There is way too much heat without light in some of this discussion. The issue is NOT to assign equivalence in evil between Israel and other regimes past and present, or to compare death tallies between the Israel-Palestinian conflict and other conflicts. I don't believe that people who make such inflammatory comparisons serve anyone's cause very well. Having said that, it is hard to avoid the use of the term 'apartheid' to describe the situation faced by actual human beings in the West Bank and in Gaza.

I have just returned from a visit to Israel and Palestine and observed the effects of the occupation and the Wall, and the analogy to apartheid fits pretty well. In regard to this particular article, you can see a video of one encounter that happened here:

http://www.actv.co.il/portal/eportal.asp?movind=609&show=1

(After viewing this, look at other films under the '40 Years of Occupation' link.)

For an American Jew and disciple of non-violence, in my eyes none of this excuses suicide bombings and the pain that they wreak. However, when considering the stories and hardships faced by Palestinians on a daily basis, one can perhaps understand the frustration that might result in such extreme behavior. Palestinian anger is not just about past injustices any more, but about the continuation of the occupation.

The actions of the settlers in a case like the one described in this article, the effects of the settlers' and army's behavior on real people--not terrorists--in the West Bank, the positioning of the Wall (NOT on the Green Line), the capriciousness of the check points, etc., are also acts of apartheid, designed to keep people living off-balance and in uncertainty, and seemingly to ultimately drive them from their homes again.

The exactness of comparison to other historical traumas is irrelevant for Americans and Jews who care about justice for people everywhere. Israeli policy is currently designed to perpetuate injustice in Palestine and we should struggle to make sure American foreign policy does not give Israel a blank check in conducting its policies in Palestine.

Alban,
Superb!

-------

As far as I can see it's the Zionists (whether Jewish or Christian) who are the biggest threat to Jews everywhere, it is them and their fanaticism which endangers the lives millions of ordinary, decent people, including millions of Jews now living in Israel.

Having said that, I also want to make it clear that Israel is a de facto Apartheid State.
But routinely boasts about being a democracy (the only one in the M.E. you know), while it's also a religious state, and with right-of-"return" for Jews only? Confused much? I am...

Could Israel's Apartheid policies and genocidal practices be evidenced by the
countless ways in which Israel treats Palestinians, and has been doing so for decades? This article about Israelis dumping raw sewage onto Palestinians and their land is just more in a mountain of appalling evidence. Impressive human rights, eh?

Could Apartheid be evidenced by that massive, concrete APARTHEID WALL with which Israelis
surround and impound Palestinians? Calling it a fence, btw,is a blatant hideous lie!

Could Apartheid be evidenced by looking at maps of pre-1948 Palestine along with
maps of the official, internationally sanctioned partitioning of Palestine into Israeli
State and Palestinian State, and then comparing those with current maps of what's
left of (the increasingly diminishing areas of) the West Bank and Gaza?

Which does lead one to wonder... who exactly is wiping who off the map?

So, could it be that Israelis are Goliath in this struggle, and Palestinians are David? The facts sure seem to suggest this.

Some other poster made a great suggestion. Re-read that article above. But switch
the names around. Israeli instead of Palestinian, and vice-versa. I guarantee that if
that was what happened, this would be making the rounds as more evidence of
anti(Jewish)-semitism, and it likely would be called a terrorist attack. Terrorism, btw,
is precisely what it is. Environmental terrorism.

Until we stop allowing religions and governments, and the like to divide us, and until we begin to regard each and every single human being as equals, deserving of
the same human rights, respect, dignity, and treatment...as that which we ourselves
cherish...until that time, we are doomed. It may already be too late. I hope I'm
wrong.

Peace...if we can make it!

Finally, a great deal of sense has emerged. Good lesson Alban.

From Baltocaveman:
Do the Palestinians people need help? You bet they do. But they are not getting it. And it is not the fault of Israel or even of the US. Their leaders are keeping them where they have been for over a hundred years, as the dregs and pawns of Muslim society, good for killing and being killed but not good enough to become a citizen of Jordan, Syria, Iran, Lebanon or Saudi Arabia.

Many mistakes have been and are being made in this region, as it has been for centuries. Yet no one is looking to make it all better. Should the Israelis have built a wall to divide the land? Not if they didn't need to. Would George Bush be building a wall to protect the US from Mexicans?

If you need to accept the geopolictal reality as it is today, you will need to realign your view to fit into it. If you want your people to benefit, then teach them to read, give them decent food, hospitals, allow them to engage in commerce with whomever they choose, teach them to live with their neighbors, not how to kill them.

I'm sorry, that a man's livelihood was taken away is a shame, he is another innocent victim of this. When inncoent victims, be they cafe patrons in Tel Aviv, or farmers on the West Bank stop getting hurt, when the stated aim of one of the parties to peace is not to kill and destroy the other party, then we talk.

I for one am not talking to a guy with a gun who hates me, I ain't going near him, because he has no qulams about killing me. Do you expect nation-states to commit suicide?

Let's MoveOn and use all this energy to make our world, our country, our homes and families better. So, go ahead a zap me, but I am outta this, cause it is words and music signifying nothing. Accept the reality, and work with it, don't get the hopes of poor innocent people up, while depriving them of basic needs, by lying to them.

Now can anybody in his or her right mind read that think about it and tell me that we are not dealing in serious debate with these spokes people of Zionism?

Aladdin wrote:

Israel is in a political struggle with the Palestinians, they are not exterminating them.

While Israel is at fault on many levels, it has no extermination camps, it performs no scientific experiments on innocent children, and it doesn't make furniture out of Palestinian skins!

Got it??

Wrong. They are indeed exterminating them. Most are in refugee camps. Do you realise what that means? They have been in them for 60 years and another large population for 40 years like in Gaza for 40 years. Can you imagine the horror of Gaza today? It can be debated but over time a long protracted time the Palestinians are being exterminated as a people. That is genocide.

As for experimenting on children? How about simply human beings and the torture, killings, maiming psychological damage, physical damage physiological damage, rationing deliberately the basic requirements of survival like food water medicines and destruction of power plants agricultural land the entire economy over time. Just try one summer this one in Gaza to get an idea. When sanctions continued in the face of large scale protest at the UN the US and GB insisted on persisting and the result was 500,0000 children alone died in Iraq as a result. Now Sadaam never came close to that in all his years in power.

How do we count the number of Palestinians who have been denied the right to life by such behavior? How and are they counted. Big brother protecting that little military base in the Middle East compromises the UN. Even the Red Cross dare not cross the US and cannot release what it becomes aware of in Dentition centres all over the world. Israel comes in as a top state in this and interrogation techniques, urban warfare, testing of weapons and technology, terrorism and hire of mercenaries. It kidnaps people, imprisons and detains many thousands of people usually Arabs. It is consistent in its violations of international law the UN and protected. Enough! It is one step away from repeating Nazi behavior perpetrated against the ancestors of the Jews in Europe and is disgraced among the people of the world including many Jews. Those in power in the US and Israel are cut of the same cloth. If what is allowed to occur continues this century there will certainly be no more Palestinians to speak of as a people. What can be presently retrieved for them is already looking like a fractured ruined imprisoned statelet of cheap labour for their masters. Unless they resist and tap into the conscience of the world to reverse this daylight robbery they head for extermination the policy all along.

Notice when I use elites like in Israel and the US it applies elsewhere too. But Israeli the US elites and great buddies with their favorites The Saudi's Mubarak, The Sheiks and Emirs the Kings and what are called the forces of moderation in the area the oil rich states. They are gearing up to attack the Shiites whose only stronghold is Iran. The dirty work is underway. Divide and rule. Any perceived enemy of Israel is then a rogue state or a failed state or a member of an axis of evil and so on. Israel has unfinished business in Lebanon wants, Syria further weakened,
While the venal, bribed, courted and bought off corrupt Sunni leaders fall into line to the horror and detriment of their own people who can only live in subjection and rage in silence. Otherwise it's the chop you see?

Well there is indeed a difference between Israel insisting on "Its right to exist" and the right of self-determination for a people. That's crucial so let us all think this through.

