largely suppressed this key story.)
One former colleague, operations officer-par-excellence Robert Baer, now reports (in this week's Time) that, according to his sources, the Bush/Cheney administration is winding up for a strike on Iran;" that the administration's plan to put Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps on the terrorism list points in the direction of such a strike; and that the delusional "neo-conservative" thinking that still guides White House policy concludes that such an attack would lead to the fall of the clerics and the rise of a more friendly Iran.
Hold on, it gets even worse: Baer's sources tell him that administration officials are thinking "as long as we have bombers and missiles in the air, we will hit Iran's nuclear facilities."
Rove and Snow: Going Wobbly?
Our VIPS colleague Phil Geraldi, writing in The American Conservative , earlier noted that in the past Karl Rove has served as a counterweight to Vice President Dick Cheney, and may have tried to put the brakes on Cheney's death wish to expand the Middle East quagmire to Iran. And former Pentagon officer, retired Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, who worked shoulder-to-shoulder with some of the most devoted neo-cons just before the attack on Iraq, has put into words (on LewRockwell.com) speculation several of us have been indulging in with respect to Rove's departure.
In short, it seems possible that Rove, who is no one's dummy and would not want to be required to "spin" an unnecessary war on Iran, may have lost the battle with Cheney over the merits of a military strike on Iran, and only then decided-or was urged-to spend more time with his family. As for administration spokesperson Tony Snow, it seems equally possible that, before deciding he had to leave the White House to make more money, he concluded that his stomach could not withstand the challenge of conjuring up yet another Snow job to explain why Bush/Cheney needed to attack Iran. There is recent precedent for this kind of thing.
We now know that it was because former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld went wobbly on the Iraq war-as can be seen in his Nov. 6, 2006 memo to the president-that Rumsfeld was canned. (That was the day BEFORE the election.) In that memo, Rumsfeld called for a "major adjustment" in war policy. And so, Robert Gates, who had been waiting in the wings, was called to Crawford, given the test for malleability, hired, and dispatched by the president immediately to Iraq to weigh in heavily with the most senior U.S. generals (Abizaid and Casey). They had been saying, quite openly, Please, please; no more troops; a surge would simply give the Iraqis still more time and opportunity to diddle us while American troops continue to die. So much for the president always listening to his senior military commanders. And the bug of reality was infecting even Rumsfeld.
In his memo to the president, Rumsfeld suggested that U.S. generals "withdraw U.S. forces from vulnerable positions-cities, patrolling, etc.," and move troops to Kuwait to serve as a Quick Reaction Force. Bush, of course, chose to do just the opposite.
Our domesticated press has not yet been able to put two and two together on this story, so it has been left to investigative reporters like Robert Parry to do so. In his Aug. 17 essay, "Rumsfeld's Mysterious Resignation" ( http://www.consortiumnews.com/Print/2007/081707.html ), Parry closes with this:
"The touchy secret about Rumsfeld's departure seems to have been that Bush didn't want the American people to know that one of the chief Iraq War architects had turned against the idea of an open-ended military commitment - and that Bush had found himself with no choice but to oust Rumsfeld for his loss of faith in the neoconservative cause."
Granted, it is speculative that similar factors, this time with respect to war planning for Iran, were at work in the decisions on the departure of Rove and Snow. Someone ought to ask them.
Surgical Strikes First?
With the propaganda buildup we have seen so far on Iran, what seems most likely, at least initially, is an attack on Revolutionary Guard training facilities inside Iran. That can be done with cruise missiles. With some twenty targets already identified by anti-Iranian groups, there are enough assets already in place to do that job. But the "while-we're-at-it" neo-con logic referred to above may well be applied after, or even in conjunction with, that kind of limited cruise missile attack.
Cheerleading in the Domesticated Media
Yes, it is happening again.
The lead editorial in yesterday's Washington Post regurgitates the allegations that Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps is "supplying the weapons that are killing a growing number of American soldiers in Iraq;" that it is "waging war against the United States and trying to kill as many American soldiers as possible." Designating Iran a "specially designated global terrorist" organization, says the Post, "seems to be the least the United States should be doing, giving the soaring number of Iranian-sponsored bomb attacks in Iraq."
It's as though Dick Cheney and friends are again writing the Post's editorials. And not only that: arch neo-con James Woolsey told Lou Dobbs on Aug. 14 that the US may have no choice but to bomb Iran in order to halt its nuclear weapons program. As Woolsey puts it, "I'm afraid within, well, at worst, a few months; at best, a few years; they could have the bomb."
