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White House Acts to Limit Health Plan for Children
The Bush administration, continuing its fight to stop states from expanding the popular Children's Health Insurance Program, has adopted new standards that would make it much more difficult for New York, California and others to extend coverage to children in middle-income families.
Administration officials outlined the new standards in a letter sent to state health officials on Friday evening, in the middle of a month-long Congressional recess. In interviews, they said the changes were aimed at returning the Children's Health Insurance Program to its original focus on low-income children and to make sure the program did not become a substitute for private health coverage.
After learning of the new policy, some state officials said today that it could cripple their efforts to cover more children by imposing standards that could not be met.
Ann Clemency Kohler, deputy commissioner of human services in New Jersey, said: "We are horrified at the new federal policy. It will cause havoc with our program and could jeopardize coverage for thousands of children."
Stan Rosenstein, the Medicaid director in California, said the federal policy was "highly restrictive, much more restrictive than what we want to do."
The poverty level for a family of four is $20,650 in annual income. New York now covers children in families with income up to 250 percent of the poverty level. The State Legislature has passed a bill that would raise the limit to 400 percent of the poverty level - $82,600 for a family of four - but the change is subject to federal approval.
California wants to increase its income limit to 300 percent of the poverty level, from 250 percent. Pennsylvania recently raised its limit to 300 percent, from 200 percent. New Jersey has had a limit of 350 percent for more than five years.
As on other issues like immigration, the White House is taking action on its own to advance policies that were not embraced by Congress.
In his budget request in February, President Bush proposed strict limits on family income for the child health program. But in voting this month to renew the program for five years, neither house of Congress accepted that proposal for the program, whose legal authority for the child health program expires on Sept. 30. The policy in the Bush administration's letter would continue indefinitely, although Democrats in Congress could try to pass legislation overriding it.
The Children's Health Insurance Program has strong support from governors of both parties, including Republicans like Arnold Schwarzenegger of California, Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota and Sonny Perdue of Georgia. When the Senate passed a bill to expand the program this month, 18 Republican senators voted for it, in defiance of a veto threat from Mr. Bush.
In the letter sent to state health officials about 7:30 p.m. on Friday, Dennis G. Smith, the director of the federal Center for Medicaid and State Operations, set a high standard for states that want to raise eligibility for the child health program above 250 percent of the poverty level.
Before making such a change, Mr. Smith said, states must demonstrate that they have "enrolled at least 95 percent of children in the state below 200 percent of the federal poverty level" who are eligible for either Medicaid or the child health program.
Deborah S. Bachrach, a deputy commissioner in the New York State Health Department, said, "No state in the nation has a participation rate of 95 percent."
And Cindy Mann, a research professor at the Health Policy Institute of Georgetown University, said, "No state would ever achieve that level of participation under the president's budget proposals."
The Congressional Budget Office has said that the president's budget, which seeks $30 billion from 2008 to 2012, is not enough to pay for current levels of enrollment, much less to cover children who are eligible but not enrolled.
When Congress created the Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, it said the purpose was to cover "uninsured low-income children." Under the law, states are supposed to make sure public coverage "does not substitute for coverage under group health plans;" but the law did not specify what states must do.
In an interview today, Mr. Smith said: "The program was always meant for children in lower-income families. As states move higher up the income scale, it's more likely to substitute for private coverage."
To minimize the risk of such substitution, Mr. Smith said in his letter, states should charge co-payments or premiums that approximate the cost of private coverage and should impose "waiting periods," to make sure higher-income children do not go directly from a private health plan to a public program.
If a state wants to set its income limit above 250 percent of the poverty level ($51,625 for a family of four), Mr. Smith said, "the state must establish a minimum of a one-year period of uninsurance for individuals" before they can receive public coverage.
That is considerably stricter than requirements imposed in the past. In February, for example, the Bush administration allowed Pennsylvania to increase its income limit to 300 percent of the poverty level after the state agreed to a six-month waiting period for children who are 2 and older with family incomes exceeding 200 percent of the poverty level.
As another precaution, Mr. Smith said, states wanting to cover children above 250 percent of the poverty level must show that "the number of children in the target population insured through private employers has not decreased by more than two percentage points over the prior five-year period."
