Just a note; it seems these kind of articles don't attract the same kind of attention and endless commentary that impeachment and those darn dimopublicans do. I suppose that is telling in and of itself and reinforces Gonsalves points. Can those of us who are white overcome our guilt, put our fear of saying the wrong thing aside, and discuss how we can tackle color blindness and white privilege?

As a white man married to a black woman, I am aware of my White Master Card every day. For example, if my wife drives alone, she gets pulled over by the police for driving while black. If I ride with her while she drives, nothing happens! Just because race prejudice has gone underground doesn't mean it has gone away. White people have no clue, me included, of what African-Americans go through everyday negotiating work and society, not for what is said as much to them anymore, but because of how others behave toward them.

Thank you for illuminating me with your language of intent versus effect. I applaud good intentions but people do hide behind them when their actions don't produce their planned effect. At times it seems as if when actions don't pan out, those with the good intentions can say they tried and then give up. I'm sure they have a variety of excuses but they are no longer responsible. Thanks for reminding us that we are all responsible for continuted action-especially those of us with privilege- until we reach the desired effects for all people.

Truer words were never spoken (or written). Good job, Sean!

"... in these times when you can be accused of being a 'black racist bigot' for simply daring to question the new PC - 'color blindness.'"

AMEN to that twice! Louis Farrkhan/Elijah Muhammad/the Nation of Islam (McIslam, NOT real Islam) ... these guys are actual black supremacists; they believe ALL whites are "devils" created in a lab by a mad scientist a couple thousand years ago -- so yes, the black community has ITS Religious Right as well ...

http://www.mcn.org/e/iii/adreview.htm

HOWEVER, the fact is that SOME whites are spoiled and don't want to ever deal with anything the least bit uncomfortable, and as a result, they often lump ANY AND ALL black critics of this e-v-i-l system in with Farrakhan and the N.O.I. in the name of sweeping things under the rug, as it were, so they'll feel let off the hook ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something_New_(film)

After a bad day at the office, Brian and Kenya are shopping and she starts telling him about the "black tax." He wonders if maybe she is being a little too sensitive ... She gets angry, asking how are they supposed to have a relationship when she can't talk to him.

... it's quicker, easier, more seductive to simply tell blacks to pull-themselves-up-by-their-bootstraps rather than to vote Kucinich (Obama's an overrated pretty boy and a puppet of the D.L.C.) and tax the rich/cut the military in order to afford a Greenpeace version of FDR's New Deal so that EVERYONE (including and especially poor blacks) can finally have ETHICAL, LIVING WAGE JOBS.

http://coanews.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=1269

http://coanews.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=1541

Until just yesterday (8/6/07), I was drawing portraits for tips (I'm that broke) in front of the Cafe Rivista in Silverdale, Washington. Thing is, the Rivista is in a strip mall next door/connected to a series of military recruiting offices (all four branches are represented). Well, SOMEONE complained about my presence there, claiming that I was "prejudiced" and now I'm banned from the cafe.
Just because you point out the existence of white supremacy/white skin privilege doesNOT mean you're like Farrkhan. Just as pointing out Israel's Human Rights abuses (see Nobel Peace Prize-winnng Amnesty International for details) doesNOT make you anti-Semitic ...

http://www.lasvegascitylife.com/articles/2003/10/01/scorched_earth/fear_no_evil/fearnoevil.txt

Sean,

Excellent piece.

Racism is NOT bigotry or prejudice, or saying disparaging jokes or remarks about a race. Racism is an overarching system for maintaining a political-economic power of one people over another. So anyone who takes advantage of this system can be said to be racist. With this definition in mind, one can see that a black person disliking whites cannot possibly be considered racism, (or so-called reverse racism). Such attitudes confers no power, so how can it be?

I _never_ forget the advantages my white skin give me at the job interview, by the boss, by the landlord, by the real estate agent, by the neighbor, by (especially) the cop, and in stores and restaurants almost every day. I'm not even particularly ambitious or hard working. And I dress sloppy! White privelege greatly eased my way through life and this fact alone makes me unavoidably complicit in racism.

TRUTH can't be argued with. You're right on, Sean; and I love the rabbi's quote: pretty much says it all!

I thought I would never see the above subject, written in this way in the Media, anywhere.

My hats off to you, Mr. Gonsalves

So what can we do? Support reparations and affirmative action? After all, us whites are born with affirmative action (privilege). I work for a university and heard from admissions that the black faculty and staff we have at the university all were well qualified beyond what they needed to be. She said many believe that they came in on the basis of affirmative action (which we don't have anyway), instead they earned their positions with their qualifications. Combating pervasive, erroneous beliefs like that is one place to start.

My African host-daughter complained that nobody ever sat down next to her on the school bus (fortunately she had friends at school). Now I try to sit next to people who don't look like me (okay, I did that before too - I'm against the grain of social expectations in general...).

I think that the points you make are great. Especially the one about how if a black person commits a crime, it's a statement about his race, if a white person commits one it's about the society. ( The fact that all of the kids who shoot their classmates seem to be white teenage boys has not escaped me.)
However, I disagree with your criticism of political correctness. I beleive that the term "political correctness" dpoes not refer to pretending things don't exist, but rather to not disparaging people for what they are. "Political correctness" means not calling women "broads", etc....it means not using derogatory racial terms as well. It is all about treating people with respect. it has nothing to do with pretending that racism doesn't exist, or being afraid to talk about racism.

After the first two cabbies, I would have started getting license plate numbers and company names, then gone to the state attorney general and the NAACP.

Like alanlak I bear a "White Master Card". It's great! No interest! No monthly payments! Best of all, it's absolute proof against identity theft. No dark-skinned person can ever pretend to be me (in person, at least). And no matter what crimes I commit or how bad my finances, I can never, ever lose it.

I agree the term "political correctness" refers to suppression of speech and debate. Where it has gotten out of hand is its exclusive ownership by the right-wing. We need it too. For example, the abolition of slavery was politically incorrect until about 1862. It was politically incorrect to oppose the Iraq war until 2004 or 2005, and in Washington DC it still is. Single-payer government health insurance is politically incorrect. Impeaching Bush et al for war crimes is politically incorrect. Opposing American imperialism is politically incorrect. And using federal resources to reduce poverty is really, really politically incorrect.

"...white-skin privilege - the privilege of not having to pay a racial tax for the criminal behavior of a few who happen to share the same skin color."

That's easily the best clarification of white privilege I've ever seen. Excellent article.

I would add that the popular and shallow "PC" form of "tolerance" is really just another form of "othering," and a treacherously insidious one at that. It takes the crudest possible stereotype of "racists," and conveniently supplies the user with an opportunity to proclaim their inherent superiority -- "I'm not like those people. I'm better than that."

(did someone say "shadow projection"?)

In other words, it's just another form of knee-jerk bigotry. But being so camouflaged in the garb of "tolerance" and "acceptance," it is all the more dangerous to the very people it purports to help.

And it doesn't take much to see how it translates to other minorites and "out-groups." For example, if you will, try taking some of the more general statements in the article, and substitute the word "autistic" in place of the word "black." If you've spent a lifetime being dismissed and harassed on the basis of a "psychiatric" label, then you know what I'm talking about. Now, the usual reaction when one points out this category of injustice is some variant of "Well, but autism is an illness that needs to be treated, and that's totally different."

Is it? First, I know a host of autistics -- and even some of their parents -- who no longer think of autism as a disease to be wiped out. It's one of those odd little outgrowths of having learned to accept yourself as you are. Second, if discrimination is society's first line of defense, in what way does that help anyone, even if they ARE disabled?

And yet, we are expected to believe that everything that is done to us is done "out of compassion" and "for our own good." Sorry folks, but you can't have compassion for someone you don't understand, and you certainly have no grounds to consider yourself qualified to "help" them. That's no better than "tactfully" circumspect formulations of the pernicious notion that blacks "get what they deserve." No matter the smarm in which it is couched, that kind of "awareness" is at best an opiate for the in-group, and at worst, a death-sentence for the target group.

The gold-plated ultra-in-group that now pretentiously calls itself "Autism Speaks," by the way, does not allow actual autistics to serve in any remotely advisory capacity -- their only use for us is as objects of pity and/or fear in their vainglorious fundraising campaigns. Different? Yeah, okay, it's different -- in that the general public swallows the snake-oil, hook, line and sinker. The larger disability culture has, as it's human rights battle-cry, the demand "Nothing about us without us!" But in the case of autism, "well, that's different..."

So try this one on for size: what if both the NAACP and N.O.W. were exclusively directed and staffed by wealthy white males. And what if you, as a black and/or a woman, dared to suggest that you have something essential to contribute in the process of guiding their agenda -- only to be dismissed, ridiculed, or even vilified by those very organizations who purport to have your own "best interests" at heart? Remember, it was not so long ago that the notion of actual women having anything useful to contribute to the study of women's issues was considered ludicrous by the traditional patriarchy. And when any woman dared to speak out against such exclusion...

As one last hint of the crushing parity between autistics and other out-groups, I submit that any black person can fill in the next twist of privileged rhetoric:

"Why are you people so ungrateful?"

*puke*

"Mainstream" society is all about making itself feel all important and warm-and-fuzzy inside, while jealously guarding its collective "right" to remain utterly ignorant to any dissenting point of view. Of this, there can be no more poisonous example than the shadowplay of popular "political correctness" -- it has become the gun-barrel from which in-group power flows.