Woolsey, self-described "anchor of the Presbyterian wing of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs," has long been out in front plumbing for wars, like Iraq, that he and other neo-cons myopically see as being in Israel's, as well as America's, interest. On the evening of 9/11, Woolsey was already raising with Tom Brokaw and Peter Jennings the notion that Iraq was a leading candidate for state sponsorship of the attacks. A day later, Woolsey told journalist James Fallows that, no matter who proved responsible for 9/11, the solution had to include removing Saddam Hussein because he was so likely to be involved the next time (sic).
The latest media hype is also rubbish. And Woolsey knows it. And so do reporters for the Washington Post, who are aware of, but have been forbidden to tell, a highly interesting story about waiting for a key National Intelligence Estimate-as if for Godot.
The NIE That Didn't Bark
The latest National Intelligence Estimate regarding if and when Iran is likely to have the bomb has been ready since February. It has been sent back four times-no doubt because its conclusions do not support what Cheney and Woolsey are telling the president and, through the domesticated press, telling the rest of us as well.
The conclusion of the most recent published NIE (early 2005) was that Iran probably could not acquire a nuclear weapon until "early to mid-next decade," a formula memorized and restated by Director of National Intelligence Michael McConnell at his confirmation hearing in February. One can safely assume that McConnell had been fully briefed on the first "final draft" of the new estimate, which has now been in limbo for half a year. And I would wager that the conclusions of the new estimate resemble those of the NIE of 2005 far too closely to suit Cheney.
It is a scandal that the congressional oversight committees have not been briefed on the conclusions of the new estimate, even though it cannot pass Cheney's smell test. For it is a safe bet it would give the lie to the claims of Cheney, Woolsey, and other cheerleaders for war with Iran and provide powerful ammunition to those arguing for a more sensible approach to Iran.
But Attacking Iran Would Be Crazy
Despite the administration's war-like record, many Americans may still cling to the belief that attacking Iran won't happen because it would be crazy; that Bush is a lame-duck president who wouldn't dare undertake yet another reckless adventure when the last one went so badly.
But rationality and common sense have not exactly been the strong suit of this administration. Bush has placed himself in a neoconservative bubble that operates with its own false sense of reality. Worse still: as psychiatrist Justin Frank pointed out in the July 27 VIPS memo "Dangers of a Cornered Bush," ( http://consortiumnews.com/Print/2007/072707a.html ), updating his book, Bush on the Couch:"
"We are left with a president who cannot actually govern, because he is incapable of reasoned thought in coping with events outside his control, like those in the Middle East.
"This makes it a monumental challenge-as urgent as it is difficult-not only to get him to stop the carnage in the Middle East, but also to prevent him from undertaking a new, perhaps even more disastrous adventure-like going to war with Iran, in order to embellish the image he so proudly created for himself after 9/11 as the commander in chief of 'the first war of the 21st century.'"
Scary.
***
An earlier, shorter version of this piece appeared on Consortiumnews.com
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in Washington, DC. During his 27-years as a CIA analyst, he chaired NIEs: he is now on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

106 Comments so far
Show AllIf Democrats had followed the US Constitution and started impeachment proceedings, Cheney and Bush wouldn't start a thrid illegal war.
Democrats' hands are soaked in the blood of the innocents.
Readers of this article will find the new book by peter Dale Scott (U. of California Press) very interesting for background on the relationship between the CIA and the "Safari club" that basically turned the intelligence agencies of Pakistan and S.A. into branch offices of the CIA. There are real breakthroughs made in this just published book. The Road to 9/11:Wealth, Empire, and The Future of America
I've had a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach since the Rove/Snow departure, after reading this article, I now understand why. I wonder what the next "terrorist" target will be in this Country to "get it started" for them. Blue staters, stay on your toes...
Clearly the Administration is out of control and needs to be stopped. It may be true that Cheney once again threw a temper tantrum and is getting his way with his Iranian "nuke em" policy. And it may, in fact, be that Rove lost out and has jumped ship.
It's now up the those in the military who, if they have any sense of integrity will "Just Say No!" to this insanity. We, the people, have lost control of our congress and our government which no longer cares what we think. Our fate may be left in the hands of mutinous military leaders!
Read Arthur Silber and Chris Floyd on the coming war with Iran. If you're not convinced after reading them, as well as this article, I want to know the reason why.
I also read the Cornered Bush article.
It's maddening there is nothing we can do to stop it.
There are supposed to be some nuclear "drills" going on in Portland, Oregon this week:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/08/363748.shtml
"incapable of reasoned thought"
Deciders don't need reason.
"By nature's law, man is at peace with man till some aggression is committed, which, by the same law, authorizes one to destroy another as his enemy." --Thomas Jefferson to Edmond C. Genet, 1793.