Belthecat of course was correct in substance. And who are you I might ask like Alice in Wonderland who are you? Not you bellthecat but the poser who suggests you deny the Jewish people "The Jewish People" the right to Self Discrimination (sic). It is important for understanding to all and everybody that the State of Israel has no right whatsoever to speak for the Jewish People. A great many of the Jewish people abhor the actions of the State of Israel and a not insignificant number wish it to be totally reformed. They certainly do not ever wish to be either associated with it in its present form or to have it speak in their name. And this must be explained and understood broadcast and publicised. It is for the same selfish reasons that spokes- persons for that state perpetuate the myth that it is the representative of the Jewish people. It is not and never has been. Millions of courageous Jews are deeply concerned about such appropriation of their identity. Any while for very understandable reasons many would hold a tie to The Holy Land it has become an oxymoron to use this term to describe the state of Israel with the shit flying all around Bethlehem.

And there are no double standards applying to Israel and any other democratic States as was poorly implied to bellthecat. In fact the exact opposite is the case as usual. We would apply the same standards and Israel fails with aces and is so far removed from being a true democracy for all its citizens, its invasions its brutal expansion its war crimes on a scale much larger than the terrorist attacks against it. In actual fact without leaving out the planes, assassinations, invasions, acts of aggression, it's hardly disguised terrorism against innocents, its exporting of armaments and involvement as clients in dirty little repressions all over the globe it has always far exceeded all the terrorism attacks in the history of the world since the second world war. Israel is the arch up front terrorist State and is so because it is a client of its master who approves. It initiated wars and attempted to rewrite history. It occupies foreign lands and destabilizes as a matter of policy its neighbours. It acts like the Doberman Pincher of it's master and is ruthless, unforgiving cruel and vindictive, an arrogant and racist uncompromising bully.

That it was attacked in 1973 is true and that changed everything as the US backed it to the hilt, all administrations. Just look at what happened then? Examine the pretext for the invasions of Lebanon as it became an armaments superpower spied on its US master bought sold bribed and invested in the war economies that are leading us all to destruction soon. It has nuclear arms that have not been declared as it poses a problem for that armament industry with the US not legally allowed to export. Even the British have refused it arms on account of their use in war crimes against innocent populations. It reeks of war crimes. All and everything is lies from their well-established media hacks. They have caused far more pain and suffering in this than has occurred in Darfur and are only publicists for this situation because of payback. They are in reality a superpower now albeit a midget to their master. Jesus wept!

As dcbeltway will be well aware another favourite lie constantly portratied in the media is this business of th ePAlestinians among others preaching teaching and propogating hatred (anti-semetic) against the Israelis who only want somebody anybody to take the hand and shake for the peace she so deeply and earnestly desires. From my personal experience the exact opposite is true. And this can be backed up. Thanks fo rthe interesting educational imput dcbeltway you are a credit to research and you efforts are appreciated by many I suspect. And the fact that this being brought to high level talks is being addressed by the Israeli State as opposed to th stateless PAlestinians in a latest 2007 text book where it is being stated that the Palestinians didn't agree with the 1948 partition is remarkable in itself. Wow! Incredible in 2007 What Jazz ? It just goes to show you, what?

And really vets you ought not to confine your research to Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent but read his Fateful Triangle and in all conscience pop over to th Gaza Strip for a few weeks while you're at if you can find the time to go for a surfboard ride while the weather is fine. Take a few of your buddies with you and don't forget to give us a laugh with that UN statistic about Israel being less than 50th in violators of UN assessments of international brutality, crimes and so on....

And have any of you got hold of and read the latest comprehensive report on last summers invasion of Lebanon? It should be discussed but should we include the number of innocent civilians who have ben maimed since the cease fire and of course those no longer with us as a result of their land being still saturated with cluster bomblets. Mostly children of course. Should we examine that report and the lies it exposes about so much that was pouring out of the little state defending itself? Oh Let's please.

Oh yeah one more thing. When Hamas was on a 16 month ceasefire and just before that invasion Hizbollah stated that it was instigated as an attack on th estate that blew people away on the beach. And never in anybody's wildest dreams did Haman rain down "almost daily" rockets on Israel during it. With the very odd exception and enduring constant attacks by Israel it fired none. And how many Israelis were killed or injured during that period from these rockets? Now please answer. And How many Palestinians were killed by Israeli's in those 16 months. We should tell people the answers. And you with your 'almost daily' indeed are as responsible for this savage occupation and its consequences for innocents as can be through lies, lies, and more lies. No matter how many of you there are, your days are fading in the light of an outraged better informed people in many lands and those elite leaders will come tumbling down with you and your kind. At the very least let's try and be honest. There is no concensus in Israel and certainly Israel is a most reviled 'democracy' in more and more lands. National governments will be wakened by their own citizens about this injustice and as seems likely the same path to destruction will unfold with the US and Israel conducting aggressive war the, protection afforded that state by our elites will fracture and there will be all hell to pay for those crimes. The Jewish people themselves will rise and Americans in the US masses in european capitals will rise. Wait, continue, and see. International consensus will demand Justice in the middle-east. It is sheer insanity to expect security for Israel when she behaves like a racist bully at the behest of leaders that are bent on war, greed, control, dominance, power, and armed force in a sea of seething desperate human beings who are excluded from a say in these matters of survival by tyrannical regiemes whose days are numbered. Desist, change course, compromise and seek peace or ruin is assured for our children. Shalom! Pax Pacis! Inshallah!

Vets there is a movie called "OutFoxed" which if you google it will tell you all you need to know about Fox News.

dcbeltway - Good, I'm with you. I'm happy that such software exists. It makes it easyer to trace false entries in Wikipedia.

Too bad we don't have something similar for CNN or Fox.

Vets I trust the technology which reveals who writes and edits wikipedia more then I trust the entries themselves.

Jungleboy I second that. Catman do shutup. Adamslp needs to get a grip also.

Catman thats a little (way) too much. Get a grip. Reality, you know?

Here is another example of an anti-semite racist who happens to his home in CD.

catman - "And i'll bet 95% of the housing bubble bursting bullshit is from Jew banker manipulation…."

Peace Warrior, I don't know much about AIPAC, but I assume you are correct. AIPAC is not an unbiased organization.

dcbeltway - The fact that (with some restrictions) Wikipedia can be edited by anyone - I see that as a strength, and not as weakness.

Wikipedia has a lot of problems, especially when hearing that commercial companies, and even the CIA have manipulated entries. Yet, it still belong to the masses. (And Israelis are part of the humanity, which have the right to edit entries just as anyone else)

I still trust Wikipedia more than any media which is controlled by a single commercial company, or a single person.

I mean, let's FRAME the issue....shall we?

You cant give anybody, especially a corporate run government, a blank check for war. Watch out who you fight for, your best friend can become your worst enemy, even over simple words.

Well to some up this discussion.

Who really are the Nazi's and who are the good guys?

Anyone who reads this string of comments should be able to tell.

I guess its true that the far right and the far left really are on the same side of the circle.

Vets not my words but words reposted from Mr. Levinson's blog. I put the link there. He calls it that not I. I posted to show just how much wikipedia is rewritten by the Israeli embassy and other like minded groups. He tracks this in his blog. I also believe he is Jewish and has the courage to speak out about these things which I respect alot. I stil refer to it as the apartheid wall....don't worry you're not drunk. Besides you don't seem to be the type that gets drunk and goes online on a Wednesday night anyways.

Freedom of speech is important vets even when we disagree and even though your views are usual wrong they are still important:).

Regarding the two professors reports they do go into content of textbooks on both sides.

dcbeltway - Maybe some of these changes were done because they were not accurate?

For example, I don't see how the Hisballah's attack from Lebanon into northern Israel has anything to do with what happens to Gaza and southern Israel?
Seems to me more like an excuse.

If the USA will shell rockets launchers in Mexico, and hit by mistake a Mexican family - Will that be justification for Canada to do a cross border raid on US soil?

Qassam rockets has been fired almost daily during the so called cease fire. I remember one case, right after the disengagement, the Hamas held a parade. In it they paraded an open track full with Qassam rockets. Since they are not known for their high safety record, that track explode and killed some of the viewer. The Hamas of course blames Israel and start shooting at Shderot ( war crime)

The international court of justice in Hague has not ruled anything on that subject. It was an unbinding recommendation. Also it was biased one since it ignored the Suicide Bombers. (The sole reason of why it was built in the first place)

I'm happy though dcbeltway that you have brought that example.
dcbeltway - "...The international court of justice in hague has ruled that the West Bank security fence, which ..."
Are my eyes deceiving me?
Have I been drinking?
dcbeltway published a paragraph that actually call the barrier "FENCE"?
At least you made one small step in the direction on the truth, by calling the barrier by what it actually is - mostly "Fence", instead of "the Apartheid Wall" as you did in the past. - A well done progress.

