Draft? Daft! Manifest Insanity. While Charles continues to Rangel with his Constitutional duty to IMPEACH and use the Congressional power of the purse to END THE BUSH WARS.

Interesting that there's no national coverage of this in MSM yet. Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes before this active-duty 3-star goes down the same path as Paul O'Neil and General Shinseki because he told the truth? Rangel had a point and was playing the Devil's advocate. General Lute is where the rubber meets the road and as a Vietnam veteran, I salute him for having the courage to even say this.
For all of those who've been sitting on the fence up to now and have children and grandchildren, it's time to speak up and state your convictions because this time it won't just be the boys. Could this be the "wake up call" we needed? I hope so.

Rangel might have a point on the draft issue.

No quicker way to get the rich Democrats and Republicans to turn off "American Idol" than to reinstate the draft! "Oh! My! Not OUR babies!!!!" You want to see the middle and upper Middle Class Americans come unglued on this illegal war??? Just TRY to take their precious babies to boot camp!

But, hey! Here's the bright side! Barbara and Jenna will probably be eligible!! I'm QUITE CERTAIN there won't be ANY WAY to evade the draft if you're rich, white, pretty/handsome and connected, right?! Right?!

RIGHT???????

Finally !! Draft !! Its the only solution to our rampant violent foreign policy. This is the one sure thing to bring all Americans on to the street and unify them in their opposition. It could change the course of not just this war but also the next one which we seem to be preparing for.

"Interesting that there's no national coverage of this in MSM yet."

Well, it was "announced" on a Friday as usual.

gyptian
i agree with one exception. would a draft unify us for or against the invasion of iraq? i was against bush the day he made his speech in congress after 9/11, but.... draft is a two edged sword.

gyptian
i agree with one exception. would a draft unify us for or against the invasion of iraq? i was against bush the day he made his speech in congress after 9/11, but.... draft is a two edged sword. it could go either way.

Now is the time to try to get a position on your local draft board. When the decision comes to reinstate the draft, make sure that NO ONE gets a deferrment. That would really have the rich folks screaming.

Here's a link to the Selective Service Local Board webpage:

http://www.sss.gov/FSlocal.htm

Why must EXXON et al. use our treasure and blood for their conquest and plunder? What do we get out of it besides polution and poverty? Why do we fund the Pentagram and Generals like Betrayus and Loot? This isn't making us safer. This is destroying life on our planet.

Surprise, surprise, not even shock and awe and continual bribes (er ah make that "financial incentives") can help the "free market" do a better job than compulsory service at supplying needed cannon fodder for a pointless war.

What's the difference between a member of the active duty or reserve armed forces and a Blackwater mercenary? The rate of pay.

I wonder how much the population of Canada and Sweden will increase when this goes through.

Oh and by the way if the draft is reinstituted what will become of the Blackwater and other affiliated goon squads--are they exempt or automatically terminated from thier jobs and required to join the US military at standard service pay?

If exempted why wouldn't everyone want to join Blackwater instead of the US military (greater pay!)

If not exempt, then Blackwater and similar firms automatically consist of nothing but foriegn nationals because all US citizens have a draft obligation to fulfill first!
Hmmm...

A draft would force diligence on those who send our troops to war, since it may involve their children or grandchildren. Meanwhile it would add awareness to the effects of the war on the home front.

It would also ease the need to lower standards in order to meet th enlistment quotas, hence resulting in an improved military.

Mr Rengel is right..

Bring back the draft, that'll drag middle American's son's and daughters into the war and when they start returning in body bags and wheelchairs the end of the war will be in sight...

Bringing back the draft is a great idea. The first to be drafted should be Bush's daughters and all the sons and daughters of the neocons who salivated to get a war. If you throw in Mitt's 5 sons and all the kids of elected war hawks, then I'd say, GO FOR THE DRAFT!!! Let their patriotism SHINE!

Are any of you the "standard" draft age or have children/grandchildren that age? I have a son of that age so it disturbs me to see some people almost gleeful about the start up of the draft. Fairness... that's in the eye of the beholder and you should know that total equality won't occur since we can't even have a clean election anymore. The only thing I can see coming out of the draft is a civil war. I think it is one of those things that would tip the scales. Sorry, I'm selfish, I just don't want my son sacrificed for it.