In New Jersey, which has a three-month waiting period, Ms. Kohler said, "we have no evidence of a decline in employer-sponsored coverage resulting from the Children's Health Insurance Program."
In the Senate debate this month, several Republicans offered a proposal similar to the new Bush administration policy. They wanted to require states to cover 95 percent of low-income children before allowing states to expand eligibility.
Senator Max Baucus, the Montana Democrat who is chairman of the Finance Committee, argued against the proposal, saying: "No state can meet 95 percent. No state currently meets 95 percent."
Ms. Kohler estimated that New Jersey was covering 70 percent of eligible children.
In his letter, Mr. Smith said the new standards would apply to states that previously received federal approval to cover children with family incomes exceeding 250 percent of the poverty level. Such states should amend their state plans to meet federal expectations within 12 months, or the Bush administration "may pursue corrective action," Mr. Smith said.
Two Republican senators, Charles E. Grassley of Iowa and Pat Roberts of Kansas, urged the Bush administration last week to deny New York's request to cover children with family incomes up to four times the poverty level. The proposal, they said, violates the original intent of Congress, which wanted to focus on lower-income children.
But Gov. Eliot Spitzer of New York said that, "contrary to the senators' objections," federal law allows states to set higher income limits.
"Granting this expansion is essential to the health and well-being of New York's children," Mr. Spizter said.
Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company



87 Comments so far
Show AllAnd where is the Democratic Congress? Whatever happened to expanding SCHIP? Now that Bush is restricting the program, what will Congressional Dems do? Anything?
If the "Dems" do not act to stop this we MUST act to stop them. I wonder of they even think they could lose their cushy jobs if they do not start acting like our Representatives.
This seems like a plan:
Keep them dumb.
Keep them unwell.
Keep them poor.
THEN, when they turn 18, the military suddenly looks like a great option (even though the health care in the military sucks, the pay is lousy, and the benefits for education a total joke).
More bodies for their war machine...
Why should children in middle income families be subsidized when they are in middle income families? It is the parents responsibility to pay for the costs they incur when choosing to have children, and as middle income earners, they can certainly afford it...if they are not placing other things ahead of their kids health care. At the very least these benefits *should* be means tested, and yet that is what the author is complaining about.
The plan I see is incrementally placing more and more people on the dole...to increase support for socializing care for the entire nation after habituating kids and families to the idea that it's someone elses responsibility to carry them.
Some would say that the whole SCHIP proposal recently was a political ploy to show the difference in views on this matter, that might be. I do not believe that the Democrats are above playing politics, but they are so obvious when they do it. They lack the deception and cunning of their evil opponents.
I think that the Democrats really wanted the working poor families to have better health care and that the priorities should be on that and not more no bid contracts for Halliburton and others. This is a solid principle and if there is some political ground to be gained, then so much the better.
re MtnGoat 1:09pm
here's the question you should have asked: why should middle-income families subsidize giant corporations like aetna and united/oxford? what value do they add to the transaction between doctor and patient?
This is another action by Bush-Cheney to legislate or appoint during recesses without Congressional oversight. Expanding SCHIP is a easy & effective way to improve the health of all children and strength our deteriorating vastly under funded public health system. Congress must stop this self-appointed imperialistic president and take back the federal budget from the neocons for neglected domestic needs instead of the administrations unilaterial militaristic foreign polices.
They add the value of modern facilities accessible with minimum waits and new procedures and medications, organized by a system that *must* satisfy it's customers...or else it doesn't make money. They have no direct line to your wallet and are not run for political reasons with politicians making determinations concerning what will and will not be provided.
The fact is that if I don't like the care I get, I can walk away and choose another provider...without leaving the country, without expending years and zillions of bucks to wait for a change via govt. And there's not a danged thing Aetna or any other company can do about it. If they want my money, they must discretely satisfy me...and I have total control over wether or not my money goes to them. I hold the whip hand over their money.
Bush and his crew probably think that if the poor want health care for their children badly enough, they can join the military and get all they want.