Text book comparisons - You have compared the length of the reports, not the content.

On one point I would agree with you 100% (Even though I'm a Zionist) - The call for free information, free data and freedom of speech.

Anyway do the Zionist ever get tired of constantly churning out propoganda and lies? That's gotta be exhausting and a collosal waste of human potential and money. That's also a full time job for so many of them---there's people paid to do it at AIPAC, MEMRI, the ADL etc etc. However the propoganda is not that hard to debunk with a computer and a google search. Fascinating how more and more people are becoming more and more aware of Zionist propoganda through the internet and are able to debunk it. Zionist talking points don't hold water when under scrutiny.

Israel 's Wikipedia editors
August 22nd, 2007
http://conflictblotter.com/2007/08/22/israels-wikipedia-editors/

I've been playing with Virgil Griffith's addictive new website that allows you to track Wikipedia edits to individuals and organizations. Here are a few examples of edits made by the Israeli government I found. Have a go at it and feel free to post any nuggets you find in the comments.

In the Wikipedia entry on the "Israeli West Bank barrier" someone from an IP address that is part of the "Israeli Government Network" changes a photo caption reading:

A section of the "Israeli West Bank barrier" between Qalqiliyia and the nearby Israeli highway. This section of the barrier is on the Green-line border between Israel and the Palestinian west bank.

to read instead:

The international court of justice in hague has ruled that the West Bank security fence, which is being built by Israel , is illegal. This is an outrageous, undemocratic, illegal and racist decision. The court has decided that palestinians' minor conviniences are more important than israeli citizens lives. The world is helping the Arab conspiracy theories. Their target is the complete and total distruction of the state of Israel and the Jewish people.

In this edit by the Israeli embassy in Washington the Wikipedia entry for "Hamas" read:

However, various sources, among them United Press International [29], Le Canard enchaîné and L'Humanité[30] have highlighted that Hamas' early growth - before its official founding and the creation of the military branch - had been supported by the Mossad as a "counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)".

Someone in the embassy throws in an "unreliable" so it reads instead:

However, unreliable various sources, among them United Press International [29], Le Canard enchaîné and L'Humanité[30] have highlighted that Hamas' early growth - before its official founding and the creation of the military branch - had been supported by the Mossad as a "counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)".

And this edit of the entry for "2006 Israel-Gaza conflict" also by the embassy in DC is changed from:

Tensions had been high for some time due to Qassam rocket attacks, reported to have exceeded 800 rockets in the past seven months, and due to the deaths of numbers of Palestinian civilians in incidents such as the Gaza beach blast. After the Gaza beach blast, Hamas withdrew from its 16-month ceasefire and began openly taking responsibility for Qassam rocket launches.

to read instead:

Tensions had been high for some time due to Qassam rocket attacks, reported to have exceeded 800 rockets in the past seven months,[1] and due to the deaths of numbers of Palestinian civilians in incidents such as the Gaza beach blast. After the Gaza beach blast, Hamas formally withdrew from its 16-month ceasefire, which it regularly violated by firing rockets at Israeli civilian targets and began openly taking responsibility for Qassam attacks.

The Israeli Embassy in Washington also changes the entry for "Administrative detention" from:

Administrative detention is a military term used in Israel to refer to political prisoners.

to:

Administrative detention is a military term used in Israel to refer to security prisoners.

The embassy also alters the background on the "2006 Lebanon War" entry :

On 12 July 2006 Hezbollah initiated Operation Truthful Promise,[1] possibly in response to Israeli artillery shells which hit a beach in Gaza on June 9, 2006, killing seven people and wounding thirty[2]. The operation consisted of a cross-border raid which resulted in the capture of two soldiers and used shelling into Israel as a diversionary tactic.

to instead read:

On 12 July 2006 Hezbollah initiated Operation Truthful Promise,[1] The operation consisted of a cross-border raid which resulted in the capture of two soldiers, the killing of eight and shelling of communities in Israel .

And finally, there is this small, but telling tweak by AIPAC's Washington DC office to their own entry on Wikipedia entry. The entry reading:

The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is a special interest group that lobbies the United States Government on behalf of Israeli interests as it sees them.

is edited by someone in AIPAC to instead read:

The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is a special interest group that lobbies the United States Government on behalf of a strong U.S. - Israel relationship.

I looked for similar such edits on the Palestinian side, but couldn't find any. I guess this is just one more example of Palestinians trailing Israel in the PR game.

dcbeltway,

The latest Israeli textbook (July, 2007) states the Arab view:

"The Israeli government has approved a school textbook that for the first time presents the Palestinian denunciation of the creation of Israel in 1948."

Get back to me when the Palestinians present the Israeli view.

So who's textbooks are actually inciting hatred and violence there Jazzbone??????

Tel Aviv University
About Daniel Bar-Tal in "Supremacism and Racism in Israeli School Textbooks"

Thursday, June 21, 2007

In the article "The Arab Image in Hebrew School Textbooks" by professor Dan Bar-Tal of the Tel Aviv University makes a study of 124 textbooks used in Israeli schools and reports that "over the years, generations of Israeli Jews were taught a negative and often delegitimizing view of Arabs." The two main traits of Arabs in the textbooks are "primitiveness, inferiority in comparison to Jews" and "their violence, to characteristics like brutality, untrustworthiness, cruelty, fanaticism, treacherousness and aggressiveness." - Wikipedia

Such demonisation appears reminiscent of what one would expect to find in Nazi Germany. In fact after reading the following, one could easily conclude that Israeli textbooks present the Arabs as the 'Untermensch' of Palestine.

1) Israeli school textbooks as well as children's storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as "murderers," "rioters," "suspicious," and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

"The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as 'robbers,' 'bloodthirsty,' and 'killers,'" said Professor Bar-Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of "improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of."

SOURCE: "Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs" - Washington Report on Middle East Affairs - September 1999.

2) In "The Arab Image in Hebrew School Textbooks," an article drawing from his study of 124 textbooks, Professor Dan Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University reports that "over the years, generations of Israeli Jews were taught a negative and often delegitimizing view of Arabs."

Bar-Tal found some positive Arab images. But he reports two major themes of Arab characteristics. One taught "primitiveness, inferiority in comparison to Jews." The other related to "their violence, to characteristics like brutality, untrustworthiness, cruelty, fanaticism, treacherousness and aggressiveness."

Referring to Israeli texts of the '80s and '90s, Bar-Tal reports: "Geography books for the elementary and junior high schools stereotype Arabs negatively, as primitive, dirty, agitated, aggressive, and hostile to Jews … history books in the elementary schools hardly mention Arabs … history textbooks of the high schools, the majority of which cover the Arab-Jewish conflict, stereotype the Arabs negatively. Arabs are presented as intransigent and uncompromising."

"The parents and the grandparents of the present generation," says Bar-Tal, "were provided with the same negative image of the Arabs in their school textbooks as we see today, within the context of the prolonged Jewish-Arab conflict. One might add that it takes many years to rewrite school textbooks and a few generations to change the societal beliefs about the stereotyping and delegitimization of the Arabs."

SOURCE: "Reports on Palestinian kids' hatred grossly exaggerated" - By Len Traubman -Jewish News Weekly of Northern California - February 2004

3) In conclusion, it is possible to say that almost all the Israeli school textbooks that referred to Arabs in the context of the conflict have continuously stereotyped them negatively, and even delegitimized them following the Jewish experience of continuous violent confrontation with the Arabs over more than a hundred years. This conclusion is based on the finding that Arabs are mostly presented in the context of the conflict and, in this context, they are almost always negatively stereotyped.

The conflict provided a problem to the Jewish educators - how to present Arabs. It began with the first textbooks written at the end of the 19th century, which, if they acknowledged the existence of the Arab population in Palestine, did not recognize its national entity.

{snip}

The question that can be asked, then, is what kinds of representation of Arabs do students find in school textbooks? The great majority of the books at best stereotype Arabs negatively, but often they also delegitimize them in the context of the conflict. From these descriptions, students can learn two major themes of Arab characteristics. One concerns their primitiveness, inferiority in comparison to Jews, backwardness and ignorance. The other theme relates to their violence, to characteristics like brutality, untrustworthiness, cruelty, fanaticism, treacherousness and aggressiveness.