I like Sen. Edward's suggestion that we have young people choose from several choices on how to serve the country. It can range from military service, some sort of national infrastructure corps, peace corps, etc. Every young person will give 2 years of selfless service to this country which will build allegences to and a feeling of ownership in our nation. I think that In order to attract better qualified military recruits, we must increase pay, improve our military hospitals, and increase after service benefits for those who choose to join the military.
Should we reinstate the draft, absolutely. On the model suggested above. Should we force our children to go to a horrendous war which none of us want our children to go to. I don't think so. Except of course, Bush's kids and those offspring of the people in Congress who voted to go there.

Get real, TW. Rich kids don't get drafted. They'll just bring the National Guard back home and park them there. The only rich kids you see in the Army are ones who volunteer. But for this occupation? Not likely.

Bushco knows that a draft would energize the public against the occupation. I know people call them stupid, but actually they just have other priorities and don't really care about fallout as long as they get their way - which they have been doing.

The last line sums up whats happening right now....

King: Hey, Taylor, how in the fuck you get here anyway? You look educated.
Chris Taylor: I volunteered for it.
King: You did what?
Chris Taylor: I volunteered. I dropped out of college, told 'em I wanted the infantry, combat, Vietnam.
Crawford: You volunteered for this shit, man?
Chris Taylor: Believe that?
King: You's a crazy fucker, giving up college?
Chris Taylor: Didn't make much sense, I wasn't learning anything. I figured why should just the poor kids go off to war and the rich kids always get away with it.
King: Oh, I see, what we got here is a crusader.
Crawford: Sounds like it.
King: Shiiit, you gotta be rich in the first place to think like that. Ever'body know, the poor are always being fucked over by the rich. Always have, always will.

To jazz : "The only thing I can see coming out of the draft is a civil war." I would say that would be fair blowback for the US causing civil war in Iraq or in fact in any of the countries that the US has invaded or the CIA has sponsored in the last 100 years.

Fairness unlike beauty is not in the eyes of the beholder(ie) it is not open to our interpratation.

Is it fair that you or your son are sufficiently wealthy to , by choice , refraim from volunteering to stay fed , clothed and educated ? Check out army-recruitment demographic-targets . In case you didn't know they are poor neighbourhoods , public schools and state universities and community colleges.

Reinstating the draft is called levelling-the-playing- field . It may not be perfect but it is fairer than the present , recruitment tactics.

Are you so dim-witted to actually think that all the pro-draft responders are ghoulishly salivating at the death of your son.

Relax a little . Selective Service with the present admin. and congress ( small cases intended ) is not going to happen and if it did , your son would have some choices :defer , defer...like other "patriots" , flee to Canada , take it on the chin like Ehren Watada or any other avoidance strategy that the both of you could come up with.

O btw , have you expressed your vehemant revulsion with the occupation to congressperson , senator and president and marched in any of the anti-war rallies.

The strongest supporters for the draft are mothers of dead servicemen . Kinda puts your plea for no-draft out in la-la land , doesn't it.

You will draft my boys over my dead body.

I agree with all of the above but would like to add some personal observations from the Vietnam era. Being half Native American I was exempt from the draft. (This was in the days when the USA at least made an attempt to
abide by the Geneva Accords which prohibits the conscription of members of a "Domestic Dependant Nation"----which is what the US Tribes are considered by international law) I joined the USMC---------the second oldest volunteer force in the US Military behind the Navy. None of my Native American Relatives were drafted but two died in service in Vietnam. None of my Anglo relatives were drafted. The draft impacted the lives of thousands of young men (young women were not legible) some left for Canada or other sanctuary...others like Mr. Bush and Cheney and so many others who are in power now, avoided service by either using "connections" or by not having the lottery number (usually the Date of Birth) drawn. It was either a lottery, corruption, or fleeing the country that determined service outside of the draft or volunteering.
The draft during the Vietnam era was a failure
because it was not administered fairly.