I agree, Kristina40, this article certainly sheds light on a foreboding possibility. Did Cheney have the final say (need I ask?), so Rove decided he all of a sudden was homesick? The war drums do seem louder, don't they?
More the reason for Congress to get on-board H Res 333, because any further delay may lead to expanded war. We all know the disastrous events that may follow.
I'm calling on the 110th Congress of the United States to carry through on your oath of office, and to "protect and defend" the Constitution you've sworn to uphold. It's your duty! Given the probability of further warfare, ignoring your duty is tantamount to treason.
I think I'll trade in my new 35MPG car for a Vespa motor scooter. I may break even with an 80 MPG vehicle once the oil stops flowing out of the Persian Gulf. And so it goes!
Good Luck Jefferson's Guardian, I've been emailing them for months and if I'm lucky I get some retarded form letter back thanking me for my opinions but explaining that impeachment isn't really a good idea...
Tehran is over 1,000 miles from where an aircraft carrier would be able to launch an attack. That means a round trip of over 2,000 miles. Iran has state of the art Russian made air defenses.
Iran is a client state of Russia and China with both countries having major investments in Iran. One of the so called nuclear facilities the AIPACers want to nuke is a Russian nuclear reactor and an attack on it would no doubt kill lots of Russian workers.
I have little doubt that the lesson the PNACers learned in Iraq is that to successfully steal the resources of a foreign country you need to neutralize the natives.
Iran has an arsenal of anti-ship missiles that can blockade the Strait of Hormuz, the only military tactic to neutralize this threat would be to carpet nuke an area along Iran's rugged gulf shoreline the size of the state of Iowa.
Finally the Bush clan has too many ties with the Saudi Royal family to allow Iran to become the dominate power in the Islamic world.
For all of these reasons I believe that an American attack on Iran would be with nuclear tipped ballistic missiles and would be designed to take out as many Iranians as possible. In addition to attacking Iran Bush will also order attacks on Russia and China's nuclear missiles.
(Google "Nuclear Primacy" to read an article from the Council on Foreign Relations that will scare you senseless.)
With the outbreak of World War Three Bush will declare a state of emergency and implement full scaled Fascism in the United States...and probably a few American cities will be taken out by Russian missiles.
Jefferson's Guardian, I admire your optimism but I think Congress is lost to some other realm of reality. I'm starting to wonder if the water supply at Capitol Hill is being laced with massive doses of prozac.
Where is the OUTRAGE?
My read too, Rove left before the door closed. During the war with Iran you will either "be with us or against us". Their silent truth, oil creates terror so the oil must be liberated. Also, the US oil empire will implode without oil. Further, Israel can not wait for that future. And lets no forget the fun factor of killing people. This will be a wet dream for social psychopaths and war criminals.
Woolsey is an interesting character. I refer the CD readers to an earlier CD article (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0815-06.htm), "Consultants Profit From Their Pentagon Ties". Suzanne Woolsey, James' wife, apparently helped secure Fluor Corp. over a billion big ones to "rebuild" Iraq. Maybe the Woolsey's want to "rebuild" Iran as well?
This administration is rapidly approaching the point where it's ideals will be indistinguishable from the terrorists'.
It's policy is to throw accusations to the wind and rush in to blindly attack people for a cause.
It is considering the use of nuclear weapons.
It fails to rule out the use of chemical weapons.
It is spying on people illegally, depriving people of their rights based on religious point of views, and locking it's own citizens in concentration camps.
AMERICA is doing this not some third world craphole.
Soon the only difference between us and the so-called terrorists will be our religions.
The Circle Jerks sang a song called "Killing for Jesus". It's frightening to imagine that thats what some people want to do.
I fear that the Bush-Cheney gang intend to launch a "small" strike on Iran to invite Iran to fight back. When it does, they will have their justification for launching the big strike that they have on play books, and Congress will be hog-tied to do anything about it for fear of appearing "soft" on "Islamic Terrorism" just as they collapsed on the re-authorization of the unconstitutional Surveillance Act.
The only way to hog-tie Bush is to impeach him and Cheney and Gonzales. The mere bringing of these impeachment cases might stop Bush from carrying out Cheney's war on Iran.
A war or military strike against Iran has been predicted before by both the left and the right. During last summer, McGovern, Ritter, Hagee (Fundamentalist Preacher) and I think even John Pilger predicted such an attack and none came. Pilger indicated that this past April, a strike might be coming but none came.
Who has been right thus far? Chomsky stated that despite the saber rattling, he does not think we will attack.