The books provide graphic descriptions of Arab pogroms, murders and riots, the result of agitation and incitement of the Arab masses by their leaders. Arabs are usually presented as a threat to Jewish existence and this stereotype is assumed to arouse feelings of insecurity, fear and hatred. Positive stereotyping is rare. Some of the books refer to positive characteristics, which appear mostly in a particular ethnocentric framework, whenever Arabs help Jews or recognize their superiority. Even so, some books describe Arabs' hospitality and friendliness.

The books almost never present Arabs of middle class, professionals, or intellectuals. This is especially puzzling in view of the fact that the Arab professionals, citizens of the State of Israel, occupy a noticeable place in Israeli society, for example in hospitals as doctors or auxiliary personnel, or in schools in the role of teachers. Also, in the occupied territories, there is a considerable segment of intelligentsia, which does not appear in the books. Finally, the books relatively ignore the fact that, since 1979, Israel has had a peace treaty with Egypt. This dramatic event could have led to a better acquaintance with Egyptian society and culture.

The negative stereotyping, which is still evident, and the delegitimization, which was common in earlier periods, are transmitted to the students from the first early years of their formal education in the elementary school up to their last classes of high school, when they are in advanced adolescence.

SOURCE: "The Arab Image in Hebrew School Textbooks" - Professor Daniel Bar-Tel; professor of political psychology at Tel Aviv University - Palestine/Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture.

Study of Palestinian Textbooks
November 1, 2001

by Prof. Nathan Brown, George Washington University

For Complete Study, see:

Democracy, History, and the Contest over the Palestinian Curriculum
A study by Prof. Nathan Brown, Georgetown University

In 1999 and 2000, I conducted research on the establishment of the new Palestinian curriculum by collecting documents, textbooks, and interviewing Palestinian educators. Since that time, I have continued the research by surveying new textbooks and following discussions of educational issues by Palestinian educators. This research was supported by a Fulbright grant through the United States-Israel Educational Foundation (USIEF) and another grant from the United States Institute of Peace (USIP). The conclusions of the research are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views either of USIEF or USIP.

My research—and the attached paper—focus primarily on the role of democracy in the new curriculum. Nevertheless, I could not ignore the international controversy surrounding Palestinian textbooks and the many claims that they incite violence and racial hatred. I was therefore surprised to find books that were far less incendiary than portrayed; most were perfectly innocuous.

Most accusations against the books are based on reports from the "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace" (CMIP). Although that organization presents reports that are tendentious and misleading, few independent reviews have been conducted. Therefore CMIP reports--which seek to obscure rather than highlight the very significant changes that have been made--are not frequently challenged. I hope that my own review of Palestinian textbooks can assist those interested in a more impartial assessment.

General Background

Upon assuming responsibility over Palestinian education in 1994, the Palestinian Authority (PA) restored the Jordanian and Egyptian curriculum in their entirety as an interim measure. This included the use of books that contained sharply anti-Israeli and even anti-Semitic material. It is based on these books that the strongest charges have been levied. Criticisms of that decision are fair, but must be viewed in conjunction with the following facts:

* The PA determined from the beginning to replace these books and formed a curriculum development center to draft a new set of books. This decision came not as a response to international pressure but instead was a Palestinian initiative (though some international funding was available). The plan developed by that center has proceeded according to schedule.

* The PA issued a series of National Education books for grades 1-6 to supplement the Egyptian and Jordanian books while the new books were being written. Those books were devoid of any anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli material.

* Oddly, Israel allowed the offensive Jordanian books to be used in the East Jerusalem schools but barred the innocuous PA-authored books, probably fearful that use of the PA books would be an implicit recognition of sovereignty.

* The new curriculum is now going into effect. The first and sixth grade textbooks were introduced in 2000. The second and seventh grade books were introduced in 2001. Books for the remaining grades will be introduced two at a time until the entire school system has switched over.

In short, the PA should be credited with removing racist and anti-Semitic material from the curriculum, not for maintaining it. And international assistance has supported replacement of the offensive material, not its composition.

More specific comments on the new (2000 and 2001) books:

* History

The Palestinian books strive to create a strong sense of Palestinian, Arab, and Muslim identity in students. This dominates their treatment of history. Thus, they concentrate on trying to demonstrate a continuing Arab presence in Palestine. Though they do not deny a Jewish presence, they do not dwell on it. In Islamic education, the books have to confront Muslim-Jewish conflicts (in the early days of Islam) and Muslim-Christian conflicts (during the Crusades). The books clearly are partial to Muslims in both instances. But they also clearly support peaceful relations (for instance, by lauding Saladin for insisting that people of all faiths should have access to Jerusalem). The books do not treat Jewish history in any comprehensive manner, positively or negatively.

* Present

Perhaps the most difficult issue is how to present Palestine in the present, since almost all matters (statehood, borders, Israeli settlements) remain unresolved. The books deliver no consistent message. Sometimes they seek to avoid the subject (for instance, a group of schoolchildren takes a trip from Gaza to Jerusalem; the books make no mention of the fact that checkpoints and closure make such a school trip impossible). Sometimes they convey the Palestinian national consensus (that Jerusalem must be their capital, that Israeli settlements harm Palestinians) while bypassing other issues. In general, they are base their presentation on an implicit distinction between "geographic and historic" Palestine and "political" Palestine. Thus they sometimes discuss (generally briefly) some areas within Israel's 1967 borders. But each book also contains a foreword describing the West Bank and Gaza as "the two parts of the homeland." In short, political realities are confusing and difficult for educators to describe to children. It would be unfair to describe such confused treatment as "delegitimization of Israel."

* Violence

Similarly, the books do not encourage violence. They do urge students to be willing to make self-sacrifice for the religion or nation (as most schoolbooks do), but they do not urge violence in that regard. One book does contain a poem praising the children who threw stones in the first intifada, but at the same time praises Gandhi at some length for non-violence.

Conclusion

The efforts to discredit Palestinian textbooks have already caused some damage. Many leading Palestinian educators have argued that the new curriculum should be designed not only to promote national identity but also the skills of democratic citizenship. Stung by international criticism, education officials tend to be less open to such contributions than they were in the past. The hyperbole of the charges against the books has led textbook writers to become less responsive, not more. The cause of educational reform has thus been obstructed by the harsh and unfair international criticism.

Schoolbooks are products of the broader political situation. An example is the role of Hebrew in the new curriculum. The original plan (produced in 1996) involved the introduction of Hebrew-language instruction as an elective in secondary school. But the deterioration of the broader political context has taken a toll. In 2000, a first-grade book had a picture of a coin from the era of the British mandate with Palestine written in both Hebrew and Arabic. In 2001, after a year of the second intifada, a picture of a Mandate-era postage stamp erased the Hebrew.

The Palestinian curriculum is not a "war" curriculum. Neither is it a "peace" curriculum. While some improvements in the existing books might be made, a real peace curriculum will follow, not precede, a comprehensive peace.

thomas j. hussey,

You said "The Arab states have initiated only one war against Israel, the Ramadan war of 1973".

What happened to the 1948 "War of Independence" and the 1956 "Suez Campaign"?

The 1967 "Israeli aggression" (as you call it) resulted from Egypt closing the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, an international Act of War.

The Jew,s are the Hitler of the middle East. They know it America funds them and if you question thier behaver they play the holocaust card.

to jazzbone:
The Arab states have initiated only one war against Israel, the Ramadan war of 1973, and that only because Egypt and Syria were seeking to recover the land they had lost to Israeli aggression in 1967.

bellthecat seems to know nothing about history and manages to actually REVERSE the facts.

He says "Since it's "creation" in 1948 it has caused nothing but chaos & brutality in the region."

However, five Arab states attacked Israel, not the other way around. They instigated two more wars during the next 20 years, not the other way around. Fatah began terrorist operations three years before the first settlement was built, not the other way around.

He then says "The racism & hatred of Israeli Jews is enough to make a KKK grand dragon blush."

Yeah, sure, although he sounds like someone who ought to know.

Have you paid attention to large number of Israeli demonstrations by peace marchers? Protesters? Anti-Orthodoxy secularists?

Oh, BTW, how many Palestinians have demonstrated against terrorism?