Bring back the draft with suggested changes.
a. No lottery, when a US citizen turns eighteen they are----drafted----MANDATORY SERVICE FOR ALL...........
b. No deferments* except physical or mental.
Everyone else serves their two years. "Mandatory Service"---for all--period.
c. Two years of service earns two years of school at state Universities' expense, who in turn are reimbursed by the Fed Gov. (If we can spend billions on "bringing Democracy to others"---even when they do not seem to want it---- like Vietnam or Iraq ---then billions would be wiser spent on our own soldiers.)
* If young Mr. or Ms. Smith are in college/university acceptance programs then they may be allowed to finish their degree, and apply to OCS, or serve as an enlisted person-- but they would not be able to avoid Mandatory Service. Conscientious objectors would be allowed to serve in "non-combat" positions but the rule should be ; "Mandatory Service "----for ALL.
If after the two year Mandatory Service they wish to join the peace corps or some other organization---- then they will be better experienced and able to offer a much more valued service. They can also earn more college/university payments with this type service----but only after they served in the Army draft.
Service in a Church or other similar organization would offer no deferments. One example is the Mormon Church's required two years of Missionary Service from it's young people. They would still be required to serve the US Army---Mandatory Service requirements. Whether this was prior to the Missionary service or after. The same would apply to any and all other members of religious orders. No deferments for any other reasons than listed above.
I have studied international Law and have learned that the only "just war" is a war of "National Defense" which is not to be confused with a "War of Defense of National Interests"-----such as Vietnam and Iraq , as well as every other conflict the USA has been involved in since WW2............
How soon do you think we would be involved in any more of these illegal, costly, pointless wars of aggression when EVERYONE's son or daughter could be in harms way.
If the Bush twins were active duty military or draft age----how important would those WMDs in Iraq have been----even if they actually had existed?
The all volunteer Army (the Navy ,Marine Corps and Air Force have always been volunteer) is a success. In fact too successful. It is a very convenient "tool" to use by either a "Rogue President", or a Rogue Congress.
When your soldiers lives are as cheap as Mr. Bush and the war supporters have shown them to be to them, then perhaps making them more expensive is most likely the solution to such waste.

How much more expensive can a soldiers life be than when it is one of your own children's .

No figures exist as to how many people the USA
"collateral damaged" while being "liberated from Communism"---------- HOWEVER

Over fifty thousand Americans died in just three years in the "Korean Conflict"-----and thousands still posted on the borders for "defense against the North"----little was decided, much was wasted.

Almost sixty thousand Americans died in Vietnam, yet Vietnam has existed without Democracy--since 29 April 1975----and has done very well without the Americans------- thank you.

Communism has fallen apart all over the world, but the USA can find time to do BIG BUSINESS with Communist China----go figure.

Now, "world terror" and "Radical Islam"----are the NEW "monsters under the bed"------
Not many would have been so willing to send their own children off to fight those "monsters" if a Mandatory Service Law were in place--------
Human Nature is very predictable.

Yellow Horse

A draft will make the willfully ignorant middle America wake up and pay attention to the war we're in and why we're there. It might cause us to demand an end to it when we know our own precious babies could be sent to die for someone else's enrichment. I don't think people would acquiesce as easily when they know the buck could stop with a military funeral in their own family.

I don't think any Amerian would avoid a draft that was based on legitimacy, but this LIE of a scenario will bring rioting in the streets if need be. That in fact may be what this admin wants; it would be THE subterfuge to take Americans minds off of the fact that this administration is the cause of a global economic melt-down.

Yes a draft would split this country and boy would it... but first off, who wants that? Secondly (by the way) has it occured to anyone that a draft now, would be necessary for a war with Iran? Yeah. So what wrangel that says the draft would end the war. Oh really? Why is that? That split? They'd combat that split with another and far bigger war. Ask yourselves why do they need a draft when we should be leaving iraq. A draft eases the pressure to leave and... we'd best consider what else they could do with it. You'd best ask yourselves that because it's real. You only hope (based on wrangel's deceptive quote) that it would 'end' this war because the real reason they want a draft is that 'they' can't start a war with iran anymore without one.

pack yer bags fellas, kiss the misses/fellas goodbye (the misses are invited to come along nowadays if you want to join in the fun it should be rollicking good times!!!!)

who's with me?? come on y'all - good times?!! bombs bursting(or whatever they do now)in air. . .the flag waving on high!!!sleeping out under the stars in the nuclear haze.

time for us to become the greatest generation ever that ever was and ever will be!!!!!

all ahil the power of not have a choice.

reinstating the draft = the end of the iraq war.

thought i was the only one to realize that.

cheney, i dare you.