DEMPUBLICAN PARTY: PUTTING CORPORATE PROFITS BEFORE CHILDRENS HEALTH
White Corporate AmeriKKKa the threat to Global Peace
Rich people running a fascist police state...
Viva la European progressive forward thinking democracy which gives you excellent health care, living standards and working conditions...
"I hold the whip hand over their money."
It didn't take long for the republicans to figure out how to make comments. How long before this place is as bad as Huffpo?
re MtnGoat 1:54pm
insurance companies make money by cherry-picking only the healthiest of clients (see "pre-existing conditions" clause) and dumping the remainder on medicare/medicaid, collecting premiums and denying coverage, leaving the patient to pay out of pocket (if able). they do not provide "modern facilities...new procedures (or) medications," at least not in this plane of existence. they provide nothing but redundant paperwork and unnecessary waiting for reimbursement, and elevate their profit-driven decisions over the medical judgement of doctors who have actually seen the patients in question.
MtnGoat, you're delusional if you think you have any kind of "hold" over these giant corporations. They've bought the politicians, they have you paying your own AND their taxes, their lobbyists write the laws giving them free rein to do as they please. You have none of these rights. But you do get a 70 cent minimum wage increase (first in 10 years while inflation has so eroded income that we're in danger of paying them to work for them). How come I don't hear you complaining about that? The corporations are ruining our standards of living and funding politicians who are turning our democracy into a fascist state, and you're like a cheerleader with pompoms, rooting for them. I can't figure out if you're getting paid to do this or if you're so blinded by Ayn Rand that you can't see what's happening in the real world. In Ayn Rand's world, people weren't getting kicked in the teeth by mega-corporations, but in this world, we are.
I recommend you go watch SiCKO. It reveals what you regard as these amazingly benevolent corporations are doing to us. This isn't Michael Moore making anything up, it's real peoples' experiences at the hands of these companies, and some revealing statements from CEOs. It's real life, not your dream world of complete self-sufficiency. I realize your philosophy is every man for himself, and hey, if someone can't cut it, tough shit, unless a good Samaritan happens along and chooses to offer a hand.
we already know from the war that millions of people protesting in the street solves nothing. how about millions of naked gun-toting people occupying the halls of congress
MtnGoat: In other posts I have seen you make reasonable arguments and some good points. This is not one of them. Not by a long shot! Did it ever occur to you that poor parents do not have the option of getting any healthcare for their children? That they don't have the bucks to decide who offfers the best insurance? YOU may have a choice to vote with YOUR bucks, but they don't. That means their children DIE! Get it? They DIE!! And for what? For the profit driven insurance companies and big pharma.
Get a grip! The individual states have a much better sense of what is good for the children in their states. The federal government doen't have a clue and should not be dictating to the states. Period!
At least some states are trying to protect their most vulnerable occupants - the children. While the federal government twiddles its thumbs (do they even have opposable thumbs?) and does nothing to provide universal, single payor, healthercare for all.
America is the ONLY industrialized nation that does not have universal healthcare. Why? Greed! And what do we get for all those profits to the big corps? One of the worst healthcare systems in the world.
Medicare for all NOW!
Support HR626! Get your congress critter to sign on! The vote for Dennis Kucinich in the primaries.
Kathy, I do believe your critizism of Mtn Goat's comments is rather gentle.___ You're too nice.
If you wont take care of your children, why should I? Get another beer or joint Mac.
Ignore Cheneybush and his venal attempts to enrich the rich already. Insiders should ignore this - and all future efforts - to screw over hard working Americans struggling to survive in the era of the super-obscenely-wealthy "ownership society," where if it's not loyalbushies like Enron ramming it to us, or big oil, or big farm, or big pharma, then it's big insurance - all with a lot of welfare and deregs from the Loonitary Dictator and his GOPathological minions.
To argue that denying even more poor children the right to basic health care because it might encourage some to NOT buy private insurance they cannot afford anyhow is yet another sign of just how deep the loyalbushie mental illness is. And, to RH above - yea, I took care of my kid and he got lead poisoning from his favorite Chinese toy. My insurance won't cover it. Any suggestions, moron?