Have you read the Arab and Palestinian books used to "educate" their children?
To quote one source, "Textbooks, from elementary through high school, are replete with strong expressions of hatred towards Israel, negation of its right to exist and praise for the struggle against it, as well as antisemitic expressions against the Jews." NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

The shit flowing through the contemplated sewage channel is a perfect metaphor for how Israel has treated the Palestinians through forty years of occupation and for what Israel and its supporters have become.

Jim Glover - I wish you were the one leading the Hamas.

bellthecat - You:
- Deny the Jewish people the right for self Descrimination.
- Claims the Israel's creation is a Racist Endover.
- Apply Double standard by Judging the Israel by different standard than any other Democratic state.
- Call for the destruction of Israel (The Zionist enterprize) (I wonder how exactly you plan to do that)

The Europen Monitoring Centur on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) have a word to describe the likes of you.

To learn more read:
http://eumc.europa.eu/eumc/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

I would not be surprise to find out if your are a KKK / Aryan nation member. You certenly hold the same world views.

Hi Vets,
You asked what do I think Hamas would like to talk about.

Since we haven't talked to them, they would have lots to say and I would listen and ask what they would want from us and Israel so that we could quit killing each other and improve the lives of everyone who is suffering from death and destruction and old hatreds.

That would be a start and I would be happy just to begin the dialogue and then the world would have a better idea of how to solve conflicts.

We could always go back to war but maybe we have reached a point where this war business can be put out of business.
Thanks for asking,

Jim

The time has come for the UN to revoke Israel's charter.
Since it's "creation" in 1948 it has caused nothing but chaos & brutality in the region.

The zionists didn't come to be a part of the region, they came to dominate & usurp as much land as possible.

The zionist crimes are countless, starting with the propaganda that Jews are victims and Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians are rabid, unthinking, bloodthirsty terrorists.

I've come to this conclusion (about revoking their charter & disbanding their state) after reading numberous comments written by readers of Ha'aritz articles.

The racism & hatred of Israeli Jews is enough to make a KKK grand dragon blush.

This shitting on their neighbors reminds me of another article I read recently where a settlement diverted a Palestinian community's water supply to fill their (the settlers) swimming pool & the water they sent back to the community was ~ you guessed it sewage ~ delivered straight to a Palestinian grade school.

These don't seem like isolated incidents, they seem like Israeli policy.

The criminal zionist enterprise must be ended.

And very good point about Haiti and Canada with French fries and freedom fries too. What has happened to Canada in recent years? Your country used to be so respected and now its on the road to joining the ranks of the reviled, unlike New Zeeland. The pair of you were so admired for principled stances and independence. One left.

Good on you dc. And Vets give us your UN source for israel coming into tjhis top 50 so we can all have a good laugh. And we can check on more up to date reputable sources too. And I can find dictionary definitions of Zionism as racist in essence. The UN said so and of course the incensed big broyher the US had that overturned with threats of removal of funding and also insisted that israel was made a member against mounting opposition using similar tactics. And how greatful the UN was to have such a respected member support its efforts. And yes about Israels concern for the poor people in Darfur ever since the recent year long publicity in a country with a very interesting recent history of suffering. Oil has nothing to do with it or the fact that the Chinese were scouring around seeking access to raw materials in competition. And it deflects the Israeli Zionist project at a time when people are beginning to awaken to its poisonous tentacles reaching the Sudan and the not to be forgotton Somalia. It is only cooperating with big brother as usual doing services it has become expert at and outdoing the Nazis in its invidious and and persistence in persecution and terrorism. There is no other fairminded way to describe whart is being perpetrtated against the Palestinians native to that land than a slow genocide and international law may well see it as such. It is not a matter of the number of people killed but rather the method slow over time leading to the inevitable unless arrested in time of the extermination of a people as a people lost in space and dispersed. It is a valid proposition and is being done with the eyes of the world unable to avert its eyes to appease such unbelievably inhuman behaviour. The State must desist or face an upsurge of anger against its occupants and their bankers.

I'm aware of people like Rick rsterling who make their stand and protest in a reasonable manner open to suggestions from the point of view of compromise and justice. Let's be sure Rick. There is no compromise with a facist racist entity. it must be brought down within through its own citizens or forced to desist from without through being sanctioned and boycotted till it resumes to lawful behaviour and compliance with international law. It is demonstrating over a long history every trait of the Nazism that was ever devised up to the Holocaust itself. In the same way as the USA couldn't politically just nuke a few cities in Iraq iran Afghanistan Pakistan or wherever to gain control Israel just couldn't blow away or deport all the Palestinians from the occupied territories. It has long assumed a supercilious, oneupmanship, racially based and arrogant control through military might terrorism (claiming itself to be the sole victim of this)fear and degredation while strangling the economy and rendering millions of Palestinians dependent refugees isolated, thirsty and hungry. It does all this while caliming to be terrorised as the post said with a relentless barrage of Katushas raining down upon it for over 40 years. What a load of cock and bull. Indeed rockets hit her, terrorist attacks and suicide bombers have attacked her and innocent israelis men, women and children have died and been seriously wounded. This is appaling enough. But her behaviour has been atrocious. The bare numbers don't approach the terrible rreality of deportation and refugees in their miselable camps for well nigh 60 years. Give us the death figures Mr Vets sir of Palestinians through the first Intifada and before? Before the suicide bombers struck as a policy. On occupied land the Israelis terrorised a Palestinian population who became like Iraq's resistance terrorists and all its laws arrests killings and so on became the fight against terrorism. It is all a lie. Israel itself is Terrorism personified and allowed to be so because America is either facist itself or has fallen asleep. Never can the sad truth of the American Indians demise be more graphically re-enacted that by its support for Israel. It must cut off now, almost too late, or be forever condemned by history and people everywhere of conscience. Cannot say we didn't know. No more. America and Jews worldwide awake!

Jim Glover - I have no issue to speak with the Hamas. Nor do I ahree with every policy of the Israeli or the USA governments.

Just one question - What do you think they will want to talk about?

I'm depressed, I thought Common Dreams was a site where we could learn from one another, thought we were all on the same team. Silly me!

Jungleboy, bet you'd be a fun person to sit and have a couple of beers with. You're smart too.

Oh Sorry,
the Dictionary link is http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Arab-Israeli%20conflict

Lessons learned from the tolerance of Islamic Spain:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0822/p09s02-coop.html

Since Vets has helped us out with the dictionary on anti-Semitism, here is another that we should all see the definition of and then maybe talk about how to settle this conflict..the definition of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
http://www.gnmagazine.org/middleeast/

I think Israel should talk to Hamas about a peaceful settlement and quit using this fear of "Oh they want to destroy Israel" as a cop out.

The fact that both Israel and the US refuse to settle disputes with people that are mad as hell about this conflict that has been goin on for thousands of years is cowardly.

The friends who called me a dirty Jew when I was a kid in Cleveland were not Arabs and all those fights were only lessons for me that fighting over name calling or war talk threats is sick and childish but it is good business for the folks who run the war economy and even supported Hitler...like Prescott Bush and the Skull and Bones Gang.

I would like Isreal to begin to lead the way to peace and talk with Hamas and we can make a deal with Iran.

Just like the Sunnis in Iraq who changed as soon as the US showed them that they were tired of fighting them, things change.
If Osama is alive he will want to be tried in a world Court...along with Bush.

Until we learn to get the world to outlaw war Profiteering this race to the bottom will pick up speed.
Love, Jim

PS definitions are sometimes a way of New Speak.
the fact that the understood definition of Anti-Semite has ment only anti-Jew, is another reason for the Arabs to hate Jews because it assumes that arabs don't count as Semites.

Jungleboy exactly and good angle with the environment as this builds a bigger coalition. The environmental movement needs to start shouting about this one. Someone call them up we need the big environmental groups to defend the Palestinians right to a clean and healthy environment and the damn occupation is dirty literally!

Remember children, when it comes down to name calling it proves you are not very bright and you don't know how to get along with others. Bias works on closing oneself off from the reality others see. What we all see differently, and react to differently, is the same truth.

Israel has the technology to dump clean sewage. I don't care whose land it is. Its an environmental disaster! If I shat on my neighbors yard, I would have to smell it. If I wanted to buy it in the future, I would be buying my own foul shit contaminated land. Meanwhile, I have a pissed off neighbor. That is so multi-national corporate policy like I could just punch you all who are arguing over semitism in the face for not noticing the obvious truth, and that wouldn't get anyone anywhere! Would it?