I agree: we need a draft. If we had the draft, I doubt we would be in Iraq today.

Peace Warrior,
Your use of anti-female slurs ("sluts") only undermines your argument and paints you as an absurd moral extremist.

"...and Bush has made it clear that he doesn't think it's (a draft) necessary."

What else does do we need to know?

Peace Warrior,
If you are a "breed" then you are a brother. So brother, you don't seem to be able to read very well, or at least comprehend
very well. My "piece" expressed remorse, but also that I had learned from the experience.

What I say is worth nothing unless one wishes to learn from the mistakes of another.
My error was in believing what I was taught, and acting accordingly------------

I NOW believe what I have LEARNED-----------and act accordingly.

My "soul" (are you sure that souls' exist) suffers little after thirty two years, and I have been successful in convincing several young men and women from serving in this war--
as well as all of the others since Vietnam. A direct result of my own experiences.

Perhaps you could share your secret(s) of "perfection" with the rest of us? "Tainted Souls" or otherwise.

You might wish to study the difference between a Marine and a Soldier.
Also keep in mind that "ignorance" can be remedied with "knowledge".........you might wish to try that remedy; it could change your life, and only in positive ways.

Yellow Horse

In Vietnam, it took a couple of years for the troops to start fragging officers. If you reinstate the draft, it will begin happening from day one.

I hear that the GOP have alreay started the "Rush Limbaugh Anal Cyst Registration Program" for their kid's

Why do we need another draft? The poor people's draft is already in place. Many fine people have made a nice piece of change, up to 20k and 40k on the fast track to Iraq. And then there are incentives to get others to enlist - 2k a pop. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

The draft is involuntary servitude, also known as Slavery.

I believe that a universal draft is a good idea in theory, but not in practice. There should be some kind of SURPRISE(don't say what it is really for, since some people might answer differently) questionaire sent out to all draft-eligible citizens of this country to find out what people REALLY think about this "War on Terror". This will "weed out" the non-true-believers/people lacking "patriotism" who may poison the morale of the armed forces

1) Staying in Iraq is vital to U.S interests

2) The U.S should bomb Iran or at least very seriously consider this option since they are interfering in both Iraq and Afghanistan against our interests

3) The U.S should fight wars on behalf of Israel; in fact, Israel and the U.S share identical interests

4) God talks directly to Bush and/or Bush truly is doing everything he is doing with the best interests of the U.S in mind

5) The people of the Middle East should feel grateful for the U.S spreading democracy into their region, and there is no logical, legitimate reason at all for anyone in the Middle East to hate, or at least oppose U.S policies

Anyone who agrees with 4 or more of the above statements should be drafted(along with children of politicians).

"You might wish to study the difference between a Marine and a Soldier."

Er, what is that exactly? What, did someone say "Semper fi"?

Rinstate the draft -- are you people nuts? You better believe neofascist would make it work, if it were ever allowed. People would die, the war wouldn't end. A draft is conscripted slavery, period. There is no rationalizing that.

What is it about weekends when the lefty brainiacs take a snooze and the quasi-rightists come out to play?

The reason there is a difference in the intensity of the anti war movement now in comparison to the Vietnam War is that they drafted people that didn't want to go to the Vietnam War. The exception were the people with the rich boy's way out (Bush, Cheney, Rove). Establish the draft now for Iraq and I could predict protest marches in the streets, if not riots.

The bottom line is that they are running out of volunteers for their quagmire. Because Bush abused the National Guard and reserves in the process, their recruitment has flat lined.

If we brought our troops home and gave the military a change to regroup without the Iraqi quagmire being an issue, recruitment would go up.

If the draft is reinstated, we need to draft from the Bush, Cheney and Rove extended families first.

Bring on the draft! But don't forget the loopholes for the sons and daughters of the wealthy & powerful.

Lieutenant Douglas Lute, in charge of coordinating the US war effort in Iraq, said, "Oink, oink, oink, look at my double chin, as long as I get my face into the trough often enough, who cares, blah, blah, blah..."

THEY ARE ALL PIGS.

The US has 700 military installations across the globe.