We all pay taxes, but we don't all have health care. Looks like the Moms win out here! There are few things more heart wrenching than a sick child whether or not they happen to have health insurance. When we pay taxes AND we all have access to good health care the playing field will be more level.
Hazmat, Collidingrivers and Rebel Farmer are all right. By cutting back on children's access to health care somewhere, somehow, somebody is making money. Every decision made by the 'decider' benefits somebody. I agree that the ProLifers insist that every microscopic potential be born, but then the
rest is up to you until they are eligible for cannon fodder. And it doesn't end there. If they are wounded and maimed and suffering from God only knows what they are still on their own. It is imperitive to improve the bottom line of the elite. I suggest that Mtn.Goat spend a couple of days in a children' hospital for R and R (reawakening and restoration.)
Kathyodat, you're delusional if you think i made any claim I have a hold over them. What I have a hold over is wether or not I choose to pay them for my health care. Everything else is an outcome you've backed with your inherently flawed attempts to co-opt buisness using govt.
Every bit of power they purchase from govt is power which resides with govt because you support placing it there to begin with. When they buy subsidies, it's because you support the State having the power to deliver them to anyone. When they buy market restrictions, it's because you support the State having the power to create them. Then power does what power does, and gets govt to use what you delegated to shape everything to it's own liking.
The fact of the matter is power knows how to pursue power, and as long as your belief persists that you can isolate power from the powerful, you'll keep right on delivering the power to be purchased by the highest bidder.
" they do not provide "modern facilities…new procedures (or) medications," at least not in this plane of existence. they provide nothing but redundant paperwork and unnecessary waiting for reimbursement, and elevate their profit-driven decisions over the medical judgement of doctors who have actually seen the patients in question."
I'm sorry, I do not prefer govt panels imposing their values based on political reasoning in what to pay or not pay for. Like it or not, medical care is a physical commodity like anything else, and no matter who rations it, people will die.
I prefer to decide who rations to me, rather than having some State functionary use their own goals and their own lust for power and votes take my money by force, and do it for the benefit of their own reasons.
Evidently MNT GOAT, hasn't had to visit an emergency room or had a serious illness in the family, such as a child suffering with a broken arm or a cancer. Middle class people should be able to afford treatments for their kids___ if they manage their money the Goat says.
Well Goat, the middle class people in America are the ones who are just making ends meet, both parents working, and or, one just laid off because their job was outsourced to China or sales are down and "sorry gotta let you go". That's middle class America Goat. Then an unexpected medical bill of $30 to $50,000 or much much more, which middle class American family cannot possibly pay, and after ninety days or so, the bill goes to a collection agency. The lower class Americans, of which a great many were middle class Americans six years ago,(2,000bb) don't even get past the doctors receptionist.
Meanwhile, the child of an illegal alien gets treated with the best of medical care, and they have NO bill to pay. Their thousands of dollars medical bill is paid by government insurance, supplied by the middle class workers taxes.
If you continually wish to support Bush, Mnt Goat, please go there and whoop it up, where you won't annoy the Americans who care about what is going on in our country in such a disasterous manner. You wrote the same type of Bush supporting crap on another string yesterday. Well, at least your ignorance gets a fair discussion going. On second thought Goat, stink around,__ you may be helping.
Oh,___ 2,000bb is 2,000 before Bush.
MtnGoat, you would do well to read HR 676 before judging it. It does not make any decisions about health care, that is between the care provider and patient, it simply pays the bills and is funded through a 3% tax increase, a small business tax increase, a 1/2 of 1% tax on stock transactions, and closing corporate tax loopholes. The system we have now is horribly wasteful, and 18,000 uninsured Americans die every year because they do not have health care. HR 676 covers all medical needs for all Americans and visitors to this country. As do other Western industrialized countries. It's civilized, would free up our economy, making it more competitive with other economies. right now, insurers do their best to deny payments, sue homeowners' insurance to pay medical bills, raise havoc all over the place. It appears that you only inform yourself with what you want to know, not what is really going on.
a guiding principle of libertarian thought is that gov't should do only that which the people can't do for themselves; for example, defend against invasion, build infrastructure and enforce contracts. well, what if we the people decided that we like that old barn-raising, look-after-your-neighbor ethic? what if we decided that guaranteeing the health of all was just the right thing to do?
a gov't based on mutual aid and reciprocity would be exactly the right vehicle for such aspirations. we can have it if we want it, but we'll have to scrape the insurance corporations off our shoes first (and trolls like MtnGoat with them).