Sean Gonsalves is one of the best commentators of the American scene--I always look forward to his commentary.

I'm older now, and did some of my growing up in the Deep South, and was fortunate enough to witness the beginnings of the Civil Rights movement and the angry backlash to it. I will never forget the heroism, the hate, the fear and the hope. So much has been forgotten, so much was never experienced by so many young people.

Now, racism, segregation and bigotry have somehow become subject to 'no-talk' rules by the Right, and a vague, unjustified and unearned pride by the Left.

We are standing on the shoulders of giants--Paul Robeson, James Baldwin, William Sloan Coffin, Coretta Scott King, Malcolm X, Fannie Lou Hamer, Robert Kennedy...and I'm very afraid we are losing our ability as a nation to speak the truth, and to see our society as it truly is, without bias, fear and wishful thinking.

There are a few giants here still; Cynthia McKinney and Ralph Nader (I'd like to see them pair up and run for presidency...). They are sticking their necks out for us at great personal risk to themselves.

I agree with the "no-talk" and think it extends to a degree to the left as well. We are very afflicted with colorblindness on the left too after all. Leftists are more concerned than the right with being considered racist and will go to great lengths to avoid having that label placed on them. At least on the exterior.

Anybody want to discuss the environmental movement? It's still mostly white despite black people having been historically more hurt by environmental pollution. Do white environmentalists create an environment that isn't comfortable to black people? Of course there is the matter of "them" coming to "us." When, on rare occasion "we" have come to "them" (on their turf), I have found "them" to be welcoming and inclusive. Is it in part a matter of location?

Great article and lots of good comments. I think people fear what they see as different and so they act on those fears rather than interact and learn.
I feel our job as progrssives is to educate people who claim that racism is conquered in this country. Yes, we no longer have race laws like Jim Crow. But, the more subtle types of racism abounds.
Besides, some of the points already mentioned, one of the scariest things is the way the whole voting rights for minorities is being rolled back in really sneaky and ingenious ways by the Repugs. Almost all the voting fraud in the last several elections was against minorities. Read Armed Madhouse by Greg Palast if you want all the gruesome details.
As Dkmnow points out race is not the only way people get discriminated against, I think poverty plays a huge role in this country as well. The state i live in one of the groups that suffer the most are the people of Appalachia. Their lands and livelyhoods are routinely trashed by the coal companies and the law at all levels of government does nothing to stop it.
I agree with Marikken, environmental racism is a huge issue. I would love to see environmental groups and racial justice groups work together on these issues. They would have a lot of power and should be pushing all canidates to address these issues.
Another, area i find extremely worrisome is the way minorities esp. black men are being incarcerated at such a huge rate with much longer sentences than whites. That certainly is another example of racism but is there something else behind it as well?
We all need to continue to express our outrage on the treatment of minorities in New Orleans. It is so blatant that it seems obvious that the whole thing was planed by the White establishment to drive most of the blacks out of the city. Just two examples, before Katrina there were two evacuation plans offered to the city. One from the University included provisions to evacuate all the people who did not own their own car on public transportation. The second plan only included drivers and was privately financed? Guess which one the city went with? Now the City has barred most of the public housing even though it was barely damaged and plans to tear it down and gentrify.

Great article and insights.
Was, unfortunately, dimmed somewhat by "..the other chick.." text. Excellent to see such solid discussion to follow.

"I'm older now, and did some of my growing up in the Deep South, and was fortunate enough to witness the beginnings of the Civil Rights movement and the angry backlash to it"

You sure have experienced a lot of history in your life, Ascrowflies! I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, but it is still a great read and I'm sure makes many whites feel very uncomfortable as they read it. That's not necessarily a "bad" thing, as we need articles that take us out of our comfort zone.

Anyway, this "angry backlash" against the Civil Rights movement cannot be underestimated in the least. The "angry backlash" is a very powerful political movement in its own right. It is very much with us, just as racism is still with us; indeed, this isn't said often enough in the "liberal media", but this "backlash" is one of the most important pillars of the conservative movement, even if they have toned down their rhetoric just a bit, and have accepted or at least pay lip-service to a few "liberal" positions. It is still here, a very powerful movement, a backlash that in large part put Reagan, George H.W Bush and Shrub into office, and maybe Clinton to a lesser extent. This issue rarely gets addressed anywhere, that this is one of the most powerful weapons of the Republican Party, not just a "thing of the past".

Without the racist vote, Republicans wouldn't be able to win so many elections. This does not mean that all Republicans or conservatives are overt racists. In fact, many are against it, and some Republicans are black. Do these anti-racist conservatives realize that their party would not be able to win national elections without appealing to people they claim to despise? Do they realize or care about how less powerful the Republican Party would be if not for the racists? Yes indeed, this is one of the Republican-conservatives hidden strengths!

"I'm not even particularly ambitious or hard working."

Well I work pretty hard and can't seem to keep my head above water and neither can my sister. I have to help her with her bills now.

My "White Master Card" hasn't gotten me a damn thing. The majority of whites are getting shafted by the same people that are shafting everyone else.

To the people in power, I am white trash. They aren't in my corner.

"it seems these kind of articles don't attract the same kind of attention and endless commentary that impeachment and those darn dimopublicans do. I suppose that is telling in and of itself and reinforces Gonsalves points."

Because they are divisive, and people of all colors are realizing how everyone and their mom is getting screwed.

Whites are not on some tower which blacks are desperately trying to tear down.

I'm not denying racism exists. I don't believe in "color blindness" either. But again to bring up "white privilege" insinuates that white people have some sort of invisible power over everyone else and completely ignores class issues which are FAR, FAR more taboo than issues of race, gender, and sexuality will ever be, which is very convenient for a select few. It fosters resentment, and despite people saying that whites shouldn't feel guilty, it creates guilt, guilt which partly fuels the racism that a lot of whites harbor. And don't we already have enough unneeded tension between working and poor people?

I think people know from these forums that I support reparations and deal with racist morons everyday. I always have. I've ended friendships over it and have distanced myself from family members over it. I have hardly ever been sheltered from the realities of race relations. I'm not from the suburbs or a small town. I will never ever suggest that racism is a thing of the past as it should be. Racial issues weigh on my mind everyday. One thing that breaks my heart more than anything is seeing people at each other's throats over the notion of race. It breaks my heart and also greatly angers me because I know whose interests that sort of thing serves.

But dammit, this is exactly one of the reasons why I am often alienated by the left.

If I have an invisible knapsack, you can have it. It certainly hasn't helped me at all in life. But I suppose that's my fault. After all, the world is "mine" eh?

My father and mother are in or approaching their 60's. They have been working for most of their lives and have little to show for it. If they had some sort of power over anyone based on their race, they must've really dropped the ball. Shame on them.

Go down to the Appalachias and tell those people about "white-skin privilege". I'm sure it'll make them feel a little better about their situation. Go down south and talk to the rural white folks in their trailer parks about it too. Oh wait, I forget, we're supposed to despise them. Conservatives have inner city blacks to hate, so let's us on the left find someone to kick around.

I'm not ignoring race. No one should. Healing the wounds of racism has to be one of our nation's priorities. Again, and I keep saying this, inequality be it due to race, gender, sexuality, or class will be this nation's downfall. Reparations along with a fair living wage, free health care, and free education among other ideas will go a long way towards serving as an antibiotic.

However, fostering identity politics isn't going to do anything except perhaps cause everyone to regress. What the theory of "white privilege" does is make whites out to be culpable, whether or not people say that it doesn't. It does. And it's unfair to the myriad of whites, male and female alike who have been left behind in this country also. The majority of Americans of all colors are struggling. I have known few if any people who haven't.

I am not on a throne and have no power over anyone. And I can't afford to buy a house either. In fact, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain from the empowerment and the bettering of life quality for black people. The theory of of "white privilege" tells white folks that they should be worried when they shouldn't be.

And we wonder why we can't get a lot of working and poor whites on our side and why they get seduced by the right.

I apologize for knee-jerking there. I just get angry when people bring up this issue because I think intentionally or not it hinders solidarity between whites and other groups. That's why I don't like identity politics. I also get peeved when people suggest that I have something that others don't based solely on my race. As if the only reason I have a roof over my head and a job is because I am a white male and everyone who doesn't share my gender and race lives in utter misery.

I may get into this more tomorrow when I'm more calm. It's late, I have had a rough day, and I've been quite angry about many, many things as of late.

Oh yeah, I can't hail cabs in my city either. The only time I've ever caught a cab is when I called one. I'm usually bumming rides and hopping on buses.

Maybe he shouldn't have been wearing his Oakland A's T-shirt in Boston ...

iwarrior, I understand where you are coming from BUT, to deny WSP is foolish. I once thought like you, that my WSP hasn't got me a damn thing until I saw first hand what it gets me in comparison to others. Do a little experiment, have a Black friend call about an apartment, chances are it'll be rented, call back the next day yourself and see if same apartment is still rented. It's very simple to do. My husband (a Black man) and I found this out when we were first getting an apartment together. I finally knuckled under and would only go fill out applications or look at rentals WITHOUT him or we'd be living in a cardboard box. I don't get pulled over for mystery offenses when by myself, I've been pulled over several times with my husband for no apparent reason though. I've never been followed around in a store by security until I went shopping with my husband either, the list goes on and on. Keep believing WSP doesn't exist though if it makes you feel better...