What in the hell so these people do? What do they create?

at this moment in time, there is no way in hell they'll reinstitute a draft. military moral is sunk (despite the cheerleading in the MSM); most people are against this war, and bushco knows that at this moment, a draft is politically impossible.

unless...

when "iran" stages a terrorist action against the Homeland or some other provocation, they'll have their excuse, and many americans will jump for joy to get back at the dirty persians.

you people advocating a draft as a way to equalize the cost of going to war are nuts. you want to cycle more people thru the military industrial machine as a way of neutralizing war? further militarization of society as a way to peace? that's insane. you are asking for more war, not less.

as others said, conscription is a form of slavery.

I guess I'm a little confused about the underlying reasons as to why we need a draft. There's a supply-side and a demand-side of warmaking. My father, uncles, etc. all served in the US armed forces -- it was just a matter of duty. I nearly joined ROTC myself. If my community was threatened by forces contrary to democracy and freedom, I'd proudly defend.

But the fact of the matter is that Bush's mideastern adventures aren't believable as threats to the US. If it was Al Qaida, then why didn't he finish Afghanistan before marching on to Iraq (no appearent connection) or widening his war yet further with Iran. Vietnam, too, was absolutely no threat to the US -- the real threat was in sending thousands of young Americans to die there.

There's a fine line between a military to defend, and a military to expand empire. Bush and his successors need to explain how empire helps the man on the street here.

I wouldn't mind seeing a draft similar to what Rangel has proposed... not one kind of deferrment is allowed for any reason and EVERYONE has to serve, male and female rich and poor. No distinction should be made with test scores either. Half of your service should be in a combat unit. Neither Clinton or Bush would like this law. Rangel's does have an interesting caveat though which I'm sure would be used discriminatorily - that is you can serve in Americorp or the Peace Corp - which is where the rich white sons of Senators and Supreme Court Justices will go.

Here is a better alternative - All draftees will have 3 choices - serve in one of the following; any military branch, or Americorp or Peace Corp.

Everyone who makes it to age 18 has until 25 years old to sign up for their tour of service. Failure to do so would be a felony with 10 year minimum sentence with no fines available as a way out of doing the time.

Military option - A minimum 5 year contract, with minimum 2 years active duty with one year in a combat unit.

Americorp option - A minimum 10 year contract with a minimum of 4 years active duty with 2 years spent in disaster relief areas.

Peace Corp option - A minimum 10 year contract with a minimum of 4 years active duty with 2 years spent in disaster relief areas.

National Guards will no longer be deployed overseas and will resume their mission to Guard the nation AT HOME. This is what the National Guard was created to do. Reservists can be activated for combat duty providing Congressional approval has been obtained prior to doing so. Active duty personnel would be used to conduct all military combat operations. That is how the military was set up to operate in the first place - why Bush went into the Texas Air Guard and not the Reserves!!

In case you're wondering, I was supporting such a draft BEFORE Americorp was even created and before I ever thought there would be.

Maybe then we would begin to see more young people with a concept of what it means to serve without class exceptions or exemptions like Clinton, Gore, Bush and Cheney (who used all 5 deferrments to avoid serving the country during Vietnam) used to avoid service during war.

US Warfare:
Corporate and Government "people" and institutions in puruit of power devote trillions of dollars to promoting and conducting warfare.
Evidence: Look at their spending priorities
Evidence: Look at their foreign policy
Evidence: Look at their ostensible purpose: promotion of peace.
Look at the actual consequences: Shia-Sunni power struggle in Iraq and regionally, civil war, 1 million dead iraqis, 4 million refugees, loss of all basic services, widespread suffering. Was this not anticipated? It was.

Look now at the likely true purposes: American control over energy rich middle east as we approach peak oil.

Policy in Iraq: establish chaos and necessity of large long-term American military presence, provoke a civil war and Al Qaida infestation Iraq. Ultimately American control is impossible without war against Iran as well. Sunni Saudi's corrupt American-allied monarchy opposes Iranian control of Shia dominated Iraq. Isreal also opposes Iranian control. The real threat from Iran is that they will sell oil for Eurodollars, or to China or to the so called non-aligned countries.
The US government has committed to a strategy of military domination of persion gulf oil resources. This policy required invastion and occupation of Iraq and may require destruction of Iran as a force in the region. This will cause a severe strain on military resources and a truly enormous terrorist security threat against the people of the US. If our government is going to get away with this they will need more suppression of dissent and very possibly a military draft. They also need the Democrats to come on board or they need to steal another election. The corporations are helping to limit the candidates available for serious consideration to people who will continue to pursue military domination over middle eastern oil resources.