You invent new dictionary meaning to words, and when I say you are wrong, and bring reference from dictionary - I'm turned into a moron.

As for calling me a Nazi, I don't know how to reply. It's beyond absurd. Maybe you don't know what Nazi is. There is a dictionary definition for that as well.

Vets
I was in error. You appear to be both a nazi and a moron.

Verb 1. appose - place side by side or in close proximity

" vets August 22nd, 2007 12:16 pm

Peter - No, I'm not Neo-Con. I appose war. "

What do you mean?

This is a good example of why Israel gets a pass on legitimate issues. The "anti semitic" branding iron comes out fast every time. So should we give Israel a pass on this one?

Absolutely not. If Israel is going to find a way to live in peace with their neighbors, they are going to have to do better than bulldoze through villages. Hopefully the Israeli Supreme Court may bring some reconciliation with Israel's moderate, non terrorist Muslim neighbors.

Please put me in a catagory...please, I have no group to go by. I'm all alone... Calling all dumb for fighting a war instead of ending it. It takes two.

I have questions. Why do all my jewish friends in the US hate the way israel is handling things? We all love talking up this stuff!

How much oil is under the Palestinian land? There might not be any, I don't know, do you?

I would rather look to see the conspiracy against any people than to argue like I'm there and know all about it when I'm not and don't. A lot of you understand history very well. Well enough to understand that any crime against others is a crime against yourself and the rest of the world. History will repeat itself to a point and when the "Armageddon" thing happens, the earth warming, drought, flooding, a perpetual war, Israel growing to be twice its size (Shit we should be counted as israel now ,and we have it,Armageddon anyway, Israel owns our government) and whatever else the "scriptures" say, I'll bet a lot of "Jesuss" will be born again (That way when the CIA tries to kill him he'll live on) and they will say the same thing he said before. "Quit fighting! Or I'll God damn you!"

Jesus won't call you stupid like I will.

If I see one more luxury SUV bumper sticker sayin "In case of rapture this vehicle will be unmanned" (trite little selfish bastards) .....Im gonna bust their head with the bible, cuz "there is no harm in the bible"! And make a point! Violence begets violence!

Sorry I just had to...I always wanted to be a bible thumper.

c farris - "Yes, Virginia, zionism IS racism. To condone Israel's behavior you would have to be either a nazi or a moron."

Let's examin the dictionary definition of Zionism:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zionism

I don't know about Nazi, But it seems to me that you are the moron.

I'm Zionist, and I'm far less racist than you c farris, who think Jews are the only nation who have no right for self determination.

Peter - No, I'm not Neo-Con. I appose war.

I don't think CD is anti-semic in spirit.
The content of the articles published in CD are NOT racists.

My problem with CD is with the volume and the focus, not with the content.

It surprises me none at all that so many liberals or "progressives" who post here have cheerily sidestepped the core of the issue, which is that no one has ever bothered to explain why the Palestinians have had to answer for the crimes of European anti-semitism since 1947. Obviously the Arab emirates and elite of the Arab nations have sold them out, after all, many of them are business partners of the United States, so their inability to work out an arrangement for Palestine is hardly surprising.

After all, the same U.S. citizens who rationalize the crimes of the Israelis when they talk about Palestine, can blithely turn around and continue to expect black voters to support the democrats, who have been a wholly unreliable ally to the black communities of this country for decades now. But here at home, it's perfectly acceptable for there to be a black petty boojwahzee that helps America kick us in the teeth. Over there, of course, the Arab elite who betray the Palestinians are a problem. Here at home, of course, black leaders who betray are "practical politics".

The bottom line is that apologists for United States imperialism, and the United States corporate state, are traitors to the idea of a mass democratic resistance, are afraid of what will occur when such a movement does begin to assert itself, and will side with their running dogs the democrats when the real shit starts to come down, and believe you me, with or without the people who post on sites like this, the need for a mass democratic resistance is real, both in Palestine and here at home. You can either start taking the problem seriously, or you can get the hell out of the way. It really matters very little to the rest of us who know what has to happen, both here at home and abroad.

Yes, Virginia, zionism IS racism. To condone Israel's behavior you would have to be either a nazi or a moron.

Wow, I might be wrong, but it sure looks like the ADL is monitoring the stories and discussions on Common Dreams.

Passion and support of individual religious practices is fine, but labeling critics of the government of Israel as anti-semitic is wrong.

Religion and patriotism are time tested means of rallying citizens around powerful leaders who wish to gain support for unseemly policy. The idea that 'we will never let this happen again' does not justify the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians, regardless of the experience of European Jews in the early 20th century.

The term for the acts of marginalizing or eliminating food and water sources; for confiscating land and water resources; for introducing settlers, is genocide. It may correctly be applied to Israel with regards to its continued treatment of Palestinians, in violation of international law.

Since the inception of the state of Israel, successive governments of the country have chosen to violate international law and flaunt UN sanctions, all with the support of the US government. If they really wanted peace, there'd be peace. Instead, it seems that they want other peoples' resources, and that they're willing to kill to get 'em.

Don't waste your time with comments that I'm anti-semitic. Spend that time working for justice, and maybe you'll see peace in your lifetime.

How? Maybe there'd be a greater sense of justice if there were fewer contradictions (less hypocrisy) evident in comparisons of policies concerning Israel and other countries in the region that seem to completely depend on whether or not a country is a client state of the USA. For example, it's ok politically for Israel to have nuclear power, but not Iran. Or, it's ok for Israel to commit acts of genocide but not Sudan.

Maybe it'd help international relations in the Middle East if Israel signed the Non Proliferation Treaty and allowed international inspections of their "secret" nuclear facilities.

Vet
You are so correct. The words anti-semitic were used by Adamslp when he declared you to be the Man. Of course Adamslp read between the lines and correctly perceived your calling CD as anti-semitic in spirit, if not in word. You seem to be very adept at "playing" with words. Are you by any chance a neo-con or just a run-of-the-mill Nazi? Word games have always been their forte.

So, but who'd like to see vet and his friends comment on a reversed situation when Jews were dragged out of their houses (or not) by Palestians before they ran it over with a Caterpillar just to make room for a sewage pipe to drown Jews and their belongings in raw sewage.

I'd wager the urgency of the Sudan situation would suddenly diminish.

But unlike Jews uprooting Palestinians and poisoning their land that reversed situation is ofcourse entirely unthinkable. And to not only think that is not wrong, but should be shielded from criticism by any means possible either related or unrelated is far beyond my comprehension.

Furthermore there is someone who thinks a Jewish state is somehow identified with the right of self-determination, meaning ofcourse the denying that same right to Palestinians.

The Jewish state is something entirely different from all other nations, it is by definition an Apartheid-state because your rights as an Israeli citizen are based upon your Jewishness.

An Israeli state wherein a citizen's rights are not defined by whether they are Jewish, but whether they are Israeli fits the world order and might be sustainable. A Jewish state is not, it is by (it's) definition a source of inequality and injustice and it will not last, because in the end it is incompatible with the human spirit itself.

Peter Sirois -"So this "highly intelligent" Vet person is accusing CD of being anti-semitic"

Where exactly did I accused CD of being "anti-semitic"? I never said so nor do I think so.

Now who is the "highly intelligent"???

You will find out that Israel is probably ranked as one of the top 50 best behaved countries in the world

That MIGHT be true. I have my doubts! But if so its only because of size and population numbers.

Vets does have a point though about the fact some posters do use anti-semitism. On that I agree with him and I can understand why he feel sensitive about this subject. This does not help the cause for Palestinian equal rights and human rights people. You can criticize Israel's gov't without lacing your posts with this sort of thing just as you can criticize any country's gov't without lacing in hatred and racism towards its people.

Adamsslp by the way just because I argue intelligently and with sound research does not make me a man. Its misgoynist for you to assume that automatically. I see this from men all the time on commondreams and other forums--they automatically assume my gender is male. They are shocked to learn that I am a woman. Don't make assumptions.