Yeah being pulled over for no reason is so very annoying. I have personally been pulled over for not having a light on my rear license plate, having a blurry windshield, (Wipers don't all ways get the bugs off), doing 37mph in a 35mph, and once because I fit the description of someone they were looking for. I told him "Unless you are looking for a 24 year old Marketing Director, who is in his second year of law school, I'm guessing you have the wrong person."

Cops seem to get so angry when they confront me or anyone of color that has no record, no warrants, good credit and can, some how to their amazement SPEAK PROPER ENGLISH.

If there are any young blacks reading this I know you have had that situation where you are at work and engaging in an intelligent conversation around middle age whites and had someone say to you?

"Wow you are so articulate, or you are so well spoken"

I'm always shocked. What did you think I was supposed to sound like? I wonder if they ever say that same stupid statement to there young white employees.

But I can't blame whites as much as I like, because other blacks are just as racist. Young blacks my age are cursed with self hatred. They think that because you want to be educated that you are "Acting white".

When did being dumb become black and smart become white?

It's tough to get ahead as a young black because at our schools we are not taught finance and putting money away at a young age; or how the world works and how to become successful. I have had an IRA and Mutual funds for a while. But I learned on my own. I knew that I had to have a plan for the future. But only because I new I didn't want to be stuck where I was.

Whites think every young black in the "Hood", should be able to do the same thing. Well I hate to tell you but its lots of whites out there in "Trailers" that can't pick themselves up by their boot straps either.

You become a product of your environment. This is why wealthy people stick together. If one person has money, he can share those tips with other people that might help them become wealthy and so on. But if you are poor you can only share tips about things you know about: how to steal to live, how to sell to live, how to fight for your life, how to get over on people so you can come out ahead.

If we could only get people to understand the differences there would be alot less hate.

~Future~

"Wow you are so articulate, or you are so well spoken"

This reminds me of a website that is a spoof on all the racial hypocrisy that surrounds us. I hope it doesn't offend anyone; I thought it pretty hilarious myself.

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

Marikken,

That web-site is great, I couldn't give enough examples in my post but the site took care of it for me thanks for posting.

"Your not like other black people" !!!!

Thats one of my favorites

Good Times Good Times.

~Future~

FUTURE.ME and IWARRIOR good honest postings. Class delineation added to race added to gender, these ism divisions have been so long cultivated that most take them for granted. The programming that accompanies these artificial divides is so powerful that a lot of people fail to question the rationale behind these ways and means to divide everyday people who do share common interests. Those that wish to keep the masses manageable have invented a great many devices to do so. The most insidious modern device is the "war on drugs" because as others have related, it ends up incarcerating an extremely high percentage of persons of color. Once they get out they carry the stigma of being felons and have a much harder time of getting a job. It is desperation and despair, added to poverty and illiteracy that fuels crime in ANY nation. Those who have wisely spoken of working on these issues have usually been said to coddle terrorists or want to provide therapy instead of tough love. Keep in mind the US is a very punitive and aggressive nation. How often would its authoritarians rather use the whip than compassion, for all the talk about Jesus? (I know there ARE enlightened persons like Dr. King who was TRULY moved and inspired by the words of Christ; but I find such persons the exception.)
At present the U.S prison system has affected a veritable end run around slavery. Strong inmates, many of color, work in industries for pennies on the dollar. This is what capitalism thrives on. Can this nation return to a more compassionate capitalism? I think weather events, the economy imploding due to foreign debt, the waste on this war and other factors are going to shape up as another great depression that eventually factors into another attempt at the New Deal. MANY will be put to work rebuilding this nation's collapsing infrastructure. I see these things in about 10-15 years... getting there is NOT going to be pretty.

I'm sure that being harassed by cops happens more often to
African-Americans, but it doesn't happen ONLY to African Americans. I'm a white middle-aged guy. In the past year I have been pulled over for not STOPPING LONG ENOUGH (that was a new one)at a stop sign. I was pulled over for my 7 year old WAVING
(that was another new one, he thought he was giving him the finger)and finally, for having a headlight out 30 minutes before Dark. (I turn them on 30 minutes before dark as I am supposed to). Years ago when I was in college, I was dragged out of my car at the Dairy Queen (leaving my date in shock) by three cops with drawn guns and thrown on the ground with a knee on my neck. It turns out that someone with the SAME COLOR CAR as mine had robbed some place. When told I wasn't the guy, they piled into their cars and left me laying there-with no apologies. I guess I just look guilty.

Good article! And more talking to gain more understanding is necessary.

As a white hetero-sexual male – the very top of the food chain as far as privilege goes – I am always trying to learn more about what I can do to fight this bullshit. Because that is what it is. Bullshit. Racial supremacy is bullshit. It's predicated on lies, manipulation, ignorance, and violence. And though all of these are a bullshit foundation to build a belief system upon, they have very, very, real consequences for very, very real people.

Privilege doesn't automatically mean you're rich. Or that you always get a cab. Or that you always have it better. Everyone has their own circumstances. To say that because I am not a CEO, nor are my parents, means that white's do not have privilege, is very short sighted. After all, there are 6.5 billion people on the planet, and sorry, but everyone doesn't fit into a neat little category.

So, in general, in the USA, people of color have gotten, and are getting, the shaft. That doesn't mean that no white people are getting the shaft. It just means that per capita, blacks and native Americans eclipse the strife of the struggling white population.

I have lived on the streets. I have eaten out of dumpsters. I am white. Does it follow that because I had it bad, that whites don't have privilege? Of course not.

It's the rule that is being discussed in the article and after. Not the exception. And as a rule, in general, it is my understanding that most African Americans have many, many stories of some kind of racism, bigotry, discrimination, and/or prejudice aimed at them from whites.

Whites have historically –in America - been the enemy of the black person. Yes, enemy. Kidnapper, torturer, slave-owner, rapist, exploiter, murderer………does this sound like a history of kinship? So, if a black man looks at me with trepidation, I need to understand why that is. No, I didn't do those things. But if it weren't for slavery, America would probably never have become so rich – all that work being done, profits being made, empires being created…..and for free! And I do benefit. Even if it's seems insignificant, I do benefit. Even if it's as seemingly small as being deferred to in a conversation, or being waited on first while standing in line. I have no understanding of what it's like to always be waited on last, or to constantly be interrupted because apparently somebody else is being viewed as more important than me. So I'm learning all the time. Mostly I can listen. But to shout back, "Hey! I never did anything to you! I don't have it so good either!" Is neither an attempt at hearing, nor being empathetic. It's not about me. It's about something much bigger than me. It's about something systemic/systematic.

One thing I've learned that I can do, is to not let whites get away with saying stupid shit (and hopefully folks don't let me get away with the stupid shit I say….it happens). Each time I hear the clichés – and they're completely generic….one wonders if they are just parroting what they hear on Fox or from Rush - I try to address them. There really is very little intellectualism happening in these:
I don't see color.
I treat everyone as in individual.
They bring it on themselves.
They think society owes them.
They're lazy.
Their neighborhoods are the most violent crime ridden…..
Why can't they forget about the past and move on?
……Ad naseum on up until you hear the really stupid shit that degenerates into biological differences that I won't go into because it's embarrassing to admit that people actually give these merit.

Just another illustration that works well for me is to ask a white person what the "white experience" is. Just ask, "what is it like to be white?" Mostly, you'll get blank stares. If anyone is honest, they will most likely concede that they have never thought about it. But people of color have to. Everyday. In America. The fact that most whites will never consider what it means to be white is convincing evidence of privilege. It's the privilege of never having to consider your race or skin color as an perceived obstacle in daily life, that makes it privilege.

Must I say it again? IN GENERAL. That's what makes it a rule. Obviously there are exceptions. I have almost no patience left for people who say, "I've never experienced
what you're talking about. Therefore it isn't like that." This is almost identical to the method of thinking that denies racism all together. "Well…I've never met a racist so….."

As a white guy, I have tons to learn. To be silent is to be complicit.

Only conservatives are racist.

Great post punkassbeeotch! Have you been reading Robert Jensen by any chance?

So.... we all need to recognize white privilege.

While it's a good point, that isn't really a new concept. And I'm surprised by responses on here heralding this article as though it's novel and groundbreaking. We've been talking about white privilege for decades, and white people have yet to give up their privileges.

Articles and discussions of how the working and poor classes of ALL races can take concrete steps to work together would be more useful than talking about abstract notions of making us all "responsible."

Mairikken-
Thanks! No. But I read alot of Derrick Jensen,

Wilson-
I'll be sure to only post new/novel information here from now on. Of course I'll have to email everyone privately to find out if it's new to them first. Or does it only have to be new and novel to you in order for it to pertinent?

"We've been talking about white privilege for decades, and white people have yet to give up their privileges."

That's not true. If they didn't give up some privilege over the years, I'd still be forced to drink from a coloreds only water fountain. Besides ...

http://coanews.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=1541

5) The price of liberty is eternal vigilance and when you forget history it repeats itself. This means there will NEVER be a point in which whites will be let off the hook. You'd never ask a Jew to let down his/her guard when it comes to anti-Semitism, so ...

punkassbeotch wrote:

"Must I say it again? IN GENERAL. That's what makes it a rule. Obviously there are exceptions. I have almost no patience left for people who say, "I've never experienced
what you're talking about. Therefore it isn't like that." This is almost identical to the method of thinking that denies racism all together. "Well…I've never met a racist so….."