He thinks that there is just too much across the board opposition to the idea of attacking Iran.
So we will see who is right. So far, Chomsky has been. And seeing that attacking Iran would not only be disastrous, it would also be highly immoral, I hope that continues.
Maybe a hurricane will wipe out Crawford and Washington in one fell swoop...Hey, a person can dream can't they?
I've got a question more than a comment. Ray McGovern lays out the warnings of an impending attack on the people of Iran and describes his view of the future as scary. As comprehensive as his analysis is, and whether you agree with it or not, doesn't the vast majority of US citizens either explicitly or implicitly know most of this?
Let me put it another way. In democracies around the world, we find multi-party systems. When the existing parties don't meet the expectations of the voters, they risk replacement by new or alternative parties. How long has it been since there has been a party represented in congress other than the Republicans or the Democrats? What is it that prevents new parties from appearing? Are these two parties very successful at satisfying voters? Is there an impediment to new parties taking their place?
For those interested in a psychological analysis of warmongering, I have recently completed a 10-minute online video entitled "Resisting the Drums of War." It examines how the Bush administration has promoted the misguided and destructive war in Iraq by targeting five core concerns that often govern our lives--concerns about vulnerability, injustice, distrust, superiority, and helplessness. Looking ahead, the continuing occupation of Iraq--or an attack on Iran--will likely be sold to us in much the same way. The video examines these warmongering appeals and how to counter them. It's available for viewing HERE.
Spengler at Asia Times Online has been predicting a US attack against Iran for months, and he specifically predicts that it will come too late to accomplish whatever Bush hopes it might accomplish.
You can read his deep analysis here, here, and here,
Interesting given the general military developments that NORAD command is being relocated to Peterson AFB from Cheyenne Mountain, CO.
I bet I know who's moving in instead. Underground nuclear bunker. Enough supplies to sustain a few select individuals for years. Access to command and control networks, not to mention ICBM launch triggers.
Just try digging your dictatorship out of that hole.
I know, Katrina40, I agree. I've received the same lame responses from my congressman. More frustratingly, when I specifically have detailed the reasons impeachment SHOULD be on the table, like any good politician, he tap-danced around my case with responses that didn't even address my points. But, I just received a phone call and was invited to attend a town-hall meeting with him tomorrow. This should be interesting.
Plus, go easy on blowing away D.C. with hurricane winds. I live about 35 miles away (suburbs). Granted, we've needed the rain, but I don't want to live on the roof of my house.
Hey, by-the-way, your remark was only coincidental, right Katrina?
It's really really not fair. I want to live my life and not be killed. But the leaders of this country seem to WANT to kill me, and are trying as hard as they can to kill everyone else. Why? Why don't they just invest in buying an island where they can put up a "no brains allowed" sign to keep everybody else out of their perfect little conservative world?
I heartily agree with Ray's assessment. It's just a matter of time until we take on Iran - 1st by ytring to bomb them back to stone age a la North VietNam and 2nd on the ground when Iran looses her whole army on US interests in Iraq supported by a general uprising of ALL Iraqis to rid their country of the occupiers (us)
I am appalled by all the energy wasted here by the hand-wringers. This amount of effort should be re-directed to street action - non-violent strikes, demonstrations, sitins. Get off your duffs and show your courage.
We are all to blame for all the blood shed by our illegal actions. Supporting our single party system financed by the arms merchants won't change things. Let's vote with our feet and voices instead
They're sociopathic/psychotic/sadistic. It's so much that they want wealth for themselves, it's the relative nature of it all. Wealth for the few A is measured against the poverty/suffering of the many B. So unless they can make alot of people suffer, they won't be contented?
It's Kristina not Katrina but I get that alot lol
Everybody keeps saying "do something about it." Ok, join me on Saturday, September 15 in Washington, DC when I and about 1,000,000 other people march on Congress demanding an end to the war and that they finally uphold the Constitution.
www.sept15.org
Maybe we now know why impeachment is off the table. Threat of impeachment may be enough to make Bush/Cheney jump. Then Russia and China will come to the aid of their friend.
And the one thing that could put a stop to this nonsense, impeachment, Nancy Pelosi took off the table before she even took office as speaker.
Lobo Gris
Kristina, so sorry for the mistake. Please accept my apologies. People are continually misspelling and mispronouncing my name (last) all the time too, so I should have been more aware.
Keep the storms away, anyway. :-)
#
"daven0307 August 22nd, 2007 3:26 pm
Maybe we now know why impeachment is off the table. Threat of impeachment may be enough to make Bush/Cheney jump. Then Russia and China will come to the aid of their friend."