Adamslsp

Everything I stated is true about Israel's treatment of Arabs and Jews and you can't argue back so you point the finger at Saudi Arabia. Everyone knows Saudi Arabia is corrupt and is not a democracy and is regressive and harsh when it comes to human rights. Other Arabs and Muslims constantly criticize the Saudis and I have held many a conversation about that subject. However, Israel as you all keep saying is a democracy and we hold democracies to higher standards. The Arabs live under dictatorships so its hard to hold dictatorships accountable especially when they oppress their own people who despertly want true democracy. We also hold Israel to a higher standard because bilions of our tax dollars goto Israel. As we Americans work so hard for our money we expect something in return and that is peace and equality between Israel and the Arabs. As an American I am furious my hard earned cash goes to this brutal, disgusting, inhumane occupation. Its not a conflict that would imply that both sides recieve billions in US military aid when only one side gets US military aid. No its an occupation.

When the "occupation" by Israel turns filthy. Israel by its occupation is not spreading peace. It is spreading its sewage in other peoples living area. I don't think that is something you can consider a step forward. I don't think economic sanctions should be punitive, however I think if we make financial contributions to Israel they should be contingent on fixing problems like the one stated in the article. Walls are not a solution...look at the great wall of China as an example.

So this "highly intelligent" Vet person is accusing CD of being anti-semitic. I wonder if this brainiac Vet even knows that "Semite" refers to both Jews and Arabs. So how can one be anti-Semitic if they are pro-Palestinian (Arab)?
I really wouldn't attribute a hell-uv-a lot of credibility to anything Vet has to say.

Dougnwagner:
I did not advocate, in my hypothetical world, the occupation of Mexico or Canada. The results of either of these would be analogous to the West Bank/Gaza issue. I stopped short of that because we would be doing this, instead of working or living or playing, for another 24 hours. My point is that with an equal amount of provocation, and a proportionate amount of civilian deaths from terrorist acts, no one would say to the US "don't defend yourself, don't go after those who did it." Look, until George got us mired in Iraq, the world was behind us finding and brginging to justice those responsible for "just" 10% of that number.

To clarify, I believe that there should have/could have been a way to, and the time is long past because of the manipulation of the players and pawns, make a good, healthy decent neighbor partner of the West Bank and Gaza in the region. Economics alone could/would have driven it. The raw labor in these areas was used by Israel to do construction, man factories, staff hotels and do all sorts of work that Israelis no longer wanted to do (BTW: now people from the Far East, like the Phillipines, are working at these jobs, and making a good living). Movement across borders brought jobs, money, a better standard of living for the "silent majority" of Palestinians. It was not Israel that stopped this economic exchange. Calling for intifada and forcing their population not to work, not to exchange, not to participate, ended this. Granted not all Palestinians shared in the economic excahnge, and not all the exchanges were fair, but nothing is ever "all" in anything.

Should their be a continuing "occupation" of these lands? Only if the people in these lands were to act as my hypothetical Mexicans and Canadians, committed to destruction and terror, committed to a Canadian-Mexican border in Kansas.

No, the "occupation" has damaged Israel financially, morally and spiritually. Just as we, in the US, would have put the last four years resources to better use, to better us, to better the world, instaed of what we have done, the mess we have created, the national treasure squandered, so too Israel could have been doing the same thing, but not with a loaded gun at it's head.

A better comparison would be why the United States, Canada, and Mexico still short thrifts Native Americans when it comes to medical and social services, property titles, economic development, and political rights?

I also don't think the majority of Americans today (in your hypothetical world) would condone occupation of Mexico for 70 years as a 'final solution' to Mexican 'terrorism' or that there would be a majority of Americans that would go along with or be ignorant of, (as they did in the pre Civil War 19th century America with the exception of many abolitionists and anti-imperialists like Henry David Thoreau), the lies the United States government used at the time regarding the historical border of Texas to justify invading and occupying Mexico.

So, after all this we find:
1) Every person and every nation state sometimes does things that other will disagree with.
2) Only people and nation states with a system of liberty and justice will allow for the open disagreement and dissent, without fear of immediate and inappropriate retribution.
3) The comparison of the actions of Israel and the Nazis loses validity in both methodology and quantity.
4) No one has asked or answered this question, so I will: If the United States neighbors', Canada and Mexico were hostile to it and had the means to destroy it, (Mexico because we took Texas away from them and are ready to deport their citizens who are here illegally) and over the course of 50 years killed 35,100 noncombatants (civilians) from the United States within the confines of the US and the other territories occupied by the US, would the US be justified to defend itself and/or go into Canada or Mexico to find and destroy those who perpetrated this? I do not think for a moment anyone would say "no".
5) Within any system there are extremists of all stripes. The majority of those within the system do not hold extremist views. All the vituperative talk, all the manufacturing consent is drowning out that majority (thank you Spiro, "the silent majority"). IT is the duty of these non-extremists on all sides of the argument, to join forces on a grassroots level and drown out the extremists within their groups.
THEN, maybe we can work together on solving the real problems and making the lives of all better. Have a great Wednesday, let's see which Israel article will be posted today, so we can all do this again.

Dichterfreund,

OK, You are right. Building a fence that stop 80% of suiside bombers and save hundreds of lives is morally equivalent to building extermination camps with gas chambers that exterminate millions.

How could I be so blind to that truth...

"There are more tears shed over answered prayers than over unanswered ones." Nothing exemplifies this better than the self-degradation of the state of Israel, and the self-destructive complicity of its fanatical adorers living outside its borders.

Israel's reputation in the US is declining only a little less rapidly than America's reputation in the world. Which means that the percentage of global citizens who regard Israel as anything like a moral state is pretty small. They're all anti-semitic, of course.

The anti-semitic charge is lsing its bite mainly because the utter hatred of Israeliphiliacs for those who don't share their psychosis is palpable. People compare it to the Third Reich because its soldiers routinely gun down children and old people, and it builds immense walls & incarcerates an entire people in the name of self-defense -- and then they wildly cry "How can anyone think Israel is the same???"

gde - here is a list of all 233 members of the Israeli security forces who were killed by Palestinians within the occupied territoris.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=7

Please go through the names, and how they were killed.

Are you still convinced that all of them "willingly participate in a campaign of murder for the sake of stealing land and political domination." ???

And what about this list of Kids which were killed by Palestinians within Israel?

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=16

Was the 1 years old baby also willingly participate in a campaign of murder for the sake of stealing land and political domination???

Freedom of information - to fight lies and hatered...

gde - "Fuck off ... Israelis are killed by non-Israeli Palestinians, and almost all of those are killed because they willingly participate in a a campaign of murder for the sake of stealing land and political domination."

Swearing, and usage of curse language is the least of your problems. The biggest concern however is the accurancy of what you say.

Here are statistics from the last Intifada.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

Let's see if it is true what you have claimed that the majority of Israeli casualties are people who "willingly participated in a campaign of ... bla bla bla...."

Total number of Israeli security forces killed by Palestinians: 320

Israeli civilians: 704
Foreign Citizens: 53
Israeli minors: 119
Total of Israeli non-combatant killed by Palestinians: 823

So you see - Who is posting lies?

Also not all 320 Israeli security people were willingly participated in what you describes as "campaign of murder for the sake of stealing land and political domination" Some of them were just soldiers being lynched for the crime of making the wrong turn, or similar navigation error. Some were fighting for their lives, or the lives of their families.

gde - Don't sweare and lie in order to promote your hate agenda.

The truth will set you free. Free information is on my side.

Reading these comments reminds me seeing a shit fight in a honkey tonk bar and grill on a hot Saturday night during a full moon. Glad you guys aren't all in the same room together.

To set the record straight I am not from Canada, it is vets that is from Canada. I am from USA.

To vets --> I'm not sure how it is that you are being forced to develop oil sands and sell it to the US. Just because NAFTA says that you must sell 75% to US doesn't mean you have to develop the stuff. And as far as I know it was Canada's choice to sign NAFTA with the US, so how come now it you have to do whatever you do?

So I say it is evil and it is evil for Canada to produce it and evil for the US to buy it.

But this is a discussion of the evil being done by Israel, so lets have this conversation on some other forum.

Jazzbone: Fuck off. You deserve to go to hell. I'm tired of being polite, it is just totally impolite when referrring to Israel or US policy toward Arabs, which is mass murder. Few Israelis are killed by non-Israeli Palestinians, and almost all of those are killed because they willingly participate in a a campaign of murder for the sake of stealing land and political domination.

I don't hate Jews who believe their God told them not to kill. I do hate those who believe that killing for financial gain is proper, and those who support them; sfter all the fallout may kill my kid.