As a white guy, I have tons to learn. To be silent is to be complicit."

----------------

You nailed it! As a white woman once married to a black man (now deceased) and with whom I had/have one (now an adult) child, I must say that I can't count the number of times when white family, friends, and colleagues did not or would not believe me when I'd tell them of the gawd-awful, hateful, racist encounters and experiences we had. From minor to threatening, I had never experienced such contempt or hate (in public, from strangers) in my life, until then... And for the record, I still don't experience similar things when I am alone, or with only white people. But, without exception, my friends, family, or colleagues would tell me that I was *exaggerating*, *imagining*, *being paranoid*, or some such other denial shit! Until -- in the case of family or friends...and when in the company of my child (even as an infant!!!) and/or husband --- they experienced/witnessed it themselves!

Unfortunately, they too had been as naively ignorant (or ignorantly naive?) as I had been before I first started dating a black man. All of us, because we were white (and by extension, sheltered and yes privileged) and had not experienced or witnessed racism before, we all thought that there was no racism, particularly here in Canada.

I'm only going back about 25 years btw. But goddamnit if it still isn't the same among too many other white people!

Plenty of white folks who still don't have a clue about racism, I'm certain that some would be indignant, shocked, even angry to discover it. And then there are the cold-hearted bigots/racists, those who just don't give a f***.

So the challenges are multi-tiered. There's certainly hope and the possibility for change among people that care. As for the others, I have no idea if there's any chance of them ever changing/caring about others.

And yes, there are layers of discrimination against others too, including sexism, ageism, and socio-economic discrimination against poor folks, etc, etc. And, none of it is acceptable. None of it should be tolerated! But this conversation is primarily about racism and the legacy of of white supremacy, which is enormous.

And so I'd like to focus on the topic at hand....The legacy of white supremacy, racism is insidious and complicated, sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's obvious. In any case it's still destroying countless lives more than a hundred years after Slavery. And remember too, that it's only a few decades since Apartheid (segregation) in America was abolished by law! So, there is nobody but nobody who can tell me that *white privilege* doesn't exist. It bloody well does.

Paraphrasing the Rabbi who was quoted above, I don't feel guilty, but I sure do feel responsible....for All of my brothers and sisters...One family...One human race.

Btw, I don't think that responsibilty is an abstract notion, as Wilson suggested. And neither do I feel that white people have to necessarily "give up their privileges". How about we all just begin by treating every single person with respect, equal respect? That would be a damn fine start, if you ask me. And a relatively simple and practical thing to do each and every day.

----

Must say that Sean Gonsalves' essay is superb. And every bit of it rings true, in my experience. Thanks for it.

White privilege permits some white folks, ususally the most privileged, to soothe their consciences and to compensate some non-white folks, usually the most privileged, by justifying discrimination against less privileged white folks.

If you talk the talk, nothing says you have to walk the walk. You can pat yourself on the back and leave it at that. That's white privilege. But if you truly want to walk the walk, give your job, your home, your car, your kid's diminishing opportunities in American life to the minority person, family or organization of choice. Mooning over white privilege is the b.s.'ers way out. The only way to put your money where your mouth is is to pay up. Make your check out to Sean. I'm sure he'll make good use of it.

"iwarrior, I understand where you are coming from BUT, to deny WSP is foolish. I once thought like you, that my WSP hasn't got me a damn thing until I saw first hand what it gets me in comparison to others. Do a little experiment, have a Black friend call about an apartment, chances are it'll be rented, call back the next day yourself and see if same apartment is still rented. It's very simple to do. My husband (a Black man) and I found this out when we were first getting an apartment together. I finally knuckled under and would only go fill out applications or look at rentals WITHOUT him or we'd be living in a cardboard box. I don't get pulled over for mystery offenses when by myself, I've been pulled over several times with my husband for no apparent reason though. I've never been followed around in a store by security until I went shopping with my husband either, the list goes on and on. Keep believing WSP doesn't exist though if it makes you feel better…"

That's discrimination, not privilege. There are laws against that as well. And someone must be renting to black people, because I see black renters in my neighborhood all the time.

I am not denying that racism and discrimination exist. What I am denying is that I am somehow culpable and benefitting from it at the expense of others. Most white people have no power over anyone and are getting stepped on like most other people.

It also insinuates that if racism ends, my quality of life as a white man will be diminshed. I don't believe it that to be true. In fact, it's a ploy used by the right-wing to get whites to vote against your best interests. Shaming and indicting each other just plays into the hands of those people truly in power. And they're not looking out for me either.

People who believe in the idea of white privilege wittingly or not encourage self-loathing amongst whites and encourages blacks to resent whites. None of which is productive.

Yeah, I've known people who were privileged. Most of them had money, and not all of them were white either.

Again, I deal with racism everyday. I almost got into another fight with someone at work who was using racial slurs and slandering blacks. I've gone to management about the racism where I work.

Am I privileged when I get harassed and threatened by other whites for not endorsing their politics racial and otherwise? Am I privileged with all of this racial hubris weighing on me? Am I privileged when at times I feel as if blacks and other groups resent me because I'm white.

I don't mean to pull a "poor-me" thing card out of my pocket, as I know things could be worse, but as a white person who has never been wealthy I often feel as if I get it from all sides.

To the white conservative professional guy, I feel like white trash. To the black person, I feel like that white MF'er. I don't always feel that way, and I know that not all of those types of people look down on me and/or actively resent me. As if I DESERVE my lot in life.

No, you can't change your race, but it's not that easy to climb out of the hole poverty or near poverty either. It's not as if I've ever been handed anything on a silver platter. If I have, well I must be a real loser then.

Maybe one reason this angers me is because I see parallels to what goes on over on the right side of the street. Conservatives use "crime" as a codeword for "black". These white guys shake their fists at inner city blacks, blaming them for urban decay and high taxes.

Hell, I'm afraid at times on these forums to tell people what kind of music I like, and I've never felt that way before. And while this might sound superficial, it's an important part of who I am.

I went around with someone about this in another thread. In fact, to be totally honest with you guys, I was reluctant to come back to this thread for fear of getting put through the grinder.

I don't mean to offend anyone. I also don't want to come off as being angry towards blacks. I'm just angry at people who pit others against one another.

As far as the mainstream media and how they report things, what does one expect? They've been looking for another OJ case to distract and divide for the past ten years. And it's not working all that well, as they keep throwing them up there, and they're not really sticking.

"But if you truly want to walk the walk, give your job, your home, your car, your kid's diminishing opportunities in American life to the minority person, family or organization of choice."

As much as I hate my job and my employer, I'm afraid of I did that, me and my folks would be up the creek. I'm not going to do anyone any good if I'm wondering where I'm going to sleep and what I'm going to eat.

"and white people have yet to give up their privileges."

And what privileges do I have to give up? Again, that insinuates that I'm really gonna get it when all of this discrimination ends, and I really don't think that's true.

"How about we all just begin by treating every single person with respect, equal respect? That would be a damn fine start, if you ask me. And a relatively simple and practical thing to do each and every day."

That's exactly what I try to do everyday. And a lot of the time I get spit on. But I keep doing it. I am not one to go around demeaning others based on their race. I've gotten myself into conflict with others over it my entire life.

"It just means that per capita, blacks and native Americans eclipse the strife of the struggling white population."

But they're all still struggling? They're all in the same frying pan.

"I have lived on the streets. I have eaten out of dumpsters. I am white. Does it follow that because I had it bad, that whites don't have privilege? Of course not."

Then how did you end up on the street?

"It's the rule that is being discussed in the article and after. Not the exception. And as a rule, in general, it is my understanding that most African Americans have many, many stories of some kind of racism, bigotry, discrimination, and/or prejudice aimed at them from whites.

Whites have historically –in America - been the enemy of the black person. Yes, enemy. Kidnapper, torturer, slave-owner, rapist, exploiter, murderer………does this sound like a history of kinship?"

Well see, that to me is an example of self-hatred. Not that you don't have a point. In fact, one problem with race relations in this country imo, is that people don't look at why people of different races resent one another so.

"So, if a black man looks at me with trepidation, I need to understand why that is."

I can get that, at the same time, it doesn't mean it's ok for him to feel that way about you either, and it's not ok for me to feel that way towards him. I can understand why a Arabic terrorist would hate the US, but I don't condone it either. It's monolithic thinking.

"No, I didn't do those things. But if it weren't for slavery, America would probably never have become so rich – all that work being done, profits being made, empires being created…..and for free!"

I haven't seen any of that money, and I wouldn't want it if it were offered to me.

"And I do benefit. Even if it's seems insignificant, I do benefit. Even if it's as seemingly small as being deferred to in a conversation, or being waited on first while standing in line."

I can't say that I have ever been deferred to in a conversation for being white nor have I been waited on first in line for being white.

"I have no understanding of what it's like to always be waited on last, or to constantly be interrupted because apparently somebody else is being viewed as more important than me."

I do.

"So I'm learning all the time. Mostly I can listen. But to shout back, "Hey! I never did anything to you! I don't have it so good either!" Is neither an attempt at hearing, nor being empathetic. It's not about me. It's about something much bigger than me. It's about something systemic/systematic."

I have been empathetic. If I weren't empathetic, I wouldn't have the politics I do. What I'm feeling is a slap in the face. I have no one under my bootheel here, but I am being made to feel as if I do, and am complicit in it all. No one's opening the door to economic opportunity to me either.