MtnGoat is obviously a self-laid egg. I didn't think there was such a thing. But I guess my eyes have been opened. How lucky that he wasn't born to poor parents!
I don't know which one is worse these days insurance company's or banks. Both have a control over everything.
Actually, the insurance company's own the banks, the banks launder the money and provide us with accounts and credit cards. Who owns the insurance company's?___ Good question,__ be fun to trace the money trail and the paper work and find out.
I thought the saying was 'suffer the little children to come unto me'
NOT
make the little children suffer
An angry actor from California once obediently said that Government is the problem. Depending on how you look at the statement, it can come across as something you immediately agree with. The message this fool was trying to get across is that punishment, or worse, indifference, is the only way greed and profit will take precedence over everything else in society. So, Health Care for Children is too expensive, according to the current employees. Ammunition is far more profitable to these guys then your health. There aren't any hearings for death machinery, the middle class without question will pay for cluster bombs, scanning equipment at airports, or lose their lives.
When tyrants are threatened, they'll be sure to remind us of how bad Government is. It's unbelievable the shit that people in this country will tolerate from their corporate masters.
Well Bane, That is why we should listen to citizens like Kathyodat, the HR 676 bill would pretty much solve the probem.
I have a question for collidingrivers. Just what in the world do you base your statement, "health care in the military sucks, the pay is lousy, and the benefits for education a total joke" on? Have you spent any time in the military? I am retired Navy and think that you are full of it. The best medical treatment is prevention and the military is the only occupation I know of where you have to pass a semiannual physical fitness test. How many bosses have you had that gave you time off to PT? I had an annual physical and access to some of the best doctors I have ever met. The pay may be lousy initially, but it starts to catch up and really becomes good when you retire (actually called deferred compensation) at the age of 38 and collect 50% adjusted to the CPI annually for the rest of your life. That retirement and my GI Bill paid for my Bachelor of Sciences degree without taking out student loans. So, I ask you again, on what are you basing your opinion?
"Evidently MNT GOAT, hasn't had to visit an emergency room or had a serious illness in the family, such as a child suffering with a broken arm or a cancer."
Of course not. If someone disagree with you, it must be because of identity politics in some way. It cannot be a disagreement in principle or logic, it must be because ideas are relative only to those who have experienced what you purport.
Does a 2 month premature emergency C section count? A broken elbow? How about a fall and e room trip?
What does it say about your argument that one can experience these things and not only believe something in opposition to you, but consider that they *strengthen* the argument in opposition to you, when you think they should do the opposite?
"you continually wish to support Bush, Mnt Goat, please go there and whoop it up, where you won't annoy the Americans who care about what is going on in our country in such a disasterous manner. "
I don't support Bush. He should be threatening to veto the entire bill no matter *what* details it contains, because placing ever more direct control over care out of the hands of citizens and into the hands of state functionaries is to be avoided at all costs, and he has done this not only the hideous prescription drug bill, but with medicare and other issues as well.
Don't make the mistake of assuming that 'caring' is only the way you define it.
"MtnGoat, you would do well to read HR 676 before judging it. It does not make any decisions about health care, that is between the care provider and patient, it simply pays the bills"
It pays the bills...and decides *what kinds of bills to pay*. There is no separating deciding what to pay from making decisions about health care. Each decision of what to pay and now much is *exactly* a decision about health care and what will be provided.
"what if we decided that guaranteeing the health of all was just the right thing to do?"
You'd find that such a guarantee was a lie and an impossibility. NOT ONE socialized system on Earth 'guarantees' health care to all. They ration, just like everyone else. In Canada and other nations, it's by waiting list, and restrictions on procedures, drugs, and access to specialists, based on budget constraints imposed for political reasons. Tell us someone else will be deciding who gets what and how much, and that some state board will decide when to let you die of cancer because a new treatment is too expensive...don't lie to us and tell this will not occur.