Fear of Bush going "off the reservation" because of impeachment is no excuse for not impeaching him. He is already "off the reservation".
Lobo Gris
A very good article written by one who should know the score.
You can make book on this comment. If we attack Iran in any sigificant manner, and especially if we use a single nuclear bomb, we will suffer a depression in the United States within a month or less. Within two weeks of that, this nation will collapse, it will be anarchy, with every person, or family, or small community for themselves. It may be hard to swallow, but that is the reality of it and China will insure it happens when they cash in their IOUs. Bush is crazy enough to do it too.__ Scary indeed.
Iran is quite likely supplying weapons and expertise...so what! Following that logic then Russia should have attacked the U.S. for supplying shoulder fired anti-aircraft missles,as well as other armaments to the "Muj".
Cheers,
I wonder how many are aware, that most of the CIAs intelligence analysts, are now employees of outsourced companies, hired by our government?
When that happens, the company asks the people who hired them, "What do you want to hear"? Just like local governments do when they have a high priced "study", one the city councils or state legislatures can use to feed the public and the press.
Checkout this excellent short by Robert Greenwald:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-eyuFBrWHs
to ARA Charleston, What this country needs is mass demonstrations throughout this nation and internationally, including the blocking of roads and the shutting down of strategic facilities. We need to frighten our leaders into realizing the American public can't take it any more. If nuclear war is on the table there is too much at stake to be peacefully polite about this. We have lunatics who won't listen leading this nation who won't listen to reason and they must be stopped.
Where the hell are the Democrats?
Mr. McGovern,
From your advantage can you know if there are any patriots in the Secret Service? Is there anyone with the capacity to drag these criminals in the Whitehouse by the scruff of the neck, into the street for a thorough horsewhipping? It seems impossible that two people can involve all the rest of us in such an ill-conceived operation.
excellent piece! well written, in spite of the many parenthetical phrases. as mr. mcgovern says, it is now a military-industrial-media complex. what good is whistle blowing if the media turns a deaf ear? a gigantic email campaign seems like a possible path to instill the fear of losing an election in the hearts of representatives and force them to clamor for the impeachment of these certifiable yet self serving lunatics.
"This administration is rapidly approaching the point where it's ideals will be indistinguishable from the terrorists'."
It's ideals have never been distinguishable from those of the 'terrorists'.
"Where the hell are the Democrats?"
The Democratic leadership supports an attack on Iran.
canquest--
Couldn't agree more. As to your question of "where the hell are the Democrats," the answer is quite obvious. The Democrats are a false opposition party and are really just a branch of the Republican Party. The media claimed we gave Congress a mandate to end the war in 2006 when we voted in a Democratic majority. Assuming Il Duce Bush allows us to have elections in 2008, let's give a REAL mandate and throw out all Democrats and Republicans with Greens, Socialists, Communists, and any other "third" party.
Voting for Republicrat is throwing your vote away. Vote for an alternative party.
Obviously America's military and weapons' superiority has gone to these psychos' heads that are in charge of the U.S. government. No one can figure out how to rein them in; that doesn't say much for the country, does it.
I can't beleive that all these puling people are still talking about impeachment as a solution. Read the constitution, evidence is all around you, TREASON is the only charge worth persuing and hanging is the punishment that this administration has already chosen.
rwiebe,
Clinton lied about his private life under oath. Not a treasonous act, yet he was impeached.
CIA or Bushco--Pick your poison--both will kill your freedoms and liberty dead, dead, dead!
In other words Ray McGovern and VIPS are part of the problem not part of the solution.
#
"rwiebe August 22nd, 2007 5:04 pm
I can't beleive that all these puling people are still talking about impeachment as a solution. Read the constitution, evidence is all around you, TREASON is the only charge worth persuing and hanging is the punishment that this administration has already chosen."
I have read the Constitution thank you. Have you? It does not say anywhere in the Constitution that a President should only be impeached for treason.
Article II Section 4. states
The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
Lobo Gris
I had to re-read rwiebe's post but I think what he was saying is they don't need to be impeached, they just need to be hanged...Or maybe that's what I'd like it to say. I suppose rwiebe can clear it up...
millions of people in the streets didn't stop the war. millions of naked people occupying the halls of congress will hold the attention of the Vichy Democrats.
if i understand rwiebe correctly, the message is that americans should go beyond mere impeachment; try these sociopaths for treason and hang them, is the suggested course of action. i sympathize with these feelings, but one step at a time.
JG, no offense taken, sorry's not necessary. I don't want to see any of those storms myself, I live on the Gulf Coast and here in Panama City we've been VERY lucky, it's only a matter of time before we get a direct hit...