Yeah, I can sit there and listen to black people talk about what rotten things white people did and said to them. And then I can go to some other site and read messages from whites talking about rotten things black people did to them. It's tit for tat, and it gets us nowhere.

Things are tough all over. I'm not going to deny that blacks have had a very different experience than whites and other groups. But am I privileged because I didn't experience what they have?

"Wow you are so articulate, or you are so well spoken"

I've never said that to anyone, let alone a black person.

"It's tough to get ahead as a young black because at our schools we are not taught finance and putting money away at a young age; or how the world works and how to become successful. I have had an IRA and Mutual funds for a while. But I learned on my own. I knew that I had to have a plan for the future. But only because I new I didn't want to be stuck where I was."

I didn't become aware of those things until I was in my early 20's. I didn't learn it in school either.

"Whites think every young black in the "Hood", should be able to do the same thing."

I don't think that

"Well I hate to tell you but its lots of whites out there in "Trailers" that can't pick themselves up by their boot straps either."

I'll agree with that.

"I must say that I can't count the number of times when white family, friends, and colleagues did not or would not believe me when I'd tell them of the gawd-awful, hateful, racist encounters and experiences we had."

I have those experiences all the time and have trouble getting people to believe me.

"One thing I've learned that I can do, is to not let whites get away with saying stupid shit (and hopefully folks don't let me get away with the stupid shit I say….it happens)."

I try to do that too. It doesn't always work. Just because you're white doesn't mean other whites want to hear what you have to say. I've been called more names than I care to repeat.

"Each time I hear the clichés – and they're completely generic….one wonders if they are just parroting what they hear on Fox or from Rush - I try to address them. There really is very little intellectualism happening in these:
I don't see color.
I treat everyone as in individual.
They bring it on themselves.
They think society owes them.
They're lazy.
Their neighborhoods are the most violent crime ridden…..
Why can't they forget about the past and move on?
……Ad naseum on up until you hear the really stupid shit that degenerates into biological differences that I won't go into because it's embarrassing to admit that people actually give these merit."

Well I will agree with you there. But are all whites that way? I'm not. I've known black people my whole life and have seen stereotypes shattered before my eyes. I've also learned that bigotry cuts many ways. Not all black people have positive attitudes about whites either as evidenced in these very forums. It's as hurtful and counterproductive as anything else.

"Just another illustration that works well for me is to ask a white person what the "white experience" is. Just ask, "what is it like to be white?" Mostly, you'll get blank stares. If anyone is honest, they will most likely concede that they have never thought about it. But people of color have to. Everyday. In America. The fact that most whites will never consider what it means to be white is convincing evidence of privilege."

They're not considering it because they're too busy worrying about how to make ends meet.

I know what it means to be white to some people, and what it unfortunately means is that I can go to hell along with everyone who looks like me.

"It's the privilege of never having to consider your race or skin color as an perceived obstacle in daily life, that makes it privilege."

Well you may have a point there, but that doesn't mean that whites don't face obstacles either.

If people think I am complicit, then whatever. I'll remember that the next time I get called a gazillion names when I mention that I believe in socialism and reparations or when I tell one of the idiots I work with to shut up the next time he says something bigoted. As if I am privileged having all of these things weighing on my mind.

I don't like seeing different races of people at each other's throats. Identity politics and pushing the notion of "white privilege" does just that whether people mean it to or not. Whites get defensive, blacks get angry, then whites get angry, and then here we are blaming each other for the problems we all face. That's what happens most of the time. It makes people angry with one another.

Guilt, self-loathing, and resentment impede progress. You can't empower the black community by telling them that they're all just a bunch of thugs and lazy bums. You're not going to end racism by telling white people that they're all racist whether they know it or not, that their lives are infinitely better than everyone else, that their ancestors were a bunch of monsters, and should therefore be ashamed to be walking the Earth. It makes whites out to be the demon of human history.

And all of that just gives all sorts of ammo and support to guys like Michael Savage, David Duke, Steve Sailer, Brent Bozell, and others of their ilk.

Discrimination is injustice. The lack of injustice does not denote privilege. You are allowed to drive down any city street. You have a right to a job, health care, education, to live in a decent dwelling, a meal, etc.

If you are denied those sorts of things simply because of your race, that is injustice. Privilege has nothing to do with it and suggests that I am getting by on the backs of others among other things. Calling it White Supremacy intimates that I as a white man am on a throne, and I had better be worried because I'm going to get tossed off of it. And when I am, the ground will crumble underneath me.

In other words, it implies that whites NEED to be against things like equality, free healthcare, free education, a living wage, reparations, and other ideas that will lift people up, because if blacks get a leg up, they're gonna walk all over whites.

I do not believe that my quality of life will be diminished when discrimination ends and the lingering effects of slavery and Jim Crow are repaired. If anything, I partly consider myself an ally to Progress because I feel that I have everything to gain and nothing to lose from it. Whites, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, gays, women, men, everyone you can think of would benefit from a TRUE socialist progressive Democracy. Liberals aren't really out to get the majority of people except perhaps those corrupt few that abuse their power and make things tough for the rest of us.

I will never deny that blacks in this country were dealt an especially bad hand in this country. I wouldn't support the idea of reparations if I didn't feel that there was a great evil committed. But imo what those study "whiteness" and such seem to act as if racism is the end-all-be-all of American reality. As if the gulf between rich and poor is entirely racial, ignoring class issues, and thusly alienating millions of people by making it seem as if whites all just have it made and are just purposely and knowingly sitting on everyone else.

Identity politics derailed the Left in the early 90's. I don't want to see that happen again. Because we all saw what happened when it did.

I have resisted racism my whole life. I refuse to be pandered to or made to be afraid of people different than myself. I have reached out to those of other races when others would not. I get lumps in my throat when I hear racial slurs and hear anyone running down other racial and ethnic groups. I have learned time and again that good and bad people come in all colors. I can't bring myself to embrace racism in part because I know that I can't trust people based on the fact that I share their shade of skin. I've had too many non-whites treat me well and too many whites harm me to buy into all of that. I tell the idiots I work with all of the time that I once worked with a crew that was 70% black and barely had any problems with anyone there, yet I work with a bunch of white men, and I am constantly looking over my shoulder based on how many of them have treated me in the three years I have been there. I can see racial inequities. I know they are there. I can't ignore it if I wanted to.

But I walk around in the neighborhood I work in and see two rundown homes. I see a black woman leave one and a white man leave another. I walk around downtown and see a black homeless man on one corner and a white homeless woman on another. At the predominantly black urban high school I attended, I knew affluent black people (one was valedictorian) and white kids who lived in trailers and vice versa of course.

My father grew up in an integrated community. None of the black kids he grew up with were any poorer than he. He was sent to Vietnam to die along with everyone else. And when he made it back alive he was called a "baby-killer" along with the black guys he served with. Oh yeah, he got a job eventually. And then after 13 years, he was laid off and replaced with younger employees who worked cheaper, and our household has never fully recovered from it even though he did eventually work again.

My sister is on public assistance and lives in a HUD property with a bunch of other people. All of the other people she lives with are on some sort of program also. They're also mostly white. I'm not saying that white people are getting it worse than everyone else nor am I saying that blacks don't suffer from this in a disproportionate way. What I am saying is that we are all pretty much in the same boat. Talking about white privilege or complaining about minorities benefitting from Affirmative Action creates mutiny on that boat, which sets us all up to be torpedoed.

This is my theory, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here who holds onto it...

1.Institute a LIVING WAGE. 10 bucks an hour.
2.Universal quality free health care.
3.Universal quality free education including college and trades.
4.Reparations.
5.Legalize all drugs and regulate them.
6.No more corporate welfare.
7.Dismantle the Star Wars program.
8.No more military adventures. Pull all troops out. End war.
9.End NAFTA and GATT.
10.Eliminate the income tax and replace it with the flat sales tax. Or at the very least, make the wealthy pay their fair damn share.
11.Stop sending jobs overseas and importing cheap labor.
12.Forgive third world debt.

Those things will lift up all of those who struggle, regardless of their ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexuality. When we lift everyone up, divisions of class and race will disappear. Criminality will for at least for the most part, die off. Stereotypes will disappear. People will see their fear and resentment fade. There will be no more slums. No more trailer parks except for those who camp for fun. Everyone will have a stake in this country, and people will truly be encouraged, not coerced into working together instead of competing against one another.

Making people watch "The Angry Eye" won't end racism. Having black people watch "Hot Ghetto Mess" isn't going to end the black communities many troubles. Ending capitalism, imperialism, and the military industrial complex imo will. And all of us will see our lives bettered, in the US and around the world.

Well, you've got my vote. Jeezus f'ing christ on a Popsicle stick, you should at least be in law school! That was the most mind-bending commentary redux I've ever witnessed.
My lame reply: Yes, being poor, or in any other out-group can get you as much (or almost as much) pain as too much melanin, BUT the racial take can't be discounted. I agree that as an enlightened white one shouldn't feel guilt, unless you're intentionally exploiting "privilege," however flawed or nuanced you choose to designate that word. I refuse to feel guilt for what moronic pregenerations did. Perhaps a better word would by "sympathy." ??? and more ?. I think, in certain circumstances, if I were a black person in today's America I would go off my frick'n rocker. If I were pulled over for the shade of my skin I would go f'n ballistic. And guess what? -- I'd probably be shot for it. And that really sucks.