The fact is that all material goods are rationed, this will also be rationing, people will in fact die denied things they need which are ratioined...just be honest about the unfortunate reality of limited resources and what must be done because of it.
Otherwise, you cannot even begin to have an honest discussion that applies to the real world.
MtnGoat, the fact of the matter is, we're already at the point where people are dying or being disabled because they don't get employer insurance, can't survive a pre-existing condition exclusionary period, can't afford to self-pay, can't find providers who'll take self-pay and/or can't get (or can't afford) privately purchased insurance. We even have people dying or being disabled because the insurance companies denied appropriate care or delayed it unreasonably. We already have health care rationing, it's just being done by private companies that control the market.
At least if we had a single payer system like HR 676, we'd have a good idea of what would or wouldn't be paid, and if it worked right we'd have guaranteed access to basic/maintenance care.
MtnGoat,
My sister is a Canadian so you can't mislead me about the Canadian healthcare system. Longer waits in the U.S. for health care. My sister and her family don't want to live in the U.S. because of our bad healthcare system. Her family is well off but likes the Canadian health care system.
Hey, "MtnGoat"! How much attention do you need?
Technical arguments devoid of the ability to SENSE any form of reality. You remind me of the Fox/O'Reilly type. A hawk who has never held someones brain matter in their hands. I've been there - done that. There is a real time stench involved. You cannot fathom life and death at this level, so you put forth your Peter Pan advice annonymously. You have me confused with someone who gives a damn about such obviously contrived crap.
So you have money! Good for you, sis. Go spend it - as obviously this argument is meaningless to you. Stop the public mental masturbation, mouthpiece, and go buy a nice toy for yourself. I, for one, shall not respond your mayonaise loaded tripe again.
Fondly,
Invite all to look at another solution that considers individuals not groups, and is interested in fighting poverty and inequality.
Your friend, John
Go to WWUNITED.ORG
MtnGoat,
I understand your perspective. But wait until you go in for cancer treatment. Then you will be at the beckoning mercy of those healthcare providers, hoping that one of them will insure you.
People, talking to MtnGoat is like talking to a deaf wall. Whoever this person is, he/she is obviously totally ignorant of HR 676 and has condemned it without a hearing. To insist that it will determine what is and is not paid for is being clueless. I already stated that it will pay for ALL treatments ordered by a licensed health care professional and was contradicted by MtnGoat without any supporting evidence except the perennial howl of "socialized medicine". Sounds like a dinosaur in our midst.
I suggest we stop wasting our time trying to dialogue with someone who just keeps repeating the same worn out Ayn Rand banalities without any supporting facts.
The reality on the ground is that this health care system is incredibly expensive, covers far too few Americans, uses enormous amounts of our premium payments to deny coverage and treatment, initiates lawsuits against homeowners to get out of paying for injuries, pays it's CEOs obscene salaries and bonuses, spends a third of our health care dollars on itself, and pays an army of 1,000 lobbyists to have it's way with Congress.
The following is an excerpt from the California Nurses Association (at the end is a link to the full article):
When former Pfizer CEO Henry McKinnell left the company in 2006, he was given pension, stock and other benefits worth 180 million dollars, according to AFL-CIO Corpwatch.
But CEO William McGuire, of UnitedHealth Group, a health insurance company, stands alone. His annual salary in 2005 was 124 million dollars and he has been provided stock options worth more than 1.7 billion dollars, according to Forbes.com. As part of his retirement package, he and his spouse will receive free health care for as long as they live, according to AFL-CIO Corpwatch.
This is not the case for the average U.S. family, Woolhandler said. If a parent becomes too ill to work, they may lose their salary and be unable to pay their health insurance.
"We found that three-quarters of people bankrupted by illness had insurance at the beginning," Woolhandler said.