Those of you who have sons and daughters of draftable age: have them join a Quaker church NOW. (Or Jehovah's Witness, or any other historically pacifist religious organization). Do it NOW. Conscientious objector status has to be established prior to a draft in many cases. The Quakers are more than happy to help anyone who wants to make sure they are legally covered on this.

I agree with the posters that a draft would get Americans out of their armchairs in a hurry and probably get the war ended very quickly. Might even prevent irreparable (read: nuclear) strikes on Iran. These are good things. The point is that we don't want to sacrifice anybody's kids, that too many kids have been sacrificed for a bum cause already. But nothing we've done so far has made the sacrifice stop.

Those of you whose knee-jerk reaction is "Not my kids!" are pathetic. Don't you think the parents of the 3,700 dead and tens of thousands wounded thought EXACTLY THE SAME THING???? How come you get to be special? Or do you only care about your own? Think all those who have been killed deserved it because they were stupid enough to volunteer?

I can see why you would not want a draft if it might mean putting those you love in harm's way. How many Iraqi mothers and fathers didn't have that choice?

Here is a scenario:

1. Have a vague reference to a 'draft' come out.

2. Deny interest in a draft at this time.

3. Hire more mercenaries as a 'temporary' measure.

4. Continue to lower the standards and request fewer replacement soldiers.

5. Announce that we don't need a draft because of meeting military needs, but we can always consider it in a national emergency.

6. Start another war.

7. Go To step 1.

The apparent blunder of the Iraq war may have been part of a larger plan. Perhaps a plan that contemplates a broader longer war requiring emergency presidential continuity until the war has been won. A well committed hawk as the Democratic candidate might help prevent public awareness of such a nightmare by allowing the illusion of a representative democracy for another 4 years. A supposed Republican victory in '08 is another possibility.

Such a larger plan as described above might benefit from another attack on US soil. A subsequent draft would potentially send 500,000 18-21 year olds to complete basic training and serve in places like Korea and Germany while "volunteer force" troops redeploy into Iraq and Afganistan. There are many ways they could make this palatable to the upper middle class. It would certainly include many waivers for such people. Those who are poor without opportunity and not doing anything better would be ordered to serve their countries in the struggle against global terrorism. The Mainstream media would definitely tow the line. They have already cast their lot in with the rest of the corporate oligarchy.

We must support our troops and help them get out of Iraq.

Bush has now the Democratic Party to start the draft...he and his Republican powers have screwed our military people completely.

A draft will be ugly but it will unite Americans against the war....and force it to an end.

I can't believe I'm hearing all this tacit support for returning to a draft. What could possibly be more opposed to freedom than forcing innocent, and more than often poor, men and women to fight and die the rich man's war overseas, for oil or whatever.

History tells me the draft was an awful idea. Rich people have skirted the draft everytime it was ever imposed; that's how you get chickenhawks like Cheney, Bush and the rest of them. We're the ones who suffer.

How could a draft possibly end the war? Seems to me a draft would only speed up wars and conflicts in the future. Now that the whole American population is game for cannon fodder, they can send all of us by force.

A draft is just plain insanity. Rangel is an idiot. He ought to just shutu up about a draft and just continue his efforts to impeach Bush and end the war. Period. A draft would not be the end; it would be a beginning, a pretty bad one if you ask me. See you all in Canada.

A draft will be a good thing. If enough fat lazy yanks are made to see military service and experience death in mass maybe they will get off their butts and vote for some responsible government.

cobrafifty,

It wasn't the protests of the rich that finally ended Vietnam. It took a middle-class to wake up from apathy, to see that while Vietnam the country (obviously) posed no threat to the "homeland", the spectre of send your son there to kill & be killed was a very real threat indeed. It makes the issue personal to an otherwise ambivalent Middle America.

But having watched the modus operandi with this batch of scoundrels, one must half wonder whether they aren't deliberately straining the US military, to be replaced with a corporate army, or perhaps some real nastiness here in the now more-vulnerable "Homeland". By smearing the noble duty of serving one's country, they'll have fewer recruits -- and have to either reinstate the draft or else argue for more use of private mercenaries: onward march to fascism.