Ipenek, good point.

I really want people to understand what I and many others mean by "White Privilege". Its all about a head start on life. And the way the social and corporate world works. The spin that gets put on race in the media. It's almost impossible to not see the effects of this daily.

When slavery was still common place, Whites had wealth and slaves had none.

Thats a pretty big head start in life. So what happens is, today you have several generations of blacks that are still trying to catch up. Each set of parents works as hard as possible to leave just a little more to the next generation. But its not even close to what has been left behind to SOME whites. (Stock, Property, Wealth)

But lets say that 6 or 7 Generations ago a white family owned something(General Store, Land, etc). This gives this family the ability to leave more and more behind each generation. Where in the same time period blacks where not allowed to own anything at all,which takes that same opportunity away. Now when you get to modern times. Even some middle class blacks are working off of what was left behind ( Property, Tradeskill, Knowledge). They try and use this to jump farther ahead then the generation prior.

So if you come from a family that has nothing to leave behind. You have to work twice as hard to "catch up."

Again here is where white privilage comes in. The conditioning of the nation which natually puts people of color at a disadvangte makes it very hard to say "Jump Ahead".

I will use examples that are not extreme to make my point.

Example 1.

two 20 year olds commit the same crime one black male and the other a white male, lets say assault. They both get into a bar fight. They both go to court the judge says to the white man this is an isolated incident charges ignored by the grand jury. No record he goes on his way.

Black male is taught a lesson to "prevent future" crime. He isn't harshly punished but given, lets say probation, but he is finger printed, and formally charged and he now has a record.

His chances for solid employment for the next 2 or 3 years is going to be shot down the drain due to back ground checks. This is going to put him several years behind due to the fact that he will have to take sub-par jobs until he finds someone to give him a chance.

Example 2.
If you are lucky enough to have been left something in the family a few generations ago, you have might have the abilty to attend college. Two students one white and the other black. White student has parents that are not rich enough to pay for college so he still has to get loans, but they have enough to ensure that the child can focus on school. Meaning that he doesn't have to work and/or can live at home and continue going to school.

The black student has already started working at the age of 15 in order to help with bills and what not around the house. Indeed building a strong work ethic but none the less making it very hard to focus on studies. College time comes around this student still needs to work full time to provide food and shelter and continue to be a full time student. Lets say college is paid for due to grants for being a black student. ( I said I would try to be fair and not extreme).

The white student will have a much easier time, compared to the black student just because of a small difference in one working and one being able to just go to school.

Continued:

I don't want to continue and make people start ranting about how they are white and have it bad. I at no point will say I ever say that these things don't happen to whites. Actually I will say this instead. Over the course of the next 20 years race is going to be less of the issue. It's all about class. Rich and poor. If you can't see that then you are in for a big surprise. Because, the rich will have the good air, the good cars, the good food, the good environment. While, we the poor, will have all the garbage and sewage and crap dumped in our part of the world.

So these are just little differences that come from having a so called head start. Now I understand that whites feel sometimes it's just a matter of hard work.

"My dad worked hard and we made it, that's not my fault".

I say to you don't be so angry, I'm not placing blame. I am asking you to understand that a black man who had to work 2 crappy jobs to make a living. Because this is all he was allowed to have. Can't compete with a white man who has to work one slightly above average job. ( This goes back Generations. Now of course now a black man may have a harder time but can still become a lawyer or doctor or something with a little hard work).

Again notice my language as I am not going to the extreme of comparing how almost all of the wealth 1% are white and how very few of that 1% is black. Or how many CEO's are white compared to black. Or how many people in congress, or any one in leadership roles period are white and how many are black. Or how many blacks are in jail compared to whites.

These are extreme; I just want to paint a picture of two hard working people, families, and students. One with an ever so slight advantage over the other. This comes from a 200+ year head start on life.

"When slavery was still common place, Whites had wealth and slaves had none.

Thats a pretty big head start in life. So what happens is, today you have several generations of blacks that are still trying to catch up. Each set of parents works as hard as possible to leave just a little more to the next generation. But its not even close to what has been left behind to SOME whites. (Stock, Property, Wealth)"

Yes, being born into a family with land and wealth is a really big head start in life. But to make the blanket statement of "Whites had wealth and slaves had none" assumes that ALL white people had wealth, when in reality, few white people had wealth (all men, by the way).

Slavery is one of our country's worst atrocities, but if we're going to talk about "privileges" we can't ignore privileges based on class, wealth, and gender (among others).

So, what we really have is millions of people of ALL races, genders, and classes that are still trying to catch up to those few whites who were wealthy at the time of our contry's founding.

And that's why we see working class whites who are against things like affirmative action. In our capitalist society that creates few winners and many "losers," they too could use a hand up.

And that's why articles like this one are so bothersome- they ignore class privilege, they ignore gender privilege, they ignore every other privliege that isn't based on race. They assume all white people are rich and all black people are poor- and don't consider that maybe all races, genders, etc, of poor people would be better off if we joined together against the rich few (yes, who are mostly white).

To see beyond ones own personal experience, and to try and hear anothers' is the beginning of true compassion.

Again, just because the examples in my life are all I know, doesn't mean that's all there is. This shouldn't invalidate my experience, but it should invalidate the kind of thought process that leads to conclusions like:

"Well, in my life I'm no better off than black people, therefore whites have it as bad as blacks."

In my mind, this is like saying, "Hey! Americans are dying in Iraq too. You can't say that the Iraquis have it worse than Americans!"

It's true that there are people af all races who are oppressed. White privilege is not an "get out of oppression free" card. But (in general) it tends to lessen ones obstacles when in a scrape. But when addressing the issue of colorblindness, we are as a rule, taking all of society into account rather than one's own finite experience. With this in mind, people of color have had, and are having a much rougher go of it in America (to name only one place- what about say....South Africa?). In general. And to not see it, is in essence the very thing we are discussing. White privilege, looks to have something to do with not being able or having to look beyond one's own view of things. Perhaps this is because that perspective - of not having to look beyond ones self -is reinforced.
But people of color are constantly being told they must look beyond their experience if they wish to "accomplish" all that whites have. "Just let it go. You just bring attention to yourself. Why do you always bring race into it? I don't see skin color. Why must you?" Which in effect is blaming the victim - the not so original method of an abuser (she had it coming....). And how nice for the rest of us if we could only stop being reminded of what has happened - what our "founding fathers" did -our history of brutality. This is not guilt. This is simply problem identification. In order to stop brutality, one has to acknowlege that brutality has occured and or is occuring. And in order to move on - to stop the bleeding - one has to attempt reparations. If the boat is leaking, pretending that it is not, and that it never was, not only is denial (blindness), but ultimately, it is not going to save anyone from drowning.

Dear iwarrior-
I don't feel guilty. I feel privileged. Privilege again doesn't mean I'm a king on some mountain. I feel compassion. My compassion is aimed at non-human life as well as human. If you feel oppressed too, it's probably because you are. If you don't think you are oppressed, your expression says otherwise. If you are indeed as underprivileged as people of color (in general), than you are oppressed. If you don't think that's true, perhaps you are repressed as well? This is after all an oppressive culture.
You asked:
"Then how did you end up on the street?"
When I said, "I have lived on the streets. I have eaten out of dumpsters. I am white. Does it follow that because I had it bad, that whites don't have privilege? Of course not."
White privilege doesn't mean nothing bad ever happens to whites. I don't want it sound condescending but really, it seems like a silly point to have to make in this conversation (over and over). The fact that you would persue this line of "reasoning" leads me to suspect that you perhaps are being disingenuous?

Dear starry de cysis-
You said:
"That's white privilege. But if you truly want to walk the walk, give your job, your home, your car, your kid's diminishing opportunities in American life to the minority person, family or organization of choice. Mooning over white privilege is the b.s.'ers way out. The only way to put your money where your mouth is is to pay up. Make your check out to Sean. I'm sure he'll make good use of it."

Well. Ummmm.....who could possibly argue such infallible reasoning as that? As well, it almost sounds as though youd rather not have people discussing this at all. What's to lose by discussion? Besides, that old "walk the walk" argument is at best a false assumption. How do you know who is talking but not walking. And who decides what is genuine "walking"? You? Me? Is your way - to give all ones material possesions away to the poor (sounds vaguely familiar, except for the tone that you are using has very obvious differences than the famous idea you are almost citing) - the only legitimate way of walking?
But at a glance, it actually looks like you are trying to stop discussion on this topic. Why would that be? Is it the old Bill O'reilly "shut up" mentality? Why would anyone wish to stop the discussion of racism and it's effects?

Dear Wilson-
You said:
"They assume all white people are rich and all black people are poor"

Nowhere in the article or in the discussion have I gotten this impression. It seems fallacious to assume this is the intent of this dialogue. Not only did nobody insinuate that all whites are rich etc, but in the end, just like starry de cysis comments, it would seemimgly be an attempt to halt discussion. Is this your intent? Or is it to point that people of color are not the only ones who are oppressed? Surely you don't presume to say that we all think that all white are rich and all blacks are poor?

Yeah it is tough I agree Wilson.

It's hard mostly because when articles like this are started it only focuses on one aspect. Which sometimes you have to do in order to stop those from over looking one aspect and lumping them all in together. I know that it can sometimes be frustrating to try and tell an open minded white person about the struggles that some blacks have to go through with out it getting pushed a side with comments such as well others are having it bad to or not all whites are rich.