People who have an existing illness, like asthma, are charged double the price for insurance or may be refused altogether, said Woolhandler, who founded Physicians for a National Health Program, which wants the U.S. to switch to a government-run health care system, as in Canada.
http://www.calnurse.org/media-center/in-the-news/2007/april/page.jsp?itemID=30198374
"My sister is a Canadian so you can't mislead me about the Canadian healthcare system. Longer waits in the U.S. for health care. My sister and her family don't want to live in the U.S. because of our bad healthcare system. Her family is well off but likes the Canadian health care system."
Odd, then why did the Canadian supreme court rule that access to a waiting list is NOT access to health care? Why did the Canadian woman wind up in the US to have her quads due to a lack of staff at her own hospital? It seems something here isn't adding up.
maybe this is Bush's version of China's population controls.
As a Statistician myself, I can tell you that nearly all Life Expectancies use infant mortality in their calculations. So when you see average life expectency, keep in mind it also includes infant mortality.
So it's why 80-100 years ago, at the beginning of the 20th century, life expectancy in America was only like 48-50. Too many infants were dying and skewing the data substantially lower. Nowadays, not only are we having less children (lower birth rate) but we're keeping a higher rate of them alive and well when they're born through their childhood. This restrictions placed on this program are invariably going to against this great progress of health care.
Health Care has made great strides, there's no discounting that. The problem is health care access, and insurance and always has been. Let's try to stay on topic when we fight for universal health care.
"People, talking to MtnGoat is like talking to a deaf wall. Whoever this person is, he/she is obviously totally ignorant of HR 676 and has condemned it without a hearing. To insist that it will determine what is and is not paid for is being clueless. I already stated that it will pay for ALL treatments ordered by a licensed health care professional and was contradicted by MtnGoat without any supporting evidence except the perennial howl of "socialized medicine"."
I suggest you are the 'deaf wall', whatever that is, Kathyodat. Are you so unable to reason that you do not realize that deciding it will pay for the treatments you mention is proof that the State will be deciding what to pay for and what not to pay for?
Please explain for us how the power to define what you will pay for, is not the power to decide what will be paid for...just as I stated. Seriously, when one can't even see these basics it is seriously in doubt you are making valid judgements concerning the issue in question.
I am reminded of a presidential debate between then VP Al Gore and Governor George Bush. Gore commented that the condition of poor women and children in Texas was one of the worst in the country. All Bush said was, "Are you saying I'm hard-hearted?"
If Bush would ask me that question, I would answer that, not only is Bush hard-hearted, he is downright mean. He has had an insulated and privileged life and it has made him shallow, cruel and arrogant.
There! I said it!
You're right Kathy, it's like arguing with a blank wall, so I won't respond to the Goat's latest.
I do not understand why medical care cannot be at least in some ways, like it was before the 1960s. We had a community doctor, who was a highly regarded physician. Every weekday after 6pm, we could go to his home where he had a clinic, and be seen by him for almost any ailment. He had a clerk and a nurse, the charge was always the same($2.00) Two bucks. He was a fine doctor, who normally saw about twenty patients every evening. There were other doctors in the community who provided the same type of doctoring and in an emergency would make house calls. They all had expensive homes and drove luxury automobiles.___ We didn't have health care insurance then. It cost about three hundred bucks total for a three day stay in the hospital to pop out a baby, etc.___ I never did that.
Now I see my doctor, after an appointment and a week long wait. He has a nurse, three medical techs, five office workers who sit in front of computers and do the necessary paperwork, finally a receptionist. An office visit is $72.00, unless the doctor does something and or perscribes medication, then the price goes way up. He has a wonderful home and drives a luxury automobile and has his private aircraft. No house calls and if you are pregnant, you are gonna get screwed again, several times if you have either lousy or no insurance.
"You're right Kathy, it'slike arguing with a blank wall, so I won't respond to the Goat's latest."
Most likely because you can't. But I can still post, and others will fill in for you.
It's certainly interesting that I have seen no shift in *your* viewpoint in this discussion, but that someone elses commitment to ideas is a 'blank wall'. How is that consistent?
MtnGoat,
When I worked in Burlington, Vermont; some of my U.S. Citizen co-workers routinely went to Canada for their medical care and our congressman took busloads of people to Canada to buy their medications.
z