To those who object to my language, consider the consequences of what is going on. And to jazzbone and others who agree with him: FUCK YOU YOU DESERVE TO ROT IN HELL>

jimm_barr - "My own country is Canada. What Evil thing are they doing?

Helping to strangle Haiti comes to my mind.

jimm_barr - "My own country is Canada. What Evil thing are they doing?
Developing oil sands and selling the oil to the United States."

What choise do we have? I don't want to see through my office window M1A1 Abrams rolling down the street. Oil sands will flow to the states regardless.

B.T.W Did you know that according to NAFTA, Canada must sell at least 75% of its oil to the USA? or else...

UtahRaven - CD, like any other media, has an agenda.

I never said though that CD's agenda is anti-semitism. It is not.
It is however, a biased agenda that over criticize Israel, and under critisize everyone else (perhaps with the exception of the USA).

If you want to learn how the media works, I would recommend Chomski's book "Manufacturing Consent"
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/105-6340237-2821246?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-...

My own country is Canada. What Evil thing are they doing?

Developing oil sands and selling the oil to the United States.

When criticism of Israel includes terms like "Nazi", "genocide" or "Holocaust", I know with certainty that I can dismiss the author as either anti-Jewish or a historical dunce. It saves me the trouble of reading on.

On the other hand, there are rational and valid ways to confront Israeli missteps and brutality without that ridiculous hyperbole.

Israel is an imperfect state trying to survive while surrounded and vastly outnumbered by hostile nations which are monarchies and/or theocracies, most of which are bent on its destruction. When I disagree with Israel's methods, I'm certain that a large percentage of Israelis will also publicly disagree, forcing accountability and policy
changes. Try that in Gaza, Syria, Iran or Egypt and see how far you'll get.

Although I don't condone many actions by the Israelis, I also don't know how I would behave under the constant threat of Katushas and suicide bombers after forty-five unrelenting years since Fatah was formed. It must certainly result in
frayed nerves and ethical missteps for any society and government.

Vets and Adamslp think the CD has an agenda?? Never mind that CD is more or less a traditional media agregator.

"...disgusted by the ugly anti-semitism disguised as criticism of Israel rampant on Common Dreams." S/he needs to take this up with the writer of this article.

Anyways, this whole Israel stuff is just so incredibly old as time: violence begets violence begets people who have no shortage of rationalizations and justifications for violence and more begetting of violence and justifications ad nauseum. It's a constant, chronic downward spiral perpetuated by both sides. neither side has the guts to stop it.

locust - true that Semite refers to Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians.

However, language is something that evolve in time.
Anti-semites these days has evolve to have somewhat narrower meaning than the straight forward translation.

If you have been living on an alien planet for the past 200 years - here is a link that can help you understand what most people these days are ferering too when someone uses that word:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Anti-semites

been out, here now, read posts, say this:

Semite refers to Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians.
Anti-semites, please inform us which of these particular sub-groups you are reviling. I would hate to blindly hate someone by mistake.

"our oil supply in the Middle East" -- my favorite line so far today.

Yes, there are a lot of news items about Israel and its not so friendly neighbors. I would much rather bring your attention to Zimbabwe, the land of beautiful people who have no future because the government took it away for themselves.
But Israel has nukes (Zimbabwe has nothing, now) and Israel can trigger WWIII, which might end civilized life on Earth.

The USA-Israel bond can also be seen historically as another instance of big country-small ally - without even bringing religion into it.
Ancient Athens lost her empire because of allies.
The last Kaiser supported Austria-Hungary and World War I destroyed Imperial Germany when the war got out of control, as wars tend to do.
Allies can be more trouble than you'd expect.

Guess I will say, the truth is always the perfect defense___ and the best argument. Like beauty, sometimes the truth is in the eye of the beholder and sometimes it is so very obvious. There are many truths posted in the comments here, and some are diametrically opposed.

Just read all of the comments, wow!

Glad I stayed off of this one. I'll wait and read the rest.

Aladdin:

"Israel is in a political struggle with the Palestinians, they are not exterminating them.

While Israel is at fault on many levels, it has no extermination camps, it performs no scientific experiments on innocent children, it doesn't make furniture out of Palestinian skins!"

No, actually they are exterminating them where they live instead of wasting good American$$$ for such things as camps. Besides, the Palestinians have their own refugee camps instead. Makes it easier to bomb them.

"If we talk about demonizing, it is Israel which is constantly demonized by extremely narrow views no different than the Christian fundamentalists who support the settlment funding. People here are as ignorant, but calim to be "intellectuals" or "Peace demonstrators!"

Review your history before you claim that Israel is not interested in peace. It is just easy to identify with the obvious victim. you all need your villain"

So, who's claiming victimhood here?

Maybe you should get real instead.

I have been paying attention to this conflict since before the 1967 war and all I can conclude is that the Jews have become the Nazis, just like we in America have become the USSR and everyone else we were supposed to fear back then.

PS... my grandfather was a rabi.

I think King said it best in hisA Time to Break The Silence speech:
." Increasingly, by choice or by accident, this is the role our nation has taken, the role of those who make peaceful revolution impossible by refusing to give up the privileges and the pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investments. I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin...we must rapidly begin the shift from a thing-oriented society to a person-oriented society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered."
We do really need a revolution of values in this day and age of decadence. The lack of compassion for the suffering of others is immense. We can never overcome all the challenges of the future unless we take a good hard look at ourselves. We must take responsibility for our part in all of this. No man or woman is an island. We all have an effect on the welfare of others.We must be whole as individuals first before we can be whole cities or whole nations. No matter how you slice it it starts with each and every one of US.

Stop comparing Israel to the Nazis!

Israel is in a political struggle with the Palestinians, they are not exterminating them.

While Israel is at fault on many levels, it has no extermination camps, it performs no scientific experiments on innocent children, it doesn't make furniture out of Palestinian skins!

Got it??

GET REAL... and find real solutions instead of making ridiculous statments because your romantic view of the world is tainted by a political conflict.

If we talk about demonizing, it is Israel which is constantly demonized by extremely narrow views no different than the Christian fundamentalists who support the settlment funding. People here are as ignorant, but calim to be "intellectuals" or "Peace demonstrators!"

Review your history before you claim that Israel is not interested in peace. It is just easy to identify with the obvious victim. you all need your villain.

How many Jews have been invited back to the land the Arabs forced them off of?
I am sorry the United States has kept the Jews from retaliating to Palestinian war as they should. Palestin is the world's whine capitol

Dcbeltway,

Holly shit! I've just watched the clip, I find it disturbing. This McCain guy is senile.

Goose 2:
You seem to have a lot of time on your hands.
Sorry about my spelling of "intellectual." 'Twas but a typo.
The problem is not a perpetual war by the Palestinians. It's that Israel launched a perpetual pogrom against the Palestinians 40 years ago.

how about, give shalom a chance? I'm all for and about shalom...Israel invented the word, shouldn't they use it?

Also, it's one thing to report that Israel is doing the above, however, why is it anti-Semitism to do something about it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel has more UN weapons violations than any other Middle Eastern country. We should do something about that.

Hang in there Vets. I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but you are right on the money on this issue. You are thoughtful and aware of history.

As I have posted before, the Wall will make the separation between Palestine and Israel permanent. If the Palestinians aren't willing to deal, they are going to lose everything they have left and be barred from Israel forever. Already their jobs there have been replaced by foreigners from other countries and new Israeli immigrants. The future for them has to be peace on fair terms with Israel or poverty till their host countries, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, decide they are human beings with rights to citizenship there.

Progressives that call for a boycott on Israel simply are no longer able to tell right from wrong. Palestine is in a continual state of war with Israel and they target women and children without compunction. Israel responds and the cycle continues, but the war started with Palestine and it needs to end there. Palestine can have peace any time it wants, but the terms will get worse and worse and worse with time. If you want to end the violence, call on the Palestinians to deal honestly with Israel while they still can.

LMAO "There needs to be a total, worldwide boycott of everything coming out of Israel, including an ibntellectual boycott"

Guess you started that boycott already did you?

These people are without a vestige of shame. And when you criticize Israel, its American Quislings scream anti-semitism. One would have thought that their own experiences in Nazi death camps would have taught them some humility in dealing with others. But the idea that one is a member of a group that has a special covenant with god doesn't allow for humility.

There needs to be a total, worldwide boycott of everything coming out of Israel, including an ibntellectual boycott.