These statements are very very true indeed. But sometimes we have to understand that if one person is talking about how say, our food is processed poison and it's full of chemicals. It can really get under a persons skin if the response is, well what about people starving they can't even afford food.

I hope you understand what I mean. I do understand that it's a complex issue. And it's not only black and white. Rich and poor. I just want to point out some points that seem to have popped up in this article and comments in particular.

But what scares me the most is that blacks that are poor usually know they are poor and try to vote for those that might help their situation. (At least Dems. Pretend to be for Social issues). (If they even vote but that's another story).

What I don't understand is why under-employed or un-employed whites who are living in poverty still somehow vote republican every year, when they by no means care or understand the poor white struggle.

It's tough for all us these days. The rich are just running away with the country and we are not left with very much at all.

"But sometimes we have to understand that if one person is talking about how say, our food is processed poison and it's full of chemicals. It can really get under a persons skin if the response is, well what about people starving they can't even afford food."

Good point. That's a real discussion stopper and does nothing to further understanding or explore a topic.

"What I don't understand is why under-employed or un-employed whites who are living in poverty still somehow vote republican every year, when they by no means care or understand the poor white struggle."

This baffles me too. A white woman down the street from me explained to me after 9/11 she just felt she needed to get pregnant and have her fifth child, which she did (the family lives in a two bedroom townhouse like I do, with a make-shift bedroom in the basement). I asked her why she felt that way, and she said she just did; that it seemed a way for her to not let the "terrorists have their way." She has her American flag hanging out along with other patriotic symbols and I believe she has had her sixth child now; homeschooling them all to avoid public school's evil "secularism." Well, that's a bit off topic. Just a head-shaker I guess.

"Not only did nobody insinuate that all whites are rich etc, but in the end, just like starry de cysis comments, it would seemimgly be an attempt to halt discussion. Is this your intent?"

On the contrary. I seek to broaden the discussion.

And yes, I really am insinuating that the discussion assumes that all white people are rich and all black people are poor. You insinuate, "yeah we all know that there's poor white people" but your attitude is "yeah yeah yeah, but it's not as hard as being black." White privilege articles and educated whites lack understanding of what it means to be poor and white in this country.

Futureme- I see your point about focusing on one particular issue so that it's not pushed aside and lost in the larger "group" struggle.

You also said:

"What I don't understand is why under-employed or un-employed whites who are living in poverty still somehow vote republican every year, when they by no means care or understand the poor white struggle."

I DO understand it. That is my background, that is where I'm from. Progressives, liberals, and democrats have thus far failed to educate poor whites about the struggle that we all have in common and instead have let the conservatives divide us all.

How do you tell a poor white single mother raising 3 kids and working 2 jobs, that she has this invisible knapsack of "privileges" and that she has it better than black people.

She may be able to hail a cab whenever she wants, but in HER life, she could neither pay the fare nor pay for the front-row ballgame tickets.

And the progressives, if they are even paying attention to her, are self-righteously telling her that she is privileged. Meanwhile, the conservatives are telling her that affirmative action will give "special" privileges to black people and that gay marriage will give "special" rights to gay people, and so she better vote republican if she wants everyone to remain equal.

Who would you vote for if you were her?

Legitimate or not, working class and poor whites do not want to hear about how privileged they are- because they really don't think they are privileged. And they're certainly not as privileged as white-collar and elite progressives who have the time to debate such things in universities, in magazines, and online discussion boards- all people who shake their heads at the uneducated, redneck poor whites decisions.

Frankly, I see it as the progressive movement's great failing that it hasn't been able to connect with the poor.

Wilson
You say:
"You insinuate, "yeah we all know that there's poor white people" but your attitude is "yeah yeah yeah, but it's not as hard as being black." White privilege articles and educated whites lack understanding of what it means to be poor and white in this country."

I disagree with your interpretation of my statements. I am merely saying that there are, and have been, statistaically speaking, more people of color per capita (as I clearly wrote those two exact words) who have been oppressed than whites. This is a statistical fact. This is no insinuation. Blacks, statistically have had it worse...in sheer numbers. Volume. I am not qualified to give an understanding of what it is like "being black".

I am qualified however, to speak as a white person who has known extreme poverty. I am also qualified as being an "uneducated" white as I have only my G.E.D.(recieved when I was 24 years old) and a few courses in community college to claim as official institutionalized education. I also have a history of alcoholism and drug addiction (ancient history now- 15 yrs!) which doesn't exactly breed an environment of wealth. The people I did drugs, drank, and crimes with? Mostly white guys like me sprinkled with a few mexican americans.The people I recovered with? All shapes and sizes, rich and poor. Most come in the door poor....but not all. Some bottoms are "worse" than others.
Again, assuming you know the experience of those you are in dialogue with can be far reaching.

In any event, the degree of an individual's opression would have to be a more subjective study if one were truly interested in which individual has had it "worse".I know that people of all colors, shapes, and sizes, have had every imaginable form of atrocity committed against them ending finally with their deaths.
I do however, not know of one instance of any white person, who has American ancestry that consists of mainly slaves. Nor do I know of any white americans who have many many family members who were conceived by the act of rape by the slave owners of said oppresive race.I cannot know the effect this has on a person, a family,or an entire culture.

Being told I have privilege isn't comfortable. It also doesn't mean I drive a Benz (93 toyota tercel with 150k miles). It's not telling me that I have a care free life with no problems (bankruptsy,divorce,alcoholism, recovery) . It's telling me that there are some problems I can never understand fully, which makes me want to gain as much understanding as I can, for when I have compassion, and act on it, even though my immediate troubles don't disappear, it definitely gives me perspective of some of the things I tend to take for granted.

p.a.b.- (sorry, I can't in good humor write out your handle)- thank you for insight.

The point of my argument isn't to bicker about "who has it worse." I have already conceded that slavery is one of the worst atrocities the US has committed, the effects of which will be felt for a long time.

What I am arguing is that until progressives/liberals/democrats start appealing to poor/working class whites, this population's vote will continue to go to the republicans. Because, thus far they've failed to educate poor whites about the struggle that we all have in common and instead have let the conservatives divide us all.

I hope I'm not being presumptuos by assuming progressives understand these class issues, with this hyper-awareness of race. Or maybe class is still too taboo to discuss.

I'll hate myself for posting this but I can't resist.

Was he, by any chance, wearing an A's T-shirt?

Dear Wilson-
Yeah that "handle" has caused some pretty humorous responses fer sure.
And thank you for pointing out to me that this is a "progressive" site. Sometimes I forget that mostly because I am no longer self identified with that label.I don't vote. I don't believe in the system anymore. It's not disallusionment. Rather i feel it is clearer vision of other possibilities than the two parties (or perhaps a third as yet to take hold). For the most part, I probably don't really fit into the common understanding of what the dialogue here should consist of. And I know this. But I often forget. Common Dreams was the first source for me to start exploring alternatives to the status quo. At first I was very politically orientated. But then i came to believe that politics is anthropocentrism. It, like racism is another form of elitism, but instead puts humans as the pinnacle of all life. And god we are enamored with ouselves. It's really quite boring actually.And what about the natural world? You know.....non-human life? Recently, the "progressive" view has started to encompass environmental issues more and more. And of course, thanks to Al Gore, green is in vogue. So I check in alot mainly to read the environmental articles. But race is an issue that I have started learning about as well, so it always piques my interest. The elitist mindset is of interest as I am always looking for ways to level the scales. If we can start seeing the pecking orders we create and how non sensical they are, perhaps they can be taken down? I dunno. Anyways...really, thanks for reminding me where I am....a progressive site. There are certain assumptions and constraints that I am not accustomed to operating within here.

It should be no wonder that many times people assume that I am some white collar guy who is trying to decide which democrat to vote for in the next election.

Sorry. Not me.

Thank you

-Punk

Gonsalves: "As conservative cultural critic (and jazz scholar) Stanley Crouch astutely observed, when a black person commits a crime, it's a comment on race. When a white person commits a crime it's a comment on society or that one individual alone."

"Stereotypes persist," a sociology professor taught me, "because they are not refuted by evidence." If a bigot argues that "blacks are lazy" or "blacks are ignorant," citing myriad examples of hard work and brilliance that resulted in black achievement will not change his mind. The stereotype is a psychological comfort to him, a device that anchors his (imagined) superiority, and he will not give it up lightly. Every example cited will be discounted as "an exception to the rule," with the result being that the "rule" is reinforced and remains intact. And so it goes.

Gonsalves: "If America is ever going to have a meaningful inter-racial conversation about the legacy of white supremacy and its impact on present day political and economic conditions, then we've got to have mental dexterity to keep track of some important distinctions.

That's a tall order in these times when you can be accused of being a 'black racist bigot' for simply daring to question the new PC - 'color blindness.'"

The Roberts Supreme Court, exhibiting "color blindness" at its worst, struck down the Seattle school desegration plan either because they lacked the mental dexterity to distinguish between benign and invidious racial discrimination, or because they chose to ignore the distinction out of a willful blindness.

"People who believe in the idea of white privilege wittingly or not encourage self-loathing amongst whites and encourages blacks to resent whites."

Although I have no argument with many other things Iwarrrior has written here and really appreciate her/his point of view, I don't agree with that particular statement.

And nor can I see how Gonslaves' essay could encourage self-loathing among whites or encourages blacks to resent whites. Btw, I certainly don't take that as SG's intent either.

For me, here's the gist of his message:

----One of several problems with using a catch-all word like "racism" is that many white brothers and sisters see it in terms of individual bigotry and hatred. Unless there's KKK or Nazi insignia involved, there's no racism. That's focusing on intent - what's in an individual's heart.

But for those on the receiving end it's all about effect. (Actually, focusing on intentions while ignoring effect is one of this great nation's most glaring moral shortcomings, blinding millions to seeing, for example, why it's absurd to think Iraqis, or any proud people, would be grateful for being "liberated" by a foreign invader and occupier. If you're family were "collateral damage" in a war of "liberation," I doubt lofty rhetoric about good intentions and democracy would salve your wounds. But I digress).

Race is a social phenomenon that's bigger than the individual. It operates on a group-think level.

What if my baseball buddy hadn't shared that cab with me? That wouldn't make him a racist but it would mean he was cashing-in on white-skin privilege - the privilege of not having to pay a racial tax for the criminal behavior of a few who happen to share the same skin color." --

Imo, that last paragraph (copied above) is precisely the point/essence of this essay.

I simply don't see/read the essay as a blanket condemnation of all white people. Why is it that some people seem to read/see it that way?

I believe that I see it for what it is, an attempt to raise awareness of the widespread but often invisible phenomenon of white privilege. A phenomenon which exists, and which needs to be openly discussed.

Also, I don't happen to "believe" in the idea of white privilege. White supremacists do. I actually believe that the fact/phenomenon of white privilege (still) exists. Why? Because I too have experienced it, and witnessed it first hand on numerous occasions. As well as having read about it countless other times, btw.

Discussing/debating white privilege does not make me squirm, feel guilty, or self-loathing. Nor should it.

No individual should feel guilty, nor think that they're supposed to feel guilty for the actions of others, including any ancestor of theirs. Neither do I think that is the point of the essay, nor the point of this discussion.

In any case, this is a worthwhile discussion which I'll continue to read with interest.

Thanks all,

Ok, I was REALLLLLLY reluctant to come back to this thread at this point. I almost was going to let it die off, but I just couldn't do it. I was thinking about this at work all day. And like I am apt to do, I forgot half the things I wanted to say. I need to carry a notepad.

"Perhaps a better word would by "sympathy." ??? and more ?. I think, in certain circumstances, if I were a black person in today's America I would go off my frick'n rocker. If I were pulled over for the shade of my skin I would go f'n ballistic. And guess what? — I'd probably be shot for it. And that really sucks."

Lpenek I agree with you. I'm already going off my rocker, and I'm white. I'm not suggesting that black people don't have a right to be angry. I think most people in this country have a right to be angry. Hell, if you're not angry or at least concerned (I know I talked about letting go of anger in another thread, hey I'm not perfect), you need to turn off the TV!

I know black people get it bad. How do you people think that I was a white man felt about Johnny Gammage getting killed by a bunch of white cops for no good reason, and that's not the only time it's happened in our city? How do you guys think I felt when I read about that garbage going down in Jena?

There are times I want to go off on whites just like Chris Rock has done on blacks. I do.

How is it privilege when my heart drops into my stomach when I see a black person come to my place of work to buy something, knowing how much racism is there?

How is it privilege when I have been threatened for telling racist whites to knock it off with their nonsense and to have some solidarity with them? is it privilege for me to be threatened with violence? o go to management about it and then be treated like a pariah for being a rat or for at least scratching out racist graffitti?

How is it privilege when I lie awake at night sometimes thinking to myself that we all have every reason in the world to hate one another?

How is it privilege when I'm worrying about whether or not I'm going to have a job next week? Wondering if I can afford an attorney if and when I get fired if the crap really hits the fan? Being happy that I finally got a job after being unemployed for 18 months only to discover very quickly that I was working with a bunch of trogolodytes and that I couldn't then and can't afford now to quit? Wondering if I am ever going to get out of there and get a better job? Knowing that I have to work sick and hurting because I can't afford to miss a day?

Is it a privilege being 17 grand in debt? Only having 60 bucks in my savings? Waking up this morning to a nasty thunderstorm and running around putting buckets in place to catch the drips? Feeling that most women look down their noses on me for not having a car or a home of my own or a degree or a career?

Yes there are times when I can't blame the black guy for thinking me to be a demon from hell bent on his misery.

Yes there are times when I can't blame the white guy for thinking black people all hate and want to hurt him.

Yes there are times I can't blame the Israeli for wanting to bomb the Arab and the Arab for wanting to behead the Westerner.

How was it privilege for me to be reading a recent headline about nonwhites becoming the majority, and then reading a bunch of posts following it saying essentially that they hope that whites become akin to jews in Nazi Germany?

How is it privileged to be sitting with my elderly aunt and uncle in their integrated urban neighborhood, talking to them about why I like living in the city and how I couldn't adapt to country living only to see shortly after that, a bunch of police both black and white chasing a young armed black man through their backyard. And then hearing gunfire!

They moved to the country shortly after that. And they lived in that neighborhood for over 20 years. They were scared. And they're in debt already.

How is that privilege for me? Wrestling with all of that everyday?

Maybe some people can ignore that. Maybe some people can go watch John Stossel so that he can tell them "Give Me A Break!" in regards to it all.

I can't. Especially when I'm not doing well myself.

Hey, I'm being honest here.

Hell, there are times when I think that the relationship between blacks and whites is like a bad marriage, and that perhaps we should split up. Follow the NOI's plan of giving ten states to blacks, and just leave each other alone.

I have black people that live on my street. How is it privilege wondering about how they are treated? Hoping, praying that some white idiot doesn't do something to them and that we all end up on the local newspaper.

"HATE CRIME IN BROOKLINE!"

Eh boy.

I know how people can be. I know how white people can be and I know how black people can be. Racism feeds on itself,and people from all sides throw firebombs and pee on the radiator. The hardest people to turn are those who have had bad experiences with people of other races. Not everyone is big enough to forgive or at least see that we're not all monoliths.

Yeah, I can see why black people get angry at whites, even though it bothers me when I do. But at times I can also see why whites get angry at and fearful of blacks.

I want that anger to end. I'm tired of people scapegoating one another. Especially when there are those above who delight and count on it.

I think it's obscene when the affluent white guy blames black welfare recipients for stealing his income via taxation. It insinuates that the black welfare recipient is sticking it to the affluent white guy by refusing to work and that his/her lack of employment is entirely his or her fault.

But I also think it's obscene when blacks who are financially better off and are in more interesting lines of work than I tell me that I am more "privileged" than they are. It insinuates that I as a white man thoroughly deserve to be working in a lousy job that barely makes ends meet. After all. I am a white man. It's easier for me. That black person must be extraordinary and I must be a complete loser.

I'm not denying that black people experience different things than whites do or similar things but moreso than whites. I worked in a dept store once and remember a white female employee (who was making about 5 bucks an hour like I was) telling me that she was spying on two black males because she thought they were gonna steal something. I told our manager about it, and he had a little talk to her about it. And of course I got dirty stares from her the rest of them time I worked there. Then I remember overhearing her calling me a "n-word lover". Meanwhile this girl would listen to Sal N Pepa on her breaks while I preferred Black Sabbath (there everyone can really dump on me now).

But I also know that my experiences with blacks haven't been entirely rosy either. I can remember being in high school watching some sort of musical presentation put on by students. The people on stage were all girls, all black except for one white girl. I can remember a black girl sitting behind me loudly proclaiming that "white girl has no clout up there".

I remember being on a PAT bus with a friend during my high school years who was white and not being able to wait to get off since two black adults were sitting in the back talking loudly about how much they wanted to shoot whites and Asians.

My sister who went to a different but also mostly black high school recalls black kids throwing tomatoes at white classmates during a talent contest while the faculty, mostly white and suburban did nothing.

Then shortly after that I read a story in my local newspaper about an incident at a white high school in my area where a video was shown at the school about homelessness. The class president who was white reported that white kids would boo and throw things at the screen whenever a black face came up on the screen.

I know it cuts all different ways. I've seen it. I have experienced it.

We have an issue in our city schools about an "achievement gap" between blacks and whites and how to rectify it. Meanwhile, studies have shown that all of the students are getting subpar educations. They aren't being prepared for college. I know they didn't prepare me or my sister. They knew they weren't at the time. Unless you were a "high achiever" or upper class white or black, our counselors gave us pamphlets for Community College and sent us on our way. They're all getting the shaft. Maybe some more than others, but they're all getting it. Except maybe those with money, and people with money are the only truly privileged people I have ever known.

I know I'm rambling, and I'm not going to bother with the other posts because it'll just go on and on, and I don't think I'm going to convince anyone. I'm not ducking anyone. I'm just tired of being angry and writing makeshift theses while the world burns.

Whatever lambaste what I'm saying. Tell me that I'm irresponsible, foolish, complicit in racist oppression because I won't admit to being an oppressor. I must also be complicit because I'm an American (sans "KKK", that's SO old hat) or male or heterosexual or have faith in a higher power or eat meat. Throw the book at me.

But despite all of that I'll continue to try and do the right thing. I will vote for the right people. Heck, I may even run myself for something. If I do I'll be favoring people alright. Working and poor people of all hues. Identity politics will not be my game, and if that doesn't endear me to certain folks, then